Readers’ Responses to Our Question (153)

A MAN once asked Jesus: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" Did Jesus say: 'Just accept me as your Lord and Savior, and you will be saved'? No! Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."—Luke 13:23, 24.
Jesus indicated that fewer people than one might expect would exert themselves vigorously to receive this marvelous blessing.
'That's not what I was told,' some may protest. These may quote John 3:16, which says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (King James Version) However, 'What, then, must we believe? That Jesus actually lived? Of course. That he is the Son of God? By all means! And since the Bible calls Jesus "Teacher" and "Lord," must we not also believe what he taught, obey him, and follow him?'—John 13:13; Matthew 16:16.
Many people who have been told that they are "saved" seem to have little intention of either following or obeying Jesus. In fact, a Protestant clergyman wrote: "Of course, our faith in Christ should continue. But the claim that it absolutely must, or necessarily does, has no support at all in the Bible."
On the contrary, the Bible lists immoral practices that are common among some people who think that they are "saved." Regarding one who continued in such ways, it instructed Christians: "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." Surely God would not want wicked people contaminating his Christian congregation!—1 Corinthians 5:11-13.
What does it mean, then, to follow Jesus, and how can we do that? Well, what did Jesus do? Was he immoral? a fornicator? a drunkard? a liar? Was he dishonest in business? Of course not! 'But,' you may ask, 'do I have to clean all those things out of my life?' For the answer, consider Ephesians 4:17 through 5:5. It does not say that God will accept us no matter what we do. Instead, it tells us to be different from the worldly nations who have "come to be past all moral sense, . . . but you did not learn the Christ to be so . . . Put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct . . . Let the stealer steal no more . . . Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as it befits holy people . . . For you know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person—which means being an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God."
Are we following Jesus if we do not at least try to live in harmony with his example? Do we not have to work on making our lives more Christlike? That vital question is rarely, if ever, considered by people who say, as one religious tract does: "Come to Christ now—just as you are."
One of Jesus' disciples warned that ungodly men were "turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) How might we, in fact, turn God's mercy "into an excuse for loose conduct"? We could do so by assuming that Christ's sacrifice covers deliberate sins that we intend to keep on committing rather than sins of human imperfection that we are trying to put behind us. Surely we would not want to agree with one of America's best-known evangelists, who said that you do not have to "clean up, give up, or turn around."—Contrast Acts 17:30; Romans 3:25; James 5:19, 20.
Many people have been told that "believing on Jesus" is a single act and that our faith does not have to be strong enough to prompt obedience. But the Bible disagrees. Jesus did not say that people who begin the Christian course are saved. Instead, he said: "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew 10:22) The Bible likens our Christian course to a race, with salvation being the prize at its end. And it urges: "Run in such a way that you may attain it."—1 Corinthians 9:24.
Thus, "accepting Christ" involves far more than just accepting the blessings that Jesus' superlative sacrifice offers. Obedience is required. The apostle Peter says that judgment starts "with the house of God," and adds: "Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?" (1 Peter 4:17) So we must do more than simply hear and believe. The Bible says that we must "become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving [ourselves] with false reasoning."—James 1:22.
The Bible book of Revelation contains messages from Jesus, transmitted through John to seven early Christian congregations. (Revelation 1:1, 4) Did Jesus say that since the people in these congregations had already "accepted" him that was sufficient? No. He praised their deeds, their labor and their endurance and spoke of their love, faith, and ministry. But he said that the Devil would put them to the test and that they would be rewarded "individually according to [their] deeds."—Revelation 2:2, 10, 19, 23.
Thus Jesus described a far greater commitment than most people have understood when they were told that their salvation was a "finished work" as soon as they "accepted" him at a religious meeting. Jesus said: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."—Matthew 16:24, 25.
Disown ourselves? Follow Jesus continually? That would require effort. It would change our lives. Yet, did Jesus really say that some of us might even have to 'lose our souls'—to die for him? Yes, that kind of faith comes only with knowledge of the magnificent things you can learn from studying God's Word. It was evident on the day Stephen was stoned by religious fanatics who "could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking." (Acts 6:8-12; 7:57-60) And such faith has been demonstrated in our time by the hundreds who died in Nazi concentration camps rather than violate their Bible-trained consciences.
Salvation is a free gift from God. It cannot be earned. Yet it does require effort on our part. How valuable is the lifeblood of Jesus Christ? It is a free gift, but we must demonstrate deep appreciation for it.
True Christians are in a saved condition in that they are in an approved position before God. As a group, their salvation is sure. Individually, they must meet God's requirements. However, we can fail, for Jesus said: "If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up."—John 15:6.
We do not earn salvation, for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do. Without works to demonstrate our faith, our claim to follow Jesus would fall far short, for the Bible clearly states: "Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."—James 2:17.

Deanna:

You said:

For many, many years, I did not/could not grasp the significance of Christ's crucifixion because I always thought, "Yes, but He was God, so he didn't really suffer." Then I experienced the true horror and meaning of the crucifixion -- and I finally understood.

My reply:
Holy Week is pivital to the foundation of my beief, and it is an emotional experience for me. But - and this is strange - I did not truly understand the pain of our Lord's sacrifice until I saw 'The Passion of the Christ'. I have seen many brutal movies, but this - this - made me turn away, choking and in tears. It still haunts me.

You also said:

However, the peace and joy which comes from understanding and receiving God's unconditional love leads us to love others -- and do good deeds.

In humble reply, I offer you this:

THE WORD

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD

Reach out your arms and hug a friend,
Go praise a child, greet a stranger.
Now go outside and touch a tree
Smell a flower, hear the bird’s song.
In these places you find the Word
And you will know it is God's love.

AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD

Open your heart - to your surprise
You now will find God is with you.
The shock and joy will make you weep.
You will know then that God is love
Let him inside, You soon will know
You are with Him for eternity.

AND THE WORD WAS GOD

With tears of joy, you now will find
He’s been with you all of your life
If you had only bothered to look
You would have found that He was there
With perfect love. Give Him great praise!
And love your God and your neighbor!

Amen.

Deanna:

You said:

For many, many years, I did not/could not grasp the significance of Christ's crucifixion because I always thought, "Yes, but He was God, so he didn't really suffer." Then I experienced the true horror and meaning of the crucifixion -- and I finally understood.

My reply:
Holy Week is pivital to the foundation of my beief, and it is an emotional experience for me. But - and this is strange - I did not truly understand the pain of our Lord's sacrifice until I saw 'The Passion of the Christ'. I have seen many brutal movies, but this - this - made me turn away, choking and in tears. It still haunts me.

You also said:

However, the peace and joy which comes from understanding and receiving God's unconditional love leads us to love others -- and do good deeds.

In humble reply, I offer you this:

THE WORD

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD

Reach out your arms and hug a friend,
Go praise a child, greet a stranger.
Now go outside and touch a tree
Smell a flower, hear the bird’s song.
In these places you find the Word
And you will know it is God's love.

AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD

Open your heart - to your surprise
You now will find God is with you.
The shock and joy will make you weep.
You will know then that God is love
Let him inside, You soon will know
You are with Him for eternity.

AND THE WORD WAS GOD

With tears of joy, you now will find
He’s been with you all of your life
If you had only bothered to look
You would have found that He was there
With perfect love. Give Him great praise!
And love your God and your neighbor!

Amen.

Deanna,

Very well put. I'm so glad you have a true understanding of the sacrifice that Jesus had for us. I'm so very glad to hear that you are saved. I think you would make a great apologetic. Keep up the good work that Christ does through you. God bless

In Christ
David

Daniel:

You say, "A deep problem with Christianity is that we can now imagine--and perhaps always could--a figure greater than Christ. We are told Christ was God come to earth to suffer for the sins of man--to take sin upon himself and open the gates of heaven for man's salvation. But how could Christ have suffered being God?"

For many, many years, I did not/could not grasp the significance of Christ's crucifixion because I always thought, "Yes, but He was God, so he didn't really suffer." Then I experienced the true horror and meaning of the crucifixion -- and I finally understood.

The Christ of the passion, although He remained divine, CHOSE to set aside his divinity to suffer and die as a human! His death was a fulfillment of the law of the Old Testament which decreed death as the punishment for many sins. He paid the price as required by OT law -- and he paid it for us all. He was also the fulfillment of the prophets of the savior who would set the captives free. Because of His death, we are no longer bound by sin. If we repent and confess our sinfulness [not an easy thing to do], our souls are washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Did you ever wonder about those passages from the gospels about observers at the crucifixion?
"Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, 'So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, come down from the cross and save yourself!' In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. 'He saved others,' they said, ' but he can't save himself. Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe.'" Mark 15:29-31.

Those people had a very valid point. If you are who you say you are, then save yourself. BUT HE DIDN'T!!! Why?!! Because if He climbed down from the cross, He would no longer be experiencing the pain and agony of death by crucifixion. And He would not have died, so the stain of sin would remain, as would the debt to the OT.

As for faith v. good works, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 3:22-23 It is only by the grace of God that we believe and have faith. One cannot "earn" one's way into eternal life by doing good. However, the peace and joy which comes from understanding and receiving God's unconditional love leads us to love others -- and do good deeds.

Is beheading someone considered a good work?

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597 - St. John of the Cross.

krozmibc zfnejyod nromi hlxde klhqrdw ghewjd amzq

krozmibc zfnejyod nromi hlxde klhqrdw ghewjd amzq

As I see the debate, there are only 3 possibilities:

1)Works only will get you saved
2)A combination of works and faith will get you saved
3)Faith alone will save you

As to the first of these arguments, if you only had to work to be saved then Christ did not have to die. It would only be a matter of working off the debt. This absolutely goes against Scripture as one person already has stated. And also, “…for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Gal 2:21)” So this is not a solution.

Number 2 seems to be the one that almost all would agree that seems most plausible. But is it? To uncover whether this statement is false, all that needs to be done is to find one instance of faith and no works. Let us take as our example an atheist on his deathbed reaching out to Christ in faith. He had no chance of doing good works but Christ would never dismiss an honest confession prompted by faith. Is this too much of straw man’s argument? Let us take the thief on the cross who cried "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. (Luke 23:42)” Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)" This man, also, had no opportunity to do good works, though I have no doubt he would have given the chance.

That is at least one argument that refutes number 2 and therefore leaves number 3 as the only viable alternative.

Last but certainly not least, faith alone. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent. (John 6:29)" God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:25-26)

It is all about justification. Can you justify yourself? Does your righteousness count? Then you can’t save yourself! You take your life’s work of good deeds and put that up against the precious blood of Christ (as in cases 1 and 2) and see how it foolish it looks! If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. (Rom 4:2-3)"

Unfortunately, most people do not see that, logically, one must come before the other. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. (1 Cor 3:11-13) The foundation has been laid (faith in Christ) upon which we build (works).

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) God prepared these things beforehand, not to merit salvation but to glorify Him. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. (Eph 2:8)

Lepido:

Glad you like the abbreviated name! :) Sounds sleek and cool.

**I think that anyone who commits such acts must be insane. Mentally stable, secure people do not have a desire to hurt others.**

But mentally stable, secure people do hurt others, everyday. They don't always intend to, and certainly they most often regret it afterwards. However, placed in a situation where one feels helpless, backed into a corner... even the most mentally stable and secure will do what they deem necessary to protect what they value.

**I didn't say that "just following orders" excused them. If that seemed implied, please forgive me. We run into the same issues with our own armed forces. If your CO gives you an order that you know is wrong to follow, what do you do? How far can an individual follow his/her own conscience within a military structure?**

Post-Vietnam, the US military has invested a great deal in the ethical training of its forces. We probably spend more on that sort of training than any nation on earth. Our soldiers are more PREPARED to refuse to obey an illegal order than any soldiers in the history of the world, and yet Abu Ghraib still happens. When the commitment of one or two to do good is pitted against the 'powers that be' that are intent on evil, the result is usually futile or fatal for the powerless.

**I never said that "What is, is right." In fact, I said that when one harms others, one also harms oneself, so it is in one's own best interests to behave well. While the Enron guys did not hurt themselves financially the way they did the people whose retirement funds they depleted, their actions harmed the community, and harm to the community affects all within it. Unfortunately, some feel the effects much more immediately than others.**

But in a community of 6 billion, Lepido, in a complexly broken cosmos, what action does not harm someone? Who has the wisdom to plumb the depths of such complexity?
Furthermore, how is it in one's own best interests to behave well? That is an assertion that cannot be proven. Serving the best interests of the community is only in one's own best interests if one values the life of the community over the life of an individual member of the community. And that may lead to the situation where the best interests of the community will expect me to surrender my best interests. In a community where life is temporary and furtherance of that life is the highest value, how can one expect someone to surrender that which they value highest for the sake of the community? And in a community where quality of life is valued over quantity, how can one expect another to ignore their own ambition when the community cannot even define 'quality'?

**We invaded Iraq to better our economy and improve our standard of living? **

From at least 3 different points of view, certainly that is the case.

1) Weakening global terrorism improves the American standard of living. IF (big IF) we invaded Iraq to establish democracy and cut off funding for global terror, then our standard of living will be improved.

2) Establishing long-term command and control over the Iraqi oilfields would give us greater access to fossil fuels, which clearly would improve both our standard of living and our economy on a short-term basis.

3) Establishing an American Empire abroad would clearly improve our standard of living and economy here in the US proper. The economies of Rome and Great Britain exploded when they established worldwide imperial interests.

**If there were a global commitment to "play nice," then that would pretty much eliminate evil, now wouldn't it?**

If every entity in the cosmos signed on, that would certainly give it a better shot. Good luck with that. Since most people who hold to your arguments deny the very existence of a lot of entities in the cosmos, you're up against a category challenge right from the start. Furthermore, even those most committed to "playing nice" fail. In fact, it is those who are most committed to it that truly recognize how poorly they perform at it. Not to mention that those who have the guns are going to be the hardest to convince that "playing nice" works better than tyranny.

Your optimistic philosophy deals works only under ideal circumstances. It does not answers the questions and problems that face us in the world in which we actually live.

Respectfully,
Nick Gill
Frankfort, KY

Falan:
**Hitler was insane? That remains to be proven. Does that mean that all "evil-doers" are insane, or only those who practice high-volume evil?
Was Stalin insane, too? He executed way more than Hitler did.
Pol Pot has been mentioned on this list. Was he insane, too?**

I think that anyone who commits such acts must be insane. Mentally stable, secure people do not have a desire to hurt others.

**So, if my boss is crazy, I don't have to "always do the right thing?" Boy, this is really getting complicated.**

I didn't say that "just following orders" excused them. If that seemed implied, please forgive me. We run into the same issues with our own armed forces. If your CO gives you an order that you know is wrong to follow, what do you do? How far can an individual follow his/her own conscience within a military structure?

**And how, in your paradigm, did the Enron guys harm themselves? How does the paradigm being encouraged by Athena and Lepido differ from the "Whatever is, is right" affirmation of the Marquis de Sade?**

Lepido - I like that - sounds kind of sexy when you say it aloud. I never said that "What is, is right." In fact, I said that when one harms others, one also harms oneself, so it is in one's own best interests to behave well. While the Enorn guys did not hurt themselves financially the way they did the people whose retirement funds they depleted, their actions harmed the community, and harm to the community affects all within it. Unfortunately, some feel the effects much more immediately than others.

**Most wars are fought because nations with great power feel a great responsibility to develop better economies and standards of living for themselves.**

We invaded Iraq to better our economy and improve our standard of living?

**Good and evil are a little more complex than "I'm okay, you're okay... let's all play nice now." However, I'm not surprised that a quoter of Spike Lee, one of the great American propagandists of the 20th century, might not notice that the universe isn't just black and white.**

If there were a global commitment to "play nice," then that would pretty much eliminate evil, now wouldn't it?

Hitler was insane? That remains to be proven. Does that mean that all "evil-doers" are insane, or only those who practice high-volume evil?

Was Stalin insane, too? He executed way more than Hitler did.

Pol Pot has been mentioned on this list. Was he insane, too?

So, if my boss is crazy, I don't have to "always do the right thing?" Boy, this is really getting complicated.

And how, in your paradigm, did the Enron guys harm themselves? How does the paradigm being encouraged by Athena and Lepido differ from the "Whatever is, is right" affirmation of the Marquis de Sade?

Most wars are fought because nations with great power feel a great responsibility to develop better economies and standards of living for themselves.

Good and evil are a little more complex than "I'm okay, you're okay... let's all play nice now." However, I'm not surprised that a quoter of Spike Lee, one of the great American propagandists of the 20th century, might not notice that the universe isn't just black and white.

All--

The argument of many seems to be that "it's good to do good", and that faith doesn't matter.

While it's hard to argue against any such solipsism as that of Wiccan (below), in which each person gets to decide what's right for himself, because of the lack of substance giving on to lack of traction, it's even harder to argue against such truisms as that above--and to try to do so is to fall into the trap laid, for whether "doing good is good" is not at issue. All agree on it. No points for either/any side.

The relationship between faith and good works in Christian is so intrinsically complex that it should be unsurprising that attempts to dissect it and discuss it lead often to disagreement and rancor. But it should also lead one to realize that drawing conclusions base upon any single, simple "fact" observed in that relationship is likely to be at best woefully incomplete and potentially seriously damaging.

That discussions like this inevitably bring out those who wish to attack some other group seems to simply be how the world works at this time--which in itself says quite a bit. I tire of the fatuous, disingenuous, misleading, and manipulative. No one wins a convert by force, though perhaps broad, superficial, meaningless similarities can be imposed.

I hope and pray that those who wish to find here civil, reasoned discourse can do so, and that those who, looking into their hearts, find anger and hate, can soon find these replaced by love and understanding, and participate in the forum in a different manner.

All of us succumb occasionally to the temptations of pride and vanity dressed in a quick tongue, but we need to remember that an adept tongue is like well-coiffed hair--it is attractive, and may help in getting others (generally of like mind) to listen, but does not in the end mean that one has anything to say, or that those whom one wishes to persuade will find what is said more persuasive than offensive.

There. I've said what I can today. Now I shall return to Boy Scout camp.

May God bless all.

AMY--

I was saddened to see that you Christianity as "doing what you please", followed by a "tearful witness" to "wild-eyed morons".

I'm not sure that I believe that you really think that Christian teaching is as you describe, but I fear that perhaps you do consider most of us to be "wild-eyed morons", and if that is true, it shall certainly reduce the likelihood that you shall listen seriously and respectfully to those who are Christians and cherish their relationships with God--you've greatly diminished the possibilities of civil discourse between us.

It seems to me that your description of Christian faith, coupled with a needless swipe at an unpopular president intended, it seems, to drench all Christians with the stench of derision and unpopularity, makes your post into more of an attack on people than anything that resembles reasonable discussion.

I hope that you might soon have the opportunity to discuss Christian teaching with a well-trained minister, that you may better understand basic Christian tenets. I think that might enable a new beginning in a more productive manner.

Ahmed--

Thank you for your kind response. I am sorry I did not acknowledge it sooner; I was out at Boy Scout camp with my son and his troop for a few days. (And there I shall return later today.)

It was of course pleasantly refreshing to read your post in reply. I'm glad to see that we are able, in some small way, to share a bit of God's love. I hope that such remains the case forever.

Peace and grace,

Perry Clark

Falan:
**Do you really think Hitler thought he was "doing the wrong thing" when he sent 12 million Europeans to death-camps?**

Hitler was insane. I have no doubt that Athena was referring to actions undertaken by sane people.

**Do you really think each individual act of evil that went along with the Holocaust was done by people intentionally "doing the wrong thing?"**

Leadership by the insane, especially when it comes along at a time of crisis, often leads to bad behvior by those being led.

**Do you think Ken Lay and the rest of the Enron crooks really thought they were doing something WRONG? Not illegal... they knew it was illegal. Did they really think it was wrong?**

I believe they knew that it was wrong, but just didn't care as long as they got what they wanted. It's unfortunate that some people can't see that in doing wrong to others, they ultimately harm themsselves.

**The United States is embroiled in battle in Iraq because of Stan Lee's beautiful philosophical contribution to the 20th and 21st centuries.**

Spiderman invaded Iraq? Which issue was that?

**In fact, most wars fought in the last 200 years were fought on the basis of that principle.**

Most wars are fought over real estate and mineral deposits.

**Jesus of Nazareth is still the only human who ever lived to completely model the true path of responsibility and humanness.**

He was one man who did provide a good role model. There have been many other men and women who have provided examples of altruistic living.

Namaste.

Athena:

Do you really think Hitler thought he was "doing the wrong thing" when he sent 12 million Europeans to death-camps? Do you really think each individual act of evil that went along with the Holocaust was done by people intentionally "doing the wrong thing?" Do you think Ken Lay and the rest of the Enron crooks really thought they were doing something WRONG? Not illegal... they knew it was illegal. Did they really think it was wrong? Most people, most of the time, think they ARE "doing the right thing" regardless of what they are actually DOING!

The United States is embroiled in battle in Iraq because of Stan Lee's beautiful philosophical contribution to the 20th and 21st centuries. In fact, most wars fought in the last 200 years were fought on the basis of that principle.

Jesus of Nazareth is still the only human who ever lived to completely model the true path of responsibility and humanness.

in HIS love,
Nick

Jihadist,

How goes that support of global religious freedom?

It's not necessary to believe in God or Gods to do good deeds. People of faith don't have a lock on charity - nor are atheists as selfish and craven as some would lead their congregations to believe. Two great modern philosophers - both with the last name of Lee - said it best. "Always do the right thing." (Spike Lee) and "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stan Lee) Both are moral codes which anyone can follow, regardless of belief in a Higher Power.

What would we do without religion. I am a 74 year old Catholic with a strong foundation in my faith through primary and secondary education who has grown more and more sceptical regarding scripture, especially the "old Testament". It is not necessary to have faith in order to do good works nor is having faith a prerequisite to doing good works. Even without faith or a belief in God or the hereafter one would want to do what is right. It is hard wired into we human beings. Unfortunately religions often distort what is right or wrong. Since I was a teenager I often observed that religion was always in some way involved in the troubles of the world throughout history. I believe we would all be better off without organized religion because without faith it is meaningless and as one grows older and begins to read about religions and question them faith becomes virtually impossible. Read Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion which is more of a mocking diatribe as a start and then read Christopher Hitchen's GOD IS NOT GREAT which I couldn't put down, particularly the chapters on the O.T and the N.T. and you will need a strong faith. Bottom line, the answer to your question is that good works far exceed faith in importance.

Mary Cunningham

Thank you for your post.

I can understand how you feel when you stated -

"It hasn’t been agreeable to be Catholic in England for much of the time I’ve lived here. Until the mid-1980s and Cardinal Hume, there was a very nasty undercurrent of English anti-Catholic prejudice.. Catholics were assumed to be both Irish and disloyal. The IRA bombings didn’t help!"

I started college in the UK just when the Salman Rushdie controversy happened. My female Muslim college mates who had headscarves on were taunted when we visited London once. One drunken lout even tried to pull the scarf off one of my friend's head. She was deeply shaken, but recovered gracefully, and never spoke of it since.

Best regards

Let's unite our disparate beliefs,
call them humanity,
good and evil,
knowing and unknowing,
the greatest blessing,
what a song to sing!

Concerned,

you said

(The OT time line has the creation of Adam at 6000 years ago).

According to Ussher's chronology. But unfortunately Ussher's chronology has been misleading people for a very long time. I suggest you do the research on the hebrew word "yom" or spelled "yowm" as well. It means "day" in english. Not just a 24 hour day, but also meaning day as in a long period of time, ex: "day of the Lord". Not necessarily a 24 hour period, but an unlimited amount of time. I'll let you do the research since it seems you do a lot of reading and study.

EEEWWUUU! I'm so, like, blessed. Paris Hilton has gound God and is going to heaven and since I do good works and stuff, I'll see her there. I hope our white robes aren't like, polyester.

Mary C,

A couple of comments:

B16's book is simply a NT "rehash". If it contained anything new, it would be global news. No global news since its publication, therefore, more NT "rehash".

A better book with nothing missing with respect to the NT is Father Raymond Brown's, An Introduction to the New Testament. (twice the size at half the price?) No doubt B16 got a lot of his material from Father Brown's books.

The approximate location/age of the real Adam has been found via the National Geographic's Genographic project.

An excerpt:

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ Miracles

" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.

"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time. (The OT time line has the creation of Adam at 6000 years ago).

Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.

It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Check the associated maps on the Genographic site and you might be able to determine what tree your tribe came/fell from.

I have a strong feeling that God prefers good deeds done for their own sake and not because we "have to" or we're "buying" our way into heaven.

ya'll need to cut this out. i am cracking up, this is better than watching TBN. "you know this and well jesus said that...god wants this" hey send me some money

ya'll need to cut this out. i am cracking up, this is better than watching TBN. "you know this and well jesus said that...god wants this" hey send me some money

It's difficult for me to accept that people make money and waste time with religion. It is beyond belief. I mean with all the information out there, say like the historical doc's;council of nicea and the various fields of science you all ignore it and just smile and carry on about what?? being saved? like in a freezer or something.

You really believe that some white man in a white robe is going to come down and take us somewhere? Bible this and bible that...people take money from their pockets, which could be used in some more meaningful aspect of tehir lives, and give it to you people WOOOOW. I gotta say though, i'm all for giving credit where and when it's do, the olnly thing ya'll are missing are zoot suits and great big Cadillac’s. It's a tribute to your powers of persuasion, from birth you brainwash people into denying reality, what truly is to follow you. I'm African American and i have to give it to ya'll, we were stolen brought here and hundreds of years later we as descendants have turned our backs on our culture and our people to believe in a jesus, god and a holy spirit. It's automatic, get up sunday, go to church, wednesday bible study. All this from a people that that lived in South and West Africa.

No god is coming to take us anywhere no Devil awaits us in hell. So much the better though you should fool people ignorance is indeed blissful.

Sorry candide those who believe they are saved by their works behave in no wise the same as those who believe they received salvation as a gift.

Osam bin Laden believes in works theology He promulgates a view that it is by what he does in this world that he is saved. I believe that what Christ did upon the cross and what the Holy Spirit did within my heart saved me. Osama bin Laden believes that he can perfect the world. I know that this world is ultimately not perfectable not by me at any rate.

The difference between these two views and how it impacts everyone else is as the difference between night and day.

Miguel:
Jesus seemed to think that being nice was pretty important:

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22: 34-40 (NIV)

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these." Mark 12: 28-31 (NIV)

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." Luke 10: 25-28 (NIV)

Even Paul said the same thing:

8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13: 8-10 (NIV)

14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 5:14

And according to James:

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8 NIV)

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James 2: 14-18 (NIV)

Good works, hands-down. The idea that you can go around doing whatever you please and then tearfully witness to a group of wild-eyed morons and have it all forgiven is one of the worst travesties of Christianity.

If Christians would behave better I'd respect them more, and we wouldn't have a president who makes up excuses to go to war.

Silly beliefs may be comforting, but that doesn't make them true. Good works are good no matter whether your god turns out to be real or not.

CCNL,

Well, so many points! And now I've heard about a new faith--not an atheist and humanist but a Catholic of Reality. OK. And where to start regarding these? Ehmm, I won't because I thought I;d post a wee note to that nice Monsignor Bohlin--four atheists (nasty) posts regarding a nice Catholic piece on faith vs. works.

But re Adam and Eve--there actually was a mitochrondial Eve who lived in East Africa some few hundred or so generations ago from whom all women are descended. There might be an Adam somewhere but geneticists haven't found him yet.

Re: the Eucharest. Look up Aristotle's distinction between existence and essence. The essence of Christ is there at the mass, every mass, but not his existence. It's not a hard difference to understand.

Why do scholars assume that Catholics are Bible literalists? We're not. To tell the truth, many of us--me!--know the Bible mostly from the passages we read in our missals. I'm reading Benedict's "Jesus of Nazareth" and it's the first exegis I've read. Well, it's wonderful--and was well worth the wait.

Anyway, thanks for your response, but not much time. Must send that nice monsignor a little note of appreciation.

This is what's more important: that Bible illiterate people don't ask idiotic questions like that. In terms of religios faith and what it ultimatelly entails what do you think is more important: doing nice things or going to hell? can you get any more clueless than that?

Mary,

Actually I am a Catholic of Reality.

For your review: (many if not most of these elements are being taught in Catholic theology classes at major Catholic universities)

a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.
b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.
c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.
d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.
e. Jesus' Soul/Spirit resides in Heaven with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.
f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.
g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception.
h. Happiness in Heaven is not a gradient but is dependent on the number of souls present.
i. Purgatory is possible but has no Scriptural foundation.
j. Hell is possible but would God tolerate imperfect-Satan spirits and contaminated souls in the realm of the Singularity?
k. As per Schillebeeckx, God does not know the future.
l. Predestination should not be a word.
m. Canonization of the likes of Pio and Juan eliminates any consideration of papal infallibility.
n. Exodus should not be a word.
o. ditto for the Christmas manger.
p. The Eucharist is a fantastic spirit symbol of our thanksgiving but body and blood do not exist there. Continued crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous.
q. Confirmation is only symbolic of our adult acceptance of the Christ’s rules for humanity and our belief in God.
r. Dividing God into three parts violates the first Commandment.
s. Substituting God in place of any reference to the Holy Spirit or the Son of God works quite well.
t. Holy Orders is relevant but not complete without access by females and married members.

v. As per Somerville, “Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door” i.e. there is no religion in Heaven.
w. Lourdes et al as per Crossan prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith. http://www.ntgateway.com/xtalk/crossan3.txt
x. As per Crossan, Westar E-discussion group, 6/14/03, message 20213, “I said that there was hardly a single miracle I was sure of as an historical event even though I was absolutely sure that Jesus was a healer.
y. An act of contrition with repentance and life style changes by anyone of any faith or even no faith should be sufficient for soul cleansing.
z. The Old Testament is so full of untruths and embellishments, its content is of little historical relevance but of prime spiritual importance.
aa. Is Jesus the Son of God? i.e. God- no, but was definitely a Godly representative on earth. He was therefore the biological son of Mary and Joseph.
bb. God, in my opinion, is responsible for the Big Bang program that got the Ball rolling. He/She is unable to stop or influence it
because it is restricted by the gifts of future and free will. Good and bad, however, are part of the program. There is nothing to prevent the bad from winning as shown by historic events. Was JC an attempt at influence?? Probably not, just a Good part of the program in Run mode. One day lets hope the Good is part of everyone's Favorite list.
cc. Miracles do not happen except through a mental desire or faith to be cured since miracles violate God’s gift of natural law. If God were involved in our daily lives, cures would not be needed. You cannot have it both ways.

Hooray! Paris Hilton found God! Did God find Paris Hilton?

All this works faith business is baloney. People behave the same whether they believe in works or in faith. It doesn't matter.

It took me awhile but I read all the entrys ahead of this and the last will be first. Over several mellenia, mankind guided by its "better angels" caused to be written a book called the Holy Bible. Mystically it contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation of believers. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It containts light to direct, food to support, and comfort to cheer.

What sets man apart is the use of "words" to impart, albeit inprecisely, abstract concepts of reality between conscious beings.

Most readers have read John 1:1 but how many have really dwelled on this use of the word "WORD." What does this word connote? What about the parenthetical at Mathew vs. 24:15 which 'lets the reader understand.'

Grace be to "God" that "(S)He" has stayed the hand of editors and evangelicals from removing the abiquity and imposing their own understanding.

Salvation.
It's not a hard concept to grasp.Yes,it is very easy to grasp,is it?
9000 years ago Holy Mother had saved people,9000 years later Holy Mother Church will save catholics,choosen ones,choosen sheep such as exactly written Matthew 25.33
Jupiter,The Saviour had saved ancient romans.
Apollo,son of god Zeus had saved ancient greeks.
Saviour Jesus,Son of God will save those who baptized Mark 16.16,except ''cowardly,the unbelieving,the vile,the murderer,the sexually immortal,those who practice magic arts and all liars''Revelation 21.8
In that case how many people will be saved? Less then five per cent of world population.

Salvation in islam.
If muslim women dont show their unwashed and dirty hairs(because they usualy take shower bath once a month) and wear burqa and if muslims worship 150 times in a month they will be saved.
What about japaneses,chineses,hindus,africans.

Who shall save whom? Who is Who?

A respectful poster is using the word 'atheist' too much.But,lets not forget,according to islam a catholic is 'atheist' as well.
'They surely disbelieve who say God is the third of three(Trinity) Quran 5.73

According to catholics,protestants and orthodox go astray;according to orthodox,catholics and protesants go astray;for islam,all christians go astray.So who is 'infidel',who is not.
Is it easy to grasp? No,who shall save whom and who is who...
Nobody knows the exact answer.

Mr.Brooks,Kevin Costner.Super film.

Re: my response to the Westboro Baptist Church.

The initial question ("you Christians out there, what about Westboro Baptists?") was a good example of a “gotcha” post and didn’t call for an answer. I just answered one 'gotcha' with another. Neither needed an answer because a gotcha’ question is not a question; it's a rhetorical trick. If the discussion is about Christian Protestants you ask a ‘question’ about some bad Protestant act—in this case the westboro Baptists-- if it’s about Islam, bring up Osama bin Laden, for Catholicism: paedophile priests fit the bill nicely.

Concerned the Christian asks a lot of ‘gotcha’s’: his continued query re religious freedom to Jihadist, his gotcha to Dr. Wright re Henry VIII, his repeated exhortations to “think out of the box” (Why do people USE business bullsh*t like that?) Like many atheists he blithely assumes that intelligent, sincere Catholics are devout because they were brainwashed as children!

Re: Christian churches in Muslim lands.

This, however, was more a sincere question than a 'gotcha'. There is a lot of news here about state authorities acting against Christian converts, mostly in Pakistan. I would note Ahmed didn’t include Pakistan in his answers, nor did Jih. Pakistan ISTM is the both the centre of radical Islam, the faith, and the training centre for Jihadis destined to attack civilians in Britains. Most of the Muslims currently in remand for terrorist attacks in London are 2nd generation Pakistanis and trained at centres in Pakistan.

(Anyway, a 'faith vs good works' discussion is not the place to discuss the role of Pakistan in radical Islam.)

Best,
MC

Jihadist and Ahmed,

• Firstly I live in London, although I was born and spent my childhood in the West of Ireland. I moved to London as a teenager—about the time the IRA brought bombing to the mainland--and was educated through post grad. level here (except for one degree in the US.)

• I’ve always been Catholic, sometimes more practicing than others, but it’s always been there, at the very core of me.

• I guess you could say I have multiple layers of loyalty.

• It hasn’t been agreeable to be Catholic in England for much of the time I’ve lived here. Until the mid-1980s and Cardinal Hume, there was a very nasty undercurrent of English anti-Catholic prejudice.. Catholics were assumed to be both Irish and disloyal. The IRA bombings didn’t help!

True believers live by faith.

Salvation is not of works.

Works is a result, a product, of being saved.

Hence, is more important to be saved because a person cannot have good works unless he is saved to begin with. Once a person is saved, then comes the works --God does the doing.

Faith without works is dead, means that a person's faith is not alive to begin with if that person does not have works to show for it.

Debra...

Jihadist,

Yes or no, do you believe there should be freedom of religion globally? No "ifs", "buts" and "wishy wash", simply yes or no.

Perry Clark

Greetings to you my dear friend. I am open to receive and I follow and accept your reasoning which I feel is close to mine in intention if not clarity. The point is that Christians like Muslims come in all shades and I have met some who believe in what I have explained. It is good to see those like yourself who believe in what you have said. That we only repent once and by doing so we stand side-by-side with God and thus we do not see anything else. Just like moving from a dark room to a room full of light. In such a room we no longer see darkness because we have chosen the path of righteousness. We are guided by ONE Mighty. We either believe in this OR still hang on to sins. We can not believe in both and still claim allegiance to Christ. When we repent, we repent and let go. Our hearts are purified and a purified heart does not contain sin anymore and will never contemplate hurting another. Our is the lnaguage of love and belief in PURITY and PERFECTION. We have left sin a million miles behind. It is not longer in our landscape. I truly beieive Christ lived like that and he wanted every single human being to experience such a spiritual state. All his teachings lead us to this conclusion.

I have read many religious books to understand that no one can come close to God by just reading a book. It is our total belief in God and our actions towards other fellow human beings that gives us a glimpse of God. As for becoming a friend of God, that is only done through the heart and total surrender to His will. This requires letting go of all our ego for God and Ego do not mix well together. It is HE who guides those who choose HIM to HIS dominion.

I adore Christ with all my heart and being. He is truly my greatest teacher through my own heart for I have truly accepted him with all my heart.

Mary Cunnigham

Yes, about 7 minutes walk from my own house and mosque there is a Catholic church that has been there ever since I have known myself for 57 years and it has a service every Sunday. There is another church close-by but I am not sure what denomination. Also I have lived in Malaysia and there are many churches there just as there are Bhuddist temples. I have been to many of them and prayed, as I firmly believe that all houses of worhsip are sacred to those who believe in them. I just happen to believe in an all-encamapassing God. I do not believe that one has to be a Muslim to be accepted by God.

There have always been churches in Egypt, Jordan and Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq, etc. Somali, I don't know??

As for Saudi Arabia, well I am not a fan. Their ruling family needs to learn a lot before it can claim any closeness to God.

Ah, two more TINFOIL HATTED LEFTIST LOONS...they sure are coming out so that we can see and hear them. A better question is: do you, Sally and Jon, believe in Hillary/Gore/Edwards/Kucinich? And if so, which is going to give you salvation, because you certainly have not done any "good works".

Beautifully said, Jihadist. The Divine calls to each of us in the voice we alone can hear. How we answer is up to us. No one can say what is the right answer for another person, only for themself.

Hello Mary Cunningham :)

Good to see you back in form.

I am certainly flattered that you grouped Muslims and atheists together for whatever reason. I do like many atheists posters in On Faith for their cool reasoning on matters of faith, religion and God. And Wiccans/Pagans too, for their deep and spiritual connection with nature.

Athiests could be the best chairman of any inter-faith dialogue or commissions. They have no religious baggage and partisanship, and consequently are the best to led us all to ultimate salvation in not sniping at other believers of God and faiths, including paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. and to focus on universal common values and for seperation of church and state.

Ah yes, atheists have to answer for Pol Pot, and Muslims have to answer for Osama bin Laden. Surely we are not asking Catholics to answer for the IRA and priests engaged in pedophilia? But that is besides the point here, for I'm sure they all seek salvation for what they have done by the grace of the Compassionate and Merciful God.

Pol Pot, since he don't believe in God, will have to make do with house arrest and dying without being shot. That was his punishment, that was his retribution for what he has done. Whether he repented, whether he seek salvation, is irrelevant. When he died, he died, no after-life, no heaven and hell as atheists and/or Cambodian Buddhists believe.

Osama Bin Laden, is certainly not getting any temporal salvation for what he has done. He is hunted down, he is on the run. Could be dead already. He could burn in hell for all eternity for what he has done if he truly believe in heaven and hell. I don't know if he is seeking salvation for what he has done.

I don't have your absolutely certainty that salvation is only for specific believers and not for unbelievers. Only that salvation here on earth is what unbelievers also seek in living by specific ethics and values.

As for salvation for believers, certainly no believer, no matter how devout, how pious, can say for certain if s/he will get salvation. After all, God doth guide to It who It Will. And if God don't guide or open the hearts, minds and souls of those who are atheists to It, God knows best.

Please don't force anyone to any beliefs against their will. There is no compulsion in religion and God hates hypocrites the most. If you don't understand the miseries of state imposed faith and the successful manipulation of a specific religious group on governments, all you got to do is read up on the Lina Joy case in Malaysia. It is a cautionary tale of believers blatantly over-stepping limits on matters related to personal belief, and exceeding human decency in wantonly transgressing individual dignity and personal freedom.

You may think it will never happen in the US, but reading what some posters here wrote about Mormons, pagans/wiccans, atheists, gays, that is how it all start - the imposition of majority values and beliefs in state affairs and policies as well as others who are not adherents of the same faith as them.

Do we need salvation? Yes, we need to save ourselves from the sins we commit against our fellow men who are of a different race, gender and belief.

Best regards

God saves you inspite of yourself not because of anything you have done will do or are doing including asking him into your heart.

Frankly if you are really and trully inviting the one true and living god into your heart it is because his spirit is already there.

Go to newsbusters of you want a clear answer.

Way too intellectualized here. It is not a knowledge thing, it is a "has He been asked in to your heart thing?"

Hey, Wiccan and Lep,

Doesn't it amaze you that if you believe in something other than the Bible you are automatically questioned?

Angie, I do not belong to ANY established religious order, yet I have faith in "the holy cosmic heartbeat" that you happen to call God. That I don't believe that IT (God, not a he or a she) ever had a son, or that IT ever spoke to Moses or Noah or anyone else for that matter does not make my faith any lessvalid than your.

The same goes for the Pagans.

Could you rephrase the question please, so it makes some sense? Obviously your perspective is the secular "religious people are aliens" wing of the Ultra-Left, so let me help you out:

Your question should be: "From your religious perspective, which is more important to obtaining 'salvation' faith or good works?" This IS what you meant to ask, isn't it?

If so: "For by GRACE are ye saved, through FAITH, and that (faith) not of youselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT of Works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9

The rest you can figure out for yourselves.

Angie:
"But if you don't believe in the bible or even God why on earth are you on the Faith Posts?"

The word "faith" does not apply exclusively to the Bible or to Christianity. People from many different faiths post here.

Angie:
"But if you don't believe in the bible or even God why on earth are you on the Faith Posts?"

The word "faith" does not apply exclusively to the Bible or to Christianity. People from many different faiths post here.

Angie-

"I am free to answer all questions on this. But it is clearly written in Revelation, Jude, and other chapters in the bible. But if you don't believe in the bible or even God why on earth are you on the Faith Posts?"

Ma'am, there are other faiths besides Christianity. And agnostics and atheists have the right to represent themselves. This forum is used by some to learn about other faiths with respect, and used by some to denigrate those of other faiths. I have met some wonderful people here who do not follow my faith, nor do I follow theirs, but sometimes we find common ground, sometimes we courteously agree to disagree.

May we stay?

The New Testament, the epilogue to the Jewish Tanakh, clearly state that being saved through acceptance of the Messiah is the ONLY way to "heaven" and to be able to stand before the Father. However, they also say that faith without works, is stagnate and stale. So it is through faith in the messiah that we are saved, and being saved and "born again, we do good works because it is the right thing to do. Being saved is the cause, good works are the effect.

I guess it depends on whether you are Arminian or Reformed. The former needs works in order to REMAIN saved by faith, the latter needs works in order to DEMONSTRATE salvation by faith.