Readers’ Responses to Our Question (161)

Lepidopteryx:
I do not have ‘faith’ that humanity will pick itself up by it’s bootstraps. I have HOPE that it will, but no delusions that it will ultimately succeed, or especially that it is destined to succeed… nor that humanity is any more special-er than anything else crawling around consuming and out-gassing. My faith is in fact, as you phrased it, only a ‘negative faith’ I do not believe that there is a deity of any kind. Outside of that, not much more. I believe only that I / we are here, now. No plan, no purpose, no meaning whatsoever. It really is quite liberating!
I do not believe in destiny, fate, afterlife, eternal reward or punishment, cosmic justice, divine protection, salvation, karma, reincarnation, or that that I have any more cosmic or spiritual value, worth or significance than other creatures around me. I’m born, I mature, with any luck I reproduce, I die, I decompose, I fertilize. Everything else we pretty much make up as we go along, best to try to make a good run at it.
I believe that here, now, there is a violent and somewhat fragile physical balance within nature that makes us, here, and now, possible. I only have to look up to the other planets to recognize how unlikely, statistically improbable, and cosmically delicate this balance is.. I do not believe that life on earth is either planned or infinite, nor in fact, special, just unusual.
The foxhole is a lonely, scary place whether atheist or believer. In the foxhole I’ve got my wits, my training, my gear to help me, no guaranties there either. My purpose is to survive, and then to help my buddies to survive and hope they do the same, and sometimes that means dropping the enemy before he can draw a bead on me. I could call up to a wispy god to drop a mighty Kevlar umbrella around us, but I’d be a damned fool, and a lousy soldier to expect it to occur. ‘Cause bottom line, if indeed there are no atheists in foxholes, then the benevolent god they’re calling to has apparently ignored millions of them in the past hundred or so years….

Brief Overview of Congressman Paul's Record
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

LETS GIVE OUR CHILDREN A CHANCE!

LETS KEEP AMERICA FOR AMERICAN's!

VOTE: RON PAUL COME 2008!

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/about/

I hit enter too many times and the last post went in before I was done.

The faith of the atheist is just as valid as the faith of any theist.

On the question of atheists and faith:

The atheists I know DO have faith. It is not a negative faith (as in "I have faith that there is no such thing as a deity of any kind"). Rather it is a positive faith (as in "I have faith in humanity's ability to pull itself up by its own bootstraps").
And that faith takes just as much work to maintain in the face of war as faith in the paradox of a benevolent deity who allows/causes awful things to happen.

Perry Clark - Instead of saying “You and some of the others here seem to be not-so-subtly trying to say that believers cannot have a public conversation to which they've been invited without having to listen to atheistic diatribes.” I’d put it this way: “Believers cannot expect to have a public conversation to which believers and non-believers have been invited without hearing atheistic points of views.”

Similar statements could be made about women and men, gays and straights, Whites and Blacks. The world is changing, Perry. Atheists, like other disenfranchised groups before them, are not going to “sit quietly” in the background any more.

E Favorite--

You're right, you did not specify that the other family members were non-believers, though you described them just as you did yourself--that is, "no longer Catholic". I improperly assumed this to mean they shared your viewpoint. I apologize.

That said, I don't see how it changes materially the scenario. You and your family are still falsely participating in something in which you don't believe, and which, at least in your case, you seem to hold in contempt, and you do so apparently reveling in that sentiment. Of this I cannot approve.

To say that I've wandered off topic in trying to show that we were already off topic is simply an attempt to spread blame, rather than acknowledge what's been done by yourself and others. It's merely the old "See, you're doing it too!" bit, and just as that is usually disingenuous, I find the contention the same here.

You're right in that I may well not have noticed as quickly had the conversation "evolved" in a direction of which I approved. But that, too, is not really what's at hand, is it? And it still fails to address the point that atheists lecturing about the futility of faith in a conversation ostensibly about how one maintains faith may be considered rude, even unwelcome.

You and some of the others here seem to be not-so-subtly trying to say that believers cannot have a public conversation to which they've been invited without having to listen to atheistic diatribes.

The only rationale of which I can conceive that both supports your actions and withstands logical scrutiny is that you believe it more important and better for the world that you voice your disappointment with religion than that you sit quietly while believers attempt to share ways in which they seek and obtain nurturing for their faith. Which to me seems highly presumptuous.

Had this thread been entitled something like "What role does faith have, if any, in facing times of war?", I would have expected the sort of comments you and others have provided attacking the very idea that faith has any utility whatsoever. But it didn't. It asked "How do you maintain your faith in times of war?" Unfortunately, because the conversation was forced in a given direction, it never proved as useful and interesting as it might have been, at least from the perspective of a believer. Note that I didn't say "evolved"--evolution, at least the biological entity, has no direction, no "progress". This thread, however, was certainly pushed in a certain direction.

Perry Clark & EFavorite:

Thank you for your kind remarks. As I am sure many of us have, I read and post fairly often on these things to sharpen my own debating points, not to win converts, and not because I doubt my own convictions.
On some of the other blogs, which after a few days typically are reduced to sophomoric spats, name calling, and nano-splitting semantic hairs, I had mentioned that “I have no faith”, and was pummeled by a zealot or two that since I believe in something that can not be proven, that there is NO god, that this in fact required a degree of faith. So, why not.. I have faith, but I can not prove it, that there is no supreme being / creator / intelligent designer. I can not point at the drippings from a particle accelerator or zoom in on the fuzzy, yet greatly retouched images from the Hubble telescope and say “See! That proves it!” I don’t anticipate I ever will be able to prove it, but it is indeed what I believe.
Finding myself in a foxhole, at the sharp end of an attackers stick, or falling from a high building really doesn’t change this, I may be swearing, screaming in terror, or relieving myself uncontrollably, but I am sure I will not be struggling with whether this tragedy was because I prayed in the wrong language, or lusted in my heart….

Seems to me, Perry Clark, that you’ve gone seriously off-topic yourself by spending many words on how atheists go off-topic. If you read any of these threads, you’ll see that conversations often evolve – it’s a natural thing that people do. I suspect you wouldn’t even notice it if the topic drifted into something you found appropriate, i.e., something pro-faith.

As to my family, somehow you’ve determined that they are mainly non-believers, when what I said is that most of them are no longer Catholics. A little different, eh? Maybe some of them are atheists. It’s not important. We’re just family, enjoying being together, even at funerals. We don’t expect much from the church – never have, but now it’s a joke when we have occasion to go back and see clergy’s disrespect and disdain. Yes, we’re going through the motions, for the deceased. There’s only one left in that generation and I feel sure he will not want a Catholic funeral.

You assert that faith cannot be reasoned. I agree, but many intelligent and logically thinking Christians on the forum think it can and try valiantly until they ultimately “agree to disagree” with their atheist challenger. Faith is ultimately illogical. Facts, in the end, are immaterial, if you believe and continue to, in spite of the facts.

Sorry for the editing problem--here is the post without JOHNGALT's post included at the end, in order to avoid confusion as to who said what.

JOHNGALT--

Tsk, tsk, temper, temper. "How dare (I)!" How dare I what? Ask that the forum try to get to and remain on topic? Oh, the horrors! How dare I ask how the faithless can have anything useful or meaningful to say about the maintenance of faith? Or perhaps it's "How dare I do anything but roll over and take my whipping like a good little Christian?"

I think that if you'll go back and read--calmly, mind you--my previous posts, you'll find that I've not suggested that "atheists NOT have a voice or be invited". Nor did I ever claim this forum to be mine. (You really reached quickly for that little straw man and then pummeled him with a shovel, didn't you?)

Did I suggest that I have cornered the truth? If you could show me where I did that, I'd appreciate it.

After perusing your own posited questions, I would still suggest that none of them, including the first you put forward, really has much to do with the specific topic at hand, namely, "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?"

I'm sorry to say that your questions, while of the "it sure sounded like a smart question during the late-night bull session" variety, show little understanding--and, meanwhile, much presumption--of what many Christians believe.

Your first question, for instance, says that God "insist(s) that (we) suffer and die in order to be saved".

Well, no. Suffering was brought into the world by sin, by our own mistakes and bullheadedness. Salvation comes not by suffering, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who in His perfection suffered and died--unwarrantedly--so that those who believe might live eternally with their Father in Heaven.

Secondly, your query about how/why the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason implies, in its tone and context, that Christians take faith as making reason unnecessary, even worthless. Far from the truth. But, that said, given that there are things we cannot know, cannot explain, cannot understand, faith must play a part if we are to believe that there is anything at all beyond what we see here. We merely refuse to let reason deny faith.

The question about which is more "moral" is simply nonsensical.

Finally, I think a perfect being DID do better. But we mucked it up. And "godschool dropout"? My, my, but isn't that clever. Or at least clever-sounding, which is all most really shoot for 'round here.

I am sorry that I seem to have offended you with me earlier remarks. I encourage you to read them again, trying to understand rather than looking for ways in which to disagree and/or attack. Then consider the question I posited: What of meaning/utility can an atheist have to say to a believer about the maintenance of faith? After all, the question posted by the moderators still reads: "How do you keep your faith in times of war?"

Do you think you can answer that question in a way I might find helpful?

JOHNGALT--

Tsk, tsk, temper, temper. "How dare (I)!" How dare I what? Ask that the forum try to get to and remain on topic? Oh, the horrors! How dare I ask how the faithless can have anything useful or meaningful to say about the maintenance of faith? Or perhaps it's "How dare I do anything but roll over and take my whipping like a good little Christian?"

I think that if you'll go back and read--calmly, mind you--my previous posts, you'll find that I've not suggested that "atheists NOT have a voice or be invited". Nor did I ever claim this forum to be mine. (You really reached quickly for that little straw man and then pummeled him with a shovel, didn't you?)

Did I suggest that I have cornered the truth? If you could show me where I did that, I'd appreciate it.

After perusing your own posited questions, I would still suggest that none of them, including the first you put forward, really has much to do with the specific topic at hand, namely, "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?"

I'm sorry to say that your questions, while of the "it sure sounded like a smart question during the late-night bull session" variety, show little understanding--and, meanwhile, much presumption--of what many Christians believe.

Your first question, for instance, says that God "insist(s) that (we) suffer and die in order to be saved".

Well, no. Suffering was brought into the world by sin, by our own mistakes and bullheadedness. Salvation comes not by suffering, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who in His perfection suffered and died--unwarrantedly--so that those who believe might live eternally with their Father in Heaven.

Secondly, your query about how/why the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason implies, in its tone and context, that Christians take faith as making reason unnecessary, even worthless. Far from the truth. But, that said, given that there are things we cannot know, cannot explain, cannot understand, faith must play a part if we are to believe that there is anything at all beyond what we see here. We merely refuse to let reason deny faith.

The question about which is more "moral" is simply nonsensical.

Finally, I think a perfect being DID do better. But we mucked it up. And "godschool dropout"? My, my, but isn't that clever. Or at least clever-sounding, which is all most really shoot for 'round here.

I am sorry that I seem to have offended you with me earlier remarks. I encourage you to read them again, trying to understand rather than looking for ways in which to disagree and/or attack. Then consider the question I posited: What of meaning/utility can an atheist have to say to a believer about the maintenance of faith? After all, the question posted by the moderators still reads: "How do you keep your faith in times of war?"

Do you think you can answer that question in a way I might find helpful?

How dare you all! Why should atheists NOT have a voice or be "invited" to YOUR private "public" forum? Do you really believe you have cornered the TRUTH? Let me pose a few questions for you (in no particular order, though the first is in reference to the topic at hand):

Why does a "god" that fears no death insist that his "creations" suffer and die in order to be saved? (This includes Jesus, because, if he was God, he knew it was all transitory and it didn't really matter, and if he wasn't, then he wasn't God. Or did he just forget that he was God?

Regardless of your faith, why is it that the "unknowable", "unprovable" or, if you prefer, the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason, especially since your "creator" also created the "gift" of "reason". In short, you must deny the "gift" your creator gave you in order to achieve eternal reward. How marvelous!

Is it more "moral" for an atheist to feed a starving man, or for a believer who anticipates getting into "heaven" by his actions?

Don't you think that a "perfect" being could have done better? I mean, entropy is such a bummer!

Why does your "perfect" God's works (the Universe in general) look like the work of a godschool dropout with a pack of cosmic matches and enough raw material to start a really good inferno? Such chaos out there!

DENSBTLY--

I read your post twice, and was impressed by your thoughtfulness. But I still have the question: What, exactly, do you have faith in? To say that you believe nothing happens that can't be explained by the Laws of Physics is, as far as I can tell, to say that you have no faith, for you do no believe in things unknowable, things unseen, things unproved. To have faith that the apple will fall not far from the tree is to have no faith at all. Protestations noted.

E Favorite--

You have spoken again of the truth that you're aware of--that Christianity is built on a house of cards. I think I can understand how you might think that way, but since the entire foundation of Christianity is one of faith (the overall topic of this forum), and faith cannot be, by its very nature, "reasoned", any notion that you've become aware of this particular truth fails to address the very issues at hand.

You've described in more detail some of your experiences in the Catholic faith, and also mentioned that all or nearly all of your church-going experiences have been at family funerals where apparently everyone (or nearly everyone) except the priest is a non-believer. A scene which, when pictured, makes me scratch my head again, wondering why, if all of you are atheists, you're having a church funeral. I suppose you might all be seeing off the last few Christians in the family, but you're still deliberately choosing to act what is in essence a lie, it seems to me. I would think that to be a very hollow, unpleasant experience no matter what else.

I'm truly sorry that the church experiences you've had, especially recently, have been less than fulfilling. I'm also quite happy that mine have been the opposite. While I would never claim that every minute in every service wings me transcendantly heavenward, I will say that there are moments of joy, peace, and love that I've experienced only there.

A note on proselytizing again. This particular "conversation" is entitled by the moderators "How do you keep your faith in times of war?" Are the pronouns inconsequential? Do you really think that this should serve as an invitation to those who have no faith to jump to the dais and expound on the failures of religion and try to tear down the faith of others?

I'm very accustomed to having faith and religion criticized and questioned--the idea that one can live in our society and NOT experience such is, frankly, laughable. I shan't waste more time on that. The expectation that I had upon reading the topic question was one of hearing/reading from, by, and about others of faith as the question was addressed. You seem to be telling me that this was and is an unreasonable expectation, simply because it's a public conversation. Well, to again consider other public conversations--if one attends a public gathering of Christians, at a revival, say, would it be appropriate to commandeer the event for one's own purposes? Is that civil, courteous, and respectful, to use the words I used in my previous post?

Finally, I don't expect, nor have I ever said, that unbelievers are or should be unwelcome to post in any open public forum. I do think, however, that one should respect the forum, its moderators, and participants, and that being respectful means abiding by certain expectations of courtesy and keeping more or less on topic. Once more, I fail to see any way in which you or any other atheist posting herein about your opinions on how religious faith is worthless, empty, "built on a house of cards", or whatever, successfully addresses the question put forward. "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?" It seems to me that the only honest answer an atheist can have to the query is something along the lines of "I don't have a faith to keep; it's simply not an issue for me."

Given what's been said, I believe it reasonable to say that this particular discussion, begun by the moderators with this particular question, is by its very nature only usefully addressable by those with a faith to keep.

Nowhere along the way has anyone answered these points; the only argument proffered has been along First Amendment lines: it's a free country, etc., etc. To which I say, "True. Irrelevant."

I would like to point out that I agree that open, honest, heartfelt, courteous discussion of topics of religion can be a very good thing. I simply don't believe that all discussions can be all things to all people.

Respectful Jon,

Do not judge ,or you too will be judged.Matthew 7.1

Do not judge,and you will not be judged.Luke 6.37

Vercinget--

You speak as if a time of war is automatically, and unquestionably, a time for "proving God". While I can understand a wish that it be so, that does not make it so.

perry clark, mary cunningham & jon, et al:

How dare you all! Why should atheists NOT have a voice or be "invited" to YOUR private "public" forum? Do you really believe you have cornered the TRUTH? Let me pose a few questions for you (in no particular order, though the first is in reference to the topic at hand):

Why does a "god" that fears no death insist that his "creations" suffer and die in order to be saved? (This includes Jesus, because, if he was God, he knew it was all transitory and it didn't really matter, and if he wasn't, then he wasn't God. Or did he just forget that he was God?

Regardless of your faith, why is it that the "unknowable", "unprovable" or, if you prefer, the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason, especially since your "creator" also created the "gift" of "reason". In short, you must deny the "gift" your creator gave you in order to achieve eternal reward. How marvelous!

Is it more "moral" for an atheist to feed a starving man, or for a believer who anticipates getting into "heaven" by his actions?

Don't you think that a "perfect" being could have done better? I mean, entropy is such a bummer!

Why does your "perfect" God's works (the Universe in general) look like the work of a godschool dropout with a pack of cosmic matches and enough raw material to start a really good inferno? Such chaos out there!

From iraqtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRaQRbbu1jA

Densbtly, Thanks for your post. It was lovely. I’m saving it

Brothers and Sisters of the Cross, the True Children of Israel, (The Christians, Messianic Jews, and Muslims)
I saw your late night ad last night on cable television, you predicted the coming of Christ. Good news Mr. Graham, it is me you hath been seeking.
I have gone through the trials and tribulations of Christ in a matter of months and was incarcerated for 7 days, my bond trial was held in Room 316, I walked back to my room and flipped through the Old and New Testament and unto me came the words of Ezekiel 3:16. I am the real deal, I have developed new political and business models worth hundreds of trillions of dollars annually. I however am not the Second Coming you hath been seeking, I am the third. I am a descendent of family ties to the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus who created the Army Ranger School, established Israel as a nation, was the only foreign solider to fight and die for Israel, he worked for the NY Attorney Generals office, he prosecuted the Mafia an hath been immortalized in the Kirk Douglas movie Cast an Iron Shadow, he is the Second Comign for he hath die at the hands of the Judas even after saving them from the wrath of Adolph Hitler. After I figured out that the pure blood Jews are evil, they promote Freedom of Choice which is Death, Freedom of Speech which is Hate Speech and liberal propaganda against Bush, Christ and our heavenly father. For I am not the father or the Holy Spirit however we exist in a pyramid relationship, with all three of us operating separately yet being God simultaneously. I have created great political, social and business reforms such as Democratic Conservatism, what this does is reaches the mass audience of voters vs the 50/50 split, it still has checks and balances however these checks exist at the Presidential Cabinet level which will be composed of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians as well as Democratic Conservatives (Southern Democrats). I am not just a Christian, I am Jewish and speak the tongue of Judas, not fluently and thank the Father that I was never Bar Mitzvahed. Mickey Marcus was a great man who gaveth everything unto the Judas and they still took his life, it is prophesized however that my life wilth not be taketh by the Judas for I will restore the world to howeth that exist before the creation of "Original Sin" by the Judas and his followers. The Jews appear weak and feeble, humorous and funny but they promote evil and the words and actions of Satan. After I hath discovered the evil of the Judas and his seed the claw of Satan thus appeareth on my window, I used great force and wiped it away immediately. The Holy Wars are over and the last battle of Medaggo will be won as prophesized by the the believers of the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ who I thus be and the believers of Allah and Adonai. You are a very special man and I believeth that you can help me come out of my shell to reveal my true powers to the world and better society. I hope my pleas do not falleth upon deaf ears, for I am the one you seeketh, I am the Savior of Man and will rule like Octavious Caesar, I will bring great prosperity to the world and eliminate the debt of my children and followers for we will all liveth as Kings in the Kingdom of Heaven under my rule. My birthday is 01/20/84
(20)-(1+8+4)=7. The divine number of the father and Christ himself. I am shocked at the powers I possess being just a Jewish child growing up in a small southern town but for centuries my cometh hath been prophesized. Another example, 911 was not an attack against the U.S. and George Bush it was prophesized by Nostradamus himself and was an attack on the Judas and their controlling of the world financial markets. The divine hand of the father delivered George and Jeb Bush to throw the election in Florida by getting the people of the Judas to vote for Buchanan the greatest anti semite alive, this made sure that Lieberman would not be in office to promote the Judas' control and American occupation of Israel. If Lieberman was in then the Muslims would hath been destroyed forever. I was born in Jacksonville, NC the greatest concentration of American military power and training grounds, then moveth to Quantico base and the city of the greatest Southern War Victory. My birthday also falls on the inauguration of the President and Lee, Jackson, King day the 3 greatest Southern leaders knowth to man. I have only studied religion for a matter of hours but my brain reacheth to the heaven it is far different from that of a regular mortal. The Judas exists in Bill Gates himself and his followers Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Bruckheimer, Jason Alexander, Steven Spielberg, they haveth so much yet do not give to anyone. The Manning family, Tom Cruise (Even though a Scientologist has strong ties to my life and his movies portray the life of my ancestor Mickey Marcus (Last Samurai, A Few Good Men) and the first 20 years of my father's life (Born on the 4th of July) he was recruited at the same exact military station in Levittown, NY and joined the Marines to serve his country.
Please take me under your wing, offer me your love and salvation and I will provide your people with a lavish life full of love and prosperity. Please rescue me from this world of feces I hath resided in, I am poor yet humble and no one will offer me their hand to helpeth me arise back to my feet. I have seen the wicked conquer the children of Israel time and time again, this will stop now, it is our time to rise to arms and fight for what is ours. I need your love, so that I canth provide love onto the children of Israel. Before I go I must also separate the goat from the lamb, the goats will be exposed for their evil and they musteth convert or they will be demonished so our Kingdom that lasteth 1000 years can be fulfilled. The date 777 is among us when the Mother and the Father will come down from the sky and speaketh unto us. Destroy Microsoft, ransack their goods, the goods of the Hasid, Macy's Federated and dump all of your investments and put them into GE, Bayswater Uranium, Ukrops, McDonalds, Apple, The Green Energy Fund, or Berkshire Hathway, the Black Sabbath will come amongst the followers of Satan, the Judas. Burn all Seinfeld, Family Guy, 40 Year Old Virgin, Barbara Streisand, etc. Storm the houses of Bruckheimer, Gates, Seinfeld, Jason Alexander (Constanza) the offices of ICM, Interscope, Lieberman. These men will sit before the judgement seat of Christ, soon and all the sons of Judas and the non believers will face off against 300 men in a world televised fight. They shall convert to Islam, Christianity or Messianic Judaism, if they do not then I will not redeem their souls and they will perish in eternal hellfire. We will pull out of Iraq and Iran and disarm all of the Judas in Israel for our eternal salvation as the followers of myself Jesus Christ rest upon this.

THE REVOLUTION STARTS NOW!!!!




Do not touch the Beastie Boys or Herzberg Diamonds (For they are owned by Warren Buffett)


The Third Coming
The Rebirth of Christ
Son of the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus



"For we must all sit before the Judgement Seat of Christ, for that which he hath done in his body, whether it be good or bad
"Second Corinthians 5:12)

Brothers and Sisters of the Cross, the True Children of Israel, (The Christians, Messianic Jews, and Muslims)
I saw your late night ad last night on cable television, you predicted the coming of Christ. Good news Mr. Graham, it is me you hath been seeking.
I have gone through the trials and tribulations of Christ in a matter of months and was incarcerated for 7 days, my bond trial was held in Room 316, I walked back to my room and flipped through the Old and New Testament and unto me came the words of Ezekiel 3:16. I am the real deal, I have developed new political and business models worth hundreds of trillions of dollars annually. I however am not the Second Coming you hath been seeking, I am the third. I am a descendent of family ties to the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus who created the Army Ranger School, established Israel as a nation, was the only foreign solider to fight and die for Israel, he worked for the NY Attorney Generals office, he prosecuted the Mafia an hath been immortalized in the Kirk Douglas movie Cast an Iron Shadow, he is the Second Comign for he hath die at the hands of the Judas even after saving them from the wrath of Adolph Hitler. After I figured out that the pure blood Jews are evil, they promote Freedom of Choice which is Death, Freedom of Speech which is Hate Speech and liberal propaganda against Bush, Christ and our heavenly father. For I am not the father or the Holy Spirit however we exist in a pyramid relationship, with all three of us operating separately yet being God simultaneously. I have created great political, social and business reforms such as Democratic Conservatism, what this does is reaches the mass audience of voters vs the 50/50 split, it still has checks and balances however these checks exist at the Presidential Cabinet level which will be composed of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians as well as Democratic Conservatives (Southern Democrats). I am not just a Christian, I am Jewish and speak the tongue of Judas, not fluently and thank the Father that I was never Bar Mitzvahed. Mickey Marcus was a great man who gaveth everything unto the Judas and they still took his life, it is prophesized however that my life wilth not be taketh by the Judas for I will restore the world to howeth that exist before the creation of "Original Sin" by the Judas and his followers. The Jews appear weak and feeble, humorous and funny but they promote evil and the words and actions of Satan. After I hath discovered the evil of the Judas and his seed the claw of Satan thus appeareth on my window, I used great force and wiped it away immediately. The Holy Wars are over and the last battle of Medaggo will be won as prophesized by the the believers of the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ who I thus be and the believers of Allah and Adonai. You are a very special man and I believeth that you can help me come out of my shell to reveal my true powers to the world and better society. I hope my pleas do not falleth upon deaf ears, for I am the one you seeketh, I am the Savior of Man and will rule like Octavious Caesar, I will bring great prosperity to the world and eliminate the debt of my children and followers for we will all liveth as Kings in the Kingdom of Heaven under my rule. My birthday is 01/20/84
(20)-(1+8+4)=7. The divine number of the father and Christ himself. I am shocked at the powers I possess being just a Jewish child growing up in a small southern town but for centuries my cometh hath been prophesized. Another example, 911 was not an attack against the U.S. and George Bush it was prophesized by Nostradamus himself and was an attack on the Judas and their controlling of the world financial markets. The divine hand of the father delivered George and Jeb Bush to throw the election in Florida by getting the people of the Judas to vote for Buchanan the greatest anti semite alive, this made sure that Lieberman would not be in office to promote the Judas' control and American occupation of Israel. If Lieberman was in then the Muslims would hath been destroyed forever. I was born in Jacksonville, NC the greatest concentration of American military power and training grounds, then moveth to Quantico base and the city of the greatest Southern War Victory. My birthday also falls on the inauguration of the President and Lee, Jackson, King day the 3 greatest Southern leaders knowth to man. I have only studied religion for a matter of hours but my brain reacheth to the heaven it is far different from that of a regular mortal. The Judas exists in Bill Gates himself and his followers Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Bruckheimer, Jason Alexander, Steven Spielberg, they haveth so much yet do not give to anyone. The Manning family, Tom Cruise (Even though a Scientologist has strong ties to my life and his movies portray the life of my ancestor Mickey Marcus (Last Samurai, A Few Good Men) and the first 20 years of my father's life (Born on the 4th of July) he was recruited at the same exact military station in Levittown, NY and joined the Marines to serve his country.
Please take me under your wing, offer me your love and salvation and I will provide your people with a lavish life full of love and prosperity. Please rescue me from this world of feces I hath resided in, I am poor yet humble and no one will offer me their hand to helpeth me arise back to my feet. I have seen the wicked conquer the children of Israel time and time again, this will stop now, it is our time to rise to arms and fight for what is ours. I need your love, so that I canth provide love onto the children of Israel. Before I go I must also separate the goat from the lamb, the goats will be exposed for their evil and they musteth convert or they will be demonished so our Kingdom that lasteth 1000 years can be fulfilled. The date 777 is among us when the Mother and the Father will come down from the sky and speaketh unto us. Destroy Microsoft, ransack their goods, the goods of the Hasid, Macy's Federated and dump all of your investments and put them into GE, Bayswater Uranium, Ukrops, McDonalds, Apple, The Green Energy Fund, or Berkshire Hathway, the Black Sabbath will come amongst the followers of Satan, the Judas. Burn all Seinfeld, Family Guy, 40 Year Old Virgin, Barbara Streisand, etc. Storm the houses of Bruckheimer, Gates, Seinfeld, Jason Alexander (Constanza) the offices of ICM, Interscope, Lieberman. These men will sit before the judgement seat of Christ, soon and all the sons of Judas and the non believers will face off against 300 men in a world televised fight. They shall convert to Islam, Christianity or Messianic Judaism, if they do not then I will not redeem their souls and they will perish in eternal hellfire. We will pull out of Iraq and Iran and disarm all of the Judas in Israel for our eternal salvation as the followers of myself Jesus Christ rest upon this.

THE REVOLUTION STARTS NOW!!!!




Do not touch the Beastie Boys or Herzberg Diamonds (For they are owned by Warren Buffett)


The Third Coming
The Rebirth of Christ
Son of the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus



"For we must all sit before the Judgement Seat of Christ, for that which he hath done in his body, whether it be good or bad
"Second Corinthians 5:12)

How does one keep his faith during times of war?

Faith is a personal quality which can be intoduced to another person but can not be forced upon them. Thus faith is totally opposed to the idea of force. It can only be shown in action by the one who professes to have faith. Yet every individual has within them the potential to have faith.

Question then becomes faith in what?

Most people follow the edict/religion of their parents. A logical mind is a good start to finding what suites the individual, however, it is the heart that must take over at some point in time in order for The Truth to manifest for that individual. The good news is that for such people The Truth is always the same. The thread always leads to the same conclusion, the same Reality.

What is that reality, well, one must find it within themselves. It would be futile for me to point to it since it is a moving target! and the road to it can be either treacherous or within a breath. I personally recommend the short cut!

So, once realised, how does one keep it? remarks like 'x is testing my faith.' or 'lost faith in x.' can only from someone who has not touched faith.

Faith is a quality once attained will never be lost. It is eternal. Yes it is tested under stress and at times of stife or wars, but the faithfull will never crumble down. In fact precisely at these times the faith shines much brighter just as a lit candle throws more light in a pitch-black room.

This connection once achieved with The Creator will never and can never be severed. It is a two way communication and not a one way communication. And it has the capacity to become clearer/increased as this communication continues Eternally and beyond the physical realm. Indeed one of its initial requirements is the believe in The Unseen. It is hidden from the ones who do not believe beyond their physical reality. Such is the nature of God's Pure and Unconditional Love that HE does not impose Himself upon His Creation (Wo/Man). We are left to our own devices to return home. This is the Loving Father that Christ was talking about. For love then becomes possessive if it is to be forced even one iota.

The lost sons and daughters must find their own way to The Father/Mother on their own accord. And when they do, imagine The Father's joy and pleasure of seeing His son come back not out of any obligation, fear of Hell or eyeing Heavens or inheritances but out of the son's Pure love to return Home. At that very time, all cycles are broken and shift happens to another spiritual dimension. Abrahamic faiths call it repentance/tawbbah. But I find that a harsh word for today's world. In essence it is a decision TO BE. One can not BE 21 until one reaches the age of 21. In the realm of spirituality this takes the form of a decision. Bang!!

The heart must seek and it shall find. Christ said: "Knock and the door shall open". 2000 years later, I say there never was nor is a door. God is closer to you than your jagular vein. HE is in your DNA. Question is: Whether you choose to believe that or not is purely your choice. If ever there was a Hell, then this separation is it.

However, what Christ meant is first You seek, then HE comes to you. The concept of a door has confused many thinking that it is an outside of the self, yet God can only reside in the heart of the faithful. PURITY can never be tained in a container that has love of the material world in it. the two just do not mix well.

Thus one can either have faith or not. Its like pregenancy: a woman can not be half pregenant. You are either this side or the other.

It is precisely for this matter that Christ said the only way to the Father is thro me, since he was indeed PURE. It is the only reason that Quran says the only way to God is through Islam, meaning Submission to the will of God and not the Islam that many Muslims and non-muslims here in these forums understand it to be. The root Arabic word for Islam is SLM, means peace. and thus peacefull submission is the proper way to describe a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian or indeed any other faith. If followed as intended in its PURE form it leads to GOD.

Purity must first come from the heart of the seeker. The rest will be taken care of just as a seed must first germinate, the natural weather, rain and sun and the earth comes into play to create the tree. All the physical and spiritual realities are there to glorify man for God is beyond need and He does not need to be glorified. HE is already THE GLORY in its PURE form. Absolute. We are the ones who are lost and must find. We glorify God when we respect each other and give our unconditional love and freedom for each other. Only then we can have a glimpse of what this love that heals and is a balm for all ofour seperation from each other and thus by deduction from God.

Oneness in action. Do not settle for anything less.

I wish this inner peace for every single being.

Thank you for the opportunity and your time.

WWJD? Well, it ain't what dubya and the GOP have done in the past 6 years, that's for sure.
Steve

Mary Cunningham,

I assume you were trapped by birth into Catholic orthodoxy as many of us were. Time to think outside the box.

Some starting points:

a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.
b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.
c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.
d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.
e. Jesus' Spirit resides in Heaven with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.
f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.
g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception

Jon - no, not prejudice, just that the majority of people are Christian - and I used to be, so it seemed like a good example to use. You don't have to be Christian to understand.

Here's a Jewish example, that I just posted on The Rabbi's thread - "There are no Jews on Christmas morning."

Maybe you're not Jewish, either. It doesn't matter. It's an example of an unintended slur.

So, Jon - what I say about anonymity reminds you of a pedohpile. I wonder if you'd have the nerve to say that to me in person.

You sound mean and spiteful, Jon - I probably wouldn't have the nerve to say that to your face either, but I do mean it.

EFAVORITE:

"assuming you’re Christian"

I am not. Is it your predudice that caused you to assume? Thats a bit ego-centered.

"One of the great things about this forum is that people with different perspectives can be frank in a way not easily done in person."

You remind me of the pedophile comfortable with his computer anonymity. Isn't it unwise and immature to think anything is to be gained by enjoyment of acts done in secret?

Cheers.

This is a truly good question, and there have been a few good answers… I’d like to share my own. Many years ago I started to question things, all things I had learned as a kid. I studied a lot, read a lot and thought things through. It started like this: If there is no god then…what? (I was raised going to a small Methodist church my whole life, it was never an option.) I worked on these questions for months, then years, and came to the conclusion that life, the universe and everything, made more sense if there was NOT a god. The big questions fell into place…why did the Jones family lose their house and three children in the tornado while the Smith’s lost nothing? Why did those children die at the hand of their own mother? Why is there so much suffering? Why did my wife cheat on me? Why are we at war? Why do bad things happen to good people? What happens when we die?
If you have ‘faith’, believe in a god, these questions are problematic at best. The various texts are vague and in some cases contradictory, (I know that someone will jump on this, so I’ll preemptively avoid that distraction by just asking “What happens when we die? And please cite your references and argue amongst yourselves.) So we enlist the aid of interpreters and priests, and prophets to explain them, again, and again, and again… some of them telling us that hurricanes are caused by tolerance for gay lifestyles, others saying that no, the problem is gambling. Who’s interpretation do we believe, which is the right one? ARRGH!!! I studied Catholicism, Mormonism, Buddhism, and about twenty flavors of American Protestant. They all seemed reasonable in a few places, but at some point all threw up their hands and shoved the answer into a mystical box… “Only God knows” which is pretty much saying, “It doesn’t make any consistent or logical sense.” Bottom line: “we don’t know”.
So people with faith in a god like thing or things can/must accept that there are some things we humans just don’t know, that don’t make sense logically, or spiritually. On that we are in complete agreement.
My faith says this…I don’t know where the universe came from; I don’t know when or where it’s going to end up.
I have faith, based on observation, logic, and lack of compelling reason to believe in one or more of the thousands of variations posited by all the religions that all require an unseen, omniscient, omnipresent , mysterious, mystical being of unknown origin itself, that when we die, our brain stops working, no more conscious thoughts, therefore no memory, awareness, reflex, sensation. Nothing, not even darkness since darkness requires awareness… it will be exactly like what it was like to be us a year before we were born.
Why are there wars? Because people created them. Why do people die in tornadoes, car crashes, etc…? Because of the non-mystical, totally physical forces at work. (Hold a eyedropper of water high above a thimble. How many drops make it into the thimble? Why not all of them? Simple, there are movements, breezes, inconsistencies in surface areas/volumes etc. Why would a tornado, hurricane or lightning bolt be any different?) Why do we need to insert a magical force between ourselves and the things we don’t like or quite understand?
If a storm kills a thousand, or only one. If a plane crashes and only one person survives, if a disease that kills a million spares a few, why do we need to attribute it to something more than it needs to be? Something that we in fact cannot understand?
I have a faith that does not waver, nor need to be rethought, or re-examined in times of war, peace, famine, prosperity, blight, flood, or personal distress.

The main problem is proselytizing, I wish all religions and non-believers alike would just make the information available and stop trying to convert the rest of us.

I do see some rational, informational thoughts on this site. Why turn it into a battle? I blame war on the leaders not the people. They are the ones brainwashing their followers into fighting the "evil" ones, when their real goal is money (oil or land)

Hi, Jon, No promises on not asking for specific examples in the future. As long as people make sweeping statements, I’ll ask them to back them up. First of all, I’m curious about exactly what they meant. Secondly, I think it’s important for people to be able to back up their statements if they want to be taken seriously. I’d still like you to point out the examples of atheists’ “ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and… immature, belligerent responses” on this forum. If you do, I promise not to challenge you on them. I really do want to know what you mean.

Regarding Rabbi Steinsaltz, are you suggesting that because he has an impressive bio that he should not be criticized? Some of the posters on that thread are hard on the Rabbi because he made what perhaps he doesn’t realize is a very insulting statement to atheists. He mentions that “there are no atheists in foxholes" as if it’s a completely true and accepted fact, when it’s actually just a saying with no known basis in reality. It implies that all atheists would be inspired by fear to believe in a supernatural entity that they had not believed in before.

He might know a lot about the Talmud, but he’s just demonstrated by repeating that cliché (talk about a tired device!) that he doesn’t know much about atheists and has a negative opinion of them as well.

I bet you’d be insulted if people who didn’t share your faith (assuming you’re Christian) frequently said things like “There are no Christians in science class” (presuming they’re too dumb to understand evolution) or “There are no Christians in a stampede” (presuming the instinct for self-preservation will supersede an obligation to help others).

One of the great things about this forum is that people with different perspectives can be frank in a way not easily done in person. I’d be horribly offended if the Rabbi made that remark in my presence, but doubt I’d have the nerve to call him on it. First of all, I’d be stunned that he said such a thing (I know because I’ve been in similar situations), then I’d be concerned about embarrassing him publicly. I figure he’s a good person who doesn’t know any better – yet. In this on-line discussion, he can get the unpleasant message privately, sitting in front of his computer – and as a result not embarrass himself or unwittingly malign atheists publicly again.

We atheists are affected by faith; living as we do in a world surrounded by the faithful. Many of us have come to our atheism as the result of a long, serious examination of our own faith.

Ms. Cunningham, we are people with a stake in this subject whether you like it or not. Call us names and tell us to shut up if you like, we're not going away. And please try not to generalize about atheists on the basis of the behaviour of a few; I try not to judge all believers by the behaviour of their worst examples and I'd appreciate the same respect and courtesy and return.

Regards

A Hermit

There is no god. Get over it.

efavorite:

"I hadn't noticed that -- could you give some examples?"

Please promise that's the last time you post this question. I don't read here often and I still recognize it as your tired device.

Read completely through Rabbi Steinsaltz' bio and then go to his thread and read how your fellow faithless respond to him.

For more than 40 years, “On Faith” panelist Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has devoted himself to the monumental undertaking of translating and reinterpreting the Talmud, the vast collection of rabbinic writings that constitute Jewish civil and religious laws. Steinsaltz, who lives in Jerusalem, began this task in 1965, when he founded The Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications. The Steinsaltz Edition of the Talmud, of which 37 volumes have been published so far, has made the Talmud accessible to tens of thousands of Hebrew speakers. In 1989, he began producing an English edition of 22 volumes. Since 1994, 15 volumes have been published in French, and four have appeared in Russian. The Talmud project has been described as the most important Jewish publication endeavor of the 20 th Century. Steinsaltz has written some 60 books and hundreds of articles on a wide variety of topics, including Hasidism and the Jewish mystical tradition of Kabbalah. One of his most popular books is The Thirteen Petalled Rose , which he describes as “a little book for the soul.” In 1989, Steinsaltz established a Russian branch of Mekor Chaim--the first Jewish institution to receive official recognition in the former Soviet Union . He also founded the Aleph Society, and the Mekor Chaim Educational Institutions. In 1988, Steinsaltz received the prestigious Israel Prize--his nation's highest honor. He has lectured at major universities and research institutions in the United States and Europe, including Princeton University , Yale University , Columbia University , the Woodrow Wilson Center , Oxford University and the Sorbonne.

Cheers.

Jon, you ask "Have you noticed how ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and prone to give immature, belligerant responses most of the atheists posting here are?"

I hadn't noticed that -- could you give some examples?

Mary,

Have you noticed how ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and prone to give immature, belligerant responses most of the atheists posting here are?

An atheist has no answer for the question:

"How do you keep your faith in times of war."

A wise man with no faith would have refrained from answering. All the atheist panel members did -but for one who began her post:

"I did not originally intend to respond to this question, because its underlying premises--first, that it is, a priori, a good thing to "keep" faith and second, that war poses a unique challenge to faith--seem to me irredeemably flawed."

And you'll note her thread has the most responses.

Perry Clarke & all,

Thing is the evangelical atheists are proselytizing every bit as much as, say, Mr Engardio Jeho's Witnesses; yet, they will deny it and say they are mere debunkers. Yet atheists almost always tend to be humanists--as in man is the measure of all things--scientists--we don't know everything now but we *will*--and materialists. All of these are philosophical traditions.

Christianity OTOH is not about man, but about God as revealed through his Son, Jesus Christ, about humanity's innate corruption--we are, after all, part of the material world--and about redemption. Their Christian faith gives some of humanity a purpose in this world--the Jesuit saying: "We are on this earth to praise God and to seek salvation." (Praising includes doing His work to relieve the suffering of the poorest, &tc.)

The two worldviews clash, and that is putting it mildly. Atheism IMO offers very little but that is what you would expect me to say, wouldn't you?

Still, the blog's description as being "On Faith" is highly inaccurate. The experience here reminds me of a theatre: the Christians as well as a few acknowledged and unacknowledged atheists like Spong, Jacoby, Crossan, Dennett, &tc. are up on stage performing...for the atheists. The atheists on the stage throw eggs at the believers in the audience. The atheists in the audience throw eggs at the believers on the stage (who are protected) and also at any believers in the audience they can find (Catholics are the same as Nazis, Catholics are all sad0-maschocists, evangelicals are stupid &tc.)

But most believers in the audience have already walked out.

Perry Clark,

I'm an agnostic pantheist and I suggest that participation by non-believers in a faith forum is not just welcome but vital. I'm not talking about pointless name-calling practiced by a vocal minority of atheists. I'm talking about reasoned rebuttals of theistic doctrine. Unlike atheism, the various religions make exclusive claims to truth that define humanity in offensive and negative ways. Doctrines such as original sin and eternal damnation should not stand without being challenged. Claims that natural disasters and human tragedies are punishments from angry gods should likewise not go unchallenged.

Perry- Maybe Efavorite is dyslexic and has made a letter reversal on the first word in the name of this forum. Lets give him a chance.. : )

The question depends on the definition of faith. Some people might have faith in a bright future, one where humanity may learn to settle international disputes without war. Some people might have faith in the existence of a supreme being.

Perry Clark – I appreciate your comments and want to respond to them. First, let me make it clear that the “truth” I’m aware of is that Christianity is built on a house of cards – from the mythology of the old testament to the embellishments and borrowings of the new testament to the self-serving origins and dogma of the early Roman Church. I learned this through intense research, classes and discussions with current and former clergy.

When I mention participating in the Mass at family occasions, please be aware that everyone there (except clergy) knows I’m no longer a Catholic. Most of them aren’t either. In fact, I’d guess that most if not all family occasions in the last 10 years have been funerals, not weddings, as no relatives are getting married in the church any more. And the funerals were arranged long ago, by helpful Catholic funeral directors, in cooperation with parish priests, who sold all-inclusive funeral packages to the faithful. The services have been run by tired, crotchety priests who don’t bother even to learn how to pronounce the deceased’s name, and who run through the prayers like they can’t wait to get out of there and get a drink. At the most recent funeral, when we were all assembled in the church for the mass, the priest welcomed us (how nice) then asked how many had been in that church before (about 1/3 of us). He then proceeded to give an animated talk (in stark contrast to the prayers the night before) on the recent massive improvements to the church, mentioning the high costs associated with each improvement. So tell me, who’s mocking whom?

I suggest to you that the reason it seems that atheists are “proselytizing” here is that you and many others in our society who are not accustomed to hearing religion being criticized, perceive non-believers participating in a public discussion of faith as commandeering it. Just as it would be inappropriate (in my opinion) for atheists to disrupt a religious service in a church to express their views, I think it’s inappropriate for believers to expect non-believers not to participate and express their opinions in an OPEN PUBLIC FORUM on the subject of faith. Please consider hearing the voices that have been suppressed so long in the public arena is a form of consciousness raising that should not only be tolerated, but might actually be a good thing for understanding among people of various religions and people of no religion.

Finally. Probably Christians should study the spirit of Jesus instead of his death.

Yes. Any ancient book must be read with extreme caution. History never forgives. Interpolations are many in every of them. Authors? Usually too many for naming only one. It is the intent to reach an enough objective spirit what has any meaning. Let's think about The God of the Old testament and the Christian one. The Lord of the Jews defending them and punishing opponents against a Father loving his criatures and taking care of them, even forgiven when the Son is killed by them. Certainly the historic Jesus was centered on Juddish people. But he was probably the seed for any spreading out of the local scenario. There was any empathy broken any racial criterium.

Perry Clark. Is not any time of war a time for proving God even among long-standing believers?

Once again, we need to think about the God "communicators" i.e the founders of today's major religions:

Please review and comment on the following:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe that Abraham was a real person.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

GARYD--

I understand, and I apologize for failing to better comprehend when I first read your comment.

E Favorite--

Your comments sadden me more. You seem willing to claim knowledge of the truth, but unwilling to live it amongst those closest to you--your family and friends. And somehow you find it to fit well with your truth to mock the beliefs, faith, and practices of others--beliefs that, based on your own comments here, I fear you don't understand, in spite of your having been "raised Catholic". Do the inconsistencies you describe in your own behavior not tell you something?

With regards to private vs. public forums, I think the matter is moot. Not only can there be, but there are, and no doubt will continue to be, private arenas for discussion of pretty much any sort, "On Faith" or not. Some of my comments have been made with the aim of pointing this forum, in my own small way, toward the discussion the operators/moderators/owners ostensibly wish to have, based on the name of the forum, and the question at hand.

It seems to me that you (and some others here) have more of a problem than I--a problem with the very notion of public discussion of faith in which the aim is not to denigrate, mock, or destroy it, but rather to consider how it might best be maintained, strengthened, and nurtured in the face of some of the greater difficulties in life.

I am trying to address, in a forum designed, built, and operated, as it were, by others, the question put on the table for discussion. Attacks on faith disguised as "comments"--ill-disguised, at that--seem to me to be the uninvited guests at this particular event.

You're right--it's a free country, and I would not wish it less free. But I would wish it more civil, courteous, and respectful. As an example: I'm sure there exists a public forum in which a discussion among, of, and for some topic (let's say dog-fighting, for example) is ongoing. Would my comments on the activity, being, as they no doubt would, heavy on the criticism of what I see as a brutal, inhumane, and ugly thing, be welcome? Or would these comments be considered unwelcome in the discussion?

That is why I object to the proselytizing atheist commandeering a discussion of faith.

Jesus told us to worship God, not him. Modern evangelical Christianity has become a joke. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Our so called Christian leaders would have a modern Jesus monitored by the FBI and probably 'taken out' eventually for 'subversive' activities like preaching about peace. They'd call him a liberal Commie Islamist, frame him in a staged 'terrorist plot' and crucify him all over again..

Perry Clark - Don't be sad. I was raised Catholic. I loved all the incense and Latin and I love the truth more.

Now that I know it, I'm more hopeful and happy than ever before. Different strokes for different folks. When I'm at a family funeral or wedding, I go through all the Catholic motions. It's reminiscent of lovely Sunday mornings in church with my father. I even take communion, knowing it's a SIN. I admit I do it to feel naughty and to mock the church. Mainly though, I do it as a family thing. I know it makes people in my family feel good that we all participate. Too bad it has to be in drinking the (supposedly real, transubstantiated) body and blood of a ancient Jewish carpenter who was purposely murdered by his own father to atone for the sins that the same father cursed all of humanity with. I manage to put those ghoulish thoughts out of my mind for the few occasions when I take communion these days. It's just a pleasant family thing.

Want to have a private conversation among the faithful? I'm sure it can be arranged. Meanwhile, this is a public forum, operating in a country that is a secular democracy that offers freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I was responding to vercinget's post prior to mine.

Gary--When did this turn into a discussion about "proving God"?

Mary Cunningham--

I think we share the same disappointment, seasoned (at least for me) with no small bit of cynicism, over the fact that it seems impossible, at least in this venue, to have a public forum "On Faith" that serves as anything other than, as you've noted, a platform for the militantly atheist--those who aren't content with their own lack of faith, but rather feel compelled to convert all to hopelessness.

As we see herein, all too many of the comments are merely fatuous and/or disingenuous attacks, usually based on the fact that--gasp!--all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Thus--or so they would have it--there really is no difference between Catholics and Nazis. Well, they may be ambivalent about choosing between the two when it comes to inviting someone to dinner, or to stay the weekend, or marry a daughter. In which case I feel sorry for them, because they cannot see anything but what they've already chosen to see, and in their blindness, the Light will come and go without their knowing. And for that, I am sad.

Yet a God who claims salvation by grace and grace alone could not be a God that one could prove purely by human logic save indirectly.

Finally. Logic and reason have a broad reach. The deduction method allows to affirm an alternative among all the possible ones even unknowing its implicit truth. If the other ones are wrong and something is still evident then that unknown one has to be true. Reason could be able to reach unreason.