Times of War

:))

In the book The Last Days of Innocence—America at War, 1917-1918, the prologue makes clear that when using the term “the last days,” the book refers to a specific time, one in which there has been a tremendous decay in morals.
“In 1914,” the prologue explains, “the country was changing more rapidly than at any time in its history.” Indeed, the year 1914 marked a plunge into war worldwide, which had not been experienced before. The book says: “This was total war, the conflict not of army against army but nation against nation.”
This war occurred at the beginning of what the Bible terms “the last days.” That this world would experience before its actual end a specific time called “the last days” is a teaching of the Bible. The Bible, in fact, says that today’s world will end. Yet, those who serve God will survive the end, as did Noah and his family.—2 Peter 2:5; 3:6; Genesis 7:21-24; 1 John 2:17.
Jesus Christ also spoke of “the days of Noah,” when “the flood came and swept them all away.” He compared conditions that existed before the Flood—just prior to the end of that world—with those that would prevail during the time that he identified as “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3, 37-39) Other Bible translations use the expression “the end of the world” or “the end of the age.”—The Jerusalem Bible, The New English Bible, and the New International Version.
Jesus foretold what life would be like on earth just before the world’s end. Regarding war, he said: “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.” Historians have noted that this occurred beginning in 1914. Thus, the prologue of the aforementioned book spoke of 1914 as marking the beginning of “total war, . . . not of army against army but nation against nation.”
In his prophecy, Jesus added: “There will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” He went on to say that among other things there would be an “increasing of lawlessness.” (Matthew 24:7-14)
What should our lives be like during times of war?
Historians say that while human society then sank ever deeper into moral decay, “the little Christian communities were troubling the pleasure-mad pagan world with their piety and their decency.” A Christian should stand out as different, as morally upright, unlike those who carry on immorally?’—1 Peter 4:3, 4.
The Bible teaches us that despite the immorality surrounding us, we need to be “blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation.” To do this, we need to keep “a tight grip on the word of life.” (Philippians 2:15, 16) This Bible statement provides the key to how Christians can remain untainted by moral corruption—they need to hold fast to the teachings of God’s Word and recognize that its moral standards represent the best way of living.
The Bible says that when this world passes away, “the wicked one will be no more.” It also says: “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.” (Psalm 37:10, 11; Proverbs 2:20-22) So the earth will be cleansed of all remnants of war, including all those who refuse to abide by the teachings of our Creator. An earthly paradise, similar to that in which God placed the first human pair, will then gradually be cultivated earth wide by lovers of God.—Genesis 2:7-9.
Among those who will be privileged to see it will be the billions resurrected from the dead. Rejoice in God’s promises: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” “[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”—Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4.

Lepidopteryx:
I do not have ‘faith’ that humanity will pick itself up by it’s bootstraps. I have HOPE that it will, but no delusions that it will ultimately succeed, or especially that it is destined to succeed… nor that humanity is any more special-er than anything else crawling around consuming and out-gassing. My faith is in fact, as you phrased it, only a ‘negative faith’ I do not believe that there is a deity of any kind. Outside of that, not much more. I believe only that I / we are here, now. No plan, no purpose, no meaning whatsoever. It really is quite liberating!
I do not believe in destiny, fate, afterlife, eternal reward or punishment, cosmic justice, divine protection, salvation, karma, reincarnation, or that that I have any more cosmic or spiritual value, worth or significance than other creatures around me. I’m born, I mature, with any luck I reproduce, I die, I decompose, I fertilize. Everything else we pretty much make up as we go along, best to try to make a good run at it.
I believe that here, now, there is a violent and somewhat fragile physical balance within nature that makes us, here, and now, possible. I only have to look up to the other planets to recognize how unlikely, statistically improbable, and cosmically delicate this balance is.. I do not believe that life on earth is either planned or infinite, nor in fact, special, just unusual.
The foxhole is a lonely, scary place whether atheist or believer. In the foxhole I’ve got my wits, my training, my gear to help me, no guaranties there either. My purpose is to survive, and then to help my buddies to survive and hope they do the same, and sometimes that means dropping the enemy before he can draw a bead on me. I could call up to a wispy god to drop a mighty Kevlar umbrella around us, but I’d be a damned fool, and a lousy soldier to expect it to occur. ‘Cause bottom line, if indeed there are no atheists in foxholes, then the benevolent god they’re calling to has apparently ignored millions of them in the past hundred or so years….

Brief Overview of Congressman Paul's Record
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

LETS GIVE OUR CHILDREN A CHANCE!

LETS KEEP AMERICA FOR AMERICAN's!

VOTE: RON PAUL COME 2008!

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/about/

I hit enter too many times and the last post went in before I was done.

The faith of the atheist is just as valid as the faith of any theist.

On the question of atheists and faith:

The atheists I know DO have faith. It is not a negative faith (as in "I have faith that there is no such thing as a deity of any kind"). Rather it is a positive faith (as in "I have faith in humanity's ability to pull itself up by its own bootstraps").
And that faith takes just as much work to maintain in the face of war as faith in the paradox of a benevolent deity who allows/causes awful things to happen.

Perry Clark - Instead of saying “You and some of the others here seem to be not-so-subtly trying to say that believers cannot have a public conversation to which they've been invited without having to listen to atheistic diatribes.” I’d put it this way: “Believers cannot expect to have a public conversation to which believers and non-believers have been invited without hearing atheistic points of views.”

Similar statements could be made about women and men, gays and straights, Whites and Blacks. The world is changing, Perry. Atheists, like other disenfranchised groups before them, are not going to “sit quietly” in the background any more.

E Favorite--

You're right, you did not specify that the other family members were non-believers, though you described them just as you did yourself--that is, "no longer Catholic". I improperly assumed this to mean they shared your viewpoint. I apologize.

That said, I don't see how it changes materially the scenario. You and your family are still falsely participating in something in which you don't believe, and which, at least in your case, you seem to hold in contempt, and you do so apparently reveling in that sentiment. Of this I cannot approve.

To say that I've wandered off topic in trying to show that we were already off topic is simply an attempt to spread blame, rather than acknowledge what's been done by yourself and others. It's merely the old "See, you're doing it too!" bit, and just as that is usually disingenuous, I find the contention the same here.

You're right in that I may well not have noticed as quickly had the conversation "evolved" in a direction of which I approved. But that, too, is not really what's at hand, is it? And it still fails to address the point that atheists lecturing about the futility of faith in a conversation ostensibly about how one maintains faith may be considered rude, even unwelcome.

You and some of the others here seem to be not-so-subtly trying to say that believers cannot have a public conversation to which they've been invited without having to listen to atheistic diatribes.

The only rationale of which I can conceive that both supports your actions and withstands logical scrutiny is that you believe it more important and better for the world that you voice your disappointment with religion than that you sit quietly while believers attempt to share ways in which they seek and obtain nurturing for their faith. Which to me seems highly presumptuous.

Had this thread been entitled something like "What role does faith have, if any, in facing times of war?", I would have expected the sort of comments you and others have provided attacking the very idea that faith has any utility whatsoever. But it didn't. It asked "How do you maintain your faith in times of war?" Unfortunately, because the conversation was forced in a given direction, it never proved as useful and interesting as it might have been, at least from the perspective of a believer. Note that I didn't say "evolved"--evolution, at least the biological entity, has no direction, no "progress". This thread, however, was certainly pushed in a certain direction.

Perry Clark & EFavorite:

Thank you for your kind remarks. As I am sure many of us have, I read and post fairly often on these things to sharpen my own debating points, not to win converts, and not because I doubt my own convictions.
On some of the other blogs, which after a few days typically are reduced to sophomoric spats, name calling, and nano-splitting semantic hairs, I had mentioned that “I have no faith”, and was pummeled by a zealot or two that since I believe in something that can not be proven, that there is NO god, that this in fact required a degree of faith. So, why not.. I have faith, but I can not prove it, that there is no supreme being / creator / intelligent designer. I can not point at the drippings from a particle accelerator or zoom in on the fuzzy, yet greatly retouched images from the Hubble telescope and say “See! That proves it!” I don’t anticipate I ever will be able to prove it, but it is indeed what I believe.
Finding myself in a foxhole, at the sharp end of an attackers stick, or falling from a high building really doesn’t change this, I may be swearing, screaming in terror, or relieving myself uncontrollably, but I am sure I will not be struggling with whether this tragedy was because I prayed in the wrong language, or lusted in my heart….

Seems to me, Perry Clark, that you’ve gone seriously off-topic yourself by spending many words on how atheists go off-topic. If you read any of these threads, you’ll see that conversations often evolve – it’s a natural thing that people do. I suspect you wouldn’t even notice it if the topic drifted into something you found appropriate, i.e., something pro-faith.

As to my family, somehow you’ve determined that they are mainly non-believers, when what I said is that most of them are no longer Catholics. A little different, eh? Maybe some of them are atheists. It’s not important. We’re just family, enjoying being together, even at funerals. We don’t expect much from the church – never have, but now it’s a joke when we have occasion to go back and see clergy’s disrespect and disdain. Yes, we’re going through the motions, for the deceased. There’s only one left in that generation and I feel sure he will not want a Catholic funeral.

You assert that faith cannot be reasoned. I agree, but many intelligent and logically thinking Christians on the forum think it can and try valiantly until they ultimately “agree to disagree” with their atheist challenger. Faith is ultimately illogical. Facts, in the end, are immaterial, if you believe and continue to, in spite of the facts.

Sorry for the editing problem--here is the post without JOHNGALT's post included at the end, in order to avoid confusion as to who said what.

JOHNGALT--

Tsk, tsk, temper, temper. "How dare (I)!" How dare I what? Ask that the forum try to get to and remain on topic? Oh, the horrors! How dare I ask how the faithless can have anything useful or meaningful to say about the maintenance of faith? Or perhaps it's "How dare I do anything but roll over and take my whipping like a good little Christian?"

I think that if you'll go back and read--calmly, mind you--my previous posts, you'll find that I've not suggested that "atheists NOT have a voice or be invited". Nor did I ever claim this forum to be mine. (You really reached quickly for that little straw man and then pummeled him with a shovel, didn't you?)

Did I suggest that I have cornered the truth? If you could show me where I did that, I'd appreciate it.

After perusing your own posited questions, I would still suggest that none of them, including the first you put forward, really has much to do with the specific topic at hand, namely, "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?"

I'm sorry to say that your questions, while of the "it sure sounded like a smart question during the late-night bull session" variety, show little understanding--and, meanwhile, much presumption--of what many Christians believe.

Your first question, for instance, says that God "insist(s) that (we) suffer and die in order to be saved".

Well, no. Suffering was brought into the world by sin, by our own mistakes and bullheadedness. Salvation comes not by suffering, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who in His perfection suffered and died--unwarrantedly--so that those who believe might live eternally with their Father in Heaven.

Secondly, your query about how/why the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason implies, in its tone and context, that Christians take faith as making reason unnecessary, even worthless. Far from the truth. But, that said, given that there are things we cannot know, cannot explain, cannot understand, faith must play a part if we are to believe that there is anything at all beyond what we see here. We merely refuse to let reason deny faith.

The question about which is more "moral" is simply nonsensical.

Finally, I think a perfect being DID do better. But we mucked it up. And "godschool dropout"? My, my, but isn't that clever. Or at least clever-sounding, which is all most really shoot for 'round here.

I am sorry that I seem to have offended you with me earlier remarks. I encourage you to read them again, trying to understand rather than looking for ways in which to disagree and/or attack. Then consider the question I posited: What of meaning/utility can an atheist have to say to a believer about the maintenance of faith? After all, the question posted by the moderators still reads: "How do you keep your faith in times of war?"

Do you think you can answer that question in a way I might find helpful?

JOHNGALT--

Tsk, tsk, temper, temper. "How dare (I)!" How dare I what? Ask that the forum try to get to and remain on topic? Oh, the horrors! How dare I ask how the faithless can have anything useful or meaningful to say about the maintenance of faith? Or perhaps it's "How dare I do anything but roll over and take my whipping like a good little Christian?"

I think that if you'll go back and read--calmly, mind you--my previous posts, you'll find that I've not suggested that "atheists NOT have a voice or be invited". Nor did I ever claim this forum to be mine. (You really reached quickly for that little straw man and then pummeled him with a shovel, didn't you?)

Did I suggest that I have cornered the truth? If you could show me where I did that, I'd appreciate it.

After perusing your own posited questions, I would still suggest that none of them, including the first you put forward, really has much to do with the specific topic at hand, namely, "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?"

I'm sorry to say that your questions, while of the "it sure sounded like a smart question during the late-night bull session" variety, show little understanding--and, meanwhile, much presumption--of what many Christians believe.

Your first question, for instance, says that God "insist(s) that (we) suffer and die in order to be saved".

Well, no. Suffering was brought into the world by sin, by our own mistakes and bullheadedness. Salvation comes not by suffering, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who in His perfection suffered and died--unwarrantedly--so that those who believe might live eternally with their Father in Heaven.

Secondly, your query about how/why the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason implies, in its tone and context, that Christians take faith as making reason unnecessary, even worthless. Far from the truth. But, that said, given that there are things we cannot know, cannot explain, cannot understand, faith must play a part if we are to believe that there is anything at all beyond what we see here. We merely refuse to let reason deny faith.

The question about which is more "moral" is simply nonsensical.

Finally, I think a perfect being DID do better. But we mucked it up. And "godschool dropout"? My, my, but isn't that clever. Or at least clever-sounding, which is all most really shoot for 'round here.

I am sorry that I seem to have offended you with me earlier remarks. I encourage you to read them again, trying to understand rather than looking for ways in which to disagree and/or attack. Then consider the question I posited: What of meaning/utility can an atheist have to say to a believer about the maintenance of faith? After all, the question posted by the moderators still reads: "How do you keep your faith in times of war?"

Do you think you can answer that question in a way I might find helpful?

How dare you all! Why should atheists NOT have a voice or be "invited" to YOUR private "public" forum? Do you really believe you have cornered the TRUTH? Let me pose a few questions for you (in no particular order, though the first is in reference to the topic at hand):

Why does a "god" that fears no death insist that his "creations" suffer and die in order to be saved? (This includes Jesus, because, if he was God, he knew it was all transitory and it didn't really matter, and if he wasn't, then he wasn't God. Or did he just forget that he was God?

Regardless of your faith, why is it that the "unknowable", "unprovable" or, if you prefer, the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason, especially since your "creator" also created the "gift" of "reason". In short, you must deny the "gift" your creator gave you in order to achieve eternal reward. How marvelous!

Is it more "moral" for an atheist to feed a starving man, or for a believer who anticipates getting into "heaven" by his actions?

Don't you think that a "perfect" being could have done better? I mean, entropy is such a bummer!

Why does your "perfect" God's works (the Universe in general) look like the work of a godschool dropout with a pack of cosmic matches and enough raw material to start a really good inferno? Such chaos out there!

DENSBTLY--

I read your post twice, and was impressed by your thoughtfulness. But I still have the question: What, exactly, do you have faith in? To say that you believe nothing happens that can't be explained by the Laws of Physics is, as far as I can tell, to say that you have no faith, for you do no believe in things unknowable, things unseen, things unproved. To have faith that the apple will fall not far from the tree is to have no faith at all. Protestations noted.

E Favorite--

You have spoken again of the truth that you're aware of--that Christianity is built on a house of cards. I think I can understand how you might think that way, but since the entire foundation of Christianity is one of faith (the overall topic of this forum), and faith cannot be, by its very nature, "reasoned", any notion that you've become aware of this particular truth fails to address the very issues at hand.

You've described in more detail some of your experiences in the Catholic faith, and also mentioned that all or nearly all of your church-going experiences have been at family funerals where apparently everyone (or nearly everyone) except the priest is a non-believer. A scene which, when pictured, makes me scratch my head again, wondering why, if all of you are atheists, you're having a church funeral. I suppose you might all be seeing off the last few Christians in the family, but you're still deliberately choosing to act what is in essence a lie, it seems to me. I would think that to be a very hollow, unpleasant experience no matter what else.

I'm truly sorry that the church experiences you've had, especially recently, have been less than fulfilling. I'm also quite happy that mine have been the opposite. While I would never claim that every minute in every service wings me transcendantly heavenward, I will say that there are moments of joy, peace, and love that I've experienced only there.

A note on proselytizing again. This particular "conversation" is entitled by the moderators "How do you keep your faith in times of war?" Are the pronouns inconsequential? Do you really think that this should serve as an invitation to those who have no faith to jump to the dais and expound on the failures of religion and try to tear down the faith of others?

I'm very accustomed to having faith and religion criticized and questioned--the idea that one can live in our society and NOT experience such is, frankly, laughable. I shan't waste more time on that. The expectation that I had upon reading the topic question was one of hearing/reading from, by, and about others of faith as the question was addressed. You seem to be telling me that this was and is an unreasonable expectation, simply because it's a public conversation. Well, to again consider other public conversations--if one attends a public gathering of Christians, at a revival, say, would it be appropriate to commandeer the event for one's own purposes? Is that civil, courteous, and respectful, to use the words I used in my previous post?

Finally, I don't expect, nor have I ever said, that unbelievers are or should be unwelcome to post in any open public forum. I do think, however, that one should respect the forum, its moderators, and participants, and that being respectful means abiding by certain expectations of courtesy and keeping more or less on topic. Once more, I fail to see any way in which you or any other atheist posting herein about your opinions on how religious faith is worthless, empty, "built on a house of cards", or whatever, successfully addresses the question put forward. "How do YOU keep YOUR faith in times of war?" It seems to me that the only honest answer an atheist can have to the query is something along the lines of "I don't have a faith to keep; it's simply not an issue for me."

Given what's been said, I believe it reasonable to say that this particular discussion, begun by the moderators with this particular question, is by its very nature only usefully addressable by those with a faith to keep.

Nowhere along the way has anyone answered these points; the only argument proffered has been along First Amendment lines: it's a free country, etc., etc. To which I say, "True. Irrelevant."

I would like to point out that I agree that open, honest, heartfelt, courteous discussion of topics of religion can be a very good thing. I simply don't believe that all discussions can be all things to all people.

Respectful Jon,

Do not judge ,or you too will be judged.Matthew 7.1

Do not judge,and you will not be judged.Luke 6.37

Vercinget--

You speak as if a time of war is automatically, and unquestionably, a time for "proving God". While I can understand a wish that it be so, that does not make it so.

perry clark, mary cunningham & jon, et al:

How dare you all! Why should atheists NOT have a voice or be "invited" to YOUR private "public" forum? Do you really believe you have cornered the TRUTH? Let me pose a few questions for you (in no particular order, though the first is in reference to the topic at hand):

Why does a "god" that fears no death insist that his "creations" suffer and die in order to be saved? (This includes Jesus, because, if he was God, he knew it was all transitory and it didn't really matter, and if he wasn't, then he wasn't God. Or did he just forget that he was God?

Regardless of your faith, why is it that the "unknowable", "unprovable" or, if you prefer, the "supernatural" takes precedence over reason, especially since your "creator" also created the "gift" of "reason". In short, you must deny the "gift" your creator gave you in order to achieve eternal reward. How marvelous!

Is it more "moral" for an atheist to feed a starving man, or for a believer who anticipates getting into "heaven" by his actions?

Don't you think that a "perfect" being could have done better? I mean, entropy is such a bummer!

Why does your "perfect" God's works (the Universe in general) look like the work of a godschool dropout with a pack of cosmic matches and enough raw material to start a really good inferno? Such chaos out there!

From iraqtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRaQRbbu1jA

Densbtly, Thanks for your post. It was lovely. I’m saving it

Brothers and Sisters of the Cross, the True Children of Israel, (The Christians, Messianic Jews, and Muslims)
I saw your late night ad last night on cable television, you predicted the coming of Christ. Good news Mr. Graham, it is me you hath been seeking.
I have gone through the trials and tribulations of Christ in a matter of months and was incarcerated for 7 days, my bond trial was held in Room 316, I walked back to my room and flipped through the Old and New Testament and unto me came the words of Ezekiel 3:16. I am the real deal, I have developed new political and business models worth hundreds of trillions of dollars annually. I however am not the Second Coming you hath been seeking, I am the third. I am a descendent of family ties to the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus who created the Army Ranger School, established Israel as a nation, was the only foreign solider to fight and die for Israel, he worked for the NY Attorney Generals office, he prosecuted the Mafia an hath been immortalized in the Kirk Douglas movie Cast an Iron Shadow, he is the Second Comign for he hath die at the hands of the Judas even after saving them from the wrath of Adolph Hitler. After I figured out that the pure blood Jews are evil, they promote Freedom of Choice which is Death, Freedom of Speech which is Hate Speech and liberal propaganda against Bush, Christ and our heavenly father. For I am not the father or the Holy Spirit however we exist in a pyramid relationship, with all three of us operating separately yet being God simultaneously. I have created great political, social and business reforms such as Democratic Conservatism, what this does is reaches the mass audience of voters vs the 50/50 split, it still has checks and balances however these checks exist at the Presidential Cabinet level which will be composed of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians as well as Democratic Conservatives (Southern Democrats). I am not just a Christian, I am Jewish and speak the tongue of Judas, not fluently and thank the Father that I was never Bar Mitzvahed. Mickey Marcus was a great man who gaveth everything unto the Judas and they still took his life, it is prophesized however that my life wilth not be taketh by the Judas for I will restore the world to howeth that exist before the creation of "Original Sin" by the Judas and his followers. The Jews appear weak and feeble, humorous and funny but they promote evil and the words and actions of Satan. After I hath discovered the evil of the Judas and his seed the claw of Satan thus appeareth on my window, I used great force and wiped it away immediately. The Holy Wars are over and the last battle of Medaggo will be won as prophesized by the the believers of the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ who I thus be and the believers of Allah and Adonai. You are a very special man and I believeth that you can help me come out of my shell to reveal my true powers to the world and better society. I hope my pleas do not falleth upon deaf ears, for I am the one you seeketh, I am the Savior of Man and will rule like Octavious Caesar, I will bring great prosperity to the world and eliminate the debt of my children and followers for we will all liveth as Kings in the Kingdom of Heaven under my rule. My birthday is 01/20/84
(20)-(1+8+4)=7. The divine number of the father and Christ himself. I am shocked at the powers I possess being just a Jewish child growing up in a small southern town but for centuries my cometh hath been prophesized. Another example, 911 was not an attack against the U.S. and George Bush it was prophesized by Nostradamus himself and was an attack on the Judas and their controlling of the world financial markets. The divine hand of the father delivered George and Jeb Bush to throw the election in Florida by getting the people of the Judas to vote for Buchanan the greatest anti semite alive, this made sure that Lieberman would not be in office to promote the Judas' control and American occupation of Israel. If Lieberman was in then the Muslims would hath been destroyed forever. I was born in Jacksonville, NC the greatest concentration of American military power and training grounds, then moveth to Quantico base and the city of the greatest Southern War Victory. My birthday also falls on the inauguration of the President and Lee, Jackson, King day the 3 greatest Southern leaders knowth to man. I have only studied religion for a matter of hours but my brain reacheth to the heaven it is far different from that of a regular mortal. The Judas exists in Bill Gates himself and his followers Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Bruckheimer, Jason Alexander, Steven Spielberg, they haveth so much yet do not give to anyone. The Manning family, Tom Cruise (Even though a Scientologist has strong ties to my life and his movies portray the life of my ancestor Mickey Marcus (Last Samurai, A Few Good Men) and the first 20 years of my father's life (Born on the 4th of July) he was recruited at the same exact military station in Levittown, NY and joined the Marines to serve his country.
Please take me under your wing, offer me your love and salvation and I will provide your people with a lavish life full of love and prosperity. Please rescue me from this world of feces I hath resided in, I am poor yet humble and no one will offer me their hand to helpeth me arise back to my feet. I have seen the wicked conquer the children of Israel time and time again, this will stop now, it is our time to rise to arms and fight for what is ours. I need your love, so that I canth provide love onto the children of Israel. Before I go I must also separate the goat from the lamb, the goats will be exposed for their evil and they musteth convert or they will be demonished so our Kingdom that lasteth 1000 years can be fulfilled. The date 777 is among us when the Mother and the Father will come down from the sky and speaketh unto us. Destroy Microsoft, ransack their goods, the goods of the Hasid, Macy's Federated and dump all of your investments and put them into GE, Bayswater Uranium, Ukrops, McDonalds, Apple, The Green Energy Fund, or Berkshire Hathway, the Black Sabbath will come amongst the followers of Satan, the Judas. Burn all Seinfeld, Family Guy, 40 Year Old Virgin, Barbara Streisand, etc. Storm the houses of Bruckheimer, Gates, Seinfeld, Jason Alexander (Constanza) the offices of ICM, Interscope, Lieberman. These men will sit before the judgement seat of Christ, soon and all the sons of Judas and the non believers will face off against 300 men in a world televised fight. They shall convert to Islam, Christianity or Messianic Judaism, if they do not then I will not redeem their souls and they will perish in eternal hellfire. We will pull out of Iraq and Iran and disarm all of the Judas in Israel for our eternal salvation as the followers of myself Jesus Christ rest upon this.

THE REVOLUTION STARTS NOW!!!!




Do not touch the Beastie Boys or Herzberg Diamonds (For they are owned by Warren Buffett)


The Third Coming
The Rebirth of Christ
Son of the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus



"For we must all sit before the Judgement Seat of Christ, for that which he hath done in his body, whether it be good or bad
"Second Corinthians 5:12)

Brothers and Sisters of the Cross, the True Children of Israel, (The Christians, Messianic Jews, and Muslims)
I saw your late night ad last night on cable television, you predicted the coming of Christ. Good news Mr. Graham, it is me you hath been seeking.
I have gone through the trials and tribulations of Christ in a matter of months and was incarcerated for 7 days, my bond trial was held in Room 316, I walked back to my room and flipped through the Old and New Testament and unto me came the words of Ezekiel 3:16. I am the real deal, I have developed new political and business models worth hundreds of trillions of dollars annually. I however am not the Second Coming you hath been seeking, I am the third. I am a descendent of family ties to the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus who created the Army Ranger School, established Israel as a nation, was the only foreign solider to fight and die for Israel, he worked for the NY Attorney Generals office, he prosecuted the Mafia an hath been immortalized in the Kirk Douglas movie Cast an Iron Shadow, he is the Second Comign for he hath die at the hands of the Judas even after saving them from the wrath of Adolph Hitler. After I figured out that the pure blood Jews are evil, they promote Freedom of Choice which is Death, Freedom of Speech which is Hate Speech and liberal propaganda against Bush, Christ and our heavenly father. For I am not the father or the Holy Spirit however we exist in a pyramid relationship, with all three of us operating separately yet being God simultaneously. I have created great political, social and business reforms such as Democratic Conservatism, what this does is reaches the mass audience of voters vs the 50/50 split, it still has checks and balances however these checks exist at the Presidential Cabinet level which will be composed of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians as well as Democratic Conservatives (Southern Democrats). I am not just a Christian, I am Jewish and speak the tongue of Judas, not fluently and thank the Father that I was never Bar Mitzvahed. Mickey Marcus was a great man who gaveth everything unto the Judas and they still took his life, it is prophesized however that my life wilth not be taketh by the Judas for I will restore the world to howeth that exist before the creation of "Original Sin" by the Judas and his followers. The Jews appear weak and feeble, humorous and funny but they promote evil and the words and actions of Satan. After I hath discovered the evil of the Judas and his seed the claw of Satan thus appeareth on my window, I used great force and wiped it away immediately. The Holy Wars are over and the last battle of Medaggo will be won as prophesized by the the believers of the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ who I thus be and the believers of Allah and Adonai. You are a very special man and I believeth that you can help me come out of my shell to reveal my true powers to the world and better society. I hope my pleas do not falleth upon deaf ears, for I am the one you seeketh, I am the Savior of Man and will rule like Octavious Caesar, I will bring great prosperity to the world and eliminate the debt of my children and followers for we will all liveth as Kings in the Kingdom of Heaven under my rule. My birthday is 01/20/84
(20)-(1+8+4)=7. The divine number of the father and Christ himself. I am shocked at the powers I possess being just a Jewish child growing up in a small southern town but for centuries my cometh hath been prophesized. Another example, 911 was not an attack against the U.S. and George Bush it was prophesized by Nostradamus himself and was an attack on the Judas and their controlling of the world financial markets. The divine hand of the father delivered George and Jeb Bush to throw the election in Florida by getting the people of the Judas to vote for Buchanan the greatest anti semite alive, this made sure that Lieberman would not be in office to promote the Judas' control and American occupation of Israel. If Lieberman was in then the Muslims would hath been destroyed forever. I was born in Jacksonville, NC the greatest concentration of American military power and training grounds, then moveth to Quantico base and the city of the greatest Southern War Victory. My birthday also falls on the inauguration of the President and Lee, Jackson, King day the 3 greatest Southern leaders knowth to man. I have only studied religion for a matter of hours but my brain reacheth to the heaven it is far different from that of a regular mortal. The Judas exists in Bill Gates himself and his followers Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Bruckheimer, Jason Alexander, Steven Spielberg, they haveth so much yet do not give to anyone. The Manning family, Tom Cruise (Even though a Scientologist has strong ties to my life and his movies portray the life of my ancestor Mickey Marcus (Last Samurai, A Few Good Men) and the first 20 years of my father's life (Born on the 4th of July) he was recruited at the same exact military station in Levittown, NY and joined the Marines to serve his country.
Please take me under your wing, offer me your love and salvation and I will provide your people with a lavish life full of love and prosperity. Please rescue me from this world of feces I hath resided in, I am poor yet humble and no one will offer me their hand to helpeth me arise back to my feet. I have seen the wicked conquer the children of Israel time and time again, this will stop now, it is our time to rise to arms and fight for what is ours. I need your love, so that I canth provide love onto the children of Israel. Before I go I must also separate the goat from the lamb, the goats will be exposed for their evil and they musteth convert or they will be demonished so our Kingdom that lasteth 1000 years can be fulfilled. The date 777 is among us when the Mother and the Father will come down from the sky and speaketh unto us. Destroy Microsoft, ransack their goods, the goods of the Hasid, Macy's Federated and dump all of your investments and put them into GE, Bayswater Uranium, Ukrops, McDonalds, Apple, The Green Energy Fund, or Berkshire Hathway, the Black Sabbath will come amongst the followers of Satan, the Judas. Burn all Seinfeld, Family Guy, 40 Year Old Virgin, Barbara Streisand, etc. Storm the houses of Bruckheimer, Gates, Seinfeld, Jason Alexander (Constanza) the offices of ICM, Interscope, Lieberman. These men will sit before the judgement seat of Christ, soon and all the sons of Judas and the non believers will face off against 300 men in a world televised fight. They shall convert to Islam, Christianity or Messianic Judaism, if they do not then I will not redeem their souls and they will perish in eternal hellfire. We will pull out of Iraq and Iran and disarm all of the Judas in Israel for our eternal salvation as the followers of myself Jesus Christ rest upon this.

THE REVOLUTION STARTS NOW!!!!




Do not touch the Beastie Boys or Herzberg Diamonds (For they are owned by Warren Buffett)


The Third Coming
The Rebirth of Christ
Son of the Second Coming: Mickey Marcus



"For we must all sit before the Judgement Seat of Christ, for that which he hath done in his body, whether it be good or bad
"Second Corinthians 5:12)

How does one keep his faith during times of war?

Faith is a personal quality which can be intoduced to another person but can not be forced upon them. Thus faith is totally opposed to the idea of force. It can only be shown in action by the one who professes to have faith. Yet every individual has within them the potential to have faith.

Question then becomes faith in what?

Most people follow the edict/religion of their parents. A logical mind is a good start to finding what suites the individual, however, it is the heart that must take over at some point in time in order for The Truth to manifest for that individual. The good news is that for such people The Truth is always the same. The thread always leads to the same conclusion, the same Reality.

What is that reality, well, one must find it within themselves. It would be futile for me to point to it since it is a moving target! and the road to it can be either treacherous or within a breath. I personally recommend the short cut!

So, once realised, how does one keep it? remarks like 'x is testing my faith.' or 'lost faith in x.' can only from someone who has not touched faith.

Faith is a quality once attained will never be lost. It is eternal. Yes it is tested under stress and at times of stife or wars, but the faithfull will never crumble down. In fact precisely at these times the faith shines much brighter just as a lit candle throws more light in a pitch-black room.

This connection once achieved with The Creator will never and can never be severed. It is a two way communication and not a one way communication. And it has the capacity to become clearer/increased as this communication continues Eternally and beyond the physical realm. Indeed one of its initial requirements is the believe in The Unseen. It is hidden from the ones who do not believe beyond their physical reality. Such is the nature of God's Pure and Unconditional Love that HE does not impose Himself upon His Creation (Wo/Man). We are left to our own devices to return home. This is the Loving Father that Christ was talking about. For love then becomes possessive if it is to be forced even one iota.

The lost sons and daughters must find their own way to The Father/Mother on their own accord. And when they do, imagine The Father's joy and pleasure of seeing His son come back not out of any obligation, fear of Hell or eyeing Heavens or inheritances but out of the son's Pure love to return Home. At that very time, all cycles are broken and shift happens to another spiritual dimension. Abrahamic faiths call it repentance/tawbbah. But I find that a harsh word for today's world. In essence it is a decision TO BE. One can not BE 21 until one reaches the age of 21. In the realm of spirituality this takes the form of a decision. Bang!!

The heart must seek and it shall find. Christ said: "Knock and the door shall open". 2000 years later, I say there never was nor is a door. God is closer to you than your jagular vein. HE is in your DNA. Question is: Whether you choose to believe that or not is purely your choice. If ever there was a Hell, then this separation is it.

However, what Christ meant is first You seek, then HE comes to you. The concept of a door has confused many thinking that it is an outside of the self, yet God can only reside in the heart of the faithful. PURITY can never be tained in a container that has love of the material world in it. the two just do not mix well.

Thus one can either have faith or not. Its like pregenancy: a woman can not be half pregenant. You are either this side or the other.

It is precisely for this matter that Christ said the only way to the Father is thro me, since he was indeed PURE. It is the only reason that Quran says the only way to God is through Islam, meaning Submission to the will of God and not the Islam that many Muslims and non-muslims here in these forums understand it to be. The root Arabic word for Islam is SLM, means peace. and thus peacefull submission is the proper way to describe a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian or indeed any other faith. If followed as intended in its PURE form it leads to GOD.

Purity must first come from the heart of the seeker. The rest will be taken care of just as a seed must first germinate, the natural weather, rain and sun and the earth comes into play to create the tree. All the physical and spiritual realities are there to glorify man for God is beyond need and He does not need to be glorified. HE is already THE GLORY in its PURE form. Absolute. We are the ones who are lost and must find. We glorify God when we respect each other and give our unconditional love and freedom for each other. Only then we can have a glimpse of what this love that heals and is a balm for all ofour seperation from each other and thus by deduction from God.

Oneness in action. Do not settle for anything less.

I wish this inner peace for every single being.

Thank you for the opportunity and your time.

WWJD? Well, it ain't what dubya and the GOP have done in the past 6 years, that's for sure.
Steve

Mary Cunningham,

I assume you were trapped by birth into Catholic orthodoxy as many of us were. Time to think outside the box.

Some starting points:

a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.
b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.
c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.
d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.
e. Jesus' Spirit resides in Heaven with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.
f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.
g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception

Jon - no, not prejudice, just that the majority of people are Christian - and I used to be, so it seemed like a good example to use. You don't have to be Christian to understand.

Here's a Jewish example, that I just posted on The Rabbi's thread - "There are no Jews on Christmas morning."

Maybe you're not Jewish, either. It doesn't matter. It's an example of an unintended slur.

So, Jon - what I say about anonymity reminds you of a pedohpile. I wonder if you'd have the nerve to say that to me in person.

You sound mean and spiteful, Jon - I probably wouldn't have the nerve to say that to your face either, but I do mean it.

EFAVORITE:

"assuming you’re Christian"

I am not. Is it your predudice that caused you to assume? Thats a bit ego-centered.

"One of the great things about this forum is that people with different perspectives can be frank in a way not easily done in person."

You remind me of the pedophile comfortable with his computer anonymity. Isn't it unwise and immature to think anything is to be gained by enjoyment of acts done in secret?

Cheers.

This is a truly good question, and there have been a few good answers… I’d like to share my own. Many years ago I started to question things, all things I had learned as a kid. I studied a lot, read a lot and thought things through. It started like this: If there is no god then…what? (I was raised going to a small Methodist church my whole life, it was never an option.) I worked on these questions for months, then years, and came to the conclusion that life, the universe and everything, made more sense if there was NOT a god. The big questions fell into place…why did the Jones family lose their house and three children in the tornado while the Smith’s lost nothing? Why did those children die at the hand of their own mother? Why is there so much suffering? Why did my wife cheat on me? Why are we at war? Why do bad things happen to good people? What happens when we die?
If you have ‘faith’, believe in a god, these questions are problematic at best. The various texts are vague and in some cases contradictory, (I know that someone will jump on this, so I’ll preemptively avoid that distraction by just asking “What happens when we die? And please cite your references and argue amongst yourselves.) So we enlist the aid of interpreters and priests, and prophets to explain them, again, and again, and again… some of them telling us that hurricanes are caused by tolerance for gay lifestyles, others saying that no, the problem is gambling. Who’s interpretation do we believe, which is the right one? ARRGH!!! I studied Catholicism, Mormonism, Buddhism, and about twenty flavors of American Protestant. They all seemed reasonable in a few places, but at some point all threw up their hands and shoved the answer into a mystical box… “Only God knows” which is pretty much saying, “It doesn’t make any consistent or logical sense.” Bottom line: “we don’t know”.
So people with faith in a god like thing or things can/must accept that there are some things we humans just don’t know, that don’t make sense logically, or spiritually. On that we are in complete agreement.
My faith says this…I don’t know where the universe came from; I don’t know when or where it’s going to end up.
I have faith, based on observation, logic, and lack of compelling reason to believe in one or more of the thousands of variations posited by all the religions that all require an unseen, omniscient, omnipresent , mysterious, mystical being of unknown origin itself, that when we die, our brain stops working, no more conscious thoughts, therefore no memory, awareness, reflex, sensation. Nothing, not even darkness since darkness requires awareness… it will be exactly like what it was like to be us a year before we were born.
Why are there wars? Because people created them. Why do people die in tornadoes, car crashes, etc…? Because of the non-mystical, totally physical forces at work. (Hold a eyedropper of water high above a thimble. How many drops make it into the thimble? Why not all of them? Simple, there are movements, breezes, inconsistencies in surface areas/volumes etc. Why would a tornado, hurricane or lightning bolt be any different?) Why do we need to insert a magical force between ourselves and the things we don’t like or quite understand?
If a storm kills a thousand, or only one. If a plane crashes and only one person survives, if a disease that kills a million spares a few, why do we need to attribute it to something more than it needs to be? Something that we in fact cannot understand?
I have a faith that does not waver, nor need to be rethought, or re-examined in times of war, peace, famine, prosperity, blight, flood, or personal distress.

The main problem is proselytizing, I wish all religions and non-believers alike would just make the information available and stop trying to convert the rest of us.

I do see some rational, informational thoughts on this site. Why turn it into a battle? I blame war on the leaders not the people. They are the ones brainwashing their followers into fighting the "evil" ones, when their real goal is money (oil or land)

Hi, Jon, No promises on not asking for specific examples in the future. As long as people make sweeping statements, I’ll ask them to back them up. First of all, I’m curious about exactly what they meant. Secondly, I think it’s important for people to be able to back up their statements if they want to be taken seriously. I’d still like you to point out the examples of atheists’ “ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and… immature, belligerent responses” on this forum. If you do, I promise not to challenge you on them. I really do want to know what you mean.

Regarding Rabbi Steinsaltz, are you suggesting that because he has an impressive bio that he should not be criticized? Some of the posters on that thread are hard on the Rabbi because he made what perhaps he doesn’t realize is a very insulting statement to atheists. He mentions that “there are no atheists in foxholes" as if it’s a completely true and accepted fact, when it’s actually just a saying with no known basis in reality. It implies that all atheists would be inspired by fear to believe in a supernatural entity that they had not believed in before.

He might know a lot about the Talmud, but he’s just demonstrated by repeating that cliché (talk about a tired device!) that he doesn’t know much about atheists and has a negative opinion of them as well.

I bet you’d be insulted if people who didn’t share your faith (assuming you’re Christian) frequently said things like “There are no Christians in science class” (presuming they’re too dumb to understand evolution) or “There are no Christians in a stampede” (presuming the instinct for self-preservation will supersede an obligation to help others).

One of the great things about this forum is that people with different perspectives can be frank in a way not easily done in person. I’d be horribly offended if the Rabbi made that remark in my presence, but doubt I’d have the nerve to call him on it. First of all, I’d be stunned that he said such a thing (I know because I’ve been in similar situations), then I’d be concerned about embarrassing him publicly. I figure he’s a good person who doesn’t know any better – yet. In this on-line discussion, he can get the unpleasant message privately, sitting in front of his computer – and as a result not embarrass himself or unwittingly malign atheists publicly again.

We atheists are affected by faith; living as we do in a world surrounded by the faithful. Many of us have come to our atheism as the result of a long, serious examination of our own faith.

Ms. Cunningham, we are people with a stake in this subject whether you like it or not. Call us names and tell us to shut up if you like, we're not going away. And please try not to generalize about atheists on the basis of the behaviour of a few; I try not to judge all believers by the behaviour of their worst examples and I'd appreciate the same respect and courtesy and return.

Regards

A Hermit

There is no god. Get over it.

efavorite:

"I hadn't noticed that -- could you give some examples?"

Please promise that's the last time you post this question. I don't read here often and I still recognize it as your tired device.

Read completely through Rabbi Steinsaltz' bio and then go to his thread and read how your fellow faithless respond to him.

For more than 40 years, “On Faith” panelist Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has devoted himself to the monumental undertaking of translating and reinterpreting the Talmud, the vast collection of rabbinic writings that constitute Jewish civil and religious laws. Steinsaltz, who lives in Jerusalem, began this task in 1965, when he founded The Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications. The Steinsaltz Edition of the Talmud, of which 37 volumes have been published so far, has made the Talmud accessible to tens of thousands of Hebrew speakers. In 1989, he began producing an English edition of 22 volumes. Since 1994, 15 volumes have been published in French, and four have appeared in Russian. The Talmud project has been described as the most important Jewish publication endeavor of the 20 th Century. Steinsaltz has written some 60 books and hundreds of articles on a wide variety of topics, including Hasidism and the Jewish mystical tradition of Kabbalah. One of his most popular books is The Thirteen Petalled Rose , which he describes as “a little book for the soul.” In 1989, Steinsaltz established a Russian branch of Mekor Chaim--the first Jewish institution to receive official recognition in the former Soviet Union . He also founded the Aleph Society, and the Mekor Chaim Educational Institutions. In 1988, Steinsaltz received the prestigious Israel Prize--his nation's highest honor. He has lectured at major universities and research institutions in the United States and Europe, including Princeton University , Yale University , Columbia University , the Woodrow Wilson Center , Oxford University and the Sorbonne.

Cheers.

Jon, you ask "Have you noticed how ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and prone to give immature, belligerant responses most of the atheists posting here are?"

I hadn't noticed that -- could you give some examples?

Mary,

Have you noticed how ego-centered, spiritually shallow, impatient, and prone to give immature, belligerant responses most of the atheists posting here are?

An atheist has no answer for the question:

"How do you keep your faith in times of war."

A wise man with no faith would have refrained from answering. All the atheist panel members did -but for one who began her post:

"I did not originally intend to respond to this question, because its underlying premises--first, that it is, a priori, a good thing to "keep" faith and second, that war poses a unique challenge to faith--seem to me irredeemably flawed."

And you'll note her thread has the most responses.

Perry Clarke & all,

Thing is the evangelical atheists are proselytizing every bit as much as, say, Mr Engardio Jeho's Witnesses; yet, they will deny it and say they are mere debunkers. Yet atheists almost always tend to be humanists--as in man is the measure of all things--scientists--we don't know everything now but we *will*--and materialists. All of these are philosophical traditions.

Christianity OTOH is not about man, but about God as revealed through his Son, Jesus Christ, about humanity's innate corruption--we are, after all, part of the material world--and about redemption. Their Christian faith gives some of humanity a purpose in this world--the Jesuit saying: "We are on this earth to praise God and to seek salvation." (Praising includes doing His work to relieve the suffering of the poorest, &tc.)

The two worldviews clash, and that is putting it mildly. Atheism IMO offers very little but that is what you would expect me to say, wouldn't you?

Still, the blog's description as being "On Faith" is highly inaccurate. The experience here reminds me of a theatre: the Christians as well as a few acknowledged and unacknowledged atheists like Spong, Jacoby, Crossan, Dennett, &tc. are up on stage performing...for the atheists. The atheists on the stage throw eggs at the believers in the audience. The atheists in the audience throw eggs at the believers on the stage (who are protected) and also at any believers in the audience they can find (Catholics are the same as Nazis, Catholics are all sad0-maschocists, evangelicals are stupid &tc.)

But most believers in the audience have already walked out.

Perry Clark,

I'm an agnostic pantheist and I suggest that participation by non-believers in a faith forum is not just welcome but vital. I'm not talking about pointless name-calling practiced by a vocal minority of atheists. I'm talking about reasoned rebuttals of theistic doctrine. Unlike atheism, the various religions make exclusive claims to truth that define humanity in offensive and negative ways. Doctrines such as original sin and eternal damnation should not stand without being challenged. Claims that natural disasters and human tragedies are punishments from angry gods should likewise not go unchallenged.

Perry- Maybe Efavorite is dyslexic and has made a letter reversal on the first word in the name of this forum. Lets give him a chance.. : )

The question depends on the definition of faith. Some people might have faith in a bright future, one where humanity may learn to settle international disputes without war. Some people might have faith in the existence of a supreme being.

Perry Clark – I appreciate your comments and want to respond to them. First, let me make it clear that the “truth” I’m aware of is that Christianity is built on a house of cards – from the mythology of the old testament to the embellishments and borrowings of the new testament to the self-serving origins and dogma of the early Roman Church. I learned this through intense research, classes and discussions with current and former clergy.

When I mention participating in the Mass at family occasions, please be aware that everyone there (except clergy) knows I’m no longer a Catholic. Most of them aren’t either. In fact, I’d guess that most if not all family occasions in the last 10 years have been funerals, not weddings, as no relatives are getting married in the church any more. And the funerals were arranged long ago, by helpful Catholic funeral directors, in cooperation with parish priests, who sold all-inclusive funeral packages to the faithful. The services have been run by tired, crotchety priests who don’t bother even to learn how to pronounce the deceased’s name, and who run through the prayers like they can’t wait to get out of there and get a drink. At the most recent funeral, when we were all assembled in the church for the mass, the priest welcomed us (how nice) then asked how many had been in that church before (about 1/3 of us). He then proceeded to give an animated talk (in stark contrast to the prayers the night before) on the recent massive improvements to the church, mentioning the high costs associated with each improvement. So tell me, who’s mocking whom?

I suggest to you that the reason it seems that atheists are “proselytizing” here is that you and many others in our society who are not accustomed to hearing religion being criticized, perceive non-believers participating in a public discussion of faith as commandeering it. Just as it would be inappropriate (in my opinion) for atheists to disrupt a religious service in a church to express their views, I think it’s inappropriate for believers to expect non-believers not to participate and express their opinions in an OPEN PUBLIC FORUM on the subject of faith. Please consider hearing the voices that have been suppressed so long in the public arena is a form of consciousness raising that should not only be tolerated, but might actually be a good thing for understanding among people of various religions and people of no religion.

Finally. Probably Christians should study the spirit of Jesus instead of his death.

Yes. Any ancient book must be read with extreme caution. History never forgives. Interpolations are many in every of them. Authors? Usually too many for naming only one. It is the intent to reach an enough objective spirit what has any meaning. Let's think about The God of the Old testament and the Christian one. The Lord of the Jews defending them and punishing opponents against a Father loving his criatures and taking care of them, even forgiven when the Son is killed by them. Certainly the historic Jesus was centered on Juddish people. But he was probably the seed for any spreading out of the local scenario. There was any empathy broken any racial criterium.

Perry Clark. Is not any time of war a time for proving God even among long-standing believers?

Once again, we need to think about the God "communicators" i.e the founders of today's major religions:

Please review and comment on the following:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe that Abraham was a real person.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

GARYD--

I understand, and I apologize for failing to better comprehend when I first read your comment.

E Favorite--

Your comments sadden me more. You seem willing to claim knowledge of the truth, but unwilling to live it amongst those closest to you--your family and friends. And somehow you find it to fit well with your truth to mock the beliefs, faith, and practices of others--beliefs that, based on your own comments here, I fear you don't understand, in spite of your having been "raised Catholic". Do the inconsistencies you describe in your own behavior not tell you something?

With regards to private vs. public forums, I think the matter is moot. Not only can there be, but there are, and no doubt will continue to be, private arenas for discussion of pretty much any sort, "On Faith" or not. Some of my comments have been made with the aim of pointing this forum, in my own small way, toward the discussion the operators/moderators/owners ostensibly wish to have, based on the name of the forum, and the question at hand.

It seems to me that you (and some others here) have more of a problem than I--a problem with the very notion of public discussion of faith in which the aim is not to denigrate, mock, or destroy it, but rather to consider how it might best be maintained, strengthened, and nurtured in the face of some of the greater difficulties in life.

I am trying to address, in a forum designed, built, and operated, as it were, by others, the question put on the table for discussion. Attacks on faith disguised as "comments"--ill-disguised, at that--seem to me to be the uninvited guests at this particular event.

You're right--it's a free country, and I would not wish it less free. But I would wish it more civil, courteous, and respectful. As an example: I'm sure there exists a public forum in which a discussion among, of, and for some topic (let's say dog-fighting, for example) is ongoing. Would my comments on the activity, being, as they no doubt would, heavy on the criticism of what I see as a brutal, inhumane, and ugly thing, be welcome? Or would these comments be considered unwelcome in the discussion?

That is why I object to the proselytizing atheist commandeering a discussion of faith.

Jesus told us to worship God, not him. Modern evangelical Christianity has become a joke. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Our so called Christian leaders would have a modern Jesus monitored by the FBI and probably 'taken out' eventually for 'subversive' activities like preaching about peace. They'd call him a liberal Commie Islamist, frame him in a staged 'terrorist plot' and crucify him all over again..

Perry Clark - Don't be sad. I was raised Catholic. I loved all the incense and Latin and I love the truth more.

Now that I know it, I'm more hopeful and happy than ever before. Different strokes for different folks. When I'm at a family funeral or wedding, I go through all the Catholic motions. It's reminiscent of lovely Sunday mornings in church with my father. I even take communion, knowing it's a SIN. I admit I do it to feel naughty and to mock the church. Mainly though, I do it as a family thing. I know it makes people in my family feel good that we all participate. Too bad it has to be in drinking the (supposedly real, transubstantiated) body and blood of a ancient Jewish carpenter who was purposely murdered by his own father to atone for the sins that the same father cursed all of humanity with. I manage to put those ghoulish thoughts out of my mind for the few occasions when I take communion these days. It's just a pleasant family thing.

Want to have a private conversation among the faithful? I'm sure it can be arranged. Meanwhile, this is a public forum, operating in a country that is a secular democracy that offers freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I was responding to vercinget's post prior to mine.

Gary--When did this turn into a discussion about "proving God"?

Mary Cunningham--

I think we share the same disappointment, seasoned (at least for me) with no small bit of cynicism, over the fact that it seems impossible, at least in this venue, to have a public forum "On Faith" that serves as anything other than, as you've noted, a platform for the militantly atheist--those who aren't content with their own lack of faith, but rather feel compelled to convert all to hopelessness.

As we see herein, all too many of the comments are merely fatuous and/or disingenuous attacks, usually based on the fact that--gasp!--all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Thus--or so they would have it--there really is no difference between Catholics and Nazis. Well, they may be ambivalent about choosing between the two when it comes to inviting someone to dinner, or to stay the weekend, or marry a daughter. In which case I feel sorry for them, because they cannot see anything but what they've already chosen to see, and in their blindness, the Light will come and go without their knowing. And for that, I am sad.

Yet a God who claims salvation by grace and grace alone could not be a God that one could prove purely by human logic save indirectly.

Finally. Logic and reason have a broad reach. The deduction method allows to affirm an alternative among all the possible ones even unknowing its implicit truth. If the other ones are wrong and something is still evident then that unknown one has to be true. Reason could be able to reach unreason.

Let's think about it. If realigion says that God is only reachable by faith then common logic and reason are not useful. Atheists saying God never existed are stepping down in a logic fault. They cannot use the logic and reason that have been declared unuseful. They are really using beliefs. They have faith on the non-existance of God.

Faith is like that. Some have faith on the Lord. Others on Alah. Others on Jahve. Even somebody have faith on Satan. Faith by itself has not implicit logic or reason. That is the reason to suppose that if any God made us then he made also logic and reason. That is the reason to suppose logic and reason like a help for those looking for God. That is the reason to never fear logic and reason. VBelieve me if you want. Atheists are really hidden believers using their kind of faith.

Faith is like that. Some have faith on the Lord. Others on Alah. Others on Jahve. Even somebody have faith on Satan. Faith by itself has not implicit logic or reason. That is the reason to suppose that if any God made us then he made also logic and reason. That is the reason to suppose logic and reason like a help for those looking for God. That is the reason to never fear logic and reason. VBelieve me if you want. Atheists are really hidden believers using their kind of faith.

By sending letters to whitehouse.gov with proprosals not complaints and speaking at a churchfull of influential people. I know it is a small voice but sometimes it works.

Catholics are no worse than Nazis? Is that the point?

And St Edith Stein was a devout Catholic, dragged from her convent and gassed by the Nazi's at Auschwitz. What exactly is your point?

Giordano Bruno was a ''Militant Atheist'' and burned at the stake as a heretic by the Catholic Inquisition.

Perry Clarke & others,

Unhappily, when the believer clicks into the "On Faith" blog what she finds more often than not is an article by some militant atheist plugging his latest attack on religion in general, Christianity in particular.

This is generally accompanied by a rousing "amen" chorus from atheists in the audience! If the featured author is a Christian, it is accompanied by boos and catcalls from the same audience.

Thus I suggest that the blog be renamed "Militant Atheism."

Perry Clark - so "reason" told you what the only interesting input from an atheist would be. It sounds very subjective to me - not the product of logical deduction. That's why I thought God may have told you. Other Christians here have said they talk with God.

In terms of sarcasm - I'm no match for you.

Frankly as a Christian it is not mine to maintain my faith for faith is the gift of God. Because of that my faith goes on regardless of tough times or good times. Faith isn't like a muscle you exercise but a lens through which life reveals itself.

Much as 9/11 did not change the world but rather revealed it faith does not change the world but rather your perception of it.

Jammes--

I'm sorry that you feel that way. Given that you've chosen not to quibble with the substance of my comments, I assume that it was the tone that offended. I'm not sure what about the "cant" you found tonally offensive, however.

I meant primarily to try to nudge the discussion back toward the question put forward, and in that regard I believe my comments still stand. How, indeed, can an atheist speak meaningfully on the topic of "faith maintenance"?

E Favorite--

No, God did not tell me that. I used the gift of reason to arrive at that conclusion. Do you choose to attack with sarcasm because you disagree or because you simply don't like what I have to say? From the form of your comment, I can only conclude the latter, and this conclusion leads me to believe that you wish for the forum discussion of this question to be an appropriate place for attacking religion, as opposed to (once again) discussing the question put on offer. If that be true, then I'd like to expand the discussion in another direction--how and why can Cubs fans possibly maintain their faith?

Or, better yet, how and why do atheists (or at least some of them, a la Christopher Hitchens) believe that one's actions, one's choices, one's life, matter at all? Doesn't that require some sort of "faith", created from, well, I suppose the source would have to be nothing, wouldn't it? Is that a rational act? Are you sure of the answer to that? Can you convince others of the truth in the position you take?

Oh, wait, I'm sorry--none of those things deal directly with the question of how believers in an organized religion maintain their faith in the face of war. Maybe we should save them for later, or elsewhere?

How do you keep your faith during times of war?

Very simple.By brainwashing.

If you worship 150 times in a month and 1825 times in a year,you keep your faith all times.

How do you keep your faith during times of war?

Very simple.By brainwashing.

If you worship 150 times in a month and 1825 times in a year,you keep your faith all times.

Faith, war and realism revisited:

Gators vs Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?

Who invaded Kuwait?

Koran preaches death/mass destruction to unbelievers?

Then there are these "Islami groupies"? "Talibanies"? "Sudanies"?
"Somalies" ? 9/11 crazies ? "Fort Dixies and JFKies"? Iranies, in an Axis of Evil/Terror?
Bali, 2002, 2005?, "Wahha-babies"?, Moslem
"Brotherhoodies"?, and the "Bin Ladies"?

And they all believe/have faith in a "pretty/ugly wingie talkie thingie called "Gabrieli"? Such "weirdom" !!!!

Hello !
I recently lost my watch.
I prayed to the God of my childhood to have it returned to me.
Later in the same day I found the watch in the top drawer of my bedroom bureau.
Now that's service.

If we only consider an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, then I bet it would be difficult to maintain a belief in a god during a time of senseless suffering.

The only way I would believe in a god is if I believed that the god was destructive in nature or didn't have much concern for us humans.

But if I only considered an omnibenevolent god, then I might conclude that god is simply ineffective, perhaps irrelevant.

But does it really matter?

"There are no atheists in foxholes." Ah, but there are few true theists in the real world.

Perry Clark - you say, "the only interesting input an atheist can provide is on the question of whether faith is necessary, helpful, or in any way desirable."

No kidding. Who are you to say? Did God perchance tell you that?

Perry Clarck - Your kind of cant is what's driving more and more Americans away from religion, for better or worse.

War is good for faith, since it is largely an irrational enterprise. The best way to support war is to have faith that it is justified. What better way to justify it than to believe your favorite supernatural being is calling on you to kill those who believe in an alternate (and therefore false by definition)supernatural being.

James:

I believe you may have misunderstood the question. It is not about one keeps faith in the face of "the" war--with the definite article and your statement leading one to conclude you're speaking of the Iraq War--but rather "War" in general. If one chooses to address only "the" war, that would seem to presuppose that the question how one keeps faith in the face of war in general is settled and no longer interesting. But if that's the case, then the notion that this particular war tests faith any more than any other must be considered, and here I think the answer must be "no".

All:

So many of the responses below seem to be focused on issues not of the maintenance of faith in the face of confrontation by war, but instead on how people deal with war, whether it be by faith, "reason", or some other method. All of which fails to address the question on offer. Frankly, the testimony of an atheist claiming not to need--or have--faith in "something higher" that needs attention (or perhaps gives strength) in the face of war is both off-topic and, in a pure sense, useless for the discussion.

I don't wish to imply that atheists, agnostics, or the like are unwelcome in the forum--I don't believe it to be true, nor is it my place to so decree. But I will point out that the forum is one called "On Faith", and that the only interesting input an atheist can provide is on the question of whether faith is necessary, helpful, or in any way desirable. Once that question is dealt with, all other discussion of faith would seem to be best provided by those with at least a passing acquaintance with it. Which brings us back to the question on hand, and how silly it is for someone without faith to try to answer the question of how one maintains and nurtures faith in the face of large-scale efforts of many destroying man. Kind of like me trying to explain how it feels to carry on photosynthesis on a cloudy day. I can testify that I believe it to be done, or I can say that it's a futile endeavor, but I can't very well explain how I do it.

"How do you keep your faith during times of war"?

Assuming the question relates to current events:

The Iraq War is so monstrously terrible and so many Americans of 'faith' not only support it but relish in it that it will probably be the beginning of the end of 'faith' in the Bible, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon. If things or events have a purpose, and they surely have unintended consequences, the end of faith in those books might be the unintended consequence of the Iraq War.

And who knows? Maybe the Controller of the universe has decided it is time to move on from those concepts!

The question seems to presuppose the notion that human beings are puppets on a string being moved about by some divine history maker. As for the war, it's simple, they've got the oil, we need it and we're willing to kill to get it.

How do you keep your faith in times of war?

An excellent question, and the implication of the question is both that war is so horrendous that it calls into question faith and God and that it is so horrendous that it calls into question man's endurance and how he can possibly bear up without faith in God.

Honesty demands that we examine both directions to the limit of intellect and moral strength. Unquestionably war is such a disaster that it calls into question what sense could possibly be behind existence and whether or not it would be better for man to just depend on himself without faith in God and to make an appeal to his fellow man for some kind of justice and peace in the world. But on the other hand every kind of failure on man's part and the continuing disaster of war and suffering force all too many people into faith, a simple appeal to anything really, and this faith reaches up at its climax to God.

And we can well imagine that the less man is capable of living without faith and God not only will man turn to God in times of war--war which can be fought for a variety of reasons--he will increasingly turn to war in the name of his particular religion.

All hinges apparently on whether man can live without faith and God--live by his own hands and will and intellect in something of an atheistic or at least agnostic position which not only puts war for religion at bay but war for all the reasons by which war is typically fought.

Now how honestly can we expect man to put war in its totality to rest in the world? We have to examine all the reasons for war and have the types of men that can put war to rest. And much hinges apparently on the types of men that can reduce suffering in the world--for there seems a connection between increased suffering and an increase in religion as the answer (the monotheistic religions, the suffering in India and Hinduism, Buddhism, Yoga, practices of meditation in general). In fact perhaps we should posit that religion is the default answer to suffering and war if there is no other answer.

The question really is not how to keep faith in times of war but create a situation in which war is put to rest without religion, but the less efficient this process the more the religious will get angry and war could very well be provoked as a defense of religion--and with just cause I might add, because with no clear answer to the end of war religion is quite necessary (even if only illusion).

The modern answer to the end of war is obviously economic efficiency--a type of efficiency which submerges nationalistic, religious, ethnic, etc, divisions in a baptismal bath of liquid cash and plenty which however leads to many other questions which today seem to all too many as answered.

For example there are many today that are without belief in God and declare they would be without faith even as suffering increases and if society would fall back into a state of war--as if they would be in the vanguard for a direct emergence from war to secular society without a pass through religion. We really need to question what an atheist is in modern society and how secure this position is against a collapse of society back into a state of suffering.

Today without question the atheistic position is defended from a strictly intellectual viewpoint, which is to say if an atheist were asked why he is an atheist he would give an answer which makes it seem a clearly intellectual decision and nothing more. But it must be asked how long this intellectual position would hold if the person's suffering were to increase, and if the person were to remain an atheist with a dramatic increase in suffering we would have to ask how moral really is a person that can withstand dramatic increases in suffering...

This is not to say being able to stand dramatic increases in suffering necessarily means an immoral, insensitive--callous--person, but throughout all history and all religions we are admonished to bear suffering with equanimity, to not allow it to sway us morally...It could mean superior ability to handle suffering means exactly morality or not--we just do not know at this point.

Really when we think of overcoming war without recourse to faith and God (and driving toward secular society) we have to ask if the type of person able to effect this is of superior intellect or of great ability to withstand suffering (a genetic reason) or perhaps the person is just the fortunate recipient of a society in which he really had no hand bringing into being--in other words he is a happy little atheist because everyone around him has made life easier...

To get to the bottom of the issue, to directly ask--to directly determine--the type of man able to live without war, and without turning to religion in times of war, we would have to increase suffering in general to see which men hold up, which remain reasonable and atheistic as suffering increases...

Ironically a modern society with its ease makes it virtually impossible to determine which men really are moral out of morality and not because of ease which puts violent impulses at bay let alone moral and atheistic--which is to say capable of remaining with equanimity and without God in all possible life situations...

It would be immoral in other words to truly determine the true atheists among us let alone the moral ones for the simple reason that to determine such we would have to make life hell to determine such persons!

Perhaps we should redefine morality as putting into operation a society which dramatically increases suffering in a type of controlled experiment with the purpose of getting at the true atheists--and moral ones--among us so we can breed a human race of such beings...

But we have no morality for that--no will and effort for it--so we will continue to depend on...

Well what really? Oh, I see--depend on what fortunate advances we have made already to have a society of economic plenty in which all will declare themselves atheists although anyone can see the vast majority will be merely riding the coattails of good fortune and in fact many will remain with religion because society is really not that secure and at any time we might fall back into barbarity...

How do you keep your faith in times of war?

I keep mine by thinking about things.

Compassion. Every day try to have empathy for each person you meet. It isn't about agreeing. We must strive to care about one another. Each and everyone of us is a flawed human being. Each of us has a load of baggage we are carrying. And each of us is unique in all the world. And we share the same small space for all too short a time. We must strive to do better in that time.

It doesn't matter what ideas we have, our intellects are so limited. It doesn't matter what groups or organizations we align ourselves with. They are all created and populated by humans like ourselves, flawed and vulnerable. Most of us are suffering in at least one way or another, and we try to make sense of our existence, and it is all, all of it guess work. No one knows.

All we can do is give up or hope. Whatever we chose to do, let us learn to care about one another. Let us help each other shoulder are burdens. Learn to love unconditionally. Know compassion.

Morgan

To: lepidopteryx

The question was/is: 'how do you keep your faith during times of war'?

We should be able to agree that my orientation was to the soldier on the front line while your orientation would seem to be more detached from the one doing the actual fighting and facing life or death.

But your question is a good one.: "why would a god need bullets"? for someone detached and thinking in the abstract.

The statement I offered while containing two different concepts is still a good one for those engaging in actual combat: "Praise the Lord. And pass the ammunition"!

Hermit,

As I've said on other boards, I am fortunate to have a very wise friend who once told me "All religion boils down to two basic ideas. 1 - You are a part of something bigger than yourself. 2 - Be nice to each other." The beauty of it is that it also works for those who eschew religion; I have found that the atheists with whom I have made acquaintance and friendship abide by that same basic creed.

Apologies for the duplicate post - my computer got hung up and it looked at first as though it had not gone through, so I sent it again. Ah, modern technology! When it works properly, it's a tremendous blessing, and when it doesn't, it's a royal PITA.

lepidopteryx: Good reply to Daniel's comments below. I especially liked this:

"Why can't it be that the atheist says to himself upon arising every day, "I will go forth and do my best to be a good citizen and to help my fellow man as much as I can. I will not allow adverse circumstances to stop me from doing so. I will do the right thing for no other reason than that it is the right thing to do."

Sounds good to me...

Regards

A Hermit

"Praise the Lord. And pass the ammunition"!

Now why would a god need bullets?

"Praise the Lord. And pass the ammunition"!

Why would a god need bullets?

In war, isn't the correct instruction the one that was figured out long ago:

"Praise the Lord. And pass the ammunition"!

Daniel;

Thank you for your thoughtful reply; I think I understand you a little better now.

I would say you're right that moral behaviour is, in a sense, genetic. People are social animals, and moral behaviour is how we organize ourselves to be able to live together.

Now, that takes a vastly complicated subject and grossly oversimplifies it, but what can you do in a blog comment? Given how complex moral reasoning can become I think you may also be right that some people need to posit the existence of some higher power or purpose to help them make sense of it all, although I would say your construction of this as the product of intellectual or moral weakness is potentially insulting to people of faith, and not an argument I, as an atheist, would make. (Others might, I realize, but I don't.) The concept of God, or providence or Karma or whatever you might want to call it can be, in my view, a useful tool for some people to help them organize their moral reasoning.

Having said that I do think there is a danger in religious morality when this concept of God becomes a substitute for reasoning. Reason always allows room for correction and improvement when faced with new information; claims of divine authority tend to be less flexible, although they do gradually change over time (contrary to the claims of some believers.)

I guess I would say that if you are feeling that you can''t be moral without a belief in God than by all means please continue to believe; but keep in mind that you still must think about your choices and not just accept what you're told by anybody at face value. Frankly, if you are behaving morally in spite of the temptations and human weaknesses we all share, perhaps you just aren't giving yourself enough credit for being a decent human being.

To answer your question, yes, I do believe most people can be moral without God, or to be more precise without a belief in God. God is just shorthand for something we all instinctively try to do anyway; to do what's right not just for ourselves but for our neighbours as well; to treat others as we would wish to be treated.

If you're interested a more thorough (and much more clearly expressed) examination of this idea let me recommend a book to you: "Can We Be Good Without God" by Dr. Robert Buckman is a good introduction.

http://www.amazon.com/Can-We-Good-Without-God/dp/1573929743

Regards

A Hermit

First I thank God that he is Jehovah Jireh, and that Jesus is the Prince of Peace. He died so that we may have peace in our souls. No matter what is going on around us that peace surpasses all understanding. The carnal man can not understand that.

Because I also know that most of the things that go on and are currently are going on in the middle east is a written in the old testament. God doesn't lie. Everything that the old prophets spoke about is coming to fruition.

Did they not say that Israel would be in battle again. Did it not say that the land where Iraq is currently in will be fought over. It all started with the Ishmael and to continue with his descendents.

You must stay in prayer. Seek God daily. You must pray for the Government, the President and a the people at war and anyone who makes decisions that could effect the whole world.

You must be HOLY LIve HOLY and acceptable to God that is your reasonable service and you can remain at peace.

Daniel,
I must confess a certain confusion regarding one of your posts.
You wrote "if a person remains an atheist as his suffering increases then it could very well be a genetic ability to withstand suffering and/or higher intellect. This might mean the person is moral or not (could be more opportunistic and callous--moral negatives--or demonstrate better self-restraint--a positive) but certainly we can see that this is morality or lack thereof independent of personal choice."
Behavior is always a matter of personal choice, whether one beleives in any sort of deity or not. If an atheist gives bread to a starving person, his act is just as moral as that of a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Wiccan, or a Scientologist) who does the same thing. It is not made less so by the fact that he does not invoke a deity when he does so.

You wrote " Furthermore, in a society in which suffering is at a minimum--a modern society--how are we to tell whether the atheists are atheistic because of a reasonable choice or because they simply have not been tested as to capacity for suffering, which is to say they have been lucky not to have to cry out to God?"
Does it really mater WHY a person believes (or disbelieves) what s/he does? The flip side of your argument is that maybe a person is a beliver merely because they have had a hard life, and have become so frustrated and depressed that they see no other way of dealing with it than to cry out to a god. Maybe that crying out just gives them the catharsis they need to pick up and get going again, and thye thhink that God is doing what they are actually accomplishing all by themselves. You seem to think that an atheist is just a believer waiting for a disaster to happen that will trigger his belief. There are atheists who have faced many dire personal trials and dealt with them. There ARE atheists in foxholes. Look at some of the headstones at Arlington if you don't believe me.

You wrote " The point is taking into consideration that my life is a total failure and on top of all that I now pulled my back, it is a sign of fundamental morality that I can be patient with people that deny the existence of God, deny all I really have left in life."
The ability to exercise patience when in pain is certainly admirable. But how is pulling your back a moral issue? And if your life is a total failure, then do something about it. You may not be able to fix whatever you have done wrong in the past, but you certainly have control over what you do from now on. Just because you have screwed up in the past doesn't mean that your future is doomed.

You wrote "But the atheist when suffering increases, the atheist that does not need God and remains moral no matter the degree of suffering...well how can we declare that to be morality unless we want to redefine morality as not something one must make an effort to do but something which depends on genetics--and in this instance something of the inborn capacity to withstand suffering, iniquity, humiliation, hardship, privation of all types?"
Why must it be simply genetics? Why can't it be that the atheist simply CHOOSES to behave morally, to refuse to be lowered by circumstances? Why can't it be that the atheist says to himself upon arising every day, "I will go forht and do my best to be a good citizne and to help my fellow man as much as I can. I will not allow adverse circumstances to stop me from doing so. I will do the right thing for no other reason than that it is the right thing to do."

You wrote "But say for example we were to have an economic answer to suffering and no more war--no more war for even religion. Well how could we classify the people in such an economically advanced society as moral? They certainly make no effort to be moral. In fact such a society would probably depend on high intellect to reduce suffering and therefore the need to make difficult moral decisions."
So morality is only possible in the face of suffering and/or poverty? My, what a bleak existence you must have. Bill Gates is a very rich man who gives large sums of money to charitable organizations. Are his donations immoral because he's wealthy?

You wrote "This might cause laughter among atheists but this notion of morality requiring constant effort and threats by at least something or someone is still a more sophisticated conception of morality than atheists offer."
I don't see why any sort of threat is necessary for morality to exist.

Has it ever accured to anyone that morality, right and wrong, and yes even the word of "god" are all concepts that are taught to us. None of us are born with the knowledge of god/devil, right/wrong. We believe what we are told to, until we come to the realization that we have a choice to live as we see fit. Who cares if you believe in god or not, or what god that may be. At the end of the day we all have to share the world together. The way I see it, believe what you will (what ever gets you through the day). We simply should be looking for ways to benefit humankind, because in the end that is what we are leaving for our children.

Listen if you want. First. I think God didn't want to see any of His criatures are suffering. I could not understand a Father in other way. Second. Any unique God will be always the Father of believers and unbelievers like the reason He gave us can realize. Third. Jesus is the way for Christians helping us to reach God. The Son of God. The Son of the Mankind. Both ones. That one promoting the spirit over the empty textual reading of any book. Fourth. If the message of the Son doesn't reach deeply any heart then the force is unuseful at all. Yes. I was catholic.

Listen if you want. First. I think God didn't want to see any of His criatures are suffering. I could not understand a Father in other way. Second. Any unique God will be always the Father of believers and unbelievers like the reason He gave us can realize. Third. Jesus is the way for Christians helping us to reach God. The Son of God. The Son of the Mankind. Both ones. That one promoting the spirit over the empty textual reading of any book. Fourth. If the message of the Son doesn't reach deeply any heart then the force is unuseful at all. Yes. I was catholic.

Listen if you want. First. I think God didn't wanted to see any of His criatures are suffering. I could not understand a Father in other way. Second. Any unique God will be always the Father of believers and unbelievers like the reason He gave us can realize. Third. Jesus is the way for Christians helping us to reach God. The Son of God. The Son of the Mankind. Both ones. That one promoting the spirit over the empty textual reading of any book. Fourth. If the message of the Son don't reach deeply any heart then the force is unuseful at all. Yes. I was catholic.

1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Why? Because they were born Muslims and don't know any better. Lose their faith because of war? Of course not, war is part of their "koranic" faith. "Death to unbelievers" being their battle cry!!!!!!

The rich and powerful have no faith in god only money and power. religion is for the poor and struggling to help them deal with uncertainty. God does not need man, man needs god. when the elite speak of god it is a device to market to the lower class, to explian some bitter pill they alone must swallow.
I personally believe in god but not religion.I know Jesus would not want these men using his name, for their deeds.

The rich and powerful have no faith in god only money and power. religion is for the poor and struggling to help them deal with uncertainty. God does not need man, man needs god. when the elite speak of god it is a device to market to the lower class, to explian some bitter pill they alone must swallow.
I personally believe in god but not religion.I know Jesus would not want these men using his name, for their deeds.

memorial day.
every soul shall taste death,in rain or snow,on air or on sea ,on peace or on war,on wealth or poverity,on health or on disease,on young or old,no excuse ,no intercession,no exception,no escape,no postponing ,no nonsense .
the above top kick reality is kicking another memorabilia every human should not leave home without it.
1-this life is not a joke ,it is not a horse stable where human work eat and die.
2-there is creator for this life ,if you do not belive so ,stop death if you can.
3-human mentation is not enough nor sufficent to construct this life,nor the hear after, you need divine revelation.
4-mankind is not self created ,man never created him/her self so the purpose of his life on this planet earth is absolutly belong to the creator of life and death.
5-life is too short.
6-heavy day is waiting for mankind ,death,resurrection,and judgement eternal life in paradise or eternal life in hell you have the choice .be aware and be prepare .peace be uppon who follow the guidance of the creator of life and death and the eternal life in the hear after.
7-satan exist till the last day ,human ignorance exist till the last day ,war is a reality of this life,what is the name of the war?.

The rich and powerful have no faith in god only money and power. religion is for the poor and struggling to help them deal with uncertainty. God does not need man, man needs god. when the elite speak of god it is a device to market to the lower class, to explian some bitter pill they alone must swallow.
I personally believe in god but not religion.I know Jesus would not want these men using his name, for their deeds.

Daniel - you raise many interesting points, some, but not all, I have thought of myself.

You should read Dan Dennett's “Breaking the Spell - Religion as a Natural Phenomenon."

He thinks research should be done on religion just as it was done (initially under great protest) on the human sexual response and on human anatomy.

Research is the only way we'll find out how religion affects different people differently. It does seem to me that certain people are more susceptible and certain traumatic experiences trigger belief.

To a hermit from Daniel. What I am saying--and going along with the question of keeping faith in a time of war--is if a person remains an atheist as his suffering increases then it could very well be a genetic ability to withstand suffering and/or higher intellect. This might mean the person is moral or not (could be more opportunistic and callous--moral negatives--or demonstrate better self-restraint--a positive) but certainly we can see that this is morality or lack thereof independent of personal choice.

Therefore this cuts right into the argument by atheists that we should just dispense with a belief in God because virtually anyone should be able to be moral without God. It could be believers do not have the genetic capacity to deal with suffering that atheists do.

Furthermore, in a society in which suffering is at a minimum--a modern society--how are we to tell whether the atheists are atheistic because of a reasonable choice or because they simply have not been tested as to capacity for suffering, which is to say they have been lucky not to have to cry out to God?

The issue is not really that religious people must demonstrate morality is dependent on God but that the irreligious must explain what morality is clearly and all the things which make or break such a thing. I am merely speculating here. How much is morality genetic? If it is genetic then what sense is it to explain to a religious person that we all can be moral without religion? How much is morality and disbelief in God dependent on merely the good fortune of never having experienced acute suffering?

My argument concerning atheists--if one must reduce it to atheists--is that we constantly hear from atheists that one can be moral without God and without anymore words we hear that we should just dispense with the supernatural beliefs as if end of conversation. The conversation is only beginning--I can assure you of that.

Do you honestly believe most people can be moral without God?--That we just apply a liberal nurture over nature plan and just educate people away from God and they will be moral because after-all it is religion that is so responsible for violence?

How naive. A lot of morality without God is probably intellectual superiority--correct grasp of actions and how to maximize one's abilities. Genetic. A lot is probably superior fortitude. Genetic. And certainly a lot is because of living in a society in which one does not have to act like an animal.

I am simply trying to get at all the degrees of the argument. And where religion seems distinguished from the atheistic position is that it believes morality is far from simple--requires constant effort--and yes, a belief in God. And yes, a fear of God.

This might cause laughter among atheists but this notion of morality requiring constant effort and threats by at least something or someone is still a more sophisticated conception of morality than atheists offer.

I flat out laugh when I hear arguments such as remove a belief in God and people will just become better behaved--as if God is completely the reason for immorality (although if he is the creator of the universe he can be blamed--but this is not what atheists mean in this instance).

What it comes down to hermit is you have to explain precisely why you are a moral being. Because you have superior intellect? Because of good fortune in general? Why is it you disbelieve in God? Did you learn it or is it genetic? If suffering in your life were to drastically increase and you could remove it by immoral actions would you do so? Are you sure you would not even cry out once to God?

We can discuss this further. I had no real time to discuss this now but figured I would take a shot at it anyway. Just trying to define morality. Morality without God. Nature versus nurture. Degrees of suffering as they relate to morality, belief in God. The effect of intelligence, etc.

And, now I'm questioning if what I said even means anything to anyone. :)

I would say, when looking at the process and effects of war, say... mangled bodies and fear:

If your faith said, this wouldn't happen if you were 'righteous,'

Ditch that faith.

If your faith said, 'Don't look at this for fear of losing your faith,'

Ditch that faith twice.

If your faith said, 'Better try to believe harder, question less, be more pious, pass the blame, and maybe keep killing to validate the faith,'

Ditch that faith three times.

What's left after that is *ours.*

And I think that's our hope.

Vercinget/Whatcrisis,

Oh I haven't lost faith at all. I think when I admit to myself that I am a sinner and no better than anyone on earth, then that builds my faith. I am humbled by the fact that I cannot obtain the glory that the perfect God deserves. God knows I am not perfect and have fallen way short of worthiness, but His sacrifice for me knowing this is what brings my faith to a higher level. If I were to accept myself as a morally acceptable person, then I could not accept the free gift of salvation offered to me by Christ on the cross. When I truly examine my life and all the things I have done, can I say I am better than anyone else? No way! I can say with confidence that there are non-believers on here who (according to societies standards) have lived a better moral life than I. I'm fine with that and hope that everyone will continue to live a morally sound life, but we all must admit our faults as well, believer or non, and try to love one another as Jesus preached to us. I guess my main point is that we are all equivolent on the moral scale in God's eyes. We have all done things we regret and done things that were not morally sound. My beliefs help me acknowledge that so that I may accept Christ. He died for our sins because we have all broken the "law". Whether you choose to accept the free gift of life is up to you. I have chosen to accept that gift and I believe it brings me salvation regardless of what I have done. Some of you may not believe in the Bible, and for many reasons, and that's your choice. Just because I do believe in it and have faith in it does not make me a better person than you. For some reason I think atheists think we think of ourselves as "better" people than them. Not the case, or at least I don't. I think of us as equals, who have all done bad things and are all "short of the glory of God".

God bless

Evoultion? Only creation with a timeline. Creation? Only evolution without any timeline. Let them to fight on.

Seriously now. God wants you use your reason until the last breath. Reason will allow you to know who He really is and who are those ones really follwing His way. You have never to fear reason. God give it to you like a very great gift.

David. Don't loose faith. If reason makes something impossible then faith will make it easy to reach. Reason is the bad seed God was unable to avoid. He creates the reason to put the man in deep troubles. Really. It is the bad seed. Remember. Faith rules. Reason is not any similar alternarive. God wanted the man being stupid.

How can anyone know what is moral or not. What is good or bad? Who is the judge of these things? And why are people thinking they are morally correct when we have all done bad things. I am a Christian and broke about every commandment God ever came up with. There are no such things as big lies or small lies, they are all lies. I stole a candy bar when I was a kid once at 7-11, I never stole a car though, but still I broke the law and am considered a theft. So what's the fine line between good and bad morals and are there bad morals or deeds that are worse than other bad morals or deeds? I consider myself a worse sinner than anyone who has no knowledge of the Bible because I know what sin is in God's eyes. I still refuse to listen to Him. Those who do not know, sin without knowing they offend God, I know I offend God every time I see someone with ugly shoes or a bad haircut because I am judging that person. I offend God everytime I see someone run a stop sign and break the law and tell myself that I am a better person than they. But I am forgiven because of Christ and my faith in Him. Atheist or believer, we all do wrong. Not one on earth is perfect or even comes close to the glory of God. Our deeds (or works) do not save us, it is our faith in the work that Jesus did for us that saves us. This is my belief and I know many do not believe this. But can't we agree that we are all people who do bad things? It's the truth.

God bless

Daniel; I'm not sure I understand your argument here, are you saying I'm actually immoral even when I behave morally if my moral choices are the result of something other than a belief in God? Or that I am less moral if I find it easy to make the choice to do what is right?

I have no belief in God, but I try to do what I think is right. The choices aren't always clear or easy but I can't see why doing the right thing is immoral if it's done just because it's the right thing.

If I understand you correctly it seems you're making two fundamental errors here. First in saying that moral choices somehow don't count if they are made without some sort of suffering or effort involved, second by suggesting that moral atheists don't make an effort to be moral.

Regards

A Hermit

The thing to do is to keep reason, not faith, during wartime. A faith-based method of addressing problems is not going to be as successful as a reason-based approach, during wartime or otherwise.

How do you keep your faith during times of war?

I have never been in a war and I find it unimaginable that someone can go through a war without some kind of faith. I suppose one can be an atheist and sacrifice one's life for one's buddies or some other less than religious belief--for country rather than God--but that one can be so hard-nosed makes me question one's morality...

A person that can go through a war or other comparable difficulty without some kind of faith--or rather with only some atheistic viewpoint--must be someone of inordinate strength, someone if moral, moral out of a genetic predisposition and not a conflicted person, which is to say a person that has to make an effort to be moral.

A simple example from my own experience. I am not a strong person--I feel pain easily. Recently I pulled a muscle in my back from weightlifting and the pain has been so agonizing that I had more than thoughts of God in my mind. Muslims will be amused that in order to find relief I have been finding myself in the Muslim prayer position. The point is taking into consideration that my life is a total failure and on top of all that I now pulled my back, it is a sign of fundamental morality that I can be patient with people that deny the existence of God, deny all I really have left in life.

It might be that many religious people are violent--and certainly violent when we reflect that they could be suffering acutely and with nothing but God in life (then people are so cruel as to tell them that this is nothing but an illusion)--but they also must be moral out of an internal effort if they are not violent in the circumstance of having nothing left but God in life...and then that taken away...

It comes down to definitions of faith and morality. I know by examination of myself that as suffering increases one's hope in God increases--and one must make an effort to be patient, one must make an effort to be moral. Now if someone would be so cruel to say my hope in God is an illusion it would be a sign of greater morality to be patient with that as well...But the atheist when suffering increases, the atheist that does not need God and remains moral no matter the degree of suffering...well how can we declare that to be morality unless we want to redefine morality as not something one must make an effort to do but something which depends on genetics--and in this instance something of the inborn capacity to withstand suffering, iniquity, humiliation, hardship, privation of all types?

In a war we can well imagine that although wars are fought for religion they are fought for many other things as well and in need of religion to bring relief to the incomparable suffering. Perhaps we can say wars are fought for religion the more there seems no other answer to suffering and that if we do not want war fought in the name of religion suffering in general must be reduced...

But say for example we were to have an economic answer to suffering and no more war--no more war for even religion. Well how could we classify the people in such an economically advanced society as moral? They certainly make no effort to be moral. In fact such a society would probably depend on high intellect to reduce suffering and therefore the need to make difficult moral decisions.

A society of perfect atheists a society in which suffering has been eradicated and nothing more, or even better, a society in which people are both more capable of suffering without turning to God and increasing economic plenty through intellect...

But for now not enough people are capable of overcoming suffering on their own--let alone capable--or rather in possession--of the intellect to create economic plenty and put war aside. So they have religion and fight in the name of faith--fight to preserve all they have to reduce suffering...

Rambling insights, no particular order here. Feel free to improve on these thoughts.

To conclude, I would say war increases faith--and suffering can increase (and futility) to the point that a complete switch occurs and rather than war increasing faith we begin to fight war in the name of faith and for the sake of faith--and it is precisely morality to prevent this switch from occuring...But those that can most easily prevent this switch from occuring--in fact those that can prevent war easily and are capable of economic plenty and secularism and atheism--are not really moral because they are gifted rather with intellect or fortunate cultural environment (good earth, less disease, resources, etc.) or are more capable of withstanding suffering in general.

What makes a man moral? How do we judge it? By a genetic predisposition or by level of personal effort? The question is not how do we keep faith in times of war, the question is how do we keep faith in times of ease, times without suffering...

And in such times how can we even speak of morality? How can we speak of morality in times of ease? How do we know if our morality is due to effort or simply because we have never really been tried in life? Or is our morality due to simply having been graced by luck in life? Or is it due to high intellect which makes life easier? Or is it due to endurance to suffering which ironically can never be tested in advanced society unless we are dropped from a plane in the rainforest of the Amazon or something?

An excellent question this question of keeping faith in war--like all questions really and when we have a society which makes asking questions acceptable.

I find amusing--but also sad--the amount of vitriol that emanates so freely from those who apparently feel the need to viciously denigrate others who display the temerity not only to believe in God, but to publicly profess that faith. The ultimate explanation, I believe, is that those without hope and love and grace cannot let be any who have such wonderful gifts. Emptiness begets emptiness, and evil, evil.

But to take up the question at hand: How do I keep my faith in times of war? By nourishing it with God's word, His love, and fellowship with other believers. By accepting every day that I can do nothing alone, but with God, through His grace, all things are possible.

Wars are extensions of the conflicts in, between, and among the sinful inhabitants of the world. As such they differ from smaller, but horrible nonetheless, episodes of violence and hate combined, more in magnitude and the numbers involved than in any innate quality. Each war we acknowledge is rooted in the war between Good and Evil that is fought every day.

I keep my faith because God is good, and He will prevail.

I keep my faith by trying to live it. I belong to an international brotherhood that lives by the words in Isaiah 2:4:

"And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

During the Vietnam war, my father was drafted as an 18-year-old. He did not serve in the military. He took a stand based on his belief that he should not serve in the military for any country -- armed or not. He didn't run to Canada. He didn't pull strings to get stuck on a base flying "training missions." He stood up to the draft board for the right to exercise his faith. He fought for a military exemption and a IV-D (minister of religion) classification for years, but no exemption came until I was born. My father's faith my well be the reason that I am alive today. I have adopted that faith as my own.

Worldwide, young men and women are taking a similar stand even now, for the same reason that my father did. And for taking a stand, many of them often endure imprisonment, persecution and abuse. If a wide-ranging draft (as proposed by Charles Rangel) were adopted in the U.S., I would be prepared to exercise my faith and refuse to serve, as would tens of thousands like me.

Trying to live this faith includes much more than maintaining neutrality and refraining from war. It also includes some strict moral choices and personal sacrifices. For me, those choices are small price to pay for what I have gained. For one thing, if everyone practiced this kind of faith, you could call a war and no one would show up. It's that knowledge that helps me keep my faith, and will move me to go out Saturday morning and share it with others. So if you hear a knock this weekend, it just might be me. Let's talk.

Getting mad isn't a bad idea. For example, the Iraq war that vicious ruinination for America...which continues to slaughter our youth, was written (and promoted) by Wolfowitz, Perle, et. al., and given to Netanyahoo. Not one disputes that. Does anyone? PNAC.
It was for Israel. Israel wants Iran...or barring that, wants Iran descimated and ruined so Israel dominates the area.
Our idiotic president bought the idea that he'd be the savior of the ME,and particularly Israel (made the promnise in flowing tears at the "wall" with Sharon). It is also true that the jewish neocons, long term, want to control
Russia, too. Via the oligarchs that were given it's resources. The long plots. Everyone knows. What a bargain,America's friend, hated by the rest of the world...Israel.

Getting mad isn't a bad idea. For example, the Iraq war that vicious ruinination for America...which continues to slaughter our youth, was written (and promoted) by Wolfowitz, Perle, et. al., and given to Netanyahoo. Not one disputes that. Does anyone? PNAC.
It was for Israel. Israel wants Iran...or barring that, wants Iran descimated and ruined so Israel dominates the area.
Our idiotic president bought the idea that he'd be the savior of the ME,and particularly Israel (made the promnise in flowing tears at the "wall" with Sharon). It is also true that the jewish neocons, long term, want to control
Russia, too. Via the oligarchs that were given it's resources. The long plots. Everyone knows. What a bargain,America's friend, hated by the rest of the world...Israel.

Getting mad isn't a bad idea. For example, the Iraq war that vicious ruinination for America...which continues to slaughter our youth, was written (and promoted) by Wolfowitz, Perle, et. al., and given to Netanyahoo. Not one disputes that. Does anyone? PNAC.
It was for Israel. Israel wants Iran...or barring that, wants Iran descimated and ruined so Israel dominates the area.
Our idiotic president bought the idea that he'd be the savior of the ME,and particularly Israel (made the promnise in flowing tears at the "wall" with Sharon). It is also true that the jewish neocons, long term, want to control
Russia, too. Via the oligarchs that were given it's resources. The long plots. Everyone knows. What a bargain,Israel.

If you're FINALLY grown up, and realize that longing for a wonderful Daddy that doesn't exist
(it's so easy to sell that need, isnt' it?) you
try to help the wounded, help the captured, stop the carnage...and don't waste your time braying to something that doesn't exist. (as you so well know). Hanging onto the idiotic fantasy is so juvenile. How can you. Great music, though.

Not one of you has any right to interpret what he/she thinks God is saying. Prove there is no God? God is a Tinkerer? You people are so pathetic!

Not one of you has any right to interpret what he/she thinks God is saying. Prove there is no God? God is a Tinkerer? You people are so pathetic!

Not one of you has any right to interpret what he/she thinks God is saying. Prove there is no God? God is a Tinkerer? You people are so pathetic!

Not one of you has any right to interpret what he/she thinks God is saying. Prove there is no God? God is a Tinkerer? You people are so pathetic!

From a recent interview with Billy Graham:

Q: Do you follow news from the Middle East and Iraq? If so, is there anything you'd like to say about the conflicts in those places?

A: I try to follow the news from there, and Ruth and I pray every day for our president. I don't think any of us can appreciate the pressures he faces. We pray also for our military personnel who are serving over there, and for their families.

Some of the tensions in the Middle East go back thousands of years to Abraham in the Bible, with the births of Ishmael and Isaac. I also think we aren't as knowledgeable about Islam as we should be, or the centuries-old conflict between the Sunnis and the Shiites. These conflicts took centuries to develop, and they won't be solved overnight.

At the same time, we ought to pray for peace in that part of the world, and encourage our leaders to do everything they can to promote peace.

If your "faith" involves an irrational belief in the unproven and unprovable, then why would you want to "keep" it? I recommend that you let it go.

Apocalypse :

If there were a god, your singularity would have punished you for your lack of patience in sending your commentary.

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Prove there is no god?

Luckily for most us Americans, the cost of war is very low. (knock on wood)

It would be better to ask how people in Iraq, Vietnam, Darfur, Cambodia, Auschwitz, etc... keep their faith during times of immense injustice and suffering.

In our America, for the vast majority who aren't involved with the military, war is only on television. The elites and their families who decide to send our volunteers to war, don't have to face its consequences. And those neo-con elites and their pioneer campaign contributors don't sign up their adult children and don't even want to _personally_ pay higher taxes or personally sacrifice in any significant way to help support the troops with the best equipment.

These Bush supporters, who don't personally sacrifice, even accuse, those who want our troops out of harm's way, of being unpatriotic and against the troops.

Yes, it is too easy for politicians to start a war.

They don't even want to solve long term problems behind our dependence on oil by starting a truly substantial multi-billion dollar Manhattan Project to seek real energy independence -- such as massively coordinated and funded fusion reactor research and extremely high efficiency batteries.

During this time of war again in the Mideast, our "President" would rather focus our scientific capacity on a trip to Mars, rather than such energy research.

It all makes no sense, and the nonsense is hardly ever exposed by our "free press".

Where is faith during a time of war, when the leaders in charge of war (and the TV news corporations) have illogically proved time and again, that they don't deserve any faith at all?

Where is faith during war without truth and true reason?

Where is faith when the war or cause is not just?

During times of hardship, my faith would be that eventually, justice would be served, and that despite injustice, it is still better to be honest, good, and loyal towards openly seeking truth, rather than proclaiming ideology and propaganda as truth and covering up corrupt irrationalities.

-- Volt Rare akha jsp

Viejita del oeste

while I don't agree with you about God ( i believe that there is no god)

i see you as a wise and compassionate person of the type that I would love to see the world be populated by.

please keep putting out your lovely spirit and wisdom.

peace and love
the immortal henry james

Elizabeth
You make a good point, but be patient with the mechanics so you don't end up posting 9 times.
I am a religious person, and as such it pains me to see faith used as an excuse for mindlessness and destructive ideas.

God was Ruler
though His funeral lengthened
Though His mourners thickened
Magic never fled
Though His shrouds were hoisted
the naked God did live
Though His Words were twisted
the naked Magic thrived
Though his death was published
round and round the world
the Heart Did Not Believe..

Your "conversation" includes a lot of smart people, but if you bother to read them it seems that all they are doing is repeating cliches about war and peace and "God is love" and "war is bad".

Both on an intellectual level and a spiritual level, it is full of drivel.

Could I ask you to find someone who is aware that "history" includes Asia and Africa, where they managed to make war for three thousand years without blaming God? Or that Mugabe's "operation cleanup" and the three million dead in the central Congo are bigger atrocities than Gitmo?

Words are cheap. Politically correct cliches by pampered clergy agonizing over theoretical war they meet mainly in headlines makes me want to become an atheist...

The struggle of finding the presence of God while daily confronted daily contact with those suffering from poverty, illness, and war is a struggle that take prayer and deep faith.

Cliches be damned.

HK,

You noted "Diderot said it best-

"Man will never be free until the Last King is strangled with the entrails of the Last Priest."

The contemporary version would be:

"Humankind will never be free until the Last King, The Last Queen and the Last Dictator are strangled with the entrails of the Last Priest, the Last Minister, the Last Evangelist, the Last Rabbi, the Last Caliph, The Last Imam, The Last Ayatollah, The Last Mawlana and/or the Last Mullah."

Amen!!!!!

We keep our faith in the Presidency by resisting egomaniacal incompetents like george bush, whose fascinatingly inept mismanagement of my once-great country will be done soon, thank Goodness.

There is no god.

Since my faith is not in a god that exists outside the earthly realm and controls (or declines to control) human actions, but deities that are present in every breath I take, every bite of food I eat, every kiss from my daughter, every caress from my lover, every bird that comes to the feeder in my back yard, every half-eaten mouse with which my cat gifts me, and even every hornworm I pull off my tomato plants, it is impossible for me to lose it.
People sometimes make stupid decisions, and many more follow those who make stupid decisions. It does not change the core of my faith, which boils down to, in the words of a friend of mine - One - you are a part of something bigger than yourself. Two - be nice to each other." The fact that others are not being nice does not release me from my charge to do no harm. It also reminds me of my onbligation to vote, and to put my money and my actions where my beliefes are.

Those who think they hear the word of 'god' and have religious experiences are suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy. Those who say they are doing the will of 'god' while killing thousands with their smart and dumb weapons have overly aggressive brains. Those who allow the above to make moral decisions for them are unable to take responsibility for their own actions.
Perhaps mankind cannot evolve from being an aggessive animal, it is in our genes.

"Viva Darwin"? Ah the same old thing. Relating Darwin to God. Just give it up. It isn't faith that caused this war, it is man. I am a Christian and oppose this government as well. I know we have been misled and the facts never came to us as a whole. C'mon Mr. Bush, where's Bin Laden?! Even so, I keep my faith in God and not man.

I keep my faith during war, because it is the only absolute I have to depend on. Men get us into and out of wars on whims (in this Iraq instance). God never changes. He is the same..today, tomorrow and forever. Why wouldn't I maintain my faith?

I keep my faith during war, because it is the only absolute I have to depend on. Men get us into and out of wars on whims (in this Iraq instance). God never changes. He is the same..today, tomorrow and forever. Why wouldn't I maintain my faith?

God allows us to go through the good times and bad and allows us to sin. There have been wars throughout man's existence. God sees us through all of them.
What makes it hard during this time is that we have the Republicans claiming to be the "Christian right". The Bible says that the two greatest commands are to 1) love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and 2) to love one another as yourself. I know we are all sinners, but somehow I can't imagine Jesus passing by the woman by the well if she was a liberal. Yet, that's one of the core "values" of the Republican party. We have an extreme amount of pride and arrogance in our administration, not to mention a president who likes to curse away and a vp who doesn't mind dropping an f-bomb on the floor of the senate. Can you imagine Jesus cutting support for the orphans and the elderly?
Considering what we have here with this administration, I know the only way to get through this war is to trust in God. He is the only one who can help us.

I've got to go get some sugar, so here is my opinion short and sweet. I am sick and tired of anyone and anybody trying to make it look as though there is a trace of decency related to Biblical teachings in the current WhiteHouse. Quite the opposite, you fools that believe such for it is people like you that get the shaft, support the lies and act as though there is a shread of decency, honesty, integrity and genuinity. None whatsoever in this current ADMIN-- not a spike of anykind on any screen, not a Bible verse that supports such.. absolutely nothing, so get-off the high-horse trying to create that which is not even inately wanting to get out! www confidentialsources com Oh, did I forget the New World Order--not really.

I've got to go get some sugar, so here is my opinion short and sweet. I am sick and tired of anyone and anybody trying to make it look as though there is a trace of decency related to Biblical teachings in the current WhiteHouse. Quite the opposite, you fools that believe such for it is people like you that get the shaft, support the lies and act as though there is a shread of decency, honesty, integrity and genuinity. None whatsoever in this current ADMIN-- not a spike oa anykind on any screen, not a Bible verse that supports such.. absolutely nothing, so get-off the high-horse trying to create that which is not even inately wanting to get out! www confidentialsources com

This is all CIA propaganda. The fact is US govt elites worship Satan.

Short answer: I don't. I have no "faith" at any time. Faith is a kind of wilfull stupidity. Faith - listening to the prejudices and desires of your heart rather than considering evidence and thinking about likely outcomes - contributes heavily to war.

It is just beyond me how expressing faith in the supernatural - ie, admitting to operating outside the dictates of reason - is not only not a laughable disqualification but actually a requirement for anyone running for high office in the United States. Until this ends, America will continue to elect Christian idiots who use the nation's armed forces to play out their own stupid fantasies. If we had a lot less faithkeeping and a lot more thinking there would be many fewer wars.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Had the President's courage been based on FACTS rather than faith, we might not have had the war in Iraq. I wholeheartedly agree with HK. Religion is a blinding force that is invoked, at best in vain, at worst to justify the worst crimes. Viva Darwin.

Faith is just the willing to accept that which can not be fully known. It is funny that folks say Bush has faith, when almost every religion said/says what he is doing in Iraq is immoral -- even his Methodist relegion!!! Just look at the numbers -- somewhere around 100k Iraq citizens dead, over 800k in Syria and an equal number in Jordan. How can anyone put his "faith" in a positive light given the stark facts??? It is not defensible at this time. The convient Chirstains are in charge. Using faith to justify immoral actions is amazing and folks that repeat this lie are a strange lot. john

Wow, what a profoundly stupid question.

Amen to HK

Diderot said it best-

Man will never be free until the Last King is strangled with the entrails of the Last Priest.

(just this once- AMEN!)

Since "faith" and God have been the main reason for wars thru the centuries, I live a very happy, full, and strong life without religion.

I urge others to evolve too.

Since "faith" and God have been the main reason for wars thru the centuries, I live a very happy, full, and strong life without religion.

I urge others to evolve too.

What! No more evangelical atheism???

(Only Henry James posting eightfold, he doesn't count.)

I;m going home.

When Will They Ever Learn?
When Will They Ever Learn?

We thought Pete Seeger was trite and romantic when he intoned these words.

But the very fact that WAPO sponsors this question -
how can you keep your Faith during war -

shows that we still don't get it.

The First Thing We Should Learn from War
is to

Lose Our Faith.

Faith is the tool our leaders use

to make us REady to Kill and Die for God and Country.
Get it?
God and Country.

There is No God, War Tells Us

The phenomenon of SOME people turning to God in times of helplessness and chaos

is further evidence that God is Man Made,
a Wish Fulfilment that weak humans (and we are all weak) fall back on in their child-like regression during these times of stress.

Far better to develop a mature, healthy approach to, and understanding of, Death, such as the Buddhists often achieve (without supernatural mumbo jumbo)

or that Pulitzer winner E Becker outlined in The Denial of Death.

What kind of a God inspires his people to senselessly kill each other? What kind of God tells the Israelites to commit genocide right after the admonition "thou shalt not kill?"

The answer: a Man Made fantasy.

Not of ourselves, it is a gift from God.