Mormonism

I am a Mormon through and through, dyed in the wool, true blue. I rejoice in my religion because it makes me happy and helps me to try to be a better person. Everything I believe is all centered around Christ. I think that Nephi describes it quite beautifully, "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies that our children may know to what source the may look to for a remission of their sins[viz. Christ]." (2 Nephi 25:26). I am saddened when others feel the need to bash, argue, deride, manipulate, misquote, etc. . . to promote whatever ends they desire. I think that all Christians can agree that Jesus taught this truth -- "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (John 13:34). And also Paul when he said, "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and striving about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:9).

I sometimes wish that everybody would just shut up and start helping those that need help and administering to the needs of the poor and the needy. I am glad that people implore their God-given right of reason to think for themselves. That is wonderful. But to suppose that your reasoning is higher or to reject what anyone else thinks is just ignorant and does not illustrate that you are trying to follow the admonitions of Paul. I think that President Gordon B. Hinckley said it best when he said, "We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it." (Interview with Larry King Live, September 8th, 1998). We have agency to decide and choose for ourselves. We don't deny it nor control it, but allow anyone and everyone to come and find out for themselves if what we say is true. We say as did Paul, "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." (1 Thessalonians 5:11).

Finally, I want to reiterate what Paul wrote to the Ephesians. "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." (Ephesians 4: 31-32). I find Paul's words to be very soothing and comforting. In the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. (See Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, and Philippians 2:10-11).

You can thank your lucky stars that the framers of the Constitution were dead and gone before Smith & Young appeared on scene. Otherwise, the polygamists would have been chased off of the continent by the Continental Army.

With the progenitors of North American polygamy gone, we wouldn't be dealing with the FLDS mess in Texas, today.

In view of Mitt Romney's campaign experience, and the Pew Forum poll results showing 24% of registered voters would never vote for a Mormon for president regardless of his or her other qualifications, the media seem to be saying that Mormons are suffering from a case of social whiplash. Many Mormons probably feel very "mainstream" within their individual social circles, even those outside of Utah. Perhaps the only thing we can say with certainty is that religious bigotry (the complete intolerance of any faith that differs from one's own) is alive in millions of Americans. I'm glad the framers of the Constitution felt otherwise.

David,
I decided rather than give a long explanation to go with a short answer: read Malachi 3. The Lord must have other purposes for record keeping than for His memory's sake. (I really believe that.)

Again, I hope your family is all well. Have a great 2008.

David,
Hello, kind friend. I just noticed your comment from November. I'll reply tonight when I have time, but if you happen to see this I hope you and your family are doing very well, and had a nice time on your vacation of the last time we communicated. Best to you.

Mitt Romney has stirred the hornets nest. His faith is in the Mormon tradition - recast the image to suit the need of the moment. We cannot deny our core values.
Ohg.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2007/10/10/mormons-the-beginning-theology/

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I have to agree with Jason and cannot seem to find the logic in the tithing meetings. If it is an honor system then why the sit down? It would seem to insinuate some form of guilt on the person. And Parker, (hello again) you said that the LDS church keeps those tithing records for the day of judgement. I see a huge problem with that in that you must be assuming God needs help remembering things. Does God need a file cabinet? Is the LDS God not omniscient? It doesn't make sense Parker, sorry. And by the way, Rev 20 deals with the White Throne Judgement which is post millenial and those who are judged at that time will all be in hell. It is reserved for those who did not believe in Jesus or the true Jesus. So if you want to save those files for the White Throne Judgement feel free, but your works won't save you. The only thing that can save you is your faith in the true Jesus which I still pray for for you my friend.

Much love to you and yours.

David

Anubis:

Who is checking your "facts?" Every point you made about the LDS church was a half-truth or plain wrong.

C.K.,
I realize you weren't talking to me since you wrote about fear-based religious belief and that is nothing I or anyone I know experiences, although many are Latter-day Saints (Mormons). I agree that the more one moves away from fear and the desire to blame their circumstances on someone else or some institution, the better off one is by looking right into the mirror and saying, "I am responsible for my actions, my attitudes, my biases (by evaluating and changing what needs to be changed), my choices, and my lack of knowledge if I choose to be misinformed." There is a realm of knowledge that you evidently choose to ignore, and that is your right, but you needn't think you have all the knowledge in the world.

There are far better sources for researching Mormonism than here. But serious study takes patience and willingness to think outside of your own knowledge base. Peace to you.

I connected to this site via the Washington Post.

I've read all of the comments posted until 7:15 PM, Sunday November 11,2007.

The commentary is the same defensive used by every other 'believer' of every organized/self-serving group of people, whether they are believers of a religion: (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu etc.,etc.; a political body (the Nazi's, Stalinists, fascists e.g.) or a group of people in a town acting as JUDGE and JURY against anyone who does not think the way they do. (The Mexicans are taking away our jobs, or homosexuals are responsible for the DEMISE of our nation, etc...). The tactics are always the same. It's bait that never fails to attract the people who live in fear of being RESPONSIBLE for themselves.

Religion is a disease acquired by insecure, frightened people and it is ALWAYS marketed as a tool to promote egalitarianism and freedom for those people. It is then used as a tool to SEPARATE people and create more fear and confusion for the followers to create political and financial power by the organizational LEADERS over believers against the 'outsiders' or non-believers.

Works like a charm all the time for all the SHEEP in this world!

Jason,
You've asked a reasonable, legitimate question and made a logical assumption. But you may be familiar with Revelation 20:12, which to me is "the obvious answer" as it says:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These tithing records are stored in a confidential way, and add another piece to the mosaic of a person's life when they will one day stand before the Savior to be judged as to how they lived their lives on earth, at the day of judgement. Obviously, the Savior would know about our lives whether or not such a record was kept, but the "accountability" for our lives rests with each of us. I consider such a declaration to a bishop to be a sweet experience as he is a representative for Jesus Christ called by revelation to act in His name.

You need not be suspicious of the motives of LDS church leaders in these matters. When Jesus organized His church on earth in New Testament times, He organized a leadership structure for those who would be called to spread the gospel and to help administer the affairs that were needed to have places for members of the church to hold meetings and strengthen each other in their faith, as well as to look after the poor, the widows and the orphans. A reporting model that reflects personal accountability is consistent with Biblical teachings and patterns. Peace to you, Jason.

Why have the settlement meeting if it's on the honor system? Doesn't make sense unless the meeting is to squeeze more money out of the payer. Why do Mormons always try to explain away the obvious?

Anubis:

There is a correction I need to make to your post, which was close to the top of this thread.

You claimed that Mormon leaders keep track of how much income each Mormon makes to determine if they are paying an honest (full 10%) tithe.

That is not true. Tithing Settlement goes like this: At the end of the year the bishop arranges to have tithing settlement meetings with each family by posting a sign-up sheet. Members can CHOOSE to go to tithing settlement or not. Nobody harrasses anybody if they don't go. The ward will be reminded about the sign-up sheet till the end of the year, and then it's gone.

In Tithing Settlement: In his office, the bishop hands you a piece of paper that lists your donations for the year and asks if that is a full tithe. He may or may not even look at it. You either say yes or no. If you say no, you might want to write a cheque for the difference -- or not! If you say yes, he may ask how you liked the ball game, or how your life is going, and blah, blah, blah, end of interview. If not, you may wish to outline your financial struggles -- or not.

It's all the HONOR SYSTEM. Memebers are free to lie about being full tithe payers if they want to because NOBODY in the church knows their income or cares! But why would they bother? They don't HAVE to go to tithing setlement! I have skipped it myself on several occassions, even as a full tithe payer, just because I knew the question would be asked in my temple recommend interview.

I don't know how you evengelicals get these stories started. I suspect it is pretty much like the childhood birthday party game where all the kids sit in a circle and one whispers a secret to the next child. The secret is passed from child to child around the circle and finally the last kid announces the secret -- only its nothing like what was originally whispered! Sigh.

But it is curious to me that few of you actually change your mind when you are eventually corrected. I've just outlined a tithing settlement interview for you, but I am fairly certain that MOST of you will cling to the belief that the Mormon church closely monitors the member's income and forces us to pay tithing.

You might want to consider what clinging to that mistaken belief means to you.

Pastor,

Shame on you for defending Mormonism and at the same time pretending you are not a Mormon. As a Mormon of more than 50 years, I and other Mormons can tell your language is riddled with Mormonspeak.

For those of you who aren't Mormon, here are some of the giveaways: Enclosing the words "Christian" and "calling" in quotes. Using the word "calling" itself to refer to a church position. Referring to the Bible as the "scriptures." Using the terms "the Savior" and "Christ-like" instead of Jesus.

If you really believed the LDS church were true, you wouldn't need to hide behind the lie of a false front.

PASTOR quote: "Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could."

This is an all out lie.

Currently in Oklahoma alone about 50% of our offerings go to several Humanitarian funds and underprivileged funds. In fact Oklahoma has a children's home (adoption home) just outside the city that is jointly supported by several different religious groups including Catholics, Baptist, and other protestant groups. Not to mention all the supported food banks and care-centers.

Pastor would know that if he attended even one financial meeting at his local Christian church.

AND WHEN was the Mormon church ever "voluntarily quite open with their holdings" ask any member of the Mormon church if they get a break down of where church money is spent. They won't be able to tell you. On the flip side the Mormon church closely monitors what members give it's called "tithing settlement". The Mormon church records what members make to be sure they are paying their 10% in tithes. (or else they can't go to heaven, meaning they can't go to the LDS temple)

Currently the Mormon church has bought and refurbished a MALL for over 2 billion dollars. That's an awful lot of food for starving children.

Pastor, I'm going to say you look a lot like a "lying for the lord" Mormon.

The worst part about this (like the Pastor)is that Mormonism it trying to look like mainstream Christianity. Even on national TV the president of the Mormon church lied about deeply rooted doctrine (see Larry King Interview with Gordon B. Hinckley).

Who checks the facts when Mormons (and other cults) lie on what used to be factual journalism.

PASTOR quote: "Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could."

This is an all out lie.

Currently in Oklahoma alone about 50% of our offerings go to several Humanitarian funds and underprivileged funds. In fact Oklahoma has a children's home (adoption home) just outside the city that is jointly supported by several different religious groups including Catholics, Baptist, and other protestant groups. Not to mention all the supported food banks and care-centers.

Pastor would know that if he attended even one financial meeting at his local Christian church.

AND WHEN was the Mormon church ever "voluntarily quite open with their holdings" ask any member of the Mormon church if they get a break down of where church money is spent. They won't be able to tell you. On the flip side the Mormon church closely monitors what members give it's called "tithing settlement". The Mormon church records what members make to be sure they are paying their 10% in tithes. (or else they can't go to heaven, meaning they can't go to the LDS temple)

Currently the Mormon church has bought and refurbished a MALL for over 2 billion dollars. That's an awful lot of food for starving children.

Pastor, I'm going to say you look a lot like a "lying for the lord" Mormon.

The worst part about this (like the Pastor)is that Mormonism it trying to look like mainstream Christianity. Even on national TV the president of the Mormon church lied about deeply rooted doctrine (see Larry King Interview with Gordon B. Hinckley).

Who checks the facts when Mormons (and other cults) lie on what used to be factual journalism.

My goodness! For a non-Mormon, "Pastor" certainly does use a lot of Mormon buzzwords, doesn't he?

Could it be that "Pastor" is really a Mormon pretending to be a non-Mormon? Could not happen? When I was a faithful tithe paying Mormon, a Mormon friend boasted to me that he would often join in a debate and pretend to be a non-Mormon, praising the Mormon Church by saying things like: "I have Mormon friends. They are really nice" and so forth.

He believed that he was justified as he was "doing it for the Lord." When I suggested that The Lord would not appreciate people lying on his behalf he got quite cross with me!

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To RCB (July 3)~

I plugged the names of some of those organizations into the Google search engine. When I got to the Board of Directors of the Bonneville Corporation, I clicked on the links to their resumes. These folks are obviously not "small potatoes". While Jim Baker had some kind of resort or theme park somewhere, I don't see these folks in the media involved in some of the other types of embarrassing transactions in which he was involved, although anyone has that potential. While not all, some have been widely involved in professional activity well outside Utah. This is a slightly-different gallery of people than we might have expected among what some label as devil-worshipers. These are obviously respectable citizens.

Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could.

I've been working at a Southern Baptist church for nigh onto 17 years as an outside contractor. During that time, their congregation has split twice, always over money or facility issues. Recently, in conversation with a young minister working there, he explained to me that there is a new trend among several "Christian" churches that I hadn't known before. He said many groups are getting away from a focus on churches (the buildings) and preachers. They live in quasi-communes where an entire group will have shared ownership in the property. I've learned from Mormon friends that they have no secular interest in their buildings. In fact, once the construction of a new building is completed, before it is inhabited, it's paid for. Their buildings are apparently very simple, but incorporate the most up-to-date systems. Their ministers generate their own income as a psychologist, public school principal, dentist, etc., and are "called" to serve in their ministerial capacity as a volunteer and only for a limited period of time until they are released from their calling and replaced by another person. With the exception paying competitive salaries of professional people who work for their church, all the Mormon Church's revenues pay for new buildings, maintaining all their buildings, part of their missionary effort (except for living expenses that each missionary is responsible for themselves), educational services, and worldwide humanitarian efforts. Some "Christian" congregations split because one faction doesn't agree with their minister. How well I know this. I realize such an event could never occur in the Mormon Church.

I've examined it thoroughly. There is nothing selfish about the Mormon Church or its members. They give/serve freely of their time and talents, not only to their church, but to the community (local, state, national, international).

What all the "Christian" turmoil seems to boil down to is extreme jealousy. I've learned that Mormon missionaries convert our "Christians" and instantly reduce the pastor's salary. And so, we see "Christian" church ministers arming their libraries and bookstores with anti-Mormon literature, much of which amounts to nothing other than gossip, innuendo, and hate.

I personally know a few people who joined and then left the Mormon Church. It's sad, but these folks are often the ones who spread hate toward this church. Exactly why is impossible to always know. However, it does make me wonder why they allowed themselves to "unwittingly" join it to begin with. If they are such intelligent decision-makers, what happened? I do believe that we need to stop childishly throwing mud at them. It's like some bullying playground behavior. Right now, these people are reaping a TON of nationwide media attention, and anti-Mormons are fueling it left & right. This group has never enjoyed so much of it, ever. If people look beyond the mud-slinging, they eventually become educated as to the benefits of Mormonism, and they discover that it's really quite an admirable group that does an enormous amount of good around the world, despite the recipients' race, color, creed.

We as "Christians" need to befriend these folks, not make them our enemies. If I were Mormon, I wonder just what I would think of all the mud. It would raise my wall of resistance too high to navigate for anyone. As "Christians" believing in the New Testament and followers of Christ, we need to take stock of our own practices. We need to clear the shelves in our church and personal libraries of ALL hate literature. We need to seek these folks out in a peaceful, Christ-like way so they will know in their hearts that we love them just as our Savior does. We need to rise above hate, and make our Savior pleased with us. All the answers are available in the Scriptures and prayer.

It could possibly be that the whole issue over Mormonism at this time might be about the upcoming presidential election, and an opportunity to use it as a tool to slander his religion. If we plan to vote, our decision must be based on who will best represent our beliefs about the importance of a stable family and the relationship between a husband and wife and their children, conservative spending, what will be taught in our schools, working respectfully with other nations, patriotism, who will have the right to be married (and enjoy tax benefits therefrom) if that's what you believe, will there be legal abortions available everywhere, who will revere our national heritage, strengthen our military, be living most closely the laws of God as described in the Bible. Any true Christian can figure out who to vote for by studying all the candidates and determining not to vote for a candidate that doesn't have a chance of winning. In this election, we have the opportunity to either lose big, or win big. I want members of my congregation to have the most freedom from government, taxation, to have the most safety and security from terrorists, to have their grandchildren enjoy the same kinds of freedom. I often wish we had more front-running candidates to choose from but, of those out there, I already know who I will vote for despite my personal disagreement with what one of their ancestors did.

To RCB (July 3)~

I plugged the names of some of those organizations into the Google search engine. When I got to the Board of Directors of the Bonneville Corporation, I clicked on the links to their resumes. These folks are obviously not "small potatoes". While Jim Baker had some kind of resort or theme park somewhere, I don't see these folks in the media involved in some of the other types of embarrassing transactions in which he was involved, although anyone has that potential. While not all, some have been widely involved in professional activity well outside Utah. This is a slightly-different gallery of people than we might have expected among what some label as devil-worshipers. These are obviously respectable citizens.

Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could.

I've been working at a Southern Baptist church for nigh onto 17 years as an outside contractor. During that time, their congregation has split twice, always over money or facility issues. Recently, in conversation with a young minister working there, he explained to me that there is a new trend among several "Christian" churches that I hadn't known before. He said many groups are getting away from a focus on churches (the buildings) and preachers. They live in quasi-communes where an entire group will have shared ownership in the property. I've learned from Mormon friends that they have no secular interest in their buildings. In fact, once the construction of a new building is completed, before it is inhabited, it's paid for. Their buildings are apparently very simple, but incorporate the most up-to-date systems. Their ministers generate their own income as a psychologist, public school principal, dentist, etc., and are "called" to serve in their ministerial capacity as a volunteer and only for a limited period of time until they are released from their calling and replaced by another person. With the exception paying competitive salaries of professional people who work for their church, all the Mormon Church's revenues pay for new buildings, maintaining all their buildings, part of their missionary effort (except for living expenses that each missionary is responsible for themselves), educational services, and worldwide humanitarian efforts. Some "Christian" congregations split because one faction doesn't agree with their minister. How well I know this. I realize such an event could never occur in the Mormon Church.

I've examined it thoroughly. There is nothing selfish about the Mormon Church or its members. They give/serve freely of their time and talents, not only to their church, but to the community (local, state, national, international).

What all the "Christian" turmoil seems to boil down to is extreme jealousy. I've learned that Mormon missionaries convert our "Christians" and instantly reduce the pastor's salary. And so, we see "Christian" church ministers arming their libraries and bookstores with anti-Mormon literature, much of which amounts to nothing other than gossip, innuendo, and hate.

I personally know a few people who joined and then left the Mormon Church. It's sad, but these folks are often the ones who spread hate toward this church. Exactly why is impossible to always know. However, it does make me wonder why they allowed themselves to "unwittingly" join it to begin with. If they are such intelligent decision-makers, what happened? I do believe that we need to stop childishly throwing mud at them. It's like some bullying playground behavior. Right now, these people are reaping a TON of nationwide media attention, and anti-Mormons are fueling it left & right. This group has never enjoyed so much of it, ever. If people look beyond the mud-slinging, they eventually become educated as to the benefits of Mormonism, and they discover that it's really quite an admirable group that does an enormous amount of good around the world, despite the recipients' race, color, creed.

We as "Christians" need to befriend these folks, not make them our enemies. If I were Mormon, I wonder just what I would think of all the mud. It would raise my wall of resistance too high to navigate for anyone. As "Christians" believing in the New Testament and followers of Christ, we need to take stock of our own practices. We need to clear the shelves in our church and personal libraries of ALL hate literature. We need to seek these folks out in a peaceful, Christ-like way so they will know in their hearts that we love them just as our Savior does. We need to rise above hate, and make our Savior pleased with us. All the answers are available in the Scriptures and prayer.

It could possibly be that the whole issue over Mormonism at this time might be about the upcoming presidential election, and an opportunity to use it as a tool to slander his religion. If we plan to vote, our decision must be based on who will best represent our beliefs about the importance of a stable family and the relationship between a husband and wife and their children, conservative spending, what will be taught in our schools, working respectfully with other nations, patriotism, who will have the right to be married (and enjoy tax benefits therefrom) if that's what you believe, will there be legal abortions available everywhere, who will revere our national heritage, strengthen our military, be living most closely the laws of God as described in the Bible. Any true Christian can figure out who to vote for by studying all the candidates and determining not to vote for a candidate that doesn't have a chance of winning. In this election, we have the opportunity to either lose big, or win big. I want members of my congregation to have the most freedom from government, taxation, to have the most safety and security from terrorists, to have their grandchildren enjoy the same kinds of freedom. I often wish we had more front-running candidates to choose from but, of those out there, I already know who I will vote for despite my personal disagreement with what one of their ancestors did.

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

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Mr. Parker & I had an exchange a while back about funding for the Mormon church's new shopping center in SLC.

I came across this astonishing list of church enterprises. Possibly this is the source of some or all of the funding:

Companies affiliated with the Mormon Church include:

(1) Beneficial Financial Group
(2) Bonneville International Corporation
(3) Deseret Book Company
(4) Deseret Morning News
(5) Hawaii Reserves Inc.
(6) Temple Square Hospitality Corporation
(7) Zions Securities Corporation

(http://www.deseretmanagement.com)

Christian:
That was a nice post.

Back to the question that is at the heart of this string: Where do Mormons stand with respect to mainstream American culture? I think the answer is that they are influenced by America and influence America, especially in political and religious matters. They are accepted as mainstream in the Western US (except in the coastal Northwest, where they are ridiculed and shunned by the left and religious right), villified and respected in the South and looked upon with respect in the Midwest and Northeast. How do I know? I am a Mormon who has lived and worked all across this land. I think Mormons are accepted politically and culturally. However, I find that they are not accepted by some "mainstream" (whatever that means) Christian churches in their religious community and are often attacked by smear campaigns.

The funny thing is that my name is Christian. I believe in Christ. I study and revere the Bible. However, a few Christians attack my beliefs as not being Christian because they seem to think they have the whole claim on truth and on Christ Jesus (I think only God has such a claim). I walk with Him and talk with Him and He tells me I am on the path to salvation. You can disagree but that doesn't change the truth He has planted in my heart.

When I studied at BYU, I was the only Mormon who was part of the evangelical Bible study club (yes, not everyone at BYU is Mormon). Week after week, it became clear to me that we were speaking of the same Christ and we lifted each other up in faith. I believe it is the devil who tries to divide "Mormons" from "Catholics" from "evangelicals" from so many others who believe in Christ. In that spirit, I act in concert with many Mormon and non-Mormon Christian friends to teach of Christ and His redeeming power.

It is not purity of doctrine that will save us all in the end. Jesus Christ is the only one who can save us. In that belief, I find that I am part of mainstream religious America, no matter how much others try to label me and exclude me from salvation through the blood of the Lamb.

One last thing, I believe the political anti-religious left in this country loves dividing Mormons from evangelicals and other conservative Christians, because they know that if we stand together, America will be a country of strong moral values where God is revered and loved for generations to come.

For all you true believers on this post (some of them truly scary) espousing the ten commandments, I challenge you to name them, in any order, without looking them up. Proper wording is not necessary.

I'm curious to see how many actually can.

Mormonism is a very strange religion that modern Mormons, especially the LDS General Authorities, try to mask with Osmond-white smiles and gleemingly perfect families.

The fact is that most Mormons don't know the half of how bizarre their religion is, and the half they do know, they are not going to tell you. They call it "giving milk before meat".

Ask Mormons to explain to you the Book of Abraham, the Adam-God theory that Brigham Young taught. They won't mention blood atonement or Kolob to you.

Mitt Romney recently lied that Mormons don't believe in polygamy. Mormons think that all worthy men will have multiple wives, and that Heavenly Father and Jesus each have multiple wives in heaven. Polygamy is only banned on Earth because the US government forced them to do so in 1896, and again in 1901. Modern Mormons are embarrassed and uncomfortable talking about polygamy, but the fact is they still call it the "New and Everlasting Covenant".

Most Mormons won't tell you about the Temple Ceremony, and most don't know how Joseph Smith stole it from the Masons, or how the LDS Church has shortened it and taken out many offensive parts from it. They will just tell you "it's sacred, not secret."

Mormons can be very nice people, even if they are taught to be passive-agressive by their culture. That doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith invented a bizarre religion, Brigham Young preserved it, and the Mormons have spent the last 50 years trying to tell everyone that they are just good, wholesome, patriotic Christians.

Mormonism is pretty crazy -- just like all Christian sects.

TC:

You may be right. In fact, I think we'll all be very surprised by what we didn't know and thought we knew.

Tom

all i have to say is if you believe in mormonism, you are an idiot. furthermore, when you die and all becomes made clear, you are going to say to yourself 'wow i am an idiot'

Well, Dave. I'm still not clear.... This replaces my 3rd paragraph:

Clicking "Response" opens separate window. Complete the response, "Preview" then "Post" as you have it. New window closes, my response follows directly under, indented, the one I'm addressing. Any number could do same to original comment, as well as to each other. Every window has a "Response" and each new window has a "Preview" and "Post." Washington Post IT gurus might need to look at format to see if 4, 6 or other indention is enough.

Morning, Dave.

The current format allows for "comments," but once made they are randomly placed at the top of the page, in the order in which they are made. As a result, Participants are repeating themselves with "new" questions, ideas or answers. Can't be helped.

Much time is needed in order to comb through discussions to see what is new, a follow up or old. Can't afford many late nights to participate. Rather than dig through volumes of discussions to find, read or join a specific topic, a "Response" hyperlink imbedded at the end of each comment may be useful.

Click "Response" at the end of a comment would then follow directly below and indented, not at the top. Subsequent back and forth comments, either to the original topic or follow up comments would likewise be indented below the item commented on.

Indenting off of the main comment to no more than 4-6 times (a random number) restricts the body of texts for ease of reading.

Park University (www.park.edu) uses this type of format for its' on-line class room discussions.

Tom

LtCol Tom Sakievich:

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you elaborate? What do you mean by "allow responses to be indented one through four. All other responses would flow under four."

Thanks.

David Waters
Producer, "On Faith"

WEBMASTER: It would be far easier to follow topics and blog members is you would allow responses to be indented one through four. All other responses would flow under four.

"Life" doesn't allow the luxury of time to return to the blog every week. Would be good if we could read without attempting to comb through all that is written.

Thanks. Tom

Thank God for Deut 18:20-22, Matt 7:15-23, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 1 John 4:1,2 Tim 4:2-4,1 Cor 14:32-37,Isa 30:9-14,Jer 5:31, Deu 13:1,Jer 14:14-16.

If it weren't for those, how could I know what is true teaching or false?

Prov 2:6,9-11 (NIV) For the Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.... Then you will understand what is right and just and fair--every good path. For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you.

Thank you God for giving me words from your mouth so that I can gain the knowledge to discern the right from lies.

God bless

Entertaining to watch all the spats among the superstitious. Got any good rain dances for us?

Anonymous,
Thanks for the reminder about the test this blog has been for some of us--can we practice what the Savior taught about love and forgiveness despite being criticized for following Him? I know I have much growing to do in how I love and forgive those who ridicule our beliefs that I hold as precious as life itself.

Thank goodness for the teachings of the Savior in Matthew 5.

Leslie:

You wrote: "watch your tongue because you never know when you could be blashemying against the Holy Ghost"

Really? I NEVER know? Is it that mysterious? Do I have to walk around COMPLETELY clueless as to which teachings are from God and which are not?

Actually, NO. The Holy Spirit lives within me, so He would not lead me to blaspheme Him. He gives me knowledge and wisdom regarding His precepts. He has also given me His Word, which I use as a "double-edged" sword. The one side cuts through false beliefs; the other side cuts through ME and tells me when my heart and my actions are not in sync with His will.

Paul tell us to "test everything". John tells us to "test the spirits". Both the Old and New Testaments talk about false gods, false beliefs, false prophets and false teachers. I know God wants me to discern His teachings and His will from human or satanic teachings and practices.

That's what we're doing here. David and I have written a lot on this thread. I'd like to invite you to show me where our teachings differ from what God has said in the Bible.

Leslie,

So are you saying we should accept all false doctrine just because someone says they believe in Jesus? I'd like to know what you believe in. If you are an LDS, do you accept Jehovah's Witnesses to be a true Christian church? Please tell me what the ten commandments have anything to do with questioning the faith of one's beliefs BIBLICALLY. Also, how do you know what you believe in is the TRUTH?

I am a christian, and all I have to say to all you who have so much to say about the Mormon religion is.... They believe in Jesus Christ our redeemer so they cannot be a wrong church. Again if you have any thing else to say maybe you should go back and read the 10 commandments and you will see that the first is Do not take the lords name in vain. Perhaps you should write all ten down and for each commandment it can mean alot of things, so write what you think they can possibly mean to you and obey them... I don't think talking badly about a church is christ like.
And another thing I would watch your tongue because you never know when you could be blashemying against the Holy Ghost!

Here's an analogy. It's my attempt to explain how frustrated I am hearing LDS interpretations of the Bible.

Let's say you walk by a cheap painting on velvet. You say, "Look! Dogs playing poker." Then, the person next to you says, "Actually, they're plotting to take over the world."

Really? It sure looks like they're playing cards. Could they be plotting a coup? I guess if dogs could read cards and smoke, they could plot. But, there is NO WAY you could ever look at this painting and get that idea on your own.

Next, the guy next to you says, "Yeah, and those are not cards in their hands; they're guns. And, they're not dogs; they're angels."

Huh??? They look like dogs. And they are holding cards. I don't see any guns. I don't see any angels.

In this analogy, it is clear what you are seeing, but the person next to you swears that there is more to the picture than what you are seeing, and he says what you are seeing is not what it clearly seems to be.

That's how I see Mormons reading the Bible. What it clearly says is not really what it means. And, there are hidden meanings that you could never guess in a million years.

When it says there is no marriage in heaven, it means there really is marriage in heaven for those who earn it. When it says there is only one God, it means there are many gods but they are of one purpose. When it says Adam and Eve sinned against God, it really means they did a good thing since God needed them to eat the fruit so they could advance God's plan. When it says that those who deny Jesus go to eternal hell, it actually means all good people end up in one of three really nice places for eternity.

We pre-existed. We can achieve godhood. We have work to do to perfect ourselves. None of that seems to be in the Bible, but it really is. You have to believe it first and then God will show it to you.

Are you kidding?

The god of Mormonism is a trickster. He says one thing but means another. He gives us obvious scriptures but they don't mean what they seem to mean. He keeps revealing things that run contrary to what he has already said. He runs a secret church that discloses things as people are worthy to receive them.

I am so happy that this mean god does not exist. I praise Jesus that He is the God who communicates His will to us so clearly. I am thrilled that He never changes. I am thankful that He thought ahead of time to write every false teaching that would ever appear on earth into His Word, so we would recognize it when we see it.

He is one God. He has always been God. He is all powerful. He never changes. He is love. He gave Himself for me. He loves me. He has forgiven me. He communicates clearly to me.

That's my God. That's my Jesus.

Parker,

Hi again.

I just want to address the Trinity once again. I read over what I posted and I still can't believe that I compared the Trinity to superman. What was I thinking?? LOL.

Anyway, I'd like to take back my comments about how I TRIED to explain the Trinity. I was searching last night on how to explain such a topic. In words it is very difficult. In Spirit I can understand. The one major thing that needs to be evaluated is that the Bible clearly teaches of ONE God. Not "oneness". Big difference. I can cite a bunch of verses that say that God is ONE God, but I'm sure you know them already. You mentioned how us humans are always trying to "define" God. We don't need to. God defined Himself. God is three different persons, but ONE God. That statement makes no sense at all to the logical, human mind of ours, but spiritually it does make sense. We can't make sense of it because we do not think a plural can be a singular as well. I think it is comparable to how God described a husband and wife. "They become ONE fless". Of course we are two different people, but we are ONE now. I also read an anology of the Trinity that can somewhat make sense. God is like time. There is past, present and future, but it is time. Yes, quite possibly the hardest thing to understand in our finite minds concerning the Bible, but yet so true. Taking the Bible as a whole, God clearly shows us that He is but ONE God. Not oneness, but ONE as in singular. I just wonder how you account for all those verses that clearly claim the singular God? They sure can't be ignored, right?

Concerning the council of nicea and the Trinity.
As you know the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. Of course that is a man-made word to describe God. But why does that matter? It is purely biblical and just an easier way for Christians to call the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ONE God. Not that big of a deal. Just a descriptive word. It's not an added doctrine to the Bible. It's biblical in every sense. It existed before the council, but was just named that officially at nicea. Doesn't it make sense to be able to explain the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as One in the form of but one word? I know all the early Christians believed in One God and that the three persons of God formed One God. Instead of saying all that, why not call it "Trinity". It's just easier darnit.

Have a great day
God bless you

If a reader wonders whether I will respond to John, I already have repeatedly and consider it enough said on these topics.

Parker:

You have been deceived regarding the Council at Nicea. It was a formality to put down the heresy of the day. The vote was almost unanimous, so there was no debate. They put together a statement of what they believed. A similar, but much older, document is the Apostles' Creed. Both creeds are identical to what the first century Christians believed. The creeds are biblical.

Having said that, the creeds have done nothing to shape my faith or beliefs. I get my beliefs from the Bible. It so happens that I agree with the creeds, but only because they happen to be biblical. I don't recite them. It is not part of what we do at my church. But, I would endorse them. They are biblical. Contrary to what you have been taught, the creeds did not invent the concept of the Holy Trinity. The Bible gives us that, from the first verse of Genesis on.

You think I have been taught what to believe, but you're wrong. That would be you. Everything you believe comes from your leaders. So, you just keep assuming that my beliefs come from men, too. That's not the case. My faith is in who God has so clearly revealed Himself to be in the Bible.

Mr. Parker writes:

"I have no idea how much the mall/BYU SLC campus investment will cost, but I do know that no tithing funds will be spent on that project. The funding will come from investment returns as far as I know, and as far as I know the returns from this investment will provide a return also, so it is not like pouring money down a black hole. The investment will pay for itself over time."

Well, without real data, we can do nothing but speculate - and what would the point be?

I will say however, that I'm having difficulty understanding how the concepts of 'spirituality' and 'shopping-center' fit together.

Lynn:

You wrote:
"why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church...?"

un-canonized???

Did you miss these LDS scriptures I quoted?

Moses 7:8
For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3:6
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

- Are these not your scriptures?

Lynn:

You wrote:
"why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church...?"

un-canonized???

Did you miss these LDS scriptures I quoted?

Moses 7:8
For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3:6
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

Answers, anyone?

Joseph Nasu, I've already told you that the Mormon Bible is the King James Bible. So why do you insist on making snide remarks about our Bible?

Walter, why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church, especially since our enemies have twisted so many of them? Isn't it enough to know that the Priesthood blessings are for all worthy men in the church, that there are black leaders in the church, and black missionaries, and that there are temples in Africa? While you were in the church, did you ever read the Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declaration 2, or, since then, have you read about President Hinckley's experience as an Apostle at that time, their fervent prayers in the temple, the tears of joy shed by the Brethren, the witness of the Spirit that it was time, at long last, for the priesthood ban to be lifted? We don't know, and it isn't for us to judge, why there was a ban in the first place, and it does no good to keep speculating about it.

“We will have a world government wether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent.” (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

Maier Amschel Rothschild said:
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who writes its laws"

MODERN ASHKENAZI JEWS ARE FROM KHAZARIA...BUT DO YOU EVER LEARN THAT IN SCHOOL???????? THEY REWRITE HISTORY!

"We shall drive the Christians into war by exploiting
their national vanity and stupidity. They will then massacre
each other, thus giving room for our own people."
(Rabbi Reichorn, July 1, 1880)

"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of
European Jewry for a Zionist State. Everything was done to
create a state of Israel and that was only possible through a
world war. Wall Street and Jewish large bankers aided the war
effort on both sides. Zionists are also to blame for provoking
the growing hatred for Jews in 1988."
(Joseph Burg, The Toronto Star, March 31, 1988).

"Israel won the war [WWI]; we made it; we thrived on it;
we profited from it. It was our supreme revenge on Christianity."
(The Jewish Ambassador from Austria to London, Count Mensdorf, 1918)

"History, Sir, will tell lies as usual"
- George Bernard Shaw, The Devil's Disciple

David,
I will try to answer the intent of your question. When the Savior answered questions, he understood perfectly the intent of the question being posed, so he was able to answer the intent of the question when he answered the question. What would have been the intent of the question "Show us the Father"? To gain special status or recognition? To learn what kind of a being the Father is? I think the intent would logically be the latter. Jesus affirmed that He was doing the works of the Father--the works the Father had "assigned" Him (the Son) to do during the pre-mortal life before He was born into mortality. He was given a mission to perform, and He performed it perfectly.

Jesus had the same desires as the Father, the same motives, a fullness of love like unto the Father, and He understood that He had power over death because He was God. Jesus had taught His disciples all of this. By making the statement, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" He was affirming what He had already taught them--that if they "saw" the Father, they would see that the Father was exactly like the Son in every visible respect and in every characteristic.

The term "polytheism" is not a term I would use in describing the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Where did that word "polytheism" come from and what are its connotations? I view it as a Hellenistic word, which is not anything like what I am talking about nor what Jesus was talking about. They are "one God" because their purposes are alike, they act like each other would act in a given situation, they think alike, and they comprehend the thoughts and intents of mortal beings in exactly the same way.

But of course the Father and the Savior knew there would be this difficult struggle of comprehension for Christianity to "define" God (and if one were to read about the council of Nicea, they would find there were differences of opinion on this subject so "struggle" is a legitimate word to use), so when you say "we worship a different God" I do not agree, because I understand your intent in that when you pray to God as you have Him in your mind's eye and I pray to Him as I have Him in my mind's eye, I think He listens to each of us lovingly and patiently and omnisciently. He understands the intent of our hearts, the intent of our prayers, the intent of how we treat others, and He responds compassionately to all of His children who pray to Him despite misunderstandings they may have been taught or developed on their own with respect to the kind of a being He is.

More important than understanding Whom we pray to is understanding that the atonement of Jesus Christ was the most important event in all of eternal history; I know that you believe the importance of the atonement and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the fruits of those events. We both believe in a literal resurrection that will happen to all of us, made possible only through Jesus Christ. I am hoping that on that point we both agree, though we may not agree on the details.
Blessings and peace to you, David.

Hi Parker,

So am I correct in assuming that the LDS faith is a faith to be considered polytheistic?

This is my objection. The Bible clearly states that God is ONE God. CLEARLY. Making the Christian faith a monotheistic faith. So, there are a few verses where Jesus talks to the Father. He also mentions how the Father is greater than He is. What is a normal human assumption? That they are seperate beings. But then you have verses like John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord, my God". And in John 10 Jesus says, "I and the Father are One". Or how about this one.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

Did not Jesus Himself call Himself the Father? You cannot ignore this. I have struggled too with a Triunity Godhead. It is one of the harder things to comprehend in the Christian faith, but I think THE most important to recognize. What helps me understand is remembering that Jesus was 100 percent human and 100 percent God. Also, being human He was lower than the Father (Himself). This is why He considers Himself (as Jesus on earth) lower than the Father (in heaven). It's merely a positional status.

I hate to put it this way, but I think it might help to understand. It's kind of like God has alter egos. Like superman. He's superman (the Father). He can do anything. Unlimited powers. But then He's Clark Kent. Like Jesus, His powers are limited due to His nature. So of course superman is greater than Clark Kent, but they both are the same person. I forgot to add the Holy Spirit in this terrible analogy of mine, but I couldn't think of how Clark Kent had a third ego. (I'll probably kick myself in the butt after I post this). :(

Anyway, that was probably the worst analogy ever, but I'll keep it just in case someone gets the idea or even if it brings a little laughter to this conversation.

But anyway, back to the subject. You can take verses out of the Bible and construe any meaning you want. But you have to take the verses out that might just go against what you believe sometimes to know what God is really trying to tell you. So you take verses about Jesus calling Himself lower than the Father, Jesus actually prays to the Father, but ignore when Jesus calls Himself the Father. If you think that they are seperate beings, then you are convinced that the Bible contradicts itself and therefore the God of the Bible is not real. But if you acknowledge that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are One God with three different purposes, then you can put all those verses together that seem contradictory and have a Bible that does not contradict itself. I guess what I'm saying is that your own belief contradicts itself. Please think about it. Don't ignore certain passages because they don't fit into your belief system. Let the Holy Spirit guide you to what is truth. The only way doing that is to take the Bible as a whole instead of disecting it into pieces that are appealing to you.

I know you made it a point that we shouldn't discuss this because you say you have your reasons for believing and I have mine, but I have shown you where Jesus says He IS the Father. I ask that you show me where He says He is not the Father. Have a great evening.

God bless you

RCB,
I have no idea how much the mall/BYU SLC campus investment will cost, but I do know that no tithing funds will be spent on that project. The funding will come from investment returns as far as I know, and as far as I know the returns from this investment will provide a return also, so it is not like pouring money down a black hole. The investment will pay for itself over time.

Some are critical. Why isn't this money being spent helping the poor, they ask. What about the job creation involved? That helps an economy of an area. What about long-term job creation for many mall employees? What about long-term job creation for those involved in the tourism industry? What about long-term generation of funds through goodwill among many people that will provide funding for humanitarian causes throughout the world? The business world looks at the long term. I think the mall decision was a long term decision.

David,
Thanks for your kind thoughts. If I understand your prior comments, you believe in the "Nicene creed" triune God. I believe in a personal God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as separate loving divine beings who are totally unified in their purpose and counsel. I believe that such a physical separateness is consistent with the Bible, and I understand that you disagree on that point. I think we shall never agree on that point. The point simply can't be proven from the Bible, because too many verses point toward my beliefs. I think to point them out is wasting both our time, because they have been repeatedly discussed herein.

John,
Are you saying I am the first person you have heard of who says the Blacks have a need for stronger families with fathers in the home? You must be kidding, or perhaps don't read very widely. I read such in editorials (not by LDS, but by Blacks) very often. I think most Blacks in the U.S. come from a Christian religious background, so yes I think they need more than just a belief in Christ as their Savior--they need solid footing on a foundation that says the Ten Commandments are rules that can still bring blessings to their families. But they don't need to hear it from me. They need to hear it from their peer leaders--that's what I said previously.

LDS believe in the Abrahamic covenant (still in effect), the blessings available through covenant-making regarding keeping the Ten Commandments (still in effect), the everlasting covenant given to Israel, the "new covenant" spoken of by Jeremiah, and the baptismal covenant spoken of by the Savior. I am aware we would have different views on these, and when I said that some of the Old Testament lacks understanding on your part I was talking about Isaiah, Malachi, Ezekiel, Daniel, Amos, Hosea, parts of Genesis, and other passages. But no sense quibbling over it. There are not short-term fixes for long-term needs (short-term fixes unless accompanied by a might change in the heart of the person, yield no long-term benefit), nor do I pretend to know what ways God is doing a good work through you as you do your best to love Him and serve Him the best way that you know how, among those who know you personally. Again, best wishes in that process.

Parker,

Thanks for your response. I know it must be hard because you may feel "outnumbered" here, but I would hope that you take our criticism as an act of love. I truly believe we are trying to point you in the right direction, BIBLICALLY.

I just have one question for you Parker. After all that we have discussed here, do you feel like we worship the same God? You seem to indicate that "we found our way" and "you found yours" so God bless you. Period. I do feel like we worship a different God. This is my reasoning for having these discussions with you. I'm just curious if you feel the same way? Thanks

God bless

Mr. Parker (regarding LDS real-estate development):

I couldn't find particularly instructive web sites on the subject. The project appears to involve two shopping centers, and a new BYU campus. The investment by the Mormon church is about 1.5 Billion dollars. (Are these facts correct?)

Anyway - an investment of that size, by a relatively small sect, in a relatively small area, is curious.

What is the source of those funds: borrowed, friendly-corporate donors, membership tithing?

PARKER:

I am a little troubled about some of things you just wrote, I think. I am not sure because it's not clear what you meant.

First, you wrote:
"I will be brave and say that there are troubling trends in society as to out-of-wedlock births and single parent homes that need to be confronted by cultures that ignore such trends, including by the peer leaders among them. Blacks need peer leaders who will be strong on encouraging keeping the Ten Commandments--no matter what church they attend."

Hmm. Could you be adding insult to injury by singling out Blacks with respect to sex outside of marriage and single parent status? This is widespread in our culture. I don't think anyone thinks it is good. But, why point the finger at Blacks? And, why say that they need help with the Ten Commandments? Don't we all? Are you saying they are worse than the rest of us?

I don't actually know what good it would do to teach someone to obey God's law if they do not KNOW Him. You may be putting the cart ahead of the horse. Instead, I would say that all people who are in sinful lifestyles should be loved by us and encouraged by us to engage in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. He will show them His love and move them to make the changes He wants them to make. (He did it for me!)

An idolator can stop. An adulterer can stop. A thief can stop. A murderer can stop. A liar can stop. But, stopping won't heal or save any of us. Since we have already broken God's law, it is too late to turn a new leaf. We can only make things right when we make it right with God. That's why self-help is bogus. You can't help yourself. You just can't. So, you can preach the Ten Commandments all you want, but I prefer to share the love of Christ. He's the only one who can truly help someone. Without Jesus, the law is useless. The only purpose of the law is to show us how sinful we are and to draw us to Him for forgiveness, salvation and transformation.

You also wrote:
"I see no benefit in your spending any time at all reading about LDS beliefs at this point in your studies of the Bible. I don't sense that you have read or pondered the meaning of Old Testament writings enough to have a foundation, so it only gets you into making accusations that are untrue and show the lack of the foundation I am talking about."

Parker, we are learning about LDS doctrine so we can converse with you and show you the Truth. David and I have been very honest about our motives. We are using what we have learned DIRECTLY FROM MORMONS about LDS beliefs to point out the departures from the Bible and God's will. Paul did the same things when talking to the Athenians. He used what he knew about their culture, religion and philosophy as an entry to introducing them to the God of the Universe. We are also using what you believe to try to introduce you to the Real Jesus of the Bible.

I have no idea why you think we have not read the Old Testament. David and I have been quoting it all over this thread.

I am not sure why you referrred to Gospel "covenants". Why is that word plural? The term "New Testament" (in Hebrew "B'rit Hadoshah") means "New Covenant". It is singular. There is ONE covenant. Jesus said His shed blood was the blood of the covenant - singular. Jeremiah referred to this new covenant - singular. Why do you say there are Gospel "covenantS" (plural)? I am curious. I hope you respond.

I suppose that RCB wants an opinion about the Salt Lake City mall project and its cost. I have gotten over some initial misgivings about it. We live in a society for which travel and tourism are important factors in the use of many peoples' time. (Look at Nevada). Salt Lake City and Temple Square are tourist attractions. Why not make them as attractive and inviting as possible, so people will choose to come there rather than go, for example, to Nevada where so much money is spent on such vast wastes of time? I look at it as the LDS Church trying to establish a clear alternative to current cultural trends that are not uplifting for the culture, especially for families, and realizing that such a project requires a significant investment yet being willing to make that investment to benefit many numbers of people, LDS and non-LDS.

'Just got back from out of town visiting family members in another state. Sorry to have kept anyone in suspense about a response. I do feel badly about what some past LDS leaders have spoken about Blacks (though not what Joseph Smith said and wrote), and I feel badly that some Blacks who have joined the LDS Church may have felt some sense of not being welcomed in certain neighborhood "wards"--because I know that would really be painful and cause one to question if such persons were following the Savior. We are all imperfect, which is why change and repentance are so necessary. In 1978, Bruce R. McConkie said to forget what he or any other Church leader had said about the Blacks prior to 1978, because more light and knowledge had been revealed to the world. He acknowledged that he had been wrong. He was sincere. I believe with all my heart that he was wrong, and Joseph Fielding Smith was wrong in their speculation as to the Blacks.

I will be brave and say that there are troubling trends in society as to out-of-wedlock births and single parent homes that need to be confronted by cultures that ignore such trends, including by the peer leaders among them. Blacks need peer leaders who will be strong on encouraging keeping the Ten Commandments--no matter what church they attend.

The scriptures quoted about the people of Canaan earlier from the Book of Moses were focusing on ancient times, so they have no bearing on today or the nineteenth century. The scriptures quoted from the Book of Mormon can very easily be misunderstood out of context. The "curse" was the loss of the Holy Ghost by a whole culture through their having turned away from God. The "curse" was not the dark skin--the dark skin was the "mark" of that culture (the Lamanites) having turned away from the God of Israel and having lost the Holy Ghost. That mark only applied to that culture in the Nephite-Lamanite time period, not in the nineteenth century and certainly not today. Skin color today has nothing to do with people's relationship to God, and no scripture can be used to support any such dilineation if understood in context.

However, these questions will most definitely be trials of faith for some people. I suggest one who has such a trial of faith should read the Book of Isaiah and the Book of Abraham several times, and try to begin to understand how the gathering of Israel and of the "Gentiles" is prophesied during the latter days, such that all the families of the earth will receive the promised blessings of the fullness of the priesthood and all the gospel covenants through Jesus Christ.

David, I don't hang my head about the Book of Mormon or the Book of Moses. Can they be misused and misunderstood? Yes. The Bible, as we have seen, can also be misused and misunderstood. I feel certain that God's plan allowed for such misunderstandings, both in a merciful way and in a way that allows for important knowledge to be hidden from those who are not ready for it spiritually through their own spiritual preparation. Paul talked about that.

I encourage you'all to follow the truths that you know, and to continue to seek more spiritual guidance in your lives that will bless your families. I see no benefit in your spending any time at all reading about LDS beliefs at this point in your studies of the Bible. I don't sense that you have read or pondered the meaning of Old Testament writings enough to have a foundation, so it only gets you into making accusations that are untrue and show the lack of the foundation I am talking about. But do as you wish. We all have much to learn, and we follow an imperfect process in attaining the knowledge that will help us.

WOW! I am extremely amazed. I knew the LDS had a past of racial discrimination and I was willing to not even bring that up. I hoped they got through that and learned to treat others as equals. But now John shows where in the BOM it shows this rascism....that just disturbs me. And somehow it is logical to believe in the BOM??? I can see how maybe these views of people of color could be some sort of doctrine that they changed over time and hoped to be forgiven for, but this is actually in the "scripture" that you base your beliefs on?? Parker, I think you got some explaining to do.

Walter, I am sorry that you have been treated this way. I hope it hasn't affected your faith in God in any way. Take care friend and thanks for sharing that info with us.

God bless

Mr. Parker writes:

"I don't know why the previous writer didn't go ahead and quote all of the Tanner's books against Mormonism. They made a lot of money out of such material ..."

I very much doubt that there is much profit being made - the Tanners appear to be a mom & pop operation serving a finite market.

If you want to question the effect of lucre on credibility, then why not talk about the shopping center being built by the Mormon church in Salt Lake City? That can't be playing well with the carpenter who threw the money-lenders out of the temple.

PARKER:

I was moved by WALTER's post. I could feel his pain. He did an effective job translating his feelings into words. It sounds like he is still dealing with those issues.

This is not just something social from a previous era. IT'S IN THE BOM! It is in your scriptures!

I just did a search on lds.org. Here are the results:

Moses 7:8
For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3:6
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

Parker, these are your scriptures. They are part of your belief system. This is not on the level of the founding fathers who fought for freedom but denied it to their black slaves. The difference is that the founding fathers did not WRITE INTO THE CONSTITUTION that blacks were cursed by God! In fact, they were not even mentioned in the Constitution.

Or, take the Catholic Church's mistreatment of Jews for centuries. This was wrong, but there are no scriptures to support treating Jews, or anyone, badly.

This is a very real issue. I am disappointed that you always view complaints or concerns as attacks on the LDS organization. I am also disappointd that you coldy dismiss this matter, without any remorse for the terrible, hurtful words Joseph wrote.

How can you support and believe and trust scripture that has God cursing an entire race of people?

I don't know why the previous writer didn't go ahead and quote all of the Tanner's books against Mormonism. They made a lot of money out of such material, and fomented a great deal of heartache for people such as the writer, rather than building on whatever their own faith was. The way to build people up is not to tear other people down. I have met so many wonderful Black people. I have found that those who are forward-looking and who help build communities of strength are able to greatly lift those around them. I am grateful for their tremendous example. I have no doubt Mitt Romney has experienced this also.

Why do the writer and the Tanners single out the former Mormon leaders on these issues? There were plenty of such sentiments among many early American writings and speeches. This was unfortunate and wrong, but it happened; let's get over it and move on!

In the public forum section a few days ago these are some of the comments from past Mormon Church Leaders. Someone needs to ask Mitt Romney will he take his former church leaders views on African Americans and people of color into the White House. These comments listed below are the LDS church leadership views on Black People and people of color in the past. I am African American use to Mormon but I no longer practice LDS faith. It really hurts to know the LDS Church thinks this garbage was ok. If Mitt Romney is elected are these the type of views he will put forth in his administration. There are big issues here, like Civil Rights, Immigration, Health Care and Poverty. If someone from the Taliban or al-Qaida were running for president don’t we have a right to question there beliefs. Give me a break, I can’t believe anyone things that your belief system does not effect your decision making process.

The LDS Leadership should apologize to all African Americans and people of color for the misguided policy on this issue. Don’t get me wrong love my Mormon brother and sisters, even though they have strong feelings against African American people. They have been taught all there lives that black people were inferior and they should not be apart of our pure white leadership. It’s ok, and someday they will learn the true meaning of the word brotherhood. By the way I am African American and Black as hell and very proud God made me this way. However, I am no way a descendant of Cain. I thought we were supposed to be judge for our own sins. In the Bible I never seen the word Black mentioned in that passage or did I miss something. You know if you really look around God loves variety you see it in every thing that was created. The trees, flowers, mountains and in human beings I think it would horrible if every one was white or the trees were all the same. Thank God for all the differences in every living thing on this earth.

Walter Mason
Former LDS Church Member
Salt Lake City, Utah

"Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race Problems - As They Affect the Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled, "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 307, emphasis added.

LDS - "Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the NEGROES." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

LDS - "THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

LDS - "...[T]hrough their INDIFFERENCE or LACK OF INTEGRITY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, [blacks] rendered themselves UNWORTHY of the Priesthood and its powers...." LDS "Historian" B. H. Roberts, The Contributor, vol. 6, pp. 296-297, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 293, emphasis added.

LDS - "Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not A REFLECTION OF OUR WORTHINESS or LACK OF IT IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE? ...[C]an we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children of God in DARKEST AFRICA, or in FLOOD-RIDDEN CHINA, or among the STARVING HORDES OF INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that BECAUSE OF PERFORMANCE IN OUR PRE-EXISTENCE some of us are born as CHINESE, some as JAPANESE, some as Latter-day Saints. ...A CHINESE, BORN IN CHINA WITH A DARK SKIN, and with all the HANDICAPS OF THAT RACE seems to have little opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. IN SPITE OF WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE TO JUSTIFY BEING BORN OVER THERE AS CHINAMEN, if they now, in this life accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous? Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... THIS NEGRO, WHO, IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE LIVED THE TYPE OF LIFE WHICH JUSTIFIED THE LORD IN SENDING HIM TO EARTH IN THE LINEAGE OF CAIN WITH A BLACK SKIN, AND POSSIBLY BEING BORN IN DARKEST AFRICA.... IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. IF THAT NEGRO IS FAITHFUL ALL HIS DAYS, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. HE WILL GO THERE AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race Problems - As They Affect the Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 294. Note: Allegedly, even "if that Negro is faithful all his days," he will never achieve equality with his "white and delightsome" Mormon brethren. Instead he allegedly will go to the celestial kingdom "AS A SERVANT!"


A CURSE ON THE "SEED OF CAIN" ?
LDS - "You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED OF NEARLY ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859, emphasis added.

LDS - "Though he was a rebel and an ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER IN PRE-EXISTENCE, ...Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth.... [H]e came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel.... AS A RESULT OF HIS REBELLION, CAIN WAS CURSED WITH A DARK SKIN; HE BECAME THE FATHER OF THE NEGROES, and THOSE SPIRITS WHO ARE NOT WORTHY to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 108-109, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

LDS - "...[F]rom Ham sprang the race which preserved the curse in the land." LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:24.

LDS - "Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the Negro lineage through the flood." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

LDS - "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that THE DEVIL SHOULD HAVE A REPRESENTATION UPON THE EARTH as well as God...." LDS "Prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, p. 304, 1881, emphasis added.
Note: Taylor claimed that blacks were Satan's representatives on Earth.

LDS - "Ham will continue to be servant of servants, as the Lord decreed, until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle [the U.S. civil war] free the slave? No.... Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 250, 1863.

LDS - "For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a BLACKNESS came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE." LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:8, emphasis added.

LDS - "And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all people, SAVE IT WERE THE PEOPLE OF CANAAN, to repent." LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:12, emphasis added. Note: Mormonism long considered blacks unworthy of its missionary efforts, essentially unworthy of the Gospel message.

LDS - "The gospel message of salvation is NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM [blacks]...." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

THE TRUTH: "He [Jesus] said to them, 'Go into all the world and PREACH THE GOOD NEWS TO ALL CREATION.'" Mark 16:15, emphasis added.

THE TRUTH: [Jesus said]: "Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Matthew 28:19, emphasis added.


BLACKS: NO PRIESTHOOD "IN THIS LIFE" !
LDS - "Negroes IN THIS LIFE are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added. (See also LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:20-27)

LDS - "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so WHILE TIME ENDURES. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a BLACK SKIN and have been DENIED THE PRIVILEGE OF PRIESTHOOD and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to FEEL THEIR INFERIORITY and have been SEPARATED from the rest of mankind from the beginning. Enoch saw the people of Canaan, descendants of Cain, and he says, 'and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE.'" LDS "Prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp. 101-102, 1931, emphasis added.

LDS - "I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that THEY CANNOT BEAR RULE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, for the curse on them was to REMAIN upon them, until the resedue (sic) of the posterity of Michal (sic) and his wife receive the blessings...and hold the keys of the priesthood.... In the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH THE AFFRICANS (sic) CANNOT HOLD ONE PARTICAL (sic) OF POWER IN GOVERNMENT [within the LDS church]." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, Feb. 5, 1852, as quoted in Bob Witte's book entitled "Where Does It Say That?," p. 2-9, emphasis added.

LDS - "How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will REMAIN UPON THEM, and THEY NEVER CAN HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, THE CHILDREN OF CAIN CANNOT RECEIVE THE FIRST ORDINANCES OF THE PRIESTHOOD. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp. 290-291, 1859, emphasis added.

LDS - "When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and HAVE RECEIVED THEIR RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854, emphasis added. Note: Young taught that blacks would not receive the Mormon priesthood until AFTER the resurrection.

LDS - "They [blacks] will GO DOWN TO DEATH. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which WE now are entitled to." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p.272, 1866, emphasis added.

LDS - "In the spirit of SYMPATHY, MERCY and faith, we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren - children of God - NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR BLACK COVERING EMBLEMATICAL OF ETERNAL DARKNESS." LDS "Prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102, 1931, emphasis added. Note: Even as LDS "Prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith professed "sympathy" and "mercy" toward blacks, he continued to preach condemnation and contempt for them.

THE TRUTH: "Do not let anyone who delights in FALSE HUMILITY and the worship of angels DISQUALIFY YOU FOR THE PRIZE. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind PUFFS HIM UP WITH IDLE NOTIONS. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the WHOLE BODY, ...grows as God causes it to grow." Colossians 2:18-19, emphasis added.

Mormonism contradicts Itself:


LDS - "...[W]E HAVE PLEADED LONG AND EARNESTLY IN BEHALF OF THESE, OUR FAITHFUL [black] BRETHREN.... He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come.... Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color." LDS "Prophet" Spencer Kimball, Deseret News, June 9, 1978, p. 1A, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 309, emphasis added. Note: Despite Mormonism's 148 years of teaching white superiority as the "word of God," LDS "Prophet" Spencer Kimball feigned compassion and support for blacks by allegedly intervening with God on behalf of "these, our faithful brethren." Astonishingly, Kimball seemed to actually take credit for convincing God to change His mind on the issue. Mormonism finally allowed blacks to enter the Mormon priesthood in 1978, amid allegations of racial discrimination. Kimball claimed to receive a "revelation" from God granting such access but, strangely, the LDS church has not made the contents of that "revelation" available to the public. It is also interesting to note that Mormonism has not rejected its underlying doctrines of white supremacy, which are still present in Mormon "scripture" (see LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5:16-41; 7:8, 12, 22; Abraham 1:20-27 and Book of Mormon, Alma 3:6-9, 14; 2 Nephi 5:21; 30:6-7).

Question: Blacks and other non-Caucasians still possess "dark skins" which Mormonism alleges to be an indication of inferiority, a mark of unworthiness in the pre-existence. Does this mean that the Mormon priesthood is now available to the "unworthy and inferior," as well as to those self-proclaimed "worthy and superior" individuals whom God has allegedly rewarded with "white and delightsome" skins?


THE "EVIL," THE "VILE," THE "IGNORANT," & THE "WICKED" ?
LDS - "...[T]he land was left to the possession of the RED MEN [native Americans], WHO WERE WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE.... [T]he land was again peopled, in a measure, by a RUDE, WILD, REVENGEFUL, WARLIKE AND BARBAROUS RACE. - SUCH ARE OUR INDIANS." LDS "Historian" Oliver Cowdery, LDS Messenger and Advocate, Vol. 1, July, 1835, p, 158, emphasis added.

LDS - "And the skins of the Lamanites [native Americans] were DARK, ...which was A CURSE UPON THEM.... And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might PRESERVE HIS PEOPLE, that they might NOT MIX and believe in incorrect traditions WHICH WOULD PROVE THEIR DESTRUCTION." Book of Mormon, Alma 3:6-8, emphasis added.

LDS - "Thus the WORD OF GOD is fulfilled...: Behold, the Lamanites [native Americans] have I CURSED, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be SEPARATED FROM THEE AND THY SEED, FROM THIS TIME HENCEFORTH and FOREVER, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them." Book of Mormon, Alma 3:14, emphasis added.

LDS - "Here are the Lamanites [native Americans].... Their wickedness was not so great as those [Jews] who slew the Son of God. ...Is their curse as great as that of those in Palestine? No, it is light, in comparison. They began to thirst for each other's blood, and massacred each other, from generation to generation, until they SUNK INTO WICKEDNESS, and EVIL principles the most DEGRADING, and have become LOATHSOME and VILE. Still THE CURSE WILL BE REMOVED from them before it will be removed from the children of Judah; and THEY WILL BECOME A "WHITE AND DELIGHTSOME PEOPLE." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854, emphasis added.

LDS - "And the Gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, ...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save THEY SHALL BE A WHITE AND A DELIGHTSOME PEOPLE. " Book of Mormon (1830 edition), 2 Nephi, Chapter XII, p. 117, emphasis added. Note: This passage from the original Book of Mormon has subsequently been altered by Mormonism's leaders. The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 30:6, now reads: "they shall be a PURE and a delightsome people." Substituting "pure" for "white" seems to indicate that Mormonism considers those two words to be interchangeable. The logical assumption, then, is that Mormonism also considers "NON-white" to be the equivalent of "impure." Even in this attempt to obscure its racist "scripture," Mormonism continues to divulge its underlying doctrine of white supremacy.

LDS - "I would rather undertake to convert five thousand Lamanites [native Americans], than to convert one of those poor MISERABLE CREATURES [Jews] WHOSE FATHERS KILLED THE SAVIOR.... Yes, I would rather undertake to CONVERT THE DEVIL HIMSELF, if it were possible. ...I would say, LEAVE THEM, AND COME HOME, THE LORD DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO STAY THERE, FOR THEY MUST SUFFER AND BE DAMNED. ...[L]EAVE THEM TO LIVE AND DIE IN THEIR SINS and IGNORANCE. ...[T]HEY TAKE PLEASURE IN THEIR WICKEDNESS...." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854, emphasis added.

Hi John,

You know lately I've been reading about what God could be telling us in His Word, scientifically. I'm assuming the Big Bang Theory is the most widely regarded theory for how creation began. I read that the Hubble telescope can see that the universe is continuing to expand at a rate of 186,000 miles per second. So this tells scientists that it had to start somewhere if it is continuing to expand. Biblically there can be a case for this Big Bang theory.

Isaiah 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

Isaiah 45:12
"I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

Isaiah 51:13
"And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"

Jeremiah 10:12
"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion."

Jeremiah 51:15
"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding."

Job 9:8
"Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea."

Job 26:7
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Psalm 104:2
"Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:"

God very well could have just said He "created" the heavens, but instead He insisted on "stretcheth" out the heavens. I do not see man being "stretched" as part of creation. I think scientists just recently figured out how God did it! And what's great about that is that God already said how He did it before scientists figured it out. This is so amazing to me. I know His Word wasn't meant to be a scientific manual, but I do believe He included scientific hints, if you would call it that, so that no man could have any excuse not to believe in Him.

I found this great article on science in the Bible. It's very looooongg...but I think it had a great deal of information pertaining to how science and the Bible agree. Some may be argumentative, but still this guy makes a great case.

http://www.geocities.com/vr_junkie/thebibleandscience.htm

This might take you awhile to read if you would like, but it helped me considerably. Every time these atheists brought up evolution, or creation issues I was kind of stuck. It's hard to make a case for Christianity to atheists when they all think that Christians believe the world to be only 6000 years old. I can see how young earth creationists are giving Christianity a bad name. And I can't believe there really is a Christian based organization that still believes the earth is flat??!! Crazy.

So, lately my two studies have been finding out the beliefs of other so-called "Christians" such as Mormonism, Jeh. W's, and Catholicism. I'm trying to learn how they differ from Biblical Christianity. My other studies lately have been the scientific debate and how the Bible actually speaks of science not known to man until recently. God sure is amazing. And it seems the more we find out about science, the more it leads to God. Have a great day John

God bless you

David:
You mentioned not being able to fully comprehend God creating everything. Did you know some scientists think that almost the entire universe came to be in less than THREE SECONDS?

WOW! He just spoke it into existence. That's how powerful and amazing our God is. He just said it and it happened.

One of the biggest problems for scientists is explaining a cause behind that "Big Bang". Knowing that God was the force behind that action helps explain it, but it still blows me away!

Parker,

Here's our difference. You said Christ was "A" God. I say Christ IS God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. The Father is God on His heavenly throne and therefore His powers are infinite. The Son is Jesus, which we call Him the Son because of positional status. He became a man. You may ask why Jesus refers Himself less than the Father. Because as a mortal human, he was! The Father in heaven could not come down as Himself in His glorified body and do what the Son (Jesus) did. Can you imagine a ghost walking around preaching to everyone. Wouldn't that affect the free will that God so intended for us? He came down as a man. When I think about Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, I see God's self-sacrifice. I think you got it all mixed up. If you say that Jesus and God are two different beings, you fail to recognize the importance of God's sacrifice. Also, if you can remember when we had a debate on the words Jehovah and Elohim. Remember the verse, "the Lord is my God". "Jehovah is my Elohim". This being in the OT shows Christ's pre-existence and that He (Jehovah) is God (Elohim).

I believe in the Triunity. You do not. This is a HUGE difference. The Bible says there is only ONE God, repeatedly. So how can Jesus, being God, be a seperate being from the Father, who is God as well? They are not. They are One in the same. He is God with three different functions. The Father (Creator, and a whole lot more), the Son (Saviour) and the Holy Spirit (who works in us to do His will through us). Without the Holy Triunity, you have a God who says He is the Only God "and none came before Him, and none will come after Him" but then the Son is a God as well?? How contradicting, right? That's not God's nature to be contradicting, therefore it is not true. Jesus IS God. Even the Jews knew Jesus said He was God. Why do you think they crucified Him? They just weren't willing to accept it and called it "blasphemy". So if they knew he referred to Himself as God, why didn't they believe Him? Because they knew too that the OT said there is only ONE God!! So, it only makes sense that Jesus is God, just God on earth or known as the "Son". He is also known as the "Father" when He is in His heavenly dwelling place. He is also known as the "Holy Spirit" when he enters the hearts of men. Three different functions....same God.

I really hope I explained that ok. The Trinity is the hardest thing to explain because it is not humanly logical. But God (The Father) makes all things possible even when they don't seem to make sense in our finite minds. We can only comprehend a fraction of what God knows. I mean, can you really comprehend how God created everything? It's incomprehendable and I know He intended it to be that way so we can stay in awe of His powers. So not all things can be comprehended by our tiny human finite minds. So why can't it be possible that the Father sent Himself down as a human to be sacrificed for the sins of the world? With God everything is possible. And with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as One, it makes it possible to believe in a non-contradictory God.

John,

Thanks for you words. The thought of "finding the right church instead of finding the right God" came to me one night awhile ago while seeking His Word. I think about that all the time because I truly believe God was speaking to me that night. I felt like that thought came into my head so spontaneously that it was literally a direct message from God. I do believe that that was the night that made me realize what God was all about. I used to think that I had to find the "right church" as well. It was frustrating, because every one I attended seemed to have something missing. It wasn't until I finally got to know God personally that I realized that what was missing was me knowing God. I do think about that quote a lot because it reminds me that God was telling me to keep the personal relationship with Him and to rely on Him for everything. I went to church for the wrong reasons before. I thought I could know God through other people. I came to find out that that's why its called a "personal" relationship with God. I needed to know Him through me. Now I can finally enjoy fellowship and know the God that I love so much. It's amazing how God works isn't it? Thanks again for this fellowship we have here. I truly am blessed to have a brother in Christ as yourself.

God bless

Parker,

Here's our difference. You said Christ was "A" God. I say Christ IS God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. The Father is God on His heavenly throne and therefore His powers are infinite. The Son is Jesus, which we call Him the Son because of positional status. He became a man. You may ask why Jesus refers Himself less than the Father. Because as a mortal human, he was! The Father in heaven could not come down as Himself in His glorified body and do what the Son (Jesus) did. Can you imagine a ghost walking around preaching to everyone. Wouldn't that affect the free will that God so intended for us? He came down as a man. When I think about Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, I see God's self-sacrifice. I think you got it all mixed up. If you say that Jesus and God are two different beings, you fail to recognize the importance of God's sacrifice. Also, if you can remember when we had a debate on the words Jehovah and Elohim. Remember the verse, "the Lord is my God". "Jehovah is my Elohim". This being in the OT shows Christ's pre-existence and that He (Jehovah) is God (Elohim).

I believe in the Triunity. You do not. This is a HUGE difference. The Bible says there is only ONE God, repeatedly. So how can Jesus, being God, be a seperate being from the Father, who is God as well? They are not. They are One in the same. He is God with three different functions. The Father (Creator, and a whole lot more), the Son (Saviour) and the Holy Spirit (who works in us to do His will through us). Without the Holy Triunity, you have a God who says He is the Only God "and none came before Him, and none will come after Him" but then the Son is a God as well?? How contradicting, right? That's not God's nature to be contradicting, therefore it is not true. Jesus IS God. Even the Jews knew Jesus said He was God. Why do you think they crucified Him? They just weren't willing to accept it and called it "blasphemy". So if they knew he referred to Himself as God, why didn't they believe Him? Because they knew too that the OT said there is only ONE God!! So, it only makes sense that Jesus is God, just God on earth or known as the "Son". He is also known as the "Father" when He is in His heavenly dwelling place. He is also known as the "Holy Spirit" when he enters the hearts of men. Three different functions....same God.

I really hope I explained that ok. The Trinity is the hardest thing to explain because it is not humanly logical. But God (The Father) makes all things possible even when they don't seem to make sense in our finite minds. We can only comprehend a fraction of what God knows. I mean, can you really comprehend how God created everything? It's incomprehendable and I know He intended it to be that way so we can stay in awe of His powers. So not all things can be comprehended by our tiny human finite minds. So why can't it be possible that the Father sent Himself down as a human to be sacrificed for the sins of the world? With God everything is possible. And with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as One, it makes it possible to believe in a non-contradictory God.

John,

Thanks for you words. The thought of "finding the right church instead of finding the right God" came to me one night awhile ago while seeking His Word. I think about that all the time because I truly believe God was speaking to me that night. I felt like that thought came into my head so spontaneously that it was literally a direct message from God. I do believe that that was the night that made me realize what God was all about. I used to think that I had to find the "right church" as well. It was frustrating, because every one I attended seemed to have something missing. It wasn't until I finally got to know God personally that I realized that what was missing was me knowing God. I do think about that quote a lot because it reminds me that God was telling me to keep the personal relationship with Him and to rely on Him for everything. I went to church for the wrong reasons before. I thought I could know God through other people. I came to find out that that's why its called a "personal" relationship with God. I needed to know Him through me. Now I can finally enjoy fellowship and know the God that I love so much. It's amazing how God works isn't it? Thanks again for this fellowship we have here. I truly am blessed to have a brother in Christ as yourself.

God bless

David,
P.S. I re-read your piece and notice that LDS doctrine concerning Christ as the Son of God confuses you. Christ was a Divine Being, a God, in the pre-mortal life where we knew Him and the Father. Together, they created the earth for us. Heavenly Father offered a plan that Christ accepted and we accepted, whereby Christ would come to earth with power over mortality and power to suffer the infinite atonement for our sins so that though all of us would sin we could be resurrected and be glorified. So Jesus was more than a man when He came to earth--He was God in the flesh.

But I have realized that you don't much care about LDS doctrine per se, only want to take exception to it and try to contradict it, so I again wish you well as you study the Bible and receive the answers you seek as you read it. I am sure you will be blessed as you lift and help others. That is Christianity in its purest form.

David:

Your last post almost left me speechless. I love what you wrote about finding the 'right God' and not the 'right church'. I also like what you said about people not being able to mislead us, since it is God who has called us through His word.

Thanks for sharing this part of your testimony. It blessed and encouraged me! Thanks.

John,
My answer to the final question of your last post is an unqualified "yes".
David,
Like I said before, truths have been confirmed to me through my own study and reasoning, my own faith and the Holy Ghost's witnesses to me, and experiences and blessings in my life and the lives of my loved ones. You seem to think I'm listening to someone else and parroting what they tell me to believe. Not so.
John and David,
I'm glad you love the Bible and study it, including finding more each time you study it. If you really do that with a sincere heart, you will be on the right road; then, if you add sincere prayer about what you read and about questions you might have (wanting to learn more, not just to prove a point to someone else), you'll progress more in your knowledge and understanding. Best to you in that process.

I know we all come to Christ in many different ways and what I am about to share is just the way I did, not meaning that this is the only way to come to Christ.

When I first starting seeking God with all my heart, I was in my young adulthood stage of intellectual thinking. Like I said before, it had to make sense in my head for me to believe it. I went to church here and there but never devoted myself fully to His Word. Even though it was great to fellowship with other Christians and to hear a preacher preach, I could never seem to devote myself fully. Not until I read the Word myself could I gain a clear understanding of what God wants from us. I didn't attend any church for quite some time. Instead, I read the Bible every day. I couldn't get enough. I studied, studied, studied. At first, I found contradictions. "So work is not a requirement for salvation." But wait! "What is James talking about, 'faith without works is dead??" Study, study, study. The more I studied the more I realized how there were no contradictions, but instead they all fit together to make a complete story and a guide for life. When God's Word made sense to me intellectually, I finally was able to accept Him and live the life that I was intended to live. I still have a lot of studying to do and probably will never gain a FULL understanding of God's works. But I gained enough to know that He loves me and I love Him. So, where does church play in this? I realized something. Something very important. So many people look for "the right church" but do not look for the right God. I still see it today even in Christian churches. A devotion more to the church than to God. Parker, are you more of a devout Mormon, or a devout follower of Christ? I think this is a clear message that John M and I are trying to get across. It's about God. Not about any organization of men. I now go to church to fellowship with other believers and to worship God. I feel my worship is more worthy now, now that I know God through His Word. I had a hard time before worshiping someone that I didn't even know. And this is what seperates us Parker. We know a different Christ than you do. So when we worship, we worship our Christ. When you worship, you worship another Christ, different from the Bible. Christ, the brother of Lucifer? Christ the man, who BECAME God? This is a different Jesus than preached by the early apostles. So when you refer to us as finding Christ our own way and you yours, we found two different Christs. Isn't this an important difference? The only way to know the True Jesus is by His Word. Not through any church taught by any man. So ask yourself a question Parker. Did you find the right God by means of His Word, or did you find God by means of an organization? I found Him in His Word, then I could finally enjoy the organization of men worshipping Him, knowing they could not lead me astray. One of your articles of faith says that the Bible is one of your authorities, AS LONG AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY. Who in the LDS gets to decide who translates it correctly. Doesn't this leave open for one of your church leaders to say you read the Word incorrectly? And who are they to decide? Isn't this dangerously cultish to you? Because then you have taken away the minds of the members and placing their faith in the "translations" of man. I promise you, you don't need a "seer stone in a hat" to figure out God's true meaning.

God bless

PARKER:

You say that God wants us to know more than just what is in the Bible. I have two comments on that:

1. There is SO much in the Bible alone that great theologians in all ages have spent their entire lives delving into it. Once I think I understand a passage, I read it again I see even deeper truths that were once not visible to me. I agree that God leads us to knowledge as we are ready for it. I guess I am saying that I have so much to get to know about the Lord in the Bible that I cannot imagine any time soon looking to an additional source. My time is occupied on the Bible. It is a living book.

2. If I were to move on to another potential source of revelation, it would have to gel with what God said in His first book. In fact, I have read many parts of the BOM, and I have searched into LDS doctrines (directly from LDS), and I find them in conflict with the Bible.

One thing I think you miss is that you never read or studied the Bible in the absence of LDS teachings and the BOM. So, you have never read it impartially. You have never read it as a stand-alone work. You cannot claim to have approached the book without any bias. I can claim that. I do read it with an open mind and an open heart. As a result, I believe I see it as God intends for me to see it. Everything I know about Him comes from Him. Can YOU say that?

PARKER:

You say that God wants us to know more than just what is in the Bible. I have two comments on that:

1. There is SO much in the Bible alone that great theologians in all ages have spent their entire lives delving into it. Once I think I understand a passage, I read it again I see even deeper truths that were once not visible to me. I agree that God leads us to knowledge as we are ready for it. I guess I am saying that I have so much to get to know about the Lord in the Bible that I cannot imagine any time soon looking to an additional source. My time is occupied on the Bible. It is a living book.

2. If I were to move on to another potential source of revelation, it would have to gel with what God said in His first book. In fact, I have read many parts of the BOM, and I have searched into LDS doctrines (directly from LDS), and I find them in conflict with the Bible.

One thing I think you miss is that you never read or studied the Bible in the absence of LDS teachings and the BOM. So, you have never read it impartially. You have never read it as a stand-alone work. You cannot claim to have approached the book without any bias. I can claim that. I do read it with an open mind and an open heart. As a result, I believe I see it as God intends for me to see it. Everything I know about Him comes from Him. Can YOU say that?

John,
Great analogy. Our difference seems to boil down to this: if God wanted you to know something, it seems you believe He would have had it written into the Bible in a way you could understand perfectly--otherwise, He doesn't want you to know it. I see the Bible as a basis of truth and a springboard for getting at truth and understanding it, but I think God wants me to know more than just what is in the Bible. In fact, He offers it to all mankind as they are ready and desirous to receive it. That's what the Holy Ghost and revelation are all about.
We approach truth from completely different perspectives, and "never the twain shall meet."

PARKER:

I have a theory that people form a view of the actions of others based on their own history. What I mean is that an observer witnesses something a person says or does and then ascribes a motive to that person that the observer would have had if they acted or spoke in that way. This is the normal human tendency to think that others are just like us, or should be just like us.

Let me explain why I say this here. It seems you assume a few things about the Christians who are trying to talk to you on this thread. For example, you, and other LDS, have stated that we believe what we have been taught. You also have said that we interpret the Bible the way we want to. Applying my theory, I wonder if you assume those two things because you yourself base your beliefs on what you have been taught, and you yourself interpret the Bible the way you want to.

Just because you act a certain way does not mean I do. I'd like to look at both of your apparent assumptions.

First, I do not get my theology from men. I just don't. "Theology" literally means "the study of God". The Bible is primarily about God. It is the source He uses to reveal Himself to us. So, I let HIM teach me. I do not trust men, and I have not let any teachers tell me who God is.

This leads to the second assumption you make, that I read the Bible the way you do. You see me quoting verses and I think maybe you think I am just hunting for verse that make my case, and ignoring all of the verses that do not make my case. That seems to be what LDS do. That is NOT the way I read the Bible. I know what the entirity of Scripture says. When I hear a false doctrine, I am able to call upon the things God has taught me and give you some examples of verses that contradict the false interpretation.

I try to read the Bible as if I am on a desert island. Imagine that I have never heard anything about Jesus, the Church, the Bible or Christianity. I am on a cruise and there is a terrible shipwreck. I am the only survivor. I am on an uncharted island, and along with me washes up someone's Bible. It has no notes, commentaries, dictionaries, maps or study tools in it; it just contains the words of the Bible. Now, if I read it over several times and come to believe it, what would I believe? I really think I would believe what I now believe. That is how I have always read the Bible. I read it on my own, but in the Spirit. I let God's word speak for itself. I let God teach me. I bring no agenda of my own. I do not read it with selfish motives because I understand it is not about me.

If I were to read the Bible on that island, I could read it for twenty years and I would never come up with the idea that I pre-existed in heaven and that God sent me down here to be perfected. I would never dream up in a million years that I would be married to my wife (and many others?) in heaven. It would never cross my mind that people of any religion would all go to a glorious place as long as they lived a good life. I would never get the idea that Adam and Eve actually did a good thing by eating that fruit, that they were helping God with His plan, and that they opened the door for us to become like Him.

I would not only never get those ideas in my head, but even further, if I got rescued by a couple of Mormons in a yacht and they told me what they believed, I would know to reject it based on what I had read with my own eyes.

Maybe David and I are proving my theory about people also. Maybe we are assuming that you should read the Bible the way we do just because that's how we read it. Maybe we are assuming that God's will for your life should be more important to you than listening to your family and friends, because that is how we feel. Maybe we are assuming that you, like us, also believe the Bible is about God and not you. Maybe we assume you know that God can teach you what His Word means, without the need for people to read into it, since that's what we believe. Maybe we are forcing our idea on you that any human teaching has to be proven by comparing it to the Bible, since that's what we believe.

Until we can abandon our own actions, motives and ways of thinking, we will not be able to really see what the other is thinking and feeling. Maybe we should all stop posting lengthy posture statements and start asking questions like, "Why do you think you believe that?", and then wait for a response.

What do you think?

John and David:
I'm getting ahead of the game by answering you in advance. John, I answered your question, but not how you thought I might or thought I should. I'm giving this a rest tomorrow. There are plenty of resources for all of your questions. I hope you both can understand that free will choice is a very important teaching in Mormonism, so if I choose whatever and you choose whatever, we ought to respect each other's choices and not try to force or coerce people into our way of thinking. You've made a choice, and I've made a choice, willingly, on our own, after much study and the experiences of life. I respect your choice.

John M:
The Bible doesn't say that, sir. David (after he was repentant) said "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" and John spoke the words of Christ who said He has "the keys of hell and of death." "Every tongue shall confess" Jesus is the Christ, meaning they will finally eventually repent, if not in this life then in the spirit world, when they finally understand what the gospel is all about.
Sorry to disappoint you. But believe what you will, just don't trouble yourself worrying about me and other LDS. We'll be working overtime in the spirit world when that time comes, then working some more after the resurrection--not something it sounds like you'd enjoy. Learn, learn, learn--that's what Mormonism is about. Keep learning and growing, improving, changing, loving what God loves, finding new insights in the scriptures each time we read them, gaining knowledge "line upon line, precept upon precept." Your method is much easier, and gives you what you want. I choose differently.

John M,

Thanks for the correction. Your absolutely right. I definately don't make the best preacher. I get too many ideas stuck in my head at one time and then mix them all together sometimes. But I try. I love the name analogy too. It's much more simple than mine. A lot easier to explain too. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks again John. I really appreciate you here. You've done a lot for my faith. God bless you in all you do bro.

David:

I loved your analogy about knowing what your wife likes. I agree. I sometimes use the analogy of a person's first name. How well could someone know me if they persisted in calling me "Joe"? Wouldn't that interfere with them having an intimate relationship with me?

One minor correction for you: The Church is the BRIDE of Christ, not the bridegroom. He is our groom/husband. :)

Thanks again for your perseverance and passion for God's word. I continue to be encouraged by your posts!

PARKER:

You did not answer my questions.

WHERE in the Bible are you getting the idea that people who live good lives, regardless of their religious beliefs, will inherit a glorious resurrection?

WHY do you deny the Bible's claims that those who do not accept Christ are going to hell?

I would like to see your answers.

(By the way, I care deeply about where you and your family will spend eternity if you are headed to hell. Excuse me for caring so much.)

David,
You have the most perservering attitude of anyone I have ever encountered. Over a month on here! I come back because of the possibility that someone looking for light and knowledge to help them in their life may read the Book of Mormon or go to www.lds.org or to www.askgramps.org to find answers to questions. As you are aware, by continuing the dialogue the link shows up on the main On Faith page, so I'm willing to put up with your repetitious questions.
As for logic, I have 100% logic (study and reasoning), 100% heart (Spirit), and 100% experience (doing the right thing for the right reason) that tells me that Mormonism is true. Just because your logic doesn't match mine, this doesn't mean yours is right--it's right for one person: you. Do you think everyone in the world is going to have the same logic, the same connotations for words, the same experience that provides them a framework for their logic, as you? (I hope not.)

Parker,

I've given this quote before and I'd like to share it again.

"What I believe in my heart has to make sense in my head".
Ravi Zacharias

I love this. This shows that Christianity should not be of blind faith but can be from true reasoning. But how is it reasonable that you can believe in something that contradicts what you believe in? If Jesus says there is no marriage in heaven, then how is it reasonable to insist otherwise? How does this make sense in your head? This is why I consider you to have blind faith in mormon teaching, not to be taken offensively, but because your sense of reason has been distorted by these false doctrines. Reasoning would suggest that Jesus says no marriage in heaven and that's it then! Blind faith says believe in this no matter what. Even if Jesus says otherwise?????

I know what you believe makes sense in your heart. But please explain it to me how it makes sense in your head?

By the way, Parker, all differences aside, thank you for your responses. I know you are probably a great person and I respect you fully. I hope you do not take any act of correction from my part as offensive. I do appreciate this conversation we continue to have. Thanks.

God bless

David:
Thanks for your genuine concern for my eternal welfare. I'll get along just fine. I have Biblical support for all of my beliefs, but they obviously don't make sense to you, so that is all well and good--the Bible gave you what you wanted to get from it. I have no doubt you'll have "eternal peace and happiness" through Christ. As for me, I'll be spending eternity learning and growing for a very long time, peacefully and happily but through an effort-filled process--not a joy ride. I look forward to that.

I don't disrespect my ancestors who joined the LDS Church, but I've plowed new ground through study and pondering, so your idea that I'm merely following them sounds very hollow to me. I know you're trying to convince me that I'm wrong, but the problem is that I have learned from the heart as well as the mind, so all your reasoning sounds like the sirens in "Song of the Lotus Eaters" (Tennyson). It doesn't appeal to me in the least.

Parker,

I'm glad you find happiness through God. But is the treasure you found worth keeping? How is your "treasure" better than mine? I found truth. Isn't truth greater than a false hope? I know that if I believed in pre-existence and marriage in heaven and the Bible told me otherwise, the actual book that I base my beliefs on, I would wonder if that treasure was really gold or just a worthless metal. "The truth shall set you free".

I see now that no matter what mormon teaching tells you, you will believe it. If they told you that when you die you will be with fairies and leprechauns and get to enjoy a nice bowl of lucky charms, you would believe that too. How great it would be to have a bowl of lucky charms with a leprechaun!!

I guess I've done all I could. I quoted the Bible to specifically let you know that you have a false hope in this marriage in heaven and pre-existence theories. One thing though. We are married in heaven. But that would be to Christ. His followers (the true church) will be his "bridegroom". So, I guess you will have to go back to your polygamist beliefs as well since you assume you will be married to your earthly spouse and to Christ right? I just would like to ask you, please, can you make some understanding of Jesus' sayings on marriage in heaven and Paul's teachings on no such thing as pre-existence in a mormon perspective? Am I interpreting them wrong? Or are you just un-willing to accept the fact that God already spoke out against this belief system of yours. Please help me make sense of this. I just want to know how you base your beliefs Biblically, but then turn around and have a conflicting belief system???? It would be easier for me to understand if you just admitted that you place your faith higher in the BOM and mormon teachings than the Bible.

Look, Parker. I know it's hard. You've placed your faith in the LDS probably for quite a long time now and you know no other way. You probably established a brotherhood among fellow members. To admit your beliefs are wrong Biblically would probably tear you apart. I think it would re-build you to a better understanding. I know it sounds great to be with your wife in marriage forever even past this life, but past this life we belong to God and no one else. This is our purpose from Him. He wants US. He clearly told us that there will be no marriage in heaven. I'm fine with this. I can't wait to be a part of Christ's "bridegroom" where I can worship Him and live in peace and happiness for eternity. So, if you would like to place your faith in this false hope, feel free. I guarantee you that if you get to heaven, you will not be "married, nor given into marriage". I want you to understand the truth for your sake. It hurts me to see someone fall into a belief that gives them a lost hope of something that will never occur. This is why I'm here on this post. Not for my sake, but for yours. My work is not of my own, but of Christ's so that you may know Him and have the relationship with Him that was intended. I know I am already saved. With that, I don't need to preach to you. I do it out of love, so that one day you too can have a true relationship with the One who died on the cross for you. I believe my works do not save me, so why do I do it then if in my heart I know I am already saved? Can't you see that is because I care about you and want you to hope in things that God intended for you to keep hope in. Not for false hopes that lead you astray. Please understand that this is my purpose here.

God bless

David:
I loved your analogy. I have one: I recently re-watched the movie "National Treasure" with my kids. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind or heart that I have found the incredible treasure "hidden" by God so that it can only be found with the approach he wants us to have, similar to the large roomful hidden as depicted in that movie. It is the "pearl of great price" the Savior spoke of. Why should I turn my back on that abundant treasure so I can "enjoy" the tiny tidbit you have found that warms your heart? Just because you say so, or your private interpretation of the Bible says so? I'm sorry--I say enjoy what you have, but your tiny morsel (as it appears in my eyes) does not compare with the treasure I already have. (And to think it was free for the asking and the seeking. "Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you.")

But, you say, my "treasure" requires work and yours doesn't. Yours sounds so effortless. I say, posh on that, I hope my kids learn to work and enjoy it. I'm glad Adam got work as part of the bargain when he partook of the forbidden fruit. I also hope my kids enjoy their marriage so much that they want to be married forever because they love each other so much, just as Adam and Eve did. Hard? Most likely. Worth it? Absolutely.

Parker,

Hello again. Hope your having a pleasant day.

I had a hard time with this "third heaven" when I first read it myself. So, I turned to the only way I know how to ensure the proper way of knowing what Paul meant and that is by cross referencing scripture with scripture. First off, you have to realize that Paul of course lived in a pre-scientific era. The word "heaven" was used not only to describe the place where God dwells, but also as a means of desription for the sky and outer space. Hence, the "three heavens". Here's a few verses to cross reference to show each "heaven".

The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deut. 11:17 -- Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....
Deut. 28:12 -- The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.
Judges 5:4 -- "O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.
Acts 14:17 -- "Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons;...
The Second Heaven: Outer Space

Psalm 19:4,6 -- In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other;...
Jeremiah 8:2 -- They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served....
Isaiah 13:10 -- The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8:30 (phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) -- then hear from heaven, your dwelling place...
Psalm 2:4 -- The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.
Matthew 5:16 -- In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The highest heaven, the third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven:

1 Kings 8:27 -- "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
Deut. 10:14 -- To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

I hope you found this helpful. You have to understand that they didn't have the scientific knowledge back then that we have. For other cross referencing you can see in Dante's Inferno how it is written about different levels of heaven as well, referring to the earth's atmosphere, outer space, then God's throne.

Also, I'm not too sure why you insist on pre-existence and marriage in heaven? There are two solid verses that show you they do not exist. If you truly are a Bible believer, then why can't you agree to this? I see you place your faith higher with the BOM. But, if the Bible says so (which came first and we know is the Word of God) then could you please explain to me what 1 Corinthians 15:46 means. And concerning marriage in heaven please explain to me what you think Jesus was talking about to the Sadducees in Matt 22. Now we've given our Biblical explanation for our beliefs, but I haven't heard any Biblical explanation for your beliefs. As confirmed by scripture, we know God is "never changing". So why would He say marriage does not exist in heaven in the Bible, but change His mind in the BOM? Why would he clearly state that we are not pre-existent in heaven in the Bible but change His mind in the BOM? This is a clear indication that the BOM is not a God given testimony to Joseph Smith.

I understand that you have a fulfilling life in your beliefs in the LDS faith. But, couldn't your life be just as fulfilling if not more if you could know and accept the TRUTH? You may assume that we are trying to take away your faith, but that is not the case. We are trying to build your faith in knowing the truth about God. You cannot accept a false truth and accept the real God. You must accept the real truth to know the real God. Let me give you an example:

I know my wife loves italian food and hates chinese food. If I take her out to eat at a Chinese restaurant, won't she tell me "Don't you know me?" What am I gonna tell her? "I thought you liked Chinese food?" She obviously told me what she liked before, but I didn't listen. I guess I don't really know my wife, so how could I build a strong relationship with her if I don't even know her well. But if I take her out to her favorite italian restaurant, then won't she love me for that because I have shown that I really know what she likes and that shows how much I really know and care for her. Isn't that the same way with God. How can we build a strong relationship with God if we don't even know what He's like? Or worse, how can we build a strong relationship with God if we REFUSE to know what He is really like or refuse what He has taught us? I swear I would never take my wife out for chinese or I might end up on the couch that night. And I swear I wouldn't refuse what God has shown me or I might end up out of heaven one day too. He might just tell me "I never knew you". So, isn't it of great importance to know God wholly? That can be the only way we can build a strong relationship with Him.

God bless

John M:
You are correct that a knowledge that pre-mortal life was part of God's eternal plan for his children adds breadth to the meaning of what we're doing in this life. Some good people doing the best they can do may not have heard of Christ or may not have understood because of traditions of their fathers and spiritual blindness. That is why there will still be a sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the spirit world before the resurrection. Paul speaks in Phil. 2:11-15 of "every tongue" confessing that Jesus is the Christ.

If you don't think living in the presence of Christ in a kingdom of glory is "glorious" then you could find out what Paul meant by the "third heaven"--but I gather you don't particularly like the idea of marriage so it seems like you would be quite happy in a place where there is no marriage. It seems to me you are qualifying yourself for exactly the conditions in "heaven" that you think you are going to get, so why be discontent if there was something you could have enjoyed but chose not to enjoy? Why do you care where I and my family goes and what we do in the next life? I think free will choice is important. You've made a deliberate choice based on your understanding; so have I. We both recognize that without Christ we are nothing, that He is central to our faith and our salvation.

PARKER:

I want to address one sentence you wrote. But first, I want you to know that I would have a problem with that sentence no matter who wrote it. I would correct someone from my church if they said it. I would correct someone at my Bible study if they said it. I would correct a family member if they said it. So, I am not correcting you because you are LDS.

Here it is: You wrote, "The LDS teaching is that those of whatever religious beliefs who live good lives will receive a glorious resurrection through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, who is our personal Savior and Redeemer."

WHAT??? Everyone is going to receive a "glorious resurrection" regardless of what they believe? Are you kidding? WHERE in the Bible are you seeing that?

Here's what I see:
- John 3:18 - "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
- John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
- Acts 4:12 - "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
- Romans 3:22-23 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
- Romans 10:9 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
- Galatians 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
- Galatians 3:26 - "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
- Philippians 3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

You don't see that salvation comes through Christ alone? WHERE did you get the idea that being a good person is more important than believing in Jesus?

This is a natural offshoot of the LDS belief that we preexisted as spirits in heaven. It makes sense. If we used to live with God and we agreed to come to earth to learn and grow, it would be a nasty trick if God sent us to hell because of what we did in this life. Why would anyone agree to leave the presence of God if hell were a real risk? So, it makes sense that LDS would believe that everyone ends up in a 'glorious' place, regardless of what they believe. There are two problems, though:
1. No place can be 'glorious' if God is not there; and, LDS teachings say that only sealed LDS will spend eternity with God.
2. This nonsense is absolutely NOT biblical.

- In Matthew 23:33, Jesus said of the Pharisees: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
- In Mark 9:43, Jesus said: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
- In Luke 12:5, Jesus said: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
- In Matthew 13:40, Jesus said, "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."
- In Matthew 18:8, Jesus said, "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
- In Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
- In Luke 3:9, John the Baptist said, "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
- In John 15:6, Jesus said, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
- In 2 Peter 3:7, Peter wrote, "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
- In Jude 1:7, Jude wrote, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
- In Revelation 20:15, John wrote, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So, you are denying that hell is a real place, at least for practical reasons, since anyone who 'lives a good life' ends up in a 'glorious place'. And, you are denying that faith in Christ is the only requisite for getting to heaven.

I am sorry to tell you that this doctrine is Satanic. It comes right out of the hell that you deny exists.

How can you say this is biblical? HOW???

Sam,

I'm having a hard time understanding why the beliefs of the Sadducees have anything to do with marriage in heaven. I'll post the whole account:

Matthew 22:23-32

23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It appears to me that the Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus into a false teaching AGAIN. Just because the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection doesn't mean it is not true. Jesus confirms that we will resurrect in V.30. And He affirms that we will not be married in this resurrection. Look at V 32. Jesus confirms resurrection by saying that God is a God of the "living". Surely Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are no longer physically alive on earth. So if God is the God of the living, they must be living with God. They resurrected.

So please tell me...how can these verse be understood as there being marriage in heaven? I looked at Mark 12 and Luke 20 as well and they both say the same thing. Jesus says there is NO marriage in heaven. It's that simple.

Sam, by the way, with your words you seem offended by our accusations of false teachings. I have never given you my personal opinion about your church. I have kept it strictly Biblical. It is quite obsurd to me that someone who claims that the Bible is their basis for their faith can believe in any doctrine that is a complete opposite. If Jesus says no marriage in heaven, then it is what it is. Why do you insist on thinking that you can be married to your earthly spouse and create spirit babies? There are certain things that you might be able to argue as indescriptive and therefore open to interpretation, but this one here is straight forward. I really do not know how you can come to an exact opposite of what Jesus was saying and I still have yet to figure out why the belief of the Sadducees have to do with the teachings of Jesus. Now, we do have a freedom of religion here in the U.S. so believe what you want. I'm just here to tell you that it contradicts to the Bible, and SO obviously too.

God bless

I found this an interesting perspective on this board posted about a month ago from a third party:

a post by
Travis Lee :

In all of my relationships with Mormons never have I found them strange, out of the ordinary and lacking faith in Christ. But on the contrary they have always been hard working, family loving, and successful business men. They seem to be held to a higher standard of living but seem happy never mindless. Some of the old misconceptions and myths, and rumors around the Mormon church is for me starting to become old, antiquated, and uniformed. History for the Mormons only seems to be shared from one side in history- this makes it very difficult to research a fair report and representation of what is right or not much, like the justification of slavery by the US and the Civil War, and many other situations in US history which was justified as being acceptable for decades. Joseph Smith through my research as been seen by many of his day as a remarkable, real, visionary- a man before his time. This totally contradicts what many one sided negatives say about him ever sense he was 14. I just think that with the information age today and the concept of being equal not discriminatory when it comes to race, creed, religion, gender that if we don't allow others to change then many of the mistakes of this nation will continue.

Mr Lee seems to have the most honest perspective of everyone here- I'd be inclined to consider him most objective

I found this an interesting perspective on this board posted about a month ago from a third party:

a post by
Travis Lee :

In all of my relationships with Mormons never have I found them strange, out of the ordinary and lacking faith in Christ. But on the contrary they have always been hard working, family loving, and successful business men. They seem to be held to a higher standard of living but seem happy never mindless. Some of the old misconceptions and myths, and rumors around the Mormon church is for me starting to become old, antiquated, and uniformed. History for the Mormons only seems to be shared from one side in history- this makes it very difficult to research a fair report and representation of what is right or not much, like the justification of slavery by the US and the Civil War, and many other situations in US history which was justified as being acceptable for decades. Joseph Smith through my research as been seen by many of his day as a remarkable, real, visionary- a man before his time. This totally contradicts what many one sided negatives say about him ever sense he was 14. I just think that with the information age today and the concept of being equal not discriminatory when it comes to race, creed, religion, gender that if we don't allow others to change then many of the mistakes of this nation will continue.

Mr Lee seems to have the most honest perspective of everyone here- I'd be inclined to cosider him most

Works have nothing to do with pride. The concept of self-working exaltation is not taught within the LDS church one bit- such a concept is only used to anti-Mormon groups to dissuade membership. That's why the name Jesus Christ is placed in bold face in the title of the church.
The work the church has done in New Orleans or around the world has ZERO to do with church membership. Never in any church meeting will you hear any "Mormon" talk about hoping people will join the church as a result of their service. The ONLY terms used in any official church function or talk are the following: "serving others", "Helping others", and "hoping to bring others unto Christ". In fact, in the official handbook for LDS missionaries, their purpose is stated clearly "to help others come unto Christ". Any good works done by any LDS person has nothing to do with pride or their own goodness, because any blessing or any opportunity to serve is given by that same Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world. That message of Christ is a MANDATE to those who see it to serve others around them and to do as Jesus directed and "Feed My Sheep".

You are right- works are not a requirement for salvation- but they are an invitation from our Savior to follow his example of service.

"Be Doers of the word and not hearers only"

side note:
Just because an interpretation is the simplest does not mean it is correct- read Luke and Mark again. Put it into the context of whom he was speaking to- Sadducees- read up on your history to find that Sadducees deny the resurrection, upon which question of said subject is without merit.

Wow- there are more posts on this board than any other board on this website. It is clear to me that Evangelical Christians are threatened by Latter-Day Saints. I also find it odd that such behavior is exclusive to the LDS sect of Christianity and does not do the same for Russian or Eastern Orthodoxy, who also reject "historical" Christianity, Christian sects of North Africa, and many other forms.

Here is an interesting question for the Evangelicals in the room:
If a Jew or Muslim were to die without an opportunity to hear about or accept Jesus as their savior, where are they bound? Does a just AND merciful God condemn the innocent?
Just throwing that out

Sam is a prime example of how your good works has brought you to a prideful state of mind. He claims that no sect of Christianity can compare to the works that the LDS have done. "PERIOD". Even if that were the case, what would it matter? Sorry to inform you Sam, but non-mormon Christian "sects" have established a world-wide range of helpful charities. Why don't you look up World Vision? I sponsor two kids in Kenya through them. I don't want to tell you this because of pride but just to make a point. Non-mormon Christians do good works too. Our only difference is that you see your works as a reflection of a man-made religious organization. I see my works as a reflection of Christ, not for my own sake so that I may recieve "godhood", but to glorify God. I do not want anyone to say "good job", your such a great man for sponsoring starving kids in Africa. I want people to ask why I do it. My response, "so that others can see the light of Christ in me and therefore turn their hearts to Him who has saved me". My works are not of my own. Before being saved I would never have thought of sponsoring children in Africa. I would have used the money to buy some material object for my own good. But now that I have accepted Christ, he transformed me into a better way of thinking and acting. I would rather lift someone else up who is in need than continue to feed my own ambitions. This is the work of Christ through me, not for my own sake, but for His glory. Are you doing your works for His glory or for yours? Did the LDS go to New Orleans so that God may be glorified or to show how much great works the mormon church does? I see how the LDS works now.

"Do great works so that others may join our church." Shouldn't it be "do great works so that others will join Christ"? I wish you could understand why God was so adamant about works not being a requirement for salvation. It is for the very reason the LDS do them. You have to or else you can not recieve salvation or godhood! So by doing works aren't you doing them for yourselves so that you can earn this salvation? I do them to please God because I know I am ALREADY saved. John M made a good point earlier. Look in the Bible and see where they talk about salvation. Can you not see that they refer to themselves as ALREADY saved? Salvation does not come upon dying. We are already saved! Thank you Jesus! So if we are ALREADY saved, how can adding works to the picture bring us salvation? Can you be more saved than you were before? I don't think so. Your either saved or your not. The Bible is very clear about how faith brings you salvation. Why was Paul so upset at the Galatians? Because they added works (physical circumsicion) as a requirement for salvation. He reminded them that "circumsicion of the heart" is what brings salvation.

So please understand that we are not telling you to stop doing good things. But do them for God, not for yourselves. You will never be 'gods'. There is only ONE God and all our works should be to please Him.

God bless

I've met many wonderful Christian people during my life in several different states in the United States, most of whom, when they learned that I and my family were LDS, didn't try and dissuade us from our beliefs, and treated us with respect and love. I felt their genuine love for their neighbors and their love for Jesus Christ, and I appreciated them so much.

While I am personally very thankful for living apostles and modern prophets called by God to teach and guide those who choose to follow those teachings just as did people in ancient times (while there were also many who didn't), I understand that some will not be stirred in their hearts as I have been stirred, even some who may read the Book of Mormon which to me is so precious, as is the Bible. The LDS teaching is that those of whatever religious beliefs who live good lives will receive a glorious resurrection through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, who is our personal Savior and Redeemer. Should I then judge them harshly? Not at all. Can I learn from their good examples? Yes, I can and yes I have.

Some may view me as a Christian, others may not--which saddens me only because of their misunderstanding, not because of needing to be accepted by them. God and Christ know how much I love them and am eternally grateful to them. That's ultimately good enough for me.

David:

I am encouraged by your words. Thanks!

I want you to know that I am also encouraged by your posts, and by your persistance and your love of the Truth.

We have to keep praying and keep sowing the seeds of His Truth and Love.

Sam:

The example you gave is a good example, actually, of how the Bible can be twisted when you show up to read it with an agenda. You said, "Jesus' response simply would be something to the effect of "for YOU Saducees, or maybe for those without priesthood power like the pharisees or saducees, there will be no marriage in heaven"... simple interpretation."

No. Not a simple interpretation. The most "simple" interpretation is that people are NOT married in heaven. In Matthew, Jesus says, "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage". Who are "they"? In Mark's gospel, Jesus says, "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage". So, it is the dead who rise who will not be married. And, Luke records Jesus saying, "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage".

It is clear here that NO ONE will be married in heaven. Your "simple interpretation" fails because both Luke and Mark clarify that Jesus was referring to righteous people who are going to heaven.

I have said this previously, but it is worth repeating. Almost every Old Testament book talks about false gods (idols) and false prophets. All but one New Testament book (Philemon) mentions false teachers, false prophets and false teachings. Do you think maybe God wants me to look out for false teachers and false prophets? Your idea that we should tolerate the teachings of anyone who says they are a "Christian" is not Biblical. Now, THAT is a simple interpretation.

I find it interesting that of all the blogs and message boards concerning the LDS Church- ALL OF THEM deteriorate into two subjects- whether Mormons are Christians, and whether Mormonism is correct or not. I find it very UNCHRISTIAN of anyone in this board to bombard anyone else's beliefs so. Every scripture any evangelical will quote is simply based upon the interpretation that they've been handed their whole life, which interpretation is based only upon SEEKING scriptures and interpretations that will support their own conclusions- scriptures such as that about marriage, the nature of God, "adding' additional scriptures- all of them are misunderstood. The scriptures on marriage were Jesus' response to Saducees- who do not believe in the Resurrection- upon which question about such a topic to the Savior would become ABSURD, which Jesus' response simply would be something to the effect of "for YOU Saducees, or maybe for those without priesthood power like the pharisees or saducees, there will be no marriage in heaven"... simple interpretation.
In addition, until any single Christian sect has the organization or manpower or CHARITY that the LDS church has exhibited throughout its entire history (ESPECIALLY in the past few years with Katrina and the Tsunami) NO Christian sect has the right to call LDS people unChristian or hell bound or even that they are wrong, because Mormons do more for this world than Evangelicals or any other sect have done. PERIOD.

I find it interesting that of all the blogs and message boards concerning the LDS Church- ALL OF THEM deteriorate into two subjects- whether Mormons are Christians, and whether Mormonism is correct or not. I find it very UNCHRISTIAN of anyone in this board to bombard anyone else's beliefs so. Every scripture any evangelical will quote is simply based upon the interpretation that they've been handed their whole life, which interpretation is based only upon SEEKING scriptures and interpretations that will support their own conclusions- scriptures such as that about marriage, the nature of God, "adding' additional scriptures- all of them are misunderstood. The scriptures on marriage were Jesus' response to Saducees- who do not believe in the Resurrection- upon which question about such a topic to the Savior would become ABSURD, which Jesus' response simply would be something to the effect of "for YOU Saducees, or maybe for those without priesthood power like the pharisees or saducees, there will be no marriage in heaven"... simple interpretation.
In addition, until any single Christian sect has the organization or manpower or CHARITY that the LDS church has exhibited throughout its entire history (ESPECIALLY in the past few years with Katrina and the Tsunami) NO Christian sect has the right to call LDS people unChristian or hell bound or even that they are wrong, because Mormons do more for this world than Evangelicals or any other sect have done. PERIOD.

Arizonan: How do the Mormon (LDS) treat their Women? In California they are seen as main stream except to the born again Religious Right? My LDS neighbors are kind, generous friendly christian people. The women are extended every right. Steve

For Josh:

I hope that I am not mistaken in sensing that you are an earnest young (?) man or woman who really wants to give a sincere testimony of faith.

But that is not well reflected in the words of your post. They exhibit nothing more than a robotic replay of a talking-points memo put out by the church to guide and shape the words of the faithful. Your post contains the same vocabulary, phraseology, and content seen with almost complete predictability in the typical Mormon 'testimony'.

1. Don't mention 'growth' - it has nothing to do with spirituality, and (see posts far below) growth in the Mormon church has been falling for over 15 years. The LDS church is very close to being a no-growth institution - but so what? What does that have to do with your personal faith?

2. Avoid references to "true", "truth", etc. Every engaged member of every faith on the planet feels the same - don't bore your audience with the obvious.

3. Strictly avoid judgmental comparisons between your church and others. If your personal faith requires the denigration of someone else's, then you've got some serious thinking to do.

4. Avoid the conceit that chastity, honesty, marital fidelity, integrity, etc were invented by the LDS faith or are exclusive to it.

5. Skip the "foundations of sand" analogy you picked up in Sunday school (chuckle).

Josh:

come back and post a _real_ testimony - tell us in your own words how _you_ think and feel about your faith and how it has helped in _your_ life. That's what authentic testimony is all about. Talking points are something altogether different, and they do not inspire confidence in the faith or the faithful.

John M,

That was beautiful brother. I feel so much more special knowing that God gave me the FREE gift of life than having to earn it, because God knows that there is no way I could ever earn that FREE gift. Your last post was inspirational to me even though I know it might not reach in that way to a member of the LDS. Thank you so much for that. Sometimes I forget just how much God loves me and words like that reinsure that there is no greater love than the love that comes from our Heavenly Father.

I pray for you LDS, that you will come to know God through His Word. His Word is infallible in all ways. He told us specifically what He wants from us. Just faith in Him. If you truly believe in pre-existence, then why does the Bible say otherwise? Those are God's Words! He wants you to follow Him. It really hurts me to know that you would rather believe in what man has told you than to believe in God's Word. I'll continue to pray for you.

God bless

PARKER has just provided us with the definitive difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.

LDS believe we all used to live with God in heaven. He sent us to earth because He loves us so much and wants us to grow and mature. We did nothing wrong in our previous existence. Sending us down here was for our own good. In fact, we supposedly agreed to come down to earth. So, our goal here on earth is to mature and be perfected so that we can return to be with Him again. Now, if that is the case, our focus is on working our way back to Him. Because we have already been with Him, we must return better than we ever were. Otherwise, what's the point in going through this life? So, to LDS, the purpose of life seems to be to prove yourself worthy of returning to heaven, and to return a much better person than before.

The Biblical perspective is quite different. God created us to have fellowship with Him in a perfect place He created for us here on earth. He created us to show us His love. But, we sinned, each of us, by turning away from Him. Instead of choosing to spend life with Him, we have all chosen to spend our lives on our own selfish wants. Rather than make life be about glorifying Him, we have chosen to make life be about satisfying ourselves. In place of seeking His righteousness, we have substituted seeking our own sinful desires. We have rebelled against God and His plan, and the penalty for that rebellion is an eternity away from Him in hell.

The good news is that God still loves us so much that He came down from heaven as a man to pay the death penalty for our sin HIMSELF, so that we could still have the opportunity to have the fellowship with Him that He always wanted us to have.

This critical difference in perspective leads to many gaps between LDS theology and evangelical theology.

First, LDS members are focused on keeping laws, commandments and church ordinances because they are on a mission to work themselves to holiness, or even godhood. In contrast, Christians realize that they have no works that can please God; we understand that what He wants is US.

That’s a wrinkle most Mormons don’t catch. It is actually easier to follow a list of religious rules, no matter how long or complicated, than to give up everything to follow Jesus. He doesn’t just want part of me; He wants ALL OF ME. That is a much greater sacrifice, by far. Christians realize that the old sinful self is useless to God; we must die to ourselves and be born again in His likeness. This is a spiritual conversion wrought by the Spirit of God; all I do is submit to Him.

That leads to another doctrinal difference. The works I do are not actually my works. As an evangelical Christian, I understand that it is God who works in me to make me want to do His will, since He now lives in me. And, it is God who actually accomplishes His will through me; again, I just submit myself and my body to Him. It seems that LDS think they are doing His work themselves. If it were God doing the work, why would He send us to earth to become holy and worthy? What would be the purpose of sending us to this ‘training ground’ if He is going to do all the work?

This issue leads to different attitudes. If we think we are here to work our way to a greater state, I would imagine that might generate some pride. If, on the other hand, I know God is not interested in my works, but that He wants to provide great works through me, I will be humble and thankful. I will realize that it is ONLY by His grace and His mercy that I am saved and that I am able to do His will.

The discussion of faith and works fits in here, as well. “Faith” in the Greek means more than it does in English. It means that I TRUST Jesus. I trust than He CAN save me and that He WANTS to save me and that He WILL save me. I am entrusting my life over to Him. In doing so, I am turning away from all other options. I am putting all my spiritual eggs in His basket. I am relying on Him completely. So, “believing in Jesus” means totally committing my life to Him. I die to myself and I live for Him.

If LDS believe they did nothing wrong in their previous spirit life, and that they are here to learn and mature and become more like God, they will not have the same heart as a repentant sinner who was rescued from death and hell. Evangelical Christians, by contrast, know that all of their problems arise from sin. This life is not a proving ground or a learning experience. It is a twisted, dark shadow of what God originally desired for me. I ruined it. But, He rescued me. As a result, I begin to hate my old nature and my sin. I am forever thankful that Jesus saved me, and I rely on Him to complete the work. You see, there is a difference between “I’m a spirit here on earth to learn great things” and “I am a hopeless sinner who was rescued and brought back from the dead”. I praise the Lord daily for that miracle!

In summary, I am sinful and on my way to hell, because I have turned away from the Lord. There was no way I could earn a second chance, but Jesus died for me to give me that option. If I ask Him to save me and die to myself and let Him create a new me, He will do it by His Grace and Mercy. As a result, I now have the personal relationship with Him that He always intended for me. He comes to dwell in me and work in me as a witness to those around me. And, He is already preparing an eternal place for me, with Him.

Yes, people are suspicious of the church. And yes, it is entering the mainstream in a way. It is growing rapidly and its members are found throughout the states. But it is not entering the mainstream in a way. There are absolutes in the doctrine of the church. So many in this world seem to have built there houses upon the sand as it were, rather than the rock. Values such as chastity, honesty, fidelity in marriage, integrity and obedience are some of the bedrock values of the LDS church. Some churches don't seem to care anymore. They seem to say that its ok to sin a little here and a little there, as long as you believe. There teachings have a truth, specifically that we should believe in Christ, but taking sin lightly and making excuses for it is the sand I speak of. So if the mainstream churches in this nation still have values such as integrity, and those others I listed above, then I commend them and thank them. If they still teach to follow Christs example and to strive to obey his commandments and teachings, and to speadily repent when in err, relying upon his mercy, then perhaps the LDS church is entering the mainstream. But if the mainstream is no longer teaching these things, then I would have to say, the church will probably never be considered mainstream. It will always seem peculiar to the "mainstream", and that is ok I guess.

Another area that seems to distinguish Mormonism from those who classify themselves as "mainstream" is a belief in the pre-mortal life of mankind as spirits who lived in the presence of God. I can imagine the following conversation among some of the spirits there before coming to earth and having our memory "start over" in this life as babies:

"I wonder what it will be like on earth. How will we know what choices to make without Father being right there to guide us? It sounds very hard. We've seen already how many were drawn over to follow Satan through his persuasiveness. The idea of learning to discern the truth through spiritual promptings and the teachings of prophet-leaders (mere mortals) seems so uncertain."

"That's true, but think of how much we'll yearn for the truths we have been taught here up until now, so that when we do find them again on earth it will make sense to us the more we learn."

"I hope so. I hope my spirit will be humble and willing to listen, and can distinguish the teachings that are man-made from the teachings that help us really reach our potential. I'm so glad we'll have the example and the love of our Savior and the spiritual promptings of the Holy Ghost."

"We'll have so much to learn! It's going to be a fascinating growth experience on earth!"

I just read one of my posts from awhile ago and found error in what I said. I was talking about animal sacrifice in the OT and mentioned how they recieved salvation through that act. I was completely wrong and am sorry for that mistake. I have no idea where I got that and would just like to correct myself on that matter. I think maybe I lost myself on that point and just blew it! Sorry about that error. Have a great day.

God bless

Parker:

I don't think any of the reasons you listed would keep people from accepting the LDS religion. People are not generally aware of the things you mentioned.

What would keep me away would be the secrecy. I can't tell you how many LDS have told me, on this thread and in person, that you have to prove yourself worthy in order to learn what the church teaches. And, many LDS still do not know everything the organization teaches. I would also have an issue with not being able to question the leadership and having to put my faith in men.

This is in sharp contrast to my non-denominational Christian church. Anyone is welcome to come any time. You don't have to be "worthy"; not of us are! And, the first time you come, you will hear the ENTIRE gospel. It's very simple, and there is nothing we hold back. Lastly, our leader is Jesus. The Bible is the ultimate source of our teachings. Our pastor welcomes us to challenge or correct him if he ever teaches anything contrary to God's word.

I doubt if Mormonism will ever be considered "mainstream" (whatever that is), since Mormonism teaches people that each of them has unlimited possibilities and a lot of people feel threatened by that perspective. (They don't want to believe that for themselves or the people around them. Maybe they think it will give them too high of a reach in life.) Other people feel threatened by the pro-family perspective, for whatever reason. Some probably feel threatened by the fact that Mormonism has the largest women's organization in the world, yet it is service oriented rather than promoting the women's movement agenda. Most people don't want to be reminded that there is more to life than what they already have. This is consistent with human nature, so it shouldn't surprise anyone.

No way Mormons are accepted. Even in the west (Utah, Arizona) where most of them live, they are still seen as a cult by catholics and other protestants.

Not that I'm a feminist, but they way they treat women is abominable. All the biblical rhetoric above is just nonsense and ignores the reality of how badly they deny opportunities to women and socially pressure them to marry and conceive children as soon as possible after high school.

This forum is basically a chance to try to convert people to Mormonism, which is what Mormos try to do whenever they meet people. Anybody who has been around Mormons for any length of time knows how useless it is to talk about religion with them.

Following is in fun:
A man is at the pearly gates, talking with Peter.
"Welcome."
"Thanks. Where is everybody?"
"Oh--in different places. Where would you like to go?"
"I'm looking forward to being married to Christ."
"Oh?"
"By the way, what does that mean, really?"
"Umm--you get to decide what it means."
"What? I thought it meant something like being an angel in glory with endless peace."
"Oh--you want to go with the angels?"
"Absolutely."
"OK--head thataway."
(On the way, he sees someone very familiar to him. "Honey, it's so good to see you. Why are you sitting there?"
"I'm trying to decide whether to be an angel forever or to go on having the joys of motherhood. Peter says it's my choice."
"What? That's a no-brainer, isn't it? Doesn't being an angel sound like a lot more fun?"
"I dunno. Sounds maybe kind of boring being an angel. What do they do? I quite liked motherhood. Oh, I know it was a challenge, but it was worth the challenge of it, and I felt a lot of joy.")
"Bye, honey. 'Love ya tons."

I just quoted from the KJV. So what's the problem then? I am not anti-mormon, I'm anti-false doctrine. I have no problem with you personally. I think you probably are a wonderful human being. But I do have a problem with people that claim to believe in the Bible and then say things to contradict it. Hence the 'marriage in heaven' thing. If you told me that you believe in Leprechauns and that you believe in the Bible, I would want biblical proof! But there aren't any leprechauns in the Bible and there is no marriage in heaven either...and why....BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO. Sorry if the Bible offends you. All I am doing is correcting you like 2 Tim 3:16 says I should do. If I have been found erroneous, let me know. I will accept my error and ask for forgiveness. Will you do the same with this marriage in heaven situation?

God bless

Joseph Nasu, do yourself a favor and stop listening to all the anti-Mormon rants, and at least learn what Bible Mormons read. Your talk about the "Mormon Bible" simply shows your own lack of understanding: Our Bible is the King James Bible, which many other Christians believe in.

Lynn W,

Matt 22:29-30

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Sorry, the Bible says no marriage in heaven. At least not to our earthly spouses. But it does say we will be married to Christ in heaven in Rev 19. We are His bridegroom when we enter into heaven. But no we are not married to our earthly spouses in heaven and therefore we also cannot create little spirit babies as you may believe as well. Hope you found this information enlightening.

God bless

JD, I am so sorry you had such a bad experience with living in SLC, with Mormon neighbors. People are people, good and bad, or not so good, but it isn't fair to brand all Mormons bad because of the actions of a few who were not being good examples of the gospel in action.

As for what you were told: they were wrong, plain and simple. We do not believe that anyone will go to hell because they do not keep the strict Sabbath standards we have been told we should keep. We also don't believe that those who are dead, in the spirit world, will never go to heaven unless they are made Mormon. In the first place, we believe there are different levels (kingdoms) in heaven. Jesus did say "In my Father's house, there are many mansions." We believe that, literally, He was speaking of the different kingdoms of glory. A person, such as your grandmother, who was a devout Christian, and lived according to the gospel truth she knew, will certainly go to heaven. And we don't force any one to become Latter-day Saints, even those in the spirit world, have the right to choose. We do the temple work, but they have the right to choose to accept the work, or not, with no condemnation. The purpose of the temple work is to gather the records of our own ancestors, and do the sealing work that will bind them together as families forever, because we believe that marriage can continue beyond "til death do you part" and that families can last through all eternity. We believe that when a person dies, they are given the opportunity of hearing the wonderful message of the full gospel, from elders who have gone to the spirit world, and that they have a right to decide for themselves if they believe it or not. Meanwhile, we who are still in the flesh on earth, do the ordinances for them, which they cannot do while in spirit form.

I'm just very sorry that a few misinformed Latter-day Saints, and a few who were as intolerant toward you as I've found some people of other religions to be toward me, gave you the wrong idea about our religion, which is so beautiful, and has so many wonderful blessings to offer.

I have one question that I think we need to address that quite possibly could be the reason for our misunderstanding between works and faith.

What kind of works do you feel are necessary for salvation? Is it the traditional works of your church, such as temple rituals that are necessary, or simply giving to the poor, or both?

By the way, I found a great article that discusses works and faith.

http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/CarterJ01.html

This article goes into detail about the seemingly contradicting aspects of Paul and James. Come to find out, they compliment each other. Also, this article relates the OT to works and faith as well, so we can see a WHOLE Biblical picture of this subject, not just a few verses pulled out to justify our beliefs. Please read it. Not only do I think you can learn a lot from it, but I did as well.

God bless

Les,

I posted below about faith and works already, but I would like to discuss this "progression to godhood" theory.

You quoted Acts 17:28

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring

This verse in no way indicates us as "spirit" children like you say. We are simply His offspring, or his children. I know you believe in pre-existence which can justify this claim since you believe that we existed with God before our time here on earth. But the Bible clearly indicates that we become flesh first, then spirit.

1 Cor 15:46

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This is what mormons say:

“We were first begotten as spirit babies in heaven and then born naturally on earth” (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218).

Is this not the clearest contradiction possible? Please explain this one to me. Are you gonna blame this on the Bible not being reliable like Jim does?

Back to 'progression to godhood.' I would like to know how you can take Ps 82:6 and apply that to your reasoning for 'godhood' but ignore all the many passages that say that there is only ONE God? God says that He is the only God several times over and over again, and makes a point to mention that there was no God before Him and none shall come after Him. So I will explain to you how you took Ps 82:6 out of context and applied it to your beliefs. First off why did God call Satan "the god of this age" in 2 Cor 4? Is Satan God? No way! So what does the real God mean? Obviously that satan is worshipped by man over Him (the real God) and therefore is being portrayed as a god, or a god to someone at least. So what about verse 7.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes

Even though we are entrusted with God's Word we will die like mere men. Like the men with authority of that day who this verse was directed towards, they are "gods" to some, but will die like mere men. Jesus quoted this scripture in John 10 to show how different he is compared to "MERE MEN".

1 Cor 8:5-6

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Once again I would like an LDS explanation on why the early apostles said there is only ONE God, but you would have them believe that they could become 'gods'?? You must remember the word "god" can mean that anyone can call anything "god". If I wanted to worship a stapler, then that would be my "god". But I know there is but ONE God and that would be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So, I really need to know how any logical mind can agree with this "progression to godhood" doctrine when there are clear contradictions stating otherwise. I myself struggles with what seemed to be contradictions in the Bible when I first starting seeking God. But with further examination and backing up scripture with scripture, you find the right answers. Remember we must "seek" to find God and His truth. Do not accept the seemingly contradictions, but pursue the truth in its meaning. I hear many of the LDS faith claim that you take the Bible more literally than we do. So that must mean that God is a rock. Ps 18:2. Yes, an actual stone that sits in my backyard that I should worship. Not really folks. Also, Jesus spoke in parables. Should those be taken literally? If so, then why aren't people turning into olive branches, pieces of fruit, etc.. And is heaven really an actual mustard seed? Because I can't see how anyone could fit in there. It's quite easy to know what should be taken literal and what should be taken as metaphoric. It's also easy to take things out of context and make it your own meaning as well. These things you need to be careful of. Please, back up scripture with scripture. And do not ignore the scripture that can contradict your beliefs but address them. Then when all scripture ties in together perfectly, you will know God's true meaning. Its' not that difficult. Just a little study and time away from those bishops who tell you lies.

So I beg of you, please explain these obvious contradictions. Someone on here told me that I speak on here only because I want someone to say that I'm right. That is far from the truth. I want you to be right. But you can't be unless you give up the false docrines of the LDS. There are OBVIOUS contradictions that should be sufficient enough for you to question the validity of the LDS. I'll pray for you and pray for you salvation. The salvation that comes through Christ alone, not through any church organization created by man, but the One True Church of the body of Christ.

God bless

Wow, where do I begin?? I think I'll start with Jim.

Jim you claim the Bible is not reliable and either is the BOM. For it has been re-written several times over by man and therefore can not be trusted. So why would you believe in it then? I couldn't believe in the Bible if I knew it wasn't reliable or that the words were somehow construed. This is why I don't believe in the BOM, because there were over 4000 changes to the original, and not just minor changes, but actual meaning changes. I would hope you do not find this statement too offensive, but I must say; Anyone who calles themselves a Christian and claims the Bible is not reliable is quite the heretic. Let's talk history.

I agree with you about catholicism. I compare catholicism with LDS and find similiar teachings. Faith and works bring salvation, you both claim to be the only true church, and you both are wrong. The Bible proves you wrong. But back to history for a minute. You say the catholic church "voted" to see which writings to include in the Bible. I do believe that it was a little more complicated than that. First of all their is scriptural proof that Peter had parts of the NT already.

2 Pet 3:15-16

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So Peter recognizes ALL of Paul's epistles. "The other scriptures" by that time (66 A.D) would have been included already. The "scriptures" were so common among the Christians at an early time that they were accpeted as divinely inspired before any councilary decisions. Let me quote historian W.H.C. Frend,

"The Gospels and epistles were circulating in Asia, Syria, and Alexandria, and being read and discussed in the Christian synagogues there by about 100. In Polycarp's short letter there is an astonishing amount of direct and indirect quotation from the NT: Matthew, Luke, and John, Acts, the letters to the Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Romans, the Pastorals, 1 Peter particularly, and 1 and 2 John are all used...
The Christian Scriptures were quoted so familiarly as to suggest that they had been in regular use a long time."

This is proof that Christians knew what scriptures were 'canon' and what were not. You need to understand that no council decided which books to put into the Bible. The Synod of Antioch in a.d 266, denounced the doctrine of Paul of Samosata as "foreign to the ecclesiastical canon." The coucil of Nicea refers to the 'canon'; and the Council of Laodicea in 363 exhorted that "only the 'canonized' books of both the OT and the NT be read in the church." Yet non of those councils deemed it necessary to list the canonized books, indicating that they were already well-known and accepted by the common consent of Christians indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Not until the Third Council of Carthage in 397 do we have the first conciliar decision on the canon. That is rather late if without it Christians didn't know what books were in the NT and therefore couldn't use them. The only book different that Catholics have is the Apogrypha which was canonized later by catholics but never accepted among protestants. And I can show you why if you would like. There are contradictions to the Bible in the Apogrypha just like the BOM. So with historical evidence like this, I can say with confidence that the the WHOLE Bible is reliable and never changed by man. Would God who's Word is perfect and pure allow such a thing? Not my God, but maybe your god.

Back to the works and faith issue. I do believe that this is an important issue because if we were to believe that our works can save us, then Jesus' death was meaningless.

Isaiah 64:6

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So our "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" huh? I guess even if I do good, I could never be righteous, as God tells us. So I will rely on Christ for my only means of salvation. So we must rely on grace alone as Paul explains;

Romans 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So as we know it is grace that we are saved. And Paul preaches that grace and works are two seperate things. Keep in mind too that every apostle that spoke of being saved said that we are already saved, as in the moment of confession and faith in Christ, it is not that we will be saved in the future. We are saved and therefore a part of the body of Christ, which by the way is the ONLY TRUE (GET IT, ONLY TRUE) church. If we say that our works can grant us salvation then our salvation is a future event, not in the way as described by the apostles. And so knowing that I am saved, right now, I will rejoice and do good works to glorify the One who saved me. I do good works for God, not for myself so that I can recieve salvation. Christ did the work for us so that all we had to do is have faith to be saved. I mean, do you really think so highly of yourself that you think your measly little actions in life can save you? Not so. I hold God to a higher standard in admitting that no matter how great or how much of good works I do, it can never amount to the works Christ did for me on the cross. Thinking our works can save us reduces Christ's works to be as equivolent as ours. Can you save the world? I didn't think so.

I do have to run. I intend to respond to more later. I really enjoy this discussion because I love to talk about God. He makes me happy. I know He is using me right now to help those who are blinded by a false teaching. I truly believe that and am sorry if it offensive. I love you all and hope to bring you into the light which is Christ.

God bless

David, John m., and Ray

I appreciate all your intelligent and civil response to my post, it’s refreshing in today’s world. And I hope I don’t come off as rude—I’m just trying to be to the point.

David,
the old testament people were not saved by the law or by animal sacrifice. Look at

Hebrews 10: 1&4
1 FOR the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. […]
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The law of Moses was a shadow of what was to come, and the sacrificing of animals never atoned for a single sin; it represented the sacrifice of the lamb of God, and it was the way God gave the Israelites the to retroactively use Christ’s atonement in their lives.

I never said that we are saved by our works or that in any way we are trying to equally our selves with God by our works. What I was saying was what I first quoted from the Book Of Mormon: “[…]for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” So we try are hardest to do Gods will and after all we can do (which is nothing compared to the glory of God) we are saved because of our faith in Jesus Christ through his Grace.
And this idea is what I was saying was in Romans 3: .” But “[…]all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)” so we must be “[…]justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).” But that does not mean that we do not need the works of the law: “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law(Romans 3: 31).
If you’re saying that Christ atonement make it so we don’t have to follow the law anymore or in other words it makes void the law through faith, then you’re directly contradicting the last verse of Romans 3, and you said that “ [Romans] is the best book that describes the law and works and salvation through faith alone.

You asked me “Why did God send His Son to die for our sins?”

God sent his Son to save us from our sins, not in our sins. Like we both quoted before “[…] all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)” so if Christ didn’t come down to atone for our sins every soul would have been lost, but are faith in his to receive grace doesn’t not void the works of the law, it establishes the law by makes up for our many shore comings. Go back and read what I quoted in James 2:17-23:
“17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (read the rest in my last post)

So faith is what saves us, but faith is dead without our works to show that we are trying to do all we can.

John m.,

No where in the sermon on the Mont dose Jesus say any about his commandments being optional for salvation, nor does he say it’s a description of the true believer. It is the fulfillment of the Law of Moses. In The Sermon on the Mount Jesus said:

Matt. 5:17-20

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

These are commandments—not suggestions or descriptions. Repeatedly in these chapters Jesus compares the old law to the new law. He says “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time” then he says part of the law of Moses. Then he says “But I say unto you” then he says part of the fulfilled law, or the higher law. And the fulfilled laws are not presented as optional, no quite the opposite, they’re more demanding then the Law of Moses. And to sum it up he says:
1. Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
He didn’t say if you come to know me you’ll end up perfect. No, he say be ye perfect, and by doing his will we come to know him and his doctrine, like john recounts Jesus saying:

1. John 7: 17
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
And as for you saying I took Matt. 7: 21 out of context. To know them by their fruits means that you can see the kind of person they are by the things they do: fruit is a product. So in the same chapter when Christ says:

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

He is saying that if you don’t bring forth good fruits or good works you will be cast into the fire. And that is the set-up for verse 21:

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So as we see from these verses praising Christ while not bring forth good fruit or not doing the will of the father will keep you out of heaven and you will be cast in to the fire—and like I said many times—we only need to do our best and then the atonement of Christ will do the rest, so faith and works work together like it says in James 2:17-23( which all of you chose to ignore.)
And as for your saying it’s the false prophets saying Lord, Lord. I really don’t want to sound rude, but that is more then a bit of a stretch: the verse says “not every one” it doesn’t say not every false prophet. It is very clear what Christ is saying hear, you don’t need to do acrobatics to understand it.

Ray,
I’m not trying to orchestrate God’s free will, I’m trying my hardest to submit to God’s will for me and relying on Christ’s atonement for the all my short coming—which are many.

The young rich man clearly asked what to do to receive eternal life, then Jesus answered with a list of commandment and when the young man passed that test Jesus called on him to give all and follow him or do as he does. No where in any of those verses is their anything about the evidence of salvation, the young man wasn’t that far yet—he asked “what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?(matt 19:15)”

Please all of you, let go of what you think you know and humbly ask God yourself what is necessary for salvation-

James 1: 5-6
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
This is how I gained my understanding of the Bible, and there is no point of doctrine that I know to be true, unless it was testified to me by the Holy Ghost—as was this point of doctrine about faith and works.

Now I want to say a little something about what David and Ray said about members of the LDS church trying to achieve Godhood.
We believe that our spirits are literal children of Heavenly father (Acts 17: 28). And as it says in the Old Testament:
Ps. 82: 6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
And in the New Testament Jesus backs up this scripture by quoting from it:
John 10: 34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
So we are the children of God in a very real sense, so that in a way we—like Christ said—we are gods even now, and this is true for he said that scripture cannot be broken.
We are children of God or as LDS leaders have put it “gods in embryo.” Roman 8:16-18 lays out what is in store for the children of God:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
It says it all right here. We are heirs, which means we are the children who receive all the father has. And joint-heirs with Christ and we will be glorified with him, if we will suffer with him now. And this suffering involves working at it or trying our hardest and relying on Christ for the rest. And as it says in verse 18 the little suffering we suffer now can not compare to the glory that will be given us.
This is what the LDS church teaches. That we are the children of God and heirs to all he has, but we can’t make it without Christ, so we are joint-heirs with him, and we will receive glory far beyond what we suffer now. And this does not take away from God—it glorifies him if his children are glorified. Just as a good earthly father if glorified by a successful son who becomes himself a good father.
Now you are probably thinking that this is a stretch, and that’s debatable, but we don’t get this doctrine solely from the Bible because , as I’m sure you know we have other holy writ (which you don’t accept of course but that’s not my point) that elaborates on this in much more detail. My point in quoting these scriptures is to show you that this doctrine is mentioned in the Bible, and it’s not as crazy as you might think it is because if you take the Bible literally you will come to a similar conclusion—as did the Christian theologian C. S. Lewis, who was not LDS, and he said:
The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said. (Lewis, Mere Christianity, 174-75)
For a more recent example of the doctrine of deification in modern, non-LDS Christianity, see M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), 269-70: "For no matter how much we may like to pussyfoot around it, all of us who postulate a loving God and really think about it eventually come to a single terrifying idea: God wants us to become Himself (or Herself or Itself). We are growing toward godhood."

I have a few comments. First, please, people, stop equating Jeffs and the "Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no connection! True Latter-day Saints do not practice polygamy, and haven't since the end of the 19th century. In fact, practicing polygamy is grounds for ex-communication, and if we even show any sympathy or affiliation for those who do, we cannot get a temple recommend. That's how important this issue is. Second, I resent my church being seen as hateful toward immigrants, Mexicans, blacks, and people of other faiths. This just is not true! My ward (local congregation)has black people, and Mexicans, good brothers and sisters who have the same gospel and the same rights as the rest of us. In fact, one of our black brothers is a returned missionary. One of our returned missionaries is married to a Hispanic girl he met on his mission. We have a bi-lingual worship service, and auxilliary classes. A Spanish group has formed with priesthood, Relief Society, and Sunday school, and if we continue to increase in our Hispanic membership as we have been, we will soon have a Spanish branch. And, if anyone here on this forum has even tried to understand what we are all about, you should know by now that we do not hate people of other faiths. Quite the contrary, we believe there is truth and goodness in all religions. All we want to do is show you that there is more truth to be learned and enjoyed than you currently have.

What we do hate, or atleast I hate it, is the intolerance, mockery, and disrespect others have for what we believe, and for what we hold dear and sacred. I also hate it when somebody has the audacity to tell me, as so often happens, that I don't really believe what I say I believe, because some preacher, or some so-called authority, some anti-Mormon book, or web site, or some angry ex-Mormon told them so. I know better than you, what I believe and why. I've done my homework, I've studied and prayed about it, and the Spirit has witnessed unto me the truth. How dare you tell me that I'm lying about what I believe, or don't really know what I believe, or that I've been deceived...just because your pastor, or some other source, says so. I may not agree with some of you, and in fact I don't agree, but I'm certainly not going to say you are lying about what you, as individuals, say you believe, or that you don't understand your own beliefs.

Judging by what I've heard on this forum and others like it, I don't think the LDS Church is in any danger of becoming mainstream, or of being accepted by mainstream Christians. That's fine with me. I don't want to be seen as just another Protestant. It's the unique values and beliefs of Mormonism that sets us apart from the world, and it's our temple ordinances and covenants that gives hope to all, the living and the dead, and condemns no one to hell just because he didn't understand the gospel or hear about Jesus before he died. And, it's our Restored Gospel, which was brought back through the obedience and enduring faithfulness of Joseph Smith, that is here to prepare the way for the return of Jesus Christ, and the Millennium.

What more can I say?

I have a few comments. First, please, people, stop equating Jeffs and the "Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no connection! True Latter-day Saints do not practice polygamy, and haven't since the end of the 19th century. In fact, practicing polygamy is grounds for ex-communication, and if we even show any sympathy or affiliation for those who do, we cannot get a temple recommend. That's how important this issue is. Second, I resent my church being seen as hateful toward immigrants, Mexicans, blacks, and people of other faiths. This just is not true! My ward (local congregation)has black people, and Mexicans, good brothers and sisters who have the same gospel and the same rights as the rest of us. In fact, one of our black brothers is a returned missionary. One of our returned missionaries is married to a Hispanic girl he met on his mission. We have a bi-lingual worship service, and auxilliary classes. A Spanish group has formed with priesthood, Relief Society, and Sunday school, and if we continue to increase in our Hispanic membership as we have been, we will soon have a Spanish branch. And, if anyone here on this forum has even tried to understand what we are all about, you should know by now that we do not hate people of other faiths. Quite the contrary, we believe there is truth and goodness in all religions. All we want to do is show you that there is more truth to be learned and enjoyed than you currently have.

What we do hate, or atleast I hate it, is the intolerance, mockery, and disrespect others have for what we believe, and for what we hold dear and sacred. I also hate it when somebody has the audacity to tell me, as so often happens, that I don't really believe what I say I believe, because some preacher, or some so-called authority, some anti-Mormon book, or web site, or some angry ex-Mormon told them so. I know better than you, what I believe and why. I've done my homework, I've studied and prayed about it, and the Spirit has witnessed unto me the truth. How dare you tell me that I'm lying about what I believe, or don't really know what I believe, or that I've been deceived...just because your pastor, or some other source, says so. I may not agree with some of you, and in fact I don't agree, but I'm certainly not going to say you are lying about what you, as individuals, say you believe, or that you don't understand your own beliefs.

Judging by what I've heard on this forum and others like it, I don't think the LDS Church is in any danger of becoming mainstream, or of being accepted by mainstream Christians. That's fine with me. I don't want to be seen as just another Protestant. It's the unique values and beliefs of Mormonism that sets us apart from the world, and it's our temple ordinances and covenants that gives hope to all, the living and the dead, and condemns no one to hell just because he didn't understand the gospel or hear about Jesus before he died. And, it's our Restored Gospel, which was brought back through the obedience and enduring faithfulness of Joseph Smith, that is here to prepare the way for the return of Jesus Christ, and the Millennium.

What more can I say?

Hi, Jim:

You have made some historical errors.

The Council at Nicea did not vote on any books of the Bible. They voted on the Nicene Creed, and the vote was three-hundred-and-something to two. It was a formality to put down the heresy of the day.

There is no evidence that John wrote any books after Revelation. In fact, early church ‘fathers’ tell us he wrote Revelation after his gospel and three letters. Having said that, I would agree that the warning in Revelation relates only to that book, but there ARE other verses in the Bible that say the same thing.

The books of the Bible were not rewritten. We have very old manuscripts of some portions of the New Testament that predate Constantine and the Catholic Church. We have copies of every Old Testament book except Esther that date to 100 BC, also known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. We also have sermons and writings from early church ‘fathers’ from as early as 150 AD, well before Catholics came on the scene, wherein these teachers quote Scripture at length. When comparing all three of these ancient sources to our modern Bibles, we see no difference. The Bible has been preserved. There is absolutely no evidence of what you are saying. In fact, the evidence we have is against you.

Weston P writes:

'It has been tiring reading some of these comments. I don't think this is what the "On Faith" people were looking for. These arguments could go on like this forever, I'm sure. Conversion to a particular religion is a personal thing, and it can't be done by just logic alone. If it is done on logic alone, then it is not true conversion - it is just building your house on the sand. That is why you can't resolve the majority of these arguments by using logic pulled from the Bible or for that matter, the Book of Mormon.'

Logic, common-sense, our intellectual capabilities, etc, are all gifts of our Creator. Careless disregard of these faculties enables appalling pathologies like Jonestown, Waco, Heaven's Gate, etc, to occur, and enables scam artists like Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Benny Hinn, etc, to abuse and fleece their 'flock'.

If a particular sect doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the sensible solution most certainly is _not_ to adopt a "willing suspension of disbelief". That is the implicit advice so often given by the apologist, often with the caveat that to do otherwise is "prideful".

Sheer nonsense & fundamentally dangerous ...

Jim writes:

"It is interesting that you talk about False Prophets. Joseph was not a False Prophet. He was called of God. Infact he was called by God the Father and Jesus Christ. They both appeared to him. What you don't believe it?"

Well, Jim, you've hit the nail on the head: non-Mormons emphatically don't accept the credentials of Joseph Smith as a 'prophet', a 'man of God', a man with a "special relationship with the Creator", or any such thing; they find him quite to the contrary. Mormonism is plagued by a circumstance it cannot escape: a lengthy paper trail on Mr. Smith, much of it available on the Web, and none of it particularly laudible. As a man of ancient times, Moses escapes what Smith cannot: the historical record.

As a citizen of a free society, you are entitled to believe as you choose. But you need to confront a fundamental fact of life: the non-Mormon population of this planet (that would be, literally, over 99%) does not recognize the foundations of Mormonism as authentic. Further, the 20-year decline in Mormon conversion rates suggests that the citizens of Planet Earth are never going to be convinced otherwise. Further attempts at proselytizing will be pointless. Better to plow church resources into more of those shopping centers that seem so much in vogue nowadays.

David -

WRT Revelations 22:18-19...

The order of the Books of the New Testament does not reflect the chronological order in which they were written. The placement of the Book of Revelation at the end of the New Testament was a decision made when the canon was assembled and ratified. John did not issue his warning about adding or taking away with reference to the New Testament canon, and certainly not to the entire Bible. He was referring to his vision, and not to any other book.

A similar reference can be found in Deuteronomy 4:2-3, made by Moses. If applied with the same blind rigor, we would be eliminate all of the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament and their prophcies of the coming of a Messiah, and CHRIST himself would be an apostate.

Don't be as one blind, leading the blind. Think, man... THINK!

David -

WRT Revelations 22:18-19...

The order of the Books of the New Testament does not reflect the chronological order in which they were written. The placement of the Book of Revelation at the end of the New Testament was a decision made when the canon was assembled and ratified. John did not issue his warning about adding or taking away with reference to the New Testament canon, and certainly not to the entire Bible. He was referring to his vision, and not to any other book.

A similar reference can be found in Deuteronomy 4:2-3, made by Moses. If applied with the same blind rigor, we would be eliminate all of the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament and their prophcies of the coming of a Messiah, and CHRIST himself would be an apostate.

Don't be as one blind, leading the blind. Think, man... THINK!

David -

WRT Revelations 22:18-19...

The order of the Books of the New Testament does not reflect the chronological order in which they were written. The placement of the Book of Revelation at the end of the New Testament was a decision made when the canon was assembled and ratified. John did not issue his warning about adding or taking away with reference to the New Testament canon, and certainly not to the entire Bible. He was referring to his vision, and not to any other book.

A similar reference can be found in Deuteronomy 4:2-3, made by Moses. If applied with the same blind rigor, we would be eliminate all of the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament and their prophcies of the coming of a Messiah, and CHRIST himself would be an apostate.

Don't be as one blind, leading the blind. Think, man... THINK!

David -

WRT Revelations 22:18-19...

The order of the Books of the New Testament does not reflect the chronological order in which they were written. The placement of the Book of Revelation at the end of the New Testament was a decision made when the canon was assembled and ratified. John did not issue his warning about adding or taking away with reference to the New Testament canon, and certainly not to the entire Bible. He was referring to his vision, and not to any other book.

A similar reference can be found in Deuteronomy 4:2-3, made by Moses. If applied with the same blind rigor, we would be eliminate all of the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament and their prophcies of the coming of a Messiah, and CHRIST himself would be an apostate.

Don't be as one blind, leading the blind. Think, man... THINK!

David,

You Wrote

"Now the LDS has to require works only because that's the only way the progression to godhood can work. But we know this to be a false doctrine and one of the easiest to prove false as well. Any organization that uses works as a requirement gives them a great opportunity to use this doctrine to decieve many into other false doctrines, such as the LDS and Catholicisms "required" sacraments for salvation. This doctrine of faith with works was described by Marin Luther as the "doctine that any church stands or falls by". I believe that as well. Because once you command works from your followers, you can get them to do anything. That scares me."

I must correct you on the first sentence. We do not Believe that we are saved by works. If you have read my posts on this subject you will see that we believe it is by Faith we are Saved By Grace. The problem you are having understanding this is that you are not seeing that Faith and Works are the same thing. Faith is works and works are Faith. Faith is not a noun it is a verb. That is why we need the Grace of God because neither faith or works will save us. It is by his grace. And Jesus tells us who will Qualify for that Grace. You have mentioned John 3:16. I hope you have read a little further down the page to verses 18-22. It clearly tells us that it is our deeds he is going to use to determine whether or not we believe in him. Jesus said that Not Paul, Not James, Not Peter,

You have said the Bible is infallible because God would not permit it to be corrupted. Yes he would. He used men to write it. He gave those men the agency to choose what was going to be in it and what was not. If you believe that the Bible is the only words ever revealed to man from God you are very mistaken. Especially the New testament. When the New testament was compiled it was compiled by a church that had total control of everything thanks to Constantine. A counsel of men decided what was to be doctrine, what was to be in the Bible. Now I have never ever seen in scripture where God uses a councel to decide what his word will be. No quite the opposite. God used Prophets and Yes I believe the Apostles were Prophets also. He revealed his word to a man individually not a councel of men. Why did God allow men to have a councel to determine what his word would be. (the same reason men do evil things. All men have their agency to chose what they will or will not do. Agency or Freewill is a gift from God he will never take it from us. He will however make sure we suffer the consequences good or bad of our decisions.) So yes he allowed men to decide on what was going to be in the Bible. And because of Agency some of what was put in the Bible was corrupted. Why is the Gosple of Phillip not in the Bible? Because 2/3 of the men at the Councel of Nice decided not to put it in the New Testament. 2/3 of the councel is what determined what the trinity is. And Guess what ever since that councel those who did not agree with that doctrine were persecuted and put to death as heretics.

Today Christians are not putting other Christians to death for not believing the Centuries old man made doctrine of the trinity they instead claim they are not Christains and tell them they are not saved based on their own interpretations. Sorry I still believe God reveals his word the way he always has especially today when the world is the most turbulent it has been in it's entire history. That is through Prophets. The new testament does warn us against Prophets in the Last Days FALSE prophets. It dosen't say their won't be any Prophets. It does not say that their will be no more Revelation or No more scriptures. Sure you can use Revelation 22:18 to back up that claim. Conveinient that The Catholic Church at the Councel of Nice decided to make that the last book of the Bible. Scared the pants off anyone who might have otherwise to say. It gave the Church final word. The false prophets that the Bible reffers to are the Popes and Bishops and cardinals of the ancient Catholic church who were more concerned with taking power from Rome and after maintaining thier own power. The Inquisition the Crusades all of this done by the Church who decided what was to be written in the Bible of today.

According to the Belief that there can be no more scripture after the Book of Revelation John should have never written his gosple or first, second, or third epistle if he were to take the end of the revelation he was given to mean there is to be no more revelation. Those other 4 books would have been adding to that revelation since he wrote them many years after Revelations. Oh, but they are seperate books or letters so they are not part of the book of Revelation aren't they? Sometimes we need to use the Common Sense God gave us when reading Scripture and understand how the Bible came to be. Just as the Book of Mormon is not adding to the Book of Revelation. It is a seperate book of Scripture.

It is interesting that you talk about False Prophets. Joseph was not a False Prophet. He was called of God. Infact he was called by God the Father and Jesus Christ. They both appeared to him. What you don't believe it? He said it happened to him and he went to the Grave with that testamony. So here is something to consider. Did Moses see god and talk to him face to face. He says he did. Did it happen? The Bible says it did. Just as I believ Moses Did because I do believe the Bible is the Word of God I believe Joseph Smith saw God and I believe the Book Of Mormon is his word. By the way the Book of Mormon it self says that if there are errors in it they are due to man or the men involved in the translation. Why dosen't the bible say that? Don't answer that I will answer it for you. Because of this. The Catholic Church wants you to not be reminded that it was written and rewritten and rewritten by MEN. But I'm not Catholic you say. You may be right but you are still relying on doctrines and books they voted on to be the word of God. Sorry But Gods word cannot be voted on. Gods kingdom is not a democracy. All christian chruches today are stems of the Catholic Church. You may change the doctrine a little to adapt to your personal interpretations of scripture but all still cling to the doctrines and scripture that the Councel of Nice voted on. As a Catholic Bishop once said "you Mormons don't know what you have... Either Catholisism is true or Mormonism is true all others are in between since all others started as protest to Catholisism... Mormonism is the only one to have a claim that all things had to be restored..."

That is why God had to rereveal his word through one humble enough to ask which sect was true. That is why he had hundreds yeah even thousands of years earlier had a small group of people leave Jerusalem and record his dealings with them because he see's past present and future at the same time he knew that the bible would be mistranslated and altered and changed. He even revealed in the bible that it would happen. So he made sure that his word would be understood. That is why the ancient record of the Nephites was written. It is a companion to the Bible.

Those of us who have written on Faith and works have demonstrated that the Book of Mormon does bring clarity to Paul's words and James' words. The book of Mormon even has Christ's Words and he teaches the exact same gosple to the people on this contenant that he taught in Jerusalem. It even testifies that he was resurrected. I would encourage you to read 3 Nephi and see what Jesus taught them. But I digress because I know you will never do that. You want to save me. You can't only Jesus can and only Jesus did. Only Jesus can tell me if I am a Christian or not. I do not believe rather I know I have a relationship with Jesus. I know He is my Savior. I know he will judge me by my deeds because he said he would (again John 3:18-22.)

You keep trying to convince us that the bible is true and the word of God. Stop trying we already know it is true and is the word of God. But it is not the only word of God. God will give as many other books of scripture as he wants. He has never said he wouldn't So who is any man to say that he hasn't. Who is any church or man to decide by a vote what the word of God is or is not. Who is any man to judge another and know what is in his heart. Stop judging me. If you truly were reaching out to me in Love you would be a friend and not someone trying to get another to admit you are right. I will not tell you what you believe is wrong as regaurds to salvation because you are right. I will say God wants you to know more. God wants to to become like him if he didn't he would not have created you or me or anyone else. He wuold not have created this world or the universe. If God only created us to do with us as he pleases then he would be pretty selfish and would not have even bothered to create us at all.

We are saying open up your mind. Open up your eyes that you may see and open up your ears that you may hear open up your heart that you may feel and understand the word of God.

You believe what you believe because you believe the bible is only the word of God. David God has never said that bible is his only word man has. So the question is are you ready to find out if God has other words besides the Bible?

I believe what I believe because I know the Bible is not the only word of God. What i do know is this. All of Gods words will agree with each other. The things that you believe are contraditions in the Book of Mormon as compared to the Bible are not contradictions. They clarify and support what the Bible says. The Book of Mormon tells us we can believe the Bible.

LDS are not Mainstream and I pray never will be. We are to be a peculiar people. I know what I know becasue I have trusted in the Lord to reveal it to me.

Hi, Lynn:

I don't see any "anti-mormon" activity by Christians here. We are using the Bible to discuss the validity of LDS beliefs. Those beliefs are being expressed by LDS.

I am not visiting anti-mormon websites. I am using the Bible to shed light on the errors in LDS teachings.

I do not have anything outside the Bible that guides my belief system. My church has no creeds or doctrines or special prayers or rituals. We are strictly Biblical. And, I do not rely on men for my doctrines. I get my belief system directly from the Bible.

You say that if I read only the Bible, I would see that the LDS organization is the one true Church. Umm...NO.

I do read the Bible on my own, in the Spirit, and there is no way I could ever come to believe what you believe by reading only the Bible. And, if that were the case, that reading the Bible would lead me to Mormonism, then:
1. Why do we need the Book of Mormon?
2. Where did people who read the Bible go for 1800 years before the BOM was revealed?

As for tolerance and acceptance, Jesus was not tolerant. He was loving and caring, and He wanted all to come to Him, but he was neither tolerant nor accepting of false doctrine or false believers. Most books of the Old Testament mention false gods, idolatry and false prophets. All but one New Testament book address false teachers and false teachings. Why does God warn me so much about false belief systems if I am to tolerate and accept everyone who comes along and says they are Christians? No. God wants me to "test everything" against His Word and know who is a sheep and who is a wolf.

What I am doing here is defending my faith, the Bible and the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not here to attack anyone. I am sharing the truth of the Gospel.

I am just appalled, but, sadly, not surprised, at the ignorance and prejudice of the majority of the posters on this blog. Anti-Mormonism is alive and well. And it seems a lot of the vitriol is coming from posters who are promoting the anti-Mormon websites.

I do wonder why some of these posters can't or won't listen to the truth of Mormonism as posted by those of us who are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, rather than use the same old arguments that have been used for decades to discredit us. Why do people keep going to the same old sources, which, by the way were discredited a long time ago, and why do people insist on telling us what we believe, based on what our avowed enemies tell them, instead of going to the source and asking us true believers what we believe?

I have seen very little love or acceptance on this forum, and very little religious tolerance. I have seen some rational discussion, but the insistence that we throw out the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and go only by the Bible, does not lead to a true understanding of our religion.

If the truth be known, the evangelicals and other mainstream Christians do not go only by the Bible. They also go by the various creeds, and the Trinity Doctrines. Those creeds are not in the Bible. They are man-made philosophies that had nothing to do with the church that Jesus, and his Apostles, established. If they insist that we should go only by the Bible, then I suggest that they need to give up their Trinity Creeds, and go only by the Bible. If they did, they would see the truth: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the face of the earth. We are the only church with living apostles and prophets, led by revelation. We are the only church that offers hope to all, living or dead, and that doesn't condemn a person to hell because he didn't know or understand the gospel, or because he never even had a chance to hear about Jesus before he died. We are the only church that offers the hope that families can be together forever, even beyond this mortal life. Yet, all these things are in the Bible. Why then have the churches abandoned these principles?

I am just appalled, but, sadly, not surprised, at the ignorance and prejudice of the majority of the posters on this blog. Anti-Mormonism is alive and well. And it seems a lot of the vitriol is coming from posters who are promoting the anti-Mormon websites.

I do wonder why some of these posters can't or won't listen to the truth of Mormonism as posted by those of us who are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, rather than use the same old arguments that have been used for decades to discredit us. Why do people keep going to the same old sources, which, by the way were discredited a long time ago, and why do people insist on telling us what we believe, based on what our avowed enemies tell them, instead of going to the source and asking us true believers what we believe?

I have seen very little love or acceptance on this forum, and very little religious tolerance. I have seen some rational discussion, but the insistence that we throw out the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and go only by the Bible, does not lead to a true understanding of our religion.

If the truth be known, the evangelicals and other mainstream Christians do not go only by the Bible. They also go by the various creeds, and the Trinity Doctrines. Those creeds are not in the Bible. They are man-made philosophies that had nothing to do with the church that Jesus, and his Apostles, established. If they insist that we should go only by the Bible, then I suggest that they need to give up their Trinity Creeds, and go only by the Bible. If they did, they would see the truth: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the face of the earth. We are the only church with living apostles and prophets, led by revelation. We are the only church that offers hope to all, living or dead, and that doesn't condemn a person to hell because he didn't know or understand the gospel, or because he never even had a chance to hear about Jesus before he died. We are the only church that offers the hope that families can be together forever, even beyond this mortal life. Yet, all these things are in the Bible. Why then have the churches abandoned these principles?

I am just appalled, but, sadly, not surprised, at the ignorance and prejudice of the majority of the posters on this blog. Anti-Mormonism is alive and well. And it seems a lot of the vitriol is coming from posters who are promoting the anti-Mormon websites.

I do wonder why some of these posters can't or won't listen to the truth of Mormonism as posted by those of us who are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, rather than use the same old arguments that have been used for decades to discredit us. Why do people keep going to the same old sources, which, by the way were discredited a long time ago, and why do people insist on telling us what we believe, based on what our avowed enemies tell them, instead of going to the source and asking us true believers what we believe?

I have seen very little love or acceptance on this forum, and very little religious tolerance. I have seen some rational discussion, but the insistence that we throw out the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and go only by the Bible, does not lead to a true understanding of our religion.

If the truth be known, the evangelicals and other mainstream Christians do not go only by the Bible. They also go by the various creeds, and the Trinity Doctrines. Those creeds are not in the Bible. They are man-made philosophies that had nothing to do with the church that Jesus, and his Apostles, established. If they insist that we should go only by the Bible, then I suggest that they need to give up their Trinity Creeds, and go only by the Bible. If they did, they would see the truth: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the face of the earth. We are the only church with living apostles and prophets, led by revelation. We are the only church that offers hope to all, living or dead, and that doesn't condemn a person to hell because he didn't know or understand the gospel, or because he never even had a chance to hear about Jesus before he died. We are the only church that offers the hope that families can be together forever, even beyond this mortal life. Yet, all these things are in the Bible. Why then have the churches abandoned these principles?

Works and Grace discussion...I think we really agree more than we realize.

It is our belief, within the LDS community and everywhere else we find ourselves, that we work in order to learn to do as the Saviour invited, to "follow me," not for some empty "special place" in Heaven.

LDS and other faiths 1) work because of Jesus commandment to "come, follow me" and "be ye therefore perfect." All of us, LDS or other, learn to live as Christ lived by walking in his ways. LDS and other faiths 2) hold fast to Grace because works alone is inadequate, hence, Christ's atonement / his blood justifies our intent to follow him.

Like an infant learning to walk but still holding to parents hands in order to get anywhere, we as LDS, Work but hold fast to the Grace in Christ.

If we rely solely on works, our lives are empty. If we rely solely on Grace, our lives are equally empty. As he said in the book of James "faith without works is dead." Both are Grace and Works equally are needed, not one or the other.

Les,

If you truly hold Jesus as the Son of God and that His death has redeemed those who believe in Him then you need to ask yourself a question.

Why did God send His Son to die for our sins?

As you may be aware, in the OT people recieved salvation through following God's laws. And if one sinned, they sacrificed an animal for atonement of that sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice for our sins. Hebrews 10 explains this. In the OT, works WAS a requirement for salvation because there was the law of sacrifice for atonement of sins. So what was the purpose of Christ dying for us then if we had the law and the works to recieve salvation? Please read Romans 3 in it's entirety.

Basically Paul is saying no one is found righteous, not one. Meaning that not one was found righteous before Christ's coming because no one could follow the laws and the works needed to obtain salvation. Verse 23

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

So works cannot save us because our sins outdo our works. Therefore, Christ had to come to save us from our sins. We will always be sinners, but we recieve atonement of those sins by faith alone in Jesus, otherwise His death was in vain.

If salvation could be recieved through works in the OT, why would Jesus make it even harder for us to recieve salvation by throwing in faith as well? He made it easier for us to recieve this FREE gift because 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If works were a requirement, then heaven would be pretty empty. Don't you see that 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He loves us SO much that he wants us to be saved. But God knows that no matter how much works we do in this life, we will never amount to His glory. Can we create universes?? Nope! So how can our works, no matter how great, be equivolent to His?

By saying works is a requirement for salvation, you say Jesus died for no reason then. Please read the WHOLE Bible in context. You will realize the purpose for Jesus' death. So that we can recieve salvation. Please study the book of Romans. I think this is the best book that describes the law and works and salvation through faith alone. You need to relate the OT with the NT to realize the purpose for Jesus' death and that salvation comes through Him alone, and saying that works is a requirement for salvation only says that Jesus' death was meaningless. By saying that works is not a requirement, we hold the death of Jesus in a higher manner. By saying that salvation is through Christ alone makes us humble ourselves to know that no matter how great a works I do, I have to believe in the Son who died for my sins.

Now the LDS has to require works only because that's the only way the progression to godhood can work. But we know this to be a false doctrine and one of the easiest to prove false as well. Any organization that uses works as a requirement gives them a great opportunity to use this doctrine to decieve many into other false doctrines, such as the LDS and Catholicisms "required" sacraments for salvation. This doctrine of faith with works was described by Marin Luther as the "doctine that any church stands or falls by". I believe that as well. Because once you command works from your followers, you can get them to do anything. That scares me.

God bless

Les:

You admonished us to read the passages and verses you quoted “in their full context”. I would like to show you one of those verses you quoted in its full context.

You quoted Matthew 7:21
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

It seems your interpretation is that it’s not enough to say “Lord, Lord”, because you have to have works to be saved. This is a faulty interpretation, because you are taking this verse out of its context.

What is the context of this statement by Jesus? Let’s look at it by backing up:

“13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Beginning in verse 13 of this passage, Jesus is talking about salvation and the fact that few are finding it.

“15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

In light of His teaching on the narrow gate, verse 15 warns us to follow sound teaching and not false prophets. “Sheep’s clothing” means that these “false prophets” look like Christians. They call themselves Christians. They use Christian vocabulary. They purport to be prophets. But, they have not ever experienced the inward transformation that comes with turning your life over to Christ. They’re talkin’ the talk, but they’re walkin’ right through the wide gate to their destruction.

“16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

Continuing with the context, Jesus gives us a method for identifying false sheep and false prophets: We look at their fruits. This backs up what Ray just wrote to you. The works God accomplishes through me give witness of my salvation. It is NOT the other way around.

Now, don’t forget that Jesus is talking about FALSE PROPHETS here. Don’t lose sight of that as we move into the verse you quoted:

“21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Here is the verse you quoted. IN CONTEXT, the one who says “Lord, Lord” is a FALSE PROPHET. The inference of the verse is that the false prophet is not doing the will of the Father.
Jesus further describes these false prophets:

“22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

We are talking about prophets and miracle-workers and demon-casters here. This verse would not apply to me, because I do not say I am a prophet or a miracle-worker or a demon-extractor.
These false prophets had claimed to speak for God. They performed miracles in His name. They even cast out demons. But, in the end, it was not the will of the Father, because they lacked the only thing that could save them:

“23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
“I never knew you” tells us that what these false prophets lacked was a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ. They never knew Him, and He never knew them.

So, what about verse 21, which says we must do the will of the Father to enter the Kingdom? Does doing His will conflict with knowing Him? Could Jesus be saying two conflicting things in the very same passage? That’s not likely. He sends these false prophets away with the reason for their rejection: “I never knew you.” But, He does also say that we have to do the will of the Father. So, these two things must be the same, or Jesus is contradicting Himself.

In fact, He is saying the same thing. Look at this:

John 6:28-29 – “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

Jesus did not contradict Himself. The will of the Father IS to know the Son. That will bring salvation, not works. No amount of prophesying, demon-exorcizing, miracles, or any works can compensate for not having a relationship with Jesus Christ. If we come to know Him, He will begin to work through us, and others will see our fruits and know our faith is real. But, our faith must come first, and His grace is sufficient.

The passage ends with the parable of the wise and foolish builders. Jesus refers to a person “who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice” as building their life on the Rock of Christ. “These words of mine” refer to the sermon He was now completing, found in chapters 5-7 of Matthew. This sermon is not a list of rules to follow to get to heaven, but a detailed series of descriptions of what the hearts and lives of true believers will look like.

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

Ray:

You hit the nail on the head when you wrote, "And, God forbid that we think we can, in fact orchestrate God's freewill. If so, wouldn't we be god?"

Yes. Mormons believe that they are striving to achieve godhood. That is why they feel they have to work at it.

Les, your most recent post was inaccurate (at least your interpretation and application of the Bible).

The problem with your argument concerning the need for both grace and works is the presupposition on your part that God needs help from humanity in order to save humanity. By that I mean that if humanity could save itself it would, and there would be no need for God, or the Savior, Jesus Christ. The works on the part of humanity (i.e., Jesus' words to the rich young ruler in Matthew 7:21) that you mention is not a requirement for salvation; it is the fruit/evidence of salvation. (See the principles listed in Galatians 5:22-23. The are the same as what Jesus told the rich young ruler.)

The takeaway? Just as it is true that you know a tree by the fruit it bears, so too do you know one who has received salvation by the fruit they exhibit.

Grace is a gift of God, and it comes freely from God. Lest any of us forget that it is by grace that any one of us are saved, through faith, and that not of itself, lest anyone should boast (of their ability to orchestrate God's freewill). And, God forbid that we think we can, in fact orchestrate God's freewill. If so, wouldn't we be god?

Are we saved by works, grace or both? The Jews of Jesus’ time believed that they were justified by the works of the Law of Moses. Many Christians today believe that they are saved by grace alone. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that they are saved by both. The Book of Mormon says:

2 Ne. 25: 23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

What if we could go back in time and ask Jesus how to inherit eternal life? Well, we can’t time travel, but God has blessed us with an account of Jesus’ mortal ministry in the New Testament, and in Mark 10:17 the young rich man asked Jesus this question:

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

If it were true that we are saved by grace alone he would have answered (like you hear so many today) something like, “confess my name and accept me as your savior, and you will be saved.” But his answer (mark 10: 18-21) was much different:

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Here Jesus was not concerned about words but actions. He wanted to know if the young rich man was keeping the law and if he was willing to give all he had and act in following him, not just believe, but do. This goes well with what Christ said in Matt. 7: 21

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So one thing we must do to enter into the kingdom of heaven is do the will of the father. Jesus came to do the will of the father (John 5: 30) and we are commanded to follow him. Christ also commanded us in Matt. 5: 48 to: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” But “[…]all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)” so we must be “[…]justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).” But that does not mean that we do not need the works of the law: “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law(Romans 3: 31).

So even if we try our very hardest our works can never save us without grace which we receive from Christ through our faith. You can not be saved without faith onto grace and our works. Just like James explained in James 2:17-23

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Please look up these scriptures I used and read them in there full context, and read the whole Bible, and most important ask God who gives wisdom to those that ask in faith(James 1: 5-6). And you will see that there are many passages that say you are saved by obedience to the commandments of God and many others that say you are saved by faith onto grace because like my first quote from the Book of Mormon said“[…]we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.“

Those passages do not contradict each other—they explain each other. It is true that we inherit eternal life by doing the will of the father, but because of our weakness we all sin, so we depend on the atonement of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of those sins and we are saved by his grace—we need both grace and works.

Are we saved by works, grace or both? The Jews of Jesus’ time believed that they were justified by the works of the Law of Moses. Many Christians today believe that they are saved by grace alone. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that they are saved by both. The Book of Mormon says:

2 Ne. 25: 23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

What if we could go back in time and ask Jesus how to inherit eternal life? Well, we can’t time travel, but God has blessed us with an account of Jesus’ mortal ministry in the New Testament, and in Mark 10:17 the young rich man asked Jesus this question:

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

If it were true that we are saved by grace alone he would have answered (like you hear so many today) something like, “confess my name and accept me as your savior, and you will be saved.” But his answer (mark 10: 18-21) was much different:

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Here Jesus was not concerned about words but actions. He wanted to know if the young rich man was keeping the law and if he was willing to give all he had and act in following him, not just believe, but do. This goes well with what Christ said in Matt. 7: 21

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So one thing we must do to enter into the kingdom of heaven is do the will of the father. Jesus came to do the will of the father (John 5: 30) and we are commanded to follow him. Christ also commanded us in Matt. 5: 48 to: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” But “[…]all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)” so we must be “[…]justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).” But that does not mean that we do not need the works of the law: “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law(Romans 3: 31).

So even if we try our very hardest our works can never save us without grace which we receive from Christ through our faith. You can not be saved without faith onto grace and our works. Just like James explained in James 2:17-23

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Please look up these scriptures I used and read them in there full context, and read the whole Bible, and most important ask God who gives wisdom to those that ask in faith(James 1: 5-6). And you will see that there are many passages that say you are saved by obedience to the commandments of God and many others that say you are saved by faith onto grace because like my first quote from the Book of Mormon said“[…]we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.“

Those passages do not contradict each other—they explain each other. It is true that we inherit eternal life by doing the will of the father, but because of our weakness we all sin, so we depend on the atonement of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of those sins and we are saved by his grace—we need both grace and works.

Hi, Jim.

I think you have a good idea. We should email eachother. My email is ddsjjm@yahoo.com.
You can email me with your email address, and I will email you my response to your latest post.

John M.,

Thank you for your understanding.

I hope to be able to Answer your questions without becoming confussing. I am not very eloquent with my words. So it is my Prayer that I can discuss with you this topic with out becoming confussing.

I want to start with 3 Scriptures. All of wich after looking at all the references about the Father and the Son I think these 3 can help to explain why I say I praise Jesus. To me there is more than one way to praise. We can Pray, we can sing and we can serve Just to name 3. To use the second example singing. I love to Sing Hymns.(By the way I to am enjoying this discussion and to save length of posts coul dwe email each other?) My favorite is I am a child of God. I have sung that song to each of my Children just mere seconds after they were born, Followed by I know that My Redeemer Lives. I will Post the lyrics here.

136
I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Peacefully

31243, Hymns, I Know That My Redeemer Lives, no. 136

1. I know that my Redeemer lives.
What comfort this sweet sentence gives!
He lives, he lives, who once was dead.
He lives, my ever-living Head.
He lives to bless me with his love.
He lives to plead for me above.
He lives my hungry soul to feed.
He lives to bless in time of need.

2. He lives to grant me rich supply.
He lives to guide me with his eye.
He lives to comfort me when faint.
He lives to hear my soul’s complaint.
He lives to silence all my fears.
He lives to wipe away my tears.
He lives to calm my troubled heart.
He lives all blessings to impart.

3. He lives, my kind, wise heav’nly Friend.
He lives and loves me to the end.
He lives, and while he lives, I’ll sing.
He lives, my Prophet, Priest, and King.
He lives and grants me daily breath.
He lives, and I shall conquer death.
He lives my mansion to prepare.
He lives to bring me safely there.

4. He lives! All glory to his name!
He lives, my Savior, still the same.
Oh, sweet the joy this sentence gives:
“I know that my Redeemer lives!”
He lives! All glory to his name!
He lives, my Savior, still the same.
Oh, sweet the joy this sentence gives:
“I know that my Redeemer lives!”

Text: Samuel Medley, 1738–1799. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.

Music: Lewis D. Edwards, 1858–1921

Job 19:25

Psalm 104:33–34

This is one of the Most beloved hymns that We Latter-Day Saints sing. This Hymn praises Jesus. Look at verse 4 again. He Lives, All Glory to His name. He Lives, my Savior still the same.

Yes John we believe that Jesus Is Our God. Yet we also believe that The Father is God. If I am mistaken please let me know. From what I understand what you believe is that there is one being that is God expressed or manifested in 3 ways. Father, Son, And Holy Ghost. I believe there is one God manifest in 3 seperate Beings. 2 Physical and one Spiritual. I believe that God the Father has a physical body of Flesh and Bone immortal and Perfect. I believe he is the one Jesus told Mary he had not yet ascended. I believe that when Jesus told her to tell the Apostles he was going to "My Father and Your Father; and to My God and Your God " The Being he was reffering to is Our Heavenly Father. I believe That Jesus is also God because he had become one with the Father. He has always been one with the Father. Now I don't believe taht to be one as in the same personage. But one as in he will always do his will the Father Knows this and so he gave to Jesus before this world was created the power to Create the Universe. Something that I think is why I believe this is because Jesus is always telling us he was not sent to do his own will but the will of the Father. The other reason God has given his power to Jesus is so that Jesus could hav ethe ability to bear the sins of the world, to give up his own life, and the power to take it back again. No mortal can do that. So God sent his son. I have tried to understand how Jesus could be his own Father I have asked in prayer to understand it. All I get is that Jesus has a Father. I know that Jesus speaks at the Command of God because he is the Word of God. (Just a Side Note I have over the last 2 years been comparng John 1:1-5, and Gen 1:1-5)So I have a little different view of what the Word of God is. I believe that not only is Gen 1:1-5 talking about the begining of creation but I feel it tells us something about how the command came from the Father to the Son to do it. John tells us Jesus is the word of God. That he was with God and that he was God. then right after that he was in the beginning with God. Then he creates all things. Then John talks about Jesus being the Lfe and Light of men. Then he tells us taht his light is in us but we don't comprehend or acknowlkedge him in us. In Genisis We se that God created the Heavens and the Earth. the Earth was with out Form and Void (it was not yet organized. The materials were there they just weren't put together yet. Being Void isn't non existant Void means 1. Not occupied,2 Conatining nothing, being without something Specified. To me that is existing but not organized and with nothing else on it.)

And God Said let there be Light. First I have broken that Sentence down. God Said. (well I am trying to show you my thought process.) When we say something we use words. SO I look at it like this God Said or God used the Word or God our Heavenly Father used Jesus to Give light ( Let there be Light) John said he is the Light and Life of the world. Then He divided the light from the darkness. (That is literal but it is also a small parable. He seperated the Good from the evil.) John said that the Darkness didn't comprehend the Light. I love how in scripture you learn certain principle then when you reread it the lord takes you to a deeper level of meaning and understanding. That is why I love Parables.

I see the comparison of these 2 pieces of scripture as telling us that God Gave Jesus the comm