Readers’ Responses to Our Question (964)

You can thank your lucky stars that the framers of the Constitution were dead and gone before Smith & Young appeared on scene. Otherwise, the polygamists would have been chased off of the continent by the Continental Army.

With the progenitors of North American polygamy gone, we wouldn't be dealing with the FLDS mess in Texas, today.

In view of Mitt Romney's campaign experience, and the Pew Forum poll results showing 24% of registered voters would never vote for a Mormon for president regardless of his or her other qualifications, the media seem to be saying that Mormons are suffering from a case of social whiplash. Many Mormons probably feel very "mainstream" within their individual social circles, even those outside of Utah. Perhaps the only thing we can say with certainty is that religious bigotry (the complete intolerance of any faith that differs from one's own) is alive in millions of Americans. I'm glad the framers of the Constitution felt otherwise.

David,
I decided rather than give a long explanation to go with a short answer: read Malachi 3. The Lord must have other purposes for record keeping than for His memory's sake. (I really believe that.)

Again, I hope your family is all well. Have a great 2008.

David,
Hello, kind friend. I just noticed your comment from November. I'll reply tonight when I have time, but if you happen to see this I hope you and your family are doing very well, and had a nice time on your vacation of the last time we communicated. Best to you.

Mitt Romney has stirred the hornets nest. His faith is in the Mormon tradition - recast the image to suit the need of the moment. We cannot deny our core values.
Ohg.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2007/10/10/mormons-the-beginning-theology/

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I have to agree with Jason and cannot seem to find the logic in the tithing meetings. If it is an honor system then why the sit down? It would seem to insinuate some form of guilt on the person. And Parker, (hello again) you said that the LDS church keeps those tithing records for the day of judgement. I see a huge problem with that in that you must be assuming God needs help remembering things. Does God need a file cabinet? Is the LDS God not omniscient? It doesn't make sense Parker, sorry. And by the way, Rev 20 deals with the White Throne Judgement which is post millenial and those who are judged at that time will all be in hell. It is reserved for those who did not believe in Jesus or the true Jesus. So if you want to save those files for the White Throne Judgement feel free, but your works won't save you. The only thing that can save you is your faith in the true Jesus which I still pray for for you my friend.

Much love to you and yours.

David

Anubis:

Who is checking your "facts?" Every point you made about the LDS church was a half-truth or plain wrong.

C.K.,
I realize you weren't talking to me since you wrote about fear-based religious belief and that is nothing I or anyone I know experiences, although many are Latter-day Saints (Mormons). I agree that the more one moves away from fear and the desire to blame their circumstances on someone else or some institution, the better off one is by looking right into the mirror and saying, "I am responsible for my actions, my attitudes, my biases (by evaluating and changing what needs to be changed), my choices, and my lack of knowledge if I choose to be misinformed." There is a realm of knowledge that you evidently choose to ignore, and that is your right, but you needn't think you have all the knowledge in the world.

There are far better sources for researching Mormonism than here. But serious study takes patience and willingness to think outside of your own knowledge base. Peace to you.

I connected to this site via the Washington Post.

I've read all of the comments posted until 7:15 PM, Sunday November 11,2007.

The commentary is the same defensive used by every other 'believer' of every organized/self-serving group of people, whether they are believers of a religion: (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu etc.,etc.; a political body (the Nazi's, Stalinists, fascists e.g.) or a group of people in a town acting as JUDGE and JURY against anyone who does not think the way they do. (The Mexicans are taking away our jobs, or homosexuals are responsible for the DEMISE of our nation, etc...). The tactics are always the same. It's bait that never fails to attract the people who live in fear of being RESPONSIBLE for themselves.

Religion is a disease acquired by insecure, frightened people and it is ALWAYS marketed as a tool to promote egalitarianism and freedom for those people. It is then used as a tool to SEPARATE people and create more fear and confusion for the followers to create political and financial power by the organizational LEADERS over believers against the 'outsiders' or non-believers.

Works like a charm all the time for all the SHEEP in this world!

Jason,
You've asked a reasonable, legitimate question and made a logical assumption. But you may be familiar with Revelation 20:12, which to me is "the obvious answer" as it says:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These tithing records are stored in a confidential way, and add another piece to the mosaic of a person's life when they will one day stand before the Savior to be judged as to how they lived their lives on earth, at the day of judgement. Obviously, the Savior would know about our lives whether or not such a record was kept, but the "accountability" for our lives rests with each of us. I consider such a declaration to a bishop to be a sweet experience as he is a representative for Jesus Christ called by revelation to act in His name.

You need not be suspicious of the motives of LDS church leaders in these matters. When Jesus organized His church on earth in New Testament times, He organized a leadership structure for those who would be called to spread the gospel and to help administer the affairs that were needed to have places for members of the church to hold meetings and strengthen each other in their faith, as well as to look after the poor, the widows and the orphans. A reporting model that reflects personal accountability is consistent with Biblical teachings and patterns. Peace to you, Jason.

Why have the settlement meeting if it's on the honor system? Doesn't make sense unless the meeting is to squeeze more money out of the payer. Why do Mormons always try to explain away the obvious?

Anubis:

There is a correction I need to make to your post, which was close to the top of this thread.

You claimed that Mormon leaders keep track of how much income each Mormon makes to determine if they are paying an honest (full 10%) tithe.

That is not true. Tithing Settlement goes like this: At the end of the year the bishop arranges to have tithing settlement meetings with each family by posting a sign-up sheet. Members can CHOOSE to go to tithing settlement or not. Nobody harrasses anybody if they don't go. The ward will be reminded about the sign-up sheet till the end of the year, and then it's gone.

In Tithing Settlement: In his office, the bishop hands you a piece of paper that lists your donations for the year and asks if that is a full tithe. He may or may not even look at it. You either say yes or no. If you say no, you might want to write a cheque for the difference -- or not! If you say yes, he may ask how you liked the ball game, or how your life is going, and blah, blah, blah, end of interview. If not, you may wish to outline your financial struggles -- or not.

It's all the HONOR SYSTEM. Memebers are free to lie about being full tithe payers if they want to because NOBODY in the church knows their income or cares! But why would they bother? They don't HAVE to go to tithing setlement! I have skipped it myself on several occassions, even as a full tithe payer, just because I knew the question would be asked in my temple recommend interview.

I don't know how you evengelicals get these stories started. I suspect it is pretty much like the childhood birthday party game where all the kids sit in a circle and one whispers a secret to the next child. The secret is passed from child to child around the circle and finally the last kid announces the secret -- only its nothing like what was originally whispered! Sigh.

But it is curious to me that few of you actually change your mind when you are eventually corrected. I've just outlined a tithing settlement interview for you, but I am fairly certain that MOST of you will cling to the belief that the Mormon church closely monitors the member's income and forces us to pay tithing.

You might want to consider what clinging to that mistaken belief means to you.

Pastor,

Shame on you for defending Mormonism and at the same time pretending you are not a Mormon. As a Mormon of more than 50 years, I and other Mormons can tell your language is riddled with Mormonspeak.

For those of you who aren't Mormon, here are some of the giveaways: Enclosing the words "Christian" and "calling" in quotes. Using the word "calling" itself to refer to a church position. Referring to the Bible as the "scriptures." Using the terms "the Savior" and "Christ-like" instead of Jesus.

If you really believed the LDS church were true, you wouldn't need to hide behind the lie of a false front.

PASTOR quote: "Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could."

This is an all out lie.

Currently in Oklahoma alone about 50% of our offerings go to several Humanitarian funds and underprivileged funds. In fact Oklahoma has a children's home (adoption home) just outside the city that is jointly supported by several different religious groups including Catholics, Baptist, and other protestant groups. Not to mention all the supported food banks and care-centers.

Pastor would know that if he attended even one financial meeting at his local Christian church.

AND WHEN was the Mormon church ever "voluntarily quite open with their holdings" ask any member of the Mormon church if they get a break down of where church money is spent. They won't be able to tell you. On the flip side the Mormon church closely monitors what members give it's called "tithing settlement". The Mormon church records what members make to be sure they are paying their 10% in tithes. (or else they can't go to heaven, meaning they can't go to the LDS temple)

Currently the Mormon church has bought and refurbished a MALL for over 2 billion dollars. That's an awful lot of food for starving children.

Pastor, I'm going to say you look a lot like a "lying for the lord" Mormon.

The worst part about this (like the Pastor)is that Mormonism it trying to look like mainstream Christianity. Even on national TV the president of the Mormon church lied about deeply rooted doctrine (see Larry King Interview with Gordon B. Hinckley).

Who checks the facts when Mormons (and other cults) lie on what used to be factual journalism.

PASTOR quote: "Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could."

This is an all out lie.

Currently in Oklahoma alone about 50% of our offerings go to several Humanitarian funds and underprivileged funds. In fact Oklahoma has a children's home (adoption home) just outside the city that is jointly supported by several different religious groups including Catholics, Baptist, and other protestant groups. Not to mention all the supported food banks and care-centers.

Pastor would know that if he attended even one financial meeting at his local Christian church.

AND WHEN was the Mormon church ever "voluntarily quite open with their holdings" ask any member of the Mormon church if they get a break down of where church money is spent. They won't be able to tell you. On the flip side the Mormon church closely monitors what members give it's called "tithing settlement". The Mormon church records what members make to be sure they are paying their 10% in tithes. (or else they can't go to heaven, meaning they can't go to the LDS temple)

Currently the Mormon church has bought and refurbished a MALL for over 2 billion dollars. That's an awful lot of food for starving children.

Pastor, I'm going to say you look a lot like a "lying for the lord" Mormon.

The worst part about this (like the Pastor)is that Mormonism it trying to look like mainstream Christianity. Even on national TV the president of the Mormon church lied about deeply rooted doctrine (see Larry King Interview with Gordon B. Hinckley).

Who checks the facts when Mormons (and other cults) lie on what used to be factual journalism.

My goodness! For a non-Mormon, "Pastor" certainly does use a lot of Mormon buzzwords, doesn't he?

Could it be that "Pastor" is really a Mormon pretending to be a non-Mormon? Could not happen? When I was a faithful tithe paying Mormon, a Mormon friend boasted to me that he would often join in a debate and pretend to be a non-Mormon, praising the Mormon Church by saying things like: "I have Mormon friends. They are really nice" and so forth.

He believed that he was justified as he was "doing it for the Lord." When I suggested that The Lord would not appreciate people lying on his behalf he got quite cross with me!

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To RCB (July 3)~

I plugged the names of some of those organizations into the Google search engine. When I got to the Board of Directors of the Bonneville Corporation, I clicked on the links to their resumes. These folks are obviously not "small potatoes". While Jim Baker had some kind of resort or theme park somewhere, I don't see these folks in the media involved in some of the other types of embarrassing transactions in which he was involved, although anyone has that potential. While not all, some have been widely involved in professional activity well outside Utah. This is a slightly-different gallery of people than we might have expected among what some label as devil-worshipers. These are obviously respectable citizens.

Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could.

I've been working at a Southern Baptist church for nigh onto 17 years as an outside contractor. During that time, their congregation has split twice, always over money or facility issues. Recently, in conversation with a young minister working there, he explained to me that there is a new trend among several "Christian" churches that I hadn't known before. He said many groups are getting away from a focus on churches (the buildings) and preachers. They live in quasi-communes where an entire group will have shared ownership in the property. I've learned from Mormon friends that they have no secular interest in their buildings. In fact, once the construction of a new building is completed, before it is inhabited, it's paid for. Their buildings are apparently very simple, but incorporate the most up-to-date systems. Their ministers generate their own income as a psychologist, public school principal, dentist, etc., and are "called" to serve in their ministerial capacity as a volunteer and only for a limited period of time until they are released from their calling and replaced by another person. With the exception paying competitive salaries of professional people who work for their church, all the Mormon Church's revenues pay for new buildings, maintaining all their buildings, part of their missionary effort (except for living expenses that each missionary is responsible for themselves), educational services, and worldwide humanitarian efforts. Some "Christian" congregations split because one faction doesn't agree with their minister. How well I know this. I realize such an event could never occur in the Mormon Church.

I've examined it thoroughly. There is nothing selfish about the Mormon Church or its members. They give/serve freely of their time and talents, not only to their church, but to the community (local, state, national, international).

What all the "Christian" turmoil seems to boil down to is extreme jealousy. I've learned that Mormon missionaries convert our "Christians" and instantly reduce the pastor's salary. And so, we see "Christian" church ministers arming their libraries and bookstores with anti-Mormon literature, much of which amounts to nothing other than gossip, innuendo, and hate.

I personally know a few people who joined and then left the Mormon Church. It's sad, but these folks are often the ones who spread hate toward this church. Exactly why is impossible to always know. However, it does make me wonder why they allowed themselves to "unwittingly" join it to begin with. If they are such intelligent decision-makers, what happened? I do believe that we need to stop childishly throwing mud at them. It's like some bullying playground behavior. Right now, these people are reaping a TON of nationwide media attention, and anti-Mormons are fueling it left & right. This group has never enjoyed so much of it, ever. If people look beyond the mud-slinging, they eventually become educated as to the benefits of Mormonism, and they discover that it's really quite an admirable group that does an enormous amount of good around the world, despite the recipients' race, color, creed.

We as "Christians" need to befriend these folks, not make them our enemies. If I were Mormon, I wonder just what I would think of all the mud. It would raise my wall of resistance too high to navigate for anyone. As "Christians" believing in the New Testament and followers of Christ, we need to take stock of our own practices. We need to clear the shelves in our church and personal libraries of ALL hate literature. We need to seek these folks out in a peaceful, Christ-like way so they will know in their hearts that we love them just as our Savior does. We need to rise above hate, and make our Savior pleased with us. All the answers are available in the Scriptures and prayer.

It could possibly be that the whole issue over Mormonism at this time might be about the upcoming presidential election, and an opportunity to use it as a tool to slander his religion. If we plan to vote, our decision must be based on who will best represent our beliefs about the importance of a stable family and the relationship between a husband and wife and their children, conservative spending, what will be taught in our schools, working respectfully with other nations, patriotism, who will have the right to be married (and enjoy tax benefits therefrom) if that's what you believe, will there be legal abortions available everywhere, who will revere our national heritage, strengthen our military, be living most closely the laws of God as described in the Bible. Any true Christian can figure out who to vote for by studying all the candidates and determining not to vote for a candidate that doesn't have a chance of winning. In this election, we have the opportunity to either lose big, or win big. I want members of my congregation to have the most freedom from government, taxation, to have the most safety and security from terrorists, to have their grandchildren enjoy the same kinds of freedom. I often wish we had more front-running candidates to choose from but, of those out there, I already know who I will vote for despite my personal disagreement with what one of their ancestors did.

To RCB (July 3)~

I plugged the names of some of those organizations into the Google search engine. When I got to the Board of Directors of the Bonneville Corporation, I clicked on the links to their resumes. These folks are obviously not "small potatoes". While Jim Baker had some kind of resort or theme park somewhere, I don't see these folks in the media involved in some of the other types of embarrassing transactions in which he was involved, although anyone has that potential. While not all, some have been widely involved in professional activity well outside Utah. This is a slightly-different gallery of people than we might have expected among what some label as devil-worshipers. These are obviously respectable citizens.

Since most "Christian" churches are not centrally-managed, they could never possibly make investments beyond church camps, vans for transporting members to out-of-town events, their own building, perhaps an on-property recreation center. I haven't made a study of such things, but we can see the Mormon Church is voluntarily quite open with their holdings. I believe they would if they could.

I've been working at a Southern Baptist church for nigh onto 17 years as an outside contractor. During that time, their congregation has split twice, always over money or facility issues. Recently, in conversation with a young minister working there, he explained to me that there is a new trend among several "Christian" churches that I hadn't known before. He said many groups are getting away from a focus on churches (the buildings) and preachers. They live in quasi-communes where an entire group will have shared ownership in the property. I've learned from Mormon friends that they have no secular interest in their buildings. In fact, once the construction of a new building is completed, before it is inhabited, it's paid for. Their buildings are apparently very simple, but incorporate the most up-to-date systems. Their ministers generate their own income as a psychologist, public school principal, dentist, etc., and are "called" to serve in their ministerial capacity as a volunteer and only for a limited period of time until they are released from their calling and replaced by another person. With the exception paying competitive salaries of professional people who work for their church, all the Mormon Church's revenues pay for new buildings, maintaining all their buildings, part of their missionary effort (except for living expenses that each missionary is responsible for themselves), educational services, and worldwide humanitarian efforts. Some "Christian" congregations split because one faction doesn't agree with their minister. How well I know this. I realize such an event could never occur in the Mormon Church.

I've examined it thoroughly. There is nothing selfish about the Mormon Church or its members. They give/serve freely of their time and talents, not only to their church, but to the community (local, state, national, international).

What all the "Christian" turmoil seems to boil down to is extreme jealousy. I've learned that Mormon missionaries convert our "Christians" and instantly reduce the pastor's salary. And so, we see "Christian" church ministers arming their libraries and bookstores with anti-Mormon literature, much of which amounts to nothing other than gossip, innuendo, and hate.

I personally know a few people who joined and then left the Mormon Church. It's sad, but these folks are often the ones who spread hate toward this church. Exactly why is impossible to always know. However, it does make me wonder why they allowed themselves to "unwittingly" join it to begin with. If they are such intelligent decision-makers, what happened? I do believe that we need to stop childishly throwing mud at them. It's like some bullying playground behavior. Right now, these people are reaping a TON of nationwide media attention, and anti-Mormons are fueling it left & right. This group has never enjoyed so much of it, ever. If people look beyond the mud-slinging, they eventually become educated as to the benefits of Mormonism, and they discover that it's really quite an admirable group that does an enormous amount of good around the world, despite the recipients' race, color, creed.

We as "Christians" need to befriend these folks, not make them our enemies. If I were Mormon, I wonder just what I would think of all the mud. It would raise my wall of resistance too high to navigate for anyone. As "Christians" believing in the New Testament and followers of Christ, we need to take stock of our own practices. We need to clear the shelves in our church and personal libraries of ALL hate literature. We need to seek these folks out in a peaceful, Christ-like way so they will know in their hearts that we love them just as our Savior does. We need to rise above hate, and make our Savior pleased with us. All the answers are available in the Scriptures and prayer.

It could possibly be that the whole issue over Mormonism at this time might be about the upcoming presidential election, and an opportunity to use it as a tool to slander his religion. If we plan to vote, our decision must be based on who will best represent our beliefs about the importance of a stable family and the relationship between a husband and wife and their children, conservative spending, what will be taught in our schools, working respectfully with other nations, patriotism, who will have the right to be married (and enjoy tax benefits therefrom) if that's what you believe, will there be legal abortions available everywhere, who will revere our national heritage, strengthen our military, be living most closely the laws of God as described in the Bible. Any true Christian can figure out who to vote for by studying all the candidates and determining not to vote for a candidate that doesn't have a chance of winning. In this election, we have the opportunity to either lose big, or win big. I want members of my congregation to have the most freedom from government, taxation, to have the most safety and security from terrorists, to have their grandchildren enjoy the same kinds of freedom. I often wish we had more front-running candidates to choose from but, of those out there, I already know who I will vote for despite my personal disagreement with what one of their ancestors did.

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

Reply to AXELDC~

I visited China about a month ago. On t.v. news, they showed a guy who was about to be executed, their ex-FDA czar, for accepting bribes.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that U.S. Americans have the blessing to believe as they choose. Some "Christian" religions utilize poisonous snakes or rolling on the floor in contortions in their worship services. Some pray to statues. Some believe that their members may believe anything they like. Some incorporate what they call "charismatics" involving entertainment (live bands, tambourines, even muscle-bound humans dressed up as transformers. Some involve preachers who scream their brains out or others are very passive. Some believe that the wine or wafer transfigures into the blood or flesh of a deceased human. At some, people routinely "speak in tongues". In the past, some burned a brand on a woman's forehead if she was THOUGHT to have "sinned". In the 1860s, the Southern Baptist Convention split from the main body because they wanted to perpetuate slavery. Some will still chase you down and threaten physical harm if they thought you had taken a photo of them. Ya really gotta get out! Do we live in a strange world here in the U.S. where our government is supposed to be bound to guarantee us the right to religious freedom yet we seem to be surrounded by some citizens who either fail to recognize this, or they would prefer to change the Constitution? Maybe we should add some exceptions to the document now? Everyone except the Shakers, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God? Perhaps we need to legislate that everyone becomes the SAME in our National Village?

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Mr. Parker & I had an exchange a while back about funding for the Mormon church's new shopping center in SLC.

I came across this astonishing list of church enterprises. Possibly this is the source of some or all of the funding:

Companies affiliated with the Mormon Church include:

(1) Beneficial Financial Group
(2) Bonneville International Corporation
(3) Deseret Book Company
(4) Deseret Morning News
(5) Hawaii Reserves Inc.
(6) Temple Square Hospitality Corporation
(7) Zions Securities Corporation

(http://www.deseretmanagement.com)

Christian:
That was a nice post.

Back to the question that is at the heart of this string: Where do Mormons stand with respect to mainstream American culture? I think the answer is that they are influenced by America and influence America, especially in political and religious matters. They are accepted as mainstream in the Western US (except in the coastal Northwest, where they are ridiculed and shunned by the left and religious right), villified and respected in the South and looked upon with respect in the Midwest and Northeast. How do I know? I am a Mormon who has lived and worked all across this land. I think Mormons are accepted politically and culturally. However, I find that they are not accepted by some "mainstream" (whatever that means) Christian churches in their religious community and are often attacked by smear campaigns.

The funny thing is that my name is Christian. I believe in Christ. I study and revere the Bible. However, a few Christians attack my beliefs as not being Christian because they seem to think they have the whole claim on truth and on Christ Jesus (I think only God has such a claim). I walk with Him and talk with Him and He tells me I am on the path to salvation. You can disagree but that doesn't change the truth He has planted in my heart.

When I studied at BYU, I was the only Mormon who was part of the evangelical Bible study club (yes, not everyone at BYU is Mormon). Week after week, it became clear to me that we were speaking of the same Christ and we lifted each other up in faith. I believe it is the devil who tries to divide "Mormons" from "Catholics" from "evangelicals" from so many others who believe in Christ. In that spirit, I act in concert with many Mormon and non-Mormon Christian friends to teach of Christ and His redeeming power.

It is not purity of doctrine that will save us all in the end. Jesus Christ is the only one who can save us. In that belief, I find that I am part of mainstream religious America, no matter how much others try to label me and exclude me from salvation through the blood of the Lamb.

One last thing, I believe the political anti-religious left in this country loves dividing Mormons from evangelicals and other conservative Christians, because they know that if we stand together, America will be a country of strong moral values where God is revered and loved for generations to come.

For all you true believers on this post (some of them truly scary) espousing the ten commandments, I challenge you to name them, in any order, without looking them up. Proper wording is not necessary.

I'm curious to see how many actually can.

Mormonism is a very strange religion that modern Mormons, especially the LDS General Authorities, try to mask with Osmond-white smiles and gleemingly perfect families.

The fact is that most Mormons don't know the half of how bizarre their religion is, and the half they do know, they are not going to tell you. They call it "giving milk before meat".

Ask Mormons to explain to you the Book of Abraham, the Adam-God theory that Brigham Young taught. They won't mention blood atonement or Kolob to you.

Mitt Romney recently lied that Mormons don't believe in polygamy. Mormons think that all worthy men will have multiple wives, and that Heavenly Father and Jesus each have multiple wives in heaven. Polygamy is only banned on Earth because the US government forced them to do so in 1896, and again in 1901. Modern Mormons are embarrassed and uncomfortable talking about polygamy, but the fact is they still call it the "New and Everlasting Covenant".

Most Mormons won't tell you about the Temple Ceremony, and most don't know how Joseph Smith stole it from the Masons, or how the LDS Church has shortened it and taken out many offensive parts from it. They will just tell you "it's sacred, not secret."

Mormons can be very nice people, even if they are taught to be passive-agressive by their culture. That doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith invented a bizarre religion, Brigham Young preserved it, and the Mormons have spent the last 50 years trying to tell everyone that they are just good, wholesome, patriotic Christians.

Mormonism is pretty crazy -- just like all Christian sects.

TC:

You may be right. In fact, I think we'll all be very surprised by what we didn't know and thought we knew.

Tom

all i have to say is if you believe in mormonism, you are an idiot. furthermore, when you die and all becomes made clear, you are going to say to yourself 'wow i am an idiot'

Well, Dave. I'm still not clear.... This replaces my 3rd paragraph:

Clicking "Response" opens separate window. Complete the response, "Preview" then "Post" as you have it. New window closes, my response follows directly under, indented, the one I'm addressing. Any number could do same to original comment, as well as to each other. Every window has a "Response" and each new window has a "Preview" and "Post." Washington Post IT gurus might need to look at format to see if 4, 6 or other indention is enough.

Morning, Dave.

The current format allows for "comments," but once made they are randomly placed at the top of the page, in the order in which they are made. As a result, Participants are repeating themselves with "new" questions, ideas or answers. Can't be helped.

Much time is needed in order to comb through discussions to see what is new, a follow up or old. Can't afford many late nights to participate. Rather than dig through volumes of discussions to find, read or join a specific topic, a "Response" hyperlink imbedded at the end of each comment may be useful.

Click "Response" at the end of a comment would then follow directly below and indented, not at the top. Subsequent back and forth comments, either to the original topic or follow up comments would likewise be indented below the item commented on.

Indenting off of the main comment to no more than 4-6 times (a random number) restricts the body of texts for ease of reading.

Park University (www.park.edu) uses this type of format for its' on-line class room discussions.

Tom

LtCol Tom Sakievich:

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you elaborate? What do you mean by "allow responses to be indented one through four. All other responses would flow under four."

Thanks.

David Waters
Producer, "On Faith"

WEBMASTER: It would be far easier to follow topics and blog members is you would allow responses to be indented one through four. All other responses would flow under four.

"Life" doesn't allow the luxury of time to return to the blog every week. Would be good if we could read without attempting to comb through all that is written.

Thanks. Tom

Thank God for Deut 18:20-22, Matt 7:15-23, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 1 John 4:1,2 Tim 4:2-4,1 Cor 14:32-37,Isa 30:9-14,Jer 5:31, Deu 13:1,Jer 14:14-16.

If it weren't for those, how could I know what is true teaching or false?

Prov 2:6,9-11 (NIV) For the Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.... Then you will understand what is right and just and fair--every good path. For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you.

Thank you God for giving me words from your mouth so that I can gain the knowledge to discern the right from lies.

God bless

Entertaining to watch all the spats among the superstitious. Got any good rain dances for us?

Anonymous,
Thanks for the reminder about the test this blog has been for some of us--can we practice what the Savior taught about love and forgiveness despite being criticized for following Him? I know I have much growing to do in how I love and forgive those who ridicule our beliefs that I hold as precious as life itself.

Thank goodness for the teachings of the Savior in Matthew 5.

Leslie:

You wrote: "watch your tongue because you never know when you could be blashemying against the Holy Ghost"

Really? I NEVER know? Is it that mysterious? Do I have to walk around COMPLETELY clueless as to which teachings are from God and which are not?

Actually, NO. The Holy Spirit lives within me, so He would not lead me to blaspheme Him. He gives me knowledge and wisdom regarding His precepts. He has also given me His Word, which I use as a "double-edged" sword. The one side cuts through false beliefs; the other side cuts through ME and tells me when my heart and my actions are not in sync with His will.

Paul tell us to "test everything". John tells us to "test the spirits". Both the Old and New Testaments talk about false gods, false beliefs, false prophets and false teachers. I know God wants me to discern His teachings and His will from human or satanic teachings and practices.

That's what we're doing here. David and I have written a lot on this thread. I'd like to invite you to show me where our teachings differ from what God has said in the Bible.

Leslie,

So are you saying we should accept all false doctrine just because someone says they believe in Jesus? I'd like to know what you believe in. If you are an LDS, do you accept Jehovah's Witnesses to be a true Christian church? Please tell me what the ten commandments have anything to do with questioning the faith of one's beliefs BIBLICALLY. Also, how do you know what you believe in is the TRUTH?

I am a christian, and all I have to say to all you who have so much to say about the Mormon religion is.... They believe in Jesus Christ our redeemer so they cannot be a wrong church. Again if you have any thing else to say maybe you should go back and read the 10 commandments and you will see that the first is Do not take the lords name in vain. Perhaps you should write all ten down and for each commandment it can mean alot of things, so write what you think they can possibly mean to you and obey them... I don't think talking badly about a church is christ like.
And another thing I would watch your tongue because you never know when you could be blashemying against the Holy Ghost!

Here's an analogy. It's my attempt to explain how frustrated I am hearing LDS interpretations of the Bible.

Let's say you walk by a cheap painting on velvet. You say, "Look! Dogs playing poker." Then, the person next to you says, "Actually, they're plotting to take over the world."

Really? It sure looks like they're playing cards. Could they be plotting a coup? I guess if dogs could read cards and smoke, they could plot. But, there is NO WAY you could ever look at this painting and get that idea on your own.

Next, the guy next to you says, "Yeah, and those are not cards in their hands; they're guns. And, they're not dogs; they're angels."

Huh??? They look like dogs. And they are holding cards. I don't see any guns. I don't see any angels.

In this analogy, it is clear what you are seeing, but the person next to you swears that there is more to the picture than what you are seeing, and he says what you are seeing is not what it clearly seems to be.

That's how I see Mormons reading the Bible. What it clearly says is not really what it means. And, there are hidden meanings that you could never guess in a million years.

When it says there is no marriage in heaven, it means there really is marriage in heaven for those who earn it. When it says there is only one God, it means there are many gods but they are of one purpose. When it says Adam and Eve sinned against God, it really means they did a good thing since God needed them to eat the fruit so they could advance God's plan. When it says that those who deny Jesus go to eternal hell, it actually means all good people end up in one of three really nice places for eternity.

We pre-existed. We can achieve godhood. We have work to do to perfect ourselves. None of that seems to be in the Bible, but it really is. You have to believe it first and then God will show it to you.

Are you kidding?

The god of Mormonism is a trickster. He says one thing but means another. He gives us obvious scriptures but they don't mean what they seem to mean. He keeps revealing things that run contrary to what he has already said. He runs a secret church that discloses things as people are worthy to receive them.

I am so happy that this mean god does not exist. I praise Jesus that He is the God who communicates His will to us so clearly. I am thrilled that He never changes. I am thankful that He thought ahead of time to write every false teaching that would ever appear on earth into His Word, so we would recognize it when we see it.

He is one God. He has always been God. He is all powerful. He never changes. He is love. He gave Himself for me. He loves me. He has forgiven me. He communicates clearly to me.

That's my God. That's my Jesus.

Parker,

Hi again.

I just want to address the Trinity once again. I read over what I posted and I still can't believe that I compared the Trinity to superman. What was I thinking?? LOL.

Anyway, I'd like to take back my comments about how I TRIED to explain the Trinity. I was searching last night on how to explain such a topic. In words it is very difficult. In Spirit I can understand. The one major thing that needs to be evaluated is that the Bible clearly teaches of ONE God. Not "oneness". Big difference. I can cite a bunch of verses that say that God is ONE God, but I'm sure you know them already. You mentioned how us humans are always trying to "define" God. We don't need to. God defined Himself. God is three different persons, but ONE God. That statement makes no sense at all to the logical, human mind of ours, but spiritually it does make sense. We can't make sense of it because we do not think a plural can be a singular as well. I think it is comparable to how God described a husband and wife. "They become ONE fless". Of course we are two different people, but we are ONE now. I also read an anology of the Trinity that can somewhat make sense. God is like time. There is past, present and future, but it is time. Yes, quite possibly the hardest thing to understand in our finite minds concerning the Bible, but yet so true. Taking the Bible as a whole, God clearly shows us that He is but ONE God. Not oneness, but ONE as in singular. I just wonder how you account for all those verses that clearly claim the singular God? They sure can't be ignored, right?

Concerning the council of nicea and the Trinity.
As you know the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. Of course that is a man-made word to describe God. But why does that matter? It is purely biblical and just an easier way for Christians to call the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ONE God. Not that big of a deal. Just a descriptive word. It's not an added doctrine to the Bible. It's biblical in every sense. It existed before the council, but was just named that officially at nicea. Doesn't it make sense to be able to explain the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as One in the form of but one word? I know all the early Christians believed in One God and that the three persons of God formed One God. Instead of saying all that, why not call it "Trinity". It's just easier darnit.

Have a great day
God bless you

If a reader wonders whether I will respond to John, I already have repeatedly and consider it enough said on these topics.

Parker:

You have been deceived regarding the Council at Nicea. It was a formality to put down the heresy of the day. The vote was almost unanimous, so there was no debate. They put together a statement of what they believed. A similar, but much older, document is the Apostles' Creed. Both creeds are identical to what the first century Christians believed. The creeds are biblical.

Having said that, the creeds have done nothing to shape my faith or beliefs. I get my beliefs from the Bible. It so happens that I agree with the creeds, but only because they happen to be biblical. I don't recite them. It is not part of what we do at my church. But, I would endorse them. They are biblical. Contrary to what you have been taught, the creeds did not invent the concept of the Holy Trinity. The Bible gives us that, from the first verse of Genesis on.

You think I have been taught what to believe, but you're wrong. That would be you. Everything you believe comes from your leaders. So, you just keep assuming that my beliefs come from men, too. That's not the case. My faith is in who God has so clearly revealed Himself to be in the Bible.

Mr. Parker writes:

"I have no idea how much the mall/BYU SLC campus investment will cost, but I do know that no tithing funds will be spent on that project. The funding will come from investment returns as far as I know, and as far as I know the returns from this investment will provide a return also, so it is not like pouring money down a black hole. The investment will pay for itself over time."

Well, without real data, we can do nothing but speculate - and what would the point be?

I will say however, that I'm having difficulty understanding how the concepts of 'spirituality' and 'shopping-center' fit together.

Lynn:

You wrote:
"why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church...?"

un-canonized???

Did you miss these LDS scriptures I quoted?

Moses 7:8
For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3:6
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

- Are these not your scriptures?

Lynn:

You wrote:
"why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church...?"

un-canonized???

Did you miss these LDS scriptures I quoted?

Moses 7:8
For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3:6
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

Answers, anyone?

Joseph Nasu, I've already told you that the Mormon Bible is the King James Bible. So why do you insist on making snide remarks about our Bible?

Walter, why should the LDS leadership apologize for some of the un-canonized writings of some of the early leaders of the LDS church, especially since our enemies have twisted so many of them? Isn't it enough to know that the Priesthood blessings are for all worthy men in the church, that there are black leaders in the church, and black missionaries, and that there are temples in Africa? While you were in the church, did you ever read the Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declaration 2, or, since then, have you read about President Hinckley's experience as an Apostle at that time, their fervent prayers in the temple, the tears of joy shed by the Brethren, the witness of the Spirit that it was time, at long last, for the priesthood ban to be lifted? We don't know, and it isn't for us to judge, why there was a ban in the first place, and it does no good to keep speculating about it.

“We will have a world government wether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent.” (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

Maier Amschel Rothschild said:
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who writes its laws"

MODERN ASHKENAZI JEWS ARE FROM KHAZARIA...BUT DO YOU EVER LEARN THAT IN SCHOOL???????? THEY REWRITE HISTORY!

"We shall drive the Christians into war by exploiting
their national vanity and stupidity. They will then massacre
each other, thus giving room for our own people."
(Rabbi Reichorn, July 1, 1880)

"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of
European Jewry for a Zionist State. Everything was done to
create a state of Israel and that was only possible through a
world war. Wall Street and Jewish large bankers aided the war
effort on both sides. Zionists are also to blame for provoking
the growing hatred for Jews in 1988."
(Joseph Burg, The Toronto Star, March 31, 1988).

"Israel won the war [WWI]; we made it; we thrived on it;
we profited from it. It was our supreme revenge on Christianity."
(The Jewish Ambassador from Austria to London, Count Mensdorf, 1918)

"History, Sir, will tell lies as usual"
- George Bernard Shaw, The Devil's Disciple

David,
I will try to answer the intent of your question. When the Savior answered questions, he understood perfectly the intent of the question being posed, so he was able to answer the intent of the question when he answered the question. What would have been the intent of the question "Show us