Readers’ Responses to Our Question (109)

Did Jesus even exist at all??? For that mater did Mosses exist at all?? seams the only reference of these two people are in religious books and writings... starange how the Egyptains have no reference to Mosses, and the Romans have no refernce of Jesus. One would think with the record keeping by both of these societies that they would make mention of these two dudes....

But then again the Christains did there best to destory all books and writings after the fall of rome..Now what is real crazy is that Christains, Jews and Muslims all kill each other in the name of God...How nice is that----

Was Jesus a social revolutionary?

social: adjective: relating to human society and its members

revolutionary: noun: a radical supporter of political or social revolution

Jesus was not interested in or part of any political movement. When he was offered political power he refused it. (John 6:14&15) And rightly so, because Jesus knows Jehovah God’s purpose for the earth will not be realized through human governments but through God’s heavenly government.(Matthew 6:10&11)

That Jesus laid the groundwork for a classless society might have caused some to believe that Jesus was a social revolutionary. Actually, he was supporting Jehovah God’s original purpose for mankind.

Another question is, Is a classless society really possible?
So far, history has shown that humans are far from equal, and class distinctions are still a predominant feature of society. Such classes have not brought any benefits to society as a whole. Social class systems divide people, resulting in envy, hatred, heartache, and much bloodshed. The one-time white-supremacy mentality in Africa, Australia, and North America brought misery to nonwhites—including the total genocide of the Aborigines in Tasmania. In Europe, classifying the Jews as inferior was a prelude to the Holocaust. The great wealth of the aristocracy and the dissatisfaction among the lower and middle classes were factors that led to the French Revolution of the 18th century and to the Bolshevik Revolution in 20th-century Russia.
The Bible says, "Man has dominated man to his injury." (Ecclesiastes 8:9) These words are true whether those dominating are individuals or classes. When one group of people elevates itself over another, misery and suffering inevitably result.
In God's eyes, one group of humans is not inherently superior to another group. The Bible says: "[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth." (Acts 17:26) The Creator "has not shown partiality to princes and has not given more consideration to the noble one than to the lowly one, for all of them are the work of his hands." (Job 34:19) All humans are related, and before God all are born equal.
We are all born equal in God's eyes, and we all end up equal in death. It’s futile to promote one group of people over another during our short lifetime.
Still, there is hope that some day there will be a society among the living where social class will not be important. Almost 2,000 years ago when Jesus was on the earth, the groundwork was laid for such a society. Jesus gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for all believing mankind so that "everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).
To show that none of his followers should elevate themselves above fellow believers, Jesus said: "You, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled." (Matthew 23:8-12) In God's eyes, all of Jesus' true disciples are equal in the faith.
The early Christians, who got the sense of Jesus' teaching, viewed themselves as equal. They viewed one another as equal in the faith and showed this by addressing one another as "brother." (Philemon 1, 7, 20) Nobody was encouraged to view himself as being better than others. Consider the way in which Peter described himself in his second letter: "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours." (2 Peter 1:1) Peter had personally been instructed by Jesus, and as an apostle, he held an important position of responsibility. Yet, he considered himself to be a slave and recognized that other Christians held the faith in equal privilege with him.
Some may say that the ideal of equality is contradicted by the fact that in pre-Christian times God made Israel his special nation. (Exodus 19:5, 6) They may claim that this is an example of racial superiority. It is true that the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham, enjoyed a special relationship with God and were used as the channel for divine revelations. (Romans 3:1) But the purpose of this was not to put them on a pedestal. Rather, it was in order that 'all nations would be blessed.' (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:8).
It turned out that most Israelites did not imitate the faith of Abraham. They were unfaithful and rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Because of that, God rejected them. (Matthew 21:43) However, the meek among mankind did not lose out on the promised blessings. At Pentecost 33 C.E., the Christian congregation was born. This organization of Christians who were anointed by holy spirit was called "the Israel of God," and it proved to be the channel through which those blessings would come. (Galatians 6:16).
Some members of that congregation needed educating in the matter of equality. For example, the disciple James counseled those who were treating wealthy Christians with more honor than poorer ones. (James 2:1-4) That was wrong. The apostle Paul showed that Gentile Christians were in no way inferior to Jewish Christians, and female Christians were in no way inferior to males. He wrote: "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26-28).
True Christians today try to live according to Scriptural principles. They recognize that social classes have no meaning in the eyes of God. They have no clergy/laity division, and they are not segregated according to skin color or wealth. Although some of them may be wealthy, they do not focus on "the showy display of one's means of life," for they realize that such things are only transitory. (1 John 2:15-17) They all are united by their worship of the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah God.
Every true Christian accepts the responsibility to share in the work of preaching the good news of the Kingdom to his or her fellowman. Like Jesus, they honor the downtrodden and neglected by visiting them in their homes, offering to teach them God's Word. Those with a humble status in life work side by side with those who may be viewed by some as upper class. It is spiritual qualities that count, not social class. As in the first century, all are brothers and sisters in the faith.
Equality does not mean total uniformity. Men and women, old and young, are all represented in the Christian organization that includes people from many, many racial, linguistic, national, and economic backgrounds. As individuals, they have different mental and physical abilities. But those differences do not make some superior or others inferior. Rather, such differences result in a delightful variety. Those Christians recognize that any talents they have are gifts from God and are no reason for feelings of superiority.
Class divisions are a result of man's trying to govern himself instead of following God's guidance. Soon, God's Kingdom will take over the day-to-day rulership of this earth, and the result will be an end to man-made class distinctions, along with all other things that have caused suffering through the ages. Then, in a real sense, 'the meek will inherit the earth.' (Psalm 37:11) All reasons for boasting about one's supposed superiority will be gone. Never again will social classes be allowed to divide the worldwide brotherhood of man.

Jesus was revolutionary, yes. I think Jesus would think that the person who said Jesus being a revolutionary is absurd is absurd. But of course some people know more than everybody else. I think Jesus was a revolutionary because he said sins of the heart and soul are greater than sins of the flesh. And you see what he said to the people who were going to stone that woman for adultry.

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)

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To me the story of Jesus and the women accused of adultery and the ones who by the old testement law were about to stone her to death speak the loudest on this point. All Jesus said to the "stoners" was: "He who is without sin cast the first stone". As humans, esp. humans of faith, have a conscience, Jesus didn't need to give a lengthly exhortation he just presented that reality to them and they all dropped thier rocks and walked away. To the "adulteress" he simply said: "Daughter, where are your accuser?" to which she replied: "none Lord", to which he replied: "neither do I, go and sin no more", the "sin" part meaning if you continue on this path it could result in great harm to you, even death, go in another direction,~ all this outside the horns and hoofs and gargoils and fiery brimstone so prevelent in the dark ages and even today. We as modern Christians would do well to follow Jesus' example, we after all use his name in describing ourselves as "followers of Christ".

To me the story of Jesus and the women accused of adultery and the ones who by the old testement law were about to stone her to death speak the loudest on this point. All Jesus said to the "stoners" was: "He who is without sin cast the first stone". As humans, esp. humans of faith, have a conscience, Jesus didn't need to give a lengthly exhortation he just presented that reality to them and they all dropped thier rocks and walked away. To the "adulteress" he simply said: "Daughter, where are your accuser?" to which she replied: "none Lord", to which he replied: "neither do I, go and sin no more", the "sin" part meaning if you continue on this path it could result in great harm to you, even death, go in another direction,~ all this outside the horns and hoofs and gargoils and fiery brimstone so prevelent in the dark ages and even today. We as modern Christians would do well to follow Jesus' example, we after all use his name in describing ourselves as "followers of Christ".

To me the story of Jesus and the women accused of adultery and the ones who by the old testement law were about to stone her to death speak the loudest on this point. All Jesus said to the "stoners" was: "He who is without sin cast the first stone". As humans, esp. humans of faith, have a conscience, Jesus didn't need to give a lengthly exhortation he just presented that reality to them and they all dropped thier rocks and walked away. To the "adulteress" he simply said: "Daughter, where are your accuser?" to which she replied: "none Lord", to which he replied: "neither do I, go and sin no more", the "sin" part meaning if you continue on this path it could result in great harm to you, even death, go in another direction,~ all this outside the horns and hoofs and gargoils and fiery brimstone so prevelent in the dark ages and even today. We as modern Christians would do well to follow Jesus' example, we after all use his name in describing ourselves as "followers of Christ".

The notion of Jesus as a revolutionary is so absurd as to be laughable to say nothing of theologically contemptible.

Jesus on taxes: render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's

On Government: Essentially No government exists lest God permit it.

NO Jesus wasn't a revolutionary. He was in point of fact a reactionary. He came to restore man's previous relationship with God. This was his purpose and with his death on the cross and subsequent ressurection he acheived that goal.

JHC and Mickster --I suppose one can conclude from what you are saying that we are God, no other God besides us.

Right. That's why we understand everything and do everything right. That's why we love so much.

To Mickster:

Amen.

Jesus opened the door to personal identity, and potential!

In my comment of May 17, 2007 6:33 PM:

Where its says: "US oil consumption is neither restricted to the whole earth..."

it should say:

"US oil consumption is neither restricted to the UNITED STATES..."

Would the Jesus of Christianity have been a revolutionary today? William Tell would be a firebrand, I suppose, if Switzerland needed founding again. Paul Bunyan was settled into his occupation and probably wouldn't revolutionize anything. Zorro, on the other hand, was a true hero to the people.

To Daniel and Concerned:
My statement that the US consumes with 60% of the world's resources is inaccurate, but it's not clear by how much. Indeed, US based statistics attribute only 25% of the world oil consumption to the US. This however is not the whole story, for (1) US oil consumption is neither restricted to the whole earth, and (2) oil is not the only world resource.

US multinational corporations manufacture goods all over the world. Oil is consumed in manufacturing said goods as well as in their use, once sold. While the US derives enormous benefit from this, the statistics do not reflect the oil cost necessary to manufacture them, or to consume them once they are sold. Thus the 25% cited by others is an inaccurate figure. Indeed, the US derives enormous financial wealth from the manufacture and sale of goods throughout the world.

“The most comprehensive study of personal wealth ever undertaken also reports that the
richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total. In contrast, the bottom half of the world adult population owned barely 1% of global wealth.”

US Americans are 37% of that top 1% that control 40% of global assets.

UN Study --http://www.wider.unu.edu/research/2006-2007/2006-2007-1/wider-wdhw-launch-5-12-2006/wider-wdhw-press-release-5-12-2006.pdf

Natural resources of course are not limited to oil. There is land and water, and its contents. With the wealth built with the world’s oil, this top US heavy 1% is buying just that. The poor have nothing to buy anything with and they are being expropriated of their bodies as cheap labor, and of their earth and its contents, and the US is the most powerful engine driving this.

The corrupt infrastructure of the world financial system insures ‘capital’ grows exponentially increasingly in favour of the wealthiest, that is, of the US, while the rest increasingly have less and less. No matter how hard they work the US led capitalist system robs them of what is theirs.

When I was young, Jesus seemed like a God, now older, he seems like a punk.

Jesus was primarily an esoteric (secret teachings) Master. The world of organized religiosity has made him an exoteric (exterior/outer)Teacher, so thats why there is an emphasis on the mere social aspect. He said,"Love thy God with all thy heart and love thy neighbour as thyself." Most Christians do it the other way round and that is why there are not many God Realized Christians.

Say what you think about Jesus but, consider what was fundimental to His ministry.
Above all other things, Jesus exhorts us to live live's of love. First for God, and then for one another. Even to the extent of placing the interest of others, before our own.
How much better would our world, and the world we leave for our children and grandchildren be, if we followed His example?
Go ahead and make fun...I sleep good at night.

Jesus, crucified on a stick, cried out loud: "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Such was the father of Jesus - the Son of God.
For my part, I thank God I am an atheist. Poch Suzara

Just this moment received a letter from Jerry Falwell, post-marked "Oblivion." It contained one word:

"Oops."

Lets have more a world without faith, but filled with people who have power ethics and morals because its the right way to be. Lets take out the some of mumbo-jumbo of believership and instead take on morals and ehthics becuase they create a fair world of human communities and leave the diety/faith stuff in the trunk in the cellar. Loving our neighbors can be done with out all the decorattion and mysticism and outword directed needs to pleasesome external diety but instead just feel good that you are living a life that include charity, fairness, justice, etc. All easility attainable with the need for deities or super human people unless you have a comic book character you just need to to feel good aobut.

Lets have more a world without faith, but filled with people who have power ethics and morals because its the right way to be. Lets take out the some of mumbo-jumbo of believership and instead take on morals and ehthics becuase they create a fair world of human communities and leave the diety/faith stuff in the trunk in the cellar. Loving our neighbors can be done with out all the decorattion and mysticism and outword directed needs to pleasesome external diety but instead just feel good that you are living a life that include charity, fairness, justice, etc. All easility attainable with the need for deities or super human people unless you have a comic book character you just need to to feel good aobut.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

merchant of rome in the latino.
recently arrived from istanbul,sweating brow and dusty crusty feet,trying to amalgamate the muslim turkey into the christian euro,he gave his final christianity ameen-ization to the amalgamation,but the moneyterians who they praise the lord EURO/dollar and who they have the upper hand are not yet decided.
now he is in the latino wishing them a mery chrismas,with a sac full of loveing and peaceing ideologies.
when katrina hit n.orleans, santa c rice the ceasar agent told the devastated people to praise the lord jesus christ,but when she go to the mid-east she tell the mid-easterians to praise the lord democracey.
if you add the pictures toghether you come to this conclusion:
1-it is a money global scham,money is the new world lord and order.
2-christianity never was nor it will be a way of life ,it only limited to the boundry of the closed church ,the proof is right there secularism is the ideological system and the governemental system.and the world wide new order and road map.
3-the true god is totaly out of the world wide matrix.
4-the highest priest is misguided .
5-the cesar is also misguided by his own ideology and by christianity ideology if he ever pay it any attention or application.
what is left for mankind is the true creator god.

Religion is groupthink.
One believes what ones group believes.
Dont you get it?
Religion is really silly.
There is no supernatural universe,
except in the mind.
Its just imaginings and pipe dreams.
God is make believe.

Oops,

Make that: " to make Jesus competitive with the Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian gods and the "divine" Roman emperors.

And the referenced website is http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf (there is no period on the end)

Professor JD Crossan in his book, The Historical Jesus, has reviewed eight passages in John 6:. Only one passed attestation and stratum testing for being from the historical Jesus. Professor Crossan's results are also posted at http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf.

Conclusion: Be cautious citing John 6: as an historical document since most of passages of John 6: are embellishments made to make Jesus competive with the Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian gods and the "divine" Roman emperors.

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

5/14/07

Thinking Loud says- "Read John 6, the whole chapter. You'd see that the message Jesus delivered, stopped many from following him from that day forward. Doesn't sound like a populist social revolutionary to me. Sounds like a guy on a mission that wasn't willing to bend his principles to suit the people of the day."

Mikki's Q ? Do you or do we need to believe John 6 (or what the Bible says) ? Let us look into your comment "Sounds like a guy on a mission that was not willing to bend his principles to suit the people of the day"-

I must agree on that part.
I think 'Jesus' tried to preach Buddha's Ethics' plus 'Father' (as you may know, the calling of 'Father' or 'Allah' or 'God' is NOT in Buddha's usage- Buddha stressed upon the 'Principle' of Ethics in our way of living under 'God', as we say- In Buddha's time that would be enough to make us un-animal like).
As you may be aware 'Jesus' supposed to have arrived about 600-1,800 years after Buddha (although I think more like 600 ?), by that time, in West-Asia, I think, 'Jesus' had to deal with more animal like people because of the chaos (created by Alexander the Great's destruction of Pharisee (or Jew)-Persian way of living under 'Avistas'- Pharisee had compiled from "Vedas" of Sanskrit in a new script- written from right to left), like the chaos of today in Iraq (created by Bush). That may be one reason why 'Jesus' had to include 'Father' and 'not willing to bend his principles to suit the people of the day'

Any comment on this ?

Mikki

How absurd and bigoted. The Catholic church and their American parishes contribute more money to the poor and needy than every protestant group combined and assuredly more than non-believers. Furthermore, many of the poor ARE Catholic!

It is amusing to see people in the pages of Newsweek/Washpo who care so little for Jesus and who have contempt for Christians try to "explain" Jesus. Try knowing who he is and try loving Him instead of attacking those who believe in Him. Now there's a cover story for you media elites.

by calling jesus a revolutionary you are pre loading the question. jesus was the fulfillment of the promise of god to his people. isn't that enough? it will have to be!

daniel to anonymous. You cannot be serious anonymous. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the advanced nations--especially the U.S.--are responsible for all the starving people in the world etc.--as if we are causing the suffering. Sorry--we are not causing the suffering. Those peoples have been that way for centuries. We would rather the peoples you mention modernize. Islam dispensing with precisely Islam and getting some economic sense instead of selling oil all the time only would be a start. The advanced nations can only do so much. We cannot help people that insist on being tribal, excessively religious, self-pitying, etc. But why really am I bothering with you anonymous? According to you the U.S. cannot be sophisticated unless giving the world to everyone--eradicating all poverty or something. And if the U.S. cannot do that then the rest of the world according to you is sophisticated and capable of equal economics--and it must be that if the rest of the world is in poverty is must be due to the evil U.S. or something...Do I have your reasoning right? (If it must be called reason). What a joke. Honestly. What a joke.

Idéia boa, Roberto.
Editors: I think we might be ready for a new question......

Global Gas Pump prices worldwide

(Dollars per gallon as of Feb. 24)
Country Dollars per gallon
Netherlands $6.25
Norway $6.21
United Kingdom $5.94
Germany $5.87
Italy $5.72
France $5.56
South Korea $5.38
Japan $4.54
Australia $3.32
South Africa $3.24
Russia $2.38
Mexico $2.36
U.S. $2.23
Nigeria $1.85
China $1.93*
India (Delhi) $3.75*
Indonesia $1.67*
Vietnam $2.27*
Malaysia $1.93*
Bangladesh $2.42*
Singapore $4.09*
Iran $0.33*
Venezuela $0.12*


* as of March 24
Source: Reuters • Print this

I believe petrol in the UK is significantly higher than $3/gallon i.e. if it were $3/gallon, the Brits also would be driving a lot more SUVs.

U.S. uses 60% of worlds resources - What a hoot. Use your brain for a second.

Imagine how fat the US would have to be if 5% of the worlds population consumed 60% of the food. Just not possible.

However, the latest stat I heard on energy consumption was the US used 25% of the worlds energy. Very believable. If you've ever travelled outside the US, you know the US has the most cars per capita, the biggest cars, and drives them aimlessly around. The same with houses, cities, farms, etc...
There is nothing energy efficient about US society.

So if 5% of earth population uses 25% of the energy, that means on average we use 6 times as much energy as the average of the rest of the world. Kinda makes you stop and think.

I spent a year in the UK in 2004. I saw maybe 1 or 2 SUV's a day. Most people drive tiny cars, or old cars. Today, in the US, 8 out of 10 of my neighbors have at least 1 SUV. Many have 2, and several have a car for the kid.

And we wonder why gas is $3/gallon. What glorious idiots we are in the US..

Jesus - Social revolutionary? Not even close.

Didn't his followers try to crown him as king, and he rejected it?

Didn't he say his kingdom was not part of this world?

Didn't satan offer him all the kingdoms of the earth for one act of worship?

Wasn't his purpose to declare his fathers name and teachings?

He did a few miricles, fed a few people and pointed to a solution to the problems of the world - his fathers kingdom. He reached out to ones who were scum to the ruling parties in Israel at the time. He roundly criticized and showed the ignorance of the Jewish religious leaders of his time. But he didn't try to overthrow the rulers and replace them. He always pointed to his fathers kingdom.

Here's a tip - If you want to know what sort of person Jesus was, read the bible. Don't debate others regarding what could'a, should'a, would'a.. Just read the bible. And read a modern complete translation, not the KJ or one of the pseudo "shorthand" bibles.

Read John 6, the whole chapter. You'd see that the message Jesus delivered, stopped many from following him from that day forward. Doesn't sound like a populist social revolutionary to me. Sounds like a guy on a mission that wasn't willing to bend his principles to suit the people of the day.

How refreshing and how different from almost all religions today.

the renaisance.
QURAN V18 S109.
say,(o mohumad to mankind),if the sea were ink for writing the words of my lord ,surely ,the sea would be exhausted before the words of my lord would be finished ,even if we brought another sea like it for its aid.
say (o mohamed )i am only a man like you .it has been revealed to me that your ilah(god)is one ilah(god)so whoever hopes for the meeting with his lord ,let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his lord.

Please publish references that show the USA uses 60% of the world's resources.

Daniel,

I already explained to you what I meant in the forum on "Is Islam Violent?". Yet in said forum, some Daniel, perhaps you, sounds like you, claimed that people outside the US and Europe did not have the sophistication to manage the world's resources.

I responded that 100 thousand people die daily from starvation in a world economy controlled by the US and Europe, and asked if that is what you meant by sophistication.

You did not respond then. Perhaps you will now. The ball is in your court Daniel. Where are you going to send it to? On an exploratory mission to Andromeda with OUR resources?

Life first, Daniel, always first.

To anonymous from daniel. The U.S. 5 percent of the world population eating up 60 percent of the resources? Supposing this is correct is this why Muslims are angry with the West? I ask this because you responded to Concerned after Islam comments by him. Furthermore, Islam or any other nation, political order, religion, etc. has a better way? What is this better way anonymous? Political philosophy please. Tell me anonymous, what other people in the world COULD eat up as much resources as America. Perhaps China, Europe, the most advanced nations in general. You mean the nations, peoples, etc. that cannot get to an economic state to eat up resources are the good people and their way is the way to go? You mean Islamic civilization is good subordinating the individual to Islam and utterly deficient as to economic thinking (or any other thinking for that matter) and depending on oil which Westerners pointed out to them? First the world should be as capable as the U.S. then we can argue about distribution and maintenance of resources. Or do you mean the distribution and maintanence of resources should be put into the hands of civilizations, peoples, religions which are now deficient in economy? What exactly do you mean anonymous?

Concerned: You write: "And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads."

Not only that you can live in a country that eats up 60% of the world's resources with 5% of the world population...and a country that has a whole catalog of nukes in case anybody doesn´t like it.

That is not what you mean, right?

A repeat procedure on cleaning up the Koran and Islam:

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

its ad or bc, and nothing else. why do people think that they can change the current calendar to fit their anti christian feelings. dont like this way of telling time - they pick a different one, but dont try to rename mine.

How silly to fret about what Jesus taught. He was thinking in terms 2000 years ago, nothing relevant today. Anyway he was killed as a rebel vs. Rome. He has nothing to say to us. His followers have even less to say to us.

It would be very difficult to judge whether Jesus was a truly revolutionary since we have only the four gospels to go by and these were written at least 70 years after his time. None of the historians living at that time mentioned him except as heresay years later. It is unfortunate that Josephus who lived very close to that time doesn't mention Jesus either (except as an addition suspected to have been done by Eusabius
who believed in lying for the cause)

It would be very difficult to judge whether Jesus was a truly revolutionary since we have only the four gospels to go by and these were written at least 70 years after his time. None of the historians living at that time mentioned him except as heresay years later. It is unfortunate that Josephus who lived very close to that time doesn't mention Jesus either (except as an addition suspected to have been done by Eusabius
the who believed in lying for the cause)

liberation of mind.
all messengers of allmighty creator god,came to liberate mankind from the earthly bondage of this life.
abraham was appointed to an era where people were mathematicians and stars readers ,they were advanced in earthly knoweldge but ignorant of the creator of the world.they were stars worshipers ,they took the stars for god,abraham told them to worship the creator god of the stars and others,they said we so advanced ,so knoweldgeable,abraham told them ,the sun rise from the east ,make it rise from the west if you so truthfull.
jesus son of marry was appointed to an era where people were advanced in medicene,jesus (by the leave of ALLAH)used to heal leprosy,rub the face of the blind to make him see,rise the dead body to life again only by the leave of ALLAH.the miracle .that jesus came from chaste virgin marry is manifest sign to mankind ,to glorify none but ALLAH the creator lord of all existance.
not knowing your creator god is the most advanced ignorance in this world ,those who carry knoweldge ,those who read and write and their knowldge doesnot lead them to know their creator god are exactly like an ass who carry a book ,no insult to the ass,the ass is doing a better job.
liberation of mind need ,reading ,reflection and guidance of the creator lord.
the honorable meesengers of ALLAH to mankind, the majority of them donot read nor write,but guess who taught them ?,the allmighty allknowing allmerciful creator sustainer maintainer guider of this universe.
life is a huge open book for those who read and write and those who donot read and write.you have in this life ,people who so advanced in knowldge,but they never made it to no school,on the other side you have people who made it advancely in famous shools but they are the most ignorant heads in the world.
use your head as well as the knoweldge that your head carry stop making an ass of your self.

There is only one place in the NT that suggests Jesus could read i.e. Luke 4:16. This passage is not attested to in any other NT passage or in any other related document making it a later addition or poor translation as per most NT scholars' analyses.

See also See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Concerned: In your first point on this forum you write: "Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations..."

Antonio Gramsci reminded someone one time that it was an illiterate who discovered fire.

In any case, Jesus is quoted as reading from the scrolls at the temple. It is quite likely that he was indeed literate.

What is literacy, anyhow? What matters most? Words, the ideas behind the words, or the spirit behind the ideas?

The reality of contemporary religions:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - (as per a Hindu web site)"Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’".

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

"Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life (Alexandra David-Neel, Buddhism: fts Doctrines and fts Methods, New York: St. Martids Press, 1977, p. 15). "

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be very aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

To repeat an observation made by MOMMADONA:

"After reading the Quran for the first time, I had this bizarre vision....

I saw Muhammed sitting in a room, whispering these words to another man, "I need a drink of water". Then THAT man whispered words to the next person...and so on and so on....out the door, down the street, up the hill.....

the person sitting on top of the hill was scribbling furiously. He jumps up and yells:
"ALLAH NEEDS TO DRINK THE OCEAN FOR US TO SURVIVE!"

It's an old game, called "Gossip"".

As a retired catholic, I must say that the best thing The Church has done lately is to get rid of the theological justification of 'Limbo'. All the stuff about this hang up with modern science/biology will have to go the same way, I'm afraid. Whether it comes in the form of birth control, abortion or celibacy, The Church and its theological philosophers need a reality check . One thing that is cetain as to what we remember about Christ....He was RELEVANT.

At one point, Jesus was offered ruler ship over every kingdom in the world, but he turned the offer down. How non-revolutionary.

If Jesus had been a revolutionary (social or any other type), he would have been welcomed by Pharisees. The 1st century Jews had been taught to expect a Messiah that was going to put those Romans in their place and prove, once and for all time, that Jews were number 1. Instead, all they got was this unkempt, uneducated, unemployed, homeless person who talked about giving Caesar's things to Caesar. So they killed him for it. I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that Hollywood has consistently put into their movies about Jesus are the sizes of the crowds. Usually, the crowds are over-sized by at least 75 per cent. Face it, folks, the main reason Jesus drew crowds was not his message, it was the fact that if you got close enough, he would fix what ailed you, and, rumor had it, he put on a pretty good magic show.

The Pope can go to Brazil, or wherever, and strut about in his funny get up and mumble stuff, but nothing of any substance will come from it. Jesus message wasn't to try to change the ruling class, or the way things were done, or to adopt a new political process. He quite plainly stated that everything we see in this world, what it says is important, what it sees as power, what it says should be done and how to do it, whatever this world says about anything, is a lie, it is upside down and backwards from the truth. Jesus didn't recommend changing anything in the world because he said that that would be a useless thing to do, something about letting the dead bury the dead. Instead, he tried to teach us to change the only thing we can change: ourselves.

Gosh, how many philosophical statements do you suppose that the WP has actively sought from uneducated, unemployed, homeless people? What a contrast their opinions would probably be, don'tcha think?
How sad.

the revolution of jesus son of marry.
1-jesus son of marry(not the myth called son of god)is one of the bonded series of divine messengers to mankind.
2-jesus son of marry is from the lineage of isreal son of abraaham,may ALLAH exalt their names till the last day,they came to liberate the heart of mankind.jesus is not jew nor christian.
3-jesus was appointed to the sons of isreal as divine messenger to liberate mankind from the bondage of this world to the freedom of the creator allmighty of this world.,life and death of mankind is in the hands of the creator lord whether they like it or not all mankind is in the bondage of the creator allmighty.
4-to the revolution of jesus, sons of isreal responded as the following :
1-those who they accepted his messeage .
2-those who they took jesus as god ,contradicting and nullyfying the core and essence of the whole messeage,none but adding more bondage to their earthly bondage ,the man made innovation called christianity .
5-those who they seeking the truth about jesus, those who they looking for liberation ,let them come out of the 2000+ dusty cave of christianity.
6-the last divine revelation to mankind QURAN contain all the truth about jesus and the long history of the sons of isreal.
7-those who they are on mad love (for so love the world,he gave up his begoten son)are seriously mis-taken.
8-those who they are on mad reason (god was not proved yet)are highly encouraged to use their bi-bull (science and logic)to discover and explor the serious manifest signs of the creator god around.

I had been a christian my entire life, until recently. What I don't understand is how the scripture has turn from doctrine that directs a person in their journey through life. I've always known christianity to be a guide to how one is to live a wholesome life of goodness.

This whole 'Social Revolution' idea is an aweful distortion of something that had been good.

Jesus was a Rabbi who wanted to reform Judaism. He also took steps to present himself as the Messiah of the Old Testament; either he believed he really was or he thought it would bring him clout for his intended reforms. I don't think Joshua ben Joseph cared a twig about any part of the Roman Empire but his own people. So, yes, he was a social revolutionary, but he thought in narrow terms. All that came later was the work of others, namely Paul.

I am shocked that there are actual people that follow the teachings of Jesus that can hold their heads high with pride.

Is this an effort in how to justify all the war, torture, and refusal to help the needy?

Here are some of the following social issues that many of the influencial christian leaders have poisoned the followers of their religion:

- As you read this there are innocent men, women, and children being tortured in the most brutal ways known to mankind. *see Ghosts of Abu Ghraib (documentary by HBO)

- The USA has grown from a country that thought it unthinkable to denie children healthcare. This week there have been commercials run asking people to call their congressional reps. to support such legislation, as if it never were.

- The invasion of Iraq is still driving forward with the support of the christians - other than the desire for the natural resources of that region (btw. just because the US oil companies desire their oil, it doesn't mean we as americans are obligated to fight for it in the name of 'National Interests')... there isn't a valid reason to be in Iraq. The popular national interest is to get out of the mess the christians and republicans have gotten us into.

- Hurricane season appears to rearing it's ugly head an additional month early, a whole entire town in Kansas has been wiped off the face of the planet by a mega tornado, fires are raging out of control worse than ever... yet, the christian leadership finds no guilt in lambasting those concerned issues such as global warming.

- The hate breed within the christian leadership, towards fair labor conditions, responsible industrial practices, and the financially disadvantaged.

-----------------

I used to be christian, but the idea of supporting a group that so vigorously attacks society for corporate and political gain disgusts me.

In a completely different sense, I think he was a radical, and a social rebel for his times. His non-violent beliefs cost him his life, and an untold amount of misery, and grief.

If he were to reappear today, they would nail him to a cross all over again. It would just depend on which political party got to him first, or maybe they would actually just form a Bi-Partisan Committe to have him put on trial. Think about it.
This man preached about individual responsibiltiy, morals, rules, a code of conduct, honesty, etc... he would not last long today at all. I hope for his sake that he does not come back. First of they would start the smear campaign agaisnt him. That he was homophobic, a sexist, a racist, that he was for abusing children, and anti-government, and who is this guy anyway to tell us that we need to follow God rules, our motto is "if it feels good then do it!", etc... Yep! That boy would be in deep voodoo if he showed up here today talking like that.

In a completely different sense, I think he was a radical, and a social rebel for his times. His non-violent beliefs cost him his life, and an untold amount of misery, and grief.

If he were to reappear today, they would nail him to a cross all over again. It would just depend on which political party got to him first, or maybe they would actually just form a Bi-Partisan Committe to have him put on trial. Think about it.
This man preached about individual responsibiltiy, morals, rules, a code of conduct, honesty, etc... he would not last long today at all. I hope for his sake that he does not come back. First of they would start the smear campaign agaisnt him. That he was homophobic, a sexist, a racist, that he was for abusing children, and anti-government, and who is this guy anyway to tell us that we need to follow God rules, our motto is "if it feels good then do it!", etc... Yep! That boy would be in deep voodoo if he showed up here today talking like that.

I am a Nigerian living in São Paulo Brazil. Yesterday as I was driving home from my office, I drove past the visiting Pope Benedict XVI's convoy as he was leaving Government House São Paulo, after visiting President Lula and Governor Jose Serra.
What I saw convinced me that we are not only talking about a spiritual leader, but also a skilled diplomat, politician and social revolutionary.
Yes, Jesus was all these too. He was even a tax expert. He knew where to get his tax money (from the mouth of a fish in the sea) and who to pay it to, and why. His interpersonal skills were excellent (please corporate Executives borrow a leaf rom Him). He knew He was charismatic, and knew when and how to work the 'press' then. Micheal Jackson would have had less damage if he had learned from Him. So, Jesus is all that a human being is, but he never sinned. He came dowm to teach us how a human being should behave and live. Mind you, He never resorted to His divine powers to solve his human needs.He faced them head-on.
For God's sake, read the Holy Bible, and you will discover that Job, David, Abraham, Solomon were not only rich(today's millionaires), but also excellent military strategists. Solomon is not only a poet, he has sound knowledge of botany and zoology. Moses was so skilled in architecture, algebra, calculus and all ancient Egyptian knowledge, that he used them to design and carry out all that God ordered him to do.
So, every christian should be the prefection of God in Christ Jesus, and be skilled in all areas of exsitence. man is a political animal and we are created in God's image. So revolution, politics, wealth etc should be part of the equation. right? so, the Pope is a social revolutionary
Temple Dimkpa Ineh
São Paulo
Brazil

Having search for years for a religion that I could believe in and accept, I found the