Sadly, reports of such evil acts have become all too common in our time. Sadder still, these reports are often eclipsed by accounts of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and terrorism. “At its worst, this has been Satan’s century,” said an editorial published in 1995. “In no previous age have people shown so great an aptitude, and appetite, for killing millions of other people for reasons of race, religion or class.”
At the same time, humans are polluting the air, fouling the earth, depleting its resources, and driving countless species toward extinction. Can mankind overcome all these evils and make the world a better, safer place? Or would attempting to do so be like trying to sweep back the tide with a broom? Said a professor who has written extensively on the subject of evil: “I have had a very strong need to make a difference in the world, to improve the world. But the world is not visibly improving.”
To some extent, this ever-deteriorating situation can be attributed to human imperfection. (Romans 3:23) Still, the scale of evil, its ubiquity, and its relentlessness seem out of proportion to the malice that can be attributed to humans alone. Is it possible that mankind is being manipulated by an unseen but powerful and sinister force? If so, what is it, and how can we protect ourselves?
In the first century, many of the Jews were awaiting the arrival of the promised Messiah. (John 6:14) When Jesus came on the scene, he brought comfort and enlightenment. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, tamed the elements, even raised the dead. (Matthew 8:26; 14:14-21; 15:30, 31; Mark 5:38-43) He also spoke the sayings of Jehovah and held out the promise of everlasting life. (John 3:34) By what he said and did, Jesus fully demonstrated that he was the Messiah, the one to liberate mankind from sin and all its evil consequences.
Logically, the Jewish religious leaders should have been the first to welcome Jesus, listen to him, and joyfully accept his direction. Yet, they did not. Instead, they hated him, persecuted him, and conspired to kill him.—Mark 14:1; 15:1-3, 10-15.
Jesus rightly condemned those reprehensible men. (Matthew 23:33-35) However, he recognized that there was someone else who must share the blame for the evil in their hearts. He said to them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44) Though Jesus acknowledged that humans are capable of wicked acts, he pointed to the very source of evil—Satan the Devil
The extent of Satan’s evil influence is revealed at 1 John 5:19, which states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” The Devil is maneuvering mankind into a tempest of increasing woes. In fact, he is more determined than ever to do harm. Why? Because he and the demons were evicted from heaven after God’s Kingdom was established in 1914. Regarding this eviction, the Bible foretold: “Woe for the earth . . . , because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:7-12)
Satan wields his influence over mankind today primarily by promoting a spirit that governs the way that people think and act. Accordingly, Ephesians 2:2 calls the Devil “the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit [or, dominant attitude] that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” Instead of encouraging godly fear and goodness, this demonic “air” breeds rebellion against God and his standards. Satan and his demons thus promote and aggravate the evil perpetrated by humans.
For good reason, the wise man Solomon admonished: “More than all else that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart, for out of it are the sources of life.” (Proverbs 4:23)
Right hearted ones need to shield their hearts from the love of violence, for the Devil knows that “anyone loving violence [Jehovah] certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5) Satan does not have to turn you into a bloodthirsty villain to make you an enemy of God; he simply needs to nurture within you a love of violence. It is no coincidence that violence, often with occult themes, saturates the popular media.
The forces of evil can appear formidable. The Bible points out that those striving to please God “have a wrestling . . . against the wicked spirit forces,” in addition to a struggle with their own imperfect flesh. To win the struggle and to have God’s favor, we need to take advantage of the many provisions from God.—Ephesians 6:12; Romans 7:21-25.
These provisions include God’s holy spirit, the most powerful force in the universe. The apostle Paul wrote to first-century Christians: “We received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God.” (1 Corinthians 2:12) Those led by God’s spirit grow to love what God loves and hate what he hates. (Amos 5:15) One can receive holy spirit primarily through prayer, Bible study—the Bible itself being a product of holy spirit—and wholesome association with those who truly love God.—Luke 11:13; 2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 10:24, 25.
By taking advantage of these divine provisions, one can make a start in putting on “the complete suit of armor from God,” the only sure protection against “the machinations of the Devil.” (Ephesians 6:11-18) Making full use of these provisions is more urgent now than ever before.
If you yearn for an end to evil you can take comfort in the promises contained in the Bible. No other book exposes the very author of evil, Satan, and no other book shows how he and all his wicked works will finally be eradicated. Take in accurate knowledge of the Bible so as to protect yourself against Satan’s evil influences now and to secure the hope of living in a world free from evil.—Psalm 37:9, 10.
I'm a recent convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My faith views the horrible incident as an expression of one’s own free agency. Heavenly Father does not have any control over our conscience and free will in any way what so ever. He has the power to influence us for the better through The Holy Spirit. However, Satan also has the power to influence us through the flesh. It’s ultimately up to the individual to make the choice by which he will be judge on the Last Day.
On 23 April 2003 I was given a new lease on life. I was hit by a car and could have been killed instantly as many thousands are. I suffered internal head injury and lost my short term memory for about twenty four hours (I didn't know where I lived, gave a different phone number as contact, didn't remember any details of my life of the past year etc). I ended up with a torn knee ligament. But eight weeks later I was back to normal, and my knee recovered fully with physiotherapy in only twelve weeks. All I have in memory of that near death experience is a small superficial scar on my right knee, one that I could have got by bruising it by scraping it against something rough. Even worse than death would have been to end up with physical and/or mental disability, and/or ugly scars which would have done little for my self confidence as a woman etc.
Why did God spare my life? Why didn't I die like thousands do in similar situations? I don't know. All I know is that I am alive by a sheer miracle. I thank God and accept the gift of a new lease on life. It is a mystery and I do not seek the answers. But it reminded me that death could come at any time, unannounced and I need to be prepared.
Reflecting about that accident today, reminds of me of the need to keep death in mind as I live my life - every single day. Not as a morbid preoccupation, but as a way to bring life into the right perspective, to reassess my priorities. In the face of death, life takes on a new meaning. Priorities begin to shift, and things that once seemed so important fade into insignificance. Things long neglected take on a new urgency. The reason to live becomes stronger and the reason becomes more purposeful. Rearranging the priorities of life accordingly saves energy and time.
This moment is all I have. Who knows what may happen in the next? I would like death to be a mere passing on to another level of consciousness, effortlessly, like opening a door to another room, a room much better than the one I am in. Yes, and I live in the hope of meeting my God and all the loved ones who have gone before me and all who will come after me. Yes, I long to live in the world where there are no tears and no parting.
Right up front, let's be clear. God did not will what happened yesterday at Virginia Tech. Period.
As a pastor, I have said, when similar things happen, that for some mysterious, divine, impossible-to-understand reason, God "allowed" it to happen. So, why do I get such a sour taste in my mouth when I say those words? If God is the sort who "allowa" people to be slaughtered in what most assume to be a very safe, and normally serene, environment, then I wonder if I want to continue to believe in such a God.
Then, I look at the culture in which I live. A culture which idolizes guns and violence. A culture which puts anger up on a pedastal and doesn't dare knock it off. A culture which gives assent to the notion that we can carry around our grudges as long as we want, and act on them whenever, wherever we want. A culture in which every form of media is obsessed with death, with killing, with brutality. (And don't think that the church is free of such a culture, of such dark emotions. Demonization and vilification of those who disagree with us is standard practice.)
And by my watching such movies, and reading such books, and playing such video games I acquiesce to this culture. And by my silence, I encourage the culture to continue on this now-beyond-reckless course. By my silence, I allow these things to take place.
So, maybe it is the other way around. Maybe God wonders about continuing to believe in me, about believing in us, about believing in those who have been created in the divine image.
Yet, the evidence is there that even if this is
what God is wondering, God chooses to be involved with us. We see it in the flood of helpers who are at the campus today, and tomorrow, and beyond - the grief counselors, the therapists, the religious leaders, the doctors, the nurses - to bring healing and hope to a devastated community. And long after the anchors, and the TV crews, and the reporters have packed up their equipment and gone after the next story, they will still be there.
I do not believe that what happened at Virginia Tech was God's will. But I do believe that God wills healing, wholeness, and new life for all those shattered by this tragedy. I do believe
God wills that the helpers will never, ever have
to respond to another crisis like this.
And I do believe God wills that the silence stops.
God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.
God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.
Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.
My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:
1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.
2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.
3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.
4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.
The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.
Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?
My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.
Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.
Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?
Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.
Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.
My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:
1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.
2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.
3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.
4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.
The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.
Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?
My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.
Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.
Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?
Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.
Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.
Well, we have now been told that Cho had severe mental illness. So I have copied and pasted my post from earlier as it got buried.
And to answer the question above about my faith. I don't have one. So I use common sense, reason and rationality. Hense forth I don't blame these tragedies on sin. My rationality says gun control is not the answer either. So it only stands to reason anyone that commits such horrendous acts is mentally unfit.
My origianl post follows:
These tragedies upset us, scare us and we want answers to how this could happen. But what people really want are quick fixes. Prayer. Gun control. More security measures taken in the schools and public buildings.
These tragedies scream out MENTAL ILLNESS, but we chalk it off to gun control and metal detectors and then pray that this does not happen again and then go about our lives. They are band-aid fixes for a larger problem which is of course mental illness.
The stigmatization of mental illness many times prevents people to seek and accept help. Many of these illness can be successfully controlled with proper medication and therapy. Therapy can help you to understand your illness, to accept it, deal with it and learn how to recognize when you are not doing so well and may need to make some medication changes. Therapy can help you to learn how to interact with people better and more often. Get you out of that loner and isolation mode. Allow you to find people you can trust and hope that they can and will recognize when you may not be doing so well when you yourself may not be able to recognize it right away.
And even if a person does know they need help, many times they cannot afford the therapy and medication that is needed. Even with health care, many of the medications are still very expensive.
I personally take three different medications. As for the cost with health care and a prescription plan it cost me 180.00 a month at best. Without either it would be close to 1000.00 a month. As far as the stigmatization of those two words *mental illness*, there is no price tag for that.
We need more public awareness, understanding, acceptance and education for mental illness. We need more accessability to mental health care and its options. The drug companies have to stop charging 5.00 a pill for something that probably costs them 5 cents to manufacture. At least for low income, no health insurance patients.
All of us have to stop looking for the quick fixes and take the time and trouble to address the larger problem or we are doomed to see it repeat itself over and over again as it has been doing.
Fall back on your faith, pray all you need to but please, please insist that we as a society address the larger issue. Please, for all of our sakes.
Just to verify something. The earliest know copies of the NT were 125 a.d. as a collection even though the original writings were shown to be within 5 years of Christ's death. There were 24,000 copies in all by 125 a.d. All in comparison their marginal rate of error was 99.9% and only errors consisting of minor annotations which did not render the message in any way. In comparison the closest amount of copies were by Homer (Iliad) at 648 with a greater amount of error between them all. I did a little research on that awhile ago. I thought it not only very interesting but also points to how reliable the Bible really is. No other ancient writings were even close to accuracy and length of time in between events (to assume legend). Take care. Just thought I would share what I found.
Following every disaster (Virginia Tech, 9/11, etc.) come the inevitable stories of individuals who would have been at the scene of the tragedy, but were spared by a fortuitously late train, a missed alarm clock, sixth sense, or the like. It seems odd to me that such individuals, and their families, routinely praise the God that was looking out for them, without damning that same God for failing those who died, or suffered.
I also notice that in these circumstances, when the question "how could God allow this" is posed, God is given a complete pass on the premise that the tragedy was due entirely to the gift of free will -- apparently something with which even an omnipotent God cannot interfere.
You can hardly turn a page of the bible without finding episodes in which God works miracles to resolve fairly modest grievances. One wonders why this same God hasn’t pulled out this bag of tricks in the face of the holocaust, the Virginia Tech shootings, 9/11, (or any of a host of other hideous circumstances)?
Even if you believe that an omnipotent God couldn’t have interfered with the free will of the shooter, why would anyone be content to believe that an omnipotent God (who created the universe, parted the waters, turned staffs into snakes and burned magic bushes) couldn’t have simply made the gun jam?
In 2005, four young Mounties were ambushed and killed by a police-hating gunman. The youngest, Peter Schiemann, son of a pastor, was the first to be laid to rest. The following snippet from a Canadian website contains a quote spoken by his father, Rev. Don Schiemann.
"It goes to what theologians call "the problem of evil." How can an all-powerful, all-loving God allow such a thing to happen? For believers like Don Schiemann, a Lutheran minister from Stony Plain, Alta., and father of 25-year-old Peter Schiemann, the youngest of the four slain RCMP officers, there is an answer. "God grants to people free will," he said just two days after the fatal shootings, "and with free will, some people choose to do great evil."" (http://tinyurl.com/22v97p and others)
Sorry need to correct myself-- the dates of the earliest known copies of the documents is the shortest with the NT documents and several hundred or thousand of years for other major ancient works.. the NT documents are also the most numerous (5000+) compared with <10 copies for things like Ceasar Gallic wars, etc.
To the question about 40-50 year timelag between the writing of the New Testament gospels and the time of Christs life: 40-50 years is a very SHORT length of time for historical writings. The veracity of other writings which many take for granted were actually written 1000+ years after the events. check out one quick link for starters:
BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????
I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....
Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murdering another is wrong" ...without an eternal standard????
Please respond in "real" English how your faith tradition responds
BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????
I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....
Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murder another is wrong" without an eternal standard????
Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember the sixties when we dumped people out of mental institutions to become the homeless people sleeping on grates in the cities, and dying of exposure in a few years. The idea was that mistakes were made, and some were institutionalized who should not be. But we now let people who are in the deepest mental troubles continue to stay in the community, and even sell them military grade weapons. The caring community back then grew out of the faith communities of the time. It had its problems with busy bodies, and was too constricting in some ways, but it did take care of the children better than we do now. In the Gospel according to Matthew Jesus says:
‘When did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
‘Assuredly, I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these
My brethren, you did it to Me.’
It is time to return to caring for the hurt, the damaged, the needy, the sick, and those who face trials alone. We can't create a perfect world but we are called to make it better when we can. Maybe nothing anyone could have done would have stopped Cho, but maybe people weren't even allowed to try, either.
I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.
One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.
It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”
Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.
What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.
It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.
I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.
One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.
It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”
Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.
What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.
It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.
The recent tragedy at Virginia Tech University has
provoked all the usual responses: Why did this happen?
Why wasn't security on that campus better? Who's gonna
be responsible for this? Why weren't the people who
were killed warned ahead of time? How could someone do
such a thing? How could someone be so evil? Why is the
world so crazy? Why wasn't Jesus name spoken at the
Public Memorial?
The same as it ever was.(ref: Talking Heads, "Same as
it Ever Was") The same old tired questions we ask in
the face of things we do not understand. Similar,
tired reactivity to things we do not want to believe,
we ourselves, are connected to. The same news outlets
saying in their unending liturgy of doom, "the world
is gone to Hell in a hand basket."
Baloney on all that nonsense. The wrong questions are
being asked. The vision for how to move forward is too
restricted by poor leadership. Poor leadership in
every corner of our common life as sojourners in this
land.
What other questions might be asked? I don't know
exactly. But, I'm willing to look deeper. Are you?
What might have made a difference in this situation?
What was this guy so angry with? Was anybody
listening? Was anybody staying connected with this
child of God during his descent into sin, evil and
ultimately, Hell on Earth?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But, I am
willing to look at how we might reorient ourselves and
our culture on how to respond next time. From the
beginning, and human history reveals, that we should
all realize, there will be a next ONE. We might think
about responding to the next ONE rather, than staying
completely fixated on what went wrong with the last
ONE? Maybe?
Holy and gracious Father: In your infinite love you
made us for yourself; and, when we had fallen into sin
and become subject to evil, you, in your mercy, sent
Jesus Christ, your only and eternal Son, to to share
our human nature, to live and die as one of us, to
reconcile us to you, the God and Father of all(ref:
BCP, p. 362).
I don't have much stamina for the question, "How could
someone be so evil?" That implies that "one of us"
could do no such a thing. The beginning of the next
ONE lies in that neurotic notion.
We all have the capacity to do evil. There is a
trembling terror in every human heart. How we respond
to that reality is the determining point. This is
place in the geography of our common life where we
each choose between acting in a holy way, or, in an
evil way. This is where we choose in each moment how
to respond to our perceptions of the world as we move
through it. We can move through it with grace or in
fear. The graceful approach has to be practiced in
order to transform the terrors into trusting faith.
The fearful practice an approach which belives the
inner terror and believes the world is a very
dangerous place. This is the place where some choose
to repay evil with evil.
What might the faithful of God hope to, in their
graceful practices, offer to those who get themselves
backed into corners of darkness? How can we help those
in darkness see Light. Could we tell them that maybe
some of their perceptions are right? The world does
have sufficient evil lurking about that the assessment
of, "their is danger around every corner;" and,
"people are against me," is not totally insane. Could
we encourage people feeling burdened and overwhelmed
to be brave in their desire to fight the status quo.
They really are just want things to be different than
they are now. Maybe encouraging the ONE who is beaten
down to resist the system oppressing them and crushing
them, is more helpful than telling the One to "fix
yourself." We could encourage them and offer join
them, and with them, not accept the way things are,
because the way things are isn't good enough
anymore.(ref: Nichole Nordeman, Brave)
When you are backed into your corner, feeling
defeated, alone and wounded and hopeless, did someone
telling you what you should do, or, ought to do, help
much? When you are frightened and overwhelmed; when
your soul is wrapped around an axle which is making
the wrapping tighter with every turn of the spin
cycle; how easy is it for you to see Light. I usually
need someone to help me unwrap from the axle of
hopelessness.
Is the world really so dark and dangerous? Do we live
in place that the only way to change things is to back
into a corner and make a big mess of ourselves. Or, is
it so bad in this place that our best choice is to
back into the corner until we explode out into the
world, making a mess everyone else has to deal with,
when we've had enough.
The world is a mess. Always was. I don't know about
you, but, I think we live in world filled with beauty
and hope and glory. At the same time, I, too, see evil
amongst us every day, as well. The system oppresses
every one of us. No matter where we try to position
ourselves the system opresses. I am hopeful you, too,
choose not to retreat to dark alcoves and narrow
corners of perception. Those alcoves seem very crowded
these days. Too crowded for me anyway.
Next time you mosey past one of those moments of evil;
next time you peer into that darkness and recognize a
precious soul of God's making, with still enough Light
to reflect Light out to you - could you say, to the
ONE in there, "Hello, in there"(ref: John Prine "Hello
In There"). Next time you recognize there is a soul in
there crying out; "I love you, I'm not gonna crack, I
kill you, I'm not gonna crack" (ref: Nirvana, Kurt
Cobain, "Lithium"); could you say, "Yes the system is
taking all our hopes and dreams and making them stones
around our neck; but, "We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do. We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do"(ref: Coldplay, "Don't Panic").
The ONE in there may crack like Judah/Judas did when
all hope seemed lost. Or, like that precious child/man
of God did last Monday. Or, like Kurt did that lonely
afternoon. Or, like people who move to all sorts of
extreme points of view 'cause, we all trapped in there
at some point in an oppressive system. We can each
choose how to respond to it and how to help those
trapped in it.
The fuel for energizing our resistance to the
oppression is all around us. The glory of God is all
around us. It is in us, always. It is there if we
choose to engage it and be changed into it. It is in
the music that lifts our spirit filled souls. It is in
the prayers we offer to a gracious God in a
celebration/meal in which we are fed even more fuel
for the journey towards hope. It is in the scripture
we believe shows the way to salvation; especially when
we use it to discern His will and not to convince the
other-ONE we know His will.
My perception, from this point of view, is that the
world is not as tough as I/WE generally want to make
it. For me the world is growing less complex. It is my
recognition that we all need ask for the Glory to be
more and more revealed, and, to ask the Creator to
more and more saturate Glory into each one us.
In the geography of that landscape, all we really need
to do is to be better Jews (A people chosen to love
God and to live in Covenant with God in order that the
whole of creation might be blessed.) Live lives which
reflect we know and love a gracious creator. Live
lives which reflect in that knowledge, we are free to
inhabit this land, be prosperous and be loving to
everyONE and everything else. Live lives that offer
true hospitality to those who are very different from
us. Help the wounded know that there is hope. And,
believe that for everyONE of us there may be a Glory,
a hope, that is more immense than we ever dreamed of
or hoped for.
(ref: NicholeNordeman, "What if You're Wrong").
To all you folks who compare VT Tech to the war in Iraq: Don't mix apples and oranges!
The young people killed at VT Tech were civilians.
The men and women in Iraq and elsewhere are soldiers in a VOLUNTEER Army/Air Force/Navy/Marines. No one forced them to join. When one joins the military it is understood that one may have to go to war. Regardless of whether you think this war is morally wrong, when you join the military you have to go anywhere they send you.
"When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world. "
My dear, you seem to forget that Satan, just like Jesus, is your God's son. Therefore, your God is directly responsible for all the ills that befall this world.
So perhaps the "Allmighty" is fallible since he is incapable of controlling his offspring?
If that is the case then he can't possibly be in control of this world.
The Web Site to give God the Thanks and Praise for things not being any worst then they could have been is - www.imnotashametothankyoulord.com - It's only
for Gods Glory.
There is so much loss in this story that it is a struggle to see what good may come of it in the long run. The loss of so many sparkeling children with futures so bright. These kids and their classmates are the future of the world. The loss of one such is the loss of a world to come from each and every one. When I was a young person in the midwest many years ago, every family had a gun, or two, and yet the level of gun violence, especially of this type, was very, very, low.
It seems to me that we live increasingly isolated from each other now, and the community support and mutual caring seems to be getting lost. Constant pressure for more output by robber barons running our industries to enrich themselves, job losses, families with both parents working sixty-hour weeks, fragmented families, troubled kids who no one helps. Where did we think it would lead?
I believe that the communities of faith in the previous century, for all their imperfections of over control and letting people down because they were not perfect instruments of God at all times, at least cared for the children better than this. Perhaps we have lost track of the fact that each child, whether from Korea, or Virginia is sacred. That means being able to recognize when some of us need help, and to act upon it. This troubled young man showed signs of what was to come, but no one was allowed to intervene in a way that would be effective. He lost because of that, and we lost because of that. Thirty-one families lost their most precious sons and daughters because of that. Our society has to care about these losses, and how to minister to those among us who need it, or we are all lost.
My heart go's out to each one of you and I know the
pain seams never ending, but truly God will get you
and your love ones through it. There is a Web Site
build only to give your Thanks and Praise to God for
their for the grace of God it could have ben worst.
So to God be all Honor and Glory. He will keep your
hearts and minds from harding to.
Well, my old preacher would say that Godless America brought about this tragedy as divine punishment. Then again, his idea of a Christmas sermon was vilifying the Three Wise Men for inadvertently causing the slaughter of thousands of Hebrew newborns.
Religion should comfort people, not point fingers. Jesus preached love, and Buddhism emphasized harmony with all things. Regardless of the fundamental differences and contradictions between different religions, most people seek them out of peace of mind and communion with a higher power.
I can't explain Cho's actions. I can only hope that people will try to genuinely converse and examine the subject through their respective points of view, RATHER THAN USING IT AS A SOAPBOX TO AGGRESSIVELY BASH THEIR SUPPOSED OPPONENTS (Christians, Atheists, Gun Nuts, Americans and Anti-Americans, I'm looking at all of you).
Now is the time for constructive dialogue, not shameful bickering.
I watched the news tonight on VTech. They flashed across the screen the pictures of the students that were killed. My heart ached for them and their families.
Then I wondered why the pictures of the dead soldiers from the start of this war till present were not being flashed across the screen daily? Are they any less important?
The answer of course is no. But as someone else said God forbid we wake this country up to the terrible horror being perpetuated in Iraq everyday.
It's quite possible that "Ishmael Ax" is a reference to the narrator in "Moby Dick". Cho was an English Lit major, after all. Tell that to the annoying people who are asking you what it means. Like you (or anyone else) has a view on what this guy was thinking.
As for where I think God was in all of this horrible tragedy, I look at the Prof. Livescu, who is as old as my father and has survived a lot more, putting himself between the gunman and his students. I look at the R.A. who responded when the first girl was shot, and got killed. I look at the students who barricaded their classroom doors to protect the others. I see the face of the Divine in them. Because ALL religions have the same basic idea - love your neighbor. Look out for your fellow Humans. Whether they were Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, or something else, these brave souls are heroes.
My God, how contemptible Americans must look to the rest of the world when they supported an obviously trumped up war - obvious at any rate to anyone who didn't have their fat ass permanently parked at a McDonald's - where hundreds are now being killed every day and the unexpected death of 32 college students is cause for endless hand-wringing and smarmy elocutions.
I agree with Karen above (way above - i.e. my faith accepts the absurd) but God needs us to be pragmatic. Lethal weapons create lethal consequences. We need the people (those who will needlessly die because of gun violence) more than we need the Ssecond Amendment. The framers of the Constitution - who were thinking about muskets; were not thinking about the technology of Glocks, AK47s or even Gatling guns. Will there ever be a time when we realize the government is corrupt and everyone needs to take up arms against the authority of the day? How long does this myth need to be perpetuated? Lets use the courts to sue every post office, university, every arms manufacturer, every dealer or importer, everyone or anyone who in some way could have prevented a madman from easily killing an innocent victim.
My heart equally aches for YOU. I cannot imagine. Nine years ago my first-born child died in my arms after 26 months of cancer hell (see the essay on my website). But, at least I had that time with her. People like you and the VT kin who lose a child suddenly have my total sympathy.
Dave:
"the question asked how faith explains senseless tragedies like this one. It does not ask other to critique people's faith."
_____
True, but, c'mon, you know threads are gonna wander, and peoples' opinions are gonna get challenged. I think I was pretty much on topic when I first posted at about 1:32 pm.
Now, if you wanna go back to the exact question "how does your faith tradition explain (and respond to) senseless tragedies such as the Virginia Tech shootings," does it my mean MY PERSONAL current 'faith tradition' (a moving target, that; less a tradition than an evolution) or the one I was raised in as a child (Episcopalian)? If it's the latter, I'd said they're probably spewing forth the usual well-meaning, eloquent, -- but ultimately vapid, in the main -- platitudes.
Regarding my own evolved "spiritual" views, I think I've pretty well stated them already during the course of the day. Cho's act was indeed "senseless" morally. The unsatisfying "explanation" is simple: untended acute (and worsening) mental illness + easily available lethal weapons.
Nothing more. All part of the random walk that is life on this planet.
Professor Nikki Giovanni pretty much nailed it yesterday. Worth hearing if you missed it. Probably up on YouTube by now (along with Cho's crazed QuickTime movie rant).
It is difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend the extreme violence that exploded across the Blacksburg campus earlier this week. In a sense, the best we can do for the survivors is to acknowledge their pain and validate their absolute entitlement to cry. And, when it becomes time to explain the unexplainable, perhaps the best we can do would be to remind them that being human has a terrible cost; each of us is bound to impose meaning on the chaos we witness.
Although they most certainly did not choose this awful event to become a turning point in their lives, the survivors will be in a position to turn that madness into something meaningful, by the choices they will make, the lives they will choose to live and the values they will choose to live by. And, perhaps in that small way, some part of those who have died will still remain alive.
My heart aches for the families who lost their loved ones at Virginia Tech. As a Mother whose child died tragically in a car accident, I understand the shock and grief the families are experiencing. Losing a child is one of the most difficult trials that one can go through in life. We must have compassion for the families, respect their privacy and right to grieve. I can only imagine what they must be going through right now. It will be extremely difficult because of media coverage replaying the events over and over. I understand this but I pray the media, reporters and others will tread gently out of respect for the families. It has been ten years since my son died but the Virginia Tech tragedy brings it all back, as if it happened yesterday. You never get over the loss of a child. Let's remember this as we remember the loss of such promising children. It could have been one of ours and how would you feel.
The Virginia Tech killing spreee is senseless and tragic.
And what is it with so many non-Muslim friends who e-mailed me all over asking what "Ismail Ax" on Cho's arm means? And linking his killing spree to Islam when he stated in the video he is dying like Jesus?
Yes, this is also senseless, the allusions and speculations of connecting his killing spree to Islam based on "Ismail Ax".
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of Cho and to his family too, who are equally shocked and grieved by what happened.
Cho may be mentally ill, but how can one forgive the "sane" and "sober" for such speculations on "Ismail Ax" whatever that was and why Cho had it on his body.
It is time we turn to the living dealing with the deaths of their loved ones.
There are approximately 15,000 homicides with guns committed every year. Thus, every single day of the year on the average, 41 lives are taken. It is no less a tragedy that these 41 lives have been lost in 41 incidents than the tragedy of 32 lives lost in one. But one set is seen as a fact of life; the other as a horrific event. Oh, well.
I found Virginia Tech as a very friendly university and it is the friendly atmosphere in Blacksburg which surprised me. I have heard tales about discrimination against foreigners in Texas and other southern states. Virginia is a pretty sober place.
I also found majority of the faculty trying to help the foreign students as they understand the difficulties faced by Asians and Africans. Foreigners, especially the Dutch and Greek faculty were there to help me whenever the situation went ugly. The International Students Dean Dr Massey was an especially friendly person and told me to come him at times of difficulty, and there was help at hand for whoever who wanted it.
Unfortunately the English Department in Virginia Tech has failed on this occasion. They should have sorted his problems outright without picking on him and isolating him.
To say that I have a faith would be misleading. I am an Atheist and atheism is more of a mindset, not a faith. Nevertheless, I feel the need to respond.
When tragedy occurs in anyones life, it is important to begin putting the pieces together. I feel one of those pieces is why this young man felt isolated in a predominately Christian country. What does this say about Christianity? What does it say about the rest of society (muslim, Hindu, Atheist and other religions alike)?
What this points to is a lack of tolerance in our society and the only way to change such a society is to relinquish faith. Although it has obvious benefits--some people become more kind, and many churches, mosques, etc. attempt to help others--in general religion divides us. It says, 'be what I am or go to hell.'
How many people, I wonder, looked at this young man and thought him different, and different is bad. I know it is in our nature as humans to want to congregate with people who look like and act like us.
You would think that religion would cause us to move past this, but instead it divides us even deeper by insinuating that eternal life (a long time) will await us and if we don't join this particular faith, we are doomed.
Instead of looking toward faith to guide us in times of tragedy, we should look toward our environment and ask some serious questions. Questions like: how did our society cause this? What types of values are we instilling in our children to make them blossom into killers? And the most important question: How can we create a culture where everyone feels loved, nurtured and respected--regardless of their faith or lack there of?
When our government has clearly demonstrated that violence can be used as an option for attempting to solve a totally human-type of problem such as our invasion of Iraq, some troubled people opt to use it themselves to solve their real or perceived problems.
Throw away that idea of god, which is nothing more than a projected ego, and replace it with the image of child. Then, make children the real Gods and the rest of humanity the angels. Respect people for what they are: there's nothing more mysterious and yet more wonderful than a human being, at least in this part of the Universe.
And none of them has ever seen a god....
My faith accepts the absurd. I don't believe in a personal God but rather something that transcends existence without intervening it it. What happened at VT was absurd in some ways in that it cannot be fit into any pattern of meaning. The motives that fed it are not meaningful to anyone but the person who did it. Nothing can be offered that would explain it to the victims of their families. The only thing I can offer is that it will eventually become part of a past, a past filled in by events and people who do have meaning. There will always be a hole there but the hole will be surrounded by significance, by friends, by family and, yes, by love.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.
Christianity is a religion of resentment, as Nietsche observed. Look at the delight they take in the idea of the Rapture where millions they occasionally claim to love will be exposed to terrible suffering, much to their obvious delight.
I got to this thread by clicking my mouse on the face of a man who's the leader of the Southern Baptists. Ironic, since he's a major promulgator of ant-gay hatred and its consequent violence.
“When will the Churches use their pulpits to rise up against the sick American fascination with guns?” posted by:RAS
First of all I think we need to focus on the families and friends of those involved in this senseless crime of selfish emotional greed and ignorance. I think we should also take a moment and recognize the senseless killing of others and in greater numbers of those in Iraq, Africa and the rest of the world, victims of less opportunity and ability then our own. All instances are sad and equally just as wrong. Victims that will not even have the opportunity to attend college much less the misfortune of getting shot in one.
However since the topic has arisen and its going to be the only thing talked about in the media until it becomes as desensitized as Iraq lets try and face the issues of why churches should rise up against guns since this person is Sooooo passionate about gun control because he saw a news broadcast yesterday.
I would assume they will rise up after they are satisfied that every witch and sorcerer has been put to death for their thought crimes. Once we have stable control of the demonic you can be sure churches will not have further use of weaponry. Of course we could argue that we can still burn witches at the stake with little more than a box of matches and kindling. What a grand Idea we can pursue Satan and get rid of the guns in one fell swoop!
(excerpt from full Article on Website)http://www.myspace.com/dont_crash
"Churches against Guns"
God is the Politican's escape card. When the Leaders talk of these great tragic events in a Nation's life, it's "we pray God will reach out with his everlasting love to the relatives of the victims." What he is really saying is " my Government and I are in no way responsible for this." or the buck doesn't stop here. Its good political sense to have an unreachable , uncontactable,unproveable God where the buck stops. Helps keep the suckers in line and the myriads of God representatives off welfare.
DAVID: "And obviously with all that this world is going through, wars, school shooting, iraq, darfur, humanity as a whole really has used morality good huh? Wow, do we need God more than ever these days."
_____
"need God more than ever"???
Well, "His" track record to date doesn't exactly inspire confidence, I would think. Back when "God" was a much bigger deal in the daily lives of humans than is now the apparent case, barbarity ran amuck with gruesome abandon just as today. Only, today, the tools of cruelty are much more effective.
Look: Is there "a Supreme Being"?
Well, yeah, it oughta be clear on just minimal logical reflection. Some all-encompassing "thing" must 'be,' some infinite "Is-ness" surely 'is.' (To the extent that human language can even begin to articulate that which encompasses us and the rest of "creation." In fact, the very notion of "creation" is a human cognitive construct. Like I said in a much earlier post, the universe doesn't owe us any explanations. That we continue to demand them via fallacies such as "Wishful Thinking" is OUR problem.)
Some infinite "thing" obviously "be" -- even if it's "an illusion," even THAT would necessarily "be."
So, I take an ineffable "Supreme Being" as a given. But, that's a LONG way from the putatively consequent logical necessity of some anthropomorphic "God" who has a "will" and "demands" and "wishes" for "His" "creation."
All pretty primitive, in my view.
I find it interesting that we talk about "the infinite" and then promptly (and quixotically) start trying to put borders around it, trying to define it.
A waste of time.
I would never murder anyone. And I don't need some "God" to keep me from doing so.
Yeah your right Bobby. Individually it was nobody elses fault for this tragedy. I was just referring to sin in general. But individually we are all to be accountable for our actions.
And obviously with all that this world is going through, wars, school shooting, iraq, darfur, humanity as a whole really has used morality good huh? Wow, do we need God more than ever these days.
"To Frank and whoever thinks God is responsible for tragedy."
David then recites a handful of self-exculpatory Bible verses.
Isn't that convenient!? It reminds me of the Republics who beat the drums for an illegal war in 2002 and now blame the then-Democratic minority for not being more forceful in opposing their folly.
Isn't the Biblical god/mindset wonderful? God created EVERYTHING, is omniscient and omnipresent, yet any screw-up that happens in the world is man's fault, not god's. And how do we know this? Why, god himself told us we're to blame.
As someone said above, that's fine logic for 5-year-olds, but it cuts no mustard in an adult view of the world.
Why are so many trying to give a religious explanation to this tragedy?
No trying will resolve it in any case.
Do not try to rationalize it except through the illness of an individual.
DAVID: "God originally created life to be peaceful and harmonious with God, but man (Adam) chose otherwise and created sin. Definition of sin: to miss the mark. Yep we miss the mark with sin. It seperates us from God. Until we accept Jesus we cannot be forgiven and will be judged accordingly.
So, it wasn't God's fault in Va. Tech. It was OUR fault as Man."
____
Yeah, this scary crap really works for 5 year olds. But, at some point, it helps to actually grow up and become a competent moral agent without need of comic-book story crutches.
The "fault" at VT was Cho's, period (assuming he had substantive cognitive capacity to parse right from wrong).
To Frank and whoever thinks God is responsible for tragedy:
Romans 5:12-21
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam's fault. Stupid apple tree!! God originally created life to be peaceful and harmonious with God, but man (Adam) chose otherwise and created sin. Definition of sin: to miss the mark. Yep we miss the mark with sin. It seperates us from God. Until we accept Jesus we cannot be forgiven and will be judged accordingly.
So, it wasnt God's fault in Va. Tech. It was OUR fault as Man.
the monotheisms are not compatible with events such as this. not that you can't work out some book-length rationalization in terms of free will and so on, but that events like vatech display the world as morally indifferent. that the world is created by a wholly good and all-powerful being just doesn't give an honest sense of our reality. try what happened in iraq today; or to explain natural disasters through free will or sin.
We, as believers, frequently forget something very important: that the will of God, with Its divine message, cannot be understood by anything but by the language of Love. The reason for the existence of evil, for instance, can only be understood by someone who is in direct contact with the presence of Love.
There is no reasoning and not argument, despite of how subtle they might be, that can even come close to apprehending the truth. Reason, to be sure, has its place, but this should be only to provide protection for the innocence of Love: Like the hammer that helps to provide a roof over our heads: very useful, indeed, but incapable of instilling harmony between the individuals living underneath it.
Reason, for instance, would question the purpose of repeating a prayer over and over again; but the person who is in Love needs and hears only one word which repeats eternally. How could reason see this?
To believe that we are going to understand God’s will by memorizing every passage of our sacred books and by finding all the logical conections between each part, is like dissecting the smile of a child frame by frame to find out why it inspires tenderness when we see it. Are we going to ever discover anything this way? Isn’t the sacrifice of one's own needs for the realization of the divine will the greatest example of Love? Could we understand such sacrifice by connecting the dots?
We spend too much time trying to prove the validity of our beliefs through the laws of reason and empirical evidence, and thus, we become apologetics and try to show that the latest scientific advances are in agreement with our creed. But to the eyes of Love, this has no consequence. Every interpretation is tainted by separation. Love, when it recognizes itself, rises above reason and ceases to look for its guidance. Love then knows itself completely.
Doubts about the degree of correspondence, or even the level of cohesion between Love and whatever the empirical reality might be, poses no danger to Love here. Love is its own witness and has no need for any footstool. There is no need for questions. No need for proofs.
And then, when everything becomes this quiet and still, we'll know why God permits such tragedies.
DAVID: "I encourage you to continue to do good things, but you must know that salvation does not come by works but by the grace of God given to us through Jesus, in faith alone..."
____
Sorry, dude, I just don't believe that neurotic juvenile crap.
The rationalizations by the religious folk on here is downright comical. If there were a god up there that let all these kids die so miserably, then does he really DESERVE to be worshipped? I think not.
God is a fairy tale. It's time for you all to grow up.
According to David...You can sell all your possesions and feed the hungry for the rest of your life, but the Bible teaches that all you need to do is believe in Jesus Christ.
Man have you been wasting your time being a good guy! According to this, you can do whatever you like as long as you believe in Christ! Yippeeeeee!
Right. I do not "know God," but I have been a loyal husband of 33 years, a steadfast friend to many, never committed any crimes or engaged in any violence, don't cheat on my taxes, give thousands to charity every year, etc, etc.
Ephesian 2:8-7
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
I encourage you to continue to do good things, but you must know that salvation does not come by works but by the grace of God given to us through Jesus, in faith alone.
You can sell all your possesions and feed the hungry for the rest of your life, but the Bible teaches that all you need to do is believe in Jesus Christ.
VCM: "When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods..."
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LOL!!!
Right, What utter adolescent comic-book intellect tripe. I keep my own life and my behavior in my own hands. I have no need of some ludicrous Imaginary Friend to guide my actiing in a constructive manner toward others.
When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world.
When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world.
SUNNY: "...We must pray for the ones that do not know God, as they are the ones that make the world bad, violent, cold..."
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Right. I do not "know God," but I have been a loyal husband of 33 years, a steadfast friend to many, never committed any crimes or engaged in any violence, don't cheat on my taxes, give thousands to charity every year, etc, etc.
More time spent acting constructively against injustice would do a lot more than "praying" to some Imaginary Friend.
"Why doesn't anyone ever point out that the gospels were written 50 to 100 years AFTER Jesus died, and that these "quotes" all you religious types bring up are probably nonsense?"
I and others are constantly making that point on this blog, it just doesn't mean anything to the faithful.
ABC News is reporting that Cho was found to be mentally ill two years ago by a VA court.
VT Killer Ruled Mentally Ill by Court; Let Go After Hospital Visit
By NED POTTER and DAVID SCHOETZ
April 18, 2007 — A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then the state let him go.
In 2005, after a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho was either a danger to himself or to others — the necessary criteria for a detention order — he was evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.
Why doesn't anyone ever point out that the gospels were written 50 to 100 years AFTER Jesus died, and that these "quotes" all you religious types bring up are probably nonsense? Why don't you try quoting someone from 50 years ago, without any access to film, tapes etc.. Impossible.
Furthermore, to claim that this man is "evil" is absolutely ridiculous. Look at the last 4 years in Iraq. If anything is "evil" it is this. And yet most of you bible thumpers still go along with this, still sacrifice other people's children, while claiming moral high ground. Oh, and you probably also support a law that says anyone over 12 can buy a rifle.
To think that a prophet like Jesus would support this war and support this administration is turning his whole message upside down for extremely cynical ends.
Get it together all you in the "Christian Wrong", cuz (in the words of the a true prophet, Curtis Mayfield) if there's a hell below, you're all gonna go.
These tragedies remind me that we do not pray enough. If we obeyed what Our Lady is asking us to do since her first apparition in 1981, in Medjugorje, Bosnia, we would be praying for the ones that DO NOT KNOW THE LOVE OF GOD and therefore do wrong things. We must pray for the ones that do not know God, as they are the ones that make the world bad, violent, cold. If we prayed more, our children would be safer because people would be better. It is simple: the bad guys do wrong things because the good guys do not pray enough. Prayer leads to peace, peace leads to love.
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39)
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BRIAN: "...If Cho Seung-Hui had been a devout, true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, this horrible event would have never occurred..."
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I don't need an Imaginary Friend to keep me from perpetrating violence. I simply take it as a given that such is wrong.
Moreover, were I gonna follow the constructive teachings of some historical spiritual leader, it'd probably be the Buddha. The long trail of unspeakable horrors pepetrated in the name of this Jesus have no equivalent that that realm.
I am a Christian as well, or what joe nash might refer me to as is a "Jesus freak." Sure, I'm proud to be a Jesus freak. I love that verse you pointed out. I continue to debate with people on here and that verse sums up everything. Even God knew that these times would occur and the more and more I hear about how God could not be real, the more and more that verse comes to life. Thanks for your input and God bless you.
Most so-called "Christians" (with the exceptions of "radical, extremist" sects such as the Mennonites and the Quakers) seem to embrace the anti-Christ teaching that "evil doers" (including the mentally ill, the mentally retarded and children) should be executed to manifest God's great "love." These same "Christians" usually also embrace the anti-Christ teaching that one should depend on a gun, and not God, for protection. For that reason I gave up on religion fairly early in life.
All you jesus freaks out there....Cho was mentally unstable, a sick person. So lay off the he was evil, didn't have God part. I feel more sorry for him than the 32 students killed, because Americans kill Iraqi citizens in greater number everyday. That proves many of you Jesus freaks are worse than him - he was a sick person with no control over his actions - unless you jesus freaks are ready to accept that Christianity is truely a sick religion.
In a very humble and calm manner, I am posting here. As a Christian believer who tries to live as devoutly as possible according to the teachings within the Bible, especially The New Testament, the foundation of true Christianity, I just want to share with everybody that any correct Christian response to this tragedy should be rooted in Holy Scripture, especially The New Testament. My response stems from Paul's in 2 Timothy:
2 Tim. 3:1-5: You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. 2 For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. 3 They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. 4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly (NLT).
Sadly, in my solemn belief, this passage reflects and speaks of our modern society and a social environment that all too frequently helps create situations like those that have occurred recently at VT. Overall, society as a whole has made a choice (and I stress the word “choice”) to disregard the teachings of Jesus Christ and have idolized the human individual instead of living humbling before God.
With that said, I have to emphasize that Scripture, Old and New Testaments, focuses on human choice, especially in terms of how human choice is used to obey or disobey God. Jesus never forced his beliefs and teachings on anybody; however, he did state that there are severe consequences for not adopting and practicing them. Again, human choice is emphasized. If a person truly chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, that person has made the correct choice, the greatest and most important choice of their life.
After this choice is made, the believer must then again choose to commit their life to actively learning and practicing the teachings of Jesus Christ. If a person does this, they themselves will not act in such a tragic manner as Cho Seung-Hui has acted.
With this said, I firmly believe that Cho Seung-Hui made a series of wrong choices that have lead to this horrible event. Is that to say that his environment or biological makeup did not play a role? Not at all. However, I firmly believe that based on the information that we have on Cho Seung-Hui, he made not just one choice, but a series of choices to act in a manner that resulted in tragedy. If Cho Seung-Hui had been a devout, true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, this horrible event would have never occurred.
I think it is time we start looking at the entire culture of violence, especially as we experience it in the United States, since our duty is primarily to this country. Historically, this country has glorified violence in spite of all our professions of being a "Christian country." We tolerate violence as entertainment and as a way to keep our economy going by making and selling weapons worldwide and conducting or sponsoring wars abroad. We maintain the largest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in the world. We divert attention from our national responsibility in this by pointing to others as "terrorists" when the fact is that the entire world is terrorized by our irresonsible behavior. It is possible that in such things as the Virginia massacre we are "reaping the whirlwind" of our own love affair with guns and the weapons industry, and with our willingness to use violence in order to gain dominance in the world.
If there is a god, it simply stood by and watched in Blacksburg (as in Rwanda, as in Cambodia, as in Europe in the 1940s), doing nothing to intervene and stop the killing. Such a god, given the immense powers that believers ascribe to it, is morally culpable in the killings, just as you would be if you had the ability to stop a crime and stood and watched and did nothing. A morally culpable god is less comforting even than a morally indifferent, random universe. One can have only pity for fools who try to evade the problem by saying, like the old labor movement song, that there will be pie in the sky when you die.
Dave, if your Unconditionally Loving Imaginary Friend gets you through the day, fine. For me it's just anthropomorphic Wishful Thinking silliness.
I look at the senseless brutality in this world and just see more work to be done, beyond stoic acceptance of the frequent sadness of random outcomes. We are a morally primitive species, one too clever by half. I suppose in the Really Big Picture it matters not. We will be what we make (or destroy) of ourselves.
BTW- while I find much compelling reasoning in the works of proactive athiests like Sam Harris, I also find much comorting wisdom in Ken Wilber's "The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion."
One of the things Cho was enraged by was the fact that his parents tried to force their Christianity upon him. Explain how Christianity aided and abetted this young man.
I did not have God in my life when I went to Virginia Tech, but now I do. I am glad to have a friend that loves me unconditionally, and is always there. This event shows us how life is not something we can depend on. It can be ended at anytime. Before I believed in God I was always sickened by the problems in the world. I never looked at the good in it. People may say that this senselessness shows there is no God, but I dont. I see God in the beauty of Virginia Tech. In the learning. In the community. And even in the suffering. God feels our pain and is there for us. Jesus had a place in his heart for those that were suffering. When anyone asked for help, and believed, they were helped. I have been helped by God. I used to be miserable and in pain. God helped me to find people like me, and together we have helped each other. If someone doesnt believe in God I feel pain for them because something like this just has no respite. But with God, I feel like it will all be ok.
Life on this planet is a random walk begun by microbes some 4 billion plus years ago. The universe does not owe us any explanations. Anthropomorphic religious incantations and explanation are just silly.
As tragically sad as the VT episode undeniably is, 32 murdered innocents in Iraq is what's known as a "slow news day" any more.
I think VT's Professor Nikki Giovanni eloquently, if tangentially (and more broadly), made this point yesterday.
What does religion have to do with this tragedy or any other tragedy other than to point out the simple rational fact that there is no god? Or if there is one, it is a singularly malevolent being who creates things to destroy them stochastically. So you might want to be very very afraid of it, but praying for guidance or protection or something positive is unlikely to be a fruitful endeavor. But of course you have well-meaning but inane and vacuous comments like god is love and so on. Religious people who say that god creates but we choose are essentially saying that god is a game player who inserts characters into its game and the characters then proceed to wreak havoc or subsist peacefully stochastically. Why would you pray to such a god? To take you out of the game? Or to leave you in the game long enough for some madman to butcher you? Just curious ...
"How does your faith tradition explain (and respond to) senseless tragedies such as the Virginia Tech shootings."
I fail to see how any religion could possibly EXPLAIN the massacre at VA Tech. Why would you even ask such an inane question?
Cho was obviously a very disturbed young man who, for whatever reason, decided killing just himself was not enough. He had to take as many others as possible with him. What does that have to do with religion?
You could have just as well asked how does your religion explain the suffering of victims of hurricane Katrina or the tsumani in Asia.
For all those who rant and rave about gun control: I grew up in a country where guns were not sold. If you were a hunter you had to jump through many hoops to obtain a rifle. Prior to moving to the US I had never known anyone who owned a gun. Yet, mysteriously, criminals were always able to obtain handguns, even in a country with the strictest controls. In America, drugs are illegal and are not sold in any store. How come then that America has a major drug problem. Banning guns will do nothing but keeping them out of the hands of responsible owner. All others will obtain their guns on the black market.
Maria, do you really "believe if each person claiming to be "Christian" would pratice the teachings of scripture, God would move and demonic acts like this and other ungoldly acts would be minimized?"
I sure hope you're wrong. A God who will only stop violence if people read and practice teachings from 1,000's of years ago sounds terribly petty and vindictive - much worse that the ineffective but kindhearted God described elsewhere in these discussions who can't stop the violence, but weeps with us or provides comfort after the violence has occurred.
As an Australian, on behalf of all Australians, if I may, I send all the family and friends of the victims, the family and friends of the perpetrator of the mindless crime (for they must live with shame in addition to the loss), and to the American nation that grieves with them, my heartfelt condolences. Since all words at this stage of the tragedy is meaningless, I wish to merely share the pain in silence and a poem that fits with the spirit of the day.
On Death
Then Almitra spoke, saying, "We would ask now of Death."
And he said:
You would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?
Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.
Najum,
our comments crossed each other in the ether. You are fundamentally correct. I'm afraid this particular thread is substantially off the subject for a blog on religion. I suspect it appeared here because the moderators were as obsessed by the hot story of the day as was everyone else in their business...
Deaths in Iraq have, unfortunately, become predictable events and therefore not breaking news.
Thank you all for your thoughtful reflections on how religious community might have been a help to this perpetrator in his emotional distress.
The fact is, this story has little to do with faith and everything to do with a lack of community. It is easy to see in the columns and comments on this blog that people often seek to be reassured that they have joined the right group. What happened at VT is one example of why we all need to rethink our assumption that in order for one view to be correct, all the others need to be false. Instead of reaching out to refute other doctrines, we should simply be reaching out to connect with other human beings.
Membership in a viable community, whether a house of worship or a tight circle of friends, might not have prevented him from taking this action, although having someone to talk to who he knew really cared and understood could have made a difference. At the very least, having someone around who understood where his mind was headed could have provided some warning...
Faith is an irrational, escapist distraction from the real issues: the proliferation of arms; ludicrously lax gun laws; the sociology of campus life; the culture of glorifying violence etc etc.
Why don't you ask the same question in the context of, say, Iraq: How does your faith tradition explain the senseless killings in Baghdad? Dragging God into every debate seems to be the American way of dealing--rather, not dealing--with what are essentially political, economic, psychological, sociological and cultural questions.
many people have made some focused points- in looking for the source of events like the virginia tech killings, as cyndi presented her observations as an educator, and the feelings of isolation (possibly exacerbated by mental illness)that led to the desperate and destructive actions of that student- to the observations of chinchilla that the issues of our mentally ill is something we need to address with more attention and vigor- to the several posters commenting on gun control- ( i am in favor of stricter gun control) one thing we all can do is pay more attention to the lonelier members of our neighborhoods who may be crying out in less visible ways-
even smiling can be an act of charity---(and its obvious that paying closer attention wont solve incidences like this- but its a small thing people can do- just paying attention i mean
It is really irrelevent, people mouth sentimental god words. President Bush " may our loving father in heaven give comfort to the relatives of the victims " or words to that effect. Perhaps if he had said enough is enough guns will be removed from the general public or we will eliminate these video games where shooting people is made a fun routine event hour afer hour day after day.It may over time have some impact. The simple fact 30 odd young people in the prime of their lives have had their one and only life ever terminated. They will pass no life on to a next generation. The killer murderer took his own life. End of story. Mouth your words ,build a memorial, attend services, nothing will return them to life, anyway anywhere. Mourning is a personal close family thing that depends on no God or any Religion or TV station, it's simply a time healing process. Religion promises much to the mourner all of it unproven fairytales such as, Jesus has risen from the dead.
We may well need to change gun laws in the US, I don't disagree with that, but there is a deeper issue here.
Consider this, In 1994 in Rwanda in just 100 days, more people had been slaughtered with machetes and clubs than had died from atomic weapons in all of history.
And sadly this is but one example.
Certainly we have to have laws to try to curtail the occurrence of things such as gun violence, but even if the gun had not been invented, the numbers may be less but this sort of evil would still happen.
We are in our hearts inclined towards evil, though thankfully not to such proprtions. Thankfully much of that is restrained, and it does not manifest in the kind of brutality seen on the campus of VT, or in the kind seen in Rwanda, or in other times and places.
But this kind of thing has happened across all boundaries of time, situation, economic status, country, etc.
It may be hard to comprehend, but it is easy to see, the effects of the evil and wrong that we do. And it is amazing that a holy God would take all of that upon Himself so that we may be saved from the eternal consequences of that evil that we each to some degree perpetrate and for which justice demands consequence ..."so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"
These tragedies upset us, scare us and we want answers to how this could happen. But what people really want are quick fixes. Prayer. Gun control. More security measures taken in the schools and public buildings.
These tragedies scream out MENTAL ILLNESS, but we chalk it off to gun control and metal detectors and then pray that this does not happen again and then go about our lives. They are band-aid fixes for a larger problem which is of course mental illness.
The stigmatization of mental illness many times prevents people to seek and accept help. Many of these illness can be successfully controlled with proper medication and therapy. Therapy can help you to understand your illness, to accept it, deal with it and learn how to recognize when you are not doing so well and may need to make some medication changes. Therapy can help you to learn how to interact with people better and more often. Get you out of that loner and isolation mode. Allow you to find people you can trust and hope that they can and will recognize when you may not be doing so well when you yourself may not be able to recognize it right away.
And even if a person does know they need help, many times they cannot afford the therapy and medication that is needed. Even with health care, many of the medications are still very expensive.
I personally take three different medications. As for the cost with health care and a prescription plan it cost me 180.00 a month at best. Without either it would be close to 1000.00 a month. As far as the stigmatization of those two words *mental illness*, there is no price tag for that.
We need more public awareness, understanding, acceptance and education for mental illness. We need more accessability to mental health care and its options. The drug companies have to stop charging 5.00 a pill for something that probably costs them 5 cents to manufacture. At least for low income, no health insurance patients.
All of us have to stop looking for the quick fixes and take the time and trouble to address the larger problem or we are doomed to see it repeat itself over and over again as it has been doing.
Fall back on your faith, pray all you need to but please, please insist that we as a society address the larger issue. Please, for all of our sakes.
All such sensless killings and disrespect for each other stems from one fact. This is the promotion of each to themselves. Survival of the fittest. Personal ownership at whatever cost, cheating, lying, even robbing. The idea that we are separate and not One. As long as socieities promote this idea and act upon it, then we will continue to reap the rewards of it. When we start looking at each other as if we look into the mirror, that is we only see ourselves in each other, then we come close to understanding this Oneness. It is then when we treat each other like small gods, as we are indeed made in the image of God. We then learn there are no adversaries, no devils, no satans, no evil, Except goodness=God'n'us. ALL as ONE, each a beautiful and unique flower in the Garden of Creation united as a whole in Oneness. Be a voice for Onenness, live it and feel the love and peace within you. Refuse to promote separation, aggression and violence which is the Doctorine of I for I or Me for Me instead of I for You. Sparation is a primitive mentality. Expand. Move ON. Embrace.
All such sensless kinllings and disrespect for each other stems from one fac and one fact alone. This is the promotion of each to themselves. Survival of the fittest. Personal ownership at whatever cost, cheating, lying, even robbing. The idea that we are separate and not One. As long as socieities promote this idea and act upon, then we will continue to reap the rewards of it. When we start looking at each other as if we look into the mirror, that is we only see ourselves in each other, then we come close to understanding this Oneness. It is then when we treat each other like small gods, as we are indeed made in the image of God. We then learn there are no adversaries, no devils, no satans, no evil, Except goodness: God and us, ALL as ONE, each a beautiful and unique flower in the Garden of Creation. Be a voice for Onenness, live it and feel the love and peace within you. Refuse to promote separation, aggression and violence. It is soooooo primitive a mentality. Expand. Move ON. Embrace.
This tragedy reinforces my belief that simply there is no God. And it's time we put this childish nonsense of a belief in God away, and realize that we as human being are the only ones who have the power to reduce ghastly occurences such as this one. A good first step is to institue tighter gun laws and stop letting the NRA and the gun lobbies create a situation that
can easily kill us while they make tons of money, hiding behind the 2nd Amendment. I see, so the shooter fits the definition of a "well disciplined militia." The second problem is that we are country with many leaders who see preemptive violence as a suitable strategy. The neo-cons should cite this young man as a hero, since he follows in teir footsteps.
It was the Lisbon earthquake in 1755 that started Western thinkers -- Christians, Jews, deists, and atheists -- to realize that catastrophes, natural or man-made, were not God's punishment for mankind's sins. Rather, they are essentially random episodes of no cosmic significance.
I don't mean to belittle anyone's horror and grief at what happened, nor that it is appropriate to seek consolation from your religious outlook, but let's not blame any superhuman agency -- God, the devil, liberals, the NRA -- for an act that is the responsibility of a single individual. Let's also for once avoid the second-guessing that the press is so good at, blaming people who misjudged the situation in good faith.
When senseless, ungodly tragdies happen like this I immediately sense a need to draw closer to God and seek ways to bring my life in line with the disciplines of His ways. I believe if each person claiming to be "Christian" would pratice the teachings of scripture, God would move and demonic acts like this and other ungoldly acts would be minimized. I realize people really don't won't to go the "surrender" to God route any more. People lean toward their own philsophies and we all think we know what's right in our minds. However, and so far we haven't seen a decrease in violence in schools and neighborhoods, sexual abuse against children or most importantly a change in the character of people in general. We all as "Christians" need to make a sincere effort to live as Christ would have us live and that is by His principles.
As per the contemporary Christian theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, (from his book, Church, the History of God,Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)
"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" . "Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
And with this profound observation, Schillebeeckx rendered all prophets, i.e. Isaiah, Jesus, Mohammed, Smith et al, and their prophecies moot!!!!!
It also unfortunately explains the tragedies of incidents like the massacre at VT and the daily suicide bombings in Iraq i.e. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS.
Jesus said with love and kindess have I drawn thee.
To all the families that have been effected by this great tragedy I pray that God heal you from your pain heal you from your hurt and bring peace in the midst of your storm. No words can express or explain why but god knows all things.
But let us draw people with love and kindness, consider your neighbor always for we never know what one is facing or dealing with in his/her life. Grace and peace be unto you from God our father.
In his service,
Minister Jay
Adrummersdream04@yahoo.com
This blame game and search for a higher meaning will go on until the end of time with no clear answers.
Gun control? Sure, banning guns or restricting more powerful models may have stopped or at least slowed the killer down, but he most likely would have simply found other means of killing.
Religion? If someone had been able to reach out to the killer and address his hatred through religious teachings it is possible that his path may have changed. However, many mass murderers have been religious fanatics and simply filter their rage through some set of religious delusions (ex: Jim Jones, David Koresh, Bin Laden).
The sad truth is simply that a small segment of humanity is born with sadistic tendencies and the overwhelming urge to kill - it can be labeled as anything from mental illness to population control. There is next to nothing anyone can do to predict where and when the next monster will be turned loose - be it a school shooter, serial killer, or suicide bomber. Unless we ban every weapon or sharp/blunt object then lock up every loner and misfit on pre-emptive grounds it is just something we will have to continue to live with.
This is sad our American friends are going through this sad time.
We are saddened with this rampage and our thougts goes with the families that has been the real victim of this event.
Plese take all the guns and close down all the gun factory that sells gun to civilians like in Canada, we have peace here without guns.
No other country in the world has this gun problem like our American good friends, please do it for the sake of our future generation.
Gun lobby and seller are equally responsible for this crime, because "commiting a crime and assisting to commit a crime is also a crime under the law". This case the gun lobby and the gun maker are assisting to happen this so they should be taken to court for this crime.
This is sad our American friends are going through this sad time.
We are saddened with this rampage and our thougts goes with the families that has been the real victim of this event.
Plese take all the guns and close down all the gun factory that sells gun to civilians like in Canada, we have peace here without guns.
No other country in the world has this gun problem like our American good friends, please do it for the sake of our future generation.
Gun lobby and seller are equally responsible for this crime, because "commiting a crime and assisting to commit a crime is also a crime under the law". This case the gun lobby and the gun maker are assisting to happen this so they should be taken to court for this crime.
Everyone has an angle that they'd like to lean on to help explain this event. We hear alot from medical science without much certainty. Alot of Catholics still believe in the devil. I'll be interested to see if the mainstream media will examine this perspective.
Bob Ristom wrote:
"It is always interesting to listen to gun-control advocates blame guns as our problem."
Gun control is different from gun elimination. There's nothing wrong with controlling what types of weapons are available for legal sale in the USA. We do that with many weapons in this country right now. It's a matter of degree.
What's tragic about yesterday's killings is that the clip-fed gun that the killer used had been outlawed by Congress. As a favor to the gun lobby, the Bush administration and their rubber-stamp Republic Congress allowed that law to expire two years ago. Had the law still been in effect, the killer would have had to consider options that didn't include guns that held 15 rounds in preloadable clips. The death toll could have been much lower if the shooter was forced to use a 6-shot, hand-reloaded revolver.
It is always interesting to listen to gun-control advocates blame guns as our problem. What if their effort was directed at much more severe punishment for those who have used guns in the commission of a crime? What if just one of the people under attack had a weapon, in accordance with the concealed carry law in Virginia? What effect could that have exercised on the outcome? Blaming the gun is the easy suggestion. I question it's viability as a solution.
I am amazed at how many Xian columnists and bloggers have spoken of "evil" in describing yesterday's killings. Do they not known that Yahweh, the god of their Bible, is the creator of evil?:
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVILl: I the LORD do all these things."
2 Kings 6:33 "And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, THIS EVIL IS OF THE LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? SHALL THERE BE EVIL IN A CITY, AND THE LORD HATH NOT DONE IT?"
Xians love to profess that their god is a god of peace. They are quick to point to Bible verses that support their claim. Yet, here we have a Bible verse (Is 45:7) that states quite directly that god creates both peace AND evil.
I'd like to read comments from Xians here on their evil-creating god. Was he responsible for the evil that happened yesterday? Do we really have free will to do things independent of god's will when god states UNEQUIVOCALLY that he "create(s) evil" through the exercise of HIS will?
I'd appreciate a response...and a response that doesn't rely on some new-age translation of the Bible that rewrites the verses to make it appear that god doesn't create evil.
Once again, America has to face up to having some of the weakest gun control laws in the world. This, despite what the NRA will probably say now is the best "solution." Which would undoubtably be we just need to give out more guns, legally require every student to have one, etc. The same solution they proposed after Columbine.
Cyndy: I appreciate your comments. I think we can improve the human condition immensely by treating other humans as we would like to be treated and teaching our children to do the same. Tonio: Thank you for your post; I had not seen that in-depth review of Kliebold and Harris. However, that does not negate Cyndy's comment. It still applies and in this case, may be the root cause. We do not yet know.
Those who are searching for higher meanings are wasting their time. If religion helps you cope with reality, good for you. But constructing a plan from God from random acts of violence is, at best, unhelpful and, at worst, counterproductive.
Deb Chatterjee: I would like to think the Homeland security could keep us all alive till were 93 but reality dictates differently. There is more that can be done but complete aversion of tragedy would only occur if we all lived in cocoons. I do not think any of us want that.
The Washington Post is promoting this harmful brand of superstition called "Christianity". Religion kills. People need to stop believing in an imaginary friend called Jesus, and get on with improving the world.
Religion sucks, and is for the mentally and emotionally weak. It preys on the needy and uneducated.
Job said it all. 'The Lord gives. The Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.' People demand that God answer to them. We want it our way. If He does not answer us on our terms, then He is to blame. Such attitudes betray something more about humanity than it does about God. Some see cold comfort or no comfort in that. That is their problem, not God's. Our obligation is to search deep within ourselves when faced with such absurdity and find a blessing in it. My wife and I should know. We have lost 2 children to tragic deaths. Blessings have come, but they have come on His terms and His own good time - not ours.
The lesson of life on earth is that if there is a God, He most certainly DOES NOT care. How else to explain the completely random distribution of happiness and sorrow among people and animals? We really need to get over our pyschological need for a big Daddy in the sky and realize we're alone down here and we have to solve our problems by ourselves.
When tragedy strucks we are muted and feel a sense of hopelessness. But the Almighty cares and feels our pain in this hour of distress and agony.
By faith He will give us the strength to see us through this calamity. Only His love will fill the vacuum that the piercing arrow of grief has opened.
How can there ever be a rational explanation for such a horrific tragedy. First off. My heart goes out to the victims families and loved ones. Such a senseless barbaric act that will influence the lives of many of these people till the day they die.
And the victims themselves. What a waste of human life. All the "might have beens". Gone forever.
And the deranged killer himself. There is a part of me that is glad that he killed himself. Instead of being tried in our courts where he would have in all probability been protrayed as the "real victim". But sometimes I wonder if these psychos have a "comming too" at the last moment. That there is an instant where he realized the evil that he has committed. And then turns the gun on himself. Who knows?
My spirituality cannot explain such cruel and selfish acts. I know that there are extremely mentally sick people running around out there amongst us. I work with many of them on a daily basis. Individuals who take pleasure from other peoples pain and suffering. So I think that there will always be good and evil in the world. I don't buy into the political correct theory that all evil is called mental illness. That evil is treatable with medication and counseling. There are real mentally ill people out there who would never hurt anyone. Just like there are real evil people out there who are constantly making mental plans to carry out evil acts, and some of them act on their sick and twisted thoughts. We could outlaw guns, knives, video games, movies, books, etc... I don't believe that one can stop evil when its made its mind up to act out its aggression. Evil needs no so called rational excuse to hurt, cripple, and murder. It never has.
In the end I am left with more questions than answers. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims. And yes, even to the parents or loved ones of the killer. But not to the killer himself. If there is a God. God will deal with him now.
What I mean by outcast, is feeling like an outcast. Of course these individuals have mental illnesses. Having a mental illness makes people feel isolated. I am not saying that feeling like an outcast is the only reason for their actions, but it is obviously not a well-adjusted person who acts in these ways.
This monumental tragedy at VaTech shall rock the nation for generations.
This is not a faith issue, IMO. It's a law enforcement issue. DHS should take more pre-emptive action, instead of waiting for an unfortunate, catastrophic tragedy to happen and then praying to an unseen deity to bail us out of the evil. Why doesn't DHS have more "snooping" laws to see who is upto something bad and apprehend him/her ? Why does it take 33 innocent lives to get the wake-up call ? And, then hide behind candle-light vigils and prayers, just to hope that somehow (?) USA shall be protected ?
It's simple commonsense action(s) that seems to be totally lost.
"I think it is important to realize that the perpetrators of these crimes (VT, Columbine, etc.) feel that they are outcasts -- that they do not fit in with the rest of the world."
Cyndy, the FBI rejected the "outcast" theory some time ago. Instead, they showed that the Columbine killers had severe mental illnesses:
My faith does not answer the question of senseless killings or, honestly, the pain of life in many ways. I think it is important to realize that the perpertrators of these crimes (VT, Columbine, etc.) feel that they are outcasts -- that they do not fit in with the rest of the world. (Yes, I am assuming this for the VT incident.) Would my faith stop these? No, because my faith is not part of these people's lives.
The answer, I feel, lies more in how we treat our fellow man than how we worship in our chosen ways. The story of the Good Samartian is applicable -- many other faith traditions have similar ethics -- treat everyone as your neighbor. Do not shun, mock, alienate someone else just because they are different than you.
Since I work in public education, the issue of school killings is everpresent. I work very hard at showing students that we are all the same -- whether that be through my Comparative Religions class, Mythology, Western Philosophy, or American Literature. I pick texts that show all people feel isolated at times, no one is alone in that feeling. However, there are always places to reach out. If that is a church for you, great. If it is your actual neighbor, awesome. If it is the counselor on the other end of a phone line, wonderful. But this goes both ways ... people must be willing to grab the hands of those reaching (even when it is not always obvious) and help in any way they can.
There are many times I talk with students because of what they have written in my class (or left on a note on the floor). Has it stopped another killing, I don't know. But I do know that those students were helped and found more help because of my actions. Is it hard? Most definitely. It takes time and effort to reach out to those in need, but it is worth the effort.
This is my plea. Know that what you say does impact people. Respect others and yourself enough to not demean, insult, or hurt those around you. If you do (accidental or not), try to fix it. We are all human, recognize that humanity means imperfection.
The question isn't what God wants for us. It is what we want for ourselves. There is no doubt that this a tremendous tragedy for not only the ones involved, but also for the ones who are not involved. This ordeal has implications that reach beyond this world.
It is as much spiritual as it is corpreal. The evil done on this day far outweighs some of the good, yet eventually the good will bounce back. But you must realize, that in this world, there will never be a total reign of Good over evil, nor will Evil reign over Good. It is a constant balnace. Right and wrong, yin and yang. There cannot be one without the other. When one act overshadows the other, than inevitably the latter will overshadow the other when it is time. Balance is always the key.
Belief in a higher power has nothing to do with it. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, athiest, Buddhist, etc., the main picture is to know that the world will even itself out in the end.
While the country mourns for the people at VT, know within your heart, or within your God, that everything will eventually turn out to be better in the end.
After the Columbine massacre, many evangelical Christians argued that the event showed the "mistake" of doing away with mandatory prayer in public schools. For years they peddled the story of Cassie Bernall's alleged Christian martyrdom, even though the story had been debunked very shortly after the massacre.
Events like Columbine and Virginia Tech do not prove anything about anyone's religious beliefs. Forcing kids to pray in public schools wouldn't have stopped Klebold from being depressive and suicidal, nor would it have stopped Harris from being psychotic. I'm a parent and I completely understand the terror that many people feel when they learn of such horrific events. I can identify with the desperate need to find some magic cure-all to prevent future school violence. Whatever the solution, it would definitely not be using public schools to push someone's religious beliefs on my children.
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Sadly, reports of such evil acts have become all too common in our time. Sadder still, these reports are often eclipsed by accounts of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and terrorism. “At its worst, this has been Satan’s century,” said an editorial published in 1995. “In no previous age have people shown so great an aptitude, and appetite, for killing millions of other people for reasons of race, religion or class.”
At the same time, humans are polluting the air, fouling the earth, depleting its resources, and driving countless species toward extinction. Can mankind overcome all these evils and make the world a better, safer place? Or would attempting to do so be like trying to sweep back the tide with a broom? Said a professor who has written extensively on the subject of evil: “I have had a very strong need to make a difference in the world, to improve the world. But the world is not visibly improving.”
To some extent, this ever-deteriorating situation can be attributed to human imperfection. (Romans 3:23) Still, the scale of evil, its ubiquity, and its relentlessness seem out of proportion to the malice that can be attributed to humans alone. Is it possible that mankind is being manipulated by an unseen but powerful and sinister force? If so, what is it, and how can we protect ourselves?
In the first century, many of the Jews were awaiting the arrival of the promised Messiah. (John 6:14) When Jesus came on the scene, he brought comfort and enlightenment. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, tamed the elements, even raised the dead. (Matthew 8:26; 14:14-21; 15:30, 31; Mark 5:38-43) He also spoke the sayings of Jehovah and held out the promise of everlasting life. (John 3:34) By what he said and did, Jesus fully demonstrated that he was the Messiah, the one to liberate mankind from sin and all its evil consequences.
Logically, the Jewish religious leaders should have been the first to welcome Jesus, listen to him, and joyfully accept his direction. Yet, they did not. Instead, they hated him, persecuted him, and conspired to kill him.—Mark 14:1; 15:1-3, 10-15.
Jesus rightly condemned those reprehensible men. (Matthew 23:33-35) However, he recognized that there was someone else who must share the blame for the evil in their hearts. He said to them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44) Though Jesus acknowledged that humans are capable of wicked acts, he pointed to the very source of evil—Satan the Devil
The extent of Satan’s evil influence is revealed at 1 John 5:19, which states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” The Devil is maneuvering mankind into a tempest of increasing woes. In fact, he is more determined than ever to do harm. Why? Because he and the demons were evicted from heaven after God’s Kingdom was established in 1914. Regarding this eviction, the Bible foretold: “Woe for the earth . . . , because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:7-12)
Satan wields his influence over mankind today primarily by promoting a spirit that governs the way that people think and act. Accordingly, Ephesians 2:2 calls the Devil “the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit [or, dominant attitude] that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” Instead of encouraging godly fear and goodness, this demonic “air” breeds rebellion against God and his standards. Satan and his demons thus promote and aggravate the evil perpetrated by humans.
For good reason, the wise man Solomon admonished: “More than all else that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart, for out of it are the sources of life.” (Proverbs 4:23)
Right hearted ones need to shield their hearts from the love of violence, for the Devil knows that “anyone loving violence [Jehovah] certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5) Satan does not have to turn you into a bloodthirsty villain to make you an enemy of God; he simply needs to nurture within you a love of violence. It is no coincidence that violence, often with occult themes, saturates the popular media.
The forces of evil can appear formidable. The Bible points out that those striving to please God “have a wrestling . . . against the wicked spirit forces,” in addition to a struggle with their own imperfect flesh. To win the struggle and to have God’s favor, we need to take advantage of the many provisions from God.—Ephesians 6:12; Romans 7:21-25.
These provisions include God’s holy spirit, the most powerful force in the universe. The apostle Paul wrote to first-century Christians: “We received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God.” (1 Corinthians 2:12) Those led by God’s spirit grow to love what God loves and hate what he hates. (Amos 5:15) One can receive holy spirit primarily through prayer, Bible study—the Bible itself being a product of holy spirit—and wholesome association with those who truly love God.—Luke 11:13; 2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 10:24, 25.
By taking advantage of these divine provisions, one can make a start in putting on “the complete suit of armor from God,” the only sure protection against “the machinations of the Devil.” (Ephesians 6:11-18) Making full use of these provisions is more urgent now than ever before.
If you yearn for an end to evil you can take comfort in the promises contained in the Bible. No other book exposes the very author of evil, Satan, and no other book shows how he and all his wicked works will finally be eradicated. Take in accurate knowledge of the Bible so as to protect yourself against Satan’s evil influences now and to secure the hope of living in a world free from evil.—Psalm 37:9, 10.
July 16, 2008 11:31 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Everything that happens in this universe is uncaused. It is the belief in a cause that leads to the experience of cause.
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August 31, 2007 3:29 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I'm a recent convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My faith views the horrible incident as an expression of one’s own free agency. Heavenly Father does not have any control over our conscience and free will in any way what so ever. He has the power to influence us for the better through The Holy Spirit. However, Satan also has the power to influence us through the flesh. It’s ultimately up to the individual to make the choice by which he will be judge on the Last Day.
July 15, 2007 6:25 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BTW here in Sydney, Australia, it was already 23 April 2007 when I posted my message on WP.
April 23, 2007 4:32 AM | Report Offensive Comment
On 23 April 2003 I was given a new lease on life. I was hit by a car and could have been killed instantly as many thousands are. I suffered internal head injury and lost my short term memory for about twenty four hours (I didn't know where I lived, gave a different phone number as contact, didn't remember any details of my life of the past year etc). I ended up with a torn knee ligament. But eight weeks later I was back to normal, and my knee recovered fully with physiotherapy in only twelve weeks. All I have in memory of that near death experience is a small superficial scar on my right knee, one that I could have got by bruising it by scraping it against something rough. Even worse than death would have been to end up with physical and/or mental disability, and/or ugly scars which would have done little for my self confidence as a woman etc.
Why did God spare my life? Why didn't I die like thousands do in similar situations? I don't know. All I know is that I am alive by a sheer miracle. I thank God and accept the gift of a new lease on life. It is a mystery and I do not seek the answers. But it reminded me that death could come at any time, unannounced and I need to be prepared.
Reflecting about that accident today, reminds of me of the need to keep death in mind as I live my life - every single day. Not as a morbid preoccupation, but as a way to bring life into the right perspective, to reassess my priorities. In the face of death, life takes on a new meaning. Priorities begin to shift, and things that once seemed so important fade into insignificance. Things long neglected take on a new urgency. The reason to live becomes stronger and the reason becomes more purposeful. Rearranging the priorities of life accordingly saves energy and time.
This moment is all I have. Who knows what may happen in the next? I would like death to be a mere passing on to another level of consciousness, effortlessly, like opening a door to another room, a room much better than the one I am in. Yes, and I live in the hope of meeting my God and all the loved ones who have gone before me and all who will come after me. Yes, I long to live in the world where there are no tears and no parting.
April 22, 2007 11:59 PM | Report Offensive Comment
"God" "wills" this or that. "God" "wants" this or that. "God" is "tormented" by His Childrens' behavior.
Grow up. Can't you all see how anthropomorphically silly and juvenile your language is here?
"Lord", "King" "Subjects"... LOL. it's all so feudal.
Desperation to explain the unexplainable. Wishful Thinking fallacy ad nauseum.
April 21, 2007 1:22 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Right up front, let's be clear. God did not will what happened yesterday at Virginia Tech. Period.
As a pastor, I have said, when similar things happen, that for some mysterious, divine, impossible-to-understand reason, God "allowed" it to happen. So, why do I get such a sour taste in my mouth when I say those words? If God is the sort who "allowa" people to be slaughtered in what most assume to be a very safe, and normally serene, environment, then I wonder if I want to continue to believe in such a God.
Then, I look at the culture in which I live. A culture which idolizes guns and violence. A culture which puts anger up on a pedastal and doesn't dare knock it off. A culture which gives assent to the notion that we can carry around our grudges as long as we want, and act on them whenever, wherever we want. A culture in which every form of media is obsessed with death, with killing, with brutality. (And don't think that the church is free of such a culture, of such dark emotions. Demonization and vilification of those who disagree with us is standard practice.)
And by my watching such movies, and reading such books, and playing such video games I acquiesce to this culture. And by my silence, I encourage the culture to continue on this now-beyond-reckless course. By my silence, I allow these things to take place.
So, maybe it is the other way around. Maybe God wonders about continuing to believe in me, about believing in us, about believing in those who have been created in the divine image.
Yet, the evidence is there that even if this is
what God is wondering, God chooses to be involved with us. We see it in the flood of helpers who are at the campus today, and tomorrow, and beyond - the grief counselors, the therapists, the religious leaders, the doctors, the nurses - to bring healing and hope to a devastated community. And long after the anchors, and the TV crews, and the reporters have packed up their equipment and gone after the next story, they will still be there.
I do not believe that what happened at Virginia Tech was God's will. But I do believe that God wills healing, wholeness, and new life for all those shattered by this tragedy. I do believe
God wills that the helpers will never, ever have
to respond to another crisis like this.
And I do believe God wills that the silence stops.
Thom
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April 21, 2007 12:18 PM | Report Offensive Comment
God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.
God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.
Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.
April 21, 2007 11:10 AM | Report Offensive Comment
My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:
1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.
2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.
3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.
4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.
The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.
Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?
My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.
Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.
Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?
Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.
Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.
April 21, 2007 4:51 AM | Report Offensive Comment
My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:
1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.
2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.
3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.
4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.
The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.
Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?
My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.
Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.
Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?
Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.
Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.
April 21, 2007 4:46 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Well, we have now been told that Cho had severe mental illness. So I have copied and pasted my post from earlier as it got buried.
And to answer the question above about my faith. I don't have one. So I use common sense, reason and rationality. Hense forth I don't blame these tragedies on sin. My rationality says gun control is not the answer either. So it only stands to reason anyone that commits such horrendous acts is mentally unfit.
My origianl post follows:
These tragedies upset us, scare us and we want answers to how this could happen. But what people really want are quick fixes. Prayer. Gun control. More security measures taken in the schools and public buildings.
These tragedies scream out MENTAL ILLNESS, but we chalk it off to gun control and metal detectors and then pray that this does not happen again and then go about our lives. They are band-aid fixes for a larger problem which is of course mental illness.
The stigmatization of mental illness many times prevents people to seek and accept help. Many of these illness can be successfully controlled with proper medication and therapy. Therapy can help you to understand your illness, to accept it, deal with it and learn how to recognize when you are not doing so well and may need to make some medication changes. Therapy can help you to learn how to interact with people better and more often. Get you out of that loner and isolation mode. Allow you to find people you can trust and hope that they can and will recognize when you may not be doing so well when you yourself may not be able to recognize it right away.
And even if a person does know they need help, many times they cannot afford the therapy and medication that is needed. Even with health care, many of the medications are still very expensive.
I personally take three different medications. As for the cost with health care and a prescription plan it cost me 180.00 a month at best. Without either it would be close to 1000.00 a month. As far as the stigmatization of those two words *mental illness*, there is no price tag for that.
We need more public awareness, understanding, acceptance and education for mental illness. We need more accessability to mental health care and its options. The drug companies have to stop charging 5.00 a pill for something that probably costs them 5 cents to manufacture. At least for low income, no health insurance patients.
All of us have to stop looking for the quick fixes and take the time and trouble to address the larger problem or we are doomed to see it repeat itself over and over again as it has been doing.
Fall back on your faith, pray all you need to but please, please insist that we as a society address the larger issue. Please, for all of our sakes.
April 20, 2007 11:33 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Cat in the Hat,
Just to verify something. The earliest know copies of the NT were 125 a.d. as a collection even though the original writings were shown to be within 5 years of Christ's death. There were 24,000 copies in all by 125 a.d. All in comparison their marginal rate of error was 99.9% and only errors consisting of minor annotations which did not render the message in any way. In comparison the closest amount of copies were by Homer (Iliad) at 648 with a greater amount of error between them all. I did a little research on that awhile ago. I thought it not only very interesting but also points to how reliable the Bible really is. No other ancient writings were even close to accuracy and length of time in between events (to assume legend). Take care. Just thought I would share what I found.
God bless
April 20, 2007 9:40 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Following every disaster (Virginia Tech, 9/11, etc.) come the inevitable stories of individuals who would have been at the scene of the tragedy, but were spared by a fortuitously late train, a missed alarm clock, sixth sense, or the like. It seems odd to me that such individuals, and their families, routinely praise the God that was looking out for them, without damning that same God for failing those who died, or suffered.
I also notice that in these circumstances, when the question "how could God allow this" is posed, God is given a complete pass on the premise that the tragedy was due entirely to the gift of free will -- apparently something with which even an omnipotent God cannot interfere.
You can hardly turn a page of the bible without finding episodes in which God works miracles to resolve fairly modest grievances. One wonders why this same God hasn’t pulled out this bag of tricks in the face of the holocaust, the Virginia Tech shootings, 9/11, (or any of a host of other hideous circumstances)?
Even if you believe that an omnipotent God couldn’t have interfered with the free will of the shooter, why would anyone be content to believe that an omnipotent God (who created the universe, parted the waters, turned staffs into snakes and burned magic bushes) couldn’t have simply made the gun jam?
April 20, 2007 6:09 PM | Report Offensive Comment
GW -
Right, diss me on a couple of typos. Really substantive. But, whatever helps you avoid the point.
April 20, 2007 3:35 PM | Report Offensive Comment
In 2005, four young Mounties were ambushed and killed by a police-hating gunman. The youngest, Peter Schiemann, son of a pastor, was the first to be laid to rest. The following snippet from a Canadian website contains a quote spoken by his father, Rev. Don Schiemann.
"It goes to what theologians call "the problem of evil." How can an all-powerful, all-loving God allow such a thing to happen? For believers like Don Schiemann, a Lutheran minister from Stony Plain, Alta., and father of 25-year-old Peter Schiemann, the youngest of the four slain RCMP officers, there is an answer. "God grants to people free will," he said just two days after the fatal shootings, "and with free will, some people choose to do great evil."" (http://tinyurl.com/22v97p and others)
April 20, 2007 3:14 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Sorry need to correct myself-- the dates of the earliest known copies of the documents is the shortest with the NT documents and several hundred or thousand of years for other major ancient works.. the NT documents are also the most numerous (5000+) compared with <10 copies for things like Ceasar Gallic wars, etc.
April 20, 2007 2:59 PM | Report Offensive Comment
To the question about 40-50 year timelag between the writing of the New Testament gospels and the time of Christs life: 40-50 years is a very SHORT length of time for historical writings. The veracity of other writings which many take for granted were actually written 1000+ years after the events. check out one quick link for starters:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html#writings
April 20, 2007 1:02 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????
I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....
Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murdering another is wrong" ...without an eternal standard????
Please respond in "real" English how your faith tradition responds
April 20, 2007 9:38 AM | Report Offensive Comment
BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????
I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....
Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murder another is wrong" without an eternal standard????
April 20, 2007 9:37 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember the sixties when we dumped people out of mental institutions to become the homeless people sleeping on grates in the cities, and dying of exposure in a few years. The idea was that mistakes were made, and some were institutionalized who should not be. But we now let people who are in the deepest mental troubles continue to stay in the community, and even sell them military grade weapons. The caring community back then grew out of the faith communities of the time. It had its problems with busy bodies, and was too constricting in some ways, but it did take care of the children better than we do now. In the Gospel according to Matthew Jesus says:
‘When did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
‘Assuredly, I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these
My brethren, you did it to Me.’
It is time to return to caring for the hurt, the damaged, the needy, the sick, and those who face trials alone. We can't create a perfect world but we are called to make it better when we can. Maybe nothing anyone could have done would have stopped Cho, but maybe people weren't even allowed to try, either.
April 19, 2007 10:36 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.
One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.
It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”
Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.
What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.
It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.
April 19, 2007 6:57 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.
One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.
It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”
Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.
What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.
It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.
April 19, 2007 6:54 PM | Report Offensive Comment
GW :
"BobbyG...what do you base your "belief" statement on that murdering someone is wrong?"
_____
That's SO easy. Beyond its general ulitlitarian virutes, simple Kantian ethical reciprocity -- a.k.a. "Golden Rule."
C'mon, you gotta do better than that trite insinuation.
"Nature may indeed be 'red in tooth and claw,' but it is not merely so."
- Sam Harris
April 19, 2007 4:51 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Thank you Benita Hawkins for that website referral. I just posted a prayer.
April 19, 2007 4:41 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BobbyG...what do you base your "belief" statement on that murdering someone is wrong?
April 19, 2007 4:34 PM | Report Offensive Comment
The recent tragedy at Virginia Tech University has
provoked all the usual responses: Why did this happen?
Why wasn't security on that campus better? Who's gonna
be responsible for this? Why weren't the people who
were killed warned ahead of time? How could someone do
such a thing? How could someone be so evil? Why is the
world so crazy? Why wasn't Jesus name spoken at the
Public Memorial?
The same as it ever was.(ref: Talking Heads, "Same as
it Ever Was") The same old tired questions we ask in
the face of things we do not understand. Similar,
tired reactivity to things we do not want to believe,
we ourselves, are connected to. The same news outlets
saying in their unending liturgy of doom, "the world
is gone to Hell in a hand basket."
Baloney on all that nonsense. The wrong questions are
being asked. The vision for how to move forward is too
restricted by poor leadership. Poor leadership in
every corner of our common life as sojourners in this
land.
What other questions might be asked? I don't know
exactly. But, I'm willing to look deeper. Are you?
What might have made a difference in this situation?
What was this guy so angry with? Was anybody
listening? Was anybody staying connected with this
child of God during his descent into sin, evil and
ultimately, Hell on Earth?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But, I am
willing to look at how we might reorient ourselves and
our culture on how to respond next time. From the
beginning, and human history reveals, that we should
all realize, there will be a next ONE. We might think
about responding to the next ONE rather, than staying
completely fixated on what went wrong with the last
ONE? Maybe?
Holy and gracious Father: In your infinite love you
made us for yourself; and, when we had fallen into sin
and become subject to evil, you, in your mercy, sent
Jesus Christ, your only and eternal Son, to to share
our human nature, to live and die as one of us, to
reconcile us to you, the God and Father of all(ref:
BCP, p. 362).
I don't have much stamina for the question, "How could
someone be so evil?" That implies that "one of us"
could do no such a thing. The beginning of the next
ONE lies in that neurotic notion.
We all have the capacity to do evil. There is a
trembling terror in every human heart. How we respond
to that reality is the determining point. This is
place in the geography of our common life where we
each choose between acting in a holy way, or, in an
evil way. This is where we choose in each moment how
to respond to our perceptions of the world as we move
through it. We can move through it with grace or in
fear. The graceful approach has to be practiced in
order to transform the terrors into trusting faith.
The fearful practice an approach which belives the
inner terror and believes the world is a very
dangerous place. This is the place where some choose
to repay evil with evil.
What might the faithful of God hope to, in their
graceful practices, offer to those who get themselves
backed into corners of darkness? How can we help those
in darkness see Light. Could we tell them that maybe
some of their perceptions are right? The world does
have sufficient evil lurking about that the assessment
of, "their is danger around every corner;" and,
"people are against me," is not totally insane. Could
we encourage people feeling burdened and overwhelmed
to be brave in their desire to fight the status quo.
They really are just want things to be different than
they are now. Maybe encouraging the ONE who is beaten
down to resist the system oppressing them and crushing
them, is more helpful than telling the One to "fix
yourself." We could encourage them and offer join
them, and with them, not accept the way things are,
because the way things are isn't good enough
anymore.(ref: Nichole Nordeman, Brave)
When you are backed into your corner, feeling
defeated, alone and wounded and hopeless, did someone
telling you what you should do, or, ought to do, help
much? When you are frightened and overwhelmed; when
your soul is wrapped around an axle which is making
the wrapping tighter with every turn of the spin
cycle; how easy is it for you to see Light. I usually
need someone to help me unwrap from the axle of
hopelessness.
Is the world really so dark and dangerous? Do we live
in place that the only way to change things is to back
into a corner and make a big mess of ourselves. Or, is
it so bad in this place that our best choice is to
back into the corner until we explode out into the
world, making a mess everyone else has to deal with,
when we've had enough.
The world is a mess. Always was. I don't know about
you, but, I think we live in world filled with beauty
and hope and glory. At the same time, I, too, see evil
amongst us every day, as well. The system oppresses
every one of us. No matter where we try to position
ourselves the system opresses. I am hopeful you, too,
choose not to retreat to dark alcoves and narrow
corners of perception. Those alcoves seem very crowded
these days. Too crowded for me anyway.
Next time you mosey past one of those moments of evil;
next time you peer into that darkness and recognize a
precious soul of God's making, with still enough Light
to reflect Light out to you - could you say, to the
ONE in there, "Hello, in there"(ref: John Prine "Hello
In There"). Next time you recognize there is a soul in
there crying out; "I love you, I'm not gonna crack, I
kill you, I'm not gonna crack" (ref: Nirvana, Kurt
Cobain, "Lithium"); could you say, "Yes the system is
taking all our hopes and dreams and making them stones
around our neck; but, "We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do. We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do"(ref: Coldplay, "Don't Panic").
The ONE in there may crack like Judah/Judas did when
all hope seemed lost. Or, like that precious child/man
of God did last Monday. Or, like Kurt did that lonely
afternoon. Or, like people who move to all sorts of
extreme points of view 'cause, we all trapped in there
at some point in an oppressive system. We can each
choose how to respond to it and how to help those
trapped in it.
The fuel for energizing our resistance to the
oppression is all around us. The glory of God is all
around us. It is in us, always. It is there if we
choose to engage it and be changed into it. It is in
the music that lifts our spirit filled souls. It is in
the prayers we offer to a gracious God in a
celebration/meal in which we are fed even more fuel
for the journey towards hope. It is in the scripture
we believe shows the way to salvation; especially when
we use it to discern His will and not to convince the
other-ONE we know His will.
My perception, from this point of view, is that the
world is not as tough as I/WE generally want to make
it. For me the world is growing less complex. It is my
recognition that we all need ask for the Glory to be
more and more revealed, and, to ask the Creator to
more and more saturate Glory into each one us.
In the geography of that landscape, all we really need
to do is to be better Jews (A people chosen to love
God and to live in Covenant with God in order that the
whole of creation might be blessed.) Live lives which
reflect we know and love a gracious creator. Live
lives which reflect in that knowledge, we are free to
inhabit this land, be prosperous and be loving to
everyONE and everything else. Live lives that offer
true hospitality to those who are very different from
us. Help the wounded know that there is hope. And,
believe that for everyONE of us there may be a Glory,
a hope, that is more immense than we ever dreamed of
or hoped for.
(ref: NicholeNordeman, "What if You're Wrong").
April 19, 2007 2:55 PM | Report Offensive Comment
To all you folks who compare VT Tech to the war in Iraq: Don't mix apples and oranges!
The young people killed at VT Tech were civilians.
The men and women in Iraq and elsewhere are soldiers in a VOLUNTEER Army/Air Force/Navy/Marines. No one forced them to join. When one joins the military it is understood that one may have to go to war. Regardless of whether you think this war is morally wrong, when you join the military you have to go anywhere they send you.
April 19, 2007 11:03 AM | Report Offensive Comment
VCM wrote:
"When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world. "
My dear, you seem to forget that Satan, just like Jesus, is your God's son. Therefore, your God is directly responsible for all the ills that befall this world.
So perhaps the "Allmighty" is fallible since he is incapable of controlling his offspring?
If that is the case then he can't possibly be in control of this world.
April 19, 2007 10:52 AM | Report Offensive Comment
The Web Site to give God the Thanks and Praise for things not being any worst then they could have been is - www.imnotashametothankyoulord.com - It's only
for Gods Glory.
April 19, 2007 8:55 AM | Report Offensive Comment
There is so much loss in this story that it is a struggle to see what good may come of it in the long run. The loss of so many sparkeling children with futures so bright. These kids and their classmates are the future of the world. The loss of one such is the loss of a world to come from each and every one. When I was a young person in the midwest many years ago, every family had a gun, or two, and yet the level of gun violence, especially of this type, was very, very, low.
It seems to me that we live increasingly isolated from each other now, and the community support and mutual caring seems to be getting lost. Constant pressure for more output by robber barons running our industries to enrich themselves, job losses, families with both parents working sixty-hour weeks, fragmented families, troubled kids who no one helps. Where did we think it would lead?
I believe that the communities of faith in the previous century, for all their imperfections of over control and letting people down because they were not perfect instruments of God at all times, at least cared for the children better than this. Perhaps we have lost track of the fact that each child, whether from Korea, or Virginia is sacred. That means being able to recognize when some of us need help, and to act upon it. This troubled young man showed signs of what was to come, but no one was allowed to intervene in a way that would be effective. He lost because of that, and we lost because of that. Thirty-one families lost their most precious sons and daughters because of that. Our society has to care about these losses, and how to minister to those among us who need it, or we are all lost.
April 19, 2007 8:48 AM | Report Offensive Comment
My heart go's out to each one of you and I know the
pain seams never ending, but truly God will get you
and your love ones through it. There is a Web Site
build only to give your Thanks and Praise to God for
their for the grace of God it could have ben worst.
So to God be all Honor and Glory. He will keep your
hearts and minds from harding to.
April 19, 2007 8:46 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Well, my old preacher would say that Godless America brought about this tragedy as divine punishment. Then again, his idea of a Christmas sermon was vilifying the Three Wise Men for inadvertently causing the slaughter of thousands of Hebrew newborns.
Religion should comfort people, not point fingers. Jesus preached love, and Buddhism emphasized harmony with all things. Regardless of the fundamental differences and contradictions between different religions, most people seek them out of peace of mind and communion with a higher power.
I can't explain Cho's actions. I can only hope that people will try to genuinely converse and examine the subject through their respective points of view, RATHER THAN USING IT AS A SOAPBOX TO AGGRESSIVELY BASH THEIR SUPPOSED OPPONENTS (Christians, Atheists, Gun Nuts, Americans and Anti-Americans, I'm looking at all of you).
Now is the time for constructive dialogue, not shameful bickering.
April 19, 2007 5:51 AM | Report Offensive Comment
I watched the news tonight on VTech. They flashed across the screen the pictures of the students that were killed. My heart ached for them and their families.
Then I wondered why the pictures of the dead soldiers from the start of this war till present were not being flashed across the screen daily? Are they any less important?
The answer of course is no. But as someone else said God forbid we wake this country up to the terrible horror being perpetuated in Iraq everyday.
April 19, 2007 12:31 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Jihadist,
It's quite possible that "Ishmael Ax" is a reference to the narrator in "Moby Dick". Cho was an English Lit major, after all. Tell that to the annoying people who are asking you what it means. Like you (or anyone else) has a view on what this guy was thinking.
As for where I think God was in all of this horrible tragedy, I look at the Prof. Livescu, who is as old as my father and has survived a lot more, putting himself between the gunman and his students. I look at the R.A. who responded when the first girl was shot, and got killed. I look at the students who barricaded their classroom doors to protect the others. I see the face of the Divine in them. Because ALL religions have the same basic idea - love your neighbor. Look out for your fellow Humans. Whether they were Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, or something else, these brave souls are heroes.
April 19, 2007 12:23 AM | Report Offensive Comment
My God, how contemptible Americans must look to the rest of the world when they supported an obviously trumped up war - obvious at any rate to anyone who didn't have their fat ass permanently parked at a McDonald's - where hundreds are now being killed every day and the unexpected death of 32 college students is cause for endless hand-wringing and smarmy elocutions.
April 18, 2007 11:59 PM | Report Offensive Comment
VT's Dr. Nikki Giovanni:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsloktqpeQ
April 18, 2007 11:41 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I agree with Karen above (way above - i.e. my faith accepts the absurd) but God needs us to be pragmatic. Lethal weapons create lethal consequences. We need the people (those who will needlessly die because of gun violence) more than we need the Ssecond Amendment. The framers of the Constitution - who were thinking about muskets; were not thinking about the technology of Glocks, AK47s or even Gatling guns. Will there ever be a time when we realize the government is corrupt and everyone needs to take up arms against the authority of the day? How long does this myth need to be perpetuated? Lets use the courts to sue every post office, university, every arms manufacturer, every dealer or importer, everyone or anyone who in some way could have prevented a madman from easily killing an innocent victim.
Drabble
April 18, 2007 11:39 PM | Report Offensive Comment
JM -
My heart equally aches for YOU. I cannot imagine. Nine years ago my first-born child died in my arms after 26 months of cancer hell (see the essay on my website). But, at least I had that time with her. People like you and the VT kin who lose a child suddenly have my total sympathy.
April 18, 2007 11:24 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Dave:
"the question asked how faith explains senseless tragedies like this one. It does not ask other to critique people's faith."
_____
True, but, c'mon, you know threads are gonna wander, and peoples' opinions are gonna get challenged. I think I was pretty much on topic when I first posted at about 1:32 pm.
Now, if you wanna go back to the exact question "how does your faith tradition explain (and respond to) senseless tragedies such as the Virginia Tech shootings," does it my mean MY PERSONAL current 'faith tradition' (a moving target, that; less a tradition than an evolution) or the one I was raised in as a child (Episcopalian)? If it's the latter, I'd said they're probably spewing forth the usual well-meaning, eloquent, -- but ultimately vapid, in the main -- platitudes.
Regarding my own evolved "spiritual" views, I think I've pretty well stated them already during the course of the day. Cho's act was indeed "senseless" morally. The unsatisfying "explanation" is simple: untended acute (and worsening) mental illness + easily available lethal weapons.
Nothing more. All part of the random walk that is life on this planet.
Professor Nikki Giovanni pretty much nailed it yesterday. Worth hearing if you missed it. Probably up on YouTube by now (along with Cho's crazed QuickTime movie rant).
April 18, 2007 11:20 PM | Report Offensive Comment
It is difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend the extreme violence that exploded across the Blacksburg campus earlier this week. In a sense, the best we can do for the survivors is to acknowledge their pain and validate their absolute entitlement to cry. And, when it becomes time to explain the unexplainable, perhaps the best we can do would be to remind them that being human has a terrible cost; each of us is bound to impose meaning on the chaos we witness.
Although they most certainly did not choose this awful event to become a turning point in their lives, the survivors will be in a position to turn that madness into something meaningful, by the choices they will make, the lives they will choose to live and the values they will choose to live by. And, perhaps in that small way, some part of those who have died will still remain alive.
April 18, 2007 11:09 PM | Report Offensive Comment
My heart aches for the families who lost their loved ones at Virginia Tech. As a Mother whose child died tragically in a car accident, I understand the shock and grief the families are experiencing. Losing a child is one of the most difficult trials that one can go through in life. We must have compassion for the families, respect their privacy and right to grieve. I can only imagine what they must be going through right now. It will be extremely difficult because of media coverage replaying the events over and over. I understand this but I pray the media, reporters and others will tread gently out of respect for the families. It has been ten years since my son died but the Virginia Tech tragedy brings it all back, as if it happened yesterday. You never get over the loss of a child. Let's remember this as we remember the loss of such promising children. It could have been one of ours and how would you feel.
April 18, 2007 11:07 PM | Report Offensive Comment
The Virginia Tech killing spreee is senseless and tragic.
And what is it with so many non-Muslim friends who e-mailed me all over asking what "Ismail Ax" on Cho's arm means? And linking his killing spree to Islam when he stated in the video he is dying like Jesus?
Yes, this is also senseless, the allusions and speculations of connecting his killing spree to Islam based on "Ismail Ax".
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of Cho and to his family too, who are equally shocked and grieved by what happened.
Cho may be mentally ill, but how can one forgive the "sane" and "sober" for such speculations on "Ismail Ax" whatever that was and why Cho had it on his body.
It is time we turn to the living dealing with the deaths of their loved ones.
April 18, 2007 10:52 PM | Report Offensive Comment
There are approximately 15,000 homicides with guns committed every year. Thus, every single day of the year on the average, 41 lives are taken. It is no less a tragedy that these 41 lives have been lost in 41 incidents than the tragedy of 32 lives lost in one. But one set is seen as a fact of life; the other as a horrific event. Oh, well.
April 18, 2007 10:49 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I found Virginia Tech as a very friendly university and it is the friendly atmosphere in Blacksburg which surprised me. I have heard tales about discrimination against foreigners in Texas and other southern states. Virginia is a pretty sober place.
I also found majority of the faculty trying to help the foreign students as they understand the difficulties faced by Asians and Africans. Foreigners, especially the Dutch and Greek faculty were there to help me whenever the situation went ugly. The International Students Dean Dr Massey was an especially friendly person and told me to come him at times of difficulty, and there was help at hand for whoever who wanted it.
Unfortunately the English Department in Virginia Tech has failed on this occasion. They should have sorted his problems outright without picking on him and isolating him.
April 18, 2007 10:36 PM | Report Offensive Comment
To say that I have a faith would be misleading. I am an Atheist and atheism is more of a mindset, not a faith. Nevertheless, I feel the need to respond.
When tragedy occurs in anyones life, it is important to begin putting the pieces together. I feel one of those pieces is why this young man felt isolated in a predominately Christian country. What does this say about Christianity? What does it say about the rest of society (muslim, Hindu, Atheist and other religions alike)?
What this points to is a lack of tolerance in our society and the only way to change such a society is to relinquish faith. Although it has obvious benefits--some people become more kind, and many churches, mosques, etc. attempt to help others--in general religion divides us. It says, 'be what I am or go to hell.'
How many people, I wonder, looked at this young man and thought him different, and different is bad. I know it is in our nature as humans to want to congregate with people who look like and act like us.
You would think that religion would cause us to move past this, but instead it divides us even deeper by insinuating that eternal life (a long time) will await us and if we don't join this particular faith, we are doomed.
Instead of looking toward faith to guide us in times of tragedy, we should look toward our environment and ask some serious questions. Questions like: how did our society cause this? What types of values are we instilling in our children to make them blossom into killers? And the most important question: How can we create a culture where everyone feels loved, nurtured and respected--regardless of their faith or lack there of?
April 18, 2007 10:23 PM | Report Offensive Comment
the question asked how faith explains senseless tragedies like this one. It does not ask other to critique people's faith.
April 18, 2007 10:17 PM | Report Offensive Comment
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
April 18, 2007 10:01 PM | Report Offensive Comment
When our government has clearly demonstrated that violence can be used as an option for attempting to solve a totally human-type of problem such as our invasion of Iraq, some troubled people opt to use it themselves to solve their real or perceived problems.
April 18, 2007 10:01 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Throw away that idea of god, which is nothing more than a projected ego, and replace it with the image of child. Then, make children the real Gods and the rest of humanity the angels. Respect people for what they are: there's nothing more mysterious and yet more wonderful than a human being, at least in this part of the Universe.
And none of them has ever seen a god....
April 18, 2007 9:54 PM | Report Offensive Comment
My faith accepts the absurd. I don't believe in a personal God but rather something that transcends existence without intervening it it. What happened at VT was absurd in some ways in that it cannot be fit into any pattern of meaning. The motives that fed it are not meaningful to anyone but the person who did it. Nothing can be offered that would explain it to the victims of their families. The only thing I can offer is that it will eventually become part of a past, a past filled in by events and people who do have meaning. There will always be a hole there but the hole will be surrounded by significance, by friends, by family and, yes, by love.
Karen
April 18, 2007 9:28 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.
April 18, 2007 9:27 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Christianity is a religion of resentment, as Nietsche observed. Look at the delight they take in the idea of the Rapture where millions they occasionally claim to love will be exposed to terrible suffering, much to their obvious delight.
April 18, 2007 8:05 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I got to this thread by clicking my mouse on the face of a man who's the leader of the Southern Baptists. Ironic, since he's a major promulgator of ant-gay hatred and its consequent violence.
April 18, 2007 7:51 PM | Report Offensive Comment
“When will the Churches use their pulpits to rise up against the sick American fascination with guns?” posted by:RAS
First of all I think we need to focus on the families and friends of those involved in this senseless crime of selfish emotional greed and ignorance. I think we should also take a moment and recognize the senseless killing of others and in greater numbers of those in Iraq, Africa and the rest of the world, victims of less opportunity and ability then our own. All instances are sad and equally just as wrong. Victims that will not even have the opportunity to attend college much less the misfortune of getting shot in one.
However since the topic has arisen and its going to be the only thing talked about in the media until it becomes as desensitized as Iraq lets try and face the issues of why churches should rise up against guns since this person is Sooooo passionate about gun control because he saw a news broadcast yesterday.
I would assume they will rise up after they are satisfied that every witch and sorcerer has been put to death for their thought crimes. Once we have stable control of the demonic you can be sure churches will not have further use of weaponry. Of course we could argue that we can still burn witches at the stake with little more than a box of matches and kindling. What a grand Idea we can pursue Satan and get rid of the guns in one fell swoop!
(excerpt from full Article on Website)http://www.myspace.com/dont_crash
"Churches against Guns"
T.C.
April 18, 2007 7:39 PM | Report Offensive Comment
God is the Politican's escape card. When the Leaders talk of these great tragic events in a Nation's life, it's "we pray God will reach out with his everlasting love to the relatives of the victims." What he is really saying is " my Government and I are in no way responsible for this." or the buck doesn't stop here. Its good political sense to have an unreachable , uncontactable,unproveable God where the buck stops. Helps keep the suckers in line and the myriads of God representatives off welfare.
April 18, 2007 7:34 PM | Report Offensive Comment
DAVID: "And obviously with all that this world is going through, wars, school shooting, iraq, darfur, humanity as a whole really has used morality good huh? Wow, do we need God more than ever these days."
_____
"need God more than ever"???
Well, "His" track record to date doesn't exactly inspire confidence, I would think. Back when "God" was a much bigger deal in the daily lives of humans than is now the apparent case, barbarity ran amuck with gruesome abandon just as today. Only, today, the tools of cruelty are much more effective.
Look: Is there "a Supreme Being"?
Well, yeah, it oughta be clear on just minimal logical reflection. Some all-encompassing "thing" must 'be,' some infinite "Is-ness" surely 'is.' (To the extent that human language can even begin to articulate that which encompasses us and the rest of "creation." In fact, the very notion of "creation" is a human cognitive construct. Like I said in a much earlier post, the universe doesn't owe us any explanations. That we continue to demand them via fallacies such as "Wishful Thinking" is OUR problem.)
Some infinite "thing" obviously "be" -- even if it's "an illusion," even THAT would necessarily "be."
So, I take an ineffable "Supreme Being" as a given. But, that's a LONG way from the putatively consequent logical necessity of some anthropomorphic "God" who has a "will" and "demands" and "wishes" for "His" "creation."
All pretty primitive, in my view.
I find it interesting that we talk about "the infinite" and then promptly (and quixotically) start trying to put borders around it, trying to define it.
A waste of time.
I would never murder anyone. And I don't need some "God" to keep me from doing so.
April 18, 2007 7:21 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BobbyG,
Yeah your right Bobby. Individually it was nobody elses fault for this tragedy. I was just referring to sin in general. But individually we are all to be accountable for our actions.
And obviously with all that this world is going through, wars, school shooting, iraq, darfur, humanity as a whole really has used morality good huh? Wow, do we need God more than ever these days.
April 18, 2007 6:48 PM | Report Offensive Comment
David wrote:
"To Frank and whoever thinks God is responsible for tragedy."
David then recites a handful of self-exculpatory Bible verses.
Isn't that convenient!? It reminds me of the Republics who beat the drums for an illegal war in 2002 and now blame the then-Democratic minority for not being more forceful in opposing their folly.
Isn't the Biblical god/mindset wonderful? God created EVERYTHING, is omniscient and omnipresent, yet any screw-up that happens in the world is man's fault, not god's. And how do we know this? Why, god himself told us we're to blame.
As someone said above, that's fine logic for 5-year-olds, but it cuts no mustard in an adult view of the world.
April 18, 2007 6:48 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Why are so many trying to give a religious explanation to this tragedy?
No trying will resolve it in any case.
Do not try to rationalize it except through the illness of an individual.
April 18, 2007 6:45 PM | Report Offensive Comment
DAVID: "God originally created life to be peaceful and harmonious with God, but man (Adam) chose otherwise and created sin. Definition of sin: to miss the mark. Yep we miss the mark with sin. It seperates us from God. Until we accept Jesus we cannot be forgiven and will be judged accordingly.
So, it wasn't God's fault in Va. Tech. It was OUR fault as Man."
____
Yeah, this scary crap really works for 5 year olds. But, at some point, it helps to actually grow up and become a competent moral agent without need of comic-book story crutches.
The "fault" at VT was Cho's, period (assuming he had substantive cognitive capacity to parse right from wrong).
April 18, 2007 6:35 PM | Report Offensive Comment
To Frank and whoever thinks God is responsible for tragedy:
Romans 5:12-21
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam's fault. Stupid apple tree!! God originally created life to be peaceful and harmonious with God, but man (Adam) chose otherwise and created sin. Definition of sin: to miss the mark. Yep we miss the mark with sin. It seperates us from God. Until we accept Jesus we cannot be forgiven and will be judged accordingly.
So, it wasnt God's fault in Va. Tech. It was OUR fault as Man.
God bless
April 18, 2007 6:20 PM | Report Offensive Comment
the monotheisms are not compatible with events such as this. not that you can't work out some book-length rationalization in terms of free will and so on, but that events like vatech display the world as morally indifferent. that the world is created by a wholly good and all-powerful being just doesn't give an honest sense of our reality. try what happened in iraq today; or to explain natural disasters through free will or sin.
April 18, 2007 6:18 PM | Report Offensive Comment
We, as believers, frequently forget something very important: that the will of God, with Its divine message, cannot be understood by anything but by the language of Love. The reason for the existence of evil, for instance, can only be understood by someone who is in direct contact with the presence of Love.
There is no reasoning and not argument, despite of how subtle they might be, that can even come close to apprehending the truth. Reason, to be sure, has its place, but this should be only to provide protection for the innocence of Love: Like the hammer that helps to provide a roof over our heads: very useful, indeed, but incapable of instilling harmony between the individuals living underneath it.
Reason, for instance, would question the purpose of repeating a prayer over and over again; but the person who is in Love needs and hears only one word which repeats eternally. How could reason see this?
To believe that we are going to understand God’s will by memorizing every passage of our sacred books and by finding all the logical conections between each part, is like dissecting the smile of a child frame by frame to find out why it inspires tenderness when we see it. Are we going to ever discover anything this way? Isn’t the sacrifice of one's own needs for the realization of the divine will the greatest example of Love? Could we understand such sacrifice by connecting the dots?
We spend too much time trying to prove the validity of our beliefs through the laws of reason and empirical evidence, and thus, we become apologetics and try to show that the latest scientific advances are in agreement with our creed. But to the eyes of Love, this has no consequence. Every interpretation is tainted by separation. Love, when it recognizes itself, rises above reason and ceases to look for its guidance. Love then knows itself completely.
Doubts about the degree of correspondence, or even the level of cohesion between Love and whatever the empirical reality might be, poses no danger to Love here. Love is its own witness and has no need for any footstool. There is no need for questions. No need for proofs.
And then, when everything becomes this quiet and still, we'll know why God permits such tragedies.
April 18, 2007 6:17 PM | Report Offensive Comment
DAVID: "I encourage you to continue to do good things, but you must know that salvation does not come by works but by the grace of God given to us through Jesus, in faith alone..."
____
Sorry, dude, I just don't believe that neurotic juvenile crap.
April 18, 2007 6:12 PM | Report Offensive Comment
The rationalizations by the religious folk on here is downright comical. If there were a god up there that let all these kids die so miserably, then does he really DESERVE to be worshipped? I think not.
God is a fairy tale. It's time for you all to grow up.
April 18, 2007 6:06 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Hell Bobby,
According to David...You can sell all your possesions and feed the hungry for the rest of your life, but the Bible teaches that all you need to do is believe in Jesus Christ.
Man have you been wasting your time being a good guy! According to this, you can do whatever you like as long as you believe in Christ! Yippeeeeee!
April 18, 2007 6:05 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BobbyG,
you said,
Right. I do not "know God," but I have been a loyal husband of 33 years, a steadfast friend to many, never committed any crimes or engaged in any violence, don't cheat on my taxes, give thousands to charity every year, etc, etc.
Ephesian 2:8-7
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
I encourage you to continue to do good things, but you must know that salvation does not come by works but by the grace of God given to us through Jesus, in faith alone.
You can sell all your possesions and feed the hungry for the rest of your life, but the Bible teaches that all you need to do is believe in Jesus Christ.
God bless
April 18, 2007 5:56 PM | Report Offensive Comment
VCM: "When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods..."
_____
LOL!!!
Right, What utter adolescent comic-book intellect tripe. I keep my own life and my behavior in my own hands. I have no need of some ludicrous Imaginary Friend to guide my actiing in a constructive manner toward others.
Whatever.
April 18, 2007 5:52 PM | Report Offensive Comment
When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world.
April 18, 2007 5:42 PM | Report Offensive Comment
When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.
It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world.
April 18, 2007 5:39 PM | Report Offensive Comment
SUNNY: "...We must pray for the ones that do not know God, as they are the ones that make the world bad, violent, cold..."
_____
Right. I do not "know God," but I have been a loyal husband of 33 years, a steadfast friend to many, never committed any crimes or engaged in any violence, don't cheat on my taxes, give thousands to charity every year, etc, etc.
More time spent acting constructively against injustice would do a lot more than "praying" to some Imaginary Friend.
Sorry, c'mon. You're just wrong.
April 18, 2007 5:21 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Tim wrote :
"Why doesn't anyone ever point out that the gospels were written 50 to 100 years AFTER Jesus died, and that these "quotes" all you religious types bring up are probably nonsense?"
I and others are constantly making that point on this blog, it just doesn't mean anything to the faithful.
April 18, 2007 5:21 PM | Report Offensive Comment
ABC News is reporting that Cho was found to be mentally ill two years ago by a VA court.
VT Killer Ruled Mentally Ill by Court; Let Go After Hospital Visit
By NED POTTER and DAVID SCHOETZ
April 18, 2007 — A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then the state let him go.
In 2005, after a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho was either a danger to himself or to others — the necessary criteria for a detention order — he was evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1
April 18, 2007 5:19 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Why doesn't anyone ever point out that the gospels were written 50 to 100 years AFTER Jesus died, and that these "quotes" all you religious types bring up are probably nonsense? Why don't you try quoting someone from 50 years ago, without any access to film, tapes etc.. Impossible.
Furthermore, to claim that this man is "evil" is absolutely ridiculous. Look at the last 4 years in Iraq. If anything is "evil" it is this. And yet most of you bible thumpers still go along with this, still sacrifice other people's children, while claiming moral high ground. Oh, and you probably also support a law that says anyone over 12 can buy a rifle.
To think that a prophet like Jesus would support this war and support this administration is turning his whole message upside down for extremely cynical ends.
Get it together all you in the "Christian Wrong", cuz (in the words of the a true prophet, Curtis Mayfield) if there's a hell below, you're all gonna go.
April 18, 2007 5:19 PM | Report Offensive Comment
These tragedies remind me that we do not pray enough. If we obeyed what Our Lady is asking us to do since her first apparition in 1981, in Medjugorje, Bosnia, we would be praying for the ones that DO NOT KNOW THE LOVE OF GOD and therefore do wrong things. We must pray for the ones that do not know God, as they are the ones that make the world bad, violent, cold. If we prayed more, our children would be safer because people would be better. It is simple: the bad guys do wrong things because the good guys do not pray enough. Prayer leads to peace, peace leads to love.
April 18, 2007 5:15 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Jesus:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39)
____
Yeah, swell.
April 18, 2007 4:46 PM | Report Offensive Comment
BRIAN: "...If Cho Seung-Hui had been a devout, true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, this horrible event would have never occurred..."
_____
I don't need an Imaginary Friend to keep me from perpetrating violence. I simply take it as a given that such is wrong.
Moreover, were I gonna follow the constructive teachings of some historical spiritual leader, it'd probably be the Buddha. The long trail of unspeakable horrors pepetrated in the name of this Jesus have no equivalent that that realm.
April 18, 2007 4:43 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Brian,
I am a Christian as well, or what joe nash might refer me to as is a "Jesus freak." Sure, I'm proud to be a Jesus freak. I love that verse you pointed out. I continue to debate with people on here and that verse sums up everything. Even God knew that these times would occur and the more and more I hear about how God could not be real, the more and more that verse comes to life. Thanks for your input and God bless you.
April 18, 2007 4:31 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Most so-called "Christians" (with the exceptions of "radical, extremist" sects such as the Mennonites and the Quakers) seem to embrace the anti-Christ teaching that "evil doers" (including the mentally ill, the mentally retarded and children) should be executed to manifest God's great "love." These same "Christians" usually also embrace the anti-Christ teaching that one should depend on a gun, and not God, for protection. For that reason I gave up on religion fairly early in life.
April 18, 2007 4:26 PM | Report Offensive Comment
All you jesus freaks out there....Cho was mentally unstable, a sick person. So lay off the he was evil, didn't have God part. I feel more sorry for him than the 32 students killed, because Americans kill Iraqi citizens in greater number everyday. That proves many of you Jesus freaks are worse than him - he was a sick person with no control over his actions - unless you jesus freaks are ready to accept that Christianity is truely a sick religion.
April 18, 2007 4:21 PM | Report Offensive Comment
In a very humble and calm manner, I am posting here. As a Christian believer who tries to live as devoutly as possible according to the teachings within the Bible, especially The New Testament, the foundation of true Christianity, I just want to share with everybody that any correct Christian response to this tragedy should be rooted in Holy Scripture, especially The New Testament. My response stems from Paul's in 2 Timothy:
2 Tim. 3:1-5: You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. 2 For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. 3 They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. 4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly (NLT).
Sadly, in my solemn belief, this passage reflects and speaks of our modern society and a social environment that all too frequently helps create situations like those that have occurred recently at VT. Overall, society as a whole has made a choice (and I stress the word “choice”) to disregard the teachings of Jesus Christ and have idolized the human individual instead of living humbling before God.
With that said, I have to emphasize that Scripture, Old and New Testaments, focuses on human choice, especially in terms of how human choice is used to obey or disobey God. Jesus never forced his beliefs and teachings on anybody; however, he did state that there are severe consequences for not adopting and practicing them. Again, human choice is emphasized. If a person truly chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, that person has made the correct choice, the greatest and most important choice of their life.
After this choice is made, the believer must then again choose to commit their life to actively learning and practicing the teachings of Jesus Christ. If a person does this, they themselves will not act in such a tragic manner as Cho Seung-Hui has acted.
With this said, I firmly believe that Cho Seung-Hui made a series of wrong choices that have lead to this horrible event. Is that to say that his environment or biological makeup did not play a role? Not at all. However, I firmly believe that based on the information that we have on Cho Seung-Hui, he made not just one choice, but a series of choices to act in a manner that resulted in tragedy. If Cho Seung-Hui had been a devout, true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, this horrible event would have never occurred.
April 18, 2007 4:17 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I think it is time we start looking at the entire culture of violence, especially as we experience it in the United States, since our duty is primarily to this country. Historically, this country has glorified violence in spite of all our professions of being a "Christian country." We tolerate violence as entertainment and as a way to keep our economy going by making and selling weapons worldwide and conducting or sponsoring wars abroad. We maintain the largest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in the world. We divert attention from our national responsibility in this by pointing to others as "terrorists" when the fact is that the entire world is terrorized by our irresonsible behavior. It is possible that in such things as the Virginia massacre we are "reaping the whirlwind" of our own love affair with guns and the weapons industry, and with our willingness to use violence in order to gain dominance in the world.
April 18, 2007 4:12 PM | Report Offensive Comment
If there is a god, it simply stood by and watched in Blacksburg (as in Rwanda, as in Cambodia, as in Europe in the 1940s), doing nothing to intervene and stop the killing. Such a god, given the immense powers that believers ascribe to it, is morally culpable in the killings, just as you would be if you had the ability to stop a crime and stood and watched and did nothing. A morally culpable god is less comforting even than a morally indifferent, random universe. One can have only pity for fools who try to evade the problem by saying, like the old labor movement song, that there will be pie in the sky when you die.
April 18, 2007 4:08 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Dave, if your Unconditionally Loving Imaginary Friend gets you through the day, fine. For me it's just anthropomorphic Wishful Thinking silliness.
I look at the senseless brutality in this world and just see more work to be done, beyond stoic acceptance of the frequent sadness of random outcomes. We are a morally primitive species, one too clever by half. I suppose in the Really Big Picture it matters not. We will be what we make (or destroy) of ourselves.
BTW- while I find much compelling reasoning in the works of proactive athiests like Sam Harris, I also find much comorting wisdom in Ken Wilber's "The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion."
April 18, 2007 2:05 PM | Report Offensive Comment
One of the things Cho was enraged by was the fact that his parents tried to force their Christianity upon him. Explain how Christianity aided and abetted this young man.
April 18, 2007 1:45 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I did not have God in my life when I went to Virginia Tech, but now I do. I am glad to have a friend that loves me unconditionally, and is always there. This event shows us how life is not something we can depend on. It can be ended at anytime. Before I believed in God I was always sickened by the problems in the world. I never looked at the good in it. People may say that this senselessness shows there is no God, but I dont. I see God in the beauty of Virginia Tech. In the learning. In the community. And even in the suffering. God feels our pain and is there for us. Jesus had a place in his heart for those that were suffering. When anyone asked for help, and believed, they were helped. I have been helped by God. I used to be miserable and in pain. God helped me to find people like me, and together we have helped each other. If someone doesnt believe in God I feel pain for them because something like this just has no respite. But with God, I feel like it will all be ok.
April 18, 2007 1:39 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Life on this planet is a random walk begun by microbes some 4 billion plus years ago. The universe does not owe us any explanations. Anthropomorphic religious incantations and explanation are just silly.
As tragically sad as the VT episode undeniably is, 32 murdered innocents in Iraq is what's known as a "slow news day" any more.
I think VT's Professor Nikki Giovanni eloquently, if tangentially (and more broadly), made this point yesterday.
April 18, 2007 1:32 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Given that God is a delusion, faith can help one stay deluded.
If one lacks courage to face reality, then by all means, join the deluded.
Only know that you are insane.
April 18, 2007 1:31 PM | Report Offensive Comment
What does religion have to do with this tragedy or any other tragedy other than to point out the simple rational fact that there is no god? Or if there is one, it is a singularly malevolent being who creates things to destroy them stochastically. So you might want to be very very afraid of it, but praying for guidance or protection or something positive is unlikely to be a fruitful endeavor. But of course you have well-meaning but inane and vacuous comments like god is love and so on. Religious people who say that god creates but we choose are essentially saying that god is a game player who inserts characters into its game and the characters then proceed to wreak havoc or subsist peacefully stochastically. Why would you pray to such a god? To take you out of the game? Or to leave you in the game long enough for some madman to butcher you? Just curious ...
April 18, 2007 1:28 PM | Report Offensive Comment
"How does your faith tradition explain (and respond to) senseless tragedies such as the Virginia Tech shootings."
I fail to see how any religion could possibly EXPLAIN the massacre at VA Tech. Why would you even ask such an inane question?
Cho was obviously a very disturbed young man who, for whatever reason, decided killing just himself was not enough. He had to take as many others as possible with him. What does that have to do with religion?
You could have just as well asked how does your religion explain the suffering of victims of hurricane Katrina or the tsumani in Asia.
For all those who rant and rave about gun control: I grew up in a country where guns were not sold. If you were a hunter you had to jump through many hoops to obtain a rifle. Prior to moving to the US I had never known anyone who owned a gun. Yet, mysteriously, criminals were always able to obtain handguns, even in a country with the strictest controls. In America, drugs are illegal and are not sold in any store. How come then that America has a major drug problem. Banning guns will do nothing but keeping them out of the hands of responsible owner. All others will obtain their guns on the black market.
April 18, 2007 10:23 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Maria, do you really "believe if each person claiming to be "Christian" would pratice the teachings of scripture, God would move and demonic acts like this and other ungoldly acts would be minimized?"
I sure hope you're wrong. A God who will only stop violence if people read and practice teachings from 1,000's of years ago sounds terribly petty and vindictive - much worse that the ineffective but kindhearted God described elsewhere in these discussions who can't stop the violence, but weeps with us or provides comfort after the violence has occurred.
April 18, 2007 10:12 AM | Report Offensive Comment
As an Australian, on behalf of all Australians, if I may, I send all the family and friends of the victims, the family and friends of the perpetrator of the mindless crime (for they must live with shame in addition to the loss), and to the American nation that grieves with them, my heartfelt condolences. Since all words at this stage of the tragedy is meaningless, I wish to merely share the pain in silence and a poem that fits with the spirit of the day.
On Death
Then Almitra spoke, saying, "We would ask now of Death."
And he said:
You would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?
Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.
--------- Kahlil Gibran (The Prophet)
April 18, 2007 4:52 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Najum,
our comments crossed each other in the ether. You are fundamentally correct. I'm afraid this particular thread is substantially off the subject for a blog on religion. I suspect it appeared here because the moderators were as obsessed by the hot story of the day as was everyone else in their business...
Deaths in Iraq have, unfortunately, become predictable events and therefore not breaking news.
April 18, 2007 4:18 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Thank you all for your thoughtful reflections on how religious community might have been a help to this perpetrator in his emotional distress.
The fact is, this story has little to do with faith and everything to do with a lack of community. It is easy to see in the columns and comments on this blog that people often seek to be reassured that they have joined the right group. What happened at VT is one example of why we all need to rethink our assumption that in order for one view to be correct, all the others need to be false. Instead of reaching out to refute other doctrines, we should simply be reaching out to connect with other human beings.
Membership in a viable community, whether a house of worship or a tight circle of friends, might not have prevented him from taking this action, although having someone to talk to who he knew really cared and understood could have made a difference. At the very least, having someone around who understood where his mind was headed could have provided some warning...
April 18, 2007 4:12 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Faith is an irrational, escapist distraction from the real issues: the proliferation of arms; ludicrously lax gun laws; the sociology of campus life; the culture of glorifying violence etc etc.
Why don't you ask the same question in the context of, say, Iraq: How does your faith tradition explain the senseless killings in Baghdad? Dragging God into every debate seems to be the American way of dealing--rather, not dealing--with what are essentially political, economic, psychological, sociological and cultural questions.
April 18, 2007 4:10 AM | Report Offensive Comment
many people have made some focused points- in looking for the source of events like the virginia tech killings, as cyndi presented her observations as an educator, and the feelings of isolation (possibly exacerbated by mental illness)that led to the desperate and destructive actions of that student- to the observations of chinchilla that the issues of our mentally ill is something we need to address with more attention and vigor- to the several posters commenting on gun control- ( i am in favor of stricter gun control) one thing we all can do is pay more attention to the lonelier members of our neighborhoods who may be crying out in less visible ways-
even smiling can be an act of charity---(and its obvious that paying closer attention wont solve incidences like this- but its a small thing people can do- just paying attention i mean
April 18, 2007 3:24 AM | Report Offensive Comment
It is really irrelevent, people mouth sentimental god words. President Bush " may our loving father in heaven give comfort to the relatives of the victims " or words to that effect. Perhaps if he had said enough is enough guns will be removed from the general public or we will eliminate these video games where shooting people is made a fun routine event hour afer hour day after day.It may over time have some impact. The simple fact 30 odd young people in the prime of their lives have had their one and only life ever terminated. They will pass no life on to a next generation. The killer murderer took his own life. End of story. Mouth your words ,build a memorial, attend services, nothing will return them to life, anyway anywhere. Mourning is a personal close family thing that depends on no God or any Religion or TV station, it's simply a time healing process. Religion promises much to the mourner all of it unproven fairytales such as, Jesus has risen from the dead.
April 18, 2007 1:57 AM | Report Offensive Comment
We may well need to change gun laws in the US, I don't disagree with that, but there is a deeper issue here.
Consider this, In 1994 in Rwanda in just 100 days, more people had been slaughtered with machetes and clubs than had died from atomic weapons in all of history.
And sadly this is but one example.
Certainly we have to have laws to try to curtail the occurrence of things such as gun violence, but even if the gun had not been invented, the numbers may be less but this sort of evil would still happen.
We are in our hearts inclined towards evil, though thankfully not to such proprtions. Thankfully much of that is restrained, and it does not manifest in the kind of brutality seen on the campus of VT, or in the kind seen in Rwanda, or in other times and places.
But this kind of thing has happened across all boundaries of time, situation, economic status, country, etc.
It may be hard to comprehend, but it is easy to see, the effects of the evil and wrong that we do. And it is amazing that a holy God would take all of that upon Himself so that we may be saved from the eternal consequences of that evil that we each to some degree perpetrate and for which justice demands consequence ..."so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"
April 18, 2007 1:31 AM | Report Offensive Comment
John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
April 17, 2007 9:29 PM | Report Offensive Comment
These tragedies upset us, scare us and we want answers to how this could happen. But what people really want are quick fixes. Prayer. Gun control. More security measures taken in the schools and public buildings.
These tragedies scream out MENTAL ILLNESS, but we chalk it off to gun control and metal detectors and then pray that this does not happen again and then go about our lives. They are band-aid fixes for a larger problem which is of course mental illness.
The stigmatization of mental illness many times prevents people to seek and accept help. Many of these illness can be successfully controlled with proper medication and therapy. Therapy can help you to understand your illness, to accept it, deal with it and learn how to recognize when you are not doing so well and may need to make some medication changes. Therapy can help you to learn how to interact with people better and more often. Get you out of that loner and isolation mode. Allow you to find people you can trust and hope that they can and will recognize when you may not be doing so well when you yourself may not be able to recognize it right away.
And even if a person does know they need help, many times they cannot afford the therapy and medication that is needed. Even with health care, many of the medications are still very expensive.
I personally take three different medications. As for the cost with health care and a prescription plan it cost me 180.00 a month at best. Without either it would be close to 1000.00 a month. As far as the stigmatization of those two words *mental illness*, there is no price tag for that.
We need more public awareness, understanding, acceptance and education for mental illness. We need more accessability to mental health care and its options. The drug companies have to stop charging 5.00 a pill for something that probably costs them 5 cents to manufacture. At least for low income, no health insurance patients.
All of us have to stop looking for the quick fixes and take the time and trouble to address the larger problem or we are doomed to see it repeat itself over and over again as it has been doing.
Fall back on your faith, pray all you need to but please, please insist that we as a society address the larger issue. Please, for all of our sakes.
April 17, 2007 9:23 PM | Report Offensive Comment
All such sensless killings and disrespect for each other stems from one fact. This is the promotion of each to themselves. Survival of the fittest. Personal ownership at whatever cost, cheating, lying, even robbing. The idea that we are separate and not One. As long as socieities promote this idea and act upon it, then we will continue to reap the rewards of it. When we start looking at each other as if we look into the mirror, that is we only see ourselves in each other, then we come close to understanding this Oneness. It is then when we treat each other like small gods, as we are indeed made in the image of God. We then learn there are no adversaries, no devils, no satans, no evil, Except goodness=God'n'us. ALL as ONE, each a beautiful and unique flower in the Garden of Creation united as a whole in Oneness. Be a voice for Onenness, live it and feel the love and peace within you. Refuse to promote separation, aggression and violence which is the Doctorine of I for I or Me for Me instead of I for You. Sparation is a primitive mentality. Expand. Move ON. Embrace.
April 17, 2007 8:43 PM | Report Offensive Comment
"We must put on the Armour of God every day!!!!
and pray without ceasing!!!"
What?????
No TV?????
April 17, 2007 8:41 PM | Report Offensive Comment
All such sensless kinllings and disrespect for each other stems from one fac and one fact alone. This is the promotion of each to themselves. Survival of the fittest. Personal ownership at whatever cost, cheating, lying, even robbing. The idea that we are separate and not One. As long as socieities promote this idea and act upon, then we will continue to reap the rewards of it. When we start looking at each other as if we look into the mirror, that is we only see ourselves in each other, then we come close to understanding this Oneness. It is then when we treat each other like small gods, as we are indeed made in the image of God. We then learn there are no adversaries, no devils, no satans, no evil, Except goodness: God and us, ALL as ONE, each a beautiful and unique flower in the Garden of Creation. Be a voice for Onenness, live it and feel the love and peace within you. Refuse to promote separation, aggression and violence. It is soooooo primitive a mentality. Expand. Move ON. Embrace.
April 17, 2007 7:44 PM | Report Offensive Comment
This tragedy reinforces my belief that simply there is no God. And it's time we put this childish nonsense of a belief in God away, and realize that we as human being are the only ones who have the power to reduce ghastly occurences such as this one. A good first step is to institue tighter gun laws and stop letting the NRA and the gun lobbies create a situation that
can easily kill us while they make tons of money, hiding behind the 2nd Amendment. I see, so the shooter fits the definition of a "well disciplined militia." The second problem is that we are country with many leaders who see preemptive violence as a suitable strategy. The neo-cons should cite this young man as a hero, since he follows in teir footsteps.
April 17, 2007 7:33 PM | Report Offensive Comment
It was the Lisbon earthquake in 1755 that started Western thinkers -- Christians, Jews, deists, and atheists -- to realize that catastrophes, natural or man-made, were not God's punishment for mankind's sins. Rather, they are essentially random episodes of no cosmic significance.
I don't mean to belittle anyone's horror and grief at what happened, nor that it is appropriate to seek consolation from your religious outlook, but let's not blame any superhuman agency -- God, the devil, liberals, the NRA -- for an act that is the responsibility of a single individual. Let's also for once avoid the second-guessing that the press is so good at, blaming people who misjudged the situation in good faith.
April 17, 2007 7:14 PM | Report Offensive Comment
When senseless, ungodly tragdies happen like this I immediately sense a need to draw closer to God and seek ways to bring my life in line with the disciplines of His ways. I believe if each person claiming to be "Christian" would pratice the teachings of scripture, God would move and demonic acts like this and other ungoldly acts would be minimized. I realize people really don't won't to go the "surrender" to God route any more. People lean toward their own philsophies and we all think we know what's right in our minds. However, and so far we haven't seen a decrease in violence in schools and neighborhoods, sexual abuse against children or most importantly a change in the character of people in general. We all as "Christians" need to make a sincere effort to live as Christ would have us live and that is by His principles.
April 17, 2007 6:07 PM | Report Offensive Comment
As per the contemporary Christian theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, (from his book, Church, the History of God,Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)
"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" . "Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
And with this profound observation, Schillebeeckx rendered all prophets, i.e. Isaiah, Jesus, Mohammed, Smith et al, and their prophecies moot!!!!!
It also unfortunately explains the tragedies of incidents like the massacre at VT and the daily suicide bombings in Iraq i.e. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS.
April 17, 2007 5:45 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Jesus said with love and kindess have I drawn thee.
To all the families that have been effected by this great tragedy I pray that God heal you from your pain heal you from your hurt and bring peace in the midst of your storm. No words can express or explain why but god knows all things.
But let us draw people with love and kindness, consider your neighbor always for we never know what one is facing or dealing with in his/her life. Grace and peace be unto you from God our father.
In his service,
Minister Jay
Adrummersdream04@yahoo.com
April 17, 2007 5:11 PM | Report Offensive Comment
This blame game and search for a higher meaning will go on until the end of time with no clear answers.
Gun control? Sure, banning guns or restricting more powerful models may have stopped or at least slowed the killer down, but he most likely would have simply found other means of killing.
Religion? If someone had been able to reach out to the killer and address his hatred through religious teachings it is possible that his path may have changed. However, many mass murderers have been religious fanatics and simply filter their rage through some set of religious delusions (ex: Jim Jones, David Koresh, Bin Laden).
The sad truth is simply that a small segment of humanity is born with sadistic tendencies and the overwhelming urge to kill - it can be labeled as anything from mental illness to population control. There is next to nothing anyone can do to predict where and when the next monster will be turned loose - be it a school shooter, serial killer, or suicide bomber. Unless we ban every weapon or sharp/blunt object then lock up every loner and misfit on pre-emptive grounds it is just something we will have to continue to live with.
April 17, 2007 5:04 PM | Report Offensive Comment
This has nothing to do with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in higher places.
We must put on the Armour of God every day!!!!
and pray without ceasing!!!
April 17, 2007 4:57 PM | Report Offensive Comment
This is sad our American friends are going through this sad time.
We are saddened with this rampage and our thougts goes with the families that has been the real victim of this event.
Plese take all the guns and close down all the gun factory that sells gun to civilians like in Canada, we have peace here without guns.
No other country in the world has this gun problem like our American good friends, please do it for the sake of our future generation.
Gun lobby and seller are equally responsible for this crime, because "commiting a crime and assisting to commit a crime is also a crime under the law". This case the gun lobby and the gun maker are assisting to happen this so they should be taken to court for this crime.
April 17, 2007 4:53 PM | Report Offensive Comment
This is sad our American friends are going through this sad time.
We are saddened with this rampage and our thougts goes with the families that has been the real victim of this event.
Plese take all the guns and close down all the gun factory that sells gun to civilians like in Canada, we have peace here without guns.
No other country in the world has this gun problem like our American good friends, please do it for the sake of our future generation.
Gun lobby and seller are equally responsible for this crime, because "commiting a crime and assisting to commit a crime is also a crime under the law". This case the gun lobby and the gun maker are assisting to happen this so they should be taken to court for this crime.
April 17, 2007 4:50 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Everyone has an angle that they'd like to lean on to help explain this event. We hear alot from medical science without much certainty. Alot of Catholics still believe in the devil. I'll be interested to see if the mainstream media will examine this perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonic_possession
April 17, 2007 4:28 PM | Report Offensive Comment
No prayer in schools, no protection. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
April 17, 2007 3:54 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Bob Ristom wrote:
"It is always interesting to listen to gun-control advocates blame guns as our problem."
Gun control is different from gun elimination. There's nothing wrong with controlling what types of weapons are available for legal sale in the USA. We do that with many weapons in this country right now. It's a matter of degree.
What's tragic about yesterday's killings is that the clip-fed gun that the killer used had been outlawed by Congress. As a favor to the gun lobby, the Bush administration and their rubber-stamp Republic Congress allowed that law to expire two years ago. Had the law still been in effect, the killer would have had to consider options that didn't include guns that held 15 rounds in preloadable clips. The death toll could have been much lower if the shooter was forced to use a 6-shot, hand-reloaded revolver.
It's not a black-and -white issue.
April 17, 2007 3:54 PM | Report Offensive Comment
It is always interesting to listen to gun-control advocates blame guns as our problem. What if their effort was directed at much more severe punishment for those who have used guns in the commission of a crime? What if just one of the people under attack had a weapon, in accordance with the concealed carry law in Virginia? What effect could that have exercised on the outcome? Blaming the gun is the easy suggestion. I question it's viability as a solution.
April 17, 2007 3:34 PM | Report Offensive Comment
I am amazed at how many Xian columnists and bloggers have spoken of "evil" in describing yesterday's killings. Do they not known that Yahweh, the god of their Bible, is the creator of evil?:
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVILl: I the LORD do all these things."
2 Kings 6:33 "And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, THIS EVIL IS OF THE LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? SHALL THERE BE EVIL IN A CITY, AND THE LORD HATH NOT DONE IT?"
Xians love to profess that their god is a god of peace. They are quick to point to Bible verses that support their claim. Yet, here we have a Bible verse (Is 45:7) that states quite directly that god creates both peace AND evil.
I'd like to read comments from Xians here on their evil-creating god. Was he responsible for the evil that happened yesterday? Do we really have free will to do things independent of god's will when god states UNEQUIVOCALLY that he "create(s) evil" through the exercise of HIS will?
I'd appreciate a response...and a response that doesn't rely on some new-age translation of the Bible that rewrites the verses to make it appear that god doesn't create evil.
April 17, 2007 3:20 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Once again, America has to face up to having some of the weakest gun control laws in the world. This, despite what the NRA will probably say now is the best "solution." Which would undoubtably be we just need to give out more guns, legally require every student to have one, etc. The same solution they proposed after Columbine.
April 17, 2007 2:24 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Cyndy: I appreciate your comments. I think we can improve the human condition immensely by treating other humans as we would like to be treated and teaching our children to do the same. Tonio: Thank you for your post; I had not seen that in-depth review of Kliebold and Harris. However, that does not negate Cyndy's comment. It still applies and in this case, may be the root cause. We do not yet know.
Those who are searching for higher meanings are wasting their time. If religion helps you cope with reality, good for you. But constructing a plan from God from random acts of violence is, at best, unhelpful and, at worst, counterproductive.
Deb Chatterjee: I would like to think the Homeland security could keep us all alive till were 93 but reality dictates differently. There is more that can be done but complete aversion of tragedy would only occur if we all lived in cocoons. I do not think any of us want that.
April 17, 2007 2:05 PM | Report Offensive Comment
The Washington Post is promoting this harmful brand of superstition called "Christianity". Religion kills. People need to stop believing in an imaginary friend called Jesus, and get on with improving the world.
Religion sucks, and is for the mentally and emotionally weak. It preys on the needy and uneducated.
April 17, 2007 1:49 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Job said it all. 'The Lord gives. The Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.' People demand that God answer to them. We want it our way. If He does not answer us on our terms, then He is to blame. Such attitudes betray something more about humanity than it does about God. Some see cold comfort or no comfort in that. That is their problem, not God's. Our obligation is to search deep within ourselves when faced with such absurdity and find a blessing in it. My wife and I should know. We have lost 2 children to tragic deaths. Blessings have come, but they have come on His terms and His own good time - not ours.
April 17, 2007 1:35 PM | Report Offensive Comment
As a wise man once said, good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but to make good people do bad things, you need religion.
April 17, 2007 1:30 PM | Report Offensive Comment
The lesson of life on earth is that if there is a God, He most certainly DOES NOT care. How else to explain the completely random distribution of happiness and sorrow among people and animals? We really need to get over our pyschological need for a big Daddy in the sky and realize we're alone down here and we have to solve our problems by ourselves.
April 17, 2007 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Why is the Washington Post promoting religion?
This is harmful nonsense.
J. Craig Barnes
April 17, 2007 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comment
When tragedy strucks we are muted and feel a sense of hopelessness. But the Almighty cares and feels our pain in this hour of distress and agony.
By faith He will give us the strength to see us through this calamity. Only His love will fill the vacuum that the piercing arrow of grief has opened.
April 17, 2007 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comment
Yadda yadda yadda, more platitudes and mantra chanting from the Godfreak set. Anything useful to offer the conversation?
April 17, 2007 11:31 AM | Report Offensive Comment
How can there ever be a rational explanation for such a horrific tragedy. First off. My heart goes out to the victims families and loved ones. Such a senseless barbaric act that will influence the lives of many of these people till the day they die.
And the victims themselves. What a waste of human life. All the "might have beens". Gone forever.
And the deranged killer himself. There is a part of me that is glad that he killed himself. Instead of being tried in our courts where he would have in all probability been protrayed as the "real victim". But sometimes I wonder if these psychos have a "comming too" at the last moment. That there is an instant where he realized the evil that he has committed. And then turns the gun on himself. Who knows?
My spirituality cannot explain such cruel and selfish acts. I know that there are extremely mentally sick people running around out there amongst us. I work with many of them on a daily basis. Individuals who take pleasure from other peoples pain and suffering. So I think that there will always be good and evil in the world. I don't buy into the political correct theory that all evil is called mental illness. That evil is treatable with medication and counseling. There are real mentally ill people out there who would never hurt anyone. Just like there are real evil people out there who are constantly making mental plans to carry out evil acts, and some of them act on their sick and twisted thoughts. We could outlaw guns, knives, video games, movies, books, etc... I don't believe that one can stop evil when its made its mind up to act out its aggression. Evil needs no so called rational excuse to hurt, cripple, and murder. It never has.
In the end I am left with more questions than answers. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims. And yes, even to the parents or loved ones of the killer. But not to the killer himself. If there is a God. God will deal with him now.
April 17, 2007 11:26 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Concerned,
I'm not sure that I understand your post. You would care to explain your reasoning a little more fully?
April 17, 2007 11:15 AM | Report Offensive Comment
What I mean by outcast, is feeling like an outcast. Of course these individuals have mental illnesses. Having a mental illness makes people feel isolated. I am not saying that feeling like an outcast is the only reason for their actions, but it is obviously not a well-adjusted person who acts in these ways.
April 17, 2007 11:07 AM | Report Offensive Comment
This monumental tragedy at VaTech shall rock the nation for generations.
This is not a faith issue, IMO. It's a law enforcement issue. DHS should take more pre-emptive action, instead of waiting for an unfortunate, catastrophic tragedy to happen and then praying to an unseen deity to bail us out of the evil. Why doesn't DHS have more "snooping" laws to see who is upto something bad and apprehend him/her ? Why does it take 33 innocent lives to get the wake-up call ? And, then hide behind candle-light vigils and prayers, just to hope that somehow (?) USA shall be protected ?
It's simple commonsense action(s) that seems to be totally lost.
April 17, 2007 11:07 AM | Report Offensive Comment
"I think it is important to realize that the perpetrators of these crimes (VT, Columbine, etc.) feel that they are outcasts -- that they do not fit in with the rest of the world."
Cyndy, the FBI rejected the "outcast" theory some time ago. Instead, they showed that the Columbine killers had severe mental illnesses:
http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/
April 17, 2007 10:55 AM | Report Offensive Comment
"When will the Churches use their pulpits to rise up against the sick American fascination with guns?"
YES! Since it is their parishoners who, for the most part, hold this fascination.
Will this be the tragedy that finally fuels gun legislation through committee? How many more will it take? One should have been enough.
April 17, 2007 10:43 AM | Report Offensive Comment
My faith does not answer the question of senseless killings or, honestly, the pain of life in many ways. I think it is important to realize that the perpertrators of these crimes (VT, Columbine, etc.) feel that they are outcasts -- that they do not fit in with the rest of the world. (Yes, I am assuming this for the VT incident.) Would my faith stop these? No, because my faith is not part of these people's lives.
The answer, I feel, lies more in how we treat our fellow man than how we worship in our chosen ways. The story of the Good Samartian is applicable -- many other faith traditions have similar ethics -- treat everyone as your neighbor. Do not shun, mock, alienate someone else just because they are different than you.
Since I work in public education, the issue of school killings is everpresent. I work very hard at showing students that we are all the same -- whether that be through my Comparative Religions class, Mythology, Western Philosophy, or American Literature. I pick texts that show all people feel isolated at times, no one is alone in that feeling. However, there are always places to reach out. If that is a church for you, great. If it is your actual neighbor, awesome. If it is the counselor on the other end of a phone line, wonderful. But this goes both ways ... people must be willing to grab the hands of those reaching (even when it is not always obvious) and help in any way they can.
There are many times I talk with students because of what they have written in my class (or left on a note on the floor). Has it stopped another killing, I don't know. But I do know that those students were helped and found more help because of my actions. Is it hard? Most definitely. It takes time and effort to reach out to those in need, but it is worth the effort.
This is my plea. Know that what you say does impact people. Respect others and yourself enough to not demean, insult, or hurt those around you. If you do (accidental or not), try to fix it. We are all human, recognize that humanity means imperfection.
April 17, 2007 10:37 AM | Report Offensive Comment
The question isn't what God wants for us. It is what we want for ourselves. There is no doubt that this a tremendous tragedy for not only the ones involved, but also for the ones who are not involved. This ordeal has implications that reach beyond this world.
It is as much spiritual as it is corpreal. The evil done on this day far outweighs some of the good, yet eventually the good will bounce back. But you must realize, that in this world, there will never be a total reign of Good over evil, nor will Evil reign over Good. It is a constant balnace. Right and wrong, yin and yang. There cannot be one without the other. When one act overshadows the other, than inevitably the latter will overshadow the other when it is time. Balance is always the key.
Belief in a higher power has nothing to do with it. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, athiest, Buddhist, etc., the main picture is to know that the world will even itself out in the end.
While the country mourns for the people at VT, know within your heart, or within your God, that everything will eventually turn out to be better in the end.
April 17, 2007 10:25 AM | Report Offensive Comment
After the Columbine massacre, many evangelical Christians argued that the event showed the "mistake" of doing away with mandatory prayer in public schools. For years they peddled the story of Cassie Bernall's alleged Christian martyrdom, even though the story had been debunked very shortly after the massacre.
Events like Columbine and Virginia Tech do not prove anything about anyone's religious beliefs. Forcing kids to pray in public schools wouldn't have stopped Klebold from being depressive and suicidal, nor would it have stopped Harris from being psychotic. I'm a parent and I completely understand the terror that many people feel when they learn of such horrific events. I can identify with the desperate need to find some magic cure-all to prevent future school violence. Whatever the solution, it would definitely not be using public schools to push someone's religious beliefs on my children.
April 17, 2007 9:56 AM | Report Offensive Comment
When will the Churches use their pulpits to rise up against the sick American fascination with guns?
Or we will simply get more crocodile tears while we wait for the next bout of mindless slaughter?
"Spiritual" pontification after the fact is just useless verbiage.
Why don't these leaders lead?
April 17, 2007 9:50 AM | Report Offensive Comment
Indeed a major tragedy pointing to a major problem into today's world i.e. sex addiction and how it can be violently played out.
Time to address this addiction with God-given gifts of reason and science by medically treating the condition with anti-libido medication?
April 17, 2007 9:29 AM | Report Offensive Comment