Readers’ Responses to Our Question (139)

Everything that happens in this universe is uncaused. It is the belief in a cause that leads to the experience of cause.

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I'm a recent convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My faith views the horrible incident as an expression of one’s own free agency. Heavenly Father does not have any control over our conscience and free will in any way what so ever. He has the power to influence us for the better through The Holy Spirit. However, Satan also has the power to influence us through the flesh. It’s ultimately up to the individual to make the choice by which he will be judge on the Last Day.

BTW here in Sydney, Australia, it was already 23 April 2007 when I posted my message on WP.

On 23 April 2003 I was given a new lease on life. I was hit by a car and could have been killed instantly as many thousands are. I suffered internal head injury and lost my short term memory for about twenty four hours (I didn't know where I lived, gave a different phone number as contact, didn't remember any details of my life of the past year etc). I ended up with a torn knee ligament. But eight weeks later I was back to normal, and my knee recovered fully with physiotherapy in only twelve weeks. All I have in memory of that near death experience is a small superficial scar on my right knee, one that I could have got by bruising it by scraping it against something rough. Even worse than death would have been to end up with physical and/or mental disability, and/or ugly scars which would have done little for my self confidence as a woman etc.

Why did God spare my life? Why didn't I die like thousands do in similar situations? I don't know. All I know is that I am alive by a sheer miracle. I thank God and accept the gift of a new lease on life. It is a mystery and I do not seek the answers. But it reminded me that death could come at any time, unannounced and I need to be prepared.

Reflecting about that accident today, reminds of me of the need to keep death in mind as I live my life - every single day. Not as a morbid preoccupation, but as a way to bring life into the right perspective, to reassess my priorities. In the face of death, life takes on a new meaning. Priorities begin to shift, and things that once seemed so important fade into insignificance. Things long neglected take on a new urgency. The reason to live becomes stronger and the reason becomes more purposeful. Rearranging the priorities of life accordingly saves energy and time.

This moment is all I have. Who knows what may happen in the next? I would like death to be a mere passing on to another level of consciousness, effortlessly, like opening a door to another room, a room much better than the one I am in. Yes, and I live in the hope of meeting my God and all the loved ones who have gone before me and all who will come after me. Yes, I long to live in the world where there are no tears and no parting.

"God" "wills" this or that. "God" "wants" this or that. "God" is "tormented" by His Childrens' behavior.

Grow up. Can't you all see how anthropomorphically silly and juvenile your language is here?

"Lord", "King" "Subjects"... LOL. it's all so feudal.

Desperation to explain the unexplainable. Wishful Thinking fallacy ad nauseum.

Right up front, let's be clear. God did not will what happened yesterday at Virginia Tech. Period.

As a pastor, I have said, when similar things happen, that for some mysterious, divine, impossible-to-understand reason, God "allowed" it to happen. So, why do I get such a sour taste in my mouth when I say those words? If God is the sort who "allowa" people to be slaughtered in what most assume to be a very safe, and normally serene, environment, then I wonder if I want to continue to believe in such a God.

Then, I look at the culture in which I live. A culture which idolizes guns and violence. A culture which puts anger up on a pedastal and doesn't dare knock it off. A culture which gives assent to the notion that we can carry around our grudges as long as we want, and act on them whenever, wherever we want. A culture in which every form of media is obsessed with death, with killing, with brutality. (And don't think that the church is free of such a culture, of such dark emotions. Demonization and vilification of those who disagree with us is standard practice.)

And by my watching such movies, and reading such books, and playing such video games I acquiesce to this culture. And by my silence, I encourage the culture to continue on this now-beyond-reckless course. By my silence, I allow these things to take place.

So, maybe it is the other way around. Maybe God wonders about continuing to believe in me, about believing in us, about believing in those who have been created in the divine image.

Yet, the evidence is there that even if this is
what God is wondering, God chooses to be involved with us. We see it in the flood of helpers who are at the campus today, and tomorrow, and beyond - the grief counselors, the therapists, the religious leaders, the doctors, the nurses - to bring healing and hope to a devastated community. And long after the anchors, and the TV crews, and the reporters have packed up their equipment and gone after the next story, they will still be there.

I do not believe that what happened at Virginia Tech was God's will. But I do believe that God wills healing, wholeness, and new life for all those shattered by this tragedy. I do believe
God wills that the helpers will never, ever have
to respond to another crisis like this.

And I do believe God wills that the silence stops.

Thom
>

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:

1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.

2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.

3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.

4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.

The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.

Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?

My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.

Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.

Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?

Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.

Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.

My "religious tradition" cannot really explain this. What causes someone to do this or why was it not prevented? These are not questions for religion to answer. It appears there are at least 4 practical issues and 2 more speculative questions, where religion might enter only as an afterthought or big-picture stock taking opportunity:

1. The university support system could not help Cho in his mental or psycho-social distress, even though there were many attempts at intervention. Many fragments but nothing or no one to pull everything together to possibly warn or treat appropriately.

2. The medical facility that did examine him and find him mentally sick did not, could not or would not follow-up. Nor did the university consider itself or its services part of a mental health referral system. Possibly from legal prohibitions or possibly from poor service design. He fell through the cracks.

3. As Cho went over the edge, he had no family support or community support.

4. The gun "background check" came back clean and he could legally buy a two guns in spite of his illness.

The deeper issues are the non-intersecting conceptual definitions of mental illness and free will to explain the "problem of evil in the world." The former (mental illness or mental health) refers to his apparent condition as the basic cause of this event, and the latter (free will, evil) is a theological doctrine that is a big-picture concept with very little explanatory power.

Free will or the presence of evil do not adequately explain his actions. Is a mentally sick person truly "free" to choose evil?

My religious tradition can offer love, peace, community, support and hope for healing. It can also offer some notion that that evil exists, but that good is usually found among the evil if we look for it. Good flowers even among the garbage and weeds.

Whatever inward journey Cho was on, we can only guess, as those who had contact with him attest. His roommates did not have a relationship with him. His family did not provide a significant safety net in his downward spiral, and any mental health provider did not have a true opportunity to intervene to the extent that his condition required. But we cannot blame them if they were not given the opportunity to help him.

Why must we "blame" this on anyone or anything except his poor mental state and the various opportunities that were missed to prevent it?

Mass murder, war, crimes against humanity, genocide, torture are all evil acts that come from man's intent, and man's inhumanity to man. Yet we are all to some degree complicit when we rationalize these events and look the other way, allowing the evil to spread.

Let us respond with love and not more hatred when these tragedies befall us. And let's find some leaders and politicians and community leaders that can be held accountable for taking reasonable policy actions to correct some obvious flaws in health care for the mentally ill and the unfortunate linkage to gun availability. And let's learn to respect each other's religious traditions, even those who questions the meaning, value or reason for religion.

Well, we have now been told that Cho had severe mental illness. So I have copied and pasted my post from earlier as it got buried.

And to answer the question above about my faith. I don't have one. So I use common sense, reason and rationality. Hense forth I don't blame these tragedies on sin. My rationality says gun control is not the answer either. So it only stands to reason anyone that commits such horrendous acts is mentally unfit.

My origianl post follows:

These tragedies upset us, scare us and we want answers to how this could happen. But what people really want are quick fixes. Prayer. Gun control. More security measures taken in the schools and public buildings.

These tragedies scream out MENTAL ILLNESS, but we chalk it off to gun control and metal detectors and then pray that this does not happen again and then go about our lives. They are band-aid fixes for a larger problem which is of course mental illness.

The stigmatization of mental illness many times prevents people to seek and accept help. Many of these illness can be successfully controlled with proper medication and therapy. Therapy can help you to understand your illness, to accept it, deal with it and learn how to recognize when you are not doing so well and may need to make some medication changes. Therapy can help you to learn how to interact with people better and more often. Get you out of that loner and isolation mode. Allow you to find people you can trust and hope that they can and will recognize when you may not be doing so well when you yourself may not be able to recognize it right away.

And even if a person does know they need help, many times they cannot afford the therapy and medication that is needed. Even with health care, many of the medications are still very expensive.

I personally take three different medications. As for the cost with health care and a prescription plan it cost me 180.00 a month at best. Without either it would be close to 1000.00 a month. As far as the stigmatization of those two words *mental illness*, there is no price tag for that.

We need more public awareness, understanding, acceptance and education for mental illness. We need more accessability to mental health care and its options. The drug companies have to stop charging 5.00 a pill for something that probably costs them 5 cents to manufacture. At least for low income, no health insurance patients.

All of us have to stop looking for the quick fixes and take the time and trouble to address the larger problem or we are doomed to see it repeat itself over and over again as it has been doing.

Fall back on your faith, pray all you need to but please, please insist that we as a society address the larger issue. Please, for all of our sakes.

Cat in the Hat,

Just to verify something. The earliest know copies of the NT were 125 a.d. as a collection even though the original writings were shown to be within 5 years of Christ's death. There were 24,000 copies in all by 125 a.d. All in comparison their marginal rate of error was 99.9% and only errors consisting of minor annotations which did not render the message in any way. In comparison the closest amount of copies were by Homer (Iliad) at 648 with a greater amount of error between them all. I did a little research on that awhile ago. I thought it not only very interesting but also points to how reliable the Bible really is. No other ancient writings were even close to accuracy and length of time in between events (to assume legend). Take care. Just thought I would share what I found.

God bless

Following every disaster (Virginia Tech, 9/11, etc.) come the inevitable stories of individuals who would have been at the scene of the tragedy, but were spared by a fortuitously late train, a missed alarm clock, sixth sense, or the like. It seems odd to me that such individuals, and their families, routinely praise the God that was looking out for them, without damning that same God for failing those who died, or suffered.

I also notice that in these circumstances, when the question "how could God allow this" is posed, God is given a complete pass on the premise that the tragedy was due entirely to the gift of free will -- apparently something with which even an omnipotent God cannot interfere.

You can hardly turn a page of the bible without finding episodes in which God works miracles to resolve fairly modest grievances. One wonders why this same God hasn’t pulled out this bag of tricks in the face of the holocaust, the Virginia Tech shootings, 9/11, (or any of a host of other hideous circumstances)?

Even if you believe that an omnipotent God couldn’t have interfered with the free will of the shooter, why would anyone be content to believe that an omnipotent God (who created the universe, parted the waters, turned staffs into snakes and burned magic bushes) couldn’t have simply made the gun jam?

GW -

Right, diss me on a couple of typos. Really substantive. But, whatever helps you avoid the point.

In 2005, four young Mounties were ambushed and killed by a police-hating gunman. The youngest, Peter Schiemann, son of a pastor, was the first to be laid to rest. The following snippet from a Canadian website contains a quote spoken by his father, Rev. Don Schiemann.

"It goes to what theologians call "the problem of evil." How can an all-powerful, all-loving God allow such a thing to happen? For believers like Don Schiemann, a Lutheran minister from Stony Plain, Alta., and father of 25-year-old Peter Schiemann, the youngest of the four slain RCMP officers, there is an answer. "God grants to people free will," he said just two days after the fatal shootings, "and with free will, some people choose to do great evil."" (http://tinyurl.com/22v97p and others)

Sorry need to correct myself-- the dates of the earliest known copies of the documents is the shortest with the NT documents and several hundred or thousand of years for other major ancient works.. the NT documents are also the most numerous (5000+) compared with <10 copies for things like Ceasar Gallic wars, etc.

To the question about 40-50 year timelag between the writing of the New Testament gospels and the time of Christs life: 40-50 years is a very SHORT length of time for historical writings. The veracity of other writings which many take for granted were actually written 1000+ years after the events. check out one quick link for starters:

http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html#writings

BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????

I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....

Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murdering another is wrong" ...without an eternal standard????
Please respond in "real" English how your faith tradition responds

BobbyG, you use words which aren't even in my college dictionary..."ulitlitarian"?????? "virutes"????????

I would like you to realize that it is a slippery slope when one starts living out the world view that there is no absolute truth....

Beware of double standards...there is either absolute truth or no absolute truth...and if there is truth, then how can you argue your truth "ala murder another is wrong" without an eternal standard????

Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember the sixties when we dumped people out of mental institutions to become the homeless people sleeping on grates in the cities, and dying of exposure in a few years. The idea was that mistakes were made, and some were institutionalized who should not be. But we now let people who are in the deepest mental troubles continue to stay in the community, and even sell them military grade weapons. The caring community back then grew out of the faith communities of the time. It had its problems with busy bodies, and was too constricting in some ways, but it did take care of the children better than we do now. In the Gospel according to Matthew Jesus says:

‘When did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
‘Assuredly, I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these
My brethren, you did it to Me.’

It is time to return to caring for the hurt, the damaged, the needy, the sick, and those who face trials alone. We can't create a perfect world but we are called to make it better when we can. Maybe nothing anyone could have done would have stopped Cho, but maybe people weren't even allowed to try, either.

I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.

One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.

It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”

Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.

What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.

It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.

I think it is very unfortunate that this happened of course. In light of the fact that this world will be jaded against Christ, the best we can do is shine for Him. I heard that one Christian radio announcer focused on this issue by saying that Christians should train their children in Christian doctrine. For it is far worse to leave this world without the intimate knowledge of Christ than to witness what happened in a world prone to futility outside of God’s grace upon the just and the unjust.

One huge thing that stood out to me in this event was the contrast between the concepts of mental illness and evil. I do perceive that there has been much evidence that mental illness is obviously something biologically unfortunate. However, it seems that the mental health industry thrives on mental illness while neglecting it. We live in a day and age where it is wrong to point and criticize. Yet I think that has neutered discernment.

It is true that to be overly critical or instinctually shifting blame is futile. But that does not mean that we should lobotomize their rightful places in order to let the freedom of our pseudo gentle – politically correct versions of reducing concepts that overly accommodate our psyche’s most palatable acceptance of “poisonous—feel good (in the sense that we do not face the darkness in all of our hearts)—cotton candy concepts” that should be far more willing to step outside our prepackaged internal yearnings for “sterilizing rhetoric—internal and communal (that internal rhetoric we tell ourselves that everything is fine as long as I am a nice guy).”

Unfortunately the politically correct removal, from even industry, of such concepts as “people having enough backbone to be willing to be exposed to a law suit to protect society from those whose mental conditions can cause it harm,” I think is a far more serious ill than our horrific mass murderer has done. His evil has taken its toll. Meanwhile…our society wallows in the shallow end of dealing with the difficult realities of life as cowardice tides gently swish past our ankle deep wading bodies.

What has occurred is very sad and my heart goes out to those in loss…however, we are not living in a dramatic series where closure arrives in a few weeks. Even reality TV gives out prizes at the close of their seasons. For those in loss over this…wounds deepen as the tide of time reveals the magnitude of this loss. As the upcoming seasons disclose to the survivors of loss family and friends just how real and empty the hollowing affects of life lost tyrannizes the soul sense of hope…we will be a nation continually soft selling hard realities with concepts that make adjustments for a utopia never to come.

It would be great if we could make the same use of this time as the radio announcer advocated. For flesh is like grass and the glory of man like the flower of grass.

GW :
"BobbyG...what do you base your "belief" statement on that murdering someone is wrong?"
_____

That's SO easy. Beyond its general ulitlitarian virutes, simple Kantian ethical reciprocity -- a.k.a. "Golden Rule."

C'mon, you gotta do better than that trite insinuation.

"Nature may indeed be 'red in tooth and claw,' but it is not merely so."

- Sam Harris

Thank you Benita Hawkins for that website referral. I just posted a prayer.

BobbyG...what do you base your "belief" statement on that murdering someone is wrong?

The recent tragedy at Virginia Tech University has
provoked all the usual responses: Why did this happen?
Why wasn't security on that campus better? Who's gonna
be responsible for this? Why weren't the people who
were killed warned ahead of time? How could someone do
such a thing? How could someone be so evil? Why is the
world so crazy? Why wasn't Jesus name spoken at the
Public Memorial?

The same as it ever was.(ref: Talking Heads, "Same as
it Ever Was") The same old tired questions we ask in
the face of things we do not understand. Similar,
tired reactivity to things we do not want to believe,
we ourselves, are connected to. The same news outlets
saying in their unending liturgy of doom, "the world
is gone to Hell in a hand basket."

Baloney on all that nonsense. The wrong questions are
being asked. The vision for how to move forward is too
restricted by poor leadership. Poor leadership in
every corner of our common life as sojourners in this
land.

What other questions might be asked? I don't know
exactly. But, I'm willing to look deeper. Are you?

What might have made a difference in this situation?
What was this guy so angry with? Was anybody
listening? Was anybody staying connected with this
child of God during his descent into sin, evil and
ultimately, Hell on Earth?

I don't know the answers to those questions. But, I am
willing to look at how we might reorient ourselves and
our culture on how to respond next time. From the
beginning, and human history reveals, that we should
all realize, there will be a next ONE. We might think
about responding to the next ONE rather, than staying
completely fixated on what went wrong with the last
ONE? Maybe?

Holy and gracious Father: In your infinite love you
made us for yourself; and, when we had fallen into sin
and become subject to evil, you, in your mercy, sent
Jesus Christ, your only and eternal Son, to to share
our human nature, to live and die as one of us, to
reconcile us to you, the God and Father of all(ref:
BCP, p. 362).

I don't have much stamina for the question, "How could
someone be so evil?" That implies that "one of us"
could do no such a thing. The beginning of the next
ONE lies in that neurotic notion.

We all have the capacity to do evil. There is a
trembling terror in every human heart. How we respond
to that reality is the determining point. This is
place in the geography of our common life where we
each choose between acting in a holy way, or, in an
evil way. This is where we choose in each moment how
to respond to our perceptions of the world as we move
through it. We can move through it with grace or in
fear. The graceful approach has to be practiced in
order to transform the terrors into trusting faith.
The fearful practice an approach which belives the
inner terror and believes the world is a very
dangerous place. This is the place where some choose
to repay evil with evil.

What might the faithful of God hope to, in their
graceful practices, offer to those who get themselves
backed into corners of darkness? How can we help those
in darkness see Light. Could we tell them that maybe
some of their perceptions are right? The world does
have sufficient evil lurking about that the assessment
of, "their is danger around every corner;" and,
"people are against me," is not totally insane. Could
we encourage people feeling burdened and overwhelmed
to be brave in their desire to fight the status quo.
They really are just want things to be different than
they are now. Maybe encouraging the ONE who is beaten
down to resist the system oppressing them and crushing
them, is more helpful than telling the One to "fix
yourself." We could encourage them and offer join
them, and with them, not accept the way things are,
because the way things are isn't good enough
anymore.(ref: Nichole Nordeman, Brave)

When you are backed into your corner, feeling
defeated, alone and wounded and hopeless, did someone
telling you what you should do, or, ought to do, help
much? When you are frightened and overwhelmed; when
your soul is wrapped around an axle which is making
the wrapping tighter with every turn of the spin
cycle; how easy is it for you to see Light. I usually
need someone to help me unwrap from the axle of
hopelessness.

Is the world really so dark and dangerous? Do we live
in place that the only way to change things is to back
into a corner and make a big mess of ourselves. Or, is
it so bad in this place that our best choice is to
back into the corner until we explode out into the
world, making a mess everyone else has to deal with,
when we've had enough.

The world is a mess. Always was. I don't know about
you, but, I think we live in world filled with beauty
and hope and glory. At the same time, I, too, see evil
amongst us every day, as well. The system oppresses
every one of us. No matter where we try to position
ourselves the system opresses. I am hopeful you, too,
choose not to retreat to dark alcoves and narrow
corners of perception. Those alcoves seem very crowded
these days. Too crowded for me anyway.

Next time you mosey past one of those moments of evil;
next time you peer into that darkness and recognize a
precious soul of God's making, with still enough Light
to reflect Light out to you - could you say, to the
ONE in there, "Hello, in there"(ref: John Prine "Hello
In There"). Next time you recognize there is a soul in
there crying out; "I love you, I'm not gonna crack, I
kill you, I'm not gonna crack" (ref: Nirvana, Kurt
Cobain, "Lithium"); could you say, "Yes the system is
taking all our hopes and dreams and making them stones
around our neck; but, "We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do. We live in a beautiful world,
yeah we do, yeah we do"(ref: Coldplay, "Don't Panic").
The ONE in there may crack like Judah/Judas did when
all hope seemed lost. Or, like that precious child/man
of God did last Monday. Or, like Kurt did that lonely
afternoon. Or, like people who move to all sorts of
extreme points of view 'cause, we all trapped in there
at some point in an oppressive system. We can each
choose how to respond to it and how to help those
trapped in it.

The fuel for energizing our resistance to the
oppression is all around us. The glory of God is all
around us. It is in us, always. It is there if we
choose to engage it and be changed into it. It is in
the music that lifts our spirit filled souls. It is in
the prayers we offer to a gracious God in a
celebration/meal in which we are fed even more fuel
for the journey towards hope. It is in the scripture
we believe shows the way to salvation; especially when
we use it to discern His will and not to convince the
other-ONE we know His will.

My perception, from this point of view, is that the
world is not as tough as I/WE generally want to make
it. For me the world is growing less complex. It is my
recognition that we all need ask for the Glory to be
more and more revealed, and, to ask the Creator to
more and more saturate Glory into each one us.

In the geography of that landscape, all we really need
to do is to be better Jews (A people chosen to love
God and to live in Covenant with God in order that the
whole of creation might be blessed.) Live lives which
reflect we know and love a gracious creator. Live
lives which reflect in that knowledge, we are free to
inhabit this land, be prosperous and be loving to
everyONE and everything else. Live lives that offer
true hospitality to those who are very different from
us. Help the wounded know that there is hope. And,
believe that for everyONE of us there may be a Glory,
a hope, that is more immense than we ever dreamed of
or hoped for.
(ref: NicholeNordeman, "What if You're Wrong").

To all you folks who compare VT Tech to the war in Iraq: Don't mix apples and oranges!

The young people killed at VT Tech were civilians.

The men and women in Iraq and elsewhere are soldiers in a VOLUNTEER Army/Air Force/Navy/Marines. No one forced them to join. When one joins the military it is understood that one may have to go to war. Regardless of whether you think this war is morally wrong, when you join the military you have to go anywhere they send you.

VCM wrote:

"When God is taken out of Society, this is the result of what Satan does as he takes control of the mind, body and souls of those who place their lives in the hands of other gods. In place of the creator we have placed our faith in money,sex, and violence, also in our own abilities to rule our own lives and the lives of those around us.

It seems that people are grasping for answers to all the tragedy that we see everyday. No one will try and understand that even though we witness such horrendous crimes, that Almighty God is still in control of this world. "

My dear, you seem to forget that Satan, just like Jesus, is your God's son. Therefore, your God is directly responsible for all the ills that befall this world.

So perhaps the "Allmighty" is fallible since he is incapable of controlling his offspring?

If that is the case then he can't possibly be in control of this world.

The Web Site to give God the Thanks and Praise for things not being any worst then they could have been is - www.imnotashametothankyoulord.com - It's only
for Gods Glory.

There is so much loss in this story that it is a struggle to see what good may come of it in the long run. The loss of so many sparkeling children with futures so bright. These kids and their classmates are the future of the world. The loss of one such is the loss of a world to come from each and every one. When I was a young person in the midwest many years ago, every family had a gun, or two, and yet the level of gun violence, especially of this type, was very, very, low.
It seems to me that we live increasingly isolated from each other now, and the community support and mutual caring seems to be getting lost. Constant pressure for more output by robber barons running our industries to enrich themselves, job losses, families with both parents working sixty-hour weeks, fragmented families, troubled kids who no one helps. Where did we think it would lead?
I believe that the communities of faith in the previous century, for all their imperfections of over control and letting people down because they were not perfect instruments of God at all times, at least cared for the children better than this. Perhaps we have lost track of the fact that each child, whether from Korea, or Virginia is sacred. That means being able to recognize when some of us need help, and to act upon it. This troubled young man showed signs of what was to come, but no one was allowed to intervene in a way that would be effective. He lost because of that, and we lost because of that. Thirty-one families lost their most precious sons and daughters because of that. Our society has to care about these losses, and how to minister to those among us who need it, or we are all lost.

My heart go's out to each one of you and I know the
pain seams never ending, but truly God will get you
and your love ones through it. There is a Web Site
build only to give your Thanks and Praise to God for
their for the grace of God it could have ben worst.
So to God be all Honor and Glory. He will keep your
hearts and minds from harding to.

Well, my old preacher would say that Godless America brought about this tragedy as divine punishment. Then again, his idea of a Christmas sermon was vilifying the Three Wise Men for inadvertently causing the slaughter of thousands of Hebrew newborns.

Religion should comfort people, not point fingers. Jesus preached love, and Buddhism emphasized harmony with all things. Regardless of the fundamental differences and contradictions between different religions, most people seek them out of peace of mind and communion with a higher power.

I can't explain Cho's actions. I can only hope that people will try to genuinely converse and examine the subject through their respective points of view, RATHER THAN USING IT AS A SOAPBOX TO AGGRESSIVELY BASH THEIR SUPPOSED OPPONENTS (Christians, Atheists, Gun Nuts, Americans and Anti-Americans, I'm looking at all of you).

Now is the time for constructive dialogue, not shameful bickering.

I watched the news tonight on VTech. They flashed across the screen the pictures of the students that were killed. My heart ached for them and their families.

Then I wondered why the pictures of the dead soldiers from the start of this war till present were not being flashed across the screen daily? Are they any less important?

The answer of course is no. But as someone else said God forbid we wake this country up to the terrible horror being perpetuated in Iraq everyday.

Jihadist,

It's quite possible that "Ishmael Ax" is a reference to the narrator in "Moby Dick". Cho was an English Lit major, after all. Tell that to the annoying people who are asking you what it means. Like you (or anyone else) has a view on what this guy was thinking.

As for where I think God was in all of this horrible tragedy, I look at the Prof. Livescu, who is as old as my father and has survived a lot more, putting himself between the gunman and his students. I look at the R.A. who responded when the first girl was shot, and got killed. I look at the students who barricaded their classroom doors to protect the others. I see the face of the Divine in them. Because ALL religions have the same basic idea - love your neighbor. Look out for your fellow Humans. Whether they were Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, or something else, these brave souls are heroes.

My God, how contemptible Americans must look to the rest of the world when they supported an obviously trumped up war - obvious at any rate to anyone who didn't have their fat ass permanently parked at a McDonald's - where hundreds are now being killed every day and the unexpected death of 32 college students is cause for endless hand-wringing and smarmy elocutions.

VT's Dr. Nikki Giovanni:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsloktqpeQ

I agree with Karen above (way above - i.e. my faith accepts the absurd) but God needs us to be pragmatic. Lethal weapons create lethal consequences. We need the people (those who will needlessly die because of gun violence) more than we need the Ssecond Amendment. The framers of the Constitution - who were thinking about muskets; were not thinking about the technology of Glocks, AK47s or even Gatling guns. Will there ever be a time when we realize the government is corrupt and everyone needs to take up arms against the authority of the day? How long does this myth need to be perpetuated? Lets use the courts to sue every post office, university, every arms manufacturer, every dealer or importer, everyone or anyone who in some way could have prevented a madman from easily killing an innocent victim.

Drabble

JM -

My heart equally aches for YOU. I cannot imagine. Nine years ago my first-born child died in my arms after 26 months of cancer hell (see the essay on my website). But, at least I had that time with her. People like you and the VT kin who lose a child suddenly have my total sympathy.

Dave:
"the question asked how faith explains senseless tragedies like this one. It does not ask other to critique people's faith."
_____

True, but, c'mon, you know threads are gonna wander, and peoples' opinions are gonna get challenged. I think I was pretty much on topic when I first posted at about 1:32 pm.

Now, if you wanna go back to the exact question "how does your faith tradition explain (and respond to) senseless tragedies such as the Virginia Tech shootings," does it my mean MY PERSONAL current 'faith tradition' (a moving target, that; less a tradition than an evolution) or the one I was raised in as a child (Episcopalian)? If it's the latter, I'd said they're probably spewing forth the usual well-meaning, eloquent, -- but ultimately vapid, in the main -- platitudes.

Regarding my own evolved "spiritual" views, I think I've pretty well stated them already during the course of the day. Cho's act was indeed "senseless" morally. The unsatisfying "explanation" is simple: untended acute (and worsening) mental illness + easily available lethal weapons.

Nothing more. All part of the random walk that is life on this planet.

Professor Nikki Giovanni pretty much nailed it yesterday. Worth hearing if you missed it. Probably up on YouTube by now (along with Cho's crazed QuickTime movie rant).

It is difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend the extreme violence that exploded across the Blacksburg campus earlier this week. In a sense, the best we can do for the survivors is to acknowledge their pain and validate their absolute entitlement to cry. And, when it becomes time to explain the unexplainable, perhaps the best we can do would be to remind them that being human has a terrible cost; each of us is bound to impose meaning on the chaos we witness.

Although they most certainly did not choose this awful event to become a turning point in their lives, the survivors will be in a position to turn that madness into something meaningful, by the choices they will make, the lives they will choose to live and the values they will choose to live by. And, perhaps in that small way, some part of those who have died will still remain alive.

My heart aches for the families who lost their loved ones at Virginia Tech. As a Mother whose child died tragically in a car accident, I understand the shock and grief the families are experiencing. Losing a child is one of the most difficult trials that one can go through in life. We must have compassion for the families, respect their privacy and right to grieve. I can only imagine what they must be going through right now. It will be extremely difficult because of media coverage replaying the events over and over. I understand this but I pray the media, reporters and others will tread gently out of respect for the families. It has been ten years since my son died but the Virginia Tech tragedy brings it all back, as if it happened yesterday. You never get over the loss of a child. Let's remember this as we remember the loss of such promising children. It could have been one of ours and how would you feel.

The Virginia Tech killing spreee is senseless and tragic.

And what is it with so many non-Muslim friends who e-mailed me all over asking what "Ismail Ax" on Cho's arm means? And linking his killing spree to Islam when he stated in the video he is dying like Jesus?

Yes, this is also senseless, the allusions and speculations of connecting his killing spree to Islam based on "Ismail Ax".

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of Cho and to his family too, who are equally shocked and grieved by what happened.

Cho may be mentally ill, but how can one forgive the "sane" and "sober" for such speculations on "Ismail Ax" whatever that was and why Cho had it on his body.

It is time we turn to the living dealing with the deaths of their loved ones.

There are approximately 15,000 homicides with guns committed every year. Thus, every single day of the year on the average, 41 lives are taken. It is no less a tragedy that these 41 lives have been lost in 41 incidents than the tragedy of 32 lives lost in one. But one set is seen as a fact of life; the other as a horrific event. Oh, well.

I found Virginia Tech as a very friendly university and it is the friendly atmosphere in Blacksburg which surprised me. I have heard tales about discrimination against foreigners in Texas and other southern states. Virginia is a pretty sober place.
I also found majority of the faculty trying to help the foreign students as they understand the difficulties faced by Asians and Africans. Foreigners, especially the Dutch and Greek faculty were there to help me whenever the situation went ugly. The International Students Dean Dr Massey was an especially friendly person and told me to come him at times of difficulty, and there was help at hand for whoever who wanted it.
Unfortunately the English Department in Virginia Tech has failed on this occasion. They should have sorted his problems outright without picking on him and isolating him.

To say that I have a faith would be misleading. I am an Atheist and atheism is more of a mindset, not a faith. Nevertheless, I feel the need to respond.

When tragedy occurs in anyones life, it is important to begin putting the pieces together. I feel one of those pieces is why this young man felt isolated in a predominately Christian country. What does this say about Christianity? What does it say about the rest of society (muslim, Hindu, Atheist and other religions alike)?

What this points to is a lack of tolerance in our society and the only way to change such a society is to relinquish faith. Although it has obvious benefits--some people become more kind, and many churches, mosques, etc. attempt to help others--in general religion divides us. It says, 'be what I am or go to hell.'

How many people, I wonder, looked at this young man and thought him different, and different is bad. I know it is in our nature as humans to want to congregate with people who look like and act like us.

You would think that religion would cause us to move past this, but instead it divides us even deeper by insinuating that eternal life (a long time) will await us and if we don't join this particular faith, we are doomed.

Instead of looking toward faith to guide us in times of tragedy, we should look toward our environment and ask some serious questions. Questions like: how did our society cause this? What types of values are we instilling in our children to make them blossom into killers? And the most important question: How can we create a culture where everyone feels loved, nurtured and respected--regardless of their faith or lack there of?

the question asked how faith explains senseless tragedies like this one. It does not ask other to critique people's faith.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

When our government has clearly demonstrated that violence can be used as an option for attempting to solve a totally human-type of problem such as our invasion of Iraq, some troubled people opt to use it themselves to solve their real or perceived problems.

Throw away that idea of god, which is nothing more than a projected ego, and replace it with the image of child. Then, make children the real Gods and the rest of humanity the angels. Respect people for what they are: there's nothing more mysterious and yet more wonderful than a human being, at least in this part of the Universe.
And none of them has ever seen a god....

My faith accepts the absurd. I don't believe in a personal God but rather something that transcends existence without intervening it it. What happened at VT was absurd in some ways in that it cannot be fit into any pattern of meaning. The motives that fed it are not meaningful to anyone but the person who did it. Nothing can be offered that would explain it to the victims of their families. The only thing I can offer is that it will eventually become part of a past, a past filled in by events and people who do have meaning. There will always be a hole there but the hole will be surrounded by significance, by friends, by family and, yes, by love.

Karen

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

Christianity is a religion of resentment, as Nietsche observed. Look at the delight they take in the idea of the Rapture where millions they occasionally claim to love will be exposed to terrible suffering, much to their obvious delight.

I got to this thread by clicking my mouse on the face of a man who's the leader of the Southern Baptists. Ironic, since he's a major promulgator of ant-gay hatred and its consequent violence.

“When will the Churches use their pulpits to rise up against the sick American fascination with guns?” posted by:RAS

First of all I think we need to focus on the families and friends of those involved in this senseless crime of selfish emotional greed and ignorance. I think we should also take a moment and recognize the senseless killing of others and in greater numbers of those in Iraq, Africa and the rest of the world, victims of less opportunity and ability then our own. All instances are sad and equally just as wrong. Victims that will not even have the opportunity to attend college much less the misfortune of getting shot in one.

However since the topic has arisen and its going to be the only thing talked about in the media until it becomes as desensitized as Iraq lets try and face the issues of why churches should rise up against guns since this person is Sooooo passionate about gun control because he saw a news broadcast yesterday.

I would assume they will rise up after they are satisfied that every witch and sorcerer has been put to death for their thought crimes. Once we have stable control of the demonic you can be sure churches will not have further use of weaponry. Of course we could argue that we can still burn witches at the stake with little more than a box of matches and kindling. What a grand Idea we can pursue Satan and get rid of the guns in one fell swoop!

(excerpt from full Article on Website)http://www.myspace.com/dont_crash
"Churches against Guns"

T.C.

God is the Politican's escape card. When the Leaders talk of these great tragic events in a Nation's life, it's "we pray God will reach out with his everlasting love to the relatives of the victims." What he is really saying is " my Government and I are in no way responsible for this." or the buck doesn't stop here. Its good political sense to have an unreachable , uncontactable,unproveable God where the buck stops. Helps keep the suckers in line and the myriads of God representatives off welfare.

DAVID: "And obviously with all that this world is going through, wars, school shooting, iraq, darfur, humanity as a whole really has used morality good huh? Wow, do we need God more than ever these days."
_____

"need God more than ever"???

Well, "His" track record to date doesn't exactly inspire confidence, I would think. Back when "God" was a much bigger deal in the daily lives of humans than is now the apparent case, barbarity ran amuck with gruesome abandon just as today. Only, today, the tools of cruelty are much more effective.

Look: Is there "a Supreme Being"?

Well, yeah, it oughta be clear on just mini