Readers’ Responses to Our Question (156)

Questions, Answers on Islam
Why do we need to know about Islam?
• Islam is the second largest religion in the world, after Christianity, and will soon be the second largest in America.
• Muslims are, and will increasingly be, our neighbors, our colleagues and our fellow citizens.
• Our ignorance about Islam distorts our view of one-fifth of the world’s population and causes us to misinterpret important events and phenomena in the US and abroad.
• Peace and safety cannot be achieved in ignorance, but can be promoted through knowledge and the understanding that grows from knowledge.
Why do we need to know about Islam?
• Islam is the second largest religion in the world, after Christianity, and will soon be the second largest in America.
• Muslims are, and will increasingly be, our neighbors, our colleagues and our fellow citizens.
• Our ignorance about Islam distorts our view of one-fifth of the world’s population and causes us to misinterpret important events and phenomena in the US and abroad.
• Peace and safety cannot be achieved in ignorance, but can be promoted through knowledge and the understanding that grows from knowledge.
How did Islam originate?
Like Judaism and Christianity, Islam originated in the Middle East, where monotheism had flourished for many centuries. In the sixth century of our era, Makkah was emerging as a new commercial center with massive new wealth but also with a growing division between rich and poor that challenged the traditional system of Arab tribal values and social security. This was the time and the social environment in which the Prophet Muhammad received his divine revelation and called all to return to the worship of the one God and to a socially just society. Muhammad is thus not considered the founder of a new religion but rather a religious reformer.
The revelations Muhammad received emphasized social justice, corrected distortions of God’s revelations in Judaism and Christianity, and warned that many had strayed. The revelations called on all to return to what the Qur’an refers to as the “straight path” of Islam, the path of God, which was being revealed one final time through Muhammad, the last or “seal” of the prophets.
What do Muslims believe?
Like Jews and Christians, Muslims are monotheists. They believe in one God, the creator, sustainer, ruler and judge of the universe. Muslims believe in prophets—not just the Prophet Muhammad, but also the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, including Abraham and Moses, and of the New Testament, Jesus and John the Baptist. They also believe in angels, heaven, hell and the Day of Judgment. Islam teaches that God’s revelation was received in the Torah, the New Testament and the Qur’an. Thus, Muslims view Jews and Christians as “people of the book,” communities of believers who received revelations through prophets from God in the form of scriptures or revealed books.
As Christians view their revelation as both fulfilling and completing the revelation of the Old Testament, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad received his revelations from God, through the angel Gabriel, to correct human error that had made its way into the scriptures and belief systems of Judaism and Christianity. Therefore, Muslims believe, Islam is not a new religion with a new scripture; rather, Islam is the oldest religion, because it represents the original as well as the final revelation of the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.
What role does Muhammad play in Muslim life?
During his lifetime and since, Muhammad has been the model for Muslims to follow as they strive to do God’s will. In contrast to what is often a spiritualized Christian view of Jesus, Muslims look upon and love Muhammad as an entirely human figure—but one who had great spiritual as well as political insight and was guided by God. In turn, they look to his example for guidance in all aspects of life: how to treat friends as well as enemies, what to eat and drink, when to wash or pray, how to divide an inheritance, how to make love and war. Muslims’ observations or remembrances of what the Prophet said and did were passed on orally and in writing. These detailed records of Muhammad’s actions, interactions, judgments, decisions and dicta provide guidance for Muslims as to what is required to follow the word of God.
Where do most Muslims live?
Muslims are the majority in 56 countries worldwide, including Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria. In addition, significant Muslim populations can be found in India, China, the Central Asian republics and Russia, as well as Europe and America, where Islam is the second- and third-largest religion, respectively. The majority of Muslims are not Arab—in fact, only 20 percent of the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims originate from Arab countries. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.
Are all Muslims the same?
There is one divinely revealed and mandated Islam, but there are many human interpretations of Islam. There are Sunni and Shii Muslims, representing 85 percent and 15 percent of the world’s Muslims, respectively. Within these two major branches are diverse schools of theology and law; in addition, Islam has a rich mystical tradition. The basic unity of Islamic belief and practice expresses itself in diverse ways within many different cultures around the world.
Who are the Muslims in America?
Although estimates vary considerably, it is safe to say that there are at least six million Muslims in America today, making Islam the third-largest religion in the country, after Christianity and Judaism. Muslims have been present in America since the time of Columbus. Moriscos (Spanish Muslims forced to hide their faith) migrated to both Spanish and Portuguese settlements in America. In addition, between 14 and 20 percent of the African slaves brought to America from the 16th to the 19th century were Muslim, although they were forced to convert to Christianity. Other Muslims, particularly Indians and Arabs, also immigrated as free persons during this period and were able to maintain their spiritual, cultural and social identity.
The numbers of Muslims in America increased in the late 19th century with the arrival of significant numbers of immigrants from Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Many settled in the Midwest and Canada, found blue-collar jobs and assimilated into American society. After World War II, significant numbers of immigrants from Palestine and elites from the Middle East and South Asia came to America. In recent decades, many students from the Muslim world have come to study, and many well-educated professionals and intellectuals have come from South and Southeast Asia as well as from the Middle East for political and economic reasons. Many Muslim immigrants have worked hard to sustain their Islamic identity and pass it down to their children, and to establish institutions and community structures—including mosques, Islamic centers, Islamic schools, Islamic publication organizations, interest-free financial institutions and charitable organizations—to support these goals.
About two-thirds of America’s Muslims today are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. The other third is made up of African-American and other converts to Islam. The largest Muslim communities in the United States are in Boston, New York, Detroit, Dearborn, Toledo, Chicago, Houston and Los Angeles/Orange County.
How is Islam similar to Christianity and Judaism?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam, in contrast to Hinduism and Buddhism, are all monotheistic faiths that worship the God of Adam, Abraham and Moses—creator, sustainer and lord of the universe. All stress moral responsibility and accountability, Judgment Day and eternal reward and punishment.
All three faiths emphasize their special covenant with God, Judaism through Moses, Christianity through Jesus and Islam through Muhammad. Christianity accepts God’s covenant with and revelation to the Jews but traditionally has seen itself as superseding Judaism with the coming of Jesus. So, too, Islam and Muslims recognize Judaism and Christianity, their Biblical prophets (among them Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus) and their revelations (the Torah and New Testament).
Peace is central to all three faiths, which use similar greetings: shalom aleichem in Judaism, pax vobiscum in Christianity and salaam alaikum in Islam. All three phrases mean “peace be with you.” Yet leaders of each religion—Joshua and King David, Constantine and Richard the Lion-Hearted, Muhammad and Saladin—have engaged in holy wars to spread or defend their beliefs.

What is Islamic law?
The word islam means “surrender [to the will of God],” and the will of God is articulated in Islamic law, whose purpose is to regulate two types of interactions: those between human beings and God—that is, worship—and those among human beings—that is, social transactions. Throughout history, Islamic law has remained central to Muslim identity and practice, for it constitutes the ideal social blueprint for the believer and provides a common code of behavior for all Muslim societies.
In addition to the Qur’an and the Sunnah (example) of Muhammad, Sunni Muslims recognize two other official sources to guide the development of Islamic law: comparative analogical reasoning (qiyas) and consensus (‘ijma). Shii Muslims accept the Qur’an and Sunnah as well as their own collections of the traditions of Ali and other imams.
The Qur’anic texts provide moral directives, laying out what Muslims should aspire to as individuals and achieve as a community. The Sunnah of Muhammad, recorded in hundreds of thousands of individual narratives describing the Prophet’s private and public life and his individual and communal activities, illustrates Islamic faith in practice, and supplements and explains Qur’anic principles. Qiyas is used to determine parallels between similar situations or principles when no clear guidance is found in the Qur’an or Sunnah. The fourth source of law, ‘ijma, or consensus, originated from Muhammad’s reported saying, “My nation will never agree on an error.” This came to mean that consensus among religious scholars could determine the permissibility of an action.
Differences exist between the major Islamic schools of law that reflect the different geographical, social, historical and cultural contexts in which the various jurists were writing. In the modern world, Islamic law faces the challenge of distinguishing the divine prescriptions and eternal principles of the Qur’an from regulations arising from human interpretations in response to specific historical situations.

Is Islam compatible with democracy?
In pre-modern times all the world’s religions supported monarchies and feudal societies and then moved to accommodate modern forms of democracy. Similarly, Muslims today are debating the relationship of Islam to democracy. While most wish for greater political participation, government accountability, freedoms and human rights, there are many different ways to achieve these goals.
There are various reactions to democratization in the Muslim world. Some argue that Islam has its own mechanisms and institutions that do not include democracy. Others believe that democracy can only be fully realized if Muslim societies restrict religion to private life.
Still others contend that Islam is fully capable of accommodating and supporting democracy. They argue that traditional Islamic concepts like consultation (shura) between ruler and ruled, community consensus (‘ijma), public interest (maslaha) and interpretation (ijtihad ) can support parliamentary forms of government.
Many believe that, just as the modern democracies of America and Europe accommodate diverse relationships with religion, Muslims too can develop their own varieties of democratic states that are responsive to indigenous values.

Why don’t Muslims practice separation of church and state?
While Christians believe in rendering unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God, Muslims believe that their primary act of faith is to strive to implement God’s will in both their private and public lives, calling all to worship God,
promoting what is good and prohibiting what is evil. In their view, religion cannot be separated from social and political life because religion informs every action that a person takes.
The Qur’an proclaims that, like Jews and Christians before them, Muslims have been called into a covenant relationship with God, making them a community of believers who must serve as an example to other nations (Chapter 2 Verse 143) by creating a moral social order. The Qur’an states, “You are the best community evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong” (3:110).
In the ideal Islamic state, the political authority carries out the divine message. Such a state is a nomocracy, a community governed by God’s law, and not a theocracy or autocracy that gives power to the clergy or ruler. It should provide security and order so that Muslims can carry out their religious duties. Legal processes in a truly Islamic state implement rules and judgments from the Shariah , rather than creating new legislation.
Does the Qur’an condone terrorism?
The Qur’an does not advocate or condone terrorism. Islam, like all world religions, neither supports nor requires the illegitimate use of violence or acts of terrorism. Islam does permit, and at times requires, Muslims to defend themselves, their families, their religion and their community from aggression.
The earliest Qur’anic verses dealing with the right to engage in a defensive jihad, or struggle, were revealed shortly after the emigration of Muhammad and his followers to Madinah in flight from their persecution in Makkah. At a time when they were forced to fight for their lives, Muhammad is told: “Leave is given to those who fight because they were wronged—surely God is able to help them—who were expelled from their homes wrongfully for saying, ‘Our Lord is God’” (Chapter 22 Verse 39). The defensive nature of jihad is clearly emphasized in 2:190: “And fight in the way of God with those who fight you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.”
The Qur’an also provided detailed guidelines and regulations regarding the conduct of wars: who is to fight and who is exempted (48:17, 9:91), when hostilities must cease (2:192) and how prisoners should be treated (47:4). Most important, passages such as Chapter 2 Verse 294 emphasized that the response to violence and aggression must be proportionate.
However, Qur’anic verses also underscore that peace, not violence and warfare, is the norm. Permission to fight the enemy is balanced by a strong mandate for making peace: “If your enemy inclines toward peace, then you too should seek peace and put your trust in God” (8:61), and “Had God wished, He would have made them dominate you, and so, if they leave you alone and do not fight you and offer you peace, then God allows you no way against them” (4:90). From the earliest times, it is forbidden in Islam to kill noncombatants.
But what of those verses, sometimes referred to as the “sword verses,” that call for killing unbelievers, such as “When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush” (9:5)? This is one of a number of Qur’anic verses that are selectively cited to demonstrate the supposedly violent nature of Islam and its scripture. In fact, however, the passage above is followed and qualified by, “But if they repent and fulfill their devotional obligations and pay the zakat , then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind” (9:5). The same is true of another often quoted verse: “Fight those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, Nor hold the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book,” which is often cited without the line that follows, “until they pay the tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (9:29).
Are Women Second-Class Citizens in Islam?
The status of women in Muslim countries has long been looked to as evidence of “Islam’s” oppression of women in matters ranging from the freedom to dress as they please to legal rights in divorce. The true picture of women in Islam is far more complex.
The Qur’an declares that men and women are equal in the eyes of God; man and woman were created to be equal parts of a pair (Chapter 41 Verse 49). The Qur’an describes the relationship between men and women as one of “love and mercy” (30:21), so that men and women are to serve as “members of one another (3:195), as “protectors, one of another” (9:71). They are to be like each other’s garment (2:187).
Men and women are equally responsible for adhering to the Five Pillars of Islam. Chapter 9 Verses 71–72 states, “The Believers, men and women, are protectors of one another; they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil; they observe regular prayers, pay zakat and obey God and His Messenger. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is exalted in Power, Wise. God has promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein.” This verse draws added significance from the fact that it was the last Qur’an verse to be revealed that addressed relations between men and women. Some scholars argue, on the basis of both content and chronology, that this verse outlines the ideal vision of that relationship in Islam—one of equality and mutuality.
Women have been assigned second-class status in Muslim society based upon a misinterpretation of the Qur’an’s Chapter 4 Verse 34, which says “Men are the guardians of women, (on the basis) that God has granted some of them merits greater than others and (on the basis) that they spend of their property (for the support of women).” However, contemporary scholars have noted that the “guardianship” referred to in this verse is based upon men’s socioeconomic responsibilities for women. It does not say women are incapable of managing their own affairs, controlling themselves or being leaders, nor does it say that all men are superior to, preferred to or better than all women.
Another justification of second-class status for women may have been derived from the Qur’anic stipulation (2:282) that two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. If one female witness errs, the other can remind her of the truth because of there regularly changing physical and psychological conditions. Over time, this was interpreted by male scholars to mean that a woman’s testimony should always be given half the weight of a man’s. Contemporary scholars point out that the verse specifies witnessing in cases of a written transaction, contract or court case. At the time the Qur’an was revealed, most women were not active in business and finance, and a woman’s expertise in these fields was likely to have been less than a man’s.
Another area in which gender discrimination has been apparent historically is in the matter of divorce. The Qur’an, however, guarantees women equality with respect to the right of divorce. The Qur’an also restricts the practice of polygamy. Chapter 4 Verse 3 commands, “Then marry such of the women as appeal to you, two, three or four; but if you fear that you cannot be equitable, then only one.” A corollary verse, 4:129, states, “You will never be able to treat wives equitably, even if you are bent on doing that.” Contemporary interpreters have argued that these two verses together prohibit polygamy and that the true Qur’anic ideal is monogamy.
The 20th century has brought numerous significant reforms for women’s rights in both the public and the private spheres. In the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries, women have the right to public education, including at the college level. In many countries, they also have the right to work outside the home, vote and hold public office. Particularly notable in recent years have been the reforms in marriage and divorce laws.

Why does Islam separate men and women?
Many, though not all, Muslim societies practice some gender segregation, the separation of men and women in public spaces. Thus, in many mosques men and women have separate areas for prayer or are separated by a screen or curtain, and unmarried men do not mix with unmarried women except in very specific contexts, such as a meeting between two potential spouses that occurs in the presence of a chaperone.
The practice of separation has both religious and cultural origins. Muhammad’s wives were told to keep themselves apart from society. In the Qur’an (Chapter 33 Verses 32–33) we see, “O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the other women. If you fear God, do not be complaisant in speech so that one in whose heart is a sickness may covet you, but speak honorably. Stay quietly in your homes and do not display your finery as the pagans of old did.” Verse 53 tells Muslim men, “And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.”
The practice of segregation is also tied to the concept of women as a source of sexual temptation for men. Social interaction between unrelated men and women is regarded as potentially leading to immoral sexual activity. Because modesty and chastity are prized virtues in Islam, some Muslims therefore believe that unrelated men and women should have no contact with each other.
Opinions today vary about the necessity of separation of the sexes. Many Muslims continue to hold fast to the belief that women are the culture-bearers of Islam, as well as the source of male honor, but they also believe that the requirements of modesty can be met through appropriate dress and the limitation of interaction with unrelated males.
John L. Esposito is accepted by Muslims and Christians alike as one of America’s foremost expositors of Islam. He is University Professor of Religion and International Affairs and of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University, and Director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. His more than 30 books include What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam, The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality?, The Oxford History of Islam and, forthcoming in spring 2004, The Islamic World: Past and Present.
This article appeared on pages 21-28 of the September/October 2003 print edition of Saudi Aramco World.
POSTED BY JOHN L. ESPOSITO ON JULY 20, 2007 10:59 AM

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http://www.muhajabah.com/fundamentalism.htm

http://www.sacw.net/i_aii/hate.html

Continuing with the commentary on yoga, one thing that's important to point out is that both the word yoga and religion essentially come from similar roots. Yoga, from yuj, meaning "to yoke" or "union." Religion, from religio, "to bind," or sometimes put as "union." So you have two words that are pointing in the same direction.

Yet one is considered a verb and the other a noun. You "do" yoga while you "are" a religion. Well why can you not "be" yoga and "do" religion? Would you ask someone "What type of religion do you do?" Not usually, but the reality is not enough people do religion because they fall back on the comfort of believing themselves to be one, and therefore do not put forth the effort to continually manifest and evolve the term.

I deeply appreciate the physical asana practice; I teach 11 classes a week in New York City. It is preparatory for meditation, though most students do not treat it as such. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Any form of movement will give the student contact with the inner world. You can't force someone to strive for samadhi just because that is the purported goal of yoga. If you're practicing yoga for a "goal," its still rooted in ego. You practice to practice.

As a friend of mine recently said, you don't see many Buddhists demanding others become Buddhist. The Jewish/Christian/Muslim practices of conversion or surrender is unrealistic. If someone wants to pursue a certain path, they have to come to terms with it and move forward on their own. Forcing someone to do something is the surest way to ensure they won't do it, and making them feel guilty about it is not only selfish, it's immature.

As the Buddhist saying goes, though, samsara is nirvana. To be fully engaged and present in the every day is to be liberated. Wishing for or believing something in the future is to come is to constantly be searching for a thing that never arrives, for you are never present in the moment you are in.

Jihadist wrote:

"A Hindu fundamentalist party ........"

Pray, can you define what exactly is "Hindu fundamentalism" and in which Hindu religious text does one find explicit reference of such instructions ?

"As for "militant" Islam, if one is to do a literal reading of the Bhagavad Gita, it is all about war"

True. In this aspect yes Bhagavad Gita is very intimately close to Quran in terms of "Jihad". Looks like Mo and Kris were buddies. :-)

For thousands of years Yoga has referred to the realization through direct experience of the preexisting union between Atman and Brahman, Jivatman and Paramatman, and Shiva and Shakti, or the realization of Purusha standing alone as separate from Prakriti. While the specific terms and descriptions may vary, Yoga has solely to do with spiritual experience or realization. Any work with body, breath and mind are steps along the way to that highest union known as Yoga. Not until recent decades has Yoga been considered a mere physical fitness program. What is sometimes called in America a controversy about Yoga is not a controversy at all. It is a clear case of distortion or devolution, if not outright hijacking of the term.

Modern Yoga “styles” and “studios” emphasize postures. The Sanskrit word for posture is “asana” and the root of that is “~as” which means “to sit.” The Yoga Sutra (ca 2nd century BCE) is one of the most known of the ancient texts on traditional Yoga. According to the Yoga Sutras, asana or sitting posture is rung three of eight rungs of Yoga, and the purpose of that is meditation and the deep absorption known as Samadhi, rungs seven and eight. This is extremely clear to anyone willing to take the time to look into it.

The Hatha Yoga Pradipika (ca 15th century CE) is the most known traditional text that describes physical postures. Even a glancing overview of the this text will quickly reveal the true goals of Hatha Yoga as being the awakening of the subtle energy known as Kundalini, and the subsequent experience of the deep state beyond Meditation, which is known as Samadhi. In fact, it is only a small portion of the first of four chapters of that text that deals with postures, while the entire fourth chapter deals with Samadhi.

It has often and correctly been said that many of the principles of Yoga are in religion, but that religion is not in Yoga. Many of the principles of traditional Yoga are contained in the esoteric or mystical teachings of virtually all of the world's most known religions, including not only those of the South Asia region, but also those of the Judeo-Christian heritage.

Ironically, the most outspoken people in America about the true nature of Yoga as a spiritual practice are the Christian clergy and the followers of Christianity, while many so-called Yoga teachers avoid the subject. Most of the Christian critics emphasize the orthodox or exoteric practices of their own religion, and either fail to see, or are opposed to the esoteric or mystical roots of their own traditions. Thus, subtle principles of Yoga are also not seen, and are opposed.

Yoga is the whole, of which postures are a small part, in the context of the genuine goals of Yoga. If modern teachers, practitioners, and businesses would use words like asana, postures, or fitness, there would be significantly more clarity. We would have asana classes, postures studios, or fitness teachers, while allowing Yoga to remain the whole that it truly is. We could leave Yoga to remain as one and the same with the high state known as Samadhi, as has been said by the ancient sages of Yoga.

http://www.swamij.com/traditional-yoga.htm

HMS- heres a link to the original jew-bu, roger kamenetz (the author of the jew in the lotus- among others) is a guest voice here-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/04/soul_seeks_nourishment_but_nee.html

ever hear the phrase Jew-Bu? it's the term that describes a Jewish person who also dabbles in Buddhism. some famous examples of Jew-Bu's include Leonard Cohen and Goldie Hawn (and her daughter, Kate Hudson). but just because Jews find enlightenment elsewhere, it doesn't mean they abandon the Jewish faith entirely. in fact, several Reform and Reconstructionist Rabbis find spiritual strength in Eastern religions and apply them to their own faith and teachings. there is nothing in Buddhism or Yoga practices that conflicts with Judaism. this is much different than Jews who practices Christianity. they are no longer considered Jewish.

apparently, several people on this board claim that practicing Eastern religions is forbidden in Islam. i was not aware of that.

To AJ from Daniel. I was simply questioning what exactly meditation and yoga can do--nothing more. I hear everything from bringing inner peace--a general sense of calmness--to enlightenment (as if they provide the total key to human existence, supreme knowledge or something). I think more and more we will be getting at the capabilities of yoga and meditation. I suggest those truly enlightened--or at least those that have benefited the most--should step forward and instruct all of us. The world today certainly needs spiritual instruction. But where are all those people? You would think Asia would be full of them by now--after all the centuries. Is this a slanderous line of reasoning? I certainly make no claims of a method toward enlightenment other than reading books, eating properly and exercising, and perhaps a couple other things--and I am certainly open to being asked what I mean by enlightenment. So what can Yoga and meditation really do? And where are those that have truly benefited from such? Do such practices lead to enlightenment? What is meant by enlightenment? Just asking questions, and I find it difficult to believe any question would be slanderous to a truly enlightened person.

To AJ from Daniel. I was simply questioning what exactly meditation and yoga can do--nothing more. I hear everything from bringing inner peace--a general sense of calmness--to enlightenment (as if they provide the total key to human existence, supreme knowledge or something). I think more and more we will be getting at the capabilities of yoga and meditation. I suggest those truly enlightened--or at least those that have benefited the most--should step forward and instruct all of us. The world today certainly needs spiritual instruction. But where are all those people? You would think Asia would be full of them by now--after all the centuries. Is this a slanderous line of reasoning? I certainly make no claims of a method toward enlightenment other than reading books, eating properly and exercising, and perhaps a couple other things--and I am certainly open to being asked what I mean by enlightenment. So what can Yoga and meditation really do? And where are those that have truly benefited from such? Do such practices lead to enlightenment? What is meant by enlightenment? Just asking questions, and I find it difficult to believe any question would be slanderous to a truly enlightened person.

Chico

You say:

"I can tell you with all my heart that YOGA and MEDITATION are the most wonderful and powerful tool humans have."

I agree with you totally. I wish we can get rid of all religions and just take up Yoga (all its eight steps, from right behaviour to yoga of the mind) for one's spiritual and moral upliftment. Humanity does not need any religion. Just Yoga is more than enough to take care of all the physical and spiritual aspects of our existence.

The time has come for humanity to answer the question of "what is your religion" by saying: "I am a Yogi."

Daniel:

I am surprised no ones answered you yet. I see a lot of flawed arguments in your premise and will attempt to touch on all the semi-valid points you raised. I wont be held responsible if it turns out to be a lecture and/or a rant.

Hindu Philosophy claims that God is omnipresent. Every living being is born with a soul and that soul is basically God. Godliness is attained when you do deeds that are God Worthy.

A person is in the dark when he/she fails to connect with the inner soul and find the truth about God. Yoga is the practice of finding inner peace with oneself so that one can take the next step of reaching inside and finding God. That is the process of Nirvana (as claimed in the hindu and Buddhist philosophy). One of the reasons why we have so many gods can be directly attributed to this belief. Since everyone has a chance at salvation and eternal life, those who reach it act as prophets/deities in our culture. The Hindu philosophy also claims that every one has a different path towards god and that all paths lead to him/her only (Since we have multiple gods, we do not discriminate on the basis of sex. In fact we have neutral gendered deities also).

Moving away from the philosophy and on to your questions/assertations.

Scientific Inquiry into the eastern religions:
I have never heard nor seen anyone claim that the eastern religious works are supreme over science. We do not have the ridiculous debate over creation versus evolution. Nor do we claim that the earth was created 6000 yrs ago.
The whole aspect of the circle of life and death is as much a matter of belief and faith as the birth and death of Jesus Christ or the parting of the red sea by moses. The last person I know of who was enlightened is the Sai Baba of Shirdi (late 1800's- early 1900's). Hindus and Muslims flock to his grave in droves even to this day. Such was his charisma that Islamic followers and hindus revered him in harmony. (There was, methinks, some acrimony relating to cremation or burial of his earthly body). No one laid claims to be enlightened in the past millennium because one of the most important aspects related to Nirvana is renunciation of all worldly and material desires and i know they are a very small minority, those who do not crave the latest Ipods or pleasures of the opposite sex.
The Dalai Llama is considered to be enlightened; but I doubt one can validate this just as one cannot validate the holiness of the Pope. Also, if India was a Catholic nation, we would have had more Saints than the number of churches in America.
Gandhi never claimed to be enlightened. (Please pay attention to the spelling. Its a personal peeve of mine when people misspell names of such important figures in modern day history). In fact, initially, Gandhi always said, "God is Truth". He later rephrased that to "Truth is God" after see the deplorable things people do in the name of God. Gandhi did move away from personal desires and wants and can be considered as the closest to Enlightenment in the modern century.

Also, comparing spiritual enlightenment to economic prosperity is akin to apples and oranges. All I can say is, while we are not the richest country now, we were the richest when spirituality was at its peak about a 1000 years ago. Not a real argument, but your point is truly undeserving of an actual response. Enlightenment requires one to move away from material desires. I do not see the rationality nor any credence to your argument about economic advancement and enlightenment. Spirituality does not translate into economic wealth unless you use religion as the excuse for colonization and exploitation.

The practice of yoga and meditation leads to inner peace. I think a lot many people (and not just in India) can attest to the effect meditation and yoga have had on their inner self.

Most of what you wrote is bull crap.

You have not understood the concept of yoga, enlightenment or spirituality. Yet, you pose slanderous questions about the validity of meditation and yoga. Its laughable how you believed in your arguments and yet stand on a flawed premise.

Daniel:

I am surprised no ones answered you yet. In my non erudite way, I will try to rebutt these points you raised.

Hindu Philosophy claims that God is omnipresent. Every living being is born with a soul and that soul is basically God. Godliness is attained when you do deeds that are God Worthy.

A person is in the dark when he/she fails to connect with the inner soul and find the truth about God. Yoga is the practice of finding inner peace with oneself so that one can take the next step of reaching inside and finding God. That is the process of Nirvana (as claimed in the hindu and Buddhist philosophy). One of the reasons why we have so many gods can be directly attributed to this belief. Since everyone has a chance at salvation and eternal life, those who reach it act as prophets/deities in our culture. The Hindu philosophy also claims that every one has a different path towards god and that all paths lead to him/her only (Since we have multiple gods, we do not discriminate on the basis of sex. In fact we have neutral gendered deities also).

Moving away from the philosophy and on to your questions/assertations.

Scientific Inquiry into the eastern religions:
I have never heard nor seen anyone claim that the eastern religious works are supreme over science. We do not have the ridiculous debate over creation versus evolution. Nor do we claim that the earth was created 6000 yrs ago.
The whole aspect of the circle of life and death is as much a matter of belief and faith as the birth and death of Jesus Christ or the parting of the red sea by moses. The last person I know of who was enlightened is the Sai Baba of Shirdi (late 1800's- early 1900's). Hindus and Muslims flock to his grave in droves even to this day. Such was his charisma that Islamic followers and hindus revered him in harmony. (There was, methinks, some acrimony relating to cremation or burial of his earthly body). No one laid claims to be enlightened in the past millennium because one of the most important aspects related to Nirvana is renunciation of all worldly and material desires and i know they are a very small minority, those who do not crave the latest Ipods or pleasures of the opposite sex.
The Dalai Llama is considered to be enlightened; but I doubt one can validate this just as one cannot validate the holiness of the Pope. Also, if India was a Catholic nation, we would have had more Saints than the number of churches in America.
Gandhi never claimed to be enlightened. (Please pay attention to the spelling. Its a personal peeve of mine when people misspell names of such important figures in modern day history). In fact, initially, Gandhi always said, "God is Truth". He later rephrased that to "Truth is God" after see the deplorable things people do in the name of God. Gandhi did move away from personal desires and wants and can be considered as the closest to Enlightenment in the modern century.

Also, comparing spiritual enlightenment to economic prosperity is akin to apples and oranges. All I can say is, while we are not the richest country now, we were the richest when spirituality was at its peak about a 1000 years ago. Not a real argument, but your point is truly undeserving of an actual response. Enlightenment requires one to move away from material desires. I do not see the rationality nor any credence to your argument about economic advancement and enlightenment. Spirituality does not translate into economic wealth unless you use religion as the excuse for colonization and exploitation.

The practice of yoga and meditation leads to inner peace. I think a lot many people (and not just in India) can attest to the effect meditation and yoga have had on their inner self.

Most of what you wrote is bull crap.

You have not understood the concept of yoga, enlightenment or spirituality. Yet, you pose slanderous questions about the validity of meditation and yoga. Its laughable how you believed in your arguments and yet stand on a flawed premise.

Deb Chatterjee

Of course. One would not be so rude as to point out the Hindu fundamentalists that are equally violent/ A Hindu fundamentalist party, the BJP actually won elections in India and blast off India's first nuclear tests, which naturally brought out Pakistan to undertake their nuclear tests.

I live in Asia still and been to India often. The racism is still apparent among the fairer skin Hindus against the darker skinned ones. And don't tell me some Hindus are not bigoted still. You can tell Americans that all Hindus are not bigoted or fanatical, but not us in Asia. We know there are some who are.

As for "militant" Islam, if one is to do a literal reading of the Bhagavad Gita, it is all about war. But of course, for that holy text, one must read it methaphorically as a struggle for one's soul. Or jihad if I may say so. The Bhagavad Gita is very Islamic in some ways - a lesson on the Greater and Lesser Jihad. So, like the Hindus.

As for the Taj Mahal and as to whom actually build it, India's tourism brochures at the Taj Mahal itself recounts it as a symbol of love by an emperor for his wife. Regretably, a Muslim Moghul emperor.

And by the way, the Indian mutiny was precipated by Indian Muslims too leading India on its quest for eventual independence from British rule.

I hope to get you going on this Deb Chatterjee my friend. Come on. You are too smart to be going on blaming a religion for the faults of some of its adherents.

So, let us practice some Buddhist meditatation here on feathering and tarring whole peoples and religions.

Honestly, who cares about all of this make believe?

If I follow Religion A, I don't dare do X and Y from Religion B because Deity GGG will condemn me to Hell/Heaven/Purgatory/72Virgins/Whatever.

If yoga makes people feel better, than go for it. Don't worry about make believe deities stressing out over it.

It all depends on what one means by the laws of God and Abraham. If you mean the ten commandments, then yes, by all means. If you mean all manner of oral tradition, retranslation, omission and inclusion, and commentary (that we know as the Bible and the Talmud) then of course not.

So if you are Jewish or Christian or Muslim and think God wants you to follow the ten commandments, then you must observe that short and profound wisdom. Eastern spiritual philosophies by and large support it and there is no conflict. In fact, there is synergy!

Another way of answering this question is by asking whether you believe your relationship to God requires mediation by a church. Yes... no Buddhism.

Victoria,

I am not harrassing you. I am simply noting that all Muslims whose evil book and followers like yourself want to destroy Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism. Renounce the militant agenda and the anti-female messages of the Koran. And admit that Mohammed was an illiterate warmonger who should have been eliminated early in his attempt at world domination via his mythical presentation that he was some prophet and representive of God.

Yoga is 5,000 years old, hardly "new age". It's intentions and outcome are entirely peaceful. How anyone could see it as potentially bad, it amazing.

I have two comments:
1- Yoga is a Non-christian practise, which teaches how to elevate your body/spirit without god of the bible of koram or any other stories' book. You can find an excuse to put, say 'jesus' in it, but it is still a hindu/buddist tradition.
2- I used to be a christian and now that I am an atheist, I can tell you with all my heart that YOGA and MEDITATION are the most wonderful and powerful tool humans have. Getting to understand your body/mind relation is AMAZING.
love to all of you for ever!!!!!

Booga Booga!!!

[scare ya?]

I don't have any problem with religions as long as you keep your religion and your god to yourself. You can believe in any book, any story and follow any ritual you want... in the privacy of your own home or in the company of fellow believers.

It becomes a problem when you start imposing YOUR god(s)... YOUR book and YOUR religious beliefs on other people. Now this can be a problem because many of YOUR books tell you to do all kinds of stuff to people who are not interested in believing YOUR god(s)! So you gotta be mindful of that and kinda ignore those bits in YOUR book. If that is a problem for you.. then YOU are a problem for everyone else. Unfortunately that is what many of you are trying to do. I wish you would just leave us alone... go read your books and talk to your God on your own.

You are free to bang your head against rocks...but don't throw the rocks at other people if they don't chose to bang their head against rocks (or choose to drown instead of banging heads against rocks :))

May your God go with you! Peace!

The Atheist

-------
BTW it seems almost pathetically arrogant of the contemporary religions to claim that their prophets are the "true" prophets and their "god" was (or is or will be) the true god. Two of three major Abrahamic religions have been around for more or less two thousand years. Judaism a few thousand years more perhaps. Think about it...Greek civilization was around atleast two thousand years before Christ. They were the most advanced people of their time with great achievements in all fields of life. And even their religious beliefs about Zeus and the gods of mount olympus didn't survive more that two thousand years. I find it amusing when books on yoga and buddhism are found in "new age" religion section in the book store. At least have the humility to accept that there are other books, other beliefs and other streams of thought which may be equally valid (or equally crazy) as YOUR book(s) and perhaps older than your book(s).

The faith of every "believer" (in allah or jehovah or whoever your god may be) here matters only as much as the faith of a greek citizen in zeus two thousand years before christ. If you faith helps you be a better person... more power to you. But let other people have their own crazy faiths.

liberated- what did you do before you became obsessed with harassing me?
possibly im doing a public service by letting you focus your energies!

concerned the liberated christian-

what does that have to do with the price of t'ai chi lessons in china?

Marco Polo noted on Ms. Taylor's commentary pages:

"Victoria:

No offense, but the Koran is as much a work of fiction as the Bible is. Both religions have gotten the message wrong. The followers also seem to have lapsed into a spiritual coma when it comes to expressing their faith in a positive way.

I say take all religious bibles(Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.,) and combine them to form one all powerful do-it-yourself book that we can pay 20 bucks to read once and never look at again. "

Bravo to this suggestion as long as we clean up the Koran by removing its references to "pretty wingy thingies" delivering messages to the "prophet", any prophecies made by said prophet and all of his dictated thoughts about killing non-believers and plundering and looting the world in the name of Allah.

Professor Crossan et al have done a great job in cleaning up the NT and the Conservative Jews along with historians and archeologists have done a great job in cleaning up the Torah. Time to "Crossanize" the Koran (and Victoria/Jihadist/Sunnis/Shiites/"Talibaners").

FUN WITH T'AI CHI

i just bought a mop and groceries, and put the bags at either end of the mop and carried the whole thing on my neck.
it got me to thinking of all the ways t'ai chi shows up in my physical activities in life.

when i was in high school we had a talent competition and ill never forget this one guy, his talent was this-
he hummed the theme song from hawaii five-o
anyone remember that one?

and then he got in surfer position and pretended to surf- then hlafway through switched to the other side-

he got a tepid response- but i laughed and laughed hysterially.

so over these many years, many times i am standing in the middle of the bus- and t'ai chi my way through it, flexing knees and bending with the motion-

so i started chasing the morning commute misery by humming the hawaii 5-0 theme, and bus-surfing.

and i do the flip to the other side too-
often- people will pretend they dont see this, but the flip always gets someone-

i have enlivened many a depressing train and bus commute with this act- and still do.

so if you see a hijabi wearing muslim woman bus-surfing in the future- its me, come up and say 'hey victoria- im surprised they havent carted you off to the funny farm yet'.

peace

o daniel- i have met 2 solid living enlightened humans in my life, and neither were yogis but that doesnt matter-

a good yogi master has the best sense of humor

Many people, of various faiths, take yoga lessons in public facilities and private clubs for pure physical exercise, stretching and relaxation. I don't feel there is any religious component in my classes. The yogi may ask the class to reflect on what causes them stress and try to spread peace - these are good for one's health, perhaps one's soul but I don't think it encourages anyone to abandon their religion for another.

The discussion on this board has been fascinating, but it seems something of a course correction is in order. If one of the problems of monotheistic religions is that one must have faith in God--that one cannot be certain there is a God and one must make a leap of faith--one of the problems with practices such as yoga and meditation is that it is claimed there is a method of achieving enlightenment, and therefore it should not be too much to ask if there are clear examples of enlightened persons today through these practices.

In other words practices such as yoga and meditation are directly open to the scientific question of proof for claims. Yoga and meditation do not expect one to believe in God, they directly state that if one follows such an such practices one will become enlightened--therefore it should not be too much to ask for proof.

How many people truly know of anyone enlightened by the practices of yoga and meditation? Furthermore, should not the people of India be more enlightened than any other people for having used these practices for centuries? Furthermore, if the Indians are on the correct course why should we bother with economic advancement in India or much of anything else--for after all, Indians know how to achieve enlightenment?

Can anyone even name an enlightened person existing today? The dalai lama? How about Ghandi? Was Ghandi enlightened?

And what is enlightenment anyway? How much advancement can we expect a person to make under such practices? In short, yoga and meditation are open territory for science. They make claims which can be scientifically verified. The problem is not one of claiming a God apart from human existence which cannot be proven or disproven by science. Certainly Eastern practices in general will find themselves more vulnerable to science than the monotheistic religions.

If the monotheistic religions are under fire for their miraculous claims (or rather miraculous events, etc.), Eastern religions find claims such as reincarnation and the process of escaping the cycle of rebirth perhaps even more vulnerable because if the practice of yoga and meditation leads to no truly discernable improvement the whole edifice is in danger of collapsing.

Yoga and meditation claim themselves to be a method--a quite exalted method--and this method will be questioned more and more. It would certainly help to determine the efficacy of this method if people truly having been enlightened by it would make an appearance....

Most major religions embrace some form of mediation. Quakers have been practising silent worship - listening for God's "quiet voice" - for many years.

I find meditation to be a means of listen to God within me. In addition to prayer, meditation opens my heart.

FYI: Buddhism is not actually a religion, despite the way it appears (please no "walk like a duck" analogies). Buddhist teachers describe their path as a way to understand our minds and clear our understanding of reality.

Why on earth would anyone think yoga and meditation are un-Christian? Jesus Himself said "Go in your inner room and pray" - specific instruction to meditate. The Bible is full of references directly instructing the faithful to meditate, about the "inner temple" and instruction to take care of one's health and happiness. The most ancient and unadulteratedforms of contemplative Christianity actively practice meditation and have for thousands of years.

Hinduism and Budhism are not religions. It teaches you a way of life. Meditation is not a religion, it teaches you concentration in whatever you believe in.

Believing all religions represent a key to Heaven is great as there is no religion in Heaven. Unfortunately, Islam and its Koran wants to torture and kill us unless we support their plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers. i.e. Islam is not a religion but an agenda for militaristic world conquest by Islamic clerics.

So many of you seem to miss the obvious...Buddhism isn't a religion at all, it recognizes no god...it's an ethical practice, maybe a philosophy, even though many Buddhists suggestively behave as religionists...meditation is an enchantment, like viewing a late Kandinsky, for example...anyway, Vipassana meditation's where you want to go if you're searching for an alternative to the blood-soaked religions of christianity and islam...

beautifully put happy yogi

As there is only one god, one source, one creation, one spirit, it seems arrogant to presume God does not speak to every gathering, to every unique spiritual path, even to each individual - in the most comforting and effective manner, language, custom and metaphor appropriate to their understanding.
To imagine a God incapable of loving us all, without exception, is to grossly underestimate, and thereby to miss the spectacular wisdom and kindness of our most sacred source, our most precious and divine light.
Our differences are more political and territorial, than spiritual, for we are all made in a very similar image and likeness.
Any spiritual path that takes one closer to the central mystery of our being is a good practice.
Anything that divides us is someone's fearful attempt to control the small view they have of their creator...

Dear Jon & Sally,
I was born and raised into the catholic faith. My family was extremely religious with many family members joining the clergy...religion never sat well with me. When I discovered eastern philosophy, it made so much more sense to me in basically saying that religious people seek salvation through external sources..I say one should seek salvation from within oneself! Thank god I'm done with organized religion, it is the biggest fraud brought upon our civilization. May all the people of this world start being responsible for their own actions and seek their answers from within their heart and soul. That is where the answers are.

Dear Jon & Sally,
I was born and raised into the catholic faith. My family was extremely religious with many family members joining the clergy...religion never sat well with me. When I discovered eastern philosophy, it made so much more sense to me in basically saying that religious people seek salvation through external sources..I say one should seek salvation from within oneself! Thank god I'm done with organized religion, it is the biggest fraud brought upon our civilization. May all the people of this world start being responsible for their own actions and seek their answers from within their heart and soul. That is where the answers are.

i posted this and liked it so much i thought id share it here-

the religion of islam itself is the middle way.
extremes in religion are specifically cautioned against by our Prophet(peace be upon him)

when something good happens to me, i say,"alhamdoulila"(thank ALLAH)

when something bad happens to me i say,"alhamdoulila"

when something good happens to me i say,"alhamdoulila"

when something bad happens to me i say,"alhamdoulila"

and on and on.....................

For Gandalf, The East Meets The West

This particular question about Yoga sets up a temptation to deliver an opinion that is either uneducated or prejudiced, or both.

I agree that it is best to say the best about your own belief system, not to disparage or opine about someone else's.... Unless someone wants to compare notes in a respectful manner.

I have the best of both worlds.
The East Meets The West.
I have Rosary Beads to meditate on the Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I wear a Designer's Lable...a Scapular
(or you can call them dog tags ..but this war is not of this world ...it is spiritual.)

I believe in God. The Father, The Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of the Father. From there He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit
I believe in the Holy Catholic Church
I believe in the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the body and Life Everlasting....Amen

Life just doesn't get any better than that.
What more could I ask for?
I get 7 sacraments not just 2.
I get the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.
I get a group of prayer warriors that are out of this world.
I get big brothers and sisters in Christ that have gone before me and are helping me all the time. Got Milk?
I get the Sweetest, Kindest, most Gentle and Loving Mother Ever. Any time I need Her---
and sometimes just to say "I Love You".
I get support in all of the hardships and tragedies of my life, no matter how bleak or hopeless things seem in the moment.
I get a light and happy heart...and can give to all those around me in need.
Yes, I am a sinner, but I never give up trying to be holy, yet realizing even this is a gift from God. Peace of Christ be with you.

Deb Chatterjee wrote

"All other traditions/religions must unite to eliminate the radical/militant Islam so that rationality and tolerance exists. Till that effort yields any tangible effort, we continue to live in the dark ages."

Lets not stop there. We should eliminate the radical/fundamentalists of all religions. Until that happens we will continue to live in the dark ages.

Anonnymous wrote:

"The Hindu sage Swami Vivekananda called prophet Mohammad an untrained yogi."

Whatever ! My point is that the discussions on this blog is rather pointless. We have the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism spreading across the globe. Negationists or apologists of Islam and bleeding-heart liberals argue that the militants are a small/tiny minority. Well, to cause mayhem and catastrophic results like the 9/11, Bali bombings and 7/7 (UK), 7/11 (Mumbai), we don't need millions of Muslims to act. It takes a few "bad Muslims" to do the "jihadist job" to propagate their version of Islam.

The spiritual discussions on meditation and philosophies etc., are to be reserved for the more tolerant Abrahamic religions. All other traditions/religions must unite to eliminate the radical/militant Islam so that rationality and tolerance exists. Till that effort yields any tangible effort, we continue to live in the dark ages.

Deb Chatterjee:

Nice mail.

You say: "Semitic religions lack the philosophical/intellectual basis behind spiritual upliftment."

The Hindu sage Swami Vivekananda called prophet Mohammad an untrained yogi. The Swami immediately understood the kind of spiritual experiences that Mohammad had but the latter couldn't comprehend or make sense of due to his lack of training in Yoga as there was no intellectual/spiritual tradition in the Arab world where such experiences could be explained or put in context.

So Swami said, Islam was founded on genuine but limited spiritual experiences of Mohammad but these got enveloped in a lot of supterstitions of contemporary Arab society since that was the only way Mohammad, untrained in Yoga, could build on the rare insights he gained in that cave.

That is why though Islam has a spiritual core, the rest of its philosophy is totally secular or even militaristic.

Mohammad lacked the yoga techniques through which he could have gone deeper into his spiritual experiences and gained even more profound insights of peace with all living beings.

He misinterpreted his limited spiritual experiences and added a lot of Arab superstitions to it, which is quite unfortunate.

It is these superstitions -- hatred of infidels, planting of flag of Islam all over the world, rigidity in thought, status of women, rejection of modern education, heaven to suicide bombers, 72 houris -- that have become the curse of the world today.

If only there was a yogi who could have explained to Mohammad what those spiritual experiences -- hearing strange sounds in the cave -- meant and how to develop those further, the world would have been a different place today and centuries of "battles with infidels" would have been avoided.

i think it is the picture of lodi gyari in the corner there that jogged that snippet

many years ago, in pittsburgh pa, where i was raised- i was dabbling in tibetan buddhism and came across the lungumpu.

theyre an esoteric bunch of monks who live in the mountains and chant like fiends (which im not saying is a bad thing at all)

what they do is they chant and walk great distances in the freezing cold, wearing little protective clothing.

they chant and bounce along-

one day there was a blizzard and it was below zero and wicked bitter cold out- and there was several feet of snow also which i dont see so much anymore-the kind that freezes exposed skin very quickly-

(when i was a kid i used to ride in the back of a pickup truck bed for hours in the freezing cold- and i used to say rosary prayers as was my wont and wouldnt even shiver)

on that day i bounced lungompu style for many many hours. it was so cold and furiously blizzarding that there were very very few cars even on the road.

i said 'la ilaha ilala" (there is no god but god)
non stop all day and i practically floated all over the city. i didnt get frostbite, didnt even get cold- even my tennis shoe clad wet feet-
i actually remained warm and certainly surprised alot of different people when i showed up at their door and bounced back on down the road.

i just thought of that and i guess thats about as integrated a spiritual practice as one could get.

it was in my true fool for god days and is vivid enough to remember that i feel like it is happening now.

just thought id share

many years ago, in pittsburgh pa, where i was raised- i was dabbling in tibetan buddhism and came across the lungumpu.

theyre an esoteric bunch of monks who live in the mountains and chant like fiends (which im not saying is a bad thing at all)

what they do is they chant and walk great distances in the freezing cold, wearing little protective clothing.

they chant and bounce along-

one day there was a blizzard and it was below zero and wicked bitter cold out-the kind that freezes exposed skin very quickly-

(when i was a kid i used to ride in the back of a pickup truck bed for hours in the freezing cold- and i used to say rosary prayers as was my wont and wouldnt even shiver)

on that day i bounced lungompu style for many many hours. it was so cold and furiously blizzarding that there were very very few cars even on the road.

i said 'la ilaha ilala" (there is no god but god)
non stop all day and i practically floated all over the city. i didnt get frostbite, didnt even get cold- even my tennis shoe clad wet feet-
i actually remained warm and certainly surprised alot of different people when i showed up at their door and bounced back on down the road.

i just thought of that and i guess thats about as integrated a spiritual practice as one could get.

it was in my true fool for god days and is vivid enough to remember that i feel like it is happening now.

just thought id share

Until Muslims clean up their Koran, they are not to be trusted. Note how they never condemn their evil book giving credence to our concern when Muslims enter our neighborhoods and/or ride public transportation.

Jihadist:

Caste system is not a part of the Hindu religion. It is a part of the Hindu society. The two are distinct. I am not here to deny the evils and racism perpetrated in the name of caste "varna".

Taj Mahal was NOT built by Shah Jehan. It has been alternately claimed that it was a temple of the Hindu god Mahadev (Shiva) that the Muslims destroyed and built a masoleum there. Read the book:

P. N. Oak, TAJ MAHAL: THE TRUE STORY. (available on http://www.amazon.com )

For Gandalf, The East Meets The West

This particular question about Yoga sets up a temptation to deliver an opinion that is either uneducated or prejudiced, or both.

I agree that it is best to say the best about your own belief system, not to disparage or opine about someone else's.... Unless someone wants to compare notes in a respectful manner.

I have the best of both worlds.
The East Meets The West.
I have Rosary Beads to meditate on the Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I wear a Designer's Lable...a Scapular
(or you can call them dog tags ..but this war is not of this world ...it is spiritual.)

I believe in God. The Father, The Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of the Father. From there He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit
I believe in the Holy Catholic Church
I believe in the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the body and Life Everlasting....Amen

Life just doesn't get any better than that.
What more could I ask for?
I get 7 sacraments not just 2.
I get the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.
I get a group of prayer warriors that are out of this world.
I get big brothers and sisters in Christ that have gone before me and are helping me all the time. Got Milk?
I get the Sweetest, Kindest, most Gentle and Loving Mother Ever. Any time I need Her---
and sometimes just to say "I Love You".
I get support in all of the hardships and tragedies of my life, no matter how bleak or hopeless things seem in the moment.
I get a light and happy heart...and can give to all those around me in need.
Yes, I am a sinner, but I never give up trying to be holy, yet realizing even this is a gift from God. Peace of Christ be with you.

when dawn breaks
hear the hearts own prayer call
and draws me to my own, the god within
what love i have that is ALLAH my all
that calls to me on air, in breath, the wind...

Deb Chatterjee

How are you? Thanks for the info. Actually, I was not suggesting the Muslim prayers (solat) or doa is the same as Buddhist meditation. I was only saying it do have the same effect and impact for pious and devout Muslims. Do reread my previous post.

You know as well as I do that Buddha never preached in a belief in a Supreme Being, but you do know the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. Prayers are offered to Lord Buddha by Mahayana Buddhists almost like to a deity for salvation. I saw a lot of that in Japan but in Thailand and Burma too, where prayers to Lord Buddha is out of respect and reverence for him apart as a path to salvation. Of course there are strains of Buddhism where some monks said, if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him. I will not go into the reasoning on that here.

And in spite of all the history of Islam in India as pointed out by you and Islam being such a vile and violent religion, and Hindu Indians calling Muslim Indians "you people" and blaming Ind