Readers’ Responses to Our Question (315)

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp

Folks,

I looked on Oprah's web-site and with a little searching, I did indeed find all that is said below to be true. This is one of the most dangerous things for our country and even the world because of her vast following and influence. If you are a believer of the God of the Bible, you really need to read the following:

You really need to read this -

"Oprah and Friends" to teach course on New Age Christ

Many of you, like me, have probably been Oprah fans for a long time. This is very discouraging news to hear about one who has such tremendous influence on the general public. Please ask God to show Oprah the real Jesus Christ.

Just to make sure this was true, I went on Oprah's website and there it is. The below article is very interesting, so I thought I would share.

Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 4:50 PM

Subject: Oprah joins false prophets Bible warned about

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/smith-oprah.htm or

"Oprah and Friends" to teach course on New Age Christ

Jesus Christ being reinvented, redefined, and blasphemed and, this false New- Age Christ teaching is about to make huge inroads into the world, with the help of the queen of television talk shows, Oprah Winfrey.

Oprah Winfrey, beginning January 1, 2008, on her daily radio program will offer a year-long course on the New Age Christ , in a lesson a day and completely cover the 365 lessons from the Course in Miracles "Workbook."

Listeners will be encouraged to buy A Course in Miracles for the year-long course, and an audio version, recited by Richard (John Boy
Walton) Thomas will be available on compact disc.

Those who finish the Course will have a wholly redefined spiritual mindset-a New Age worldview that include the beliefs that there is no sin, no evil, no devil. A Course in Miracles teaches its students to rethink everything they believe about God and life, and, bluntly
states: "This is a course in mind training" and is dedicated to "thought reversal."

The Course in Miracles -in reality-is the truth of the Bible turned upside down.

Oprah told her television audience that Williamson's book, A Course in Miracles was one of her favorite books, and that she had already bought a thousand copies and would be handing them out to everyone in her studio audience. Oprah's endorsement skyrocketed Williamson's book to the top of the New York Times bestseller list .

A Course in Miracles is allegedly a "new revelation" from "Jesus" to help humanity work through these troubled times. This "Jesus"-who bears no doctrinal resemblance to the Bible's Jesus Christ-began delivering channeled teachings in 1965 to a Columbia University Professor of Medical Psychology, Helen Schucman.

One day Schucman heard an "inner voice" stating, "This is a course in miracles. Please take notes." For seven years she diligently took spiritual dictation from this voice that described himself as "Jesus."

Here are some quotes from the "Jesus" voice of A Course in Miracles :

· "There is no sin . . . "

· A "slain Christ has no meaning."

· "The journey to the cross should be the last ' useless journey."

· "Do not make the pathetic error of 'clinging to the old rugged cross.'"

· "The Name of Jesus Christ as such is but a symbol... It is a symbol that is safely used as a replacement for the many names of all the gods to which you pray."

· "The recognition of God is the recognition of yourself."

· "The Atonement is the final lesson he [man] need learn, for it teaches him that, never having sinned, he has no need of salvation."

Popular author Wayne Dyer told his PBS television audience that the "brilliant writing" of A Course in Miracles would produce more peace in the world .

The Course in Miracles-based book, Forgiveness, continues to be sold in Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral bookstore as Schuller prepares to host a January 17-19, 2008, "Rethink Conference" at his Crystal Cathedral.
-----------------------

2 Timothy 3 (King James Version)

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." II Timothy 3:16

"That the Lord thy God may shew us the way wherein we may walk, and the thing that we may do." Jeremiah 42:3

"...We will obey the voice of the Lord our God." Jeremiah 42:6

As the Day of the Lord approaches, we need to take warning of the Words of Jesus in Matthew 24:24-27: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; GO NOT FORTH; he is in the secret chambers; BELIEVE IT NOT. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

The Bible speaks plainly of the coming wrath. Jesus warns us through Luke: "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them." *** Luke 21:8
"Be not deceived." Many shall come in His name saying they have the anointing. He further said, "As the time draws near..."; many would come to draw you away. We are warned "Go ye not therefore after them."

CHRISTIANS/BELIEVERS.....Take heed - WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS - READY YOURSELVES BY KNOWING WHAT GOD OUR CREATOR SAYS IN HIS WORD - YOUR LIFE WILL DEPEND ON BELIEVING ONLY HIM FOR HE DOES NOT LIE!!

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" Rev. 14:12

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" Matthew 24:35

And PLEASE pass on this one...

ALL KIND OF POSSIBLE QUESTIONS ASKED BY NON MUSLIMS ARE ANSWERED AT BELOW WEB SITE:

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY
by Dr. Zakir Naik

I
Position of Jesus (pbuh) in Islam:

(i)
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh).

(ii)
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).

(iii)
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.

(iv)
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).


(v)
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.

(iv)
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission.

II
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY:

1.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity

One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]


2.
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law

Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]


3.
God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)

The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)
"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]


(ii)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]


4.
Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity

Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).


5.
Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God

The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]


6.
The First Commandment is that God is One

The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.

Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.

NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

III
CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT:

1.
God is One

The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad".
It is a Hebrew quotation which means:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]


2.
Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah

The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:

(i)
"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]


(ii)
"I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]


(iii)
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]


3.
Old Testament condemns idol worship


(i)
Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]


(ii)
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

INTRODUCTION TO JUDAISM
by Dr. Zakir Naik

(I) INTRODUCTION TO JUDAISM:

Judaism is one of the important Semitic religions. Its followers are known as Jews and they believe in the prophetic mission of Prophet Moses (pbuh).

(II) CONCEPT OF GOD IN JUDAISM:

(i) The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad"

It is a Hebrew quotation which means:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]

The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:

(ii) "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]

(iii) "I am Lord, and there is none else There is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45 : 5]

(iv) "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]

(v) Judaism condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

(iv) A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

In Judaism too, we find the same thread of monotheism, that is seen in other religions.

(III) MUHAMMAD IN JEWISH SCRIPTURES (THE OLD TESTAMENT):

1) Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in the book of Deuteronomy:

a) God Almighty speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

b) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is like Moses (pbuh):

i) Both had a father and a mother.

ii) Both were married and had children.

iii) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime.

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment.

v) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people.

vi) Both died a natural death.

c) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac. The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

d) Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from God Almighty he repeated it verbatim.

Deuteronomy (18:18):

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

2) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

3) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon

chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians (H Q. 61:6).

Ladies & Gents:-PLEASE be real; Let us discuss the ONLY Issue about Discrimination TODAY in US.

We MUSLIMS(approx 22% in USA; as 99% of Blacks were all MUSLIMS, before they were at Gun-Point FORCED to become christians), are being Hounded & Discriminated & Harassed & Arrested & Economically-tortured & practically treated sometimes even worse than the slaves(as 200 years ago Blacks were treated in the South).
Best Regards, Arshad Ali Khan, UMMAA-Broadcasting, Rolla, Missouri.
[Listed under media at Rolla chamber of Commerce at
http://www.rollachamber.org ]

Elaygee writes:

"People who worship dead Jews on a stick and then torture and murder his relatives and descendants deserve anything they get."

Thank you so much for your wonderful post! You made my day!! Today, I saw a parking dispute in which one (Jewish) party responded to the other's racist provocation with a barage of epithets, among them "pope sucking, child f'er." I confess I have been no slouch in calling the christians, catholics, whatever, as I see them, but I would never have come up with that language on my own. (I'm doing my best to pass it on.)

We lack their infinite capacity for hatred, which has deprived us developing the hate speech repertoire we so desperately need. These things are strategic. You use them until you get the job done. We have also always preferred the exercise of morality and intellect over fists. But we need fists. You don't fight a conflagration with a cup of water.

The times, after 2000 years, they are a-changing. Hopefully, they will change enough before the christians, regardless, of their denomination stop their savaging of the earth.

Thank you, Elaygee. I hope to read more of your posts.

Elaygee writes:

"People who worship dead Jews on a stick and then torture and murder his relatives and descendants deserve anything they get."

Thank you so much for your wonderful post! You made my day!! Today, I saw a parking dispute in which one (Jewish) party responded to the other's racist provocation with a barage of epithets, among them "pope sucking, child f'er." I confess I have been no slouch in calling the christians, catholics, whatever, as I see them, but I would never have come up with that language on my own. (I'm doing my best to pass it on.)

We lack their infinite capacity for hatred, which has deprived us developing the hate speech repertoire we so desperately need. These things are strategic. You use them until you get the job done. We have also always preferred the exercise of morality and intellect over fists. But we need fists. You don't fight a conflagration with a cup of water.

The times, after 2000 years, they are a-changing. Hopefully, they will change enough before the christians, regardless, of their denomination stop their savaging of the earth.

Thank you, Elaygee. I hope to read more of your posts.

People who worship dead Jews on a stick and then torture and murder his relatives and descendants deserve anything they get.

My family recently experienced discrimination within Cub Scouts of all places. We are Catholic and my son is receiving his sacrament of First Reconciliation and this falls on the same day as his pack's Pinewood Derby. The person in charge of the Pinewood Derby stated that because my son would not be able to fully participate in Pinewood Derby that we were not fully committed to Scouting. We have chosen to not participate at all because of this situation. Frankly, I can't imagine participating in something where my family's religious beliefs and obligations are equated to a conflicting sporting event.

The Boy Scouts of America talk about duty to God and I believe they, as an organization, truly believe in that. However, this little man in this little pack doesn't believe Catholicism belongs in Boy Scouts. We'll probably try to find another pack for my son but it's sad that we have to do that simply because our religious beliefs are not the same as his.

My family recently experienced discrimination within Cub Scouts of all places. We are Catholic and my son is receiving his sacrament of First Reconciliation and this falls on the same day as his pack's Pinewood Derby. The person in charge of the Pinewood Derby stated that because my son would not be able to fully participate in Pinewood Derby that we were not fully committed to Scouting. We have chosen to not participate at all because of this situation. Frankly, I can't imagine participating in something where my family's religious beliefs and obligations are equated to a conflicting sporting event.

The Boy Scouts of America talk about duty to God and I believe they, as an organization, truly believe in that. However, this little man in this little pack doesn't believe Catholicism belongs in Boy Scouts. We'll probably try to find another pack for my son but it's sad that we have to do that simply because our religious beliefs are not the same as his.

Do you know that our founding fathers called the HOLY BIBLE the cornerstone for American Liberty? it was put in our schools for light. Our country was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since we have eliminated God from the equation from American life, we have thus eliminated the reason this nation first began.We've staked our future in our ability to follow the 10 commandments with all our heart. You cannot have national morality apart from religious principle. Right now we have nearly 150,000 kids in t hese war zones we call public schools. When you eliminate the WORD OF GOD from the classrooms and politics, you eliminate the nation that word protects. Now america is #1 in teen pregnancy,drugs,violent crimes and illeteracy. Everyday we have a new holocaust of 5,000 unborn dying,while pornography floods our streets like open sores. when people would rather come out of the closet than clean it the judgement of God is going to fall.do you realize God will be returning one day in all His glory.Be bold and tell the world tht you must be saved.If you want to see kids live right then stop handing condoms out in schools and start handing out the Word of God in schools. we need to stand up and say THAT WE NEED GOD IN AMERICA AGAIN!!!!

I am a devout Christian and I do NOT think religion should be taught in school. I don't want anyone teaching my child about religion. I think that is my responsibility. I take what he is taught very seriously to a point that I don't let him go into just any Sunday School classroom or any other church function where he will be taught unless I know what they are teaching and believe what they are teaching is the truth. I also don't think evolution should be taught in schools because, in my opinion, it is a belief that the world evolved (a religion I don't believe and don't want thrown on my child). You can say it's not a religious belief but I think anytime you believe something that has not been proven to be the only true and right idea it is a religion. Athiests think religion is based ones belief in something that can't be proven (at least the athiests I know). If that is true one would have to say evolution is a religious belief and since it is still theory and not proven and therefore it should not be taught in schools.

Again, I believe it is the parents' responsibility to teach their children about religion, not the school. I believe in God and I believe He will hold me accountable for what my son is taught and because of that I take teaching Christianity serious. My job is teach my son, it's up to him whether he accepts what he's been taught.

m995k

I was baptized a Catholic, and am the beneficiary of a first-rate Catholic elementary and high-school education. I have nothing but good things to say about the nuns and brothers who taught me. I also have what can only be described as utter contempt for the Vatican, a conviction that arose out of the official Papal reaction to the clergy sex-abuse cases in Boston. Repugnant, repulsive, and unforgivable ...

I don't recall ever being aware of anti-Catholic sentiments being expressed in my presence - but I doubt I would have cared. Having found the institution of the Church to be irrelevant to my life at the age of 12, I walked away and never looked back. (I do sometimes miss the Latin Mass, and I'm partial to Gregorian chant. But the Papal Mafiosi are insufferable ...)

Religion should not be taught in school except as part of a course in human psychology where fables and myths and their effects on human behavior are discussed. Religion itself should be abolished as it is a complete scam.

Matthew chapter 7 says, Judge not that ye not be judge, it all points to God i was raised a Catholic and there is nothing wrong with it

I am a practicing Catholic and have been my entire life. Being a Catholic has brought some discrimination my way, but not much. Being Catholic in America has not brought nearly the level of discrimination that I've studied or seen given to other groups - sometimes, even through my own foolishness.

If I may suggest, for me, three things - Catholicism, the suffering of others, and my own imperfections - have taught something of both humility and arrogance. Our beliefs and perspectives puzzle over intangibles, over what we cannot prove – but do sense and pursue, regardless, in a sometimes insatiable quest for meaning. As one little person in a very big and crowded Earth, I can only imagine that my sense for meaning is but a sliver, a glimmer of some great intangible that is more than just my own individual person or take on things. Billions have had, do have, and will have their own glimmer too (be it from the perspective of anyone who exists). Ponder a galaxy, a relationship, an injustice, quantum theory, a catastrophe, a birth, a disease, liberation, etc. Who am I to discriminate or discount a person's glimpse and reconciliation with the meaning of these things? So long as their meaning is not harmful to others or themselves...

Rather, could we help one another toward a greater understanding of our existence? Not merely relative to the individual's experience, but honoring and sharing in one another's lives – a shared experience - a community? This blog is a great example of that, in all it's tone and color – for the most part, a little victory of dialogue over indifference and intransigence.

In my journey, if Catholicism teaches me nothing else but this - let it be Jesus' sermon on the mount - the beatitudes - that all meaning is tending toward Love, and should.

I'm coming to this debate late... how did it turn into something about education and why are people only interested in discrimination in the United State and Europe. I'm sure the Chaldean nuns that were murdered in Iraq last month would like to hear about the pedophile priest scandal and how stupid the Pope is... if they were alive that is! Thousand of Catholics are killed every year simply for being Catholic. The KKK murdered and tormented Catholics in great numbers as recently as the early 20th century. Am I discriminated against here in the US??? sure I am, but I don't complain because at least I can practice my faith without losing my life. Compared to others my slights are very small.

BTW Public schools in the US actually boast a higher rate of pedophile predators than the priesthood, (priests number about 1.75% which matches the general population while educators believed to be about 10%) but that isn't such a good story. The priest story is a way to point out how wrong the Catholic Faith is... hmmmm discrimination perhaps?!

If you want to talk about culture wars, the worst thing you could do is teach religion in the public schools. They do this in Saudi Arabia, the demand for power is endless, and you have a nation where the only exports are what they found in the ground, and terrorists. Here, the various groups would be vying for pitching their truths. It would be a disasterfor society and tolerance. Should we teach a Jim Jones religion, or a spinoff of the 7th's day adventists known as the Branch Davidians, or perhaps Wahabi Islam.

I'd suggest a different course. We need to teach how brainwashing works, how people come to murder in the name of God, how Christianity is guilty of Genocide, and how religion, which has no proof except in the minds of the believers (or should we say brainwashed) has been in many ways the curse of civilization. I've always felt that deep down the real believers fear they are wrong, and only by finding more converts can they get into a comfort zone. Try for instance how Bush has played to the religious right, who don't want to teach about condoms, for they want people to fear sex, because fear is all they really have to sell. Think of how this impacts our trying to gain control of the AIDs epidemic in Africa, where infection rates are 25 to 40% in some countries, All this in the name of God. It is all hypocrisy, some day people will look back on the age of religion as just superstition that brought mankind some of its worst disasters.Beware, Beware, Beware, just say no.

Historically, the Catholic Church has done some terrible things. No one denys that. However, the faith itself is alive and well. Many Catholics I have met are more knowledgeable about the history of their faith and are more open in their views than many Protestants. If you do some research on the second Vatican Council, which took place in the 1960's, you will find that Pope John Paul II recognized light and value in other religions. Members of the Catholic Church have been engaging in more interfaith dialogue. Visit the Pope John Paul II Center in Washington, DC. You may be pleasantly surprised.

As a Catholic, I do not feel that I have been specifically discriminated against, but I do feel that there are certain stereotypes and prejudices which are inevitably brought up when religion is discussed. For example, the sexual abuse scandal. The Catholic faith does not rest on the very human sins of a few priests. The vast majority of Catholics was just as shocked and horrified by the scandal as the rest of the world. Catholics have been painted as the evil institution for so long, and changes have been made in the faith in recent years.

As in all matters of faith, I feel that it is imperative that we educate ourselves about what it is we are criticizing before we make judgements - if we even judge at all. After all, it is God and God alone who will judge our faith.

Victoria --Yes, I am aware of that christianity is 'oriental' (a presumptuous western concept), middle easterner, to be more precise. Thank you however for taking the time to point this out.

However, I was referring to religions that originated in China and India: hinduism, buddhism, taoism.

ENRIQUE-
you wrote
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In my understanding, this is one of the differentiators between my faith and oriental religions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you ARE aware, are you not, that YOURS is an oriental religion?

Dear Leonard,

Thank you for your comments. You and Victoria are right: I am presumptuous about my faith and do not regret it, for at a certain point in my life I experienced Christ's presence in a remarkable manner and, while my perception fluctuates constantly, it has not left ever since.

Yet that should not extinguish the possibility of friendship with others who have not had this experience. If it does, and the others authentically want friendship, then there is a problem with how I present my faith to those others. Jesus mastered this art and I presume that some day I will improve.

You commented: "especially because your presumptuousness (perhaps even arrogance) included your notion that you might help me by moving me toward your faith. How could you think such thought after reading my posts criticizing those of AMviennaVA and some of my other posts?"

That is because I am certain of the Resurrected Christ. Zeal, yes, but not arrogance I assure you.

You commented: "I feel or sense that your faith is peculiar to you because of your special character".

Undoubtedly, there is a personal dimension to my faith, and a cultural one, etc. In my understanding, this is one of the differentiators between my faith and oriental religions. I become more fully and truly me through partaking of Christ. Paradoxically, that means I have to let go of egotism, vanity, of any attitude etc that may offend Him, as the earliest gospels attest; yet that does not make me less me, but more.

You question: "Why do you insist that all can achieve your faith by accepting Christ and receiving the eucharist?"

I have not 'achieved' my faith. Christ touched me. Prior to that I had restricted myself to praying the 'Our Father', but not believing that Christ was "I am who am"; rather, that he was a holy man, somehow touched by God. God, was a mystery that I understood little of; indeed, just prior to my experience, I questioned whether true love even existed. I was resigned that 'beauty' (aesthetic or moral) was 'as good as its gets'. After my experience, I sought Him in the Eucharist and found Him. I insist that He is objectively there and that anyone who sits, without even being a Catholic, in His eucharistic presence, may be touched, if He so chooses, for the Holy Spirit is (also) a living person. I find it odd that some people who believe in a spiritual universe consider themselves capable of personhood, which is quite an advance in evolution, yet deny "I am who am" the possibility of that level of depth and intimacy.

Furthemore, I insist that if one addresses Mary, the only primary human source on the Incarnation event, she will also become manifest.

You observe: "You ought to be able to commune with the Lord in your closet and there receive his peace."

The resurrected Christ is everywhere. Sometimes I pray and it is like talking to myself or to a wall. Yet other times, he makes himself more detectably present, wherever I pray. Other times, His presence manifests and I am not even praying, although He is always at the center, even if in the background.

In the presence of the Eucharist, for some reason, he is more consistently present, even if I say nothing. It is the converging point for all Christians, indeed, for the whole cosmos. Yet Eucharist is also whereever his love is found; wherever 2 or more are gathered in His mane.

I realize however that there are Catholics who do not seem to be aware of this; who do not seem to experience the Eucharist as I do. I had always felt His presence in the Eucharist (even before the experience), but had not really appreciated as fully as I should have what it meant, what was really taking place. I attribute having always felt it that to having been baptized.

I believe total reverence and humility is required; but that a non-catholic who just sits in His presence with a respectful and open mind and wishes to start a frienship will be welcomed, as he promised. An empty church is a good idea; many people often make me want to leave; I detest any irreverence in His presence and I often see that when there are other people.

I hope I have been clear. Thanks again for your comments and for the friendship which I hope will remain possible.

Enrique

Discrimination against Catholics?

Certainly there is some good in the teachings of the Catholic church. But the more I learn about it, the more I see the dangers. I certainly don't discriminate against Catholics, most of my good friends in life have been Catholic.

On the other hand, one only has to look at the history of the church, both past and recent. The church, along with others who consider themselves infallible, have been a blight upon mankind for millenia. The crusades of the middle ages, the whole dark ages itself - 1000 years of a civilization trapped in darkness and hundreds of years of war. The Witch trials - perhaps a million women denounced and burned to death, it was almost the sport of the day, as to Romans were the gladiators battles, and Lions vs. Christians, etc. yes I recognize that these crimes existed in other religions as well, e.g. the Puritans in New England and their Salem witch trials. Then there was, and it still survives to some extent the crimes against Jesus' own people, the Jews, encouraged by Christianity.

Then there is the clash of Science and religion. The Inquisition was simply about science, e.g. Galileo and lots of others who dared challenge the church of infallibility. No one knows how many died. Recently, the abuse of children by priests all over the country - certainly a terrible crime, but the very worst part about it was how the church hierarchy swept the problem under the rug for decades, for this hiding of the problem was necessary to maintain their 'infallibility' . Of course now we know.

So let's not talk about discrimination against Catholics. I don't think I've ever seen discrimination against Catholics during my lifetime in the USA, though it did occur earlier and Northern Ireland was a good example of discrimination by two groups against each other.
Let's instead talk about lies, pure and simple, an institution whose primary interest is its own continuation of power. Lets talk about how the Church tries to dictate America's social policy, and how when religion combines with Government, terrible things happen. Constantine about 200AD decided he could use the church rather then fight it, and the net result was the horrors of the middle (or dark) ages I've enumerated above. Look at extremist Islam as another example. The more religious a nations government is, the worse it becomes for the people.

Until the Catholic Church gets modern, wakes up, questions itself on every front, it is going to suffer. Better it then mankind.

AMVIENNAVA- youre asking me why mans inhumanity to man exists? that is a bigger question than i can answer- as i stated on the other post- i try to always substantiate my information with appropriate sources- jewish historians for jewish citations etc--
while youve provided a histroy by the orientalist john balfour baron of kinross- that is your prerogative-

as to me posting on past and present practices-
i try to stick to this ideal-

teeny tiny minds talk about things
mediocre minds talk about people
great minds talk about ideas

i try to keep my conversation in the realm of ideas

i have no interest in pointing fingers at the wrongs of others i history or tearing up any one elses beliefs or the practices of their co-believers

(except when it comes to zionism- but that is quite current and very overwhelmingly pervasive to my well being and the well being of the world)

and then i only present numbers and figures and still not delve into judgements

i hope this satisfies you

what country did you grow up in?
do you live in vienna now?
i know the turks were stopped at vienna in their surge europeward- theres a big statue there isnt there?

if you want to talk about islam- there are discussion (and much bashing) on muslim panelists posts

sorry i dont have an answer- but by your own post you stated that such a practice has been stopped- although i have never heard such a thing accused of the shia and sunni- ido remeber vividly the destruction of a mosque at te beginning of the war-even a un rep was killed-

as we speak 100s of 1000s of iraqis are streaming out of iraq taking refuge in syria and jordan- they estimate the total will top 1 million today

to date after 4 years of war the united states has absorbed a total of 33 iraqi refugees

In all the posts one comment on Islam caught my eye.

"We should take a honest look at our religion and reform its defects."

This is something we should take to heart on all religions and even the generic term spirituality. Are we (humans) so arrogant to think that in our relatively limited existence that we have determined the ultimate truth in ANY religion?

With all of our advances we have yet to master the science of the physical realm. What makes us think we have a greater understanding of the metaphysical and spiritual realms? At least in the physical we can prove or disprove things with science and even then the accepted “truth” is later proven to be wrong.

Yet we are willing to concede ultimate truth based on what we have heard from other people’s interpretations of old writings; Bible, Koran, Bhagavata, Buddhist scripture) on something that can not be proven but only taken on faith. Even the sum knowledge of all the teachings may be incomplete.

Faith, religion, spirituality is a continual journey and we are a long way off from the total truth. I think the truth is far greater than we even imagine. One of the gifts from our religions is their differences as they help us explore and evolve our understanding. Some people use the differences to separate us rather than bring us together.

Paraphrasing a quote from Dr. Wayne Dyer…”The goal is not to better than anyone else it is to be better than I was yesterday”.

Let your religion, faith or belief make you a better spirit. Discrimination on any level does not serve this purpose.

In all the posts one comment on Islam caught my eye.

"We should take a honest look at our religion and reform its defects."

This is something we should take to heart on all religions and even the generic term spirituality. Are we (humans) so arrogant to think that in our relatively limited existence that we have determined the ultimate truth in ANY religion?

With all of our advances we have yet to master the science of the physical realm. What makes us think we have a greater understanding of the metaphysical and spiritual realms? At least in the physical we can prove or disprove things with science and even then the accepted “truth” is later proven to be wrong.

Yet we are willing to concede ultimate truth based on what we have heard from other people’s interpretations of old writings; Bible, Koran, Bhagavata, Buddhist scripture) on something that can not be proven but only taken on faith. Even the sum knowledge of all the teachings may be incomplete.

Faith, religion, spirituality is a continual journey and we are a long way off from the total truth. I think the truth is far greater than we even imagine. One of the gifts from our religions is their differences as they help us explore and evolve our understanding. Some people use the differences to separate us rather than bring us together.

Paraphrasing a quote from Dr. Wayne Dyer…”The goal is not to better than anyone else it is to be better than I was yesterday”.

Let your religion, faith or belief make you a better spirit. Discrimination on any level does not serve this purpose.

victoria @ March 22, 2007 9:58 AM:

For documentation you may reference The Ottoman Centuries by Kinross. There are other documents, including the histories of the subjects of the Ottomans.

For someone who likes instructive posts about Islam (I grew up in an Islamic country by the way), you are not informative about past and present practices.

I was looking for an explanation, and would still appreciate one, however.

hank you jeff - it takes a big man to come back and retract

amviennava-
you got a response there- on the other blog-

i have no fascination with orgiastic blood sprees-

as i answered you elsewhere-

there is little point to your post other than defamation or misrepresentation-

if you want to join the ranks of muslim-bashers youre welcome to join them on muslim panelists responses- where it is a normal occurrence-

in the main blogs- such accusations seem to detract from the main conversation

Victoria or V or any Muslim poster:

(I first posted this on the wrong blog ... apologies).

The blog has taken an interesting turn. There is a clarification I would like from Muslims:

A trait of Ottoman rule was to hold their Christian subjects in the cities hostage. Every 15 years or so, on Fridays, the gates would be locked, and after Friday prayers, the faithful would engage in an orgy of massacres lasting from 1 - 4 days. (Those must have been very persuasive sermons delivered by the muezins). It served to keep the 'slaves' in the countryside obedient, since they tended to have family in the cities.

Granted the Ottomans empire is gone, but I have noticed similar events in Iraq, especially in the early days of the insurrection: following Friday payers, the faithful would engage in some atrocity against those of the other sect (Shia or Sunni).

My question is WHY still?

(I realize that the past year or so, by which time Iraqi society has become essentially segregated by sect, the practice has abated).

March 22, 2007 9:05 AM

My Bad,
Not the same Victoria.
Jeff

whoda thunk it? newscynic gallantly coming to the defense of the catholics- ( know newscynic you are fair)

jeff reed- i really DO try to keep pastes down- sometimes when im hounded by CTCNL i get that way- or if i think a really false or malignant idea (not that its been done here) is being propogated-

but most of those posts that are really looongare my own insensate babblings-

also, like eric burden- i hate to be misunderstood (well- the ideology of my religion actually) and thats only because im trying to swim against fox news and their pervasive influence-

i had a point but---

o yes- enrique-

i call it the 'god loves me more than you syndrome'

the last and greatest hurdle in ones spiritual journey is spiritual pride-

i am not accusing you of it- but there is no place in making assumptions about the state of anothers soul-

if your path is truly the right one- that is wonderful- (for you as it can only be)

judgement only comes from god

possibly youve encounterd st john of the cross' dark night of the soul?

i reccomend it for anyone no matter what their religion or non-religion-

possibly youre not aware- but when you ask your lord and savior to save people- you are implying that you yourself are in a position to judge their souls and have decided they need something you have- and if they do or dont- its not really our place to say-

judge not lest ye be judged and

in islam we believe that we will be judged with the mercy with which we have judged others-

it is a great incentive to be lenient

its not my place even to say this-but im just letting you know that it bruises feelings

its kindly meant and i hope kindly taken-

Marco polo, A Hermit, & Candide

Marco Polo: You wrote to Christians: "try to reflect on the reasons why you deserve to be shut in".

I have reflected and I believe I have the answer! It is because they disagree with you right?

said, "The Catholic Church, next to the Nazi SS, is the most evil institution in history."

I am not even Catholic and that one hurt my head. How can you get away with saying that unless you know nothing of the Aztec priests, the Assyrian army, the Scythians, the Thuggee of India. Mao probably killed more people alone than the Catholics did in the last thousand years. As bad as the Spanish Inquisition was it was small potatoes next to the Cultural revolution. Now that's world class terror!

It seems Candide is guilty of taking advantage of modern society's moral blind spot. It seems were are to be open minded and fair to everyone unless they are Catholic. Again I am far from being Catholic but the blatant unfairness of this offends my sense of justice. Go ahead and nail the Catholics (and every one else) when they are wicked, but don't trash all Catholics and their history because you don't like how they think.

The Catholic church has a long history and it is often tainted with blood and gold. No human is perfect and every church (and every corporation and every nation) is made up of people. Has the Catholic Church done much “evil” in god’s name? I would say yes, but last time I checked Mother Teresa was catholic as well.

A Hermit: Your points about the ACLU and freedom of religion are as before SPOT ON. Thank you.

Sorry. I did not intend repeated posts of the same message I wrote to Enrique. A computer error or this website's error explains the repetition.

Dear Enrique;

The problem is not offense, but presumptuousness. And that is a problem not because it hurt me (for, it did not) but because it inteferes substantially with free exchange and possibility of friendship, especially because your presumptuousness (perhaps even arrogance) included your notion that you might help me by moving me toward your faith. How could you think such thought after reading my posts criticizing those of AMviennaVA and some of my other posts?

You deny that your faith is what I described in my first post treating the matter, the post that carried my confession that I respected your faith because of its innocence, like that of Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith. But, still, I feel or sense that your faith is peculiar to you because of your special character, that it is not available to just anyone who accepts Christ and receives the eucharist.

Why do you insist that all can achieve your faith by accepting Christ and receiving the eucharist? Perhaps (I cannot know) the reason is that otherwise you would lose faith in the Roman Church's regime that prescribes the rituals that are central to your faith.

But if your faith rests on a "reality" of Christ and his function, then the Church ought to be irrelevant. You ought to be able to commune with the Lord in your closet and there receive his peace.

Respectfully,

Leonard

Dear Enrique;

The problem is not offense, but presumptuousness. And that is a problem not because it hurt me (for, it did not) but because it inteferes substantially with free exchange and possibility of friendship, especially because your presumptuousness (perhaps even arrogance) included your notion that you might help me by moving me toward your faith. How could you think such thought after reading my posts criticizing those of AMviennaVA and some of my other posts?

You deny that your faith is what I described in my first post treating the matter, the post that carried my confession that I respected your faith because of its innocence, like that of Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith. But, still, I feel or sense that your faith is peculiar to you because of your special character, that it is not available to just anyone who accepts Christ and receives the eucharist.

Why do you insist that all can achieve your faith by accepting Christ and receiving the eucharist? Perhaps (I cannot know) the reason is that otherwise you would lose faith in the Roman Church's regime that prescribes the rituals that are central to your faith.

But if your faith rests on a "reality" of Christ and his function, then the Church ought to be irrelevant. You ought to be able to commune with the Lord in your closet and there receive his peace.

Respectfully,

Leonard

Dear Enrique;

The problem is not offense, but presumptuousness. And that is a problem not because it hurt me (for, it did not) but because it inteferes substantially with free exchange and possibility of friendship, especially because your presumptuousness (perhaps even arrogance) included your notion that you might help me by moving me toward your faith. How could you think such thought after reading my posts criticizing those of AMviennaVA and some of my other posts?

You deny that your faith is what I described in my first post treating the matter, the post that carried my confession that I respected your faith because of its innocence, like that of Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith. But, still, I feel or sense that your faith is peculiar to you because of your special character, that it is not available to just anyone who accepts Christ and receives the eucharist.

Why do you insist that all can achieve your faith by accepting Christ and receiving the eucharist? Perhaps (I cannot know) the reason is that otherwise you would lose faith in the Roman Church's regime that prescribes the rituals that are central to your faith.

But if your faith rests on a "reality" of Christ and his function, then the Church ought to be irrelevant. You ought to be able to commune with the Lord in your closet and there receive his peace.

Respectfully,

Leonard

Leonard,

I assure you there was no intent to offend.

However, given the tone I perceived on parts of your comments on mine, I erroneously pictured you as a young person. I should have been more careful as that presumption shaped the tone and content of my response.

The intent was to share that which I believe to know is most precious, something I believe I am obligated by faith to do. As is unquestionably your prerogative, you have rejected what I have offered as Truth, but which you consider a delusion. Accordingly, there is nothing left for us to discuss at the level of faith.

Hopefully this will clarify the matter but please let me know if it does not.

Enrique

Victoria

I have commented critically on numerous religions, but not Judaism. Like you, I cannot tolerate Zionism, perhaps the greatest scourge of our time. Still, Zionism is not Judaism. Jews are of many varieties, most not even Semite or related to the Hebrews of the ancient promised land. Judaism is not a single religion, just as Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism are not.

One forum contributor suggested that Jews were smarter than others, or more talented. Then why are so many Zionists?

Still, I shall submit a little comic fable that treats the matter. For, if Jews are the best, then perhaps we ought to discriminate in their favor, not against them. [Positive thought, right?]

THE VIRTUE OF MOYLISH PRECISION

The time was an era of feudal Japan, a century before the emergence of the Tokagawa Shogunate. The emperor's weakness encouraged wide and bloody strife among the always-feuding feudal feuds.

One war-lord was closing-in on obtaining preeminent power. But suddenly his General died, and the stunned baron worried sorely for needing a new chief Samurai. So he issued, world-wide, a noble notice that he sought the finest swordsman of all, for command of the great feud's army.

A year passed, and on the day designated for trials, three candidates appeared: a (Japanese) Ninja, a Chinese soldier-monk (Shaolin priest), and a Jewish Samurai (whose appearance looked like an oxymoron, more than his title may seem).

The war-lord asked the Ninja to demonstrate why he ought to be head warrior. The Ninja opened a diminutive pouch, and a bumblebee blurted out (like a miscast argument). Whoosh sliced the Ninja’s sword, and the bee dropped dead, cut perfectly in half. The war-lord observed: "That IS impressive!"

The war-lord asked the Shaolin priest to display his skills. The deft monk (somewhat a visionary) opened a miniature match-box, and a fly buzzed forth. Swish, swish, the Shaolin’s blade flourished, and the fly fell dead in four very small pieces. The war-lord exclaimed: "That is VERY impressive!"

The war-lord requested the Jewish Samurai show why he ought attain the Gereralship. The bearded mercenary tapped his round black hat and opened a tiny vial. A gnat streamed free. "Shalom," the master whispered, and his sword flashed twice, but the gnat remained alive and continued flying. Disappointed, the war-lord asked: "But haven't you failed miserably? Why is the gnat not dead?"

The Jewish Samurai's eyes smiled as he answered: "My lord, circumcision does not seek to kill."

From Victoria,
"i try not to take over these boards with looongposts and use links instead"
Sorry sis, since when?
:)
Jeff

Enrique [21 March 2007, 7:04 PM]

You wrote:

"If you are going to read philosophy or theology, be fair to yourself, and consider also studying Augustine, Aquinas, Teilhard, Lonergan or even (Anglican) Whitehead, and most importantly, and carefully, the gospels.

I have studied all those you name, even the various versions of the various gospels, even those excluded from the Roman "Bible."

I did not expect you were capable of such presumptuousness.

You wrote:

"Thus you may be able to balance the field of influences to which you are subject, and hedge your bet, or better for you yet, change it altogether, for it is your existence that you are betting, young as you sound."

I do not hedge bets. I do not bet. I act on feeling (including empathy but not emotion) spontaneously or on logical analysis determinatively and irrespective of outcome, comme l'Etranger or the Knight of Faith (though the Knight's premises were not like mine).

Surely, I would not hedge a bet with belief in a delusion like God or a delusional structure like Catholicism or any Christian religion. I would not suggest that you change your existence or your perspective of it. I did not expect you were capable of such presumptuousness.

I am 66. I was a law professor 26 years. My published works include major essays and minor treatises concerning law, philosophy, history, anthropology, economics, statistics, logic and symbolic logic, and forensics.

My "youth" owes itself to two matters: (1) I eat according to Chinese Medicine, and I adjust my experience according to Yin/Yang of Tao, not a religion or philosophy or anything spiritual, but the essential physical dynamic of the universe and all its events. (2) I was born with extraordinary energy, like light.

I did not expect you were capable of such presumptuousness.

You wrote:

"In any event, I hope you don't become stuck in one perhaps endlessly fruitless loop, and at least open your heart, as you may already be doing, to the poor and most vulnerable and oppressed. May you seek sincerely and intelligently as evidently you are doing, but with humility, awe in the face of mystery, and reverence. May Christ have mercy on your soul."

I did not expect you were capable of such presumptuousness.

Alas, you are a proselytizer, too. I am disappointed.

Enrique @ March 21, 2007 7:04 PM: We are essentially in agreement.

insha'alla

i try not to take over these boards with looongposts and use links instead-

http://www.submission.org/women/equal.html

ive read both pickthall and ali and have never been overly impressed with their intentions as translators-

go look at the outrageous translation of 4:34 in particular (my own gauge of a persons mentality)

now im a very responsive person- so even in the wake of extreme aggressive offense (it occurs with regularity on the panelists who are muslims or muslim friendly like armstrong or esposito)
since most americans have a cursory fox news concept of islam i take pleasure in busting these hoaxes and misunderstandings-also i see the danger of continued ignorance of what it actually teaches-

as for the first posts- well, what?

we are FASTING!
from food, drink, sex, chewing gum-
it is not meant to be a party- its intention is to help us control our urges- our baser natures- to instill compassion in us for those who dont have food or drink or their physical needs met-

( i still balk at their translation of apparel etc- a good translation is 'covering')

now im sorry i cant respond at length now because i have to go right now-

also id say that i am probably a good deal more on the mystically orientd side than enrique there-

o- as far as a healthy mind not needing to defend itself- well- thats right.
peace i shall return

AMNVIENNAVA -- Right, I do not believe that the United States, by any stretch of the imagination, is, or has ever been interested, or qualified to help, let alone save the world. One only needs to consider how the country itself was originally inhabited and constituted; the lands it seized, the reservations, slavery, the multitude of countries were it has intervened or invaded shamelessly alleging defense of 'national security' only to appropriate natural resources, along with whole economies and cultures. Obviously the corrupt architecture of the imperialist capitalist system that it shamelessly promotes guarantees that the best of intentions will ultimately result in an aggravation of poverty. While I am not a Marxist for several fundamental reasons, one does not have to be one to recognize that world capitalism guarantees ever increasing inequity.

The extreme poor however cannot way until US or world capitalism is rejected and a new economic system is structured, or for the US and Europe to recognize its historically consistent and barbaric plundering of the world and justly indemnify. Christ proclaimed that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to the poor. So Catholics need not only evangelize, but also simultaneously promote a national and global examination of conscience and of structures, while continuing to organize to unconditionally provide life sustaining assistance where it is most needed, in conjunction with other Christians and ethical people where viable.

LEONARD --As Hamlet protested to Horatio: “There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt up in your philosophies”. It is convenient and even fashionable to lump all religions and all religious experience into one category, but not objectively true. If everything is equally true, than nothing is true.

Some will argue that ultimately religious experiences are all decipherable and fully explainable as cognitive structural dynamics and physiology yield their secrets and full significance or senselessness; or ultimately reducible to each other: 'suchness', 'satori', 'ínternalized tao´, losing one's identity in the 'merge with the absolute'... or even Reich's orgone. No doubt all paths lead somewhere, but where? No doubt the brain is a circuit, but what is the Significance?

Scientific researchers can now control the wills of pigeons and rats through remote control, and thus presumably eventually ours to an extent too. Yet, are all influences ultimately controllable by us?

Leonard, I have not attained anything as you claim. I reiterate that what I have been given is available fully to all who surrender their wills and destinies to the living God, through Jesus Christ, who has authority over all, can forgive all, can redeem all and promised to redeem many; and sent Peter on a unique mission. Living as the Sermon on the Mount proclaims then becomes truly and fully possible, not mere moral code.

Consider how B. Russell and A.N. Whitehead coauthored “Principia Mathematica” and then drifted into significantly different conclusions. Consider how Heidegger (supposedly a Catholic) and revered by many (still) as the greatest philosopher of the 20th century succumbed to the temptation of power and became the Nazi party's chief ideologue. Consider how and why Wittgenstein shut down.

Consider why Jesus said that John the Baptist was surely the greatest of men, yet the smallest in the Kingdom of Heaven was greater than him.

Philosophy is a method, not an end; only Christ is an end, 'the way, the truth and the life'...where, as Teilhard and Paul coincided 'all converges'...and 'no one reaches the Father except through him'.

If you are going to read philosophy or theology, be fair to yourself, and consider also studying Augustine, Aquinas, Teilhard, Lonergan or even (Anglican) Whitehead, and most importantly, and carefully, the gospels.

Thus you may be able to balance the field of influences to which you are subject, and hedge your bet, or better for you yet, change it altogether, for it is your existence that you are betting, young as you sound.

In any event, I hope you don't become stuck in one perhaps endlessly fruitless loop, and at least open your heart, as you may already be doing, to the poor and most vulnerable and oppressed. May you seek sincerely and intelligently as evidently you are doing, but with humility, awe in the face of mystery, and reverence. May Christ have mercy on your soul.

Victoria

Thank you for disclosing parts of your history. Our lives have been similar in some important ways. You are a person I should appreciate knowing.

You mention a prescription requiring men to lower their eyes and act in a modest manner (presumably in regarding a woman). But that prescription does not limit what men wear or their being immodest in other matters.

Below are quotes that show Islam's scriptural sex-repression, approval of slavery, and discriminatory treatment of women.

002.187

YUSUFALI: Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.

PICKTHAL: It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelation to mankind that they may ward off (evil).

SHAKIR: It is made lawful to you to go into your wives on the night of the fast; they are an apparel for you and you are an apparel for them; Allah knew that you acted unfaithfully to yourselves, so He has turned to you (mercifully) and removed from you (this burden); so now be in contact with them and seek what Allah has ordained for you, and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night, and have not contact with them while you keep to the mosques; these are the limits of Allah, so do not go near them. Thus does Allah make clear His communications for men that they may guard (against evil).

002.222

YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

PICKTHAL: They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

SHAKIR: And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

002.223

YUSUFALI: Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

PICKTHAL: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

SHAKIR: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

See also 23:6, 33:50, 33:52, 70:30 — concerning slavery and having sex with slaves.

Enrique impressed me much, because his faith condemns and then transcends all the dangerous and harmful tripe and repressive doctrines of the Roman Church. His faith is simple and innocent. Much it is a special peaceful feeling he attains through receiving the eucharist.

Perhaps your faith is like Enrique's, despite his partakes of Roman Catholicism. If so, you would be happier and utterly beyond even this iconoclast's questioning, if you stopped defending Islam (as a healthy mind does not defend itself) and simply felt your faith.