Faith and the Environment

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Yes, the environment protection should be a priority for every government and there should be also new laws to make people more active in the protection and conservation of our natural resources.
We at the Promotional items SuperStore created a program to help our customers get educated and more eco friendly when using our promotional items.

Yes, the environment should be a priority for people of faith. Why?
The earth is our home. All should be concerned about the health and preservation of our home. After all, where else would we live?
The truth is that while many people are concerned about the environment, many think nothing of throwing trash on the ground, dumping garbage in a river, or leaving lights turned on when they are not being used. Such acts may seem like small things, but if each of the billions of individuals on earth were careful about how he treated the earth, it could make a difference. Such things as being conservative in the use of energy, cooperating with recycling programs, and disposing of trash properly make a contribution toward preserving the environment. By our habits we can demonstrate our care for the earth now.
Still, we cannot control the actions of most people around us.
A comment by Thilo Bode of the Greenpeace organization, as quoted in Time magazine, touches on the core of the environmental problem: "Our principal aim has been that corporations should consider how their products are disposed of. They must think in terms of a trilogy: production, use and disposal." Sadly, we are able to make goods, we know how to use them, but we do not dispose of them properly. In some cases humans simply do not know how to do so safely.
Humans are limited, but the earth's Creator is not. He has already demonstrated his excelling wisdom in the creations we see on the earth. He knows how to make, to use, and to dispose of things properly. Many of the systems he has made are automatic. A seed germinates, and a plant grows and produces fruit. It then dies—with all of its elements breaking down in nonpolluting fashion, ready to be reused. This is recycling at its best! No toxic pollution!
The Creator does not intend to let the earth deteriorate into an uninhabitable trash dump. In the Bible, at Isaiah 45:18, it says, "This is what Jehovah has said, . . . He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited."
God formed the earth to be inhabited yet, now it is in this sad state. The Bible explains that man was originally put in a paradise. In fact, God purposed that this Paradise reach the ends of the earth and be filled with people. (Genesis 1:28) However, rebellion broke out. The first man and woman did not want to continue subject to God's rule.
God allowed humans to try their own way of ruling. The results are what we see today, a disastrous failure. Humans have clearly demonstrated that they cannot solve their problems. The blame for what has happened cannot be put on God. What the Bible says is true of all human society: "They have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!"—Deuteronomy 32:5.
God has not turned a blind eye to earth's ruination. He will act before it is too late, before the earth becomes an uninhabitable wasteland. (Revelation 11:18) "The nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time . . . to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." The ruining of the earth will be stopped.
God's original purpose for the earth, that it be a paradise, will still be fulfilled. "My word that goes forth from my mouth . . . will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted." (Isaiah 55:11) In Isaiah chapter 35, God describes the transformation of ruined lands into gardenlike parks and fruitful fields.
Even now, when pollution is stopped, the earth has shown a remarkable capacity to renew itself. God created it to do so. If the overloading of the earth with pollutants is discontinued, a wide variety of microorganisms in water and soil can heal much of the damage. Additionally, there is reason to believe that when God steps in and directs things, this rejuvenation process will be even more effective. He can provide the training and perfect direction that humans now lack.
The earth's future is not hopeless. Plants and animals will be saved. Endangered species lists will be gone. Our air and water will be fresh again. Obedient humans will be there to enjoy it. Whether someone is a person of faith or not, the way they treat the earth, the actions they take today, will determine whether they will have a part in God’s purpose for the earth- an earth wide paradise.

Is not a matter of faith or religion is about protecting our home...there is only one earth and if we destroy it what are we going to do them enviorement protection should be the priority in education, a priorty for a goverment and personal priority for all of us

Is not a matter of faith or religion is about protecting our home...there is only one earth and if we destroy it what are we going to do them enviorement protection should be the priority in education, a priorty for a goverment and personal priority for all of us

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TO ALL THE

Christians, Jews, Atheists and Non Believers of the WORLD, and who ever are visiting these blogs:

Below link and all its attached links will
GIVE YOU THE ANSWSERS OF ALL
the mysteries, confusions, disbelieves, doubts and misconceptions about GOD AND TELL YOU ABOUT THE TRUTH WITH EVIDENCE USING THE TECHNIQUE OF

- RATIONAL APPORACH
- SCIENTIFIC APPROACH
- LOGICAL APPROOACH
- FALSIFICATION TEST (FOR WESTRENERES)

http://www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm

IF YOU FOUND THE TRUTH, PASS IT ON AND THESE LINKS TO AS MANY YOU CAN!!!!

PEACE & ASLAM-U-ALAKUM!

THE WORST WAY OF CALLING NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR:

When Christians say that Jesus (A.S) was the only BEGOTTEN son and not MADE like Adam (A.S) or like all other creatures or creations?
What are you insinuating??? That God Almighty Him self came down to perform the lowest form of animal act like dog, donkey or monkey, i.e., sexual reproduction?
And on top of it Jesus (A.S) was His begotten son not legitimate!!!!!!!!!!
THAT IS THE WORST KIND OF ABUSE AND NAMING ANY BODY COULD HAVE DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GOD ALMIGHTY!!
Well down you so called CHRISTIAN believers??
You are getting your rewards in this world and will definitely get infinitely here after!!!!!!

YOUR BEST OF BEST ARE PREIST, BISHOP, CARDINAL AND POP AND NUNS RIGHT!

You say Nuns don't marry there whole life b/cause they are married to the Father. Alright!

My Question is Your Priest up to Pop, are they also married to the Father?????

Extremely Natural concept, behavior or shall I say believe!

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THE WORST WAY OF CALLING NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR:

When Christians say that Jesus (A.S) was the only BEGOTTEN and not MADE like Adam (A.S) or like all other creatures or creations?
What are you insinuating??? That God Almighty Him self came down to perform the lowest form of animal act like dog, donkey or monkey, i.e., sexual reproduction?
And on top of it Jesus (A.S) was His begotten son not legitimate!!!!!!!!!!
THAT IS THE WORST KIND OF ABUSE AND NAMING ANY BODY COULD HAVE DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GOD ALMIGHTY!!
Well down you so called CHRISTIAN believers??
You are getting your rewards in this world and will definitely get infinitely here after!!!!!!

YOUR BEST OF BEST ARE PREIST, BISHOP, CARDINAL AND POP AND NUNS RIGHT!

You say Nuns don't marry there whole life b/cause they are married to the Father. Alright!

My Question is Your Priest up to Pop, are they also married to the Father?????

Extremely Natural concept, behavior or shall I say believe!

TO ALL THE

Christians, Jews, Atheists and Non Believers of the WORLD, and who ever are visiting these blogs:

Below link and all its attached links will
GIVE YOU THE ANSWSERS OF ALL
the mysteries, confusions, disbelieves, doubts and misconceptions about GOD AND TELL YOU ABOUT THE TRUTH WITH EVIDENCE USING THE TECHNIQUE OF

- RATIONAL APPORACH
- SCIENTIFIC APPROACH
- LOGICAL APPROOACH
- FALSIFICATION TEST (FOR WESTRENERES)

http://www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm

IF YOU FOUND THE TRUTH, PASS IT ON AND THESE LINKS TO AS MANY YOU CAN!!!!

PEACE & ASLAM-U-ALAKUM!

1 MUHAMMAD

570-632

From the 100, a Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History

by Michael H. Hart

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels.

Of humble origins, Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive.

The majority of the persons in this book had the advantage of being born and raised in centers of civilization, highly cultured or politically pivotal nations. Muhammad, however, was born in the year 570, in the city of Mecca, in southern Arabia, at that time a backward area of the world, far from the centers of trade, art, and learning. Orphaned at age six, he was reared in modest surroundings. Islamic tradition tells us that he was illiterate. His economic position improved when, at age twenty-five, he married a wealthy widow. Nevertheless, as he approached forty, there was little outward indication that he was a remarkable person.

Most Arabs at that time were pagans, who believed in many gods. There were, however, in Mecca, a small number of Jews and Christians; it was from them no doubt that Muhammad first learned of a single, omnipotent God who ruled the entire universe. When he was forty years old, Muhammad became convinced that this one true God (Allah) was speaking to him, and had chosen him to spread the true faith.

For three years, Muhammad preached only to close friends and associates. Then, about 613, he began preaching in public. As he slowly gained converts, the Meccan authorities came to consider him a dangerous nuisance. In 622, fearing for his safety, Muhammad fled to Medina (a city some 200 miles north of Mecca), where he had been offered a position of considerable political power.

This flight, called the Hegira, was the turning point of the Prophet's life. In Mecca, he had had few followers. In Medina, he had many more, and he soon acquired an influence that made him a virtual dictator. During the next few years, while Muhammad s following grew rapidly, a series of battles were fought between Medina and Mecca. This was ended in 630 with Muhammad's triumphant return to Mecca as conqueror. The remaining two and one-half years of his life witnessed the rapid conversion of the Arab tribes to the new religion. When Muhammad died, in 632, he was the effective ruler of all of southern Arabia.

The Bedouin tribesmen of Arabia had a reputation as fierce warriors. But their number was small; and plagued by disunity and internecine warfare, they had been no match for the larger armies of the kingdoms in the settled agricultural areas to the north. However, unified by Muhammad for the first time in history, and inspired by their fervent belief in the one true God, these small Arab armies now embarked upon one of the most astonishing series of conquests in human history. To the northeast of Arabia lay the large Neo-Persian Empire of the Sassanids; to the northwest lay the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire, centered in Constantinople. Numerically, the Arabs were no match for their opponents. On the field of battle, though, the inspired Arabs rapidly conquered all of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine. By 642, Egypt had been wrested from the Byzantine Empire, while the Persian armies had been crushed at the key battles of Qadisiya in 637, and Nehavend in 642.

But even these enormous conquests-which were made under the leadership of Muhammad's close friends and immediate successors, Abu Bakr and 'Umar ibn al-Khattab -did not mark the end of the Arab advance. By 711, the Arab armies had swept completely across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean There they turned north and, crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, overwhelmed the Visigothic kingdom in Spain.

For a while, it must have seemed that the Moslems would overwhelm all of Christian Europe. However, in 732, at the famous Battle of Tours, a Moslem army, which had advanced into the center of France, was at last defeated by the Franks. Nevertheless, in a scant century of fighting, these Bedouin tribesmen, inspired by the word of the Prophet, had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the Atlantic Ocean-the largest empire that the world had yet seen. And everywhere that the armies conquered, large-scale conversion to the new faith eventually followed.

Now, not all of these conquests proved permanent. The Persians, though they have remained faithful to the religion of the Prophet, have since regained their independence from the Arabs. And in Spain, more than seven centuries of warfare 5 finally resulted in the Christians reconquering the entire peninsula. However, Mesopotamia and Egypt, the two cradles of ancient civilization, have remained Arab, as has the entire coast of North Africa. The new religion, of course, continued to spread, in the intervening centuries, far beyond the borders of the original Moslem conquests. Currently it has tens of millions of adherents in Africa and Central Asia and even more in Pakistan and northern India, and in Indonesia. In Indonesia, the new faith has been a unifying factor. In the Indian subcontinent, however, the conflict between Moslems and Hindus is still a major obstacle to unity.

How, then, is one to assess the overall impact of Muhammad on human history? Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book . Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Moslems in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.

Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran, a collection of certain of Muhammad's insights that he believed had been directly revealed to him by Allah. Most of these utterances were copied more or less faithfully during Muhammad's lifetime and were collected together in authoritative form not long after his death. The Koran therefore, closely represents Muhammad's ideas and teachings and to a considerable extent his exact words. No such detailed compilation of the teachings of Christ has survived. Since the Koran is at least as important to Moslems as the Bible is to Christians, the influence of Muhammed through the medium of the Koran has been enormous It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus.

Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time.

Of many important historical events, one might say that they were inevitable and would have occurred even without the particular political leader who guided them. For example, the South American colonies would probably have won their independence from Spain even if Simon Bolivar had never lived. But this cannot be said of the Arab conquests. Nothing similar had occurred before Muhammad, and there is no reason to believe that the conquests would have been achieved without him. The only comparable conquests in human history are those of the Mongols in the thirteenth century, which were primarily due to the influence of Genghis Khan. These conquests, however, though more extensive than those of the Arabs, did not prove permanent, and today the only areas occupied by the Mongols are those that they held prior to the time of Genghis Khan.

It is far different with the conquests of the Arabs. From Iraq to Morocco, there extends a whole chain of Arab nations united not merely by their faith in Islam, but also by their Arabic language, history, and culture. The centrality of the Koran in the Moslem religion and the fact that it is written in Arabic have probably prevented the Arab language from breaking up into mutually unintelligible dialects, which might otherwise have occurred in the intervening thirteen centuries. Differences and divisions between these Arab states exist, of course, and they are considerable, but the partial disunity should not blind us to the important elements of unity that have continued to exist. For instance, neither Iran nor Indonesia, both oil-producing states and both Islamic in religion, joined in the oil embargo of the winter of 1973-74. It is no coincidence that all of the Arab states, and only the Arab states, participated in the embargo.

We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

TO READ THE NON-MUSLIM VERDICT ON MUHAMMED (PBUH). CLICK HERE

TO READ MICHAEL H. HART'S CHAPTER ON JESUS CHRIST (PBUH). CLICK HERE

BACK TO THE DEEDAT PAGE

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WITH ADDITION AND CORRECTION:

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years.

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Not now but in couple of days I will quote all the verses I'm referring below. I only remember few so I'll quote later.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Ostrich egg shaped earth (which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.

AND MANY MORE............

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years.

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 sings are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Not now but in couple of days I will quote all the verses I'm referring below. I only remember few so I'll quote later.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory.
2- Ostrich egg shaped earth (which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred as smoke)
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
8- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
9- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
10- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.

AND MANY MORE............

What is holy about below mentioned Bible verses?
Is it really a holy book?

I always wondered why every passing day west is going shamelessly promiscuous, vulgar, obscene, abhorrent to morality or virtue and repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles. OTHER THEN RUTHLESSLY VIOLENT AND BARBARIC TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND RACES!!

-Why kids are molested in there dark churches and convents by there priests. TURNED INTO MILLIONS OF GAYS OR ETHEIST, I GUESS BETTER CHOICE FOR THEM!
- Why children are molested by there parents (mostly adopted not blood related) in your society?
- Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
-Why teenage girl’s pregnancy is out of control in your society?
-Why kids are not properly raised by there parents and why old parents are not been taken care by there kids in your society?
-Why your society is so violent and crime rate is so high in its civic fabric?

First I was shocked, immediately after reading bible realizing that, my eyes get wet, and I prayed and thanked God and asked for his mercy and forgiveness, that he saved me from the curse of twisted lies…….AS ALL THE ACTUAL VIRTUOUS VERSIONS, ALL THAT WE MUSLIMS KNOW ARE MOSTLY NOT AWARE OF THE WAY…VULGORLY THOSE HISTORY STORIES ARE TWISTED IN THE BIBLE.

I read your bible and came to realize what kind of twisted volgur atributes you have attached to your prophets and your God. YOU HAVEN’T LEFT ANYONE, FATHER TO DAUGHER, SON TO MOTHER, GOD TO SARAH, THERE BASTERED OFF SPRINGS.

HAVE YOU LEFT ANYBODY THERE?????

AND THAT IS THE CURSE IN REALITY WHICH IS REFLECTING UPON YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!

VERY FEW EXAMPLES OUT OF THE BIBLE……..

PROPHET LOT AND HIS DAUGHTERS (YOUR BIBLE TELLS SLEEPING TOGATHER AND HAVING CHILDREN)

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Lets get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father

PROPHETS SON SLEEPING WITH HER MOTHER YOUR BIBLE TELLS-GENESIS 35

21 Israel moved on again and pitched his tent beyond Migdal Eder. 22 While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:

PROPHET ABRAHAM MARRIED HER REAL SISTER ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

THE BIRTH OF ISAAC (LORD DID FOR SARAH, WHAT HAD PROMISED) ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE IT WAS NOT ABRAHAM
Genesis 21 (New International Version)

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.

Now I clearly understand that why our Quran tells that Bible or any other divine book is not in its original form and are all tainted by the evil doers. And that why we do not believe or follow them, though we do believe in all divine books including bible revealed in their original form but do not exist. AND WE ALSO BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST AND OUR QURAN REJECTS ALL KIND OF VOLGARITIES ATTRIBUTED TO THEM OR TO GOD. AND EXPLAINS AND TELL STORIES ABOUT HOW VIRTUOUS THEY WERE IN REALITY!!!!!

Deb & Dave,

Since you forget history and prefer not to discuss your religion (???) let me enlighten you:

- When Prophet (PBUH) finally entered Mecca with his army, not a single person was killed. And he gave amnesty to every one INCLUDING HIS WORST ENEMIES, people who for 13 years keep on killing his family, his disciples, newly reverted Muslims, tried to kill him so many time, who tortured and butchered Muslims through out his life, with the trail of all previous wars raged by them upon Muslims.

- In 13-14 century, Christian crusaders took Jerusalem by force and ruled over it with IRON FIST for 100 years, not allowing Muslims to practice there religion and extreme oppression. But when Sultan Salahudin Ayubi took it back, he gave unconditional pardon to all the Christians and Jews, following his Prophets (PBUH) foot steps. And since then all religions were practiced there with out any oppression until ISRAEL came into being.

-Israelis (Jews) forgot that when the European Crusaders thrown them out of ALL Europe. The only place they got amnesty, peace and lived freely for more than 800 years in Spain with Muslims under there rule. Finally, after that they were thrown out once again into Palestine.

-And you Hindus forgot that you are ruled by your own race converted Muslims for more than 1000 years. And as per your Indian records, audio / visual documentaries and movies, which until now tells and applaud about the justice of Muslim rules and rulers. IF we would have to convert you Hindus by sword, there was no Hindu left after 1000 year of Muslim rule. Look around the comparative world history of Crusaders, colonists and other nations, filled with forceful conversions and slavery, about which Christian Pop publicly apologized about 4 years back.

- I don't want to go into details why Indian Muslims ruled instead of Hindus there. All the reason hidden deep with in your religious discrimination to the very extend of killing each other, burning women alive, as per sacred religion still eating cow dung and pee and so many other ridiculous hate mongering practices...so and so...even today India is the only country where women are less in number, every day more than 3000 female fetuses are aborted there. And continuous genocides of different religious races including there own are still going on under Hindu rule.

Note: Muslims in reality never wanted to divide India. You can read my post in this regard in “Islam and Violence" dated Nov 04, 2007 with the topics.
- India / Pakistan History before Partition
- Pakistan history Politics after Partition.

And why Muslims killing Muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between Sunni and Shia Iraqi's, further more any kind of security forces killing and public bomb blasts on such every day mass scale level. It is USA who plotted TWIN TOWERS and by every means fueling the Muslim riots among the Muslims AND KEEPING THE FUEL!!!!!! EXACTLY THE WAY COLONIST DID IN THERE 300 YEAR ERA. IT IS NOT SOME THING NEW……..BLOODY DIVID AND RULE CRUELITY WITH RUTHLESNESS.
AND SAME IS THE BRITISH AND FRENCH LAST 300 YEAR COLONIAL HISTORY ON THE MUSLIM LANDS. WHERE ONLY MUSLIMS WERE CRUSHED AND OPPRESSED BARBARICLY. IT IS ALL VERY OPEN ON RECORD AVAILABLE EVERY WHERE. ALL YOU NEED TO JUST SEARCH GOOGLE.

And though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But after almost 60 years long BARBARISM OF ISRAEL AND SILENCE OF HYPOCRATE WEST, the hopeless tormented Muslims (now in many different regions starting from Palestine) are committing that forbidden sin, giving up hope in extreme frustration from there present state of destroyed life by every means. THANKS TO THE BEASTS BECOME MONSTORS………..

Wake up Deb & Dave from your ignorance
And CCNL get treatment for your Insanity!!

Why Muslims killing Muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between Sunni and Shia Iraqi's, further more any kind of security forces killing and public bomb blasts on such every day mass scale level, AND THERE CIVIL FABRIC WAS INTACT.. It is USA who plotted TWIN TOWERS and by ALL means fueling the Muslim riots among the Muslims AND KEEPING THE FUEL!!!!!!

Exactly the way colonist did in there 300 year era. IT IS NOT SOME THING NEW……..BLOODY DIVID AND RULE CRUELITY WITH RUTHLESNESS.

And same is the British and French last 300 year colonial history on the Muslim lands. Where only Muslims were crushed and oppressed barbarically. It is all very open on record available every where. All you need to just search Google.

And though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But after almost 60 years long BARBARISM OF ISRAEL AND SILENCE OF HYPOCRATE WEST, the hopeless tormented Muslims (now in many different regions starting from Palestine) are committing that forbidden sin, giving up hope in extreme frustration from there present state of destroyed life by every means. THANKS TO THE BEASTS BECOME MONSTORS………..

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I believe this is an important discussion thread. For the past decade, I have been involved in an Internet discussion on Judaism and the Environment, sponsored by the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life, which is affiliated with the National Religious Partnership for the Environment. I am aware of many people of faith who are very active with sustainability and habitat issues, including Evangelical Christians.

It would appear that some faiths include more focus than others on our environment in their sacred teachings. Native peoples around the world, for whom nature is a manifestation of divine spirit, for example, present deep connection with our natural world. And yet there are tremendous pressures to exploit our natural resources rather than preserve them. Buddhism and Judaism each have very strong teachings about honoring creation and protecting our environment.

If we are people of faith, but protecting our planet is not a priority, then we may be clinging to our religion as an ends, rather than using religious teachings as a means to a grander, spiritual life in a sustainable future, co-creating the earth in partnership with G-d.

Sometimes we seem to get carried away with destruction in our religions, and open the door to depression and negativity. There is much to be gained from mystical experience, as Brother Wayne Teasdale wrote about in "A Monk In The World." Through these often suppressed elements in all religious traditions, we can experience hope, courage and compassion that can make a difference in our lives and in the future of our planet.

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This is a question of survival, for the earth,and its inhabitants. Religion has nothing to contribute to this dialogue, science is monitoring the ravages, of civilization. The civilized must act, demand a change.

James - It might help to keep in mind the question - "Should care for the environment be a major priority for people of faith? Why or why not?" Why would it be inappropriate for people of faith to answer this question using anything less than faith-based arguements? If I am a Christian, I am going to make a Chirstian agument for why we should care for the environment. If I am a Muslim, then I'll use a Muslim argument. the same for Hindu, etc. I see know reason why people of faith should only be allowed to make secular (what you call "logical") arguments. Your insinuation that one can not reason logically within a faith tradition is a bit smug. Why should the secular worldview be held up as the standard by which reason and logic are measured?

As to your second point, I agree with you. Though I believe that Jesus will return to judge the earth, those who abandon doing good becuase they feel they will not "have to endure the consequences" are misled.

James - It might help to keep in mind the question - "Should care for the environment be a major priority for people of faith? Why or why not?" Why would it be inappropriate for people of faith to answer this question using anything less than faith-based arguements? If I am a Christian, I am going to make a Chirstian agument for why we should care for the environment. If I am a Muslim, then I'll use a Muslim argument. the same for Hindu, etc. I see know reason why people of faith should only be allowed to make secular (what you call "logical") arguments. Your insinuation that one can not reason logically within a faith tradition is a bit smug. Why should the secular worldview be held up as the standard by which reason and logic are measured?

As to your second point, I agree with you. Though I believe that Jesus will return to judge the earth, those who abandon doing good becuase they feel they will not "have to endure the consequences" are misled.

I see far too much argument based on faith. Keep in mind, ye faithful, that a faith-based argument will only favorably impact those who already agree with you. I propose argument based on logic.

Supposing that these are the end times, the virtuous will be raised to heaven and their brothers will remain here to endure, or something along those lines. Some feel they don't need to raise a hand to preserve the environment on the grounds that they and their families will not have to endure the consequences.

This is a form of abandonment, or betrayal. Dante's Inferno has these people frozen at the core of hell. I'm not nearly so bleak, but, is heaven a place for those who are unwilling to make even those small sacrifices that could make life better for everyone?

Soja John Thaikattil wrote:
---Religion is not a pious sentiment. It must translate itself into action. The Bible makes it clear that we are stewards of the earth.---

Well, yes, depending on which part of the bible you read. Gen. 1 says we are put here to subdue the earth while Gen 2 says we need to take care of it and "tend" it. There are other inconsistencies as well. So, do you just take what you want to believe and ignore the other parts or do you actually try to resolve the inconsistencies?

---So we have no choice but to do our duty, and take care of the environment. "Faith without works is dead."---

That quote is about Abraham who God ordered to sacrifice his son, Issac. The "work" was the killing of Issac to show that trust in God is absolute. The lesson is that without Abraham doing the deed, belief is worthless. Now, Gen. 1 says man is to subdue the earth. Many have taken that and put it into action, subduing the earth, extracting its resources and polluting its environment as a result. The question is whether God considers this good or not. The bible is so ambiguous that either can be claimed, that it is good and bad. By quoting one verse to support your claim you do what all people of the book do, take a stand and THEN use the bible to justify it. Go read what Cal Thomas wrote on this subject and you'll see he takes the opposite view with his own verses to back up his view.

---The Bible says that anyone who claims he loves God, but hates his brother, is a liar, for we cannot claim to love the God we have not seen, if we cannot love the brother we do see. Taking care of the earth is part of loving not only ourselves but our brothers both living and those who will come after us.---

Again you take a verse of the bible and twist it into something completely different to justify what you want. No wonder so many people thump the bible because no matter what you believe, justification for it can be found in the bible with a little imagination. Just for the record, I think man can have all of his technology and keep a clean environment, but I do not need to consult the bible to justify what to me is obvious. All you need to do is look at the cancer occurance maps to see we are killing people with pollution:

http://srab.cancer.gov/documents/incidence/PCIMono_statemaps.pdf

Tov; I think most of those comments are about how we respond to the problem; do we rely on magical religious thinking, or science to clean up the mess we've made? Will prayer or better technology and rational management make the difference?

Fact is American religious leaders (the ones who get the press, anyway) have been either silent on the issue or hostile to the environmental movement, so there is understandably a lot of skepticism about their place in finding a solution.

Personally I would welcome a movement in the religious community toward more responsible practices. Those who feel a responsibility to the Earth need to be more assertive within their own communities of faith. Some of them have been trying to make the argument for ecological stewardship for a long time, but when I was still going to Church they were pretty marginalized.

Regards

A Hermit

Religion is not a pious sentiment. It must translate itself into action. The Bible makes it clear that we are stewards of the earth. So we have no choice but to do our duty, and take care of the environment. "Faith without works is dead." The Bible says that anyone who claims he loves God, but hates his brother, is a liar, for we cannot claim to love the God we have not seen, if we cannot love the brother we do see. Taking care of the earth is part of loving not only ourselves but our brothers both living and those who will come after us.

Sorry - I was responding to comments like this. Obviously all things stemming from a biblical worldvieww are evil while science has brought about an enlightened era where we can communicate to each other on these machines.

Phaedrus :
The source of the problem:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis: 1:28.

February 7, 2007 5:51 PM

Realist :
I don't claim to know much about Islam, but Christianity certainly provides no reason to be responsible about the environment. If there is an omniscient and omnipotent God who's looking after us, then why bother? Jesus is coming back soon, right? And he will fix everything right?

This is just one of many reasons why I think religion is dangerous.

February 14, 2007 7:18 AM

Pietro Zamboni :
Considering the hostility religion has displayed towards science throughout recorded history, I hope religion stays out of the fray.

And I wonder about the judgment of people who base their moral code and much of their thinking process on myth and superstition, i.e., the real names for religion. Should we trust these credulous people to make judgments about policy?

I don't think so.

Beware religious people talking about science, because history shows they have a great capacity to lie. For example, today fundamentalist groups in America lie about the health effect of abortion, of using contraception, etc.

I will say this. If an environmental catastrophe occurs, killing 90% of the population, religious people will be running around saying, "Praise the Lord, how merciful he is that we (the 10% left) have been saved."

February 13, 2007 11:19 PM

I think you've created a straw man of your own here TOV:

"Why do the secular humanists get credit for the scientific advances and the Christians get blamed for the pollution?"

Now where did you see anyone make that argument? I must have missed it...

I find a lot of these arguements absurd.
One cannot argue both this:
The eighteenth and ninteenth centuries were characterized by scientific secular humanism and thereby witnessed the greatest industrial revolution known in history, a golden age that allows us to live in the comfort and health that we now enjoy.
And this:
The environmental problems we all face stem back to the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries when a Christian dominionist worldview that commanded its unwittinging adherents to destroy the earth.

Why do the secular humanists get credit for the scientific advances and the Christians get blamed for the pollution? This is ridiculous.

i have never heard a Christian teach that Genesis 1:26 teaches us to rape the earth. I have always ALWAYS heard it as saying humanity needs to care for and tend the earth LIKE A GARDNER TENDS A GARDEN (read the context). The only time I have ever heard anyone interpret that verse in a "dominionist" way is when an athiest or non-Christian is blaming environmental problems on Christianity.

Why does secular humanism get off scott free in this debate? We could examine that worldview and create a strawman of many beliefs that are more damaging to the planet than Christianity, such as:
1) I am not responsible to give an account of my life to anyone after death, therefore I am free to follow my own conscience and it alone.
2) After I die, my soul ceases to exist, therefore I really don't need to care about what happens to the planet for more than the next couple of decades.
3) Life is about gathering material possessions and living comfortably. This life is all I have, I may as well enjoy it.

Like I said - these are STRAW-MEN arguements - but so is the arguements used to bash the Bibles appraoch to environmental issues.

Let's try to hear each other and not just yell at each other.
Dan <><

Nafi Saghem wrote:
'I was being sarcastic with Concerned etc.'

'Sorry if you took it literally about me answerable "only to God". I still have to answer to and be responsible for my speeding tickets etc and to answer to my bosses on work and such other human responsibilities in life, work, community and nation.'

Sorry, I only noticed that one post and didn't realize you weren't being serious.

You also wrote:
"As for the state of the environment, we are still responsible for it and answerable to current and future generations."

Yes.

I don't claim to know much about Islam, but Christianity certainly provides no reason to be responsible about the environment. If there is an omniscient and omnipotent God who's looking after us, then why bother? Jesus is coming back soon, right? And he will fix everything right?

This is just one of many reasons why I think religion is dangerous.

Jihadist (aka Crusader),

You noted:
"Let us remember with respect those who lost their lives in the disasters. Let us be mindful of their families and friends who lost their loved ones, whether they believe in God or not."

You should have added:

And let us remember with respect those who lost their lives today due to the militant teachings of the Koran!!!!!!--

To all free thinkers not brainwashed by the liberal left yet read this. Notice the comment about JD Crossman......

INTRODUCTION
The Synoptic Problem is defined as the literary scenario that persists as a result of the many similarities that exist between the three Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Common dependence on oral traditions (including Aramaic ones) may account for some of the phenomena, but there are such close parallels in the Greek that a direct literary connection is generally accepted. Yet to take this as fact is to not do service to men who have, most recently, stood up to state their never was a Q and it is time to dispense with the accompanying theories.
Holtzman has been credited in the Nineteenth Century for putting forth the Two Source Theory as an answer to the Synoptic Problem. Other well known scholars such as Kloppenborg, Tuckett, Mack, and Horsley have gone so far as to try and reconstruct this mysterious and missing document known as Q. Yet the question must be asked, “Standing here at the beginning of the Twenty-First Century and looking back over history, how did we get from the grapha of the First Century Gospel writers to what we now claim is the theory of the missing Gospel?”
The discussion of the discovery of knowledge can be obtained through a posteriori, that which comes from personal experience, and a priori, or as some philosophers refer to as being innate and can be discovered by simply thinking about them. This paper will focus on the role of a priori on the discussion of the generation and production of the two source theory. This paper will review the path taken and show how it has its origin in the period known as the “Enlightment”, that period in our country that saw the rise of rationalism, and that its main tool is the philosophical technique of reasoning known as a priori.
THE SYNOPTIC PROBLEM
The first three gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the synoptic gospels. J.J. Griesbach first used the term synoptic in his Synopse published in 1774. The format used was to print the three gospels side by side that the reader might be able to recognize the agreement and disagreement between the three gospels. As a result of this format four conclusions were noticed: (1) almost all of the verses in Mark appear in Matthew and/or Luke, of the 661 verses found in Mark over 600 appear in Matthew and over 300 appear in Luke, (2) a close comparison reveal a similarity in vocabulary, word order, and sentence structure, (3) the pericopae sequence is very similar in all three gospels, and (4) 235 verses are found to be common to Matthew and Luke. The question of the mechanics of just how this similarity came about has concerned scholars for many years. A method for explaining this literary phenomenon has been a central issue and remains an important question to this day. This constitutes the synoptic problem.
The interrelationship between Matthew, Mark, and Luke is, perhaps, the most complicated and perplexing critical problem in the history of literature. The problem derives great importance from its close connection with the life of Christ, and has therefore tried to the utmost the learning, acumen, and ingenuity of modern scholars for nearly a century. The range of hypotheses has been almost exhausted, and yet no harmonious conclusion reached.
BASIS FOR TWO SOURCE DOCUMENT
The reality that Q was a written text, which Lührmann had assumed and Kloppenborg has demonstrated, is not merely an accident but the first datum to be reckoned with. Whether you are referring to Kloppenborg, Bultman or Wellhausen, this is the first and main point of the Q document theories. Whether the form is Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek is up for debate but the premise that a document called Q (from the German Quelle) existed in written form is premise number one. Keep in mind there are no originals of Q, there are no copies of Q, and there are no fragments of Q. In addition, even in the fragments of Papias there is only one mention of a list of sayings in Hebrew that Matthew might have had, and that is discounted by many scholars. Streeter further places his support beside the others mentioned, “As thus reconstructed, Q is a document the purpose and character of which are perfectly intelligible.” Kloppenborg lends his voice to the choir of many singing praises to the Q theory, “The available evidence indeed is such as to sustain only this conclusion; the principal alternative, namely an oral Q, collapses in the face of four considerations: the presence of strong verbal agreements of Matthew and Luke, the use of peculiar or unusual phrases by both evangelists, agreement in the order of Q pericopae and the phenomenon of doublets.”
The second accepted premise is that of Mark priority. Schaff states it plainly, “And as to Mark, his apparent abridgments, far from being the work of a copyist, are simply rapid statements of an original writer, with many fresh and lively details which abundantly prove his independence.” It is accepted that since Mark’s gospel is the shortest, is of the poorest Greek, and does not expand on some parts of Jesus’ life that Mark wrote his gospel first. Walvoord speaks further on the subject of Markus priority, “A popular view today is that the biblical editors made use of various written sources to compile their accounts. This viewpoint usually posits the following: (1) the first written account was the Gospel of Mark. A major reason for this position is that only 7 percent of the Gospel of Mark is unique, as 93 percent of Mark can be found in Matthew and Luke.”
HISTORY OF Q RESEARCH
If Q ever existed, it must have disappeared very early, since no copies of it have been recovered and no definitive notices of it have been recorded in antiquity.
An important point in the research, yet not pointed out by many, is the publication of Synopsis, by Johann Jakob Griesbach in 1776. This publication did not necessary contribute to the research on the two source theory but did bring attention to bear on the Synoptic Problem.
In modern times, the first person to hypothesize a Q-like source was an Englishman, Herbert Marsh, in 1801 in a complicated solution to the synoptic problem that his contemporaries ignored. Marsh labeled this source with the Hebrew letter beth. Marsh being a bishop in the Church of England, this brought a significant amount of condemnation from the conservatives at that time.
The next person to advance the Q hypothesis was the German Schleiermacher in 1832, who interpreted an enigmatic statement by the early Christian writer Papias of Hierapolis, circa 125: "Matthew compiled the oracles (Greek: logia) of the Lord in a Hebrew manner of speech." Rather than the traditional interpretation that Papias was referring to the writing of Matthew in Hebrew, Schleiermacher believed that Papias was actually giving witness to a sayings collection that was available to the Evangelists.
In 1838 another German, Christian Hermann Weisse took Schleiermacher's suggestion of a sayings source and combined it with the idea of Markan priority to formulate what is now called the Two-Source Hypothesis, in which both Matthew and Luke used Mark and the sayings source. Heinrich Julius Holtzmann endorsed this approach in an influential treatment of the synoptic problem in 1863, and the Two-Source Hypothesis has maintained its dominance ever since.
At this time, Q was usually called the Logia on account of the Papias statement, and Holtzmann gave it the symbol Lambda (Λ). Toward the end of the 19th century, however, doubts began to grow on the propriety of anchoring the existence of the collection of sayings in the testimony of Papias, so a neutral symbol Q (which was devised by Johannes Weiss based on the German Quelle, meaning source) was adopted to remain neutrally independent of the collection of sayings and its connection to Papias.
In the first two decades of the 20th century, more than a dozen reconstructions of Q were made. However, these reconstructions differed so much from each other that not a single verse of Matthew was present in all of them. As a result, interest in Q subsided and it was neglected for many decades.
This state of affairs changed in the 1960s after translations of a newly discovered and analogous sayings collection, the Gospel of Thomas, became available. The discovery at Nag Hammadi in 1945 was clearly a turning point in the ability to examine the lost Gospel of Thomas and the contribution it made to those who side with the a priori rationalization for the existence of the Q document. James M. Robinson and Helmut Koester proposed that collections of sayings such as Q and Thomas represented the earliest Christian materials at an early point in a trajectory that eventually resulted in the canonical gospels.
This burst of interest led to increasingly more sophisticated literary and redactional reconstructions of Q, notably the work of John S. Kloppenborg. Kloppenborg, by analyzing certain literary phenomena, argued that Q was composed in three stages. The earliest stage was a collection of wisdom sayings involving such issues as poverty and discipleship. Then this collection was expanded by including a layer of judgmental sayings directed against "this generation." The final stage included the Temptation of Jesus. Some scholars have pointed out this stand borders as an excessive use of a priorism.
Although Kloppenborg cautioned against assuming that the composition history of Q is the same as the history of the Jesus tradition (i.e. that the oldest layer of Q is necessarily the oldest and pure-layer Jesus tradition), some recent seekers of the Historical Jesus, including the members of the Jesus Seminar, have done just that. Basing their reconstructions primarily on the Gospel of Thomas and the oldest layer of Q, they propose that Jesus functioned as a wisdom sage more analogous to a Greek Cynic philosopher than to a Jewish rabbi.
In more recent history a critical edition of Q was the product of the International Q Project. The main scholars involved in this project included Kloppenborg, Robinson, Hoffman, and Moreland. This has commenced a new era of research not so much into the existence or content of Q but rather using the critical edition of Q as a tool for learning more about just who Jesus was within a first century context. This could be a dangerous off shoot of Q research as there are many serious weaknesses that still persist in the two source theory and the existence and/or content of Q. This point will be covered later in this paper. Yet, one fact must be remembered, “Faith is no excuse for ignorance. Adherence to any tradition in disregard for textual evidence is sheer superstition.”
THE RISE OF RATIONALISM
The Reformation which is considered to of started on October 31, 1517 with the posting of the 95 theses by Martin Luther began a tension that culminated in the Thirty Years War. This war was fought between 1618 and 1648 ending with the signing of the Treaty of Westphalia on January 30, 1648. This ushered in a time some historians refer to as Modern History. This brought to an end a bloody war between Protestants and Catholics. It also ushered in a time when people in Europe, and eventually in America, wanted to throw off the constraints and shackles of the Church and the traditionalism the Church had instituted.
The period known as the “Enlightment” followed closely this sentiment to throw off the restraints of the Roman Catholic Church. Some historians point to the beginning of this period as the Glorious Revolution of 1688, the overthrow of the Catholic king of England James II. This period saw many writers who sought to influence a period in history that called on all people groups to reexamine any and all beliefs. This period is co-extensive with the eighteenth century and included writings by Locke and Bayle, and endings with the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the French Revolution of 1789, or the defeat of postrevoltuionary France.
Even though some historians view the “Enlightment” as a European movement its effects were felt all over the world. It was during this time that the writers of the American Revolution penned many of their great essays and books. This period ushered in a time known as the “Age of Reason.” It is from here we see the rise of a form of philosophical thought known as rationalism.
In philosophy and in its broadest sense, rationalism is “any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification.” In more technical terms it is a method or theory in which the criterion of truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive. Within the Western philosophical tradition, "rationalism begins with the Eleatics, Pythagoreans, and Plato, whose theory of the self-sufficiency of reason became the leitmotif of Neoplatonism and idealism”. Since the Enlightenment, rationalism is usually associated with the introduction of mathematical methods into philosophy, as in Descartes, Leibniz, and Spinoza. This is commonly called continental rationalism, because it was predominant in the continental schools of Europe, whereas in Britain empiricism dominated.
Rationalism is often contrasted with this view known as empiricism. Taken very broadly these views are not mutually exclusive, since a philosopher can be both rationalist and empiricist. Taken to extremes the empiricist view holds that all ideas come to us through experience, either through the five external senses or through such inner sensations as pain and pleasure, and thus that knowledge is essentially based on or derived from experience. At issue is the fundamental source of human knowledge, and the proper techniques for verifying what we think we know.
Proponents of some varieties of rationalism argue that, starting with foundational basic principles, like the axioms of geometry, one could deductively derive the rest of all possible knowledge. The philosophers who held this view most clearly were Baruch Spinoza and Gottfried Leibniz, whose attempts to grapple with the epistemological and metaphysical problems raised by Descartes led to a development of the fundamental approach of rationalism. Both Spinoza and Leibniz asserted that, in principle, all knowledge, including scientific knowledge, could be gained through the use of reason alone, though they both observed that this was not possible in practice for human beings except in specific areas such as mathematics. On the other hand, Leibniz admitted that "we are all mere Empirics in three fourths of our actions"
It is from this method of rationalism that many of the tenets of the Q document are based. Remembering there has been to date no originals of Q, no copies of Q, and no fragments of Q ever found. In addition, many of the scholars that were involved in the early years of this research came out of the “Enlightment” movement in Germany; they would include but not be limited to Griesbach in 1776, Schleiermacher in 1832, and Weisse in 1838. It comes as no surprise that the many scholars who have championed this view use deductive rationalistic reasoning to establish their views. In addition, the idea of rationalistic versus empiricist reasoning is congruent with a posteriori versus a priori reasoning. It must be stated something can be logically correct and not be realistically correct. The remainder of this paper will review the strengths and weaknesses of the Two Source theory and the existence and reconstruction of the Critical Text of Q in light of Rationalism and the use of a priori methodology.
STRENGTHS OF THE TWO SOURCE THEORY
The first strength of the Two Source theory is the literary commonalities found between the three synoptic gospels. The basis of Harnack’s, The Sayings of Jesus, is the commonalities between Matthew and Luke. It was just this premise that propelled Harnack (1908) to write a detailed review of the common points. In addition, it was Wellhausen’s (1905), Introduction to the Three Gospels, which preceded Harnack and encouraged him to publish his work. As has been pointed out before there are over 600 verses from The Gospel of Mark that appears in The Gospel of Matthew and over 300 that appear in The Gospel of Luke. Finally, some 235 verses appear in both Matthew and Luke. It is further postulated that probability excludes this degree of commonality without the use of an outside source being used by Matthew, Luke, and maybe even Mark.
Second, one of the supports the Q proponents use is to refer to a single statement made by Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis. In the first half of the second century, Papias, an obscure bishop of Hierapolis, wrote a five volume treatise called An Exposition of the Lord's Oracles, although this work is now lost, isolated fragments have been preserved in quotations and references by Irenaeus (c. 185), Eusebius (c. 300), and others. From these fragments we see the statement that scholars use to deduct that some type of document outside of the gospels existed. Papias states, “Now this is reported by Papias not about Mark, but about Matthew this was said, Now Matthew compiled the reports in a Hebrew manner of speech, but each interpreted them as he could.” The omission of any mention of Mark lends scholars of the Q camp to postulate that if this document existed then it would be logical to assume other documents existed after the time Mark wrote his gospel. Also, some scholars believe this document Papias was referring to, logia , was actually the document in question.
Crossan, one of the more famous members of the Q camp, further states that many lists existed during the first centuries and it is not a far stretch to imagine a list of Jesus’ sayings could have existed. In addition, Streeter, who held that (1) ‘Q’ was a document (not merely a group of oral traditions) written in Greek; (2) almost the whole of its content was used by either Matthew or Luke or both; and (3) that the order of the contents in Luke is nearer to the original than in Matthew. A further support of the list theory is that postulated by Kloppenborg and the listings found within the Gospel of Thomas.
The third strength of the Two Source theory is that of a close comparison reveal a similarity in vocabulary, word order, and sentence structure. In numerous places there are many verses that not only speak of the same event but also use the same words and phrases. One example is the story of Jesus healing the centurion’s son. The two passages are found in Matthew 8 and Luke 7. Both have similar structure and both end with Jesus making the same statement about how no where in Israel has he found faith equal to that of the centurion.
Finally, strength of the Two Source theory is that of corresponding or matching pericopae. Pericopae are the stories of the New Testament such as The Temptations of Christ, the baptism of Jesus, and the parables to name a few. Some of the scholars that have lent their name to this strength are: Beare (1962); Bussman (1929); Crossman (1983); Hawkins (1911); Hoffman (1975); Kloppenborg (1987); Streeter (1924); and Weiss (1907). It is from these strengths that a Critical Version of Q was assembled by The International Q Project, and their view is, “The text of Q need no longer be just an imaginary black box lurking somewhere behind Matthean and Lukan verses as their source, but can emerge as a text in its own right.”
WEAKNESSES OF THE TWO SOURCE THEORY
Among those who suggest solutions to the synoptic problem that are based upon Markan priority and the non-existence of Q Farrer’s position is the most common, being advocated by scholars such as Goulder, Drury, Franklin, Goodacre and Shellard. Therefore, despite the position of the Q camp of the existence of Q has been proved and research should move on, there are many prominent scholars that beg to disagree.
First, current literature on Q abounds with editions of Q, investigations into its strata, studies of the communities that were behind it and analyses of their theology. In such circumstances, it is worth allowing ourselves the sober reminder that there is no manuscript of Q in existence. No-one has yet found even a fragment of Q.
Second, No ancient author appears to have been aware of the existence of Q. One will search in vain for a single reference to it in ancient literature. For a while it was thought that 'the logia' to which Papias referred might be Q. Goodacre points out, “Indeed, this was one of the planks on which the Q hypothesis rested in the nineteenth century. But no reputable scholar now believes this.”
Third, the Q hypothesis is weak in the phenomenon of fatigue. If a writer is copying from another document in the beginning certain changes are made which later in the process the author will lapse into their own method. In Matthew, we see he correctly calls Herod tetrarch only to lapse later on and incorrectly call him king. In Mark we see this is the title that he used through out his gospel. Next, in Luke when he is ling of the story of the feeding of the five thousand he first refers to the area of being near Bethsaida only to lapse into the phrase, “We are here in a desert place”, which is used by Mark.
Fourth, is the point of trying to answer a twenty-first century question with a nineteenth century answer? Q belongs to another age, an age in which scholars solved every problem by postulating another written source. The evangelists were thought of as 'scissors and paste' men, compilers and not composers, who edited together pieces from several documents. Classically, the bookish B. H. Streeter solved the synoptic problem by assigning a written source to each type of material - triple tradition was from Mark; double tradition was from 'Q'; special Matthew was from 'M' and special Luke was from 'L'. Most scholars have since dispensed with written 'M' and 'L' sources. The time has now come to get up-to-date, and to dispense with Q too.
Finally, is the question of Luke’s literary abilities? Belief in Q has been an impediment to the proper appreciation of Luke's literary ability, for Luke's order has traditionally been explained on the assumption that he was conservatively following a Q text. But it is not at all inconceivable that Luke should have imaginatively and creatively re-ordered material from Matthew. Here is a man that went to great lengths to research and collects all needed data prior to the writing of his gospel. It would seem both inappropriate and unfitting of his extensive vocabulary, Greek grammar, and writing expertise to then turn around and copy from another source. In particular the primitivism of Luke over Matthew shows Luke’s redactic maneuvers to avoid the pit falls of Matthew namely a more rigid, thematic approach in order to develop a plausible, sequential narrative, as he promised to do.
CONCLUSION AND SUMMARY
The Synoptic Problem is defined as the literary scenario that persists as a result of the many similarities that exist between the three Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. This is not a new problem; dating back to the time of Augustine there has been cognitive attempts to resolve the commonalities between the three synoptic gospels. The theories that have been proposed and the solutions offered have been many and varied. Augustine thought Matthew had been penned first, followed by Mark then finally Luke. Currently the general view is Mark was penned first followed by Matthew and Luke.
The Treat of Westphalia brought the Thirty Years War to an end and ushered in a time of reexamining all the beliefs held by humankind. This lead to a time of “Enlightment” with the result of a new philosophical method of thought called rationalism. This was a method that produced some of the great concepts of freedom, liberty, and openness. Yet, it also leads to a purely secular mode of philosophy de void of anything supernatural. This in turn lead to the thinking about the gospel writing process as viewed from a strictly human point of view. In particular, how the gospels were written apart from any inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
The current view of the gospel process can be divided into two camps, that of Mark priority Q document and Mark priority No Q document. The Q camp would have people believe they represent main stream Christianity, but that just isn’t the case. There are plenty of scholars that are presenting a plausible process of gospel writing apart from any unknown second source. In addition, since no Q document has ever been found or mentioned in any instrument of antiquity the establishment of such a hypothesis has been as a result of rationalism and the act of a priori philosophical thought.

Pietro Zamboni,

You said : "I will say this. If an environmental catastrophe occurs, killing 90% of the population, religious people will be running around saying, "Praise the Lord, how merciful he is that we (the 10% left) have been saved."

Actually, I have never heard them say that, be them Christian, Hindus or Muslims. In all natural disasters in Asia, from floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanos exploding, religious entities also organize charity drives to complement non-religious affiliated organizations such as Red Cross/Red Crescent, Oxfam and UN relief agencies, supplementing their efforts.

And yes, it may bothersome for non-believers, but prayers are offered for those who lost their lives in such disasters - and inter-denominational too, as in the case of the December 2004 tsunami in Asia. In death, all are the same, and are lost forever - to the undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveller returns.

Let us remember with respect those who lost their lives in the disasters. Let us be mindful of their families and friends who lost their loved ones, whether they believe in God or not.

mr zamboni- not all religions have been hostile to science- islam is a very science friendly religion-

personally i was an environmentalist when it was still called ecology- (i was born in 61)

Considering the hostility religion has displayed towards science throughout recorded history, I hope religion stays out of the fray.

And I wonder about the judgment of people who base their moral code and much of their thinking process on myth and superstition, i.e., the real names for religion. Should we trust these credulous people to make judgments about policy?

I don't think so.

Beware religious people talking about science, because history shows they have a great capacity to lie. For example, today fundamentalist groups in America lie about the health effect of abortion, of using contraception, etc.

I will say this. If an environmental catastrophe occurs, killing 90% of the population, religious people will be running around saying, "Praise the Lord, how merciful he is that we (the 10% left) have been saved."

Realist,

I was being sarcastic with Concerned etc.

Sorry if you took it literally about me answerable "only to God". I still have to answer to and be responsible for my speeding tickets etc and to answer to my bosses on work and such other human responsibilities in life, work, community and nation.

Concerned etc demanded answers without answering those posed to him/her. Just having fun with him or her on a very silly tit for tat actually.

As for the state of the environment, we are still responsible for it and answerable to current and future generations.

Now, do you want to get into that as a realist for starters or do you want to go on as to why you are religion?

Gaby wrote: "I looked at that site and was shaken. I can not believe that people can be so very distusting. And they have the nerve to call themselves Christian."

If that disturbs you, you ought to check out these responses to satire:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/mail/

http://www.venganza.org/category/hate-mail/

Gaby says, "Just underscores my conclusion for myself that I want to have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with any organized religious group."

How's that for a non sequitur?

WOW, Hermit!

I looked at that site and was shaken. I can not believe that people can be so very distusting. And they have the nerve to call themselves Christian.

Just underscores my conclusion for myself that I want to have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with any organized religious group.

Mary Cunningham:

Regarding the blogger who resigned from the Edwards campaign; she did apparently post some rude comments before joining the campaign, but look at the responses she gets from those outraged Christians (I'll just post the link, the comments themselves would violate this site's standards):

http://punk.punkasshost.com/suspended.page/

The "Catholic commentator" who complained was none other than Bill Donohue, a gay-bashing antisemitic bigot who belives Hollywood is controlled by Jews who hate Catholics and love anal sex (his words, not mine.) I don't defend Amanda Marcotte's over the top comments, but this is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Concerned,
Please don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the outcome of the civil war and things are much better than they were for the most part. Racism will always be with us because we are humans and therefore imperfect. But that is a whole 'nuther discussion. lol

Tonio wrote:
---Thomas might have succeeded in making a legitimate point about Big Brother, if he hadn't dragged in that nonsense about pollution arising from the Fall of Man. In my view, that teaching has no place in making environmental policy, and neither does the teaching about the return of Jesus.---

But it does have a place to some people and it is very evident in the column in today's paper about the abortion hypocracy, why Guilanni, Romney and others in the GOP will say they are for choice until they are running at a level where they need the evangelical backing, and then talk about being pro-life. I really don't want to turn this discussion toward abortion, but it illustrates the following point: People of fervent religious conviction will accept any explanation when it is based on their religious teachings, no matter what your previously held position was.

So what Cal is doing is what many evangelicals do, when they cannot advocate for something based on its merits, they bring in religion to sway those who might disagree. In Cal's case, disagreeing with his position is to disagree with the bible and Genesis 1. Are you AGAINST THE BIBLE? Most people view hypocracy as a human failing, something that shows your mind is not clear, that you blow with the wind, can support any position and have no convictions. But there are those in society who are so smitten with their religion that hypocracy is not seen when you agree with their bible. Instead everything becomes black and white. In Cal's case he takes pollution and turns it into a virtue by reciting Genesis 1. You might think this is an example of hypocracy until you understand the evangelical mind, where once you apply the bible nothing is wrong. Pollution is ok (Cal's column), the death penalty is ok, wars are ok, bigotry is ok (KKK), slavery is ok (pre-civil war America), etc...

I have some in-laws who are evangelical and we had them over for a week last summer. While fixing pancakes one morning I heard two of the boys, ages 11 and 13, discussing Shakil O'Neil the basketball player. Their Dad had told them he was playing against the team they normally roote for and it would be a great game to watch. Dad left the room leaving the kids wondering who this great basketball player was. They then discussed it. "You think Shakil is great?" The other said "Dad say he is". The first then said "Shakil. Hmmm, you think he's christian?" The other answered, "Don't know, maybe". They then started talking about whether, based on the name, he was christian. Their problem of course was there was not way for them to know, so they turned to me and asked "Is Shakil a christian?". "Don't know" I answer, "but why would it matter?". Now that got them talking. "Of course it matters!". And that was the end, I didn't want to get them upset so I let it go. But it became clear to me that one's religion was much more important than one's professionalism, greatness in what they do or kindness or anything else.

Martin Luther King once said that you should judge a man on the courage of his convictions and not the color of his skin. I would add that you shouldn't judge a man based on his religion either, but I guess that will be left for future generations to solve. Right now your religion, to some people, determines whether what you say is right or wrong, just as in the past the color of one's skin determined that. Religious bigotry is very evident today, just re-read Cal Thomas' column (if you can find it) and see how he justifies the unjustifiable and who agrees with him. Cal knows who he is talking to and it is not those of us on this blog who do not consider the bible to be the source of all truth. Cal only needs to sway the swayable, the evangelicals who make him the money because he uses their religion to justify what they cannot, and so they read his columns to gain "wisdom", the justifications for what they cannot otherwise justify.

Tonio wrote:
---Thomas might have succeeded in making a legitimate point about Big Brother, if he hadn't dragged in that nonsense about pollution arising from the Fall of Man. In my view, that teaching has no place in making environmental policy, and neither does the teaching about the return of Jesus.---

But it does have a place to some people and it is very evident in the column in today's paper about the abortion hypocracy, why Guilanni, Romney and others in the GOP will say they are for choice until they are running at a level where they need the evangelical backing, and then talk about being pro-life. I really don't want to turn this discussion toward abortion, but it illustrates the following point: People of fervent religious conviction will accept any explanation when it is based on their religious teachings, no matter what your previously held position was.

So what Cal is doing is what many evangelicals do, when they cannot advocate for something based on its merits, they bring in religion to sway those who might disagree. In Cal's case, disagreeing with his position is to disagree with the bible and Genesis 1. Are you AGAINST THE BIBLE? Most people view hypocracy as a human failing, something that shows your mind is not clear, that you blow with the wind, can support any position and have no convictions. But there are those in society who are so smitten with their religion that hypocracy is not seen when you agree with their bible. Instead everything becomes black and white. In Cal's case he takes pollution and turns it into a virtue by reciting Genesis 1. You might think this is an example of hypocracy until you understand the evangelical mind, where once you apply the bible nothing is wrong. Pollution is ok (Cal's column), the death penalty is ok, wars are ok, bigotry is ok (KKK), slavery is ok (pre-civil war America), etc...

I have some in-laws who are evangelical and we had them over for a week last summer. While fixing pancakes one morning I heard two of the boys, ages 11 and 13, discussing Shakil O'Neil the basketball player. Their Dad had told them he was playing against the team they normally roote for and it would be a great game to watch. Dad left the room leaving the kids wondering who this great basketball player was. They then discussed it. "You think Shakil is great?" The other said "Dad say he is". The first then said "Shakil. Hmmm, you think he's christian?" The other answered, "Don't know, maybe". They then started talking about whether, based on the name, he was christian. Their problem of course was there was not way for them to know, so they turned to me and asked "Is Shakil a christian?". "Don't know" I answer, "but why would it matter?". Now that got them talking. "Of course it matters!". And that was the end, I didn't want to get them upset so I let it go. But it became clear to me that one's religion was much more important than one's professionalism, greatness in what they do or kindness or anything else.

Martin Luther King once said that you should judge a man on the courage of his convictions and not the color of his skin. I would add that you shouldn't judge a man based on his religion either, but I guess that will be left for future generations to solve. Right now your religion, to some people, determines whether what you say is right or wrong, just as in the past the color of one's skin determined that. Religious bigotry is very evident today, just re-read Cal Thomas' column (if you can find it) and see how he justifies the unjustifiable and who agrees with him. Cal knows who he is talking to and it is not those of us on this blog who do not consider the bible to be the source of all truth. Cal only needs to sway the swayable, the evangelicals who make him the money because he uses their religion to justify what they cannot, and so they read his columns to gain "wisdom", the justifications for what they cannot otherwise justify.

Nafi Sahgem wrote :
"I am answerable only to God."

I couldn't have made a clearer case for why religion is dangerous.

Hello folks,

This little article just caught my eye:

"A blogger for Edwards Resigns after Complaints:"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021201632.html

The blogger, it seems, posted several anti-Catholic comments on her own *personal* blog and a Catholic commentator complained about them.

Maybe, Mr Meacham & Ms Quinn might post a discussion about it??? Or, barring that, maybe we might have a discussion here?

Hello folks,

This little article just caught my eye:

"A blogger for Edwards Resigns after Complaints:"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021201632.html

The blogger, it seems, posted several anti-Catholic comments on her own *personal* blog and a Catholic commentator complained about them.

Maybe, Mr Meacham & Ms Quinn might post a discussion about it??? Or, barring that, maybe we might have a discussion here?

Deb Chatterjee,

"If you take out religion, then the world will be a environmentally safer place. RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES - Karl Marx"

I misunderstood your post here completely. Please elaborate.

survival of the species.
absolute law of life.
says,as for the scum and foam (falsehood)it goes away,while what is good for mankind (truthhood)stay and last.
survival of the species need 3
1-bread,allready provided by the creator lord
2-morality,allready provided by the creator lord
3-executive rightious governemental leaders,allready prescribed by the creator lord.
people every where need to go back to their creator lord and stop feeding and living on human beings junk.the junk yards,the transfer stations,the recycling centers,the land fills,allready filled up.

survival of the species.
absolute law of life.
says,as for the scum and foam (falsehood)it goes away,while what is good for mankind (truthhood)stay and last.
survival of the species need 3
1-bread,allready provided by the creator lord
2-morality,allready provided by the creator lord
3-executive rightious governemental leaders,allready prescribed by the creator lord.
people every where need to go back to their creator lord and stop feeding and living on human beings junk.the junk yards,the transfer stations,the recycling centers,the land fills,allready filled up.

Greg,

Total 1860 Population

Total Free Population 27,489,561
Total Slave Population 3,953,760
Grand Total 31,443,321

http://www.civilwarhome.com/population1860.htm

i.e. over 10% of the population lived in slavery in 1860. Things have improved significantly.

Methinks that the one R which is sadly missing from the equation is: RELIGION.

If you take out religion, then the world will be a environmentally safer place.

RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES - Karl Marx

You better believe it !

Methinks that the one R which is sadly missing from the equation is: RELIGION.

If you take out religion, then the world will be a environmentally safer place.

RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES - Karl Marx

You better believe it !

Just want to clarify the multiple copies above were not intentional!!!

Just want to clarify the multiple copies above were not intentional!!!

Just want to clarify the multiple copies above were not intentional!!!

Tonio,

I believe that within each defective human body and mind exists an 'intact perfect self', with vestigial memories of a different life. Evident in the existense of psychological defense mechanisms. Adaptation to an incompatible world could be responsible for the emergence of these means to protect our ego. And also in the many times we proclaim "I can't believe I said, or did" something which caused harm to any degree. As though, "I could not have done it--I'm perfect!" I believe at these times SELF-control failed to inhibit automatic physical responses.

I believe oppressive actions flow from an acquired, or physical mind; but that each person; is inherently 'good'. Personal consciousness is our source of creativity, compatibility and desire to 'help'. To look at another person, we can not see the person, but only a body. A person is not a body, but a conscious existence;---a thought. We can analyze a physical mind; but the whole of personal consciousness remains an enigma.

I consider God to be a 'person'; not a human person with a physical mind; but a PURE conscious existence in a world of equality, freedom, love, unlimited potential and everlasting life. I don't think it is anywhere distant; but right in our midst. The problem is while we dig in the paleontology pit; the answers remain buried deep in personal thought.

In a way, to consider God an authority figure could be necessary. Not in the manner 'because God says so'; but because the natural arrangement demands release of self potential; a self-discipline; in actuality an escape from the oppressive mentality acquired from the physical environment. Everything in the human mind has a source; and the IDEAL behavior demanded by nature is not acquired from the world that meets the eye! Unfortunately it seems only when we are in despair do we reach the conscious depth necessary to do so; to seek and receive guidance from God.

Where now we promote an intellectual ascent; although this is a vital necessity; all depends on personal character maturation---the traditional method of which has been prayer, or personal meditation.

Tonio,

I believe that within each defective human body and mind exists an 'intact perfect self', with vestigial memories of a different life. Evident in the existense of psychological defense mechanisms. Adaptation to an incompatible world could be responsible for the emergence of these means to protect our ego. And also in the many times we proclaim "I can't believe I said, or did" something which caused harm to any degree. As though, "I could not have done it--I'm perfect!" I believe at these times SELF-control failed to inhibit automatic physical responses.

I believe oppressive actions flow from an acquired, or physical mind; but that each person; is inherently 'good'. Personal consciousness is our source of creativity, compatibility and desire to 'help'. To look at another person, we can not see the person, but only a body. A person is not a body, but a conscious existence;---a thought. We can analyze a physical mind; but the whole of personal consciousness remains an enigma.

I consider God to be a 'person'; not a human person with a physical mind; but a PURE conscious existence in a world of equality, freedom, love, unlimited potential and everlasting life. I don't think it is anywhere distant; but right in our midst. The problem is while we dig in the paleontology pit; the answers remain buried deep in personal thought.

In a way, to consider God an authority figure could be necessary. Not in the manner 'because God says so'; but because the natural arrangement demands release of self potential; a self-discipline; in actuality an escape from the oppressive mentality acquired from the physical environment. Everything in the human mind has a source; and the IDEAL behavior demanded by nature is not acquired from the world that meets the eye! Unfortunately it seems only when we are in despair do we reach the conscious depth necessary to do so; to seek and receive guidance from God.

Where now we promote an intellectual ascent; although this is a vital necessity; all depends on personal character maturation---the traditional method of which has been prayer, or personal meditation.

Tonio,

I believe that within each defective human body and mind exists an 'intact perfect self', with vestigial memories of a different life. Evident in the existense of psychological defense mechanisms. Adaptation to an incompatible world could be responsible for the emergence of these means to protect our ego. And also in the many times we proclaim "I can't believe I said, or did" something which caused harm to any degree. As though, "I could not have done it--I'm perfect!" I believe at these times SELF-control failed to inhibit automatic physical responses.

I believe oppressive actions flow from an acquired, or physical mind; but that each person; is inherently 'good'. Personal consciousness is our source of creativity, compatibility and desire to 'help'. To look at another person, we can not see the person, but only a body. A person is not a body, but a conscious existence;---a thought. We can analyze a physical mind; but the whole of personal consciousness remains an enigma.

I consider God to be a 'person'; not a human person with a physical mind; but a PURE conscious existence in a world of equality, freedom, love, unlimited potential and everlasting life. I don't think it is anywhere distant; but right in our midst. The problem is while we dig in the paleontology pit; the answers remain buried deep in personal thought.

In a way, to consider God an authority figure could be necessary. Not in the manner 'because God says so'; but because the natural arrangement demands release of self potential; a self-discipline; in actuality an escape from the oppressive mentality acquired from the physical environment. Everything in the human mind has a source; and the IDEAL behavior demanded by nature is not acquired from the world that meets the eye! Unfortunately it seems only when we are in despair do we reach the conscious depth necessary to do so; to seek and receive guidance from God.

Where now we promote an intellectual ascent; although this is a vital necessity; all depends on personal character maturation---the traditional method of which has been prayer, or personal meditation.

Tonio,

I believe that within each defective human body and mind exists an 'intact perfect self', with vestigial memories of a different life. Evident in the existense of psychological defense mechanisms. Adaptation to an incompatible world could be responsible for the emergence of these means to protect our ego. And also in the many times we proclaim "I can't believe I said, or did" something which caused harm to any degree. As though, "I could not have done it--I'm perfect!" I believe at these times SELF-control failed to inhibit automatic physical responses.

I believe oppressive actions flow from an acquired, or physical mind; but that each person; is inherently 'good'. Personal consciousness is our source of creativity, compatibility and desire to 'help'. To look at another person, we can not see the person, but only a body. A person is not a body, but a conscious existence;---a thought. We can analyze a physical mind; but the whole of personal consciousness remains an enigma.

I consider God to be a 'person'; not a human person with a physical mind; but a PURE conscious existence in a world of equality, freedom, love, unlimited potential and everlasting life. I don't think it is anywhere distant; but right in our midst. The problem is while we dig in the paleontology pit; the answers remain buried deep in personal thought.

In a way, to consider God an authority figure could be necessary. Not in the manner 'because God says so'; but because the natural arrangement demands release of self potential; a self-discipline; in actuality an escape from the oppressive mentality acquired from the physical environment. Everything in the human mind has a source; and the IDEAL behavior demanded by nature is not acquired from the world that meets the eye! Unfortunately it seems only when we are in despair do we reach the conscious depth necessary to do so; to seek and receive guidance from God.

Where now we promote an intellectual ascent; although this is a vital necessity; all depends on personal character maturation---the traditional method of which has been prayer, or personal meditation.

God Bless you both. Thank you for this opportunity.

Jihadist,
Thanks for your reply it was very thoughful. As for the original question how often do things stay on topic anyway? lol

What happened to the issue of environment, environmental degradation and religion?

What happened to the issue of environment, environmental degradation and religion?

another enviromental issue is desertification.

Cal Thomas and tecnical probs therein re the posts on his column? I see.... We have enviromental degradation, and now mental degradation, and technical degradation and so forth.

Haven't read what Mr. Thomas wrote lately. Been reading MFK Fisher. Now, that is a writer. Anyone remember "Silent Spring", no, not Soylent Green.

I also see that remapping of the rest of the world is thang of the west still. Why not? We can redivide and remap the whole world along ethic and religious lines. Thousands of nation-states then.

Was this thread supposed to be on the environment? I suppose so, the environment in the Middle East.

Concerned,
I don't know, Turkey made it clear in 2002 when we went into Iraq in the first place that they were totally against the formation of a Kurdish state. I think the bottom 1/3 of the country is kurdish, and they have enough problems with them as it is. And I wish slavery had been abolished, unfortunately it's still going strong, especially in prostitution.

Concerned,
I don't know, they made it clear in 2002 when we went into Iraq in the first place that they were totally against the formation of a Kurdish state. I think the bottom 1/3 of the country is kurdish, and they have enough problems with them as it is. And I wish slavery had been abolished, unfortunately it's still going strong, especially in prostitution.

Dinah, thanks for your thoughts. I tend to make a distinction between "the divine" and "God." I regard the former in pantheistic terms and the latter in pseudo-agnostic terms. That means I reserve judgment on the question of whether a God-being exists. I am deeply skeptical of the Abrahamic definition of God as an authority figure, the idea of "because God says so."

I don't think Cal Thomas's post has been removed; you just can't get there from here. This site seems to be having some technical problems...

Greg,

We must learn from history. The Civil War in the USA no matter the reasons showed the human and environmental horror of such a war. It may have started with states-rights vs federal-rights but slavery was always the underlying issue. From a global perspective, it did end, in general, slavery as practiced at the time. Granted there is still slavery in isolated "geopockets" and there is always the slavery of the mind especially in fundamentalist controlled Islamic and Communist countries but in general the world community learned some important lessons from our Civil War.

With respect to a Kurdish state on the Turkish border: Turkey might like the idea especially if the Kurds in Turkey moved there. UN or European Union troops on the border would keep Turkey in line. I also believe Turkey's great desire to join the European Union will temper their dislike for a Kurdish state in northern Iraq.

Greg,

We must learn from history. The Civil War in the USA no matter the reasons showed the human and environmental horror of such a war. It may have started with states-rights vs federal-rights but slavery was always the underlying issue. From a global perspective, it did end, in general, slavery as practiced at the time. Granted there is still slavery in isolated "geopockets" and there is always the slavery of the mind especially in fundamentalist controlled Islamic and Communist countries but in general the world community learned some important lessons from our Civil War.

With respect to a Kurdish state on the Turkish border: Turkey might like the idea especially if the Kurds in Turkey moved there. UN or European Union troops on the border would keep Turkey in line. I also believe Turkey's great desire to join the European Union will temper their dislike for a Kurdish state in northern Iraq.

"And I don't think Thomas wants a catastrophe, he just does not like Big Brother telling him what to do and how to do it. Either way we need to do a better job with the environment global warming or no."

I don't consciously believes he wants a catastrophe, either. I was using hyperbole to suggest that premillennialism is in inherent conflict with the idea environmental preservation. I don't think Thomas understands that, and I don't think James Watt understood that, either.

Thomas might have succeeded in making a legitimate point about Big Brother, if he hadn't dragged in that nonsense about pollution arising from the Fall of Man. In my view, that teaching has no place in making environmental policy, and neither does the teaching about the return of Jesus.

Tonio,

I believe for each person to recognize the existence and nature of God, and a common human conscience is the natural way to satisfaction---or desirable consequences.

The physical body and world is governed by steadfast natural laws. With an overall arrangement where each cell has a function; which it contributes to form a larger part; which has a function; is contributed to a system; and so on;--forming a whole object. This is the intrinsic arrangement of every natural, and man-made machine. Continued performance is dependent on two basic components. That energy is allowed to flow from the inside-out; and harmonious inter-relationship of parts.

Only humanity is not compliant with this overall arrangement. A human mind is formed from the outside-in; by parents, teachers, government---by the environment,--by human authority. Effecting a behavior incompatible to the natural homeostatic pattern. One capable of destroying each other, and the physical world.

What I believe history shows us is that our isolated primitive ancestors functioned at a physiological level only. Adapted to a view delivered by the physical senses. Environmental appearance was of a hierarchy system, effected by physical power control. The intermittent deleterious actions as earthquakes, floods or hurricanes; or predator-prey animal activity was copied, and incorporated into social systems.

Eyes are machine parts. Vision occurs within personal consciousness. Jesus diverted our vision from the surface to a place deep in personal thought. A common place of truth, equality, peace, love, freedom, personal worth and everlasting life. From here emerged a 'human spirit', an energy which brought truths and compatible social changes into our reality; which brought America into existence.

It may be no coincidence that the American government is in likeness to the overall physical structure. Where each person matters; is free to contribute a personal talent; to contribute to a community; which contributes to a state; to form a nation. Or that energy was allowed to flow not from the environmentally acquired mind; but from the 'heart' of the people; from a dream, a natural social conscience; an inherent need to escape from oppressive activity.

Until recently, all direction was toward common welfare; physical truths were revealed, knowledge used to prevent devestation from natural catastrophe; experienced astounding social, medical and scientific progres; expanded education; with the most significant accomplishments being in the ability to communicate; to 'come together in thought',--which, of course, is our primary means of growth!

Where religions fitted God into the reality formed by mankind; projecting a physical image; a God with physical needs, and an oppressive mentality; I believe America--through 'the people'--opened the door to God's world;--to the REAL world!

That a physical world with an intrinsic design for homeostasis and harmonious inter-relationship, would hold external motions capable of ultimate destruction; and that humanity with a primary intrinsic need for love, would try to overpower each other; can only be explained to me in that; the destructive motions are not original; we adapted to an environmental change; that our direction and need is in fact as Marianne Williamson suggests "A Return to Love"; that within each person is a highly resilient, intact PERFECT SELF; the maturation of through prayer; and subsequent social release is not only the natural way to harmonious inter-relationship; but to restore a PERFECT WORLD.

The establishment of a United Nations offered the opportunity to simulate the overall natural arrangement; to release 'the heart' of human consciousness; to allow each person to contribute to a community; to contribute to a state; to contribute to a nation; to contribute to the world; to human unity!

But even though the American government offers this arrangement; the oppressive mentality always remained dominant. I do not believe there is a single human establishment arranged according to the intrinsic natural scheme.

So, I believe the intrinsic natural human mind, body and physical world exemplifies the conscious nature of a loving infinite Creator. The source of our affinity for a world that continues to thrive only in our deepest personal thought. A world that can be brought into the 'here and now' through conscious cohesion; with each other,---and God!

Tonio you are right on about the souths views on slavery, but Lincoln said that if he could save the union by not freeing any of them he would, if he could save the union by freeing some of them and leaving others slaves, he would... It's an imperfect paraphrase but you get the idea. The states (especially in the South) thought that their rights came before that of the federal government. Lincoln thought otherwise. I don't think anything could have stopped the war from coming. And I don't think Thomas wants a catastrophe, he just does not like Big Brother telling him what to do and how to do it. Either way we need to do a better job with the enviornment global warming or no.

Greg:

South Carolina's statement of secession makes it clear that the perpetuation of slavery was the motive. "State's rights" in 1861 was really a euphemism for slaveowners' rights. The South claimed that northern states had no right to grant citizenship to free blacks. Plus, the Confederate constitution prohibited states and newly admitted territories from banning slavery within their own borders. The statement cited the election of Lincoln in 1860 as the last straw, since the stated objective of the Republicans was to do away with slavery.

I think that's enough history for now. Cal Thomas' entry for the environmental topic continues to give me the creeps. One doesn't have to believe in global warming to wonder if Thomas and some of his fellow Armageddonists actually want an environmental catastrophe.

I notice that Cal Thomas' response to the question... and the reader responses... have apparently been removed. Since his reader responses were, for the most part, highly unfavorable, it looks to me as if Mr. Thomas can't stand the heat.

Whenever I prepare a lengthy response to any of these posts, I typically do my work in a text editor, then copy-and-paste the response here. I sometimes save the response so I don't lose my work due to a power hiccup, or such. It so happens that I saved my response to Mr. Thomas... so I am able to recreate SOME of that heat, here. I see it as a HUGE disservice to the readers, to deny them the opportunity to assess the warped, ugly and very dangerous views of one of America's most influential journalists. So, with that in mind, here is my (now deleted) response to Cal Thomas:

Cal Thomas wrote: "There is a certain “fundamentalism” in the secular liberal approach to “global warming.” Even some evangelicals are getting into this “faith” that the earth is getting warmer because of human action."

-- 'Faith'? You need to get up to speed on the science. --

Cal Thomas wrote: "Some of the same scientists who accept “global warming” as true also say the planet will continue to get warmer no matter what humans do. And since the planet has warmed and cooled during periods long before the Industrial Revolution and hydrocarbon emissions became a concern, the worshipers of “Mother Earth” are hard-pressed to blame this cyclical phenomena solely on human behavior, though that has not stopped them from trying."

-- One thing that you fail to appreciate here is that this is the first time that such a thing has occurred while a technically competent species was extant... a society that might end up getting destroyed, unless we act. And though the planet will continue to get warmer no matter what we do, if we take action NOW we can POSSIBLY avert attaining the 'tipping point'. Do you know what will happen if the permafrost thaws, in northern climes? Hundreds of BILLIONS of tons of CO2 will be released into the atmosphere in a VERY short time span. At that point, RUNAWAY global warming will likely occur... a process that will be irreversible via human intervention, and might very well leave us with a climate very much like Venus. Nobody will walk away from that.

But you don't think that we need to worry about that, do you? (More on that, below). --

Cal Thomas wrote: "I am a conservationist, not an environmentalist. Conservationists believe people should be persuaded not to foul the air, water and land we share. Environmentalists think "big brother" should control what we eat, wear, drive and how much water we should be allowed to use while taking a shower, or flushing a toilet. They worship at the shrine of big government, believing government knows what is best for all of us."

-- Wow. Talk about 'disingenuous'. The reason that it is necessary for 'big brother' to get involved is that people CAN NOT BE "...persuaded not to foul the air, water and land we share"... except, of course, for them danged 'secular liberal' weenies, who you disparage... those who are possessed of an environmental 'conscience'. Those who are concerned about the kind of world we will bequeath to our progeny, generations hence.

But you don't think that we need to worry about that, do you? (More on that, below). --

Cal Thomas wrote: "In Genesis 1, God subjected all He had created to Adam and told him to "subdue" the earth. Following that event, in Genesis 3, Man fell and both Man and the earth became corrupted. This led to disease and ultimately pollution and the death of all living things."

-- Here is where Mr. Thomas lets us get a first peek his 'Dominionist' credentials. Genesis 1:26 of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament):
"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" (NIV)

Most Christians interpret this verse as meaning that God gave mankind dominion over the animal kingdom. But 'Dominion' theologians believe that that this verse commands Christians to bring all societies, around the world, under the rule of the Word of God.

Its most common form, Dominionism, represents one of the most extreme forms of Fundamentalist Christianity thought. Its followers, called Dominionists, are attempting to peacefully convert the laws of United States so that they match those of the Hebrew Scriptures. They intend to achieve this by using the freedom of religion in the US to train a generation of children in private Christian religious schools. Later, their graduates will be charged with the responsibility of creating a new Bible-based political, religious and social order. One of the first tasks of this order will be to eliminate religious choice and freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the "Kingdom of God" in which much of the world is converted to Christianity. They feel that the power of God's word will bring about this conversion. No armed force or insurrection will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People will willingly accept it. All that needs to be done is to properly 'explain it to them'.

All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than strictly Fundamentalist Christianity would be suppressed. Nonconforming Evangelical, main line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and executed. Blasphemy, adultery and homosexual behavior would be criminalized; those found guilty would also be executed.

There were an estimated 110,000 Pentecostal and fundamentalist churches in America in the 1980s. Pat Robertson taught them... through his vast television network and through his books... that the role of the Christian is to rule over the wicked. Dominionism’s purpose is to create theocrats (a Christian class of rulers). But in order to successfully place only certain Christians in positions of power, Dominionism divides Christian believers into classes based upon political ideology and certain hot point issues.
 
The believers who are destined to rule are called the “elect,” and are separated from those believers who do not and will not accept the predestined superiority of the chosen ruling class. A Christian who raises his voice against the “elect” could be labeled a “false prophet or a dreamer of dreams,” and therefore, according to the Deuteronomic law “shall be put to death.”
 
Placing his own words in the mouth of God, Robertson wrote in The Secret Kingdom: “It is clear that God is saying, ‘I gave man dominion over the earth, but he lost it. Now I desire mature sons and daughters who will in My name exercise dominion over the earth and will subdue Satan, the unruly, and the rebellious. Take back My world from those who would loot it and abuse it. Rule as I would rule.’” (p. 201.)
 
On his 700 Club television show (5-1-86) Robertson said: “God’s plan is for His people, ladies and gentlemen to take dominion. What is dominion? Well, dominion is Lordship. He wants His people to reign and rule with Him… but He’s waiting for us to… extend His dominion… And the Lord says, ‘I’m going to let you redeem society. There’ll be a reformation. We are not going to stand for those coercive utopians in the Supreme Court and in Washington ruling over us any more. We’re not gonna stand for it. We are going to say, ‘we want freedom in this country, and we want power…’” --

Cal Thomas wrote: "The Christian who believes the Bible also believes that God will restore the Earth -- as He will Man -- to the perfect state he once enjoyed before he fell. "A new heaven and a new earth," John puts it in Revelation.

While we are not indifferent to being good stewards of this planet (just as we want a hotel room that is clean when we travel), we know this is not our ultimate home and so we do not "worship" Earth as our mother, or anything other than what it is: A temporary dwelling place that is a preview of a far better place that is still to come."

-- So... this is where Mr. Thomas truly reveals his hugely warped, ugly and dangerous thinking. When he says that he believes that we should "... be PERSUADED not to foul the air, water and land we share", he means that we must take reasonable steps to assure that we don't make the world completely uninhabitable BEFORE Jesus returns... probably within the next 50 years... waving a flaming sword and destroying everything and everyone, except for the 'chosen few'. He believes that the world was put here for our pleasure and use. We don't have to be worried about preserving the environment and resources for future generations for the simple reason that future generations won't need this earth; the few who survive Jesus' holocaust will be given a NEW earth... and the rest will be condemned to the fires of hell.

Cal Thomas is a Bush-clone (or vice-versa)... and Bush thinks he is on a mission from god, charged with shaping the Middle East and setting the conditions for Jesus' return. These people do not care about the long-term consequences of raising the national debt to crushing levels... because they believe that the world will soon be destroyed by 'the Lord', and we won't have to pay it back. They are not worried about global warming, because they think that it will take 100 years for it to become catastrophic... and Jesus will be back to destroy the world and punish evil-doers (99% + of the world's population) LONG before that happens. Thus (in their alleged minds), global warming is NOT a crisis... it is a mere distraction. That is why the Bushies have pooh-poohed the idea of global warming, and tried to dissuade the public from getting noisily concerned about it. Similarly, they are not worried about the depletion of resources or the destruction of the environment. Why should they be? There are MORE than enough resources to last until 'the Lord' gets back here, and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to totally booger-up the environment enough to make it uninhabitable in that time-frame. In all of these arenas, there are absolutely NO worries about letting things get so bad that they are irreversible... because nobody will EVER have to be concerned about reversing them.

Our foreign policy stance of unbridled support for the state of Israel is predicated not upon morality... it is predicated on the belief that it is necessary for Israel to exist in order for biblical prophecy to be fulfilled. In other words, we are helping to prevent Israel's destruction at the hands of the Moslems, just so that it might be PROPERLY destroyed at the hands of 'the Lord'.

Mr. Thomas, you are dangerously deluded... and you are made MORE dangerous by virtue of the fact that you have a wide audience. You are locked into a world-view that is rooted in the myths, superstitions, fairy tales and fantastical delusions of an ignorant gaggle of Bronze Age fishermen and peripatetic goat herders. You fathom these fairy tales to be some kind of cosmic 'truth'... although your 'truths' have no more of a basis in reality than do Odin, Zeus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, bridge trolls or garden gnomes.

To learn what this crazy old coot is REALLY all about... along with the wing-nuts in the White House... Google for 'dominionism'. Pay particular attention to hits from the 'yurikareport' and 'religioustolerance.org'.

Mr. Thomas... the knowledge that a significant number of people like you exist, and are in positions of power and influence, sickens my heart. A pox upon you, and all of your ilk. --

Absolutely. The environment (especially concerns about global warming, oil consumption, and protection of natural resources) needs to be a priority for people of faith. In the mainline church of which I am a member we are taught the importance of stewardship. I remember the time in the early 1990s at a Saturday workshop a man from our church's headquarters passed around a brochure on stewardship that was still being developed, along with a clipboard on which we could write feedback. The brochure mentioned stewardship with regard to money, time and talents. I wrote, "What about stewardship of the environment?"

Jihadist,
Thanks for the reply. I feel like I'm looking through dirty glass when it comes to things like this. I can see some but not clearly.

Concerned, do you really think Turkey is going to allow an independant Kurdish state? Ah, no. And the Civil War was about state rights vs. federal rights. Lincoln did not go to war over slavery. It evolved into that after Gettysburg.

Jihadist,
Thanks for the reply. I feel like I'm looking through dirty glass when it comes to things like this. I can see some but not clearly.

Concerned, do you really think Turkey is going to allow an independant Kurdish state? Ah, no. And the Civil War was about state rights vs. federal rights. Lincoln did not go to war over slavery. It evolved into that after Gettysburg.

In my opinion the health of our enviornment should be everyones concern. I don't understand people who don't care about the enviornment. Sometimes I don't think if its a matter of having faith, spirituality or whatever. For me its the sheer beauty of whats left of our world that has not been destroyed by mankinds greed for money, and materials. While our leaders, and the so called educated minds argue if global warming is real, our planet is undergoing dramatic changes, and most if not all of those changes are not healthy for old mother earth. Nature has always been beautiful to me, even before I became spiritual. Nature can still inspire a sense of awe and wonderment in me. Nothing made by humans can ever compete with nature in my book. The planet is one big home to everyone, so why should we not all care about the condition of our home? Regardless of ones beliefs concerning God.

Uh, what happened to On Faith. Can't post on any of the articles. Did someone try to start a war over the internet or what? Thought there was a good thing going - I guess others felt not.

Testing the system.

The Tsunami (WHICH KILLED SO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE AND CHILDREN TOTALLY INDISCRIMINENTLY) proved one of four things and all of them (should have been) lethal to religion:

1) There is no God.

2) There is a God but he's utterly powerless and has no control over anything.

3) There is a Gd and he chose not to do anything...because he's nice like that.

3) There is a God and he was directly responsible and as such he's a nasty bast@rd.

Any one of those makes religion pointless and unwelcome.

"That God punishes may be a human illusion; But that God is related to the behavior that helps; that does not overpower, or bring things to an end---seems very true."

Dinah, I don't understand your meaning of "behavior that helps." Do you mean behavior that benefits humans in some way, or behavior that would make global climate change worse?

My issue is with the definition of God as a being that consciously and deliberately rewards or punishes humans. That is not the same thing as actions having natural consequences, because it comes down to pleasing a capricious authority figure. If the punishment part is a human illusion, why wouldn't that be true of the reward part?

What has always amazed me is that Christians believe in creation and as such one would think that all that their god created would be held as sacrosanct.

However not when one looks at the history of religion. Christians will kill or protest vociferously over abortion or gay marriage but not over the destruction of the planet or cruelty to "gods" animals.

Me thinks that if you believe, nothing can be more blasphemous than the destruction of what you believe your god created.

What has always amazed me is that Christians believe in creation and as such one would think that all that their god created would be held as sacrosanct.

However not when one looks at the history of religion. Christians will kill or protest vociferously over abortion or gay marriage but not over the destruction of the planet or cruelty to "gods" animals.

Me thinks that if you believe, nothing can be more blasphemous than the destruction of what you believe your god created.

The U.S was stupid enough to take away Saddam's leash and offer Muslims in Iraq choice and freedom.
They took the the freedom to make a choice that they would butcher each other.

Saddam was a smart cookie..he knew Muslims had to be kept on a leash for their own good. We assumed they had evolved a bit more than that though, but were proven wrong.

Let them get on with it.
One side and Iran vs one side and Saudi.
Stand back and let them destroy each other.

We can, in the meantime, get things ready to defend ourselves from the Islamist threat at home as the enemy within carry out their plans for global Jihad.

The U.S was stupid enough to take away Saddam's leash and offer Muslims in Iraq choice and freedom.
They took the the freedom to make a choice that they would butcher each other.

Saddam was a smart cookie..he knew Muslims had to be kept on a leash for their own good. We assumed they had evolved a bit more than that though, but were proven wrong.

Let them get on with it.
One side and Iran vs one side and Saudi.
Stand back and let them destroy each other.

We can, in the meantime, get things ready to defend ourselves from the Islamist threat at home as the enemy within carry out their plans for global Jihad.

I think, it is our moral, as well as, legal responsibility, to take part in the worldwide concern over the world warming trend. Even though, according to our official government view that it is not sufficiently researched, hence not positively proved. Therefore not yet politically approved by our own government.

It is sad that our government puts far more conditions on the efforts of other concerned countries in taking firm and positive prevention measures to prevent, at least further erosion, of our only protection from the deadly sun rays coming thru those gigantic holes in our very fragile atmosphere.

Religion, no matter which belief system one approves and/or accepts, has this moral factor. The morally wrong thing, such as letting our government postpone taking good and positive measures to forestall further erosion, a necessarily, government's legal as well as moral responsibily is sad. If our government, for any or all valid reasons, denies the other countries their own protection by continous and constant refusal to fall in line, cooperate and contribute in this most grave and urgent call, it would fall upon our own individual shoulders, as common men and women, to push, prod, prevail upon the elcted representatives to follow our edicts. Let them know in no uncertain terms that we are serious. Warn them not to overturn our demands to make the common efforts work.

By the way, in a lighter mood, here is my joke on the warming of our dear earth, the only world we know. Here we go again.

Three gentlemen, all of different faith, meet in a bar. One Minister remarks to one Jew rabbi, after wiping his drenched forehead for the fifth time in very concerned voice, "Boy, it is hotter than Hell, here." To which the Rabbi, replies, very quickly, "Honorable sir, you mean the Christian Hell, I suppose, I am fine here, Minister." The Muslim Mullah interjects, in a hurry, not to take it lying down, "Dear sirs, both of you, that is very interesting observation. Your wrong faiths gets you nowhere, Hotter-than-hell for our Christian man of collar, and at the same time, cold as ice for the Jewish rabbi. The honorable Rabbi, whose Synagogue in Tel Aviv, itself a hotter than hell place of worship of a wrong god. It looks like, there is nothing wrong with our weather, what, obviously seems to be a problem is your perception about heaven and hell. You two differ in where such things are and how good and how bad they ar. You both are wrong because you two men of book, follow wrong religions having wrong gods." "I, on the other hand, a devote Muslim, am having most wonderful time, right here in our heaven, haven, jehannem, bar, whatever, as my god, the only God, One god, he takes care of me, whether I be in heaven, in Christian hell, or a very confortable bar." "It pays to worship the right god." The joke is over.

Just kidding, I am neither a Christian, nor a Jewish person and I would never consider becoming a Muslim. I am secure in the notion that my 'thirty-three million Hindu gods' would in no time flat fill this hole in the ozone layer surround the earth by standing in front of it so that sun rays could not and would not dare enter and burn our holy Hindu asses. More is always better.

Sid Harth

Victoria,

Repeating your opening comment to the discussion of global warming and the environment:

"are these questions just getting stupider?"

February 7, 2007 12:13 PM

liberated- iraqi history did not begin when america turned its eyed toward it- and i have a feeling your concern for the people in iraq popped up when you could use it as a vehicle to attack muslims for what you PERCEIVE they believe-

i want to test the limits of your inventiveness liberated- to see how you manage to insert some islamaphobia into any given topic-

do you think tree hugging activists organizing loggers into unions is a self defeating activity?

waiting cheerfully for an answer to the only query ive ever made of you-
peace

A. Hermit,

Yes indeed, the USA had a horrific Civil War. It was for a just cause, the end of slavery. You would think the global communities would have learned from that great horror.

As I have noted before, we could build a "wall" around Baghdad and let the Sunnis and Shiites "civily" annihilate each other. We could also build walls, actual or geographic separating the Kurds in the north, the Sunnis in the center and the Shiites in the south.

Separation of incompatible parties is not uncommon. e.g. Czech Republic and Slovakia, the Balkan states. (Such separation of Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites is being promoted by various US Senators.) At the moment, we have decided to try to maintain the peace. The Islamic "crazies" in Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia following their own versions of Allah and the flawed, militant Koran, would also continue to cause strife in Iraq if we left the region without bringing peace to Iraq.

See also my previous thoughts about the conflict in Israel i.e. a UN mandate that did not work which needs fixing by making Jerusalem an international city and Israeli and Palestinian state borders being maintained by UN troops.

certainty of the day of judgement.
life and death is serious proof for the day of resurrection and the day of judgement.
global warming is serious proof for crime and punishment,for those who donot belive in the day of judgement.
o mankind ! fear your lord and be dutiful to him! verily ,the earthquake of the hour (of judgement) is a terrible thing.

and among mankind is who dispute about ALLAH ( master of the day of judgement)without knowledge or guidance, or a book giving light.

please read the last divine revelation ( Quran ) mercy to mankind.

ignorance is major contributer to global warming and burning.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated; you are right to behave in such a superior manner; after all a great Christian nation like the United States would never have a Civil War.

Oh wait...http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm

Never mind...

Oh, please! Krauthammer is spouting self-serving propaganda. We didn't midwife anything. We created chaos and now nobody can figure out how to get the jinny back into the bottle.

Jihadist aka Crusader,

Since you have such great knowledge of the thinking of the Sunnis and Shiites of Iraq, why not go there and help make peace?

Peace would mean a fast exit of the US forces from Iraq.

And the Islamic suicide bombers? What book are they following??

Again, simply answer the question, Do you condemn the militant passages of the Koran? Yes or no with no "Jihadist" historical "wishy-wash"?

Again as per Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post, "Iraq is their country. We midwifed their freedom. They chose civil war."

(a civil war that could turn into a world war with huge human and environmental horror).

Tonio,

That God punishes may be a human illusion; But that God is related to the behavior that helps; that does not overpower, or bring things to an end---seems very true.

Jihadist, mon ami:

Thank you for this concise and informative post! There should be nothing in it that a thinking person from the west would disagree with, unless they are neo-cons or fundies.

Nafi,

You forgot London is 8 hours behind you. And yes, those restaurants are still great to eat at, and Nobu too.

As for Concerned, well keep being kittenish with him or her. Just go into the killer cat mode with fangs bared and claws out. And yes, he or she deserve it. I may join in sometimes, in the attack of the killer kittens, er, cats, I mean killer whales.

Greg,

If you don't already know, the historical differences between Sunnis and Shiites are due to who is to succeed the Prophet Muhammad PBUH when the Prophet died. The group that become Shiites insisted it was Ali, his cousin and son in law. It was the Shiites who insisted the descendants of Ali and Fatima, the Prophet's daughter, lead the Muslim umma. Subsequent wars were fought by the Shiites and Sunnis over that.

The group that became Sunnis held that as the Prophet did not name his successor, hence, the man who could and should lead the Muslim umma be the best among them - as a Muslim by his faith and example. The Shiites insisted that the Prophet did say that Ali is to succeed him. Who knows for certain.

The beliefs of the Shiites are streghtened when the Prophet's grandson, Hussain, was killed at Karbala. This was injustice to them and an affront by Muslims to kill the blood, the descendants of the Prophet. Over centuries, Shiites supported the Prophet's descendants for the Caliphate of Islam and fought wars on it. Who knows for sure if they are truly descended and there were many, many pretenders. Shiites are also a minority within Islam and they are, over the course of Islamic history in the Middle East, persecuted by caliphs, not descended from the Prophet's bloodline, who sees them as direct challenges to their authority.

End of brief history and now on to Iraq. Until under Saddam's regime, the Sunnis, a minority in Iraq, ruled the majority Shiites there. The worst opppression and brutality were perpetrated against Shiites and Kurds, never mind the fact that the Kurds are largely Sunnis if Muslims, and the Shiites are Arabs.

The US invasion opened a hornet's net. With the invasion and intervention of the US came the dismantling of the Sunni regime, putting them out of jobs in administration and governance. Elections also put the majority Shiites in power by sheer numbers. Now, during Saddam's regime, the Iraqi Shiite mullahs and ayatollahs are key dissidents mobilizing Shiites againts what they righty regard and unquestionably is, the unjust and brutal regime of Saddam Husssein, who by the way, is a quite secular Muslim except when he want to invade Kuwait and then, to pursue war against Iran. Then he invoke God and is shown praying on TV.

And Iraqi Sunnis, now out of power and jobs, and fearing the Shiites will have a theocracy like Iraq are fighting. It also does not help that some Arab rulers and governments in the Middle East, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, talked up fears of a Shiite Crescent from Iran to Lebanon. So, naturally, what the Muftis of Saudi Arabia are saying are reflecting what their governments said. By the way, the Saudi kingly dynasty is a very new one, less than 150 years, and brought about by, among others, Lawrence of Arabia and the British who carved out and remap the Middle East from the Turkish Ottomans. Arab nationalism is strong and to say so is an understatement. The King of Jordan is supposedly descended from Prohet Muhammad PBUH. But not the Saudi Kings and royal family.

As a Southeast Asian Muslim, it made my head spin to read about the historical wounds that won't bleed and scars that won't heal until now in the Middle East. All non Middle East Muslims wants them to stop killing one another, but it went beyond religion now, and is for power and control, of lands and resources, and to remain in power, legitimate or not.

At the practical level, the Organization of Islamic Conferences do try to engage the warring factions in Iraq, but most Muslim states are leery of coming in as they, knowing the history of Iraq, the repression of Saddam Hussein and Sunni dominance before, would know that Sunnis would fight to remain in power, and against the Shiites in power if they see their interests are subsumed or marginalized. And the Shiites would wreak vengeance on Saddam's Sunnis suppporters who were his instruments of governance and oppression. It has now escalated into tit for tat and aggravated by US invasion whose architects spectacularly ignored the geopolitical, social and religious realities.

I do agree with Nafi as to why should Muslims in the rest of the world are expected now to be responsible for the mayhem in Iraq when practically all are against the US led invasion and occupation. What Nafi is not saying is that, the US administration and some US citizens, like Concerned, is blaming all Muslims, and Islam etc due to their flawed policies in the Middle East.

I am being resigned about current Iraq and its civil war between Sunnis and Shiites. All civil wars do end, but like many Muslims, I am sceptical that the US really want to "liberate" Iraq for Iraqis, or what they are doing is in the interest of Iraq and the Middle East. There were plans before the invasion for possible partitioning of Iraq into Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite areas. These were on the table even after Iraq was expelled from Kuwait for invading it. The US and UK had imposed no fly zones to Kurdish and some Shiite areas by Iraqi planes thus accentuating the differences between the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. Of course, Saddam, by his policies, already did that. And remember the infamous Shiite uprising Bush Sr called for against Saddam and they did and the US never sent backup? The said Shiites were brutally suppressed by Saddam.

With that kind of recent history between Shiites and Sunnis, who lived peacefully for hundreds of years together, why do anyone wonder about the current civil war? The closest contemporary parallel, sort of, in the west that I can think of is Northern Ireland.

It remains, and is the sole responsibilities of all Iraqis, regardless of Sunni, Shiite or Kurd, to deal with it themselves. Oh yes, the US needs to get out to. Muslims consider the US invasion as an unprokoved attack and unjustified war. And some non Iraqi Muslims do pour into Iraq to "liberate" Iraq from US occupation whether the Iraqis want it or not, ask for it or not.

Jihadist,
You make some good points and have been entertaining to read, but how do we as people get the Sunnis and the Shiites(sp?) to stop slaughtering each other in Iraq? I think some progress was made recently with arressting the health minister to cut into the funding of some of the Milita, but it seems like they are hell bent on genocide. How would you as a Muslim approach getting both sides to stop killing and start talking? What Islamic priciples would you stand on to support your points? (you don't have to quote chapter and verse)

Jihadist (aka Crusader) et al,

Your country is at war for one reason, the militant passages of the Koran, a war that might envelope the world in an environmental disaster.

Again, do you condemn these passages? Yes or No?

As evidence from your response above, the "wishy-wash" continues.

With respect to my racism and sexism, you are very, very mistaken. Bringing to your attenttion the racism (Sunnis vs. Shiites) and sexism (e.g. the Taliban males vs. Afghani women) does not make me a racist or sexist.

And you still have not responded to the Saudi Arabian Islamic mullah comment about Shiites. i.e. "Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

huh, what are doing up so late J? Red Fort, Hakkasan and Locanda Locatelli still good to eat at?

Well, your friend, Concerned etc is a weird one. He or she deserve it for ideas from building walls, deleting passages of the Qur'an, asking us to sign statements. And to presume we should do what he or she wanted. I read in another thread Concerned etc wants to change your handle here from Jihadist to Crusader.

Concerned etc
I have formed an ad hoc working group to add additional passages to the Qur'an. To update it and be in line with the times.

We need help as to whether to call our bomb the Islamic bomb, and find right terms such as Islamochemical warfare. Want to help? Can use your help. You have many interesting ideas.

And who is this Krauthammer who quoted again and again? Is he the one and only required reading? Does he knows you are using him as a hammer to drive home some of your ideas?

And you have not even answered any of my questions I posed to you but instead demanded I answered yours. I am answerable only to God.

"'Judgment Day' comes not from God, but from us - how we have lived our lives on this planet, our own actions & states of being."

I'm more comfortable with that definition, which involves the natural consequences of our actions, than with defining Judgment Day as God punishing the human race because it didn't sufficiently please him.

Hello Hermit, Hello LT

That's the thing about Concerned the Christian Now liberated. S/he makes perfect sense on the environment but took leave of his/her senses on Muslims. S/he is just being persistently provocative to get some answers, any responses from Muslims on his/her questions. Never mind they are laced with racism and sexism. And, dare I say, Islamophobia.

No wonder Nafi is on a gleeful rampage against him/her on the more absurb elements of his/her postings here. And I see that Concerned has modified his/her demands from deleting the militant passages of the Qur'an to asking Muslims to condemn it. Asking us to deplore it next?

Well Nafi will say, not a chance in hell to delete or condemn the said passages and I'm with her. I am against such editions and/or modifications as I've stated elsewhere here with Concerned.

Which brings me to what LT raised in a more civil way what is rattling in Concerned's mind, an undoubted pacifist and not just a concerned enviromentalist.

There is no need nor any reason to delete anything in the Qur'an. Muslims, like people of other faiths, do and do not practice all elements of their faiths according to their devoutness and beliefs. For example, the Five Pillars of Islam. I myself sometimes miss some of the five prayers prescribe per day. And when travelling, sometimes I don't fast. As for giving alms, I do go above and beyond what is presribed. And for the Hajj, though required only to do once in a lifetime if you are fit and able enough to do it, I had performed the Hajj thrice already.

And likewise for the Suras related to war in the Qur'an. I will not go into details and quote Suras here at length as Victoria has done so several times in other On Faith threads. What I want to raise here is what Muslims actually do.

In matters related to the "war" Suras of the Qur'an, I will take two key entities - the Muslim state (meaning countries where Muslims are majorities and governed by Muslims); and Muslim non-state actors (meaning insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists). Now I will not go into hair-splitting about who is a terrorist. The cliche goes that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Muslim states, some 50 at least, as members of the international community and United Nations and its sister organizations, comply with the UN Charter as well as the Geneva Conventions on war.
And when they do go to war, even with one another as in the case of Iraq invading Kuwait, international laws were applied. In the case of Iraq invading Kuwait, Muslim sentiments and Muslim states easily supported the UN multinational forces as it was an obvious act of unprovoked aggression by Iraq. This is clear in the related Suras of the Qur'an as well as international laws that the state that commits unprovoked aggression is wrong.

In the case of the Iran-Iraq war, it was also an act of unprovoked aggression by Saddam Hussein's Iraq, leading the late Ayatollah Khomeini to call it "a blasphemy against God". The Grand Ayatollah is right to say so according to the Qur'an on war.

However, in both wars by Muslim states, the Suras on the bounty of war - booty and slaves etc, were not subsribed to. Oh yes, the Iraqi soldiers looted Kuwait, but Iraq was made to pay back. During the Iran-Iraq war, treatment of prisoners of wars and subsequent exchanges of them as well as return of the dead soldiers by both sides were in compliance with "secular" international laws and bilateral agreements.

As for the Muslim insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists, the Suras of the Qur'an to fight against aggression, tyranny, oppression whenever Muslims find them was and is the rallying cries by Muslims against colonialism and now against governments they are opposed. And alternate belief, or ideology is the rallying points of us vs them. And the leaders do get creative and excessive in widening their rationale and justifications in issuing fatwas (religious/legal opinions) and in their own interpretations of the Qur'anic Suras. Some even issued fatwas condoning suicide bombings which is comdemned widely by Muslim Muftis and ulema.

While some Muslim insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists expanded ideas of war and Jihad above and beyond what is sanctioned in the Qur'an, including killing civilians and non-combatants (women, children etc)they do ignore nor practice the taking of booty and slaves. And when they are apprehended and tried in Muslim states, they are tried not by Qur'anic or Shariah laws, but largely by "secular/civil laws". This, of course, does not apply to Muslim states where the secular government has failed and what the west called Islamists took over, including in Afghanistan, and Somalia.

Pity that Islamists is such another abused term as there other aspects of Islamic principles as stated in the Qur'an that Muslims are quite enthusiastic about in complying with. Including Islamic banking and financial services :)

I, like LT, will leave my comments here as is and give no further.

EVANEL L.

"Judgment Day comes not from God, but from us-how we have lived our lives on this planet, our own actions & state of being."

Why is this truth not recognized? Not our primary educational focus?

> Evanel L. :

> Outer actions express inner states of being. How we humans treat others and live within our
> environment is a direct reflection of our spiritual evolution & awareness.

That is a very good point and one that I'd like to underline. May the darkness we're now passing through end quickly.

Concerned the Christian actually raises a good point about war and the environment (which he undermines with his Muslim bashing obsession).

The casualty reports only tell part of the story.

Iraqi cancers, birth defects blamed on U.S. depleted uranium:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

The legacy of Agent Orange:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4494347.stm

Thanks again, Hermit.

":" and LT speak to my issue regarding the Old Testament. In answer to ":", I reject the concept of original sin, particularly as pushed by Paul and by Augustine. I read Genesis as an allegory for the development of human sentience, which gave us the capacity for moral choice and the awareness of death.

Answering LT's point is trickier. A bedrock principle in both Judaism and Christianity is that everything that God does is inherently good. Believers are expected to excuse actions by God that they wouldn't excuse if God was human. I find that idea not only horrid but dangerous, because it forms the basis for the "divine mission" mindset held by religious extremists.

LT is almost certainly right about the child sacrifice practices of many ancient peoples. However, using those practices to justify genocide sound wrong to me, and I say that as a parent. For the moment, let's ignore the practical argument about whether deadly force would be necessary to rescue the children. My issue is with the idea that killing is okay as long as it's God who orders it. No sentient being should have that absolute life-or-death power over another sentient being. For all we know, the genocide at Jericho was Joshua's idea and he was just claiming that God ordered it to motivate his troops.

To get a contemporary update on the OT and NT, I recommend many of the books of JD Crossan, e.g. The Historical Jesus, Excavating Jesus and In Search of Paul. Reading these books will help in understanding first century Palestine. They will also help connect the "prophecies" and myths of the OT to the embellishments of the NT.

The natural environment also of this time period is reviewed in the Excavating Jesus and In Search of Paul.

Victoria,

Please observe the harm to the environment due to a civil war e.g. citizens, cars, trucks, buildings and oil pipelines burning, trees destroyed, sewage and power plants reduced to rubble, and air/ground pollution from bombs.

Again as per Charles Krauthammer, "Iraq is their country. We midwifed their freedom. They chose civil war."

And again you dodge the major question, "Do you or do you not condemn the militant passages of the Koran. Yes or No?????

Personally, I believe global warming is directly relevant to faith, because I cannot imagine Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or any other high-level spiritual figure condoning environmental destruction. None of them were avid consumers, materialists, capitalists, or techies - and if they were living today, I cannot imagine them as such either.

Outer actions express inner states of being. How we humans treat others and live within our environment is a direct reflection of our spiritual evolution & awareness.

Global warming = one more sign that Humankind is creating its own Hell on Earth. This, along with wars, hunger, disease, environmental & species destruction, increasing poverty, all reflect that we are currently living in, or at least headed towards, an Age of Apocalypse that we ourselves are creating.

If we continue in our current direction by acting as destructive Gods, we will eventually destroy ourselves and each others in destructive god-like fashion.

What you do unto the Earth, the Earth will do unto you. "Judgment Day" comes not from God, but from us - how we have lived our lives on this planet, our own actions & states of being.

LIBERATED- thanks for the quote by krauthammer-
it really puts the global warming issue in perspective- keep them coming-

Putting things is perspective:

To repeat a comment in the recent Washington Post by columnist Charles Krauthammer:

"It (the Sunni/Shiite butchery) infantilizes Arabs. It demonizes Americans. It willfully overlooks the plainest of facts: Iraq is their country. We midwifed their freedom. They chose civil war."

fern thanks for bringing that to our attention- you are totally right- we can express our collective opinion with our consumer choices too-
i imagine someone somewhere must have compiled a report card of some kind on corporate policies affecting the environment, would you happen to have any advice on how to find such info?
peace

I think it also behooves us to recognize when a corporation is doing the right thing whether from a secular or religious perspective. For example I just read:

Hewlett-Packard today announced that its redesigned print cartridge packaging for North America will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by an estimated 37 million pounds in 2007 - the equivalent of taking 3,600 cars off the road for one year...
http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/content/view/1713/31/

> As for more ordinary people like me, I'll continue to attempt to conserve resources wherever I can,

If in our personal lives we do what we can for our mother Earth, life will be transformed. And I don't think what we do needs to be dramatic. Buying the right kind of lightbulb today. Structuring our shopping runs to minimize gas usage tomorrow. Picking up a piece of litter the next day. Planting a flower the day after.

As Saint Francis said (Canticle of the Creatures):
Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.
...
Heavenly Father,
You gave Your servant Francis
great love for each of Your creatures.
Teach us to see Your design in all of creation.
We ask this in Jesus’ Name. Amen.

The alarm raised by international scientists isn't new (it's 15+ yrs old), so the setup for this question is factually incorrect. Yes, the environment should be a major priority for Christians: it will alleviate suffering, and it will give people who do not yet know Jesus less reason to refuse Him as they see Christians' love in caring for the environment.

Since Christians have different kinds of missions, I leave it to those with political standing (like Richard Cizik) to help push forward the government policies that will help mitigate climate change and other environmental challenges. As for more ordinary people like me, I'll continue to attempt to conserve resources wherever I can, but I personally place more priority relationship-building through Christ.

Also, while this is off-topic, I feel the need to express a different kind of Christian view from Concerned's. I don't expect people to agree with me, just to know that one can believe in the historicity of the Old and New Testaments despite the apparently gruesome passages.

Several reasons suggest that the apparently troublesome passages are not actually so. First, the laws given between Exodus and Deuteronomy, including the ones about killing nonbelievers, are not universal laws to humankind, but part of a unique covenant between Israel and God. In a narrow sense, Concerned is correct that NT supercedes OT, since the Old Covenant ended at the cross, when the curtain in the temple was torn. Also, this covenant was not forced on the Israelites, but they accepted the conditions.

As for the killing of nonbelievers in the promised land, the nonbelievers cannot easily be excused. Probably all of them were not like the modern atheists who exhibit generally moral behavior. They were in cultures that encouraged child sacrifice among other things. Moreover, if one believes in the exodus, then the people living in the promised land had plenty of warning (40+ years) about the power of Israel and its God. If one believes the OT, then there are examples of people who were wise enough to turn to God (in Joshua and Chronicles). None of this argument proves the veracity of the OT, but it suggests that believing the historical truth of OT does not necessarily lead to uncomfortable implications.

I cannot speak authoritatively about the Qur'an since I haven't read it. My sense is that the apparently militant passages are intended as general principles not just applying to a particular place of people, but to the entire world. I emphasize that I am willing to be corrected about this. However, if my intuition is correct (and that's a big "if"), then it shows that one doesn't have to "get around" the apparently militant passages in the OT to make Christianity seem reasonable, where as one must "get around" apparently militant passages in the Qur'an and compromise Islam somewhat to make it seem reasonable in these times.

I'm not going to defend this argument further by responding to comments (although I will read for my own edification); I just wanted to put an alternative Christian perspective out there that doesn't try to make Christianity more palatable by reducing the OT to myth status.

at the junk yard.
think tanks are being dismanteled,heaps and heaps and mountains of rusty rotten tanks ,tanks uppon tanks,some are lobesided,some are corroided and badly decayed,tanks and tanks of rotten human falsehood,bad cold phiposphy,false religion,rotten tanks of sin and oppression,rotten layers uppon layers of injustice ,fossiling of ignorance,hate seeping all the way,all are left behinde,all are leaking,all are foaming,all are ozing acid,all are toxic,all are tombstones of human false hood,human sins are major contributer to the global warming and global corruption.

Nafi et al,

Stop dodging the issue. Do you or do you not condemn the militant passages in the Koran. Yes or No?????

Concerned,

You wrote : "You may copy and circulate these questions to your friends whomever and whenever assuming they can read. Those that cannot apparently make good suicide fodder."

Sorry for taking so long to response to your last post.

I am illiterate, can't read, can't write in my own mother tongue even. I have had to get someone to read what you wrote and then, translate it for me (only God knows if the translations were correct and the nuances right), then gave my responses in my mother tongue, have it translated into English by another non-native speaker who learns English from a non-native speaker, and then to get someone to type it out here.

We were all reading "The Project for the New American Century" not the Qur'an, when it comes to the Middle East and Iraq. So, we must be reading the wrong Holy Book or Writ.

I am not grasping your question as to why Muslims are expected to clean up the mess the US created in Iraq and the Middle East by its policies, inteference, interventions, invasions and occupation when it ignored their concerns before charging in.

I also do not comprehend your questions on Sunnis and Shiites when I was made to understand that one can go to Wikipedia to read on it, and in English too. And to go to Iraq and ask the Sunnis and Shiites themselves. But I was told that Americans only go to the place called Green Zone in Iraq and never get out of that Valhalla.

And I was told by my translators and scribes/typists that you talk about the divine rights of a King Bush who got revelations from God to go to war and become the Decider in this world. Is he also the Messiah leading to Rapture some are waiting for?

PS Concerned, can't get back to your response on this. Have to get off and go to work now. Been lots of fun. Love your work:)

P.S. Sorry for the double post. I must have hit Post before I added my last sentence.

"Why bother reading anything in the OT, the NT supercedes it as per Jesus, Paul and Christianity"

I have a pretty good reason.

Because the validity of Christianity itself depends on the validity of the Old Testament and Judaism. The entire mechanism of this theology rotates around the OLD TESTAMENT account that Adam and Eve (symbolically or literally, take your pick) were insubordinate to God, that the price for their insubordination was expultion from the garden.

Pauline Christianity comes in and calls this insubordination "original sin" (a concept that curiously does not exist in any form of Judaism that I am familiar with), and that this "orginal sin" was hereditary and incurred damnation on all of humanity except through the brutal torture and execution of Jesus, God's son, also, strangely God himself.

In essence, God sacrificed himself to himself to save humanity from himself.

Christianity, at least in any recognizeable form, depends on the Old Testament for its theology.

You don't have to read it, but you should not pretend to be knowledgeable about Christianity if you have not.

"Why bother reading anything in the OT, the NT supercedes it as per Jesus, Paul and Christianity"

I have a pretty good reason.

Because the validity of Christianity itself depends on the validity of the Old Testament and Judaism. The entire mechanism of this theology rotates around the OLD TESTAMENT account that Adam and Eve (symbolically or literally, take your pick) were insubordinate to God, that the price for their insubordination was expultion from the garden.

Pauline Christianity comes in and calls this insubordination "original sin" (a concept that curiously does not exist in any form of Judaism that I am familiar with), and that this "orginal sin" was hereditary and incurred damnation on all of humanity except through the brutal torture and execution of Jesus, God's son, also, strangely God himself.

In essence, God sacrificed himself to himself to save humanity from himself.

Christianity depends on the Old Testament for its theology.

Read the Old Testament; then read the New Testament.

Is Yahweh anything like Jesus?

The validity of Christianity in any recognizeable form depends on an affirmative answer.

Yep carrot and stick. And education... Can't forget that...

"Is the Environment a Priority for People of Faith?"

If it isn't it should be! You know good stewardship and all that.

A. Hermit,

Why bother reading anything in the OT, the NT supercedes it as per Jesus, Paul and Christianity.

Concerned -

For that article on the conservative Jews and historicity of the Old testament, I suggest using this link:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

It has the full article, and at the end provides the link to the original 2002 NY Times article, now archived.

Nafi,

To reiterate:

The global Islamic community must also solve the Sunni-Shiite conflict before it ignites the globe in another world war. Could someone explain how this hatred got started? To me, to be fighting and killing each other over whose group has the rightful heir is shear insanity. Apparently these heirs were not riding chariots to Heaven and back so they were nothing special anyway. The Christian world finally rid itself of the divine right of kings and queens. Time for Islam to do the same!!!

Mother Earth cannot afford another world war. Share the answer posed above and below and get back to us.

I assume you agree the killing each other about the rightful heir to the prophet is shear insanity? You may copy and circulate these questions to your friends whomever and whenever assuming they can read. Those that cannot apparently make good suicide fodder.

Is the environment a priority for people of faith?

An excellent question, and precisely excellent because this question indicts all of us.

Lately I have been having an extraordinarily difficult time communicating to atheists, agnostics, modern pantheists, etc. that if the concept of God is removed and all the salvation promised there--and as far as the U.S. is concerned, the irrationalities and authoritarianisms of religion--this by no means results in modern liberalism, the democratic party, socialism, etc. unless of course we want to turn totally from the conceptual scheme born of modern science which is often directed against the religious.

Our modern scientific view with its positing of the human race as an isolated species in a Godless world--and of course grounded in an always increasing mathematization of existence--is not asking us for all our celebrations of freedom to simply reject religion (its irrationalities, authoritarianisms) for a hedonistic or socialistic lifestyle, it is asking us most of all to recognize ourselves as a species which must propogate itself down through the ages by pure intelligence alone or fail and all politics must be coordinated with these scientific facts.

Quite simply in the U.S. whether a person is Republican or Democratic we have a failure to really act on the scientific views put before us. Simply attacking the religious for irrationality and authoritarianism is the easy part. The hard part is coming to grips with being an isolated species in a Godless world which must take total responsibility for itself.--The hard part precisely because total responsibility once again, and probably more severely because of the clear stakes involved, drives us into considerations of morality and authoritarianism.

We quite simply are coming to the point where we have to consider human actions and political arrangements with great courage, and probably with more courage than at any time previously in human history. All our actions and political arrangements are coming down, and driven by the merciless facts of modern science, to the point where we simply have to ask what will be good for our species--and the individual for all his value will be subordinated clearly (more clearly than at any time in history) to an intense discussion of what is "good for the whole" (the species).

This is not to say the individual is not valuable--on the contrary. We will also be asking as never before what kinds of individuals we want to guarantee the human race survives in a Godless world...Essentially the question of the individual and the good of society--that age-old discussion--will only become more intense, more rigorously defined, and we will be far from Republican and Democratic party inanities.

Quite frankly I doubt the United States can tolerate this discussion. I find myself constantly having to explain the easiest simplicities of it to even the most intelligent people. People quite simply refuse to see what is before their very eyes. Religious people of course have their various paradigms, their various ways they believe the human race will preserve itself (their morality, their hopes in an afterlife, etc.--early forms of species and individual preservation in other words) but the big problem is the so-called intelligent people (atheists, agnostics, etc.).

The latter quite simply believe we should dispense with the authoritarianism and irrationalities of religion, and in place of such put "morality" (whatever that is--they never really define it) and scientific "improvements" (which usually means mere technological advance). Very rarely do we get anyone really contemplating the awfulness of the scientific perspective, really waking up at night and grasping what it means to be an isolated species in a Godless world.

Do I have to state that this means a contemplation of our actions as never before, that it calls for a truly heroic morality, that it means for all celebration of the individual (and we will get at true individuality, genius, by the genetic sciences) we have no choice but to subordinate ourselves for the good of the species and what that will be will be born again and again of the most intense and angry conversations which in the end will amount to still the facts?

That we each as individuals are nothing more than links in a chain which must guarantee the human race not only goes on but evolves, constantly improves on what it was...

What morality recognizes that today let alone political structure? The group of significance that can recognize this will quite simply be in the vanguard--and perhaps even be the savior of--the human race.

Tonio says:

"Deuteronomy doesn't explicitly call for the slaughter of entire nations of unbelievers."

Actually, Tonio, it does:

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:17

You might want to read Exodus, Numbers and Kings as well for more examples.

Hello, hello

As always, a place to deviate from topic. And I had agreed with Concerned on his/her stance on the environment. Pity. We could have join forces on that and then move on to other things. You know, getting to know one another, building trust and confidence and having a civil discouse. Only Concerned could have spoilt that goodwill and respect for coherence and common sense with subsequent nonsensical proposals.

For what's it worth Concerned, I'm still with you on your posting on the environment.

Nafi,
Having fun taunting Concerned with invitations to become a Muslim for the pleasure of pushing buttons? Unfortunately, like Victoria said, Concerned is not unique. But I know you are being sarcastic in saying that - singular minded eh :)

Concerned,

You are hilarious!

From suggesting a real wall, like the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China, and an intellectual Maginot Line.

Hey, those physical walls don't work. Neither are the methoporically walls of the mind. And suggesting imposing such physical and mental walls here?

Keep going. We like to print out postings by you, Canyon Shearer and Bgone and circulate them around as - See, these people can be really weird and dogmatic, whether they believe in God or not.

Keep going and going like the Duracell battery.

A Hermit, thanks for the Deuteronomy quote. I still think there's a distinction between the Bible and the Qu'ran on this issue, since Deuteronomy doesn't explicitly call for the slaughter of entire nations of unbelievers. But in the end, that distinction may not be relevant.

Yes indeed, the OT is full of some very gruesome stuff but that was all correctected with the NT. And even Judaism as I noted before is coming around to the correct thinking that the OT is mostly myth. e.g.

From: What 1.5 Million Conservative and Their Rabbis Believe. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp

"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation. "

What the global Islamic community needs is a militant- free New Koran recognizing the problems with the old one i.e 1. mythical Abraham and 2. the prophet was illiterate and therefore not able to know what was really being written in the Koran.

The global Islamic community must also solve the Sunni-Shiite conflict before they ignite the globe in another world war. Could someone explain how this hatred got started? To me, to be fighting and killing each other over whose group has the rightful heir is shear insanity. Apparently these heirs were not riding chariots to Heaven and back so they were nothing special. The Christian world finally rid itself of the divine right of kings and queens. Time for Islam to do the same!!!

In Taoism to care and treat the world well is to care for yourself.

The two are linked, if we don't help heal the damage humanity has done to the planet, then our bodies, our spirit and our lives will take on that damage directly.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

Greg-

"Wiccan, good point about the roof. Trick is to make it appealing to the contractors and home buyers etc... You could force it or you could offer incentives. The old cliche about catching more flies with honey..."

Actually, it would probably take a carrot and stick approach. The stick: Do it or we charge you a carbon tax; the carrot: show the tenants of these roof garden buildings what they could save in energy (heating and cooling) costs, then it would reinforce itself. Everyone likes to save money.

Tonio (responding to Concerned Christian) says:

Concerned, my own reading of the Bible has shown the same thing. There are many passages that suggest that non-believers deserve to die or that God welcomes the deaths of non-believers, such as Joshua and his followers committing genocide at Jericho. While that is certainly morally reprehensible, it doesn't compare to actually ordering believers to kill non-believers.

-----------

How about this one:

Deuteronomy 13:6-9

6"If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,

7of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),

8you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.

9"But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

---------

"you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death" sounds pretty explicitly like an order to kill, doesn't it?

Regards

A Hermit

PS: I realize this is off topic, but I'm not the one who brought it up...

Unbalanced:

Wow, I guess that disqualifies all of my Shakespeare-derived quotes as well? Seems a shame, you know how dear he is to atheists. Come to think of it, you just nullified the collective thought of anyone who ever wrote fiction, and all in one motion. Powerful indeed!

Where other species arrive on planet earth with an inherent knowledge of nutritional needs and behavior; humanity tediously moves toward understanding. A direction which it would seem should be foremost in our educational focus because nothing matters more to our emotional and physical well-being.

We need physical images to form our mind; and physical elements to maintain body function. It seems to me, this is it! Our world! What seems overlooked is where we realize the human body and planet earth are our 'life-support' machines; personal consciousness---or 'self' is the LIFE of the body,--of our world!

From within personal consciousness the necessary physical and behavioral principles for well-being have arrived; as from here, were they directed away from oppression, toward common welfare.

It now seems evident the behavior responsible for most of the pathology of body and environment is oppression. As we came together in thought, through what seems a 'natural social conscience', the already existent knowledge needed to provide comfort, and physical existence came into view.

That this happened as we prayed; leads me to consider God was the navigator. Guiding us to the knowledge necessary to fix a defective body and environment. So, yes, I feel ecology should be respected by religions. Because to create "heaven on earth" seems the only alternative to extinction.

http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2007/01/jesus_never_exi.html

CCTL, Go down about halfway so you get the other side of the OT is wrong view. It's far to big to copy and paste into here.

Wiccan, good point about the roof. Trick is to make it appealing to the contractors and home buyers etc... You could force it or you could offer incentives. The old cliche about catching more flies with honey...

Victoria wrote: ---are these questions just getting stupider?---

Yes they are. When I read the question I looked at the two "journalists" pictures at the top of the web page, smiling, and wondered just how much time and effort they put into these questions. I imagine its very little, probably something thought up in the shower or over a three martini lunch at the Old Ebbit Grill.

Always a hoot to witness myth-loving atheists.

There's no more evidence that "Chief Seattle" spoke the words attributed to him above than there is for any pronouncement of Jesus.

Indeed, the mythological "Chief Seattle" character, though based on an historical figure, sprang from the imagination of a screenwriter for the Radio and Television Commission of (ironically) the Southern Baptist Convention, in a film on ecology of the early 1970s.

Of course, myths are an important medium for communicating truth, even for atheists.

Might also consider this one:

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated says:

"I see no passages in the OT and NT that demands the killing of non-believers"

I dunno; if I were Wiccan this would make me nervous:

Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

That's just one off the top of my head; there are other examples, but I'd have to go look for the chapter and verse.

Of course, one could accuse me of cherry-picking scripture to find the bad stuff and taking it out of context, but isn't that exactly what you're doing to the Muslims?

Regards

A Hermit

Here is one of my personal favorites:

"But why should I mourn at the untimely fate of my people? Tribe follows tribe, and nation follows nation, like the waves of the sea. It is the order of nature, and regret is useless. Your time of decay may be distant, but it will surely come, for even the White Man whose God walked and talked with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We will see." (Chief Seattle)

thanks for keeping us on track wiccan-

liberated and nafi remind me of a movie i once watched- amadeus- about mozart-

in the movie the poofy and silly king when asked to comment on mozarts latest opera replied "there are too many notes" and mozart replied to him, "which notes would you have me remove?"

nafi- i would contend that liberated is sadly not unique at all in his bigotry-

Here's something that might help. Let's tick off the conservatives like Cal Thomas and make it required for all new commercial and governmental construction.

http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/pview.php?id=21

If Chicago can do it, why not the rest of us?

Concerned, thanks for the link. I suspect that most Christians aren't aware of what Conservative Judaism teaches. My post addressed the literal words of scripture, as opposed to the teachings of various Christian denominations. Although most Christians don't follow a strict literal "Word of God" reading of the Bible, the ones who do tend to be vocal and influential. And even the "Inspired by God" interpretation seems to contradict the idea of reading scripture allegorically or metaphorically. Plus, it may not occur to a casual Bible reader to use a metaphorical or allegorical approach.

Tonio,

From: What 1.5 Million Conservative and Their Rabbis Believe. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp

"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation. "

"Also, I see no passages in the OT and NT that demands the killing of non-believers."

Concerned, my own reading of the Bible has shown the same thing. There are many passages that suggest that non-believers deserve to die or that God welcomes the deaths of non-believers, such as Joshua and his followers committing genocide at Jericho. While that is certainly morally reprehensible, it doesn't compare to actually ordering believers to kill non-believers.

NAFI,

The "ball" to negating the OT and NT is rolling. Millions of Jews and Christians no longer believe in their literal meaning. The same cannot be said for the Koran and Muslims. You and your friends are good examples of this.

Also, I see no passages in the OT and NT that demands the killing of non-believers. Please educate us if there is.

Simply admit that the militant aspects of the Koran are wrong.

Until you do, please stay away from my family and me. The followers of any religion that promote suicide bombings and the killing of non-believers should be isolated behind walls. Please note the walls are being built both physically and mentally.

Concerned,

You are unique.

Has the Orthodox Jews agreed? Has the Hasidic Jews agreed? Has the Catholic Church agreed? Has the Greek Orthodox Church agreed? Has the Hindus agreed to do away with whole of the Bhagavad Gita?

I'm beginning to love you as much as my friend and colleague, Jihadist do. We need you as much as we need Canyon Shearer and BGone. I've read your other postings here. Same old same old. But keep at it anyway.

Wish Canyon Shearer is here. He makes many points about lungfish and Scottish thistle and American flower basket. In another context of course.

Sure you don't want to be a Muslim? Could be a whole new experience and to work from within to get those Qur'anic passages you don't like deleted, and to get the signatures of all 1.3 billion Muslims, including mine of course. But I have no idea how long it will take to convince some 1.3 bilion Muslims to agree on that. Surely you don't want us to get into another war on "to delete" or "not to delete". Imagine what that war would do to the world with all kinds of environmentally destructive bombs.

Well, I've indulged you enough already.

g.warming is a morality issue.
how to pluck ignorance from your heart?how to be just with your self befor you even be just to the environment?how to be gracefull and respectfull?how to cure greedness?how to cure lustness?how to cure the hardness of the heart?how to put life in dead heart?how to be in line with the environment?
yes by all means,people of faith have priority here,carriers of the truth are the leaders among mankind,abraham is the father of the leaders,moses is a leader,jesus son of mary is a leader,muhamed the illiterate arabian is the last and chief of all the leaders,.
leaders of the truth are all from one lineage and one heritage,their heritage is traced all the way to the creator lord,who he created the leaders and leades and the environment.
following the lead of the honorable leaders for mankind is the only way to clean the heart of the humanity and consequencely the environment.
those who into( recycling and refination) ,need to establish it first in their heart.
clean and recycle not damge and recycle.

To tell the truth I hate the environment. First of all, it's full of bugs. Second, it's usually either too hot or too cold, rarely just right.

"We need to return to the understanding Native Americans had about the sacredness of the Earth."

Gag.

Nafi Saghem,

You noted: "If we get those passages out from the Qur'an, can you get it out of other Holy Texts too, from the Old Testament to the New Testament to the Bhagavad Gita?

This is negotiations. You give. We give. Quid pro quo. And there be peace on earth."

No problem. Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already declared most of the OT to be mythical. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp

JD Crossan, a NT exegete, and an On Faith panel member, has concluded after extensive review (see his book, The Historical Jesus), that 67% of the NT was not said or done by Jesus. i.e. not the word or actions of the Christ. ihttp://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

Now please sign the following statement: "The militant aspects of the Koran should be deleted. The Prophet was illiterate (as per Karen Armstrong another On Faith panelist) and was unable to proof-read the Koran. The scribes and the later embellishers of the Koran added passages to fit their militant ways. This has caused and still causes great misery in the world."

Interesting points Fern and Pheadrus.

Many aboriginal or indigenous tribes that are hunters and gatherers have no concept of land ownership. The move with the seasons or animals migrating. There is practically no damage done to the environment by the hunting and gathering tribes.

The tribes also has great respect for nature and some, in Southeast Asia and the Pacific island states, would seek permission from trees before passing by to pass by. There is great sacredness and spituality attached to nature and the elements.

It is a tragedy that logging and development, and the introduction of individual and state land ownership destroyed not only their way of life, but degraded the environment and reduce wild-life species and populations.

Perhaps we need to learn from aboriginal tribes, who are mostly animists, to respect nature.

"One does not sell the land upon which the people walk." ( Crazy Horse.)

This topic reminds me of some recent study I've done on Native American Spirituality. For example:

"With this holy pipe," [White Buffalo Woman] said, "you will walk like a living prayer. With your feet resting upon the earth and the pipestem reaching into the sky, your body forms a living bridge between the Sacred Beneath and the Sacred Above. Wakan Tanka smiles upon us, because now we are as one: earth, sky, all living things, the two legged, the four­legged, the winged ones, the trees, the grasses. Together with the people, they are all related, one family. The pipe holds them all together."
http://www.merceronline.com/Native/native05.htm

We need to return to the understanding Native Americans had about the sacredness of the Earth.

Concerned,

Convert to Islam and be fully liberated. I really don't you to go to Hell. Repent or be damned!!!

If we get those passages out from the Qur'an, can you get it out of other Holy Texts too, from the Old Testament to the New Testament to the Bhagavad Gita?

This is negotiations. You give. We give. Quid pro quo. And there be peace on earth.

Victoria and Jihadist (aka Crusader),

We are still waiting for your condemnation of the militant paragraphs of the Koran.

Please affirm the following: "The militant aspects of the Koran should be deleted. The Prophet was illiterate and was unable to proof-read the Koran. The scribes and the later embellishers of the Koran added passages to fit their militant ways. This has caused and still causes great misery in the world."

Simply answer "I agree". Your "wishy-wash" of Islam is very disturbing when we at war with Islamic terrorists who follow the militant dictates of the Koran.

Yes, this concern should be a major priority for people of faith. But it should also be a major priority for people not of faith. Both benefit significantly, although they may choose to help for different reasons.

Jihadist my friend,

Even the redwood begins with a seed. Before any of those things (consumerism etc) existed there was the idea of "dominion." Man's "apartness" from all else is the delusion from which we must return to sanity. Nothing is unconnected, right Norrie?

As for Kyoto, I can vote, write letters, and donate money. I do all three, although I could do more, admittedly.

I'm with you on this one.

Pheadrus my friend,

Since you took on a religious tack and blame religion:)

Nahh, the source of the problem is excessive consumerism, materialism and capitalism.

We need cars, we need DVDs, we have to change them every two to three years for new models.

We need much water not to drink, but for our swimming pools, suanas, golf courses and trimmed lawns . We don't want to wear polyester, we want wool and silk and cotton.

And silkworms has to die. And trees be killed, er, chopped for sheep raising or cotton cultivation.

Shall I go on like a demented tree hugger?

Oh for heaven's sake Pheadrus, do something to get your government to sign the Kyoto Protocols. Maldives, Nauru, Tuvalu, Kiribati etc, very small islands in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, will be gone due to global warming and rising sea level in the next 50 to 100 years, so some scientists claim.

Out of here for real world, life and work for now. Have fun Pheadrus :)

The source of the problem:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis: 1:28.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

I completely agree with you too. And expecially on business trips. These time zone adjustments is making me cranky, but I need to do business trips in my line of business.

How can we get the US to sign the Kyoto Protocols? And Australia too among others who still don't?

regards

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

I completely agree with you too. And expecially on business trips. These time zone adjustments is making me cranky, but I need to do business trips in my line of business.

How can we get the US to sign the Kyoto Protocols? And Australia too among others who still don't?

regards

no youre right wiccan- i was sorry when i wrote it but gaby is right- it seems theyve run out of compelling topics- im a tree hugger from way back- im so queer i kept a 'litter diary' when i was a kid-(it was a school i went to- it stayed empty but now that i think about it- who would write in it anyway? i have stated many times that i whish i could give people tickets for littering and am a litter nazi im not kidding- im going to get shot one day- i go up and tell people when i see them throw garbage out of a car please dont litter and ive never had a really negative reaction but i should watch it i may get shot-

i used to be able to recycle everything- plastic paper metal- and i had a 'compost machine' (it was like an upside down garbage can with a hole at the bottom) and composted everything and i loved living like that- in northern california at the supermarkets they have big bins for every substance you can think of-
im in new york now and have curbside but in chicago there was no recycling at all-

LIBERATED IM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOU!!!

recycling starts with product choice-
i am still guilty of buying the tile cleaner with sulfamic acid in it-

o to answer the question- of course we are responsible for the planet= people of faith should be MORE not less cognizant of this-

i cant imagine who they thought would argue for why we should not take care of the planet...

Concerned,

I agree wholeheartedly! Just though my post was getting a little too long and didn't want to write a book like some others on these threads (or is that threats?) ;)

"Reduce" is another subject where I think Americans could do a lot better. We use energy, particularly non-renewable energy, in vast amounts. Again, we need a lot more education.

"Reuse" is where I see a snag. Compared with other highly industrialized nations, our good leave something to be desired and that is longevity. Newer refrigerators, washers, dryers, dishwashers, lawnmowers, etc. have a limited life span. Didn't used to be that way. In most cases it is more expensive to fix it than to replace it. Here is where quality needs to be addressed rather than quantity. I would be willing to spend a couple of hundred dollars more for a washer that last me 10 years, rather than have a cheaper initial investment, but need to replace it every 5 years.

Wiccan,

I agree. It was just my first knee-jerk reaction. After thinking about it for a while, and reading some of the comments, it is appropriate.

Gaby,

It is not just about Recycling. It is also about the other two R's, Reduce and Reuse.

From: http://www.epa.gov/msw/reduce.htm

"Reduce the amount and toxicity of trash you discard.

Reuse containers and products; repair what is broken or give it to someone who can repair it.

Recycle as much as possible, which includes buying products with recycled content."

Recycling by the way is alive in well in high population areas. We recycle paper, plastic and metal. Every neighbor joins in. In our area, you don't even have to separate the items anymore.

Judging from prior remarks made by the theists, I would expect that any topic that started with the words, "International scientists have.." would be a signal for the theists to ridicule the basis of the question, out of habit if nothing else. Then again, maybe we've gotten to the point where even the most-ardent Xian fundamentalist must admit to global warming (excuse me for a second...I just got an e-mail from some Congresscritter named James Inhofe...).

Here's a better question that may be more in keeping with the reason for On Faith:

"If you are a theist who believes international scientists when they warn of global warming (ie: a theist who depends on science every day of their lives, from insuring the purity of your food, to the science that developed the fuel you put in your car to the science-developed computer you use every day), then why do you ignore or disavow the findings of science when the subject is evolution?"

To ":"

How is saving the entire planet and all its people from global warming "elitist and racist"? How can you say that the scientists who studied and documented global warming are "overprivleged people in rich ountries"? With equal logic you could dismiss medicine as elitist and racist. There is no basis to your position. Would you care to tell us why you really believe as you do?

To Doug:

Here is a nice confirmation of your correct point that a lot of global warming deniers base their beliefs on religion. But, the religious opposition is broader than just the "let's hurry up and get to the end of the world" crowd.

Many global warming deniers, when you press them, believe that God gave Man the planet to do with as Man sees fit. The existence of global warming denies that right and suggests tht God puts nasty unstated conditions on his gifts, similar to every deal with Satan. Therefore, there can be no global warmning. This reasoning is nuts, but they believe it.

Gaby-

I hadn't thought of that. Victoria, I did not mean to offend you, and I am truly sorry if I did.

I do think this is an appropriate subject for On Faith, especially since some believers do think they can "do whatever the hell they want with the earth, like the world is a disposable napkin", like Tonio said.

Absolutely not. Environmentalism is an elitist and racist ideology dreamed up by overprivileged people in rich countries. The priority for people of faith is to foster human development in order to ensure that every member of the human family reaches her or his full potential. To the extent that environmentalism is contrary to that goal it must be challenged and defeated.

Wiccan,

I don't think that is what Victoria meant. She is looking for discussion on faith, not on global warming.

I thought the subject was a little odd myself. Why ask if environmental care should be a priority for people of faith?

As a matter of fact, in my opinion all human creatures should ensure the earth is safe. Not only people of faith.

Americans, in particular, are a throw away society. Many things are not made to last, the fast food industry is a major source of litter, and people in general have a nonchalant attitude about the environment.

Recycling is not the way of life in America. I grew up in Germany and still travel there frequently. They are mandated to recycle everything from paper to glassware. And people there have no problem following through with it. Of course, when you have a country with the approximate landmass of the state of Montana and cram 80 million people into it, it doesnt' leave many alternatives.

When I lived in Maryland we hadd a pretty good recycling program. The county? provided us with different colored plastic containers, one for tin, one for aluminum, and one for glass. They also picked up old newspapers. The containers were emptied once a week.

I now live in Montana. Here recycling is almost non-existing. The excuse is that we simply don't have the population to make recycling economic. There is one recycling plant I know of in my city, however, they do not pick up. You have to drive there and all they accept is aluminum and scrap metal, such as old washers and dryers, etc.

I think that governments will not be able to have a big effect on global warming other than regulating some of the major industries. And as long as the almighty dollar rules, those industries will do the very minimum to comply.

We need to educate people globally and make them want to do their fair share to keep the environment safe.

More than most other issues, environmental issues illustrate the dangers inherent in religious literalism.

Doug makes an excellent point about the horror of treating the end of the world as a good thing. From my reading, eschatology draws not only from Revelation but also from Genesis 1:26, which is interpreted to mean that humans can do whatever the hell they want with the earth, like the world is a disposable napkin.

I've noticed that many religious extremists equate environmentalism with paganism. Some of them accuse the movement of being a stalking horse for Earth-mother worship. The less paranoid ones see a conflict between environmentalism and literalist doctrine.

Victoria-

I am suprised by your comment. Why do you think this is a stupid question? The other two sons of Abraham are told to be good stewards of the earth; doesn't Islam do the same? Some so-called Christians say that God gave man dominion over the earth, and they will use her as they see fit (kind of a "It's mine; I'll break it if I want to" attitude). I'd be really surprised if that's your attitude too.

I come from a different perspective; to me, the Earth is my mother.

Concerned-

Good ideas. My son says we should plant trees on top of all office buildings, like they do in Chicago.

Citation for my post above that 40% of Americans think the world will end with a supernatural event and 40% (not necessarily the same people) think it will end in their lifetimes:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/173/story_17395_1.html

God gave us many gifts to include Mother Earth. We can protect Her by following the three R's, Reduce, Reuse and Recycle.

We can also reduce the natural causes of carbon dioxide generation, i.e. forest fires and the termites in Africa.

Using God's gift of reason: Big city office buildings require huge amounts of energy to heat and staff with fossil fuels being burned to accomplish most of this. Replace office buildings with in-home offices and corporate intranets for running businesses. e.g.'s Replace Wall Street and the NYSE as it exists today with all trading being done by computer. Maximize teleconferencing, reduce business trips.

are these questions just getting stupider?

The worrisome thing is how many people think this isn't a concern because the Apocalypse is near.

We need to take Jehova's Witnesses and the like a lot more seriously, because if enough people become convinced these are the End Times, the more likely the prophesy will self-fulfill.