Readers’ Responses to Our Question (618)

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"the Palestinian issue will never die"

The word Palestinian has changed in meaning. It may change again. The issue comes from the last half of the last century and will not last to the last half of this century.

The 1st Century bit is a fantasy as are many elements in the late 20th Century "Palestinian" Story.

In the year 53b.c. these comments were heard on the streets of Jerusalem...
"so much hurt, so much pain, so many versions of the same story.. they hit us .. we hit them...
We fight to the death for a meager piece of land.. dirt.. sand.. we will not give it up and neither will they..."

Today is 2007.. and these sharp whispers still apply today.. the Palestinian issue will never die.. never. Its in our minds, our blood.. our heritage.. and our checkbooks... is this civilization??
who are the Barbarians..??

In the year 53b.c. these comments were heard on the streets of Jerusalem...
"so much hurt, so much pain, so many versions of the same story.. they hit us .. we hit them...
We fight to the death for a meager piece of land.. dirt.. sand.. we will not give it up and neither will they..."

Today is 2007.. and these sharp whispers still apply today.. the Palestinian issue will never die.. never. Its in our minds, our blood.. our heritage.. and our checkbooks... is this civilization??
who are the Barbarians..??

m742k

m742k

I am a Jew and I do not give Israel a free pass to do whatever it wants in the world.

I share a religion with the Israelis but I share something else as well - humanity. We're all human, we all have the capacity to make mistakes, including mistakes in the treatment of other humans.

I support Israel's right to defend itself from whatever small extremist minority wants to destroy it, but I have to wonder how effective its recent tactics have been, both militarily and in public relations terms.

It's natural to side with one's own people, to give them the benefit of the doubt. There used to be millions of Native Americans on the North American contintent. Now there aren't. Most Americans don't talk or indeed even think about this. How silly, to think that our people would do that! How silly to think that our people, our government commited.... genocide?

We all have good and bad in us. Pride in who we are is good, but we must not let it blind us to the potential for mistakes that resides in all people, even our own.

Well, I come back for a peak and the "same old same old" is still rampant.
Anonymous makes a good point. As i've said repeatedly, the fences and checkpoints would come down if the violence toward Israel would cease.

If a Hezbollah soldier were wounded and caught by Israelis, he would be treated medically to try and save his life. Turn the tables and the Israeli soldier would be killed and paraded as a prize.

Until the Arab moderates tamp down the forces of Hamas and Hezzbollah, there is no reason for Israel to let down it's guard.

And the U.S. should increase it's funding to help Israel prevail over these barbarians whose leaders use hatred of Israel to innoculate the masses against their utter incompetence and inability to create a viable economic and social model.

The sad truth of it all, if Hamas and Hezbolah were to disarm there would be peace but if the Israeli nation were to disarm there would be no Israel. That's the truth... I see nothing wrong with Israel defending itself do you?

This is from the Jews Against Zionism site.

"The leading commentators, such as Yefe Toiar [on the Midrash Rabba Shir HaShirim 2:7], explain that from the Midrash [Midrash Rabba Shir HaShirim 2:7] seems to be that even without rebellion and with permission from the nations, massive emigration and establishing a state is strictly forbidden, until the Messianic era comes, when all humanity will live in brotherhood and peace, serving the One and Only G-D. Almost all the Midrash is full with the idea that no redemption whatsoever will be possible until the coming of the Messiah and we don't know to be any dispute in the Midrash about this point."

I have the Soncino Press edition of Midrash Rabba Shir HaShirim 2:7 in front of me.

Rabbi Oshaia said the Holy One said wait for me and I will make you like the heavenly host.

Rabbi Judan in the name of Rabbi Meier said the Holy One said if you observe my oath I will make you like the heavenly host but if not I will make you like the lower host. [Like men. - Perhaps that happened after the Bar Kochba revolt which is mentioned as the third example of Israel defying the Holy One. Perhaps it happened earlier. Two revolts are mentioned before the Bar Kochba revolt.]

Rabbi Jose the son of Rabbi Hanina said there are two adjurations: one addressed to Israel to not rebel against the nations and one to the nations not to make their yoke too heavy on Israel as that would cause the end to come before it was due. {That could be viewed as what has happened and the Arabs could be viewed as having played a role in that since Baghdad is the site of the greatest Talmudic Academy and Jews were not allowed access to the holiest site in Judaism.]

Rabbi Chelbo said four adjurations are mentioned here:

1. Israel should not rebel against the governments.

2. Israel should not seek to hasten the end of times.

3. Israel should not reveal their mysteries to the other nations.

4. Israel should not attempt to return from the Diaspora until the Messiah has come. [That is construed by some Orthodox Jews to forbid the establishment of the modern state of Israel. However today as then most Jews are in the Diaspora.]

Rabbi Berekiah said when the Attribute of Justice shall please of itself the deliverance [of all human beings from slavery] will come.

Victoria,

I have said several times that it is odd you view what you are writing to me as discussion. If you and all the people you know have never even once encountered a Pro Israel Jew who is reasonable about it, how could I be different? And how can you have a discussion with someone you view as wholly unreasonable?

Now let us think about your website's explanations of the Talmud. I have pointed out that the site is flat out wrong about several things:

1. The words were not spoken by the person the site says spoke them.

2. They are not oaths for the Jewish people. There is no way the Jewish people can take an oath about what non Jews will do.

3. The principle established is not that Jews will not go to Israel as there was a Talmudic Academy in Jerusalem at the time.

4. The wall means the Jews are not to move en masse to Israel and they have not done so. Most Jews do not live in Israel and they do not have their bags packed.

The scriptural texts cited in the Talmud include the Song of Songs. Most people do not understand the Jewish allegorical understanding of that text.

I do not see how you infer from what I have written that I do not understand Jewish tradition. I own and have studied all the major commentaries on the Torah. I lead a Torah discussion group. I think I have also shown some understanding of Islam.

Now your view that my words are hostile while yours are those of a patient preson trying to understand do not match my sense of what words mean and how they are used. And I would be pretty surprised if my views on that differed from those of most people in LA and New York.

I was raised as a Jew before I found the true
spiritual road, but that is neither here nore
there.
Israel made many mistakes dealing with the
Palestinians, instead of knocking the homes
of terrorist's relatives they should have
been assisting in the financial well being
of the Palestinian people.
The surrounding Arab nations should have and
still can help the Palestinians create a viable
economy.
The citizens of Israel should have learnt a
lesson as per how hatred diminishes the hater
and emboldens the hated.
This is a true example as per why organized
religion should be abolished.

you leap to mountainous conclusions with the tiniest grain of information dave-

now, as to the talmudic info provided-
i can only assume you are not rally familiar with the great commentators.

ill post some for you as you must realize that the talmud is commentary on the torah
why not start at the beginning and go to the source then build outward?

as you didnt comment i can only assume my effort to present the rabbi-s interview was wasted.

also, as you insulted me unnecessarily, (and not the first time) and dont have the manners to address that (also not the first time) im thinking i am a fool to continue to discuss anything with someone who shows no respect.

Victoria,

First, I showed you what the Talmud says. So it is not I who is ignorant about what you call the three oaths.

Second, it is ignorant to think no Jew who supports Israel is reasonable about Israel.

I am not sure how hard a person is trying when they can not learn what Jews think after living in LA and NYC.

tonight there is a new series starting on PBS called america at a crossroads- it deals with muslims in america dealing with post 911 misapprehensions about islam
tonights subject is the formation of al qaeda and muslim extremists

i recommend it- learning is the best thing we can do- knowledge tends to wipe out old angers and prejudices

when we see each other as people and not 'others' we learn to be compassionate towards those whose views are different than our.

this is what i was hoping to establish and learn on this forum

here dave- look at this rabbi speaking-

right this minute im watching a pbs special about jewish persecution in nazi germany.

its all an effort to learn and understand

by the way dave-what efforts have YOU made to learn ANYTHING about the palestinians, or your muslim neighbors?

when you disagree with a persons politics you respond with angry insults, but will brook not the slightest critcism

what is the point of trying to be reasonable?

here, learn soemthing about your ownpeople and what they think

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/mediaclips/DombInterview.cfm?v=1QfgvDXsDds

what is the purpose of you saying this to me?

"And you do not view that as showing ignorance due to an inability to listen and learn?"

no dave- as ive indicated, im actively trying to find views that are reasonable.

how is that an inability to learn?
or worse ignorance?

why would you call someone names who is trying to learn?
wouldnt it be better if you offered some rational thoughts on the subject?

as for the 3 oaths- im not especially surprised you are nto aware of them, as youve shown no aptitude here for scriptural discussion.

so you insult one who actually tries to learn,
how can you expect anyone to work harder at finding an answer to understand your viewpoint,
when you wont bother to do anything to substantiate it.

but dont cry about anti-semitism every other post when you insult those who are open to dialogue and ask questions specifically TO LEARN
you shouldnt call me ignorant

thats just mean- it doesnt hide the fact that youve offered no reasons yourself

Victoria,

"no dave- i havent found any jewish people with a reasonable opinion about israel."

Except those who oppose Israel?

You have lived in LA and are in NYC and that is so?

How about the folks you know who share your views? Are they in the same place?

And you do not view that as showing ignorance due to an inability to listen and learn?

This was referred to several times a while back. I just got around to checking it out with the Talmud.

"What are these three oaths? One that Israel not “ascend the wall” [Rashi: together, by force]: one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.
Bab. Talmud Ketubot 111a."

That is on several anti Israel sites. And its stupidity is oustanding. The debate in Babylon (Baghdad) was when there were Talmudic academies in Jerusalem and Baghdad. The issue was whether Jews in Israel should go to Babylon and Jews in Babylon go to Israel. The context is choosing between the academies. The recommendation was that Jews in Israel should stay in Israel and Jews in Babylon should stay in Babylon.

Per the Soncino edition.

The three adjurations were given by Rabbi Jose son of Rabbi Hanina.

1. Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall.

2. Israel shall not rebel against the nations of the world.

3. God adjured the idolaters that they shall not oppress Israel too much.

That matches what the site says.

1. The children of Israel have not gone to Israel all together.

2. This is why Jews follow the laws of the nations they are in as long as they do not offend against God. That is the same God Christians and Mulsims worship as revealed in texts which they view as holy.

3. This is why the Arabs are in the mess they are in now.

After 1000 CE, rabbis have made various interpretations of that to address issues in the Diaspora. The mess with Sabbatai Zvi made rabbis very concerned about Jews taking up and moving to Israel on the advice of a would be Messiah. That has not happened. However there are Orthodox Jews who oppose the state of Israel on that basis.

Note that these are adjurations not oaths. And the third is to the nations not to the Jews. Jews have no control over whether the nations follow it. Clearly Jews are trying as hard as they can to convince the nations to follow it.

well, i dont like accusations dave, and try to keep away from them.

i found this statement that you made very biased and slanted and unfair-

"That does not mean each side is exactly equal in the above. Jews can freely discuss all kinds of things with little or no violence. Palestinians can not."

no dave- i havent found any jewish people with a reasonable opinion about israel.

like logical reasons that are apparent.

it always seems to be precluded by certain assumptions that non-jews dont hold.

if you know any good links id appreciate it.

i dont consider financial or military success to be indicators of any moral imperative.

i really am trying to understand- last night i watched a documentary dvd called protocols of zion by marc levin.

i was hoping for some edification, but the second half degenrated into pure muslim bashing and 911, and singing the star spangled banner at ground zero and whatever message there was to it, ended up pointing fingers and showing muslims like crazy maniacs.
it was a disappointment, but not unexpected.

if you have sources that are objective and present a clear statement without resorting to denigrating anyone- id be happy to see it.

dave we have women in black here every wednesday, and there are jewish women as well- but there arent any real israel love it or leave it types.

Victoria,

I thought you called me a bigot. Did I misunderstand you?

And living in NYC you can find no reasonable supporter of Israel? Or do I misunderstand you about that?

dave- THAT IS AN EXCERPT FROM YOUR POST!

YOU were the one doing the name calling!!!!!

Victoria,

That seems to be the whole basis for the reasoning many people use against Israel. Ignore the facts and pretend Palestinians are Jews and Jews are Nazis. The key is that you do not care that what you say does not fit the facts.

There is no logical way to deal with that kind of argument and name calling. So call people all of the names you like, ignore the facts, and imagine you and others like you are making the world a more peaceful place. I do not seek empty satisfaction such as that.

Victoria,

That seems to be the whole basis for the reasoning many people use against Israel. Ignore the facts and pretend Palestinians are Jews and Jews are Nazis. The key is that you do not care that what you say does not fit the facts.

There is no logical way to deal with that kind of argument and name calling. So call people all of the names you like, ignore the facts, and imagine you and others like you are making the world a more peaceful place. I do not to seek empty satisfaction such as that.

dave- its pretty clear what i did, indoctrinating people was not the issue-

that was your post, i just reversed the names so you could feel how truly bigoted a thing it is to claim.

as long as you keep thinking in such prejudiced extremes- how is it possible for you to be credible?

Victoria,

That is the kind of thinking that leads me to think folks like you are out to indoctrinate not discuss. You simply ignore facts. Where are Jews violently contesting things among themselves? And do you need me to help you find cases where Palestinians are? And how many Palestinians For Israel groups are there? Is it really true that no Palestinians anywhere can see Israel's side of things? And if so, what does it say about their readiness for true dialog?

dave - its statements like this that are so contrary to objectivity-

"That does not mean each side is exactly equal in the above. Palestinians can freely discuss all kinds of things with little or no violence. Jews can not."

would you agree that is a bigoted and extreme generalization of jews?

"That does not mean each side is exactly equal in the above. Jews can freely discuss all kinds of things with little or no violence. Palestinians can not."

its just as bigoted this way dave (which is what you wrote)

A reflexive there you go again being defensive and aggressive will not help the situation.

The interesting thing is that this is two way:

Someone talks about 15 million people controlling the world or Israel being racist and another person says that is anti-semitic. The person saying that "truth" about Jews and Israel dismisses the statement about anti-semitism as defensive and aggressive. That of course is no answer. So the person trying to make a point about anti-semitism dismisses the person attacking Israel as defensive and aggressive.

After endless repetitions of that, no one is any less ignorant than they were. This matter is handled by violence because there is massive ignorance and an aversion to carefully pursuing details and weighing probabilities that various allegations are correct. There is also an assumption by both sides that you can not trust the other side's sources of information.

There is much mutuality in these back and forth Pro Anti exchanges:

People on both sides are sure they are right.

[I am referring to many of the most active and energetic exponents. People like Dershowitz and Carter.]

People on both sides are sure their opponents are ignorant and thereby bigoted.

People on both sides endlessly repeat things from their side's collection of arguments.

People on both sides are sure they know what is going on in each other's heads.

That does not mean each side is exactly equal in the above. Jews can freely discuss all kinds of things with little or no violence. Palestinians can not. Free discussion advances truth and violence does not. So contrary to what folks like Carter think, the folks who agree with him reason less well and have less accurate information overall than the folks he says are ignorant. There is however still abundant ignorance.

One of the things that amazes me about Palestinians and their supporters is what they say about the lives of the Palestinians:

Listening to them you would think that Palestinians can accomplish nothing because they all suffer from massive Post Traumatic Distress Syndrome. They seem like a nation of victims who are far less able than Jews were when they were widely persecuted. Yet Palestinians do accomplish things. It is simply hard to find out what they are doing that is positive. You would think all Palestinians are alike but I know from the small amount of research I have done that some folks in some cities in the West Bank are much more successful than people in Gaza and the many refugee camps. It seems to me that there are two Nabluses. The thriving municipality and the camps. And I think that is a common pattern. Yet all we hear from Carter et. al. is about the horrors of the camps.

Israel's security measures are a mess that must be addressed. American Jews are often frustrated with the lack of creativity in what Israel is doing for security. But the people in Israel know what is going on with the Palestinians far better than occasional visitors like Carter or people like me who sit securely and read about it.

Pere,

Am I correct that you agree with me about the repetitive posts?

It seems to me that people who are not anti-semitic can say some of those things without thinking through what they are saying. How can you deal with that except by pointing out that what they have said could be construed as anti-semitic? And if it can be so construed, how can folks be outraged when someone thinks the person saying it is anti-semitic?

It is not as if most people give huge amounts of careful thought to everything they think and say. So it seems to me a person who feels maligned could give an explanation of why they say it and what they mean by it. A reflexive there you go again being defensive and aggressive will not help the situation.

dave I'm back...and here to help. Look anti-Semite hate talk is not what we need....As much as I disagree with some points about the politics of Israel. The kind of hate that can erupt is non productive... Dialog and peace is the answer...the Jews rule the world and the rhetoric that is behind that is wrong....I disagree with a lot of things but when people say things with a hateful undertone it just perpetuates the problem

Instead of yelling that the Jews do this and that ...which by the way is why Zionist felt that Israel was needed in the first place. We should find a common denominator and love everyone.

Stop Bigotry...in Israelis or anywhere.

Dave this is why using anti-semitism every time when criticizing Israel is dangerous because when we need it, it might fall on deaf ears....

Wow! Seven copies of the same anti-semitic post ostensibly from three different people. There is power.

I guess that is the kind of mild dissent that is not allowed a hearing except in obscure places like this Washington Post / Newsweek site. Ah the joys of power.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims, 1 billion Indian, 1 billion Chinese.

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews. India has the brain power, look at US softwar industry, and China - they make every thing, yes every thing for the world.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped. China is evil without human rights, India they are half communist eat with hands, so Jews is the only friend of America.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers. China is the richest nation soon in terms of production and India the the power at the door.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Jews conspricy or whatever you say the fact Americans are naive to talk they are scare to death to be critical of Israel or Jews, they are same as early days Europeans afrid to talk, if one leader like Jimmy Carter comes to power that knows the facts about Jews or Ford (found of Ford motors) will be change todays Jews control of American power and the bad consequence. You can fool some time somebody you can not fool all time every body.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out of the game, who wins, China, - you stupid.

You can be critical of every thing from communism, terrorism, government, gays even the creator God who gave us the very knowledge but you dare not be critical of the mighty Jews people or state of Israel.

I do not understand why American's love the Jews so much that they follow all their orders blindly, get their sons die for their war, give all their money and gets nothing but the whole world yes the rest of the world including the Europeans hate them.

Americans are the real looser may be some day there would be another painful repeat of history in European Jews.

Look at the numbers:

1. Jews populatioin is only about 15 million and rest of the world over 6 billion people, what is the percentage.

2. Over 1 billion Muslims

3. Muslims sits over oil and they should control the world policy but who does it by proxy - the Jews.

5. In America they are about 5 million Jews but 10 million Muslims - where they are, brand them terrorist so Jews can be worshipped.

6. 5 Billion in guns and money goes to Israel more than the rest of the world gets from the USA annually, why..

7. What America get in return, enemy of the Arabs, lost of friends in Europe, Bin Laden, 600,000 killed in Iraq (Jews wanted Saddan to be killed). 120,000 death in Afghanistan so oil pine can go to Israel from central Asia. World Trade centre death of 3000 Americans and humiliation of America around the world when their president travels.

8. What America really gets is nothing, Israel got no oil, no population like Muslim world of 1 billion consumers.

9. American Jews dominated media would loss controld someday the Internet will bring the truth to every American home and the the history will repeat again as in Europe, this is sad for humanity but this about greed and drive for money. Poor America they do not understand what Europeans knew long ago, but obviously killing is not an option but they should choose the right friend it should the the Indians, Chinese and Muslims, they all controld brain, money and old together not the Jews.

Choose wrong friend in long run, you run out who wins, China, - you stupid.

"then the beginning of peaceful dialogue starts with you admitting the palestinans have a right to exist."

Palestinians have the right to exist, flourish as best they may, call on all of us to help them flourish, and define themeselves as a separate people. Which Jewish leaders have objected to that?

"and to concede that israel has interfered with their rights to exist by cordoning them off into refugee camps for 50 years."

That is not my understanding. Jenin and Nablus are cities and there are refugee camps there. I do not think Israel has forced people to stay in the camps rather than integrating themselves into the cities. Why haven't they integrated themselves into cities? Nablus seems like a well run, reasonably prosperous place.

"or at least at some point admitting that israel has not always been fair in its treatment of palestinians."

That is so. Which Jewish leaders deny that?

"or at the very least, to stop denying that they are even a race- or a cohesive body that deserves recognition."

I do not see how you can define the people you refer to as a race. Race has been used to refer to groups such as Caucasians, Blacks, and Asians based on physical differences. I think you mean ethnicity. This is from the Britannica:

"Although they are easily and often confused, race and racism must be distinguished from ethnicity and ethnocentrism. While extreme ethnocentrism may take the same offensive form and may have the same dire consequences as extreme racism, there are significant differences between the two concepts. Ethnicity, which relates to culturally contingent features, characterizes all human groups. It refers to a sense of identity and membership in a group that shares common language, cultural traits (values, beliefs, religion, customs, etc.), and a sense of a common history. All humans are members of some cultural (ethnic) group, sometimes more than one. Most such groups feel—to varying degrees of intensity—that their way of life, their foods, dress, habits, beliefs, values, and so forth, are superior to those of other groups.

The most significant quality of ethnicity is the fact that it is unrelated to biology and can be flexible and transformable. People everywhere can change or enhance their ethnicity by learning about or assimilating into another culture."

The Palestianians have developed a unique ethnicity just as the Jews have. So you could argue have New Yorkers, Brooklynites, Chicagoans, San Franciscans and others. It is a very loose term.

It would be helpful to stop talking as if the Palestinians are black and the Jews are white.

"Race, on the other hand, is a form of identity that is perceived as innate and unalterable. Ethnicity may be transient and even superficial. Race is thought to be profound and grounded in biological realities. Ethnocentrism is based in a belief in the superiority of one's own culture over others, and it too may be transient and superficial. Racism is the belief in and promotion of the racial worldview described above. Ethnocentrism holds skin colour and other physical features to be irrelevant as long as one is a member of the same culture, or becomes so. The racial worldview holds that, regardless of behaviour or cultural similarities, a member of an inferior race (who is usually perceived to be so by means of physical features) can never be accepted. Race is an invented, fictional form of identity; ethnicity is based on the reality of cultural similarities and differences and the interests that they represent."

"race." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 11 Apr. 2007 http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-234663

good dave- keep it simple.

then the beginning of peaceful dialogue starts with you admitting the palestinans have a right to exist.

and to concede that israel has interfered with their rights to exist by cordoning them off into refugee camps for 50 years.

or at least at some point admitting that israel has not always been fair in its treatment of palestinians.

or at the very least, to stop denying that they are even a race- or a cohesive body that deserves recognition.

i guess the whole process would start if at some point you admit the palestinians exist, and stop denying they are valid.

Pere,

Everyone except some of the militia and settlers sees the madness of this. Most Jews have seen that for years.

What I am trying to do is far more difficult. I am trying to get at the rationality of it. I do that by saying what my analysis shows and trying to figure out why people who are very sure, based on what to me is insufficient evidence, are the way they are.

That is why I will not supply generalizations to match anti Israel generalizations. Dershowitz and Carter are both brilliant and decent men with much skill at argument and they have been getting nowhere for years via the competing generalizations route. Note that I am not blanket quoting Pro Israel sources because they feel they have no choice but to respond to generalizations with counter generalizations.

This is Marshak's Law. Simple ways of looking at things drive complexity and nuance out of the marketplace of ideas.

Thank you Victoria...peace unto you too :}

peace to you pere', your posts have been focused and informative.

Dave I have many friends who disagree and whom I care for an respect very much...my Jewish friends and my friends who are very fundmentally in favor of Israel and you. I think you have many valid and worth while points..It is not all black and white and thats my point. I feel that a true peace will evolve when all sides of this conflict see the madness of it. But, since this is a post about Israel I have tried to stay focused on that.

I really wish you peace. Even though you and I disagree dramatically on many parts i would never wish you anything but happiness and peace. I dont see violence of hatred of others as productive.

I worry for all of our children. But I do believe that all children need better from the adults in this conflict.

this will be my last oost...Shalom and thanks for all your perspectives.

Pere,

My attempts at dialog here clearly are not working. Is there anyone anywhere who disagrees with you about Israel and you view as promoting dialog?

Dave I wish you and all those you hold important peace. I realize that divergent views are ok. Those postings were very nice. The problem that I have with this conflict is the lack of middle ground from powerful groups such as the fellowship of Christians and Jews and AIPAC etc. They seem to only project their side of the conflict. I know there are many Jewish Groups and others promoting dialog. That is the only way to resolve this conflict. it won't come with the extremes at any end of the spectrum. As to you Shalom and peace.

I hope you can criticize any government and not be labeled, freedom of expression is the way to peace. Israel has many vibrant voices reaching out, we just need to hear a balanced approach here.

"Come, Come again
Whoever you are
Whether you are infidel,idolater or wanderer
Whether you have broken your vows a hundred times
Ours is not a caravan of despair
This is the gate of hope
Come, come yet again, come"

"Our mother is love! Our father is love!
We are born from love! We are love!
All loves constitute a bridge leading to the divine love.
To love human beings means to love GOD."

"When you do things from your soul,
you feel a river moving in you, a joy.

When actions come from another section,
the feeling disappears.

Don’t let others lead you. They may be blind,
or worse, vultures. Reach for the rope
of God. And what is that?

Putting aside self-will.

Because of willfulness people sit in jail.
From willfulness, the trapped birds’ wings are tied.
From willfulness, the fish sizzles in the skillet.

Don’t insist on going where you think you want to go.
Ask the way to the Spring.

Your living pieces will form a harmony.

There is moving palace that floats through the air,
with balconies and clear water running in every part of it,
infinity everywhere, yet contained under a single tent."

Rumi

"Lord of Peace, Divine Ruler, to whom peace belongs! Master of Peace, Creator of all things!

May it be thy will to put an end to war and bloodshed on earth, and to spread a great and wonderful peace over the whole world, so that nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Help us and save us all, and let us cling tightly to the virtue of peace. Let there be a truly great peace between every person and their fellow, and between husband and wife, and let there be no discord between people even in their hearts.

Let us never shame any person on earth, great or small. May it be granted unto us to fulfill Thy Commandment to "Love thy neighbor as thyself," with all our hearts and souls and bodies and possessions.

And let it come to pass in our time as it is written, "And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down and none shall make you afraid. I will drive the wild beasts from the land, and neither shall the sword go through your land.

God who is peace, bless us with peace !!!

(Attributed to Rabbi Nachman ben Feiga of Breslov, 1773-1810)"

in honor of our christian friends, i have laways loved this poem-

Saint Francis's Prayer for Peace!

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
Where there is hatred, let me sow love:
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, grant that I may not
So much seek to be consoled
As to console,
To be understood as to understand,
To be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive,
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
And it is in dying that we are born
to eternal life.

Saint Francis

What about these folks? I don't know much about them. I don't think they are AIPAC approved.

"The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews was founded in 1983 to promote understanding and cooperation between Jews and Christians and to build broad support for Israel and other shared concerns. Our vision is that Jews and Christians will reverse their 2,000-year history of discord and replace it with a relationship marked by dialogue, understanding, respect and cooperation.

Based in Chicago and Jerusalem, The Fellowship operates under the leadership of Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, and is governed by an independent board of directors, people from both faith groups who share our strong belief in building bridges between the Christian and Jewish communities."

This is from the Nablus website. Why is Nablus unique?

"Nablus Municipality is currently considered one of the largest organizations in Palestine in terms of volume of services it provides, the projects it carries out, and the number of local staff it employs. Nablus Municipality is one of the major employers in Palestine and it is the main driving force behind development process of the Nablus city. Among its major accomplishments are the establishment of Child Cultural Centers, public parks, the preservation of Nablus cultural and historic heritage project namely; remodeling of old city, and the commercial center which is considered one of the economic and architectural land marks in Palestine. During this period, the city was suffering the lack of water resources crisis especially in the summer time. The municipal council was determined to take the challenge through digging water wells to meet not only the need of Nablus citizens, but it also provides water to the neighboring towns and villages."

Victoria,

Well, I was talking about the things you have been posting today and in the last few days not just the one post you wrote. And you did say:

"even when dave tries to take the conversation elsewhere-"

Which is just one of a long string of making it about me statements while you avoid the ideas I am talking about.

"dave, do you know what the 3 oaths are?"

That is from the Talmud. The Talmud is a collection of arguments about and explanations of the Mishnah and the Torah. The Mishnah recorded an oral tradition that went back to Aaron. There are many arguments and all are recorded. If your view was the only correct view, there would be no Israel. The Mishnah and Torah do not have the 3 oaths.

dave- i know for sure now you dont read my posts- heres what i wrote-

"sorry i started a thought but cant elaborate right now ill come back to it- "

i wasnt asking you anything-
i didnt criticize anything-

i was bringing up a point that i started earlier-
a continuity of thought

how on EARTH when it had nothing to do with you do you interpret that im criticizing or insulting you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Why do you think it advances your cause to continually criticize me and insult me? Are you proving to yourselves and those who think as you do that all who disagree with you are inferior? I have encountered that before. It seems like the worst possible way to try to peacefully settle anything."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i wasnt even addressing anything to you!

where is the insult????

honestly dave- go read what i posted-

i asked you if you wanted to go from a scriptural base- you posted some very very basic scripture-

i started getting a tiny bit into it-

if you dont want to or cant do scripture- just say so!!!

mercy what are you going on about??

or if your posting something pere said- identify it!

im not pere!

conversatins arent catchall to whom it may concern

my goodness if you dont want to do scripture fine! just say so- this post makes no sense at all-

whats this all about?
"hen we get Muslims thinking they are experts on the Talmud and can reasdily understand what Jews spend lifetimes figuring out."

what kind of bigoted statement is that?

if you cant handle scripture - ok- but theres no call for any assumptions you make-

you really REALLY dont know anything about my background- at all-

i guess your philosophy is to be on the offensive so people must defend themsleves- or else pretend an injury that never happened-

either way theyre both distractions from the conversation.

get a grip dave- no one is attacking you-
and insulting someone pre-emptively is just ill mannered.

"However, Dave you seem to always turn this into a one sided dialog. Where I believe that it needs to be resolved by both parties. You always rationalize and your Bias is very evident."

That is why there are no useful discussions about these things by anyone. People agressively misread what is said to them just as you do with what I write. That forces people such as Dershowitz to make the case for Israel to deal with all the misinformation that is pushed as truth. And that feeds into the idea that these matters are simpler than they are. Then we get Muslims thinking they are experts on the Talmud and can reasdily understand what Jews spend lifetimes figuring out.

"I also find it interesting that you bash Carter and say he is an anti-Semite"

That is not true. You can not distinguish between the man and the statements he makes. Stupid statements do not show he is stupid about everything.

Victoria and Pere,

Why do you think it advances your cause to continually criticize me and insult me? Are you proving to yourselves and those who think as you do that all who disagree with you are inferior? I have encountered that before. It seems like the worst possible way to try to peacefully settle anything.

"Your hatred for the Palestinians is very evident in your posts. You deny their existence and perpetuate the party line that Israel can do no wrong."

That is Jimmy Carter bias. Those who disgree with him must hate the Palestinians. He can not conceive of the possibility that he could simply be wrong about some things.

I do not deny their existence. I question when all the Arabs who live in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel and only those Arabs came to be referred to as the Palestinians. And you have given no answer. In fact your post shows you do not even recognize that I have asked the question.

Are we going to go back and forth like this with your accusations getting wilder and wilder?

"You continue to propose that Arabs are evil and they were just squatting for 2000 years and that they could be absorbed by other..liken to ethnic cleansing....That Israel is only for Jews....forget the Christians that were once Jews or the Muslims that were also converted..."

I have not said that. You are talking to an image in your head. What widely respected Jewish leader has said that?