Women and Religion

Satan uses false religion to blind people to God’s purpose and standards. So it is no wonder that women have fare badly in the world’s religions down through the ages.
Tertullian, a third-century theologian, once described women as “the devil’s gateway.” Others have used the Bible to portray women as less important than men. As a result, many people feel that the Bible discriminates against women.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton, a 19th-century pioneer for women’s rights in the United States, felt that “the Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women’s emancipation.” Of the first five books of the Bible, Stanton once said: “I know of no other books that so fully teach the subjection and degradation of woman.”
How do the Hebrew Scriptures view women?
“Your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.” (Genesis 3:16) Critics point to this as a judgment of Eve by God and as divine approval of woman’s subjection by man. However, rather than a declaration of God’s purpose, this is an accurate statement of the sad consequences of sin and rejection of God’s sovereignty. Abuse of women is the direct result of mankind’s fallen nature, not God’s will. Wives in many cultures have indeed been dominated by their husbands, often in very harsh ways. But this was not God’s purpose.
Both Adam and Eve were made in God’s image. They received the same mandate from God to become fruitful, fill the earth, and subdue it. They were to work together as a team. (Genesis 1:27, 28) At that point neither was cruelly dominating the other. Genesis 1:31 says: “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.”
In some cases Bible accounts do not indicate God’s view on a matter. They may just be historical narrative. The account of Lot offering his daughters to the Sodomites is related without moral commentary or judgment by God.—Genesis 19:6-8.
The fact is, God hates all forms of exploitation and abuse. (Exodus 22:22; Deuteronomy 27:19; Isaiah 10:1, 2) The Mosaic Law condemned rape and prostitution. (Leviticus 19:29; Deuteronomy 22:23-29) Adultery was prohibited, and the penalty was death for both parties. (Leviticus 20:10) Rather than discriminate against women, the Law elevated and protected them from the rampant exploitation common in the surrounding nations. A capable Jewish wife was a highly respected and esteemed individual. (Proverbs 31:10, 28-30) The Israelites’ failure to follow God’s laws on showing respect for women was their fault, not God’s will. (Deuteronomy 32:5) God ultimately judged and punished the nation as a whole for their flagrant disobedience
In addition, subjection as it is used in the Bible is not discrimination. Any society can function well only when there is order. This requires the administration of authority. The alternative is chaos. “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace.”—1 Corinthians 14:33.
The apostle Paul describes the family headship arrangement: “The head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) Every individual except God submits to a higher authority. Does the fact that Jesus has a head mean that he is being discriminated against? The fact that men Scripturally have been assigned to take the lead in the congregation and the family does not mean that women are being discriminated against. To prosper, both the family and the congregation need women and men to play their respective roles with love and respect.—Ephesians 5:21-25, 28, 29, 33.
Jesus consistently treated women with respect. He refused to follow the discriminatory traditions and regulations taught by the Pharisees. He talked to non-Jewish women. (Matthew 15:22-28; John 4:7-9) He taught women. (Luke 10:38-42) He protected women from being abandoned. (Mark 10:11, 12) Perhaps the most revolutionary step for his time was that Jesus accepted women into his inner circle of friends. (Luke 8:1-3) As the perfect embodiment of all of God’s qualities, Jesus showed that individuals of both sexes have equal value in God’s eyes. Among the early Christians, both men and women received the gift of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:1-4, 17, 18) For those anointed, who have the prospect of serving as kings and priests with Christ, there will be no distinction of gender at all once resurrected to heavenly life. (Galatians 3:28) The Author of the Bible, Jehovah, does not discriminate against women.

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It would be negligent not to point out that maleness derives its superiority endowment directly from Biblical text - which, at best is a fictional account of what may or may not have transpired in ancient history that forms the presumption of religious authority as ultimate authority.

Through religious authority all manner of inconsistencies and privileges are created with respect to race, to force, and to justification of attitudes that support those privileges, and the use of force on others, that at best are little more than words on a page marketed by religious figures throughout history and given tax exemption to do so. It is a seductive, and deceptive scheme, at best, and a lethal weapon at worst to form cults, to maintain cults, and to further the creation of cults that have undue influence upon the lives of everyone in society, not just those who may be defined as believers.

2007 is 2,007 years late in examining that scheme, and that marketing advantage indulged even by governments.

Women In Islam

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Role Of Muslim Women - By Sister Nihaya Basha

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF MUSLIM WOMEN?

Presented at the 17th Annual Conference of the Federation of Australian Muslim Students and Youth (FAMSY) on Sunday 12 July 1998 at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.

I would like to start with a comparison between Islam and ancient civilisation. Whenever the position of woman throughout history is mentioned, Islam emerges as a unique exception. The religion of Islam gave women an honorable status and established their dignified equality with men. Before the advent of Islam, women had no rights of any kind, or an independent identity in any form. In previous religions and systems, they were treated as mere chattels in the house, subject to be bought, sold or discarded at discretion. Some examples are:

Chinese Civilisation:

I quote from the book of Chinese civilisation, which reflects "The Chinese wisdom presumed that ‘Women were created and placed the most inferior point of the human race, and should be given the meanest work’."

Greek civilisation:

From the book, The History of the World, I quote "In ancient Greece, the concept of woman was the view that her name, same as her body, should be concealed behind the doors of her home"

Hinduism:

In India, the ordinance of Manu implies several clauses handling the status of woman. Among them are the following:

Article No 148 reflects that "In childhood, a female must be subject to her father and later to her husband. When her Lord dies, she will be subject to her sons or his next of kin. For a woman must never be independent.

Until late in the 18th century, the rites of Sati were practiced, in which a Hindu widow should burn herself on the pyre of her deceased husband.

Judeo Christian:

In the Judeo Christian belief, women are regarded as the source of evil. Why? Because of her alleged Biblical role as the temptress who seduced Adam into disobedience to his Lord. By tempting her husband to eat the forbidden fruit, she not only defied Allah, but also caused humankind’s expulsion from paradise, thus instigating all temporal human suffering.

Jahiliya (Era of Ignorance):

In Jahiliya, before Islam, the infant girl was buried alive. If a woman’s husband died, his son would own her and he might marry her or lock her in the house until she died. Women had no right to own or to inherit. Allah says in the Quran, "When the female infant is buried alive, is questioned for what crime she was killed."

And what happened when one of the non-believers was told his wife had given birth to a baby girl? "When news is brought to one of them, of the birth of a female (child), his face darkened and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he return her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? What an evil choice they decided on!"

On the other hand, Islam is an egalitarian (equal) creed, which explicitly rejects such oppression. Men are not superior to women in Islam and women are not superior to men in Islam. Allah says in the Quran, "The best of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct and Allah consciousness" S49-13.

The Prophet said, "All people are equal like the teeth of a comb. There is no merit of an Arab over a non-Arab or a white over a black person or of a male over a female. Only Allah-conscious people merit a preference with Allah". Another teaching is, "Women are the twin halves of men." It is therefore difficult to imagine twin halves who do not have equal rights.

In Islam equality in spiritual and moral duties produces equality in spiritual and moral rights. The Quran reflects: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast and deny themselves, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praises. For them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward"

It is very clear in the Quran that Adam and Eve were both responsible for the first sin, both asked Allah for forgiveness and both were forgiven. The common belief in other Scriptures that Eve was the devil’s advocate is therefore a belief that is completely alien to Islam and Islamic teaching.

Is it true that a Muslim woman has the right to speak and share her opinion?

Like men, Muslim women are entitled to freedom of expression. It is reported throughout history that women not only expressed their opinions freely, but they also participated in serious discussion with the Prophet himself and other leaders of the Islamic State. Women were accustomed to question the Prophet while men were present. They were not embarrassed to have their voices heard, nor did the Prophet prevent their inquiries. One of these cases was the case of Khowlah Bint Thaalaba. She came to the Prophet (s) and complained about her husband and Allah revealed verses of the Quran while she was sitting and He resolved her problem. And the case of Omar (ra) when he was challenged, during his sermon, by a woman regarding the dowry is an example of women voicing their opinions and correcting a male. Omar admitted that the woman was right and he was wrong. Omar said, "Everybody is more knowledgeable than Omar." Furthermore, the Quran reflects the conversation between Sulaiman and Balqees. All of these examples support the fatwa that women are allowed to voice their opinions publicly for whatever has been prescribed for us. Allah tells us in the Quran that our speech must be just. The restriction is how we speak and that it should be a just speech.

The Role of Muslim Women

The status of Muslim women as defined in Islam. The woman is a mother. Paradise lies under the feet of the mother. As an authentic hadith teaches us: A man approached the Prophet and asked, "Who is the most worthy of my care?" The Prophet replied "Your mother", three times and then your father. A Muslim woman is also a daughter and a sister. Allah tells us that "He bestows female offspring upon whom He wills and bestows male offspring upon whom He wills".

A Muslim woman is also a wife who is a source of comfort for her husband as he is to her. "And among His signs is this, that He created wives from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts."

Women make up half of society and they are responsible for nurturing, guidance and reformation of the subsequent generations of men and women. It is the female who imbues principles and faith into the souls of the nation. A woman’s responsibility in faith is exactly the same as that of a man. Women are to pray, fast, give charity, perform the pilgrimage and perform other forms of ibadah. A woman is rewarded for this just like a man. A woman must believe in the Oneness of Allah, the Books of Allah, the Angels of Allah, the Prophets of Allah, the Day of resurrection, the Day of Judgment and heaven and hell, and predestination.

Does Islam Permit Women to Seek an Education?

Islam has made it a duty on every Muslim male and female to gain knowledge, which is considered to be a superior act of worship in Islam. Preventing a Muslim woman from gaining an education is therefore an un-Islamic act.

Allah asks in the Quran, "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

Allah also tells us that He will raise those who believe among you and those who have knowledge to high ranks. A famous hadith teaches us to "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave". In Islam, therefore both men and women are credited with the capacity for learning, understanding and teaching. One of the famous women in the history of Islam is the Prophet’s wife, Aisha. The quality for which she is remembered primarily is that of her intelligence and outstanding memory. She is considered as one of the most reliable sources of hadith by virtue of these qualities. She has reported more than 200 hadith and is regarded as one of the teachers of the hadith. Aisha used to teach men and women at the Prophet’s masjid.

Generally speaking, in the Muslim olden world, there was no bar or prohibition on women pursuing studies. On the contrary, Islam encouraged it. As a result of this, many Muslim women became teachers, such as Nafisa, a descendant of Ali, who was such a great authority on hadith that Imam Ashafii sat in her circle when he was at the height of his fame and Shaikha Shahda who lectured publicly in one of the principal mosques of Baghdad to large audiences on literature and poetry and was one of the foremost scholars in Islam. There are numerous other incidents of educated Muslim women.

I would like to mention something very important. That is, knowledge is not only limited to the religious knowledge but includes all forms of knowledge. Acquiring knowledge enables Muslims to get a better perception and understanding of the world around us and make us more conscious of Allah. Brothers and Sisters: the Prophet, peace be upon him, had put so much effort into reviving the ummah during that time. He began the process by tackling individuals, then the family and finally society. This is the point where the Muslim women play the role as the backbone and vital elements in the establishment of the society. "The believers men and women are protectors one of another, they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil" IX-71.

A Muslim woman as in this verse has to participate in Islamic dawah. Evidences from the Seerah of the Prophet proved that the Sahabiat (Muslim women at the prophet’s time) were not ignored in the Islamic movement. Asma, to quote one of the many examples, was one of the first few who knew of the Prophet’s plan to leave for Madinah during Hijrah. On the night of their departure, Asma was the one who prepared a bag of food and a water container for the Prophet (s) and Abu Bakr for their journey. Soon after the immigration of the Prophet, she left Mecca, during her pregnancy, traveling a long journey.

Sisters must be given the opportunity to work for Islam. I would like to quote a statement of Yusuf Al-Qaradawy: "One of the important social sectors which much be reached by the Islamic awakening is the sector of women. Islam is not a man’s religion but it is a religion for all men and women. In terms of number, women constitute more than half of the society. Hence, the voice of Islamic dawah must reach Muslim women. Women must be involved in Islamic work, even at leadership levels". Sisters can play a vital role in the Islamic organisation and Islamic society.

What are the roles of men and women within a Muslim family?

In the Islamic family, the role of men and women is complementary rather than competitive. The Quran makes it clear that "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means" IV-34.

The Quran makes it clear that the husband has full responsibility for the maintenance of the family. The wife on the other hand is responsible for the welfare of the family. Their duties are described as equal in importance but not identical in substance. The qawama is merely a matter of leadership and directing in exchange for duties that should be performed. For it is the husband who pays the dowry and he is the one who provides the house.

Sisters, I would like to convey an important message to you. If you dearly love Allah, you will accept everything He says and orders us to do. Allah is the All Knowing of His creation and knows what is best for them. I accept what Allah orders me to do because I am positive that Allah is wise and knows what is best for me. The Prophet taught us that if a woman dies and her husband is pleased with her, she will enter Paradise.

Is there a gap between Islamic principles and the practice of Muslims?

Unfortunately, many Muslims are unaware or ignorant about true Islamic teachings, due to a lack of education. Such Muslims practice a distorted Islam, which has been contaminated by their cultural traditions, which have no Islamic basis. This impure Islam is not based on any authentic Islamic sources, the Quran or the recorded teachings and practices of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. One should therefore judge a religion by its teachings and not by people who claim to be its followers. The issue of feminism in Islam is meaningless. The coming of Islam has brightened the life and future of women, in which Islam has lifted up their level to the same level as men. Islam upholds women to the highest and most respected position. Islam has also protected women from being mere objects to satisfy the desires of men. The Quran describes women as a symbol of beauty, justice and love. Muslim women have also been acknowledged for their important role in the establishment of the Islamic community.

reference: http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Efamsy/women_role01.html

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wow that is rich to say the least- i will go and find that and check it out--
peace

Victoria,
Also check this out...I know it's not in the texts but it's in the middle of Christendom in the center (top) of the Sistine Chapel, painted by Michaelangelo...the fall scene...look it up online...note the position of Eve...turn her face around (to what she "should" be worshipping and isn't)...then note the gender of the serpent...really study it...and recall that is cultures prior to Judaism (much less the other two Western religions), the female Divine's sacred symbols were serpents (what a great symbol of rejuvenation and resurrection...gets a fresh body each year as it sheds it's skin...also is a symbol of wisdom and healing (think how the medical establishment has taken the serpents and used them in the universl "healing" medical caduseus)...yet, in our texts...altogether something else is going on as the writers write the new stories. How better to change viewpoints and cultural systems than to take a symbol that is sacred and turn it into something evil...recall too, in the old religions of the female divine that trees were important...and fruits from those trees...a communion...and look what happens with those trees, the snake...the woman...we should all be furious (my opinion) that this isn't discussed upfront (not used in apologetics and just reinterpreted...tell it like it is...read the text as it was meant...turning reality upside down. Even Eve is "born" from Adam...where else have you heard of a human woman coming out of a male? Complete reversal and co-optation of the birth process...I think it is rich to look at the stories underneath the stories and see what treasures are there...what wisdom is hidden from us...

Victoria,
I do know some Muslim women and we've talked about the above issues. In fact, I had a long discussion yesterday with a young Muslim woman. She gave me a beautiful vase from Morocco with lovely designs and Arabic writing...that lovely calligraphy. I asked her what it said, and she replied, Allah, He....
We talked about what it means to say (whether it is God, Allah, Zeus, whomever...) "God is neither male or female (that would make no sense!)..."HE is Spirit." Right there you have a tremendously powerful image in language and and idol. I know Muslims and most Jews and Chritians don't like to look at this, but when they do, they see the problem. What is we said, "Goddess is neither male or female...She is Spirit." Anyone have a problem with that? Shouldn't...Because we know the Sacred is neither male or female. But the names and pronouns do matter, that is my point. Scholars can argue this all day long, but the bottom line is that in the popular culture, "He" means male...and when the Sacred is referred (in language) as He, then a judgement about what is of most value is powerfully assigned. Women would be wise in this world of our(my opinion) to realize this and to see what it means. Perhaps they would not be so supportive of this language and what lies beneath it. And if they are supportive of it, then they are part of the patriarchal problem and structure themselves.
Thanks for your time in reading this...

well te texts are not gender specific in the qur'an- masculine pronouns are inserted in the translations however- also ALLAH would really be considered leaning toward the feminine side (it means literally the god) as in arabic an ah suffix is a feminine one- e.g. im actually not a muslim but a muslimah-
and the doctrine is very very specific about the gnederlessness of god- actually to ascribe a gender to god would be considered strange to any muslim male or female. any humanization of ALLAH or personification is not in the qur'an- there are no hands of god or animated qualitied ascribed to ALLAH- so while a christian or jew 'would' say this- it is not found in the actual scriptures while i islam it actually is delineated.

if you know any muslims ask them this question-
ask the men- theyll agree to every man asked.

but i get your other points- there is a wonderful scholar named asma beslan who has written a book called Unreading the patriarchal interpertations of the quran" and since men have controlled the economics and physical access throughout history- there has been an imbalanced interpertation in their favor- but that has been changing and being challenged since the late 19th century and continues today. (actually muslimahs in the east claim a headstart on western women as far as the womens liberation movement goes) and actually they are right-
i may be over emphatic about it because its not a new issue for women in islam-

so now we will see the pendulum swinging back the other way- personally (and arrogantly) i imagine for the better---
peace

To: Victoria...
Christians and Jews would say the same thing about "God"...that "God" is neither male nor female...just not so...too much in the texts, liturgies, etc. indicate differently...as does Islam. Texts of the Western religions are all written by males for males. Why can't we just admit it? As females, we can insert ourselves in the texts if we choose, but we are doing the inserting...we aren't in there (unless in connection to some major story about a male)...rare rare exceptions...The female version of Allah is not Allah...just as the female version of God is not God...there do exist female names (ie, Goddess...various names...ex: in Judeo-Christian...Ashoreth, Astarte, Artemis...no different from El, Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai (and these names El, Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai, Adonai is another, etc. are all melded together and called "God"...the "Goddesses" are further fractured...their temples were destroyed by 500 AD...same as ancient deities were destroyed around the Ka'ba. Allah, I think, is referred to as he, but never she...yet those will say, "he" is not male or female. "He" is not male? What?
Chauvet is a cave found in southern France in 1995 and the art goes back 38,000 plus years ago. It is highly abstract and sophisticated and has been scientifically dated to the time stated above...the caves appear to hold ritual and spiritual significance...Lascaux, being the best well-known...this is also the time of the many many many carvings of the female form (often in overhands of shelters most likely used for religious purposes. No fortifications have been found, the humans did not take more than they needed. At least in this area of the world. Thus, our religions of today are very very young.

just an aside and probably self serving but onw of the premises of islam is the non-gender specific nature of ALLAH-(god) which is specifically neither male or female

who is chauvet? is that a person or a plce? forgive my ignorance

Thanks Victoria,
Which leds to the theory that all the female forms found (incredibly numerous compared to the male form) were most likely sculpted, formed by females, some in ritual settings (such as the Dordogne in France, etc.); the form of the male are dramatically fewer in number, less abstract...
To "assume" that males did all this paleolithic artwork (as an earlier poster assumed) is to place an androcentricity of today onto 40,000 years ago...

i can tell you from a perspective as a female artist trained with many other artists of both sexes- that all artists invariably start with what they know best- which is themselves-

Not sure who wrote the post above (way above) re: art history and "prehistory" (always an interesting term)...but that person wrote that males painted on the cave walls and made the sculptures of the female form. How is this known? It's not. There is no way to know what gender did this art. It would be reasonable to think that both did. In burials sites during this time, everyone pretty much had the same type of burial...no one with all the "stuff" that chieftains of later times had. There are many theories re: the cave paintings; please do not perpetuate androcentric thinking by attributing the world's earliest art to males when we have no idea who did this art. We do know that humans did it and this went back (Chauvet, for example) to almost 40,000 years ago. So, our religions of today are very young. Infant religions. Also the art of the caves (and the sculptures are highly sophisticated in style, in perspective...there is an abstraction that is phenomenal--has anyone seen this art? I've visited the caves in southwest France several times and am amazed every time. The thing that stands out to me is that the world appears to be that of the animals (I realize that humans are animals but that is rarely dwelt on very often)...the animals at that time seemed to be the ones who held the dominion. Then look what has happened once "man" (for we do know that males wrote the our present "sacred texts"--that we do know...

Gaby,

That's OK

Victoria should be thanked because she has cleard up many things for you.

Peace to you all

Gaby,

That's OK

Victoria should be thanked because she has cleard up many things for you.

Peace to you all

I'm sorry! I meant to say thanks NZMAM!

Thanks Victoria! One is never old enough to stopp learning a little day-by-day.

Gaby,

Niqab is the face covering. Niqabs (plural)

I don't wear one. As a matter of fact only one woman in my family wears one, my mother-in-law.

When you think about it, it's kind of cool. You get to see everyone but no one can see your face.

Of course she lifts it when it's required, preferrably in front of a woman.

Peace

Victoria,

I an ealier post by you you siad: "(i have to be honest- niqabis scare me too)"

What is a niqabis?

Thanks, Jihadist.

I'm often taken aback by the reluctance of some Muslims to condemn the killing and violence. Instead they try to rationalize the behavior because they don't want to appear controversial about the Muslim faith. Or maybe they aren't vocal about the atrocities out of fear that they might become targets.

Your quote "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousins; my cousins, brother and I against the whole world." was a concept that Hitler used in Germany to squash any resistance to his NAZI party. Neighbors were spying on neighbors, children were spying on their fammily members and then reported back to the authorities what they saw or heard. It was not unusual for kids to have their own parents taken away for "treason to the state". Many times for times as simple as listening to the BBC on the radio. People who opposed the NAZI party lived in constant fear.

Victoria,

Yes, I live in the US now. I married an American soldier who was stationed in my home town. We lived in several places in Europe and the States until he retired from the Army. We settled in Montana in 1993.

Your story about your Grandma is very amusing. I had to laugh because most Germans aren't very enamored with the French, so I can understand your Dad's consternation.

Victoria - Gaby - Canyon - Mr. Mark - Fate - A Hermit - Jihadist - NZMAM - James - And others:

I appreciate that Islam in South East Asia is different than that practiced in the Middle East and that the Christianity of today is different than it was 500 years ago. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I believe that whenever societies are allowed to engage in the public discourse of ideas (including religious and political ones), that the relative freedom of woman in that culture also increases. If our traditions and beliefs are "true" they will stand up to scrutiny and comparison to other ideas. When everyone is free to argue their ideas and share their faith with others - AND everyone is allowed to change their minds on essential things without fear of retribution from either the government or their neighbors, then woman (and men) will be free to ask questions, dream dreams, and make important quality of life choices about what to believe or not to believe! If that day is ever to come let us all join together to protect the rights and freedoms of those we disagree with to openly practice and proselytize their understanding of the world around them. Truth remains truth no matter how it fairs in the market place of ideas. We should not fear freedom.

Gaby,

I do agree with you. Perception is everything.

I'm rather resigned about my co-religionists killing each other and about intra-religious conflicts. And there is also ideological conflicts. Always for power and control be it ideological or couched in religious justifications.

Even though I am a Muslim, I still flinch whenever I remember the Arab saying : "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousins; my cousins, brother and I against the whole world."

I also accept the fact that I am culturally closer in temperament, ethnicity and culture to the Buddhists of Southeast Asia even if I am a Southeast Asian Muslim, rather than my Muslim brothers and sisters in the Middle East.

And Southeast Asian Malay Muslims change their beliefs about four times - from animism to Hinduism to Buddhism to Islam. So, the Hindu epics like Ramayana, and Buddha's statues and teachings are not alien to us for example.

But once one performed the Hajj, one realize that one is, and becomes one with the community of humans regardless or race or country of origin. Makes one realize and appreciate the universalism of human existence and concerns in sharing the rites of the Hajj and in trading stories on our lands and lives with other pilgrims.

i dont know if anyone could blame you for repraoching canyon- he can be ----difficult.

Victoria, if you want to see the not so nice side of me, go to this thread: Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God? If so, what exactly does that mean? If not, who was he?
Page 17

my grandmother was from uttenweiler and we had stumtisch every sunday- she confessed to me before she died that the whole family moved to uttenweiler from france so were not really german and swore me to secrecy til she died- my father still hasnt forgiven me and consdiers himself german-
so i dontknow if its genetic or cultural but grandma definitely had a bit of the stubborn streak too-
are you in the us now? im in queens NY
peace
thats what we need here- more laughter

Hahahahha! Victoria, you are too funny.

I'm a 54 year old stubborn German yet-to-be Grandma. I wish my kids would hurry up already.

GABY id say with the information given in the media today- it would be hard not to be repulsed by many activities done in the name of islam- i appreciate your sincere search for truth in the matter and your always respectful queries without implication or judgements attached to them.
peace

by the way- i thought you were a man for along time and sometimes didnt answer because you were so friendly and nice- that i thought engaging you might be tantamount to a minor flirtation-

just for the record

silly, aint i?

Thank you, Jihadist, Victoria and Nzmam for your candor and your explanations.

Victoria, yes, Gaby is short for Gabrielle. Actually, it's spelled Gabriele because I am originally from Germany.

Jihadist, your comments about Muslims in countries other than the Middle East were very enlightening. I think most Westerners base their concepts about Islam on news stories from the Middle East, the Taliban and al Quaeda. I hope you agree with me that the atrocities happening there would turn off any reasonable human being. Because most of the killings are purportedly in the name of Allah, Islam has been vilified unjustly.

However, if you were to reverse the faiths, and say Christians in Europe were to fight each other the way Muslims fight each other in Iraq, would you not draw hostile conclusions about the Christian faith?

By the way, I am not a Christian. I believe in a supreme being but do not follow any organized religion. I have drawn my own conclusions about what we call God many years ago and am comfortable with my believes.

wow zainab i really appreciate you on this post
salaams

GABY,

NZMAM is an acronym. My real name is Zainab (zay-nab.) You can pronounce NZMAM as n-z,mam.

"It's called "faith" for a reason" :

"The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate;..."

And what's your problem with that.

"I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it?"

Well, I think the only ones that will follow your "holy book" are those who have the same mentality as yourself. Such ideas as yours have been tested (Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc) Now if you were to compare the followers of said religions with the three monothiestic religions (individually), you would see what most choose.

Those who believe that Allah is their creator don't do so because it just says so in the Quran. Faith is something that is constantly changing, sometimes it becomes stronger, sometimes weaker, and if it gets weak enough, leads to disbeliefe in one's creator (i.e. atheism)

Vitoria wrote:

"do you really think that you could write a book that could affect peoples hearts and minds in say - 1400 or 2000 years from now?
or even one that could affect people powerfully tomorrow?
then i say- WRITE THAT BOOK!"

I'll make it easier on you and challenge you to write one chapter (or even one verse), like that there is in the Holy Quran.

do you really think those same people who hijack religion as an excuse to treat others poorly- if religion magically disappeared- dont you thinlk those same people would find some other ism to treat people poorly?

its hardly much of a reason to negate the impact some writings have had on generations of human beings- perhaps there is something you are missing in your analysis-

do you really think that you could write a book that could affect peoples hearts and minds in say - 1400 or 2000 years from now?
or even one that could affect people powerfully tomorrow?
then i say- WRITE THAT BOOK!

has it escaped your attention that those books have also inspired countless millions to treat other people well?
give credit where credit is due-
how often do you hear a murderer confess that they were motivated by reading the old testament?

i welcome intelligent comments here from all views- but just denigrating something arbitrarily and without 'proof' is the same thing youre complaining about from the faithful!

People CHOOSE what they wish to believe. As for religious texts, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fly for "proof" when someone says that whatever book is the word of God because it says so. Big deal! Hmmm... I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it? I have no problem with people of faith per se; I do have a problem when they try to bridge from "faith" to "proof" just because. All religious texts have holes in terms of them being the pure word of God: The Bible, significant portions of which written many years after Jesus' death; The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate; The Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith seeing things that no one else saw or has since found... need I go on?

The main issue I have with religion or secular law, for that matter, is that people hijack them to treat others poorly. By any standard, it should be unacceptable.

People CHOOSE what they wish to believe. As for religious texts, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fly for "proof" when someone says that whatever book is the word of God because it says so. Big deal! Hmmm... I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it? I have no problem with people of faith per se; I do have a problem when they try to bridge from "faith" to "proof" just because. All religious texts have holes in terms of them being the pure word of God: The Bible, significant portions of which written many years after Jesus' death; The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate; The Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith seeing things that no one else saw or has since found... need I go on?

The main issue I have with religion or secular law, for that matter, is that people hijack them to treat others poorly. By any standard, it should be unacceptable.

Hi Gaby- I live in Queens NY- and I drive like crazy everywhere that I have to- I shop alone because I dont have any male relatives and my husband is usually working- well my father is in Pittsburgh but hasnt ever been concerned about my comings or goings. So Im quite used to getting around on my own- as ive only been married for 9 months- ive been doind it all my life. I wear the hijab(headscarf) and get asked at least once a week if im a nun-
i have the map of ireland on my face as they say-
and almost every day for a solid 8 years now someone somewhere asks me where im originally from.
When i say Pittsburgh- they invariably always say-
Before that?
When I go out- I dont shake the hands of men- but its always accompanied by a polite lifting of my hand to my chest and extensive explanation- (which usually outlasts the time period that it would have taken to just shake hands) many times men are not aware of the reasons behind it and are ususally satisfied- it is imporatant to make the distinction between rejection and a practice based on religion.
The Prophet(pbuh) would shake hands firmly with people- using both hands- never being the first to let go- we always try to emulate his high manners.

I know this isnt really an answer to your query- its just another perspective as the other ladie answered so well already.
peace GABY and thanks for your always reasonable attitude.
btw- is GABY short for Gabrielle? just curious
peace

Gaby,
Forgive me. I did not know about your father and husband and your genuine interest in knowing and understanding. Too many in the On Faith postings slinging cheap, easy and obvious shots at Muslims, Islam and Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

I am a Southeast Asian Muslim. Islam is not "spread by the sword" here. Apart from the Islam, we are also shaped by our traditional culture. And Southeast Asian Muslims normally wear headscarves if they covered their heads.

By the way, Arab Muslims are less than 20% of the world's Muslims. Southeast Asian Muslims, Malay Muslims, easily outnumber Arab Muslims.

Traditionally, we informed a member, or all members of our family in the household as to where we are going. This is before handphones/cellphones/mobiles and we still do. Culturally rude not to do so and we still do for the extended family is still prevalent. Southeast Asian Muslims are more family based, and not tribal based culturally.

And of course, Southeast Asian Muslim women culturally don't have to be accompanied by men to attend and be in social gatherings, but being alone in a secluded place with a fellow you are not married to is socially suspect.

If you ask an Iranian, Nigerian, Indian, Pakistani, Bosnian, Moroccan, Bangladeshi Muslim, the answer may be different.

"Western propoganda slinger" is a new one Gaby. Love that phrase:)

Thank you for you insights, NZMAM! Much appreciated. I now better understand what is and is not allowed although I have difficulty comprehending it. Maybe I'm too old and have forgotten the fire of my youth.

By the way, can you tell me how to pronounce your name? It's quite a tongue twister for me.

GABY,

"I have been told that Muslim women are forbidden to socially interact with males unless accompanied by a male member of their household."

The answer to this statement depends on what you mean by "socially interact".

If, for example, to interact means going shopping and asking a male associate for help in finding something, then the answer is no it's not forbidden. If, for example, to interact means going to a male doctor and being alone with him in the exam room, then the answer is yes it is forbidden. Women are allowed in Islam to go out unaccompanied by a male relative if she were to go to school, work, shopping, etc. as long as she makes sure that she will not find herself secluded with another male (for her own well-being) It is only recommended that a male relative accompanies her if she knows that there's a chance that she might be left alone with another male.

There's a saying of Prophet Mohamed(PBUH) which goes something like this, "When a man and a woman are left alone together, satan is the third present."

JIHADIST wrote:
"When you go out of your house, surely you tell your father or husband where you are going just so they know and not be hysterical not knowing where you are?"

I might be mistaken GABY, but I think JIHADIST means that if some catasrophic event were to happen while you were out, your relatives might become hysterical not knowing if you're okay or not. I think that they would be better off knowing where you are, just in case something happens they can be reassured where you are and not be too worried about you.(Unless they know that you were at the place where the incident occured, GOD forbid)

Also, my questions are genuine because I'd like to understand and be told by people who should know instead of some western propaganda slinger.

By the way I am not obsessed by what Muslim women wear, although I find their outfits curious. Especially in light of the climate in middle eastern countties. It would seem that under an apparently heavy, black garment reaching from head to toe they'd have to be sweating like crazy.

Jihadist,

Actually I can't tell my father, he's dead. And I don't tell my husband because he and I have different work schedules. And why on earth would they be hysterical about my whereabouts as long as I am back home at a decent hour (say prior to nine p.m.)?

I am safe going out without having to wear Muslim clothing. Men do not harass me, they'd have a little something coming if they tried.

I understand the middle east is a hazardous place. But who says it'll be the woman who gets shot, could be the man as well. Who will carry him to the hospital?

Anyhow, I think you missed the gist of my question. I have been told that Muslim women are forbidden to socially interact with males unless accompanied by a male member of their household. I am just trying to find out if that is true and in keeping the the Koran, or if it is societal phenomenon of middle eastern societies where Islam is the predominant religion.

GABY
When you go out of your house, surely you tell your father or husband where you are going just so they know and not be hysterical not knowing where you are?

Muslim women do go out alone, whether single or married. In a chador, hijab or burqa, they are safe. Men never harassed them. And going out with a male member of the family in rather hazardous places like Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan is safer and makes sense. Who is going to carry you to the hospital if you got hurt by a bomb blast or bullet/s?

NZMAM,

Sorry about the typo re your name. Glad you got the joke about our Islamic garb. Only a Muslim can joke about such things eh :)

Here's one told to me told by an Iranian lady friend:

A shoplifter was caught on camera in a Tehran supermarket. Police are now looking for a person wearing a black chador.

And yes, it does not make sense why the west is obsessed about Muslim women wearing clothes like nuns. Must be their hangups about mysterious, exotic ladies in harems they saw and read about from 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century paintings and books.

The fashion designers of London, Paris and New York are the Ayatollahs and Popes of fashion. The fatwas of Vogue's editor, of what to wear this season is slavishly followed by the fashionistas.

NZMAM and VICTORIA:

Thanks for the answer. I was told that by some other people but wanted to hear it from a Muslim woman.

Also, the reference to nuns and Mary makes sense. I remember in earlier days that Catholic women covered their head in church.

I agree with the Hermit that Muslim women should be able to wear what they want. But I want to make sure they do so out of your own free will.

The next question I have is the one about being able to meet freely with others, including men, whithout having male supervision from a family member. Can you or can't you. And if not, why not?

Hmmmm,

Can anyone tell me why nuns cover their heads?

I would also like to know why all of the statues/pictures depicting Mary (May Allah be pleased with her) have her wearing a scarf over her head?

Oh, one more question,
Why do Jewish women wear wigs?

I know I can google these questions, but I'm so busy sometimes that I dread going through so many pages looking for a straight answer. (If no one here answers, then it will be inevitable)

@Jihadist

When you typed NIZAM, were you referring to me. My username is NZMAM, I have no idea who NIZAM is.

"The last I heard, Muslim women in the Middle East are removing their hijabs, chadors and burqas for the Tehran, Mecca, Baghdad or Kabul tan, but they really got sunburnt in the desert sun,and sand in very private parts of the body, so, back to the chadors, hijabs and burqas for them."

You know, this reminds me of something. When I was in college (Brooklyn, NY), I used to wear (and still do) a long veil. I stopped by a pharmacy on my way home and at the checkout there was a lady that was burnt to a crisp (over-tanned is such a light term to use.) When she saw me, she said. "I have been thinking about dreesing like you." I started laughing and she looked at me and said, "Really, I'm serious!"

The prescription for head-covering is not unique to Islam. The Mennonite Church I grew up in was pretty liberal on the subject,but others are stricter:

http://www.anabaptists.org/bh/t19.html

I'm with Victoria on this one; if a woman covers her head as her own choice, to show her devotion, that's fine. Sikh men wear a turban for the same reason. Banning it completely (as in France and Holland recently) is just as oppressive to those who choose freely to wear it as forcing someone to wear it.

Me, I cover my head, because the beautiful flowing ringlets of my rock n' roll youth have abandoned me, and my poor bald middle aged head gets cold in the winter...vanity is a fleeting thing...

Regards

A Hermit

Victoria,
My irritation re western obsession with what Muslim women wear, equating it with being "liberated", is because the majority of Muslim women live in developing/third world countries.

Getting access to better health, education, jobs and just to get out of poverty is the primary concern for these Muslim women, not what they wear. The western obsession on Muslim female garb subsumes all these larger issues for Muslim women in the third world.

Who cares about or really heard of Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others of their ilks in the wider Muslim world on their points about the state of Muslim women in history and currently designed for the western audience to perpetuate the notion of repressed and suppressed Muslim women? We know that already and better than them.

Better to read about the Muslim women's organizations in Islamic societies and what they are doing to improve the lot of their Muslim sisters. They did more on the ground than the likes of Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali can ever do in their rounds to seminars and conferences, at a very high fee I heard.

Yes, well, I am bringing third world perspectives in these On Faith threads which are too American centred and focussed. From what I have read here, foreigners knows more about America that Americans knows about the world. And very terrifying to know so, for the United States takes it upon itself to shape and resphape the world without fully understanding and/or ignoring the history, culture and religions in other countries.

its a mystery to me jihad- but out of deference to a respectful question asked by a poster here-

i live i america and wearing hijab hasnt really done me any service here- but i am the first to state when given respect for it-(from other well meaning muslims) that it is because i ave the freedom of choice- and that if it were imposed on me id be the first to rip it off and burn it- the negative responses dont usually bear a response-
(i have to be honest- niqabis scare me too)

but i had the option of not wearing one most of my life-

people certinly do preoccupy themselves with trivialities though---

Good Lord Nizam and Victoria! Why do Muslims and non-Muslims obsessed so much about what Muslim women wear or do not wear?

The last I heard, Muslim women in the Middle East are removing their hijabs, chadors and burqas for the Tehran, Mecca, Baghdad or Kabul tan, but they really got sunburnt in the desert sun,and sand in very private parts of the body, so, back to the chadors, hijabs and burqas for them.

I wonder why western men complained about the face veil that Muslim women wear in the streets but not when the belly dancers wear them.

Well, I don't wear a scarf, chador, hijab or burqa. No one asked me to, no one forced me to. But, it is the kind of country and society I live in. My family and friends who did so wore them out of personal political, cultural and religious convictions.

As for political convictions, it seems that nothing terrifies a westerner more than to see a Muslim women in full chador, burqa, hijab with a face veil - UFOs (Unindentified Female Objects).

And, in such so-called bogey gear, to demonstrate noisily in front of BBC and CNN on Iraq, Palestine and such, screaming insanely -"Death to whomever" to perpetuate the image.

Shall I wear a one for Halloween when I visit the United States just to terrify Americans?

sorry about that gaby- i wrote so many pages on the subject in this forum that i forgot to refer you-
i have to find it now-
thank you nzman- i remeber reading a line about not blindly following the ways of ones parents- and an exhortation to reas the Qur'an and if one finds what it contains valuable to use ones own reason to discern this(i paraphrase)
ill find it eventually-
salaams

Salaam,

1. There's one verse in Surah 27, verse 34 (If you don't know what the story is about, I suggest you read the whole thing, it's not too long and it would make better sense that way)

She said: "Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of it's people it's lowest; thus do they behave"
Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

2. Surah 21, verses 51 to 56 (doesn't mention anything about the Quran because it was revealed after the time of Prophet Ibraheem)

51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and We were well acquainted with him.

52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which you are so devoted?"

53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."

54. He said, "Indeed you have been in manifest error, you and your fathers"

55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"

56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He who created them (from nothing) and I am a witness to this truth"
Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

Vicoria, I hope you don't mind, but I want to try and answer Gaby's question about the head scarf (you can add anything as you see fit)

Hello GABY
The most important reason for women wearing a head scarf (AKA veil) is laid out in the Quran in simple terms, Chapter 24 (The Light) Verse 31

In that verse, Allah tells His final prophet to tell the believing women to not display their beauty and draw their veils over their bosoms. They are only allowed to reveal their beauty in front of their fathers, brothers, husbands, uncles, grandfathers, sons, nephews, step-sons, father-in-law, small children, other women, and very old men (who are no longer interested in women's beauty)

The reason why that it's only for women and not men is because the hair of the woman is like an adornment to her, if she's not that pretty it makes her look somewhat better and if she is pretty, it makes her look beautiful. Do you not know that some women spend hours trying to look their best before leaving the house, and if they plan to stay home the whole day they couldn't care less how they look. Well in Islam, it's supposed to be the other way around, look your best at home and dress modestly when you go out, which means wearing the veil, wearing long length, long-sleeved, loose-fitting, non-transparent clothes and no make-up or perfume (although unscented deoderant should be a must)

Peace

actually there are 2 questions i have- one is do you know where the verse is about the king ruling a country leading it to corruption? i think there is also someting about the despotic tyrant in there-

and te other is the one that says one must read the Qur'an themsleves and not blindly follow the ways of their fathers-

icant seemto find them-
salaams

I couldnt get the comments but looked at another article on jobs in the us paying less to muslims and was tempted to post as the queen of queens (as i live there) but it would have antagonized and thats not a good reason to do that also time for salah
salaaams

Salaam Victoria,

Did you check out the comments beneath the article? There are many people who like to judge Islam's treatment of women based on what they hear in the media without really knowing women's status in Islam.

I have seen a lot of instances where some just copy and paste ayat (verses) from the Quran to defend their ignorance about how women are supposed to be treated in Islam. The sad part is when one tries to explain it to them (using the tafseer or explanation of the Holy Quran) not only do they not want to hear it, but say things like "reading out of context" and "bad translations" are excuses and that whatever the verse says, that's what it means. Don't get me wrong, some actually make an effort to try and understand what Islam is about, especially in regards to women.

For example,
(Taken from page one at this discussion)
13. Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched (had contact) a woman lately. 4:43

This verse, like all of the other verses posted here, is way out of context. The actual verse is eight lines long (in English) five and a half lines long (in Arabic).

In the Quran, the statement "have had contact woman appears more than once. If you have limited or no knowledge of tafseer Al-Quran (explanation of the Quran, NOT translation) you would probably assume to touch or have contact with a woman is just what it says.

On the other hand, those Muslims and non-Muslims who want to know what Islam is REALLY about and take the time to research, they would know that "have had contact with women" means "have had sexual contact with women". In Islam, one is not allowed to pray in a state of sexual impurity. A shower is a must before prayers are offered.

When I say pray, I don't mean opening up your hands and asking Allah (God) for what you want, that's called supplicating (Arabic: Du'aa) That can be done whenever a person wants. By praying, I mean the formal prayers that a Muslim must observe five times daily.

I have very reasonable explanations to ALL of the verses that were submitted here on page one. Although I don't have the time to explain them one by one, I will gladly give anyone Islam's view about a certain verse, if asked.

Peace on those who follow guidance.

PS excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes, I was typing in a hurry. Time for Salah.

Peace

Christianity is the only religion that has truly brought about liberation for women.

There are many, many examples, but just to name one that came from Jesus, Himself:

When Mary sat at His feet while He was teaching, and He not only allowed her to be there but also praised her for 'picking the better part', He was not only breaking with tradition(women were not allowed to be taught, let alone being taught at the feet of a Rabbi with a room full of men!) but also was teaching others to do as He did.

As stated before, I could go on, and on, but to me, Jesus (Yeshua) is an AWESOME God!
Peace

Thanks Victoria! Can you explain the significance of the head scarf? Why is it for women and not for men?

I looked at the article nzman- what is the problemwith it? i had to go to the hospital 3 different times because i needed a breast cancer exam and each time there was a male doctor- it was rescheduled and cancelled twice- and out of a total of 5 separate appointments- it took 9 months to finally get the exam- if i were a nun would i have gotten that treatment?

they put in the idea that peole would want female circucision to scare people= it wasnt suggested by anyone at all- alcohol based drugs are also an issue- requesting same sex physicians really isnt a new idea at all- thats why there are an inordinate amount of muslim women doctors

gaby - i wear the head scarf and pants or long sleeves american style.

peace

Oops! Couldn't get the link directly to the article.

Well, if you're interested do the following:

At the homepage, next to the date and time, there are three blank drop-down windows.
First window choose Society and Culture
Second window choose Religion
Third window choose Muslim

The title of the article is:

"Call for Special Muslim Healthcare in UK"

Posts about women in Islam start less than half-way towards the end.

Women in Islam

Since I don't want to go through this all over again, click on the link.

http://shortnews.com

The title of the article has nothing to do with the content of what I posted, just some clarification about women in Islam.
ex. of statements answered:
So you believe that a burqa is a symbol of equality?
Menstruation is an illness
Women have similar rights to men, only men are better.
Women should inherit half of what a man gets.
Women are feeble and unable to think of plans
Women should cover their bodies
Touching a woman makes you dirty

Etc...

News Cynic says: "From your posts, Herm, you seem to be a non-Muslim (non-theist in general), but you are fine with Victoria."

Yup; like I said, I probably disagree with Victoria about all kinds of things (for example, I notice she cites Harun Yahya, whose views on science are absolutely appalling, in my opinion), and in general I have a lot of complaints about the often negative effects of all kinds of religious traditions but this narrow minded lumping together of all members of one faith with their worst elements is ridiculous.

I agree with you when you say "a bigger question is "How has the human race treated women." Or even, "How has the human race treated itself!" It's a question about human relationships and human behaviour. As a humanist that's exactly the kind of approach we should be taking to such questions.

Regards

A Hermit

Thanks for the education, Victoria! Obviously my knowledge about Islam is quite limited.

I certaily respect your views, but I still have a problem with reconciling your gentle interpretation of Islam with the Ayatollahs (awful, grim looking old men, who rule with an iron fist) in the middle east.

In any case, I wish you well! May more Muslims come to embrace their faith like you do!

Oh, one more question. I have always wondered? Do you dress in a western or middle eastern fashion? Not meant to stirr up controversy, just being nosy!

To Victoria & Hermit,

Let me begin by saying: God bless women! None of us would be here without them!

It's cool to see people defend those who see things differently. From your posts, Herm, you seem to be a non-Muslim (non-theist in general), but you are fine with Victoria. Good on you mate!

But what if we condemn not only the people rude to Victoria, but all the rude posters? Can we make value judgements against those who are easily offended? Or who broadly condemn all Muslims? Or Jews? Or people who hate all Wiccans or atheist?

(But what is "hate"? Ill will?)

In a way every one of us keeps making judgements about every one eases beliefs. Unless there is a world view that is objectively true above all other world views how is that possible?

Maybe no one has the right to judge Muslims. Or the Muslim treatment of women. And maybe no one has the right to judge Victoria. And maybe we have no right to judge those who judge Victoria? And that would mean I have no right to judge those who judge the folks judging Victoria! (Oooh. Brain hurts!)

Despite Victoria's powerful defense of Islam I think we would both agree that in the name of Islam women, Jews, non-Muslims, and even non-Arabs have on occasions been mistreated to some degree or other. So yes. Women have not done well under religion - but Christian men have killed Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim men as well. Then again - non-religious rulers like the Khans, the Huns, and in modern times Hitler, Stalin, and Mao have been brutal to a fair share of women as well. Hmmmm. Seems like a bigger question is "How has the human race treated women." Or even, "How has the human race treated itself!"

With an objective measuring stick for moral truth we can judge the behavior of an individual's treatment of women, or even a culture's abuse of women. We all seem to act as if such a measure exists. Now if only we could find it!

thank you again richard and hermit for your kind words of affirmation

salaams (peace)

i appreciate reasonable people- and they can come from anywhere- gaby- your assumptio is incorrect- there are 4 main schools of thought in islam- but they are different only in their philisophical leanings- some are easy and lenient- and some are pretty harsh- lke shafi- but when i go to pray i have no idea what the general attitude towards islam is of the person next to me- and honestly it isnt something people identify themselves as- there arent hanafi mosques for example- so while there are sunni and shia- which is basically a political split tht occurred early in islam- and there are occasional offshoots- like bahai (wich really is a muslim man who is considered a prophet by his followerswho creatred a new religion so its not really an islamic faction or anything) or the ahamidayas-
anyway- islamic behavior is just that- as dfescribed- if someone is acting beyond that and trying to oppress or control another- they are not actinfg as a muslim- but still it is not up to me or anyone to judge them-that is left to ALLAH-
salaams

Hmmmm; I guess I put too many links in my last comment for Washington Post's liking...

I'll try again: I may disagree with victoria about a lot of things, but I respect and admire her thoughtful, reasonable approach to the discussion the people attacking her in this forum are way out of line.

Concerned the Christian; you need to stop demanding that victoria speak out against "the Sunnis and the Shias" until you have explained why you haven't denounced the Protestants and the Catholics. After all, it was the Baptist Church that funded the terrorists in Tripura, and there were Catholic nuns convicted of participating in the genocide in Rwanda. Are you as a Christian responsible for the crimes of those Christians? If not, why do you insist that victoria, as a Muslim, share the guilt of Muslim extremists?

In short, get the beam out of your eye before looking for specks in anyone else's.

Regards

A Hermit

Viejita del Oeste,
Thank you for your appeal for people to actually know what they're talking about, and for the return of common decency on this thread.

I have followed many dialogues on On Faith since its beginning, and have read several hundred postings by Victoria. Nowhere has she said anything fanatical, rude or anything other than remarkably patient and polite, even in the face of appalling abuse and slander. Her description of her own conduct above, posted at 3:21 AM today, is entirely accurate.

I as an atheist admire her open-hearted and open-minded attitude. I have improved my own online conduct as a result of her example. I am grateful to her for that.

It is ironic that these threads about oppression of women seem to be producing the most abusive and dismissive remarks against female posters from those who claim to be championing oppressed women around the world.

The repetitive, even mechanical heckling of one of the harpy-like posters here indicates that rational appeals for fairness will have no positive effect. It is probably best to ignore trolls and hecklers, because responding to them in any way just feeds their narcissism and sadism, and degrades the conversation to a series of fruitless diatribes.

Let's get back to positive dialogue.

The question maybe needs to be replaced from, Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? to a statement! Religion is Man-Made and it is just as useless as a third eye, you can focus better with two and just a useless as two tongues it's hard to comprehend what your saying. Religion doesn't allow you to see clearly nor does it speak the truth.

Religion has nothing to do with God. Mute gods and false idols in any form wooden or stone, in words or deed, sacrifices or ceremonies all lead to a dead end. Religion is earthly bond it has no heavenly good.

That is what religion is about, worshiping,praising or praying to something that can't answer or create. Man has conjured the whole concept of religion,the truth is, Jesus came to destroy it. He says the only true religion is service to widow's and orphans. The only reason such a question and treatment exist is because man has in some cases not excepted the truth about our Lord and Savior. He saved and loved equally Jew and Gentile meaning those who believed and those who didn't, gender was not an issue.

The word religion is the problem, the so called religious folk get caught up in traditions of man instead of developing a relationship with God, (The God of the Bible, the One and Only True God!) "World Religions,World Mess" Take religion out of our vocabulary and replace it with relationship.

Yes, I am speaking from a very narrow minded point of view and I do so with a purpose. Jesus, is the way,the truth and the life. Some might say Christianity is a world religion, I say wrong, true Christian is a relationship with the creator of the universe and when I praise him giving him all the glory he loves it. He hears me and answers me and doesn't take into consideration I am female he sees me as his creation as his child. Praise The Lord!!!

Hi Victoria,

I just re-read your earlier post about women emancipation by Harun Yahya.

It does sound like Muslim women, at least at one time, have enjoyed much greater freedom that their Christian counterparts. One statement, however I found confusing:

"Therefore, it is impossible for a Muslim to have a bigoted approach to women. In a society where true Islamic morals are practiced, immense respect and sympathy will be shown to women, and it will be ensured that they can live in freedom and comfort."

If that statement is true, then millions upon millions of Muslims will have to go to the proverbial hell. What do you think?

Also, the statement about true Islamic morals, makes me wonder. Assuming that Islam has as many variations as the Christian churches (i.e., Chatholics, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, ETC.......) which one teaches and practices the true Islamic morals? Which, of course, leads to the next question, how do you know that whoever you chose is the right one?

By the way, that holds true for the Christians as well.

I'm amazed by the sheer depth of ignorance shown by at least half the posters on this site. Where do I begin?
I'm not a Baptist myself, but I always thought members of that church were taught their own doctrine...For example, predestination does not mean behavior doesn't matter. A good Calvinist doesn't follow God's law out of fear, but out of respect and love of the Lord. You can't "Work your way into Heaven" but your saved nature and knowledge of God's grace should be evident in your acts. How is it that I (a Catholic) am aware of this and all these self-described Baptists are not?
Sally Quinn's column is beyond dumb, but at least she is forthright about her lack of expertise. I'm not sure what intellectual abyss some of the rest of you dwell in.
And I missed whatever it was that Victoria posted that would indicate that she is a fanatic. If the rudeness shown to her is considered Christian behavior, then I'm embarrassed for my community.

o for goodness sake liberated it is ridiculous in the extreme to criticize me for what I HAVENT SAID!

mercy you are stretching for reasons to be angry

i also havent had unkind words for atheists- mormons-hindus-buddhists-secularists-agnostics-jewish
people-pagans-zorasrtrians-libertarians-maoists-nihilists
dolphins-vegetarians-trance channelers-snake-handlers-christians-wiccans-nudists-
congressmen-

even you liberated---

Victoria,

Your moderate/kind words about Islam are not the problem. Your support of Islam however is since it supports terrorists "hell-bent" on making this world Islamic by suicide bombings, butchery, stonings and daily threats of nuclear attack by the Moslem crazies in Iran.

Some very unkind words on your part for Islamic terrorists have not been made.

Some very unkind words on your part about Islamic militancy and treatment of women in the Koran have not been made.

As this country was built on the premise of freedomof religion- and this is a site called on faith- and a question about women in religion-
i really dont feel that i have to censor my views to please anyone-

i am never rude- i never comment on anothers belief systemunless i am finding a similarity and a positvity in it-

there realy is no room for judging others here-
we are all people - some of us believe n god- some dont- our prejudices and biases should be aired in a different site-

every religious tradition has a history of abusing its weakest members-
because traditions are formed by people and people comprise the history of this world-
also non- religious traditions have managed to oppress and abuse its women-

women are just in the blipof history starting to have the means to communicate from an empowered position- some men help us- but we really need to take our own destinies in our own hands,
and define our own selves-
otherwise we will continue to let others define us for us-

and that hasnt really worked out for us, has it?

really judgementalism- prejudice- bias and pre-cnceived negative stereotypes are ugly no matter whose mouth they come out of-

while this is supposed to be a question about ill treatment of women in the past onaccount of religion-
i am experiencing here a very present and real attempt by some small minds to censor my chosen religion-

i would say it is inherently unaerican to do so-

i intend to be alive for some time to come and will continue expressing myself and respecting others beliefs as well.

salaams

What a country, but does not understand islam.I hope one day we will get rid of all these muslim devils.
Former Muslim

Victoria,

What side of the mountain do you live on? On this side, Islamic women have no equality in Islam. Get out ASAP singing the Song of St. Francis as you slam the door on the Islamic shame of suicide bombers, butchery and stoning.

victoria
sh1: y? n? plz x 3?

PAT thank you for your beautiful thoughts

liberated quit misrepresenting me i think youre doing it for attention

you know as ive told you many times i was not borna muslim but proudly became one

you know because you asked me why i converted 12 posts up at 12:41

women have equality in islam as do people of all races
period

Victoria,

Live the sham of your religion. No thinking person is going to accept Islam except by the accident of birth until Islamic women are equal to Islamic men and until the Sunnis and Shiites stop the butchery and live like mature, rational humans and sing the Song of St. Francis together.

"Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon,
Where there is doubt, faith,
Where there is despair, hope,
Where there is darkness, light,
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be
consoled, as to console;
To be understood, as to understand;
To be loved, as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive---
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life."

In Nichiren Buddhism, there is the teaching that women can attain enlightenment along with men and all other life.

The Lotus Sutra, Devedatta Chapter elucidates the teaching of women and evil person's can also attain enlightenment equal to Shakyamuni Buddha. In other words ALL life is equal; men, women, children, birds, trees, etc...

My desire is that women are seen as equal in the world of faith, along with all other life, as the SGI does.

I am a Black male, 54 years old. I grew up in Black Methodist tradition. I obserevd nothing in my religous experience of women that did not align with the treatment of women in the larger society. What I did observe in faith communities was a greter commitment to the full acceptance of "who so ever will" come forward in faith. I have seen the young unwed, never married, and party girl with a call to preach and serve grudgingly accepted and eventually honored for her service. I have seen women lead ushers, choirs, steward boards, trustee boards, congregations, and churches as they have grown to lead shifts, departments, and companies in the greater society.

I consider myself spiritual and religous. I grow tired condemnation of the religion without consideration of societies without religion.

Your debate leaves out current events, and some not so current. A woman is the head of the Episcopal Church in the United States (The Presiding Bishop). Historically, the head of the Church of England has been the king or queen. It was Elizabeth II who established the Anglican Church, and the Current Defender of the Faith is the current Queen.

st francis did not have a doctrine liberated- he lived in complete imitation of christ- based o thomas a kempis- what writings of st francis?
trumping what?
have you ever READ the imitation of christ?
we are lowly worms and will always be lowly worms-
hmph
yes indeed XANOBIA- but they are more than words- more than a billion people all over the world are attempting to live them- all we hear about are the insane fringes-
there are bad people everywhere-
i noticed after 911 how everyone became an authority on islam- when i try to search something islamic i have to wade through pages of phony sites put up by people who want to mislead and misrepresent- so much energy seems tobe spent trying to prove the hatred of another-

liberated- quit bothering me with that question you are obsessing on-
i dont answer you because of the rudeness you have exhibited towards me in the past.

i am not stupid to be set up by your bad intentions again-
fool me once shame on you- but fool me 5 times then shame on you
unless you write to me like a person without crazy implicilty accusatory questions i am not going to repsond anymore

you frame your crazy question in a way that thereis no good answer nomatter what i say youllhave some triumphant anti-answer

its not up to you to tell me who to condemn or support
to quote eric cartman
i do what i want

youre right pam
let the headbangers bang
salaams

Victoria, those are nice words. I don't see many muslim societies living by them, though.

It's interesting that so many people choose to attack other people rather than just state their own beleif. Why is the power struggle the main point? It only leads to another battle of "my opinion is better than your opinion" - which is in essence saying that "I" am better than "YOU" - which in the end is no different than saying "man" is better than "woman". Is it too difficult to realize that we are equal, yet have different strengths and roles to play in the world? Does our diversity make one of us "better" than the other? Our diversity is intentional and should create a synergism that blesses us all.
I personally beleive that we are the spirit offspring of a mother and father in Heaven who know us and still guide and direct us as we seek their knowledge and wisdom. I beleive the equality and oneness of these two beings, working individually according to their strengths and yet one in purpose - is one of the great beauties of life and is the model for my life to follow as I live as a human being on this earth co-existing with male and female alike. We each have different roles and as we occupy them in a place of love and respect for one another then we all thrive. Do I beleive that Women have fared badly over the ages? Yes, religiously, as well as socially and politically, but the truth of our day continues to be revealed to us and our understanding continues to grow. We are all capble of understanding that as human beings we each deserve respect. The mutual love and respect that we should all have for each other should exist regardless of our so called "place" in life. And as we focus our energy on that - the mutual love and respect for one another - the rest will fall easily into place. We have the opportunity to create a new mind-set based on the truths of our day - not the religious or social inadequacies of the past. In the end, there is a common thread that basically runs through all religions -
"do unto others as you have them do unto you".

It's interesting that so many people choose to attack other people rather than just state their own beleif. Why is the power struggle the main point? It only leads to another battle of "my opinion is better than your opinion" - which is in essence saying that "I" am better than "YOU" - which in the end is no different than saying "man" is better than "woman". Is it too difficult to realize that we are equal, yet have different strengths and roles to play in the world? Does our diversity make one of us "better" than the other? Our diversity is intentional and should create a synergism that blesses us all.
I personally beleive that we are the spirit offspring of a mother and father in Heaven who know us and still guide and direct us as we seek their knowledge and wisdom. I beleive the equality and oneness of these two beings, working individually according to their strengths and yet one in purpose - is one of the great beauties of life and is the model for my life to follow as I live as a human being on this earth co-existing with male and female alike. We each have different roles and as we occupy them in a place of love and respect for one another then we all thrive. Do I beleive that Women have fared badly over the ages? Yes, religiously, as well as socially and politically, but the truth of our day continues to be revealed to us and our understanding continues to grow. We are all capble of understanding that as human beings we each deserve respect. The mutual love and respect that we should all have for each other should exist regardless of our so called "place" in life. And as we focus our energy on that - the mutual love and respect for one another - the rest will fall easily into place. We have the opportunity to create a new mind-set based on the truths of our day - not the religious or social inadequacies of the past. In the end, there is a common thread that basically runs through all religions -
"do unto others as you have them do unto you".

BIG MOUTH AND CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

I like the way you think.

Although I believe in a supreme being, I have renounced organized religion a very long time ago. For every positive I have found in the teachings, I found something repulsive. That goes for the Bible as well as the Koran.

I can respect peoples rights to believe what they want, but I truly think that if they were more critical of the dogma they are bring fed by zealous demagogues, the world would be a better place.

AS far as women being treated lousy be the worlds religion, maybe so. But I think it's more a social problem. As long as women are willing to be submissive to men, for whatever reason, things won't change.

Big Mouth,

Some refinements:

--------- the Twelve Commandments Rule!!!!
plus (The Eight Commandments if you are an atheist)
a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.
b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.
c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.
d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.
e. Christ’s Spirit resides in Heaven with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.
f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.
g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception.
h. Happiness in Heaven is not a gradient but is dependent on the number of souls present.
i. Purgatory is possible but has no Scriptural foundation.
j. Hell is possible but would God tolerate Satan spirits and contaminated souls?
k. God does not know the future.
l. Predestination should not be a word.
m. Canonization of the likes of Pio and Juan eliminates any consideration of papal infallibility.
n.Exodus should not be a word.
o. ditto for the Christmas manger.
p. The Eucharist is a fantastic spirit symbol of our thanksgiving but body and blood do not exist there. Continued crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous.
q. Confirmation is only symbolic of our adult acceptance of the Christ’s rules for humanity and our belief in God.
r. Dividing God into three parts violates the first Commandment.
s. Substituting God in place of any reference to the Holy Spirit
t. Holy Orders is relevant but not complete without access by females and married members.
u. Religions are slowly converging. See James Somerville’s “take” at http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/mayjune2000/exclusivism/ and http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/julyaugust2000/somerville/
v. As per Somerville, “Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door” i.e. there is no religion in Heaven.
w. Lourdes et al as per Crossan prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith.
x. As per Crossan, Westar E-discussion group, 6/14/03, message 20213, “I said that There was hardly a single miracle I was sure of as an historical event even though I was absolutely sure that Jesus was a healer.
y. An act of contrition with repentance and life style changes by anyone of any faith or even no faith should be sufficient for soul cleansing.
z. The Old Testament is so full of untruths and embellishments, its content is of little historical relevance but of prime spiritual importance.

I would like to submit some "food for thought":

1. Jesus is merely a dead Jew.
2. All the Bibles of the world and all religions of the world are man made.
3. All religions are driven by fear and guilt. Without these elements we would have no need to worship or make sacrifices to an invisible and imaginary "friend".
4. All Bibles (mostly writen by men) degrade women starting with Eve being responsible for all our sins and continuing with the burning of witches just a few hundred years ago. Superstition and fear caused women to be burned at the stake if they were misunderstood.
5. This will continue as long as we keep mentally indoctrinating our children (brainwashing) by implanting religious fear in their little open minds.
6. Religious people are bound by fear. They fear God, Jesus, Hell, Satan, and just everything concerning their religion.
7. Athiests and nonbelievers have learned to overcome these fears or somehow avoided the childhood brainwashing that most of us have been forced to endure.
8. Do you really think we should take a lession from the Mid-Eastern Countries and teach our religion in our Schools? Hey, then we could really have a World War - Fanatic against Fanatic, right?
9. I propose that a survey of insane people would show that most are or were "religious" people.
10. Yes, humans are Animals of the Earth. DNA analysis pretty much proves that. We have even transplanted organs and body parts from other animals successfully. I could go on but I think you get the idea. Praise Jesus.

the concrete bottom line of life.
humaneings restrain one another.
liberals in america advocate god-free society,women looseness,abortionism,same marriegism,homosexuality,lesbinism,.no wonder,people of usa voted for george bosh,is he right or wrong? if he will to be replaced with hillary clinton,is it better or worth,we all on a serious mission .

Victoria,

The problem is that you still have not denounced the Shiites and Sunnis. They kill and hate in your God's name and in the names of some possible descendent of Mohammed today and will do it again tomorrow. This is real time butchery and requires Muslims to rethink their commitment to the Koran that teaches such inane stupidity.

Are you Shiite or Sunni? And why? The teachings of St. Francis trumps anything found in the Koran. Why did you renounce the Franciscans?

Victoria, they are never going to let you alone. Take a rest from the battle. I understand completely what you are trying to say but it is a losing battle on here.

I respect the fact that you are trying to explain your part in all of this but it is like beating your head against a brick wall to do that.

Take care

P.S. I got my share on another thread and have sworn off confronting anyone as it just keeps getting worse.

liberated- do you think that there are only shia and sunni in iraq or what?
what other groups are there?

every group of people every where has killed each other at one time or another-
what exactly is your point?
that its wrong to kill each other in war?
i think weve all pretty well i a general consensus agree on that point- it was covered pretty well in te last question.

what does that have to do with women in religion?

are you pretending thT YOU CARE About the women and children in iraq?

you hate muslims!
so what is your point?

stop following me everywhere i post with this same inane comment-

dont you have anything else to do?
i certainly do-

Victoria,

Your review noted: "Thus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam."

But yet Sunnis and Shiites, the two largest groups in Islam, on a daily basis butcher each others women and children in senseless bombings. I reiterate: Islam is a sham as a way of life.

HERE IS WHAT ISLAM SAYS ABOUT WOMEN

t © 1999-2007 Muslim Women's League. All Rights Reserved. This information is protected by the copyright laws of the United States.
Contact us for more information.

The Eminence Islam Attaches To Women

by Harun Yahya

Harun Yahya

The position of women in Islam has recently been an issue of debate. Some misconceptions arise, either from traditional practices which are thought to be "Islamic," but are not, or else from prejudices. However, the real issue is how women are regarded in the Islamic faith, and when we look at this, we see that Islam gives women great social value, freedom and comfort.

Women in the Qur'an

God's commandments about the status of women and the relations between men and women, which have been revealed to us through the Qur'an, consist of full justice. In this regard, Islam suggests equality of rights, responsibilities and duties between the two genders. Islam is based on sympathy, tolerance and respect for human beings, and does not discriminate against women in this matter.

The examples of good morals communicated to us in the Qur'an are universally compatible with human nature, and are valid for all stages of history.

Respect for women and women's rights fall within this. In the Qur'an God insists that the tasks and responsibilities of women are the same as those of men. Furthermore, while performing these tasks and responsibilities men and women must help and support each other:

The men and women of the believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong, and establish prayer and pay alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All Wise. (Qur'an, 9:71)

God emphasizes that believers will be rewarded in the same manner according to their deeds, regardless of their gender.

Their Lord responds to them: 'I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female - you are both the same in that respect... (Qur'an, 3:195)

Anyone who acts rightly, male or female, being a believer, We will give them a good life and We will recompense them according to the best of what they did. (Qur'an, 16:97)

In another verse, Muslim men and women are considered together, and it is stressed that both have the same responsibility and status in God's sight:

Men and women who are Muslims, men and women who are believers, men and women who are obedient, men and women who are truthful, men and women who are steadfast, men and women who are humble, men and women who give alms, men and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember Allah much: Allah has prepared forgiveness for them and an immense reward. (Qur'an, 33:35)

In the Qur'an there are many more verses stating that men and women are exactly equal in terms of their tasks and responsibilities and their rewards or punishments in return. There are a few differences in social issues, but these are for the comfort and protection of women. The commands of the Qur'an regard the congenital differences between the two genders resulting from their creation, and suggest a system maintaining equal justice for men and women in this light.

Islam does not see women as objects. Therefore, it is not seen appropriate that a woman of good morals should marry a man of bad morals. In the same way, it is not permitted for a woman of bad morals to marry a man of good morals:

Corrupt women are for corrupt men and corrupt men are for corrupt women, Good women are for good men and good men are for good women. The latter are innocent of what they say. They will have forgiveness and generous provision. (Qur'an, 24:26)

Also as regards marriage, the duties and responsibilities of couples towards each other require equality. God demands that both spouses be protective of and supervise each other. This duty is expressed in the Qur'an in the following words.

They are covers for you and you for them... (Qur'an, 2:187)

Many rules and commandments exist in the Qur'an regarding the protection of women's rights on marriage. Marriage is based on the free will of both parties; the husband has to provide economic support for his wife (4:4); the husband has to look after his ex-wife after divorce (65:6).

The Islamic Emancipation of Women
As the verses make clear, Islam brings justice to male-female relations and puts an end to harmful practices resulting from customs and traditions of pre-Islamic societies. One example is the situation of women in pre-Islamic Arab society. The pagan Arabs regarded women as inferior, and having a daughter was something to be ashamed of. Fathers of daughters sometimes preferred to bury them alive rather than announce their birth. By means of the Qur'an, Allah prohibited this evil tradition and warned that on the Judgment Day such people will definitely have to account for their actions.

In fact, Islam brought with it a great emancipation for women, who were severely persecuted in the pagan era. Prof. Bernard Lewis, known as one of the greatest Western experts on the history of Islam and the Middle East, makes the following comment:

In general, the advent of Islam brought an enormous improvement in the position of women in ancient Arabia, endowing them with property and some other rights, and giving them a measure of protection against ill treatment by their husbands or owners. The killing of female infants, sanctioned by custom in Pagan Arabia, was outlawed by Islam. But the position of women remained poor, and worsened when, in this as in so many other respects, the original message of Islam lost its impetus and was modified under the influence of pre-existing attitudes and customs. 1

Karen Armstrong, another Western expert on Islam, makes the following comment:

We must remember what life had been like for women in the pre-Islamic period when female infanticide was the norm and when women had no rights at all. Like slaves, women were treated as an inferior species, who had no legal existence. In such a primitive world, what Muhammad achieved for women was extraordinary. The very idea that a woman could be witness or could inherit anything at all in her own right was astonishing. 2

In fact, during the many centuries that followed Prophet Muhammad, women of the Islamic societies had a much higher social position than the women of Christendom. Karen Armstrong emphasizes that, during the Middle Ages;

... the Muslims were horrified to see the way Western Christians treated their women in the Crusader states, and Christian scholars denounced Islam for giving too much power to menials like slaves and women. 3

Anna King, a modern Muslim woman and a convert - or, better to say, a revert - to Islam, explains the Islamic emancipation of women as follows:

Islam first gave women their rights in a time when women were nothing but the property of men. Islam gave women the right to buy and sell on their own, own businesses and express her views politically. These were all basic rights which the American woman was not granted until relatively recently! It also encouraged women to study and learn Islamic knowledge, breaking a ban which several religions had stipulated, which forbid women to acquire any religious knowledge or touch religious texts... It also abolished the practice of marrying a woman without her consent. Thus, one would have to be very stubborn indeed to refuse such obvious facts and proofs that Islam was women's first liberator.

The tendencies to see women as "an inferior species" who has no right for education and that must be totally secluded from the society arose much later in the Islamic world, as a result of deviations from the right Qur'anic path.

Conclusion

Thus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam.

In fact, devout women are depicted as good examples for mankind in the Qur'an. One is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. Another is the wife of the Egyptian Pharaoh who, despite her husband's wickedness, is also described as an ideal Muslim. (see, 66:11-12) The Qur'an also describes very gentle conversations between the Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (27:42-44), and between Moses and two young ladies (28:23-26), which symbolize the civilized social relationship between the two genders.

Therefore, it is impossible for a Muslim to have a bigoted approach to women. In a society where true Islamic morals are practiced, immense respect and sympathy will be shown to women, and it will be ensured that they can live in freedom and comfort.

The fundamental rule in Qur'anic exegesis is ensuring that the derived meaning is in conformity with the integrity of the Qur'an. When this is considered, it is seen that all the rules mentioned to us by Allah regarding women form a social structure allowing them to live in the most comfortable and happiest way. In a society where all the moral values mentioned by Islam are practiced comprehensively, the social position of women becomes even more exalted than in societies that we today regard as modern.

THANK YOU FOR READING THIS

The question invalidates all the major religions on the planet. If they get it so wrong about women, what could they possibly ever get right?

I know, children are born evil. Yeah, I get it now.
Boy, I wish I went to Yale, like George Bush, so I too could discover gin and Jesus at the same time. (I look good in a raccoon coat and turned-up hat.) Go Yalies, go! Directly to the inner streets of Baghdad, I hope.

Anonymous:

"Ok I'll take the "Plunge". If humans are't animals what are we."

We are animals. But that is not a moral statement, it's one of biological classification. Just because we are animals does not mean we are exactly the same as all animals. Fish and dogs are both animals, but that doesn't mean that they both breathe water through gills. The argument that admitting we are animals means we should treat each other like, say, ticks, just makes no sense. We are particular sorts of animals: in our case, animals capable of all sorts of abstract reasoning, social empathy, and moral values for each other.

"I very earnest here. You have given me a bunch of rage but nothing to chew on. If you were to cut down on the emotion for a bit wouldn't you have to agree that we are animals? That we hairless apes?"

I never said anything with rage, and I never said anything about us not being apes. We aren't even hairless ones: we have the exact same placement of follicular structures as all other apes: our hair just happens to be much finer and grows shorter.

"Sure we have more brain power than the rest of the poor beats on this chunk of space rock, but what of it?"

Well, one thing of it is that we have the ability to abstract moral principles and apply them to situations and demand that we be consistent, and so forth. That sort of thing seems to be a lot of it.

"Dolphins have more than anything else perhaps."

You're confused here. Dolphins may or may not have a higher IQ than some humans based on problem solving skill, but this is not the same thing as "brain power" (such a vauge and useless term). There is no evidence as of yet that dolphins have the same sort of deep prepositional concept of language, let alone abstracted principles the way people do. They might of course, in which case that would be very interesting and neat, no?

"If human beings are just animals then perhaps how we treat women is not a moral question (there are no moral questions) but rather a matter of biology."

Your entire premise is nonsense. Whether or not we are animals or not has no bearing on the rightness of wrongness of morality.

"Do we judge other apes for beating women?"

We don't have evidence that apes make moral judgements in the same way we do, so, no. So what? We, humans, are particular sorts of animals that DO, unlike other animals, make such judgments.

"Do we judge lions for having a harem? Do we criticize female spiders for killing their mates? Why do we even ask the question of religion and women."

Because human beings are not spiders or lions. By your extremely strained logic, we should have furry manes and eight eyes too. But we don't. So if we are not like these other animals in every way just by virtue of being animals, why should our moral concepts be exactly like theirs either?

"And if we are robots then we are simply programed to be easily offended or hard headed or self-righteous or cruel."

Thinking about animals and robots in the way you are is simply a bunch of very poor analogies. All you are doing is imagining some things and the attitudes that humans generally have towards those things and then trying to shoehorn that into human beings. It doesn't work like that.

"Women have not done well under religion - but Christian men have killed Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim men as well. Then again - non-religious rulers like the Khans, the Huns, and in modern times Hitler, Stalin, and Mao have been brutal to a fare share of women as well."

Nitpick, but Hitler was hardly "non-religious." He invoked the name of God CONSTANTLY to justify his ideology. In his later years, he turned on the Christianity that gave him his start, but even then he believed in a God.

"Seems like a bigger question is "How has the human race treated women." Or even, "How has the human race treated itself!"

Well sure, that is a bigger question. But we can ask the little question as well. How has religion treated women, historically? Not very well at all.

I don't think it's just a coincidence that the rapid secularization of the West happened right around the exact same time as women began to demand and be afforded civil rights for something like the first time in modern human history, for instance.

news of the underground.
chapter:crime and punishment.
at the grave hole,all are on transit status,wating for the day of judegement,some receive honorable hospitality,some get the disgrace.it depends,what the individual done above the ground,is certainly registered for him or against him or her.while on transit,the man or woman watch and see his or her abode in both,paradise and the hell fire,to eye ball the difference for himself or herself and to see what he or she brought upon themselfs.life and death is, life and death ,life subject for both men and women or women and men.

Victoria,

Well at last you have condemned the activities of the Taliban. Time now for you to condemn the activities of the Sunnis and Shiites.

To those who quote the Quran has it been considered that whoever wrote the Quran wasn't very good at writing or communicating clearly!!

On the other hand, whoever wrote it (probably a team over many year) may have deliberately left it so that trolls could cite a passage to support their position!

It doesn't give the god of Abraham much credit; then maybe Abraham ....

Adam become lonely and asked God for a companion which God, understanding loneliness, done as Adam asked and created woman. Before eating the apple, both man and woman were named Adam. God told Adam to watch over her, protect her, and be told the laws God had set in the Garden of Eden. When the serpent came and tempted woman, Adam was there with her. Both sinned equally. The woman eating the fruit and Adam not only letting her eat the fruit but taking a bite of it as well. Afterwards the woman become know as Eve and both her and Adam were casted out of the garden of eden. God never created woman for Adam but rather Adam asked for someone to complete him.

liberated i told you already i answered you onthe other post where you asked this same question

do not harrass me.

its not to you i posted and is my own affair what i choose to post

Victoria,

Please address the conduct of the Sunnis, Shiites and Taliban. Don't copy some flowery praises from the Koran.

it all boils down to how were you raised and if you had parents who believed in God. God has alot to do with it. It's reality and it's time alot of younger wemon started realizing this. I am 23 and I see wemon my age bringing alot of dishonor to people my age because of parents not bringing them up under biblical truths. Wemon in the bible were more honorable then then they are now.

"Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward." (33:35)

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the desires (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well acquainted with all that you do. (Qur'an 4:135)

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women--fear Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you. (Qur'an 4:1)

The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. (Qur'an 9:71)

It is also based on the statement of Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), “ Oh Mankind! Your Lord is One. Your (grand) father is one. All of you belong to Adam (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Adam is created of soil (earth dirt). Truly, the most honorable person in the Sight of Your Lord, the Almighty Allah, is the most pious among you. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab. There is no superiority for a non-Arab over an Arab. There is no superiority for a red (race) person over a white person. Likewise, there is no superiority of a white over a red (race) person except for the level of piety (mindfulness of God, the Almighty Allah in life and practices)”[18].

peace

i answered you in the other forum where you posted this same question liberated

Victoria,

You still have not addressed the butchery of the Sunnis and Shiites and the beatings (and worse) of women by the Taliban. The three groups are representative of the weakness of Islam as a way of life.

Victoria, That is a translation and as you pointed out to me, they can't be trusted.

There is no way to compromise this statement

This is from the Qur'an:

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

it is what it is

peace

news of the underground.
chapter:gender equality.
at the grave hole,all are back to their origin dirt.all are belivers,all eye balled it ,all heared it ,all touched it,all taste it.no hole for uncertainty,no hole for freedom,no hole for escape.news of the underground is so serious,donot leave home without it.

Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?

Women have indeed fared badly in the world's religions down through the ages--that is quite obvious--but the interesting question is why this has been the case.

It seems very few people are willing to look at the stark fact that society itself down through the ages has been an ugly process of working toward the freedoms we take for granted in the democratic nations today.

Society down through the ages has been primarily a battle of man with himself--a terrible process of creating the checks and balances we admire today.
Man was not so much against woman as trying to come to grips with himself--and woman of course suffered horribly in the process.

People today in their defense of women seem to forget that for centuries upon centuries even most types of men had a difficult time in society--in other words only certain types of men enjoyed the highest positions. Just look at the history of the men we call geniuses today...

It was a brutal process of getting to a position of being able to assess what we today call human capital. Much work had to go into putting envy, jealously, etc. aside and just consider people as they are in their differences.

And we are still very far from having arrived at the ideal of truly assessing people and accepting the differences without discrimination (discrimination in the negative sense of course).

What we call democracy today is a society in which people are given equal opportunity to display differences although we of course are at the reduced level of declaring people equal in ability and not yet concerned with truly getting at differences and capitalizing on them.

The question is if we ever can get at truly capitalizing on differences...

I would say that the true problems lie ahead and are far from being past.

People seem to believe that women are now free--in fact femininists have this myth of woman having heroically fought all throughout history against evil man in order to manifest her "obviously" equal intelligence and of course superior nurturing ability (and woman is of course not as violent as man)--but the genetic sciences are running full steam ahead and it is only a matter of time that we all will be assessed in a fashion which will make every invasion of privacy of the past seem like utopia...

In other words we had better get prepared to truly be able to recognize and live with differences because they are about to be thrust in our faces as never before.

Of course if woman is truly equal to man--is different only in physical strength and in being less violent--then the process will be smoother (I deliberately avoid considerations of differences between races).

But what if other differences between men and women show up? Can we live with the differences?
I would say not...We seem depressingly incapable of even questioning such differences as mathematical, scientific, musical ability, etc.

It might seem we have made great strides in the democratic societies against religious iniquities against women, but the democratic societies today are largely creations by men for the purpose of checking men in every sense of that word--which is to say preventing abuses of power and getting at useful differences between men.

Women have only consequentially benefitted from this birth of democracy by man for man--which is to say as the rarer and stranger men have become increasingly tolerated women have become increasingly tolerated as well.

But this has been only a setting of the stage to truly consider human beings--truly lay all the differences and similarities out on the table as it were and see what we have to work with.

And the question is what the spread of humanity in such a manner is about to reveal...

Can we live with all the cards on the table?

Once again, I think not...

Take the United States: We have the Republicans against evolution (or rather a significant number of religious folk against such) and presumably for conservative values concerning women (read into that what you will), but on the other hand we have the democratic party for evolution yet also for socialism, and in general the democratic party being for nurture against nature when it suits them: women "discriminated against" and no real biological differences; gay people biologically gay and not with effect on the straight population (which seems anti the fact of rampant homosexuality in classical society--unless the Greeks, for example, were more biologically gay than us, which would be an interesting finding); black people equal to white and simply "discriminated against"...You get the point: Society still seems incapable of truly considering human differences without either discriminating to the point of violence or trying to cover up differences with every excuse...

I would say things are only going to get worse. We are going to embrace the genetic sciences (at least a significant number of us are) and that is going to open up a gulf between people as never before--and before most of the human population ever truly frees women or arrives at prosperity.

The question really is which in the long run will test our patience: Science or religion?

Of course we cannot just return to the past...

But can we live with the differences between ourselves science is about to open up?

Democratic societies today seem in something of a utopia: Men have created enough checks and balances to release gifted men and even women to benefit society, but we have not arrived yet at a true scrutiny of human ability, differences and similarities...

It would be wise to steel ourselves for the worst...We know for example that men die in automobile accidents at a greater rate than women and make up more of the prison population. Men can be said to be more violent than women. But on the other hand there seems to be evidence that men are better at math, musical composition and the hard sciences...

Can we live with the differences? If not...can we somehow genetically engineer people to have relatively equal abilities if we cannot put our envy, jealousy, etc. aside as differences between people appear?

All tough questions...but it seems the advance of the human race depends on becoming so acute to differences between people that we can speak of becoming sensitive to microdifferences and...capitalizing on them.

Morality moving in that direction...

A simple reflection on man and woman and the human race....

When Starhawk came out with the orginal version of the "Spiral Dance," it was one of the most important books in shaping my ideas and practices. Then, she came out with a rewritten version many years later that completely undermined the ancient central imagery of Goddess religions and played into the immediate feminist political goals of the 1980s. The
Goddess was no longer the major figure in "The Sacred Marriage" but a role model for women. In about 1996, I went to a reading she did at a bookstore in Portland OR. I was the only man in the room. Now she's working for Newsweek and the Washington Post? She's come a long way. But that's alright. As our culture and the world social order it ordains and nurses falls apart with increasing speediness, I must wonder if some part of that, in addition to corporate greed and technologic over-abundance, at least on the level of our collective social unconscious mind, is not attributable to the bitter antagonism that has arisen between the sexes. If that isn't where the real cynacism, anger and pessimism lies?
Victor Greentree, CircleoftheEarth.org

What a stupid question.

Hello Mother (Can I call you Mom?)

Your question was: "Has humanity, comprised of men and women both of mothers, fared well under the worlds religions?" The answer is oft times very badly - and anyone who thinks their faith is not guilty here is either blind, unaware of the historical facts, or just a fan boy (or girl).
Still we know that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao alone killed and tormented far more people than all the wars of all the religions in history combined (this is because of the population explosion). Add in the Huns and Monguls and others who killed without religious motivation and you see my point. man is inhuman in his treatment of his fellow man.

Religion is most times just a convenient tool for doing this.

Simply put, religion is man's explanation for the unknown. Religion is all in the mind of humans.

Man is afraid of a woman's power of sexual choice (when not upsurped by rape). He is afraid that she will go with another and bear "other fruit." To allay his fears, he makes rules (creed) governing how to interact with women. Women use these rules to keep their men. Organized religions are created by men, therefore, they are not good to women because of this basic fear. Women are the enemy and must be "controlled" as much as possible.

Men: We are not the enemy. We are just another sex. We cannot be controlled, even if you hide us behind a veil. We can still choose another...in our hearts.

If we treat each other with love and care, we will never stray.

We are the one who gives life and yet, religions have treated us as subhuman! The world would be a much better place without religions. Period.

Don't you find what Yakov Phillips had to say about women attaining the same position of equality as men so the wings on the bird will be equal and the bird can fly ridiculous? I find it odd that when one considers the fact that men have totally abused their position of power until we ask how well women have fared under their dominance that the idea is for women to attain mans position. Do women need to become tyrants and have the power to inflict mass suffering on their own as well as that of other cultures to attain this place of equality Yakov? Really women are the ones who have always been in the supreme position of power, unwilling to subject another human. Men need to get to a womans level so the wings may fly!

I do believe the wrong question has been asked.
The question of concern is not of women, but of mothers, and then of course of children and then of course of men and women and the future of humanity.

Has humanity, comprised of men and women both of mothers, fared well under the worlds religions? I think the answer to that question is screaming so loudly we simply do not hear it as we tune out by asking the wrong question all together.

I do believe the wrong question has been asked.
The question of concern is not of women, but of mothers, and then of course of children and then of course of men and women and the future of humanity.

Has humanity, comprised of men and women both of mothers, fared well under the worlds religions? I think the answer to that question is screaming so loudly we simply do not hear it as we tune out by asking the wrong question all together.

I do believe the wrong question has been asked.
The question of concern is not of women, but of mothers, and then of course of children and then of course of men and women and the future of humanity.

Has humanity, comprised of men and women both of mothers, fared well under the worlds religions? I think the answer to that question is screaming so loudly we simply do not hear it as we tune out by asking the wrong question all together.

Amanda - I do agree that the bible does contradict itself in many areas. The mistake is to take the bible translation literally. Many of the events of the early books of the bible were not written as they were unfolding, but were stories passed down through generations and then written. Also we all need to keep in mind the fact that these texts were translated and then re-translated which resulted in mistakes.

There have also been interpretations of bible, such as Mary Magdelene being a prostitute, which are not supported by the actual text. Unfortunately, changes were made to the text to fit into the personal beliefs of the heads of the church.

My thought is that when studying religion - as with any subject - we should always ask questions, weigh the answer and pray for guidance. Keeping an open mind and heart with the guidance of God is important.

I've read this entire thread, including the Sam Harris article. The solution is clear as a bell, people. It is A-THEISM. Nobody needs a religious dogma to be a kindly, moral person. The more education people get, the more they realize this too. What religion people are is almost 100% the same one parents raised them into as children, i.e. religion is an accident of your birthplace.

If your religious tradition happens to be one of those which claim (in very non-loving way) that any non-members are heathens, infidels, or damned to burn in hell, then for goodness sake show some real moral courage and say NO, and leave!

Meanwhile regarding the treatment of women, it is more about the culture than the religion. So support literacy programs for women; education for daughters; micro-banks that make loans to women; and orgs that support reproductive choices and health for women.

Hey, I have an idea! How about we find a religion that doesn't seem to constantly contradict itself? All I see on these message boards are the same reiterated back and forth quoting from ancient books. It's quite sad when you can use passages from the Quran or the Bible to contradict itself. Was God this back and forth? I doubt it. And as a non-religious female, I believe that any religion that treats women as subordinate isn't the true word of God. We wouldn't have been given the gift to produce life if we were on par with cattle. I think all the religions were written by men, for men and about men.

I have always been taught in my religion of LDS, considered a conservative one, that men and women are partners. While men hold the priesthood authority, that is not simply a position of power but one of duty. No payment is given to members of our clergy for their duties and those with the priesthood authority have the responsibility to serve the congregation. Women has the ability to create life; however, both parents have the responsibility to provide that child with the tools to be a productive person in both the religious and secular realms.

I believe that most people, religious or not, have the goal to be a better person and to share with our communities.

One more thing - a previous writer indicated that their was a correlation between faith and education. I am sure that it was meant as a put down and I would be shocked to see a scientific study which found that individuals with faith in God or a creator have lower IQ's. Unfortunately, comments such as that one amounts to name calling of the sort I would expect from my 9 year old.

"Religion" in the most pure form means manipulation. Catholic church trying to supress education in the dark ages. Changed their tune when they discovered they could not supress DaVinci and Michaelangelo. Still trying to control the masses with hell and "purgatory" and damnation. Inventions of men that want to control women.
There is no passage in the Koran that requires women to be covered from head to toe. None.
The burka is an invention of men who want to control women.
The bombing of abortion clinics in America (in the name of god) by men ... another example of men trying to control women.
All of these examples are simulations of RAPE. Men using anything they have to control women. Why women go along with it is beyond me!
Sad, really. Me, personally, I don't stand for that. No man forces me to do anything. And no man ever will.
No man is worth your tears, and the one that is will never make you cry.

- if you mean the owrld's matriarchial, tribal traditions, the answer is sometimes yes, and sometimes no. it's more a function of the culture the religion grew from.
- if you're talking specifically about the big three monotheisms, the answer is a resounding 'NO' - and you're naive, cruel or both to even ask such a ridiculous question. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims have made cruelty and subjugation of women a holy pillar.

Many western religions ( Catholic, Baptist,Orthodox Judaism) and some Protestant religions) and Islam, throughout history, treat women as second class citizens; to be owned, considered less worthy then men, and not up to the task of a ministry. Some of these religions actually consider women in need of corporeal punishment and that they must be submissive to men.

All this is my opinion and reading of history. In fact, the more I learn, the less likely I am to embrace any "organized" religion.

The Bible is clear that the death came to the world through a woman. By death we mean many billions of people buried in the dust. We cannot argue with the Bible for it is true. No one can. This is why, throughout the ages, men have been reluctant to give women an equal share of power. It's a natural instinct of self-preservation, and it is difficult to blame them. Of course we can deny the Bible and move on. But I don't think we should. Life is too short for that, and besides the Author of the Bible is our only hope of living beyond death. I therefore reaffirm the Biblical injunction that women should accept the authority of their husbands. Equal respect and love should come with it, and husbands better measure up to the expectations God has placed upon them in this regard.

Women are simply sex toys in Islam and kept out of the leadership roles in Catholic churches so the priests can molest children.

What an interesting question! Do we not know the answer to this?!

By and large women have suffered greatly under most religious systems. Just ask yourself if there's equality between men and women under the various religious traditions...

Are positions of leadership equal between men and women?

Are women valued, their beliefs and thoughts etc carrying equal weight?

Are women segregated, maligned, supposed to follow strict guidelines of permissable behavior?

Are women free?

Is it any surprise that women have left traditional religious systems and flock to more open spiritual communities instead??

In bible days women were treated like second class citizens and in my mind nothing has changed. We are still living in a male dominated society/world.
Women are still being abused and supressed by men and that is the way it always will be. Women are considered a minority, if they do get ahead it is for that reason and no other.
They forget women use all parts of their brain and are more capable of multitasking than men.
Thank you
Pam

In bible days women were treated like second class citizens and in my mind nothing has changed. We are still living in a male dominated society/world.
Women are still being abused and supressed by men and that is the way it always will be. Women are considered a minority, if they do get ahead it is for that reason and no other.
They forget women use all parts of their brain and are more capable of multitasking than men.
Thank you
Pam

In bible days women were treated like second class citizens and in my mind nothing has changed. We are still living in a male dominated society/world.
Women are still being abused and supressed by men and that is the way it always will be. Women are considered a minority, if they do get ahead it is for that reason and no other.
They forget women use all parts of their brain and are more capable of multitasking than men.
Thank you
Pam

at least you have rights, heck in certain regions, you would be stoned for voicing an opinion.

In my mind, nothing has changed since the bible was written. In the bible women were treated like second class ciiizens and that is the way women are still treated.
It is the same treatment just a different year.

Pam

Anyone who believes in full equality for everyone should withhold financial support for any institution, religious or not, which treats any group of human beings as inferior. Money talks!

didnt mean to post that quickly,

but christianity isnt any better. women have no religious authority, have been excluded since the begining, and via certain break off groups of catholicism, lost rights to inheritance within certain countries that were run by the church, etc etc

allah was/is a vile woman hater and mohammed was a pedophile.

all religion is bunk, false stories to get people in line with whatever war was popular at the time.

Speaking only about the Catholic church their treatment has been terrible, but what can you expect from an organization run by celibate men?

Why does "OnFaith" panelist Sam Harris' contribution to this question NOT APPEAR on the main page?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2007/01/women_and_religion/all.html

READ Sam Harris' entry HERE:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/01/women_are_property_1.html

Read the Bible, women were taken from the rib not the foot. There not to be walked on but are to sumit to there husbands (EPH 5-22 . they are to reverence (respect) there husband and the husband is suppost to Love his wife but a husband has to earn the respect of the women and the more she respect the more he will love her and the more he love her the more respect he will be given. Women and men alike bring thing, sometimes bad by not following Gods word. Read EpH Chapter 5.

You have to separate religion and the bible. First, the bible is the only book on earth that claims our Creator as its author who inspired 40 men to write his words. Religion is a creation by men "who have dominated man to his injury" and interpret the bible for their own benefit. Religions that don't use the bible are using books that have no basis for credibility. The only one who can tell mankind how to live is the person who created him.

Read the bible first and then find the religion that conforms itself to those words. I guarantee that world wide organization will treat women very well. I know...I'm one of those women.

Christianity has had a sad history of dealing with women members of the faith, possibly a reaction to temple prostitution in the ancient world, and at base, the pervasive fear that women can subvert men to sin. Jesus didn't reflect this as many accounts of his acceptance of women can be found in the Gospels. The best that can be said of the Church is that it reflects the culture around and is shaped by that culture instead of influencing it. Now it would seem that the church seeks to be politically correct in appearing to champion equal rights for females. As a minister for over 50 years, I don't see the church, unfortunately, as a leader in fighting for the rights of women.

Many of the celtic pagaens and various african ethinc groups whom the christians, jews and muslims saw as savages and un-godly have signifcantly better track record and more humane treatment of their women. In these "savage" societies women held levels of respect as high as any man. While it wasn't pure equality they did have harmony of delegated responsibites whether it being spirtual, labour, or within the family. Furthermore religion played a large role in these cultures in which men or women were required for diffrent rituals and prayers. Just focusing on the African ethinc groups you would find that the oldest civilzations had it right the first time. Religion isnt bad, but the people that use it to oppress others are.

All religions are man-made. God did not need a religion, and therefore did not need to establish a priority of men over women or women over men. All are equals in the sight of God, or whatever supreme being one may worship. But I doubt seriously that after he/she created the heavens and the earth that he/she then got dressed for church. Everything on this planet is made by humans, even the holiest of holys that we may profess. If it was made by man, it is not of God. If you are looking for God, look no further than to those things that God created -- the heavens and the earth and all living things therein. There you will find God.

The majority of you put so much effort into your comments that you failed to say anything meaningful.

Religions throughout the ages have considered women less than full partners with men and in fact they have been used as a means to control women. Even today some religions relegate women to the status of being little more than a possession of their husbands or the men in their birth family. Anyone who claims that religions have protected women or promoted equality for women is essentially arguing that we are protected by being second class citizens.

Asking the question "How does religion treat women?" is like asking the question "How does the KKK treat Blacks?"

I think, in fact, that women have been the victims of most mainstream religion for well over two thousand years. While the male was the handiwork of God, the female was an afterthought built with spare parts (Adam’s rib) of the original.

Women have been isolated from roles of leadership, thoroughly stereotyped as being unworthy of equality due to some vague reference that dates to the very beginning of humanity. Of course, most people see this as a symbolic rather than literal record but in Islam, orthodox Catholisism and fundamentalist Christian sects, women are almost demonized because of their gender. In Islam especially, women are responsible for how a man behaves. If she is raped, it is her fault. The male is not expected to be responsible for his desires. The results are female castrations and other cultural muggings that include head to toe clothing that would simply suffocate a lesser creature.

Oh no, religion from the Common Era forward has not been kind or evenhanded with the female of our species. To the contrary, it has been reprehensible. No matter how much propaganda is applied, this absolute truth will remain.

Well this is an intresting conversation.

If you look back into time. Back into the Roman/Greek civilation women could own land. The Pagans worshiped Gods and Goddesses. Women were on an even keel with men. Then with the Christainity movement women lost rights, infact the whole movement....the crusades, was all men. Joan of Arc, burned. Women, burned for just an accusation of being a witch, hung, stoned, drowned.

Even today. You have womens rights, glass celings, birth control, things that could be argued as "life issues" where it can be said it is womens rights.

Men have the right to choose to have a vacestomy and not have eggs thrown at them, I should have the right to buy birth control in peace. But there are people out there that will not let me. That have not let me. Thats wrong. Thats religion driven. Some would say moral, and thats fine...but if it's so powerful for some, then it needs to be a choice not for them.

I'm a pagan.

I have endured people treating me like crap for most of my life. I don't kill, I don't scorn, I don't hurt. I don't wish harm on people. All I do is live and let live. I am kind to every person I meet...even if it kills me.

It bothers me that our government doesnt reconise my religion. It upsets me that when people meet me they think that I'm going to harm them, put a hex on them, or curse them.

That is what some people, some religions have done to women, paganism, wicca in the past.

A senator from GA (R) has said that he thinks that wiccans sacrafice animals. And why should people in the military be permitted to practice their faith.

The President has also spoken out on this area of faith.

I don't care what faith you are....who you pray to, or if you pray at all....I just wish we all could exist on this earth in a way that would let one another live in a loving way. In a sane way, and understand one another. Becasue deep down...we are all alike. We are all flesh, bone and blood.

blessed be.

Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?

That is the wrong question, because we don't have enough sample data from time of no religion to see whether it's religion that causes male domination or simply human nature. So this question is equivalent of saying have women been treated well throughout history? No they have not.

I personally believe it's biological and social more than religious. The first thing that made women be "property" of men was our large brains. Because we, the humans, have such large brains we come into this world very underdeveloped, or else the head would be too big to come out. This makes the nurturing of the child an all consuming task for much longer than it takes other animals. So a woman has to rely on the male to provide for her during this time, for she cannot hunt and gather on her own. Men cannot breastfeed, so they are free to hunt without any ill consequences.
Thus men now have power over women because without a man a woman dies. Now women hunt for men, trying to get the best provider for her family. Which means that men now have the power.
I believe it became worse with invention of agriculture because non-mechanical farming is tough work that woman could not possibly do. So a woman knew that she could not possibly survive without a man to do the hard work, even if there were no children involved. So once again more power goes to men.

We think we are in the age of englightment and women's rights came out of our growing understanding of right and wrong. I disagree with that notion. I believe that women's rights came from the industrial revolution.

For the first time in thousands of years a woman could finally do the same job a man did and provide for herself. A woman sitting at home started to wonder whether she can work in a factory the same way her husband did and provide for the family. The machinery substituted the physical strength required. It could be that before women suspected that they were mental equals of their male counterparts. However they knew that as soon as they start their demand for euqality, they're kicked out on their behinds and they will starve to death. Hard to fight for your rights when you have no plan B for survival.

With industrial revolution there was a plan B. A woman could be shunned by her husband and still be fine. A woman could not marry if she didn't want to. For the first time in history the woman was not dependent on someone else. So with that increased indepedence came the fight for the legal recognition of that independence, and after that the religious struggle to recognize that independence.

So my guess is that first comes physical independence (the ability to survive alone), then comes the legal equality, then religious fair treatment.

Give it 100 or so years and you'll see that women can be complete equals under the law of God. Because they'll go through that bible with a fine tooth comb and find you the right passages to justify their position.

I'm sure you all know about the book of Mary? I'm willing to bet that within 100 years a new split in some church will occur where some religious order will recognize it as a valid part of the bible, where women can be wise, and a prophet can be a woman.
Why? Because what are you going to do to the person who comes up with the idea? you no longer control her survival, so she can do as she wants, including founding her own religion.

Honestly... religion does not make the person, your belief in what your taught and choose do does. I personally am a Christian. In the Bible it speaks of several women items and several men items, I do my best to abide. However it is not religion it is the person~

To each thier own

GOD bless

Honestly... religion does not make the person, your belief in what your taught and choose do does. I personally am a Christian. In the Bible it speaks of several women items and several men items, I do my best to abide. However it is not religion it is the person~

To each thier own

GOD bless

Do the Witch hunts of the Middle Ages and the Salem Witch Trials ring any bells? Religion has treated women horribly through the ages.

The Christian bible is pretty clear that the man should lead. There are too many examples to argue against this. However, leadership and equality should not be confused. Here is an excerpt from Mark 9:

33And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?

34But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.

35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

The question should be: How are women treated today by religion? I think it would change the discourse tremendously.

Women have suffered for centuries because at various times ,various religons have been hijacked by extremist zealots like sunni wahabi Usama bin Laden, the Mughal sunni emporer Aurangzeb of India, the white christian european inquistors who burned women as witches/heretics & the hindu priests who allowed widows to be burned at their husbands funeral pyres, etc

(these zealots only seem to treat women well when they want sex).

Some religons have a better recrord of treating women well compared to others.

but I do feel sorry for women born into the Sunni religon. I cant believe the majority want to share thier husbands with other women, or cover up in burqa's or be considered half of a man, in a sharia court or want to be stoned to death for being accused of lewdness.

Instead of a war against terror, should we have a war against vicous extremist zealots, of any faith...instead? They are the ones who have harmed religon...

Just asking a question ...

To those who state that there are distinct, separate, but equally important roles for men and women:

Who is assigning the roles? God? Men? Women? Men and women in a joint decision-making process?

If the answer is God -- who is God's messenger o Earth?

Looking forward to your responses.

I can't speak for "religion" in general but I can speak for the Holiness movement in which I am a part of. Our movement has had women preachers and pastors for many many years while some churches are still debating the issue. In the early years women such as Phoebe Palmer preached in the slums of NYC that many men wouldn't go. I personally know of several good women preachers down thru the years in our movement and many good women pastors who have done a wonderful work in their churches. Many who passed away, but their work is still seen. Throughout the Holiness movement's history if it wasn't for the women there wouldn't have been some churches started.

There have several comments on Paul's writing about women keeping silent in church. This was written due to the fact that many churches women sat on one side and men sat on the other and sometimes the women would speak out across the church to their husband and interupt the service. That is why Paul stated to ask the husband at home and not interupt the service. In our churches women not only preach, sing, and they testify because we belive that all of God's children should testify to His glory.

The Bible did speak about women are to teach the younger girls just as the older men are to teach the younger boys.

Some may say about "women not to usurp authority over men." One thing to understand that God has an order, Him, man, then woman. But the order only works truly if the woman loves and respects the man just the way he loves and respects God. If a man truly loves the Lord, he will treat his wife and any other women with great respect. I can truly say that I never saw my grandparents or my parents fight and argue, I'm sure they had disagreements but they loved each other and showed us children love and we understood that you treat each other with respect. But back to the point when the Godly order is broken by either man or woman then there is confusion. A woman must have and know her place just as a man must have his place and know it. Both man and woman working together can be rewarding and have a great harmony. I will be the first to say there have been some men that have beaten their wives, but they were wrong and out of place, and no matter how much scripture they use, it isn't Biblical or Godly.

I could go on and I'm sure there are many out there that would refute everything I've stated. But the fact is I can't talk about everyone's religion, all I can say is what I've seen and experienced is that many women I know wouldn't trade their place or position that God gave them because they truly love Him and their work in life.

One more thing, many of our womae do stay at home and raise the children, there are those that work. But the stay at home mother works so much harder than any man at his job, and they deserve everyone's respect, not looked down on because they "are out of touch with society".

I'm glad my mother and grandmother and every other women I know didn't try to up to society because then I wouldn't be the man I am today.

What is wrong with being an animal? Elephants, rhinos and many other animals are stronger than the most powerful man whether male or female. Does that make them better or worse? Of course it does in some ways, but not in others. An elephant is superior to a man moving huge teak logs, but I'd rather have a qualified man (or woman) perform surgery on me; or a dolphin would be preferable in many water rescue situations.

Also, there are many women who are stronger than many men, although on the average men are more powerful. Individual differences tend to be ignored in favor of statistics, but in a pinch, wouldn't you prefer the best help you could get regardless of gender (or race, religion or even species)?

On earth, the human race has proven to be generally superior in technology and recording of history, art and literature (as far as we can determine with our limited senses and techniques), but is our social development really that advanced compared to whale pods, wolf packs and countless other examples from nature?

And does any thinking person who hasn't been prejudiced by human institutions, such as religious doctrine or ignorance, doubt that somewhere out there in the infinite vastness of the universe there are creatures far superior to us?

Steven F. Durst says:

"Talk to women who have lived in the Islamic world. They will tell you that women have no rights at all. Young girls are mutilated so they can not enjoy sex."

To be fair you should point out that female genital mutilation is a cultural, not a religious practice., peculiar mostly to East Africa where it is practiced not just by Muslims but by Christians and Animists as well.

In most of the "Islamic world" there is no such custom.

I say this not as a defender of Islam, I think it's just as silly as any other religion, but as someone who thinks its important to get the facts straight.

Regards

A Hermit

HMMMM...
I am always surpised by how little is understood about the eastern traditions in these debates ...

I am making a small contribution, but I mean no harm to anyone, but I should be allowed to say what I feel, even if I am mistaken in some areas.

I would say that overall women have suffered a lot at the hands of male religious hypocites & not because of religon.

The degree of sufferring seems to be greatest in Sunni & Shia traditons. ( I am reclutant to say Islam, because there are some groups such as the Sufi's whose spiritual guides can trace their lineage direct to prophet mohammed, & some may not regard the Sunni's & Shia's as following Islam the way it was delivered by Angel Gabriel).

The Sunni's make up about 85% & the Shia's about 13% of the overall muslim population. The suffering of women seems to be based mainly on Sharia law, which is an invention of male zealots, but who claim it to be divine. As far as I am aware, Sharia was not delivered by Gabriel to Mohammed.

The Sunni & Shia still stone women to death for crimes against chastity; still promote the marrying of more than one wife; they still claim that a womens testomany is worth half that of a man's in court, meaning that a muslim man can rape a women & not worry about being bought to justice, because she will struggle to find three witnesses to prove her case & also risk being stoned or flogged if she loses her case for losing her chastity, ( I think most women & men, regard the above as unfair).

However, I dont want to focus on just one set of religous male zealots, as Christianit zealots & Jewish zedalots overall have not treated women well either e.g. the burning of witches.

Hindu's used to burn widows on the funeral pyre of their husbands, but again this was caused by male hypocrites who misinterpreted scripture probably because they wanted to ensure that no other man would take their women after their deaths, especially as some of them used to marry women much younger than themselves.

As far as I am aware, there are only two groups who seemed to have treated women well, the tolerent sufi's muslims such as the chisti sufi's, & the Indian Sikhs, who are the youngest of the major eastern tradtions being about 300 years old. The Sikhs are the only ones who gave women equal status from the inception of their faith. There maybe other groups who have treated wome well, but like the sufi's & sikhs, they are probably very small groups of less than 50 million each & I can only comment on what I know, not what I dont know.

It seems that all the really big religons have at various times come under the sway fo male zealots who in turn have commited many crimes against women. I understand that many women were tortured during the european inquisitions. In fact saint joan was burned at the stake by male zealots, I think.

However, I dont think you should ask "how have women faired under religon" but instead ask how have "women faired during periods when religons have been hijacked by male hypocrites".

As far as I am aware, holy teachers such as Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, Ram, & Guru Nanak all treated women with kindness & fairness...

Who is to blame if zealots like Bin Laden, use copies of the Koran, printed by the Wahabies of Sauda Arabia with subtle changes made to put a different slant on compared to other versions of the Koran, backed by Oil Billions, to mislead ordinary sunni's into thinking that they can stop women from voting, driving cars, & force them to cover up in burka's ...e.g. the taliban in pushto lands.

I'm not picking on the sunni's but only using their example as it seems to me that sunni women are the ones who are suffering the most. if i am mistaken then i apologise in advance.

No offence inteded to any party, Im only expressing opinions based on what I have learnt.

Also, can those women who have been brainwashed into believing that sharing a husband with three other women is a good thing, etc, please think carefully before you respond, because honestly the rest of the female world will never accept your stance.

In summary, women are more faithfull than men beacuse they seem to have more campassion than men, maybe thats what we need to do. Instead of teaching our sons how to do math at school, we need to teach them how not to hate, first & foremost. I love men, when they are good, they are magnificent, but when they are bad ...?

In Christianity, men and women have equal value before God in the same way that employers and employees have equal value, kings and peasants have equal value, and cab drivers and retail workers have equal value. In each pairing, the parties have different roles, yet equal value. The greatest complaint I see, is that women have different roles than men, and that is seen as something that makes them inferior. I argue that this is not the case. In the most general terms (since there are always exceptions to any"norm), women are, at the core, loving and compassionate. Men can be both loving and compassionate, but this is not what appears to be part of their core. They are focused on achievement and respect. Women can value achievement and respect, too, but it is not what appears to be their core. Women can bring children into this world. Men cannot.

The Judeo-Christian tradition includes many examples that advanced the role of women in society. When their father died without sons (a cultural requirement for inheiritance), a group of daughters plead with Moses so they could be included in the estate. God told Moses to grant their request. At a time when even speaking to a woman was consider shameful and something beneath men, Jesus conversed with a Samaritan woman (who was also socially unacceptable for her heritage). In the midst of a male-dominated society, Jesus chose to revel his resurrection first to women rather than men, even though the society held the testimony of women to be worthless. Yet it was the testimony of those women that brought the reality of the resurrection to the disciples. Yes, it is true that some New Testament writings [and I would argue that the apostle Paul did, indeed, pen the letters to Timothy], when taken out of context, have been used throughout history to subjugate and subordinate women. Viewed in their exegetical/historical context, and in the light of the balance of the teachings of scripture, one is hard pressed to argue for such a marginalized picture of women in the Christian scriptures. Whereas there is not enough time to fully address the issue here, I believe the key to distinctions that remain is to remember created equality even when men and women are assigned different roles.

Remember, equal in value, but different in role. Without one or the other, the human race would not exist. The Judeo-Christian account of creation indicates that God made mankind "in the image of God" and that as he created them in the image of God, "male and female he created them." Thus, the image of God is visible in both male and female, yet in the context of the creation account, God gave the man and the woman different responsibilities. I do not know why he chose to do so, but God created man first, then woman. He also created them in a different fashion--man from the dust of the ground and woman from part of that living man [near to his heart, I must add]. In that aspect alone, woman was created differently, and it is (to me) a profound mystery. When sin entered the world, it was woman, not man, who took that forbidden fruit, YET GOD CAME TO THE MAN AND ASKED IF HE HAD DONE IT--he did not ask the woman, because he held the man responsible for the actions of both. [What a different world we may have had if Adam had only said "Yes, God, I did" rather than "that woman YOU GAVE ME did it."] God has always valued men and women equally, but because of our current state (a state where we are no longer in a perfect relationship with God), people have bastardized the goodness of the differences God created (e.g, men through abuse/force, women often manipulation). When God addressed man and woman after the fall, he predicted the types of inapporiate gender behavior which would come as a result of sin: that woman would long with desire for her husband and that her husbad would exert harsh authority over her. That was not God's plan, but a revalation of how the perfection of the male-female relationship was tainted by sin.

I believe God also designed men and women with differnt fundamental needs (beyond our need to be reconciled to him). John Gottman, in his book "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail" (based on the results of a study of 2,000 marriages over a period of 20 years) suggests that, at the the core, these needs are, for her and him respectively, love and respect.

Biblical teachings never instruct women to unconditionally love their husbands. Why? Because, by their very nature, they do this. Similarly, husbands are never told to unconditionally respect their wives. [Hold on.] Why? Because it is their very nature to do so. Thus, the biblical writers command husbands to unconditionally love their wives (something that does not come naturally to them) and command wives to unconditionally respect their husbands (something that does not come naturally to them). When a husband loves a wife in this manner, she responds to him with respect, fueling his desire to respond in love. When a wife treats her husband with respect, he responds with love, increasing her respect for him. THE KEY IS THAT NEITHER PARTY CAN SIT ON THEIR HAUNCHS AND WAIT FOR THE OTHER TO SHOW EITHER RESPECT OR LOVE. Each is commanded to love or respect, and the spouse who seeks to be obedient to God will carry out his/her task even if there is no hope that the spouse will respond in kind. THIS IS THE CORE OF A TRUE CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE. If the couple does not believe this, then they do not hold the precepts of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, divorce statistics in the Evangelical community state that five in ten marriages, a full 50%, end in divorce. I believe this is the primary reason why it is so. We look at marriage as a social contract of mutual benefit for both parties. We neglect to view marriage as a convenental promise to love the other more than we love ourselves. I know this may seem foreign to many of you, but I know it to be true.

And unto Adam he said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree,
of which I commanded thee, saying,
Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

in all religions not just islam, there are laws which God has passed down. correction in christianity, judism, islam all 3 religions God has passed down his orders and laws to us.

how if you look at a christian, jewish or muslim man you will see them either treat their wife good or bad or inbetween. just because you see them treat the wife bad doesnt mean the religion is at fault. it shows how the man himself is not obeying God.

in Islam women must cover, this is a law set down by Allah not by their husbands. they must cover their bodies and protect their chastity.

men have certain rights over women, and like wise women have rights over their husbands.

the man must support and take care of the wife's needs by all means. the husband on the other hand can tell his wife to stay home and not work.

is it unfair? is it unjust? where is the freedom?
these women dont have freedom!!! so lets gather up US forces and atk some more muslim lands.

1st of all there is no freedom in the US, you are free to do certain things, same as any other country.

to steven durst, ur the one with your head in the sand. obviosuly since u talked to a few muslim women and they said they are treated unfairly then that means all muslim women are treated unfairly. if you will come to conclusions in that manner, then all i have to say is this:

Priests molest young boys, thus all priests are child molestors.

Steven does the above state prove that all priests are child molestors?
of course it does not, same way not all muslim women are treated badly. if they are then it is NOT the fault of islam it is the fault of the husbands for mistreating them.
for those actions they will be judged by Allah on the day of Judgement and be punished possibly.

THE QUESTION:
Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?

Not well I'm afraid, and the reasons are quite obvious. All monotheistic religions throughout history have been started by men, and they're all about power, money, oh, and power. And they use it to control other men, including and especially women. That boys' club in Rome is a very good example. Besides, it's really not the point. On the one hand, unless and until someone provides irrefutable evidence that we're not just biological creatures that have evolved to the point where we are now and there really is some all knowing power out there, what's the whole point of devoting one's life to some ancient, hokey religion? On the other hand, just imagine what this world would be like if everyone woke up one day and realized that all we really have is each other. I think there'd be a lot more crazies out there. So keep the religions, but how about giving women an equal share of the corruptness and power and money. All we have is each other. We should believe in this because it's what we have and it's real. Turn all the praying and godspeak into, of all things, the golden commandment. After all, until you prove it on something other than "BLIND" faith, all we have is each other.

One of the basic principles of the Baha'i Faith is the equality of men and women. Here is a short qotation from 'Abdul-Baha (1844-1921), one of the central figures of the faith:

The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings or parts become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary. Therefore, woman must receive the same education as man and all inequality be adjusted. Thus, imbued with the same virtues as man, rising through all the degrees of human attainment, women will become the peers of men, and until this equality is established, true progress and attainment for the human race will not be facilitated.

The Christian faith transcends gender, but does not ignore it. As a Catholic I see the Virgin Mother as a centerpiece of my faith, and my reverence for Her reflects that. I think all people are best served by living their faith to the best of their ability. The evil of this age eminates from a diminished respect for life and the moral vacuum that accompanies a total committment to the temporal. Both men and women contribute to this, despite their avowed purpose of achieving equality. Jesus told us to "love our neighbor as ourselves". Apparently social evolution has allowed us to improve upon this simple advice and to chart our own course, which will only lead to further misery for humankind.

Talk to women who have lived in the Islamic world. They will tell you that women have no rights at all. Young girls are mutilated so they can not enjoy sex. Women are a possession of men and that's all. Anyone who doesn't agree with this has their head burried deep in the sand.
In the early Christian Church women played out very inportant roles as recorded all throughout the New Testement.
Study anthropology and archeology and you will discover is has always been a man's world.
Even Christianity offers unequal offices in the structure of the church.
However it has been and still is women who see to it that their children are given the proper religious upbringing. While men think they do.

There is no male or female in Heaven, only oneness with God. Male and Female are divided for
our existence on Earth to profit us and instruct us. Much as there is good and evil, good is the
positive, closer to God-like and evil is sin, and
is further from God-like. Where you align yourself
is how you will treat the opposite sex, and how you will treat others and define your place in the scheme of things.
By ethical argumwnt and moral imperative the greatest wrongs in our Spirit and History have been called "advancements" and "progress". We need
only look to the latest distortions of the Holocaust to see how blind and poor we still are
Spiritually and devoid of seeking the Truth.

MY opinion is every religionist here is expressing his/her opinion on the opinion of another human's opinion which constitutes one's preferred holy book. The official underlying responses in every religionist discussion seems to be "You're not reading it right" and "I have special insight". HoHum

From the little I know of Islam, the aspect of it I like is the strong emphasis on brotherhood, and the freedom of women to divorce and remarry, just like men. As a Catholic woman who is given no such option as per the rules of the Church, and in the Bible, Jesus does not really authorise remarriage, I value the equal status granted to Muslim women. But of course I don't envy Muslim women who end up in harems of rich or not so rich men, a situation that the religion of Islam permits.

As a Christian by conviction, I share the same view as Ann Graham Lotz, which she has taken from the Bible, that God intended men and women to be complementary equals. The differences in roles are due to biology alone and not due to any superiority of the male gender. In Hinduism there are Gods and Goddesses and some of them are depicted as pairs, for example Rama and Sita.

The power struggle and dominance of men,in my opinion, has little to do with religion per se. Power corrupts, more power corrupts even more, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If men would view women as complementary equals, and really LOVE them as they are expected to in accordance with the tenets of all religions, they would not abuse women. Women in positions of power are equally capable of abusing it. So misuse of power is the culprit and not religion.

Sometimes I have wondered about the role women play in contributing to the attitude men develop towards women, after all every male abuser of power was once a little boy over whom his mother had great influence. Would it make a difference if the mother consciously taught her boys different values - to treat women as complementary equals?

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Mo, what part of freedom don't you understand? Everybody doesn't believe in a creator, i don't. Why do religious people use guilt and coersion to make a point. They say we have freedom and yet they use words like obey, obedience and damnation. Let me put it in a funny context. A prisoner sentenced to death walking to the electric chair with a gun pointed at his head. Is that freedom? He does have a choice. He can die by a bullet or he can die by the chair. Respect his decision. He is the one dieing not you. In time you will have to make your decision.

anonymous I agree with alot of what you are saying however there are holes in your argument. The first one is Amazon woman and the Greeks. The Greeks or for that matter anybody else in the Mediterrainian world never laid foot in South America. For those idiots out there who claim the bible or quran gives man a superior notion of themselves, there is only one question. Who wrote it? Man or Woman

compulsion of life.
life and death is compulsion,every body belive in the creator of life and death,but not every body belive in the none compulsive guidance of the creator,. who compulsived human beings to life and death,could,v compulsived them all to guidance,but for some wisdoom,gave every body the choise.those who they belive in the guidance of the creator lord,invite to the creator lord.those who disbelive in the guidance of the creator lord,invite to their human selfs,cultures,morality,club of rationalism,salon du sophisticated ladeies and gentelmen,the scientific club of authentication and final approvation.belivers and disbelivers ,they all under the compulsion,they all are on a mission,they all are human beings who they eat food and make serious daily mission to the bathroom,but still they want to sit down and decide what mission is right and what mission is wrong.the one,the being ,who is free of mission,is the one to decide the mission.

anonymous I agree with alot of what you are saying however there are holes in your argument. The first one is Amazon woman and the Greeks. The Greeks or for that matter anybody else in the Mediterrainian world never laid foot in South America. For those idiots out there who claim the bible or quran gives man a superior notion of themselves, there is only one question. Who wrote it? Man or Woman

thas fine bd my point was that people always use the same ancient badly translated versions fo qurans- like pickthall- and scourge bd- how does one interpert that? the point is inaccurate translations
peace

Ok I'll take the "Plunge". If humans are't animals what are we. I very earnest here. You have given me a bunch of rage but nothing to chew on. If you were to cut down on the emotion for a bit wouldn't you have to agree that we are animals? That we hairless apes? Sure we have more brain power than the rest of the poor beats on this chunk of space rock, but what of it? Dolphins have more than anything else perhaps. Does that mean they aren't animals either? (I realize you will find it easier again just to call me stupid but I'll never learn anuthing then will I?)

Because:

If human beings are just animals then perhaps how we treat women is not a moral question (there are no moral questions) but rather a matter of biology. Do we judge other apes for beating women? Do we judge lions for having a harem? Do we criticize female spiders for killing their mates? Why do we even ask the question of religion and women. Humanity is strange!

And if we are robots then we are simply programed to be easily offended or hard headed or self-righteous or cruel.

Women have not done well under religion - but Christian men have killed Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim men as well. Then again - non-religious rulers like the Khans, the Huns, and in modern times Hitler, Stalin, and Mao have been brutal to a fare share of women as well. Hmmmm. Seems like a bigger question is "How has the human race treated women." Or even, "How has the human race treated itself!"

Christianity (don't confuse with catholicism)
is the only religion that treats women right.

The Question: "Women and Religion"
"Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?"

Since religion(s) was/is/are in reality political system(s) and women mostly have been excluded from governing/politics then it falls that women can't be allowed to run the religious organizations.

Next, since women are more socially inclined than men they have simply taken advantage of the religious organization to have contact with other people and have practiced religiousity to have the opportunity for social contact and not to be kept in isolation by the men.

Seems fairly straight forward: the men want to run things and are physically stronger but need to use religion to control the masses; they then can't let women run religion if it is the tool to run the governments. Women are physically weaker but they don't want to be isolated so they express high interest in religion and will take whatever role is assigned in order to have the social contact.

Some of the startup groups have probably used getting the women interested and involved in order to get the men involved.

Doesn't take a lot of deep thinking and big words.

Just take things straight up.

News CYNIC "If human beings are just animals then..."

This is such a dumb straw man. Stop using it. This is not a "evolutionist" or "secularist" position. No one believes that because we are animals, we should be treated like, say, jellyfish, because they are animals too.

How can someone be so dumb as to mischaracterize the moral views of non-theists in this way?

I also apologize to say, my short essay above has been very poorly structured for I have written the ideas in a hurry. My time is limited, so please bear with me and I will not make the same mistakes in due time. Thank you

I think the first question should be, are women equal as men? The answer is no. The brain productivity and physical attributes of men and women are so different we are practically opposite from one another. Which is why we are compelled to come together and unite. A couple thousand years ago, masculinity and strength were the key elements in surviving and growing. Who has these elements? Males. In result, women were pushed to jobs that supported the men.

Women were still worshiped though for their sexuality and ability to bear babies. If we take a look in art history, you can see that men painted pictures of women all the time, celebrating their gift of child bearing. One example would be that cave-men painted on the walls great portraits of women, with their breasts exaggerated to show how important they were. So in a way, they were praised and had somewhat of a position in society. But because, strength was the key element to ruling and surviving, men were the leaders of that time.

As time progressed, and deeper thinking came about, a superiority complex evolved as men began to think they were able to control women for they were stronger physically. That leads us back to the main question, "Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?" The answer is they have fared badly most of the time. Women were a constant threat because of their gift of bearing children. They were the key for men to spread their generations forever.

As I mentioned above, men and women are nearly opposite from one another. So you can almost imagine it as a war between two species where they are compelled to fight each other, yet need one another to live. For the first couple thousand years, men were the ultimate winners with women enslaved and pushed down. That is why, every possible revolt or offense by a women were immediately shut down.

For example, the Amazon women were a feared group who only used men to mate and killed them afterwards. The Greek men feared more women would join them, and brought an army forward to destroy them. Another example would be, the Witchcraft Trials that ran rampant throughout all of Europe where hundreds of thousands of women were killed. Why? Because the church (ran by men) believed them to be a threat.

All throughout history, it is a war between men and women. Another example would be the womens right protests where men can no longer use their strength to push and destroy the women, but use political force and compromises. In the end who won the rights? The women did. I am not a feminist in any sense, but it is written all throughout history of the ongoing war that is being fought to this day. Example? Hilary Clinton running for president. I am sorry to say, chances and history run against her.

Women in the Bible, held inferior roles, they were never called to be prophets, no miracles were recorded of their doing. Why is that? When God created Eve, he created her from one of Adam's ribs. What is the function of ribs? To hold up and protect Adam's lungs, a vital internal organ. It is an analogy as well because it states the women should protect and support the man, a partnership between the two. But, just the older of twins is determined by who came first, Adam came first. And Eve was created because God did not think Adam can handle his life alone. SO, man cannot survive without women, it has been a theory proven over and over again in history.

Regarding religion, throughout history, it is very visible women were to be seen and not heard, while men were to stand and preach. Is it like that in any way today? A liberal reformed presbyterian church have female pastors which would usually be unheard of in a baptist or presbyterian church. There will always be a debate between male and female for we are different in every way possible, so the war will continue on. Religion, can be perceived as a battleground between men and women. Thank you, any objections or disagreements would be appreciated in an orderly manner.

Victoria,

I see no mention of beating ones wife lightly in the summary or in 4.34???

Islamonlne.net makes use of the Pickthall translation so I thought it was acceptable.

My original posting listed the location of the Pickthall translation after each summary for use by all.

My whole purpose in posting was to expose another example of religionist cherry picking. I think I have accomplished that goal.

Thank you for your attention.

I would hazard a guess that were 75% of the clergy in the world women, men would be almosty totally absent from the church pews.

thank you mr kochmer- i really appreciate a kind word.

BD- scroll up- i called it what it is a translation of the quran. pickthalls translation is one of the very old (actually the oldest i believe) translations that i was speaking of-

and its funny you chose that particular verse as i already commented on it above -

here is what i wrote- just as a quick example of common misunderstandings and of bad old translations

for example- where it is translated that you can beat your wife lightly- this is completely untrue and it actually says leave her alone for awhile. big difference isnt it?

it was in reference to 4:34 that you posted here

pickthall-
The son of Rev. Charles Pickthall, Rector of Chillesford, Suffolk, he was born on April 7th, 1875.

for instance was an englishman born in 1875-
ther noble and yusuf ali translatios also leave much to be desired.

Victoria, I visited islamonline and learned that "The various translations that exist today, however accurate they may be, cannot be designated as the Qur’an, since they can never hope to imitate the diction or style of the Book of Allah."

I couldn't find the below verse on Islomoline.net(may be there but I couldn't find it) so I went to http://sacred-texts.com/isl/pick/index.htm, THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS QURAN
by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
The following:
"12. Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34" appears to me to be an accurate summary. Anyone interested can check the accuracy of the 52 summaries in my earlier post on the same website.

Victoria:

I have to pass a compliment to you, as I have enjoyed reading your posts.I have also enjoyed a few commenter's such Sully.

I find the posting of quotes from any religious text to be interesting ,since, no matter what it opens up debate or stir up emotions.

How could it not? Words are always a reflection of man, and our perceptions are such a rainbow of statements.

I am not sure if it's possible to define or confine these discussion in any reasonable way, as once we open the discussion to the topic of religion, it immediately goes outside any boundaries... after all religion was crafted to do just that: go outside what is explainable in everyday terms.

So I guess I am just saying thanks for your patience, as it's a learning experience to see all these different views and reactions.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages? Why?

The evidence would seem to dictate that indeed women have fared badly in the world's religions down through the ages, but the interesting question is why this has been the case.

In our age it is tempting to see this as something of a plot against women, or a battle of the sexes or something, but it would be more accurate to speak of man having to come to terms with himself and explain to himself the natural world in a satisfactory manner.

Remember, we are still dealing with man the superstitious and wayward animal, and it has been a long hard slog toward him creating laws and explaining the natural world in such a manner that he is not perpetually terrified and looking for scapegoats.

Only in our modern view does it appear that religious man was against woman--our modern world where we have a barrage of laws and a proliferation of scientific explanations for the world.

Essentially freedom for not only women but men has been something of a hard-won luxury--and in fact the freedoms women enjoy today should not be taken as something definitive or even proven to be superior to past arrangements but rather as something of a social experiment, like all society has been down through the ages.

Our modern age can be truly absurd: it takes all past social arrangements as "obviously wrong" and itself as correct when really we all know that it has been experiment all along and our entire arrangements could just as well be proved wrong.

Take our whole notion concerning women today: we say they are equal to men but obviously this means only that we should allow them equal opportunity and not that they have been proven equal in ability or otherwise.

In fact are we even allowed to discuss biological differences between men and women? We are allowed to discuss sex, yes, but what about the fact that women when they go into music are predominantly vocalists and invent no musical instruments, no compositions worth speaking of, and demonstrate no proficiency on musical instruments to be considered stylists worth speaking of? And what about proficiency in mathematics? Recently at Harvard the president of the institution was dismissed (Larry Summers) for questioning mathematical ability in women, etc.

I would not say at all we have made an advance on the past...We are still trying to find out the capabilities of men and women and trying to get them to interrelate...I wrote once that society today finds it impossible to recognize let alone capitalize on the differences between people and instead oscillates between outright discrimination of people and covering up differences between people. The former is of course more a right wing development and the latter a left wing...

I would say we have a long way to go and that things are far from understood let alone capable of being embraced. It would be wise to say we are in just the same predicament of every society of the past, just muddling along, experimenting.

But few people, even the most scientific, seem willing to see society as just that: A grand experiment.

perhaps BD- insteadof posting how you interpert the verses in question- you could post the verses themselves and let people make their own determinations- in islam we dont interpert for each other- we are exhorted to read ourselves and come to our own conclusions.
there are also some inferior english translations that are very old and at this point has been discredited by scholars-

for example- where it is translated that you can beat your wife lightly- this is completely untrue and it actually says leave her alone for awhile. big difference isnt it

BD- i didnt sy it happened here- i said it happens allo over the boards which is why i only posted one sentence here- ive been on thiese posts since its inception and this is the predictable pattern- it is apparent especially if you go to muslim panelists questions youll see what i mean.

and there arent any quotes form the quran here- for instance your own lengthy post at the top with quotes form the quran contains so many serious misquotes that id be here all day addressing them- seriously- i sat here with my quran and compared many of themtil i got tired.

i dont know what website you got them from- but it wasnt an islamic one.

ive expressed my intentions in a resonable tone.

again- i was not referring to any posts here-

i am just not wanting to subject you all to the distraction of negative posts that will follow as they do so much so that others comment on them.

peace

perhaps you might go to islamonline as a reliable source for the quran.

Victoria, vitriol - abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will.

I don't see any of that relating to you or your post. Only observation, quotes from your holy book and the meanings of some of the quotes.

The real issue is not of religion but rooted in the power structure of those who run the religions.

It appears that historically men running the show have a vested interest in domination of women. As one of your panelist's pointed out: for purposes of controlling the next generation. It's also interesting how people can twist words around of any religion to justify the stance of domination of others be it men or women.

In the end: this question doesn't make sense, as it's actually not a question of religion, it's a question about human nature. So I think the answers posted here will just cause more debate and arguments. Perhaps the question should be refocused and changed to reflect it being a issue of how to establish equal cultural and educational values.

Yes religion is part of the problem, but until people truly accept we are all equal, there will not be equality within religion, as all religion reflects the nature of mankind.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

it is likely that i will wait for this thread to die down and post a lengthy post- i am amazed that i havent found one person one time cite women in islam with the remotest insight or knowledge- there are so many outright lies and simply made up ideas that itis impossible to address them all individually- besides it seems to inflame some and that does a disservice to the others here-

there are some ill-intentioned persons who follow my posts with the same nonsense and i wont subject you all to these ranters at this time
peace

No SULLY it would be ridiculous to base anything on one sentence- i simply waited for some of the vitriol to die down- ecause i didnt want a war to follow my posts- its just consideration for my fellow posters to not want the pages to be flooded with distracting hatemongering that invariable happens when i make sense and back it up with why.

i will definitely be posting at length because these pages areflooded with misinformation and biased conjecture.

Yes, I agree religious conviction can come into play when revolutions, small and large, happen, but its rarely a revolution to bring the culture into line with the religion. Rather revolutions are fought to correct a perceived cultural injustice and religion is simply used to provide not only justification but to also rally the faithful. In the cases you site it was not the religion that lead the change but people who wanted to change the injustices within a culture and used religion to justify a cultural change. Religion follows the culture whose people believe they follow the religion. Wow, I better stop typing, that last sentence just gave me a headache :^)

To Sully: "All religion is used to justify cultural norms until those cultural norms are overturned". YES! Preach on brother!

Great insight. But historically you will find individuals here and there who defy society ("Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?). Remember the Japanese dude Suguhara who defied his government and the Nazis to get hundreds of Jews out of harms way during WW2? It was his faith. How about the hermit monk who went into a Roam colosseum to end the gladiator combats? He was killed but the people felt so guilty they no longer held the games. Or Martin Luther King? Or Sadartha Gautuma leaving his palace and wealth? Or Christ so defying the culture he was killed for it?

What about the thousands of missionaries that have been killed? Of course you can argue with them but they lived for far more than the status quo. Southern and Northen abolitionists were mostly Christians before the