Readers’ Responses to Our Question (224)

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It would be negligent not to point out that maleness derives its superiority endowment directly from Biblical text - which, at best is a fictional account of what may or may not have transpired in ancient history that forms the presumption of religious authority as ultimate authority.

Through religious authority all manner of inconsistencies and privileges are created with respect to race, to force, and to justification of attitudes that support those privileges, and the use of force on others, that at best are little more than words on a page marketed by religious figures throughout history and given tax exemption to do so. It is a seductive, and deceptive scheme, at best, and a lethal weapon at worst to form cults, to maintain cults, and to further the creation of cults that have undue influence upon the lives of everyone in society, not just those who may be defined as believers.

2007 is 2,007 years late in examining that scheme, and that marketing advantage indulged even by governments.

Hello Cyber World and the Real World:

I used to joke by saying, "One pound of Israeli Brain is worth One Hundred Pounds of Arab brains.

So, The ISLAMic "Glorious Koran" has a clause therein that sais, A woman brain is half of a mans. It s like a Camel is worth 100 sheep.." [SIMILAR].

Women in the Democratic West & now slowly in the East, i.e., India, have a better chance in business, medical, justice etc....

I believe that the only hope for middle east Arab nations is to let-loose their women in order run their governments and enact their nations LAWS instead of Men husbands, boyfriends, sybling etc.

And Women are going to SAVE The SCIENCES for HUMATE KIND. Ya Ya. Woman are interesting indeed.

Well: Guess you can't live with them, but one cannot live with out them. Ya Ya Mommas and Poppas Mons. Ya. :=)/ Ya Ya.

Women In Islam

www.islam-australia.net

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Role Of Muslim Women - By Sister Nihaya Basha

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF MUSLIM WOMEN?

Presented at the 17th Annual Conference of the Federation of Australian Muslim Students and Youth (FAMSY) on Sunday 12 July 1998 at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.

I would like to start with a comparison between Islam and ancient civilisation. Whenever the position of woman throughout history is mentioned, Islam emerges as a unique exception. The religion of Islam gave women an honorable status and established their dignified equality with men. Before the advent of Islam, women had no rights of any kind, or an independent identity in any form. In previous religions and systems, they were treated as mere chattels in the house, subject to be bought, sold or discarded at discretion. Some examples are:

Chinese Civilisation:

I quote from the book of Chinese civilisation, which reflects "The Chinese wisdom presumed that ‘Women were created and placed the most inferior point of the human race, and should be given the meanest work’."

Greek civilisation:

From the book, The History of the World, I quote "In ancient Greece, the concept of woman was the view that her name, same as her body, should be concealed behind the doors of her home"

Hinduism:

In India, the ordinance of Manu implies several clauses handling the status of woman. Among them are the following:

Article No 148 reflects that "In childhood, a female must be subject to her father and later to her husband. When her Lord dies, she will be subject to her sons or his next of kin. For a woman must never be independent.

Until late in the 18th century, the rites of Sati were practiced, in which a Hindu widow should burn herself on the pyre of her deceased husband.

Judeo Christian:

In the Judeo Christian belief, women are regarded as the source of evil. Why? Because of her alleged Biblical role as the temptress who seduced Adam into disobedience to his Lord. By tempting her husband to eat the forbidden fruit, she not only defied Allah, but also caused humankind’s expulsion from paradise, thus instigating all temporal human suffering.

Jahiliya (Era of Ignorance):

In Jahiliya, before Islam, the infant girl was buried alive. If a woman’s husband died, his son would own her and he might marry her or lock her in the house until she died. Women had no right to own or to inherit. Allah says in the Quran, "When the female infant is buried alive, is questioned for what crime she was killed."

And what happened when one of the non-believers was told his wife had given birth to a baby girl? "When news is brought to one of them, of the birth of a female (child), his face darkened and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he return her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? What an evil choice they decided on!"

On the other hand, Islam is an egalitarian (equal) creed, which explicitly rejects such oppression. Men are not superior to women in Islam and women are not superior to men in Islam. Allah says in the Quran, "The best of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct and Allah consciousness" S49-13.

The Prophet said, "All people are equal like the teeth of a comb. There is no merit of an Arab over a non-Arab or a white over a black person or of a male over a female. Only Allah-conscious people merit a preference with Allah". Another teaching is, "Women are the twin halves of men." It is therefore difficult to imagine twin halves who do not have equal rights.

In Islam equality in spiritual and moral duties produces equality in spiritual and moral rights. The Quran reflects: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast and deny themselves, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praises. For them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward"

It is very clear in the Quran that Adam and Eve were both responsible for the first sin, both asked Allah for forgiveness and both were forgiven. The common belief in other Scriptures that Eve was the devil’s advocate is therefore a belief that is completely alien to Islam and Islamic teaching.

Is it true that a Muslim woman has the right to speak and share her opinion?

Like men, Muslim women are entitled to freedom of expression. It is reported throughout history that women not only expressed their opinions freely, but they also participated in serious discussion with the Prophet himself and other leaders of the Islamic State. Women were accustomed to question the Prophet while men were present. They were not embarrassed to have their voices heard, nor did the Prophet prevent their inquiries. One of these cases was the case of Khowlah Bint Thaalaba. She came to the Prophet (s) and complained about her husband and Allah revealed verses of the Quran while she was sitting and He resolved her problem. And the case of Omar (ra) when he was challenged, during his sermon, by a woman regarding the dowry is an example of women voicing their opinions and correcting a male. Omar admitted that the woman was right and he was wrong. Omar said, "Everybody is more knowledgeable than Omar." Furthermore, the Quran reflects the conversation between Sulaiman and Balqees. All of these examples support the fatwa that women are allowed to voice their opinions publicly for whatever has been prescribed for us. Allah tells us in the Quran that our speech must be just. The restriction is how we speak and that it should be a just speech.

The Role of Muslim Women

The status of Muslim women as defined in Islam. The woman is a mother. Paradise lies under the feet of the mother. As an authentic hadith teaches us: A man approached the Prophet and asked, "Who is the most worthy of my care?" The Prophet replied "Your mother", three times and then your father. A Muslim woman is also a daughter and a sister. Allah tells us that "He bestows female offspring upon whom He wills and bestows male offspring upon whom He wills".

A Muslim woman is also a wife who is a source of comfort for her husband as he is to her. "And among His signs is this, that He created wives from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts."

Women make up half of society and they are responsible for nurturing, guidance and reformation of the subsequent generations of men and women. It is the female who imbues principles and faith into the souls of the nation. A woman’s responsibility in faith is exactly the same as that of a man. Women are to pray, fast, give charity, perform the pilgrimage and perform other forms of ibadah. A woman is rewarded for this just like a man. A woman must believe in the Oneness of Allah, the Books of Allah, the Angels of Allah, the Prophets of Allah, the Day of resurrection, the Day of Judgment and heaven and hell, and predestination.

Does Islam Permit Women to Seek an Education?

Islam has made it a duty on every Muslim male and female to gain knowledge, which is considered to be a superior act of worship in Islam. Preventing a Muslim woman from gaining an education is therefore an un-Islamic act.

Allah asks in the Quran, "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

Allah also tells us that He will raise those who believe among you and those who have knowledge to high ranks. A famous hadith teaches us to "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave". In Islam, therefore both men and women are credited with the capacity for learning, understanding and teaching. One of the famous women in the history of Islam is the Prophet’s wife, Aisha. The quality for which she is remembered primarily is that of her intelligence and outstanding memory. She is considered as one of the most reliable sources of hadith by virtue of these qualities. She has reported more than 200 hadith and is regarded as one of the teachers of the hadith. Aisha used to teach men and women at the Prophet’s masjid.

Generally speaking, in the Muslim olden world, there was no bar or prohibition on women pursuing studies. On the contrary, Islam encouraged it. As a result of this, many Muslim women became teachers, such as Nafisa, a descendant of Ali, who was such a great authority on hadith that Imam Ashafii sat in her circle when he was at the height of his fame and Shaikha Shahda who lectured publicly in one of the principal mosques of Baghdad to large audiences on literature and poetry and was one of the foremost scholars in Islam. There are numerous other incidents of educated Muslim women.

I would like to mention something very important. That is, knowledge is not only limited to the religious knowledge but includes all forms of knowledge. Acquiring knowledge enables Muslims to get a better perception and understanding of the world around us and make us more conscious of Allah. Brothers and Sisters: the Prophet, peace be upon him, had put so much effort into reviving the ummah during that time. He began the process by tackling individuals, then the family and finally society. This is the point where the Muslim women play the role as the backbone and vital elements in the establishment of the society. "The believers men and women are protectors one of another, they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil" IX-71.

A Muslim woman as in this verse has to participate in Islamic dawah. Evidences from the Seerah of the Prophet proved that the Sahabiat (Muslim women at the prophet’s time) were not ignored in the Islamic movement. Asma, to quote one of the many examples, was one of the first few who knew of the Prophet’s plan to leave for Madinah during Hijrah. On the night of their departure, Asma was the one who prepared a bag of food and a water container for the Prophet (s) and Abu Bakr for their journey. Soon after the immigration of the Prophet, she left Mecca, during her pregnancy, traveling a long journey.

Sisters must be given the opportunity to work for Islam. I would like to quote a statement of Yusuf Al-Qaradawy: "One of the important social sectors which much be reached by the Islamic awakening is the sector of women. Islam is not a man’s religion but it is a religion for all men and women. In terms of number, women constitute more than half of the society. Hence, the voice of Islamic dawah must reach Muslim women. Women must be involved in Islamic work, even at leadership levels". Sisters can play a vital role in the Islamic organisation and Islamic society.

What are the roles of men and women within a Muslim family?

In the Islamic family, the role of men and women is complementary rather than competitive. The Quran makes it clear that "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means" IV-34.

The Quran makes it clear that the husband has full responsibility for the maintenance of the family. The wife on the other hand is responsible for the welfare of the family. Their duties are described as equal in importance but not identical in substance. The qawama is merely a matter of leadership and directing in exchange for duties that should be performed. For it is the husband who pays the dowry and he is the one who provides the house.

Sisters, I would like to convey an important message to you. If you dearly love Allah, you will accept everything He says and orders us to do. Allah is the All Knowing of His creation and knows what is best for them. I accept what Allah orders me to do because I am positive that Allah is wise and knows what is best for me. The Prophet taught us that if a woman dies and her husband is pleased with her, she will enter Paradise.

Is there a gap between Islamic principles and the practice of Muslims?

Unfortunately, many Muslims are unaware or ignorant about true Islamic teachings, due to a lack of education. Such Muslims practice a distorted Islam, which has been contaminated by their cultural traditions, which have no Islamic basis. This impure Islam is not based on any authentic Islamic sources, the Quran or the recorded teachings and practices of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. One should therefore judge a religion by its teachings and not by people who claim to be its followers. The issue of feminism in Islam is meaningless. The coming of Islam has brightened the life and future of women, in which Islam has lifted up their level to the same level as men. Islam upholds women to the highest and most respected position. Islam has also protected women from being mere objects to satisfy the desires of men. The Quran describes women as a symbol of beauty, justice and love. Muslim women have also been acknowledged for their important role in the establishment of the Islamic community.

reference: http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Efamsy/women_role01.html

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wow that is rich to say the least- i will go and find that and check it out--
peace

Victoria,
Also check this out...I know it's not in the texts but it's in the middle of Christendom in the center (top) of the Sistine Chapel, painted by Michaelangelo...the fall scene...look it up online...note the position of Eve...turn her face around (to what she "should" be worshipping and isn't)...then note the gender of the serpent...really study it...and recall that is cultures prior to Judaism (much less the other two Western religions), the female Divine's sacred symbols were serpents (what a great symbol of rejuvenation and resurrection...gets a fresh body each year as it sheds it's skin...also is a symbol of wisdom and healing (think how the medical establishment has taken the serpents and used them in the universl "healing" medical caduseus)...yet, in our texts...altogether something else is going on as the writers write the new stories. How better to change viewpoints and cultural systems than to take a symbol that is sacred and turn it into something evil...recall too, in the old religions of the female divine that trees were important...and fruits from those trees...a communion...and look what happens with those trees, the snake...the woman...we should all be furious (my opinion) that this isn't discussed upfront (not used in apologetics and just reinterpreted...tell it like it is...read the text as it was meant...turning reality upside down. Even Eve is "born" from Adam...where else have you heard of a human woman coming out of a male? Complete reversal and co-optation of the birth process...I think it is rich to look at the stories underneath the stories and see what treasures are there...what wisdom is hidden from us...

Victoria,
I do know some Muslim women and we've talked about the above issues. In fact, I had a long discussion yesterday with a young Muslim woman. She gave me a beautiful vase from Morocco with lovely designs and Arabic writing...that lovely calligraphy. I asked her what it said, and she replied, Allah, He....
We talked about what it means to say (whether it is God, Allah, Zeus, whomever...) "God is neither male or female (that would make no sense!)..."HE is Spirit." Right there you have a tremendously powerful image in language and and idol. I know Muslims and most Jews and Chritians don't like to look at this, but when they do, they see the problem. What is we said, "Goddess is neither male or female...She is Spirit." Anyone have a problem with that? Shouldn't...Because we know the Sacred is neither male or female. But the names and pronouns do matter, that is my point. Scholars can argue this all day long, but the bottom line is that in the popular culture, "He" means male...and when the Sacred is referred (in language) as He, then a judgement about what is of most value is powerfully assigned. Women would be wise in this world of our(my opinion) to realize this and to see what it means. Perhaps they would not be so supportive of this language and what lies beneath it. And if they are supportive of it, then they are part of the patriarchal problem and structure themselves.
Thanks for your time in reading this...

well te texts are not gender specific in the qur'an- masculine pronouns are inserted in the translations however- also ALLAH would really be considered leaning toward the feminine side (it means literally the god) as in arabic an ah suffix is a feminine one- e.g. im actually not a muslim but a muslimah-
and the doctrine is very very specific about the gnederlessness of god- actually to ascribe a gender to god would be considered strange to any muslim male or female. any humanization of ALLAH or personification is not in the qur'an- there are no hands of god or animated qualitied ascribed to ALLAH- so while a christian or jew 'would' say this- it is not found in the actual scriptures while i islam it actually is delineated.

if you know any muslims ask them this question-
ask the men- theyll agree to every man asked.

but i get your other points- there is a wonderful scholar named asma beslan who has written a book called Unreading the patriarchal interpertations of the quran" and since men have controlled the economics and physical access throughout history- there has been an imbalanced interpertation in their favor- but that has been changing and being challenged since the late 19th century and continues today. (actually muslimahs in the east claim a headstart on western women as far as the womens liberation movement goes) and actually they are right-
i may be over emphatic about it because its not a new issue for women in islam-

so now we will see the pendulum swinging back the other way- personally (and arrogantly) i imagine for the better---
peace

To: Victoria...
Christians and Jews would say the same thing about "God"...that "God" is neither male nor female...just not so...too much in the texts, liturgies, etc. indicate differently...as does Islam. Texts of the Western religions are all written by males for males. Why can't we just admit it? As females, we can insert ourselves in the texts if we choose, but we are doing the inserting...we aren't in there (unless in connection to some major story about a male)...rare rare exceptions...The female version of Allah is not Allah...just as the female version of God is not God...there do exist female names (ie, Goddess...various names...ex: in Judeo-Christian...Ashoreth, Astarte, Artemis...no different from El, Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai (and these names El, Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai, Adonai is another, etc. are all melded together and called "God"...the "Goddesses" are further fractured...their temples were destroyed by 500 AD...same as ancient deities were destroyed around the Ka'ba. Allah, I think, is referred to as he, but never she...yet those will say, "he" is not male or female. "He" is not male? What?
Chauvet is a cave found in southern France in 1995 and the art goes back 38,000 plus years ago. It is highly abstract and sophisticated and has been scientifically dated to the time stated above...the caves appear to hold ritual and spiritual significance...Lascaux, being the best well-known...this is also the time of the many many many carvings of the female form (often in overhands of shelters most likely used for religious purposes. No fortifications have been found, the humans did not take more than they needed. At least in this area of the world. Thus, our religions of today are very very young.

just an aside and probably self serving but onw of the premises of islam is the non-gender specific nature of ALLAH-(god) which is specifically neither male or female

who is chauvet? is that a person or a plce? forgive my ignorance

Thanks Victoria,
Which leds to the theory that all the female forms found (incredibly numerous compared to the male form) were most likely sculpted, formed by females, some in ritual settings (such as the Dordogne in France, etc.); the form of the male are dramatically fewer in number, less abstract...
To "assume" that males did all this paleolithic artwork (as an earlier poster assumed) is to place an androcentricity of today onto 40,000 years ago...

i can tell you from a perspective as a female artist trained with many other artists of both sexes- that all artists invariably start with what they know best- which is themselves-

Not sure who wrote the post above (way above) re: art history and "prehistory" (always an interesting term)...but that person wrote that males painted on the cave walls and made the sculptures of the female form. How is this known? It's not. There is no way to know what gender did this art. It would be reasonable to think that both did. In burials sites during this time, everyone pretty much had the same type of burial...no one with all the "stuff" that chieftains of later times had. There are many theories re: the cave paintings; please do not perpetuate androcentric thinking by attributing the world's earliest art to males when we have no idea who did this art. We do know that humans did it and this went back (Chauvet, for example) to almost 40,000 years ago. So, our religions of today are very young. Infant religions. Also the art of the caves (and the sculptures are highly sophisticated in style, in perspective...there is an abstraction that is phenomenal--has anyone seen this art? I've visited the caves in southwest France several times and am amazed every time. The thing that stands out to me is that the world appears to be that of the animals (I realize that humans are animals but that is rarely dwelt on very often)...the animals at that time seemed to be the ones who held the dominion. Then look what has happened once "man" (for we do know that males wrote the our present "sacred texts"--that we do know...

Gaby,

That's OK

Victoria should be thanked because she has cleard up many things for you.

Peace to you all

Gaby,

That's OK

Victoria should be thanked because she has cleard up many things for you.

Peace to you all

I'm sorry! I meant to say thanks NZMAM!

Thanks Victoria! One is never old enough to stopp learning a little day-by-day.

Gaby,

Niqab is the face covering. Niqabs (plural)

I don't wear one. As a matter of fact only one woman in my family wears one, my mother-in-law.

When you think about it, it's kind of cool. You get to see everyone but no one can see your face.

Of course she lifts it when it's required, preferrably in front of a woman.

Peace

Victoria,

I an ealier post by you you siad: "(i have to be honest- niqabis scare me too)"

What is a niqabis?

Thanks, Jihadist.

I'm often taken aback by the reluctance of some Muslims to condemn the killing and violence. Instead they try to rationalize the behavior because they don't want to appear controversial about the Muslim faith. Or maybe they aren't vocal about the atrocities out of fear that they might become targets.

Your quote "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousins; my cousins, brother and I against the whole world." was a concept that Hitler used in Germany to squash any resistance to his NAZI party. Neighbors were spying on neighbors, children were spying on their fammily members and then reported back to the authorities what they saw or heard. It was not unusual for kids to have their own parents taken away for "treason to the state". Many times for times as simple as listening to the BBC on the radio. People who opposed the NAZI party lived in constant fear.

Victoria,

Yes, I live in the US now. I married an American soldier who was stationed in my home town. We lived in several places in Europe and the States until he retired from the Army. We settled in Montana in 1993.

Your story about your Grandma is very amusing. I had to laugh because most Germans aren't very enamored with the French, so I can understand your Dad's consternation.

Victoria - Gaby - Canyon - Mr. Mark - Fate - A Hermit - Jihadist - NZMAM - James - And others:

I appreciate that Islam in South East Asia is different than that practiced in the Middle East and that the Christianity of today is different than it was 500 years ago. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I believe that whenever societies are allowed to engage in the public discourse of ideas (including religious and political ones), that the relative freedom of woman in that culture also increases. If our traditions and beliefs are "true" they will stand up to scrutiny and comparison to other ideas. When everyone is free to argue their ideas and share their faith with others - AND everyone is allowed to change their minds on essential things without fear of retribution from either the government or their neighbors, then woman (and men) will be free to ask questions, dream dreams, and make important quality of life choices about what to believe or not to believe! If that day is ever to come let us all join together to protect the rights and freedoms of those we disagree with to openly practice and proselytize their understanding of the world around them. Truth remains truth no matter how it fairs in the market place of ideas. We should not fear freedom.

Gaby,

I do agree with you. Perception is everything.

I'm rather resigned about my co-religionists killing each other and about intra-religious conflicts. And there is also ideological conflicts. Always for power and control be it ideological or couched in religious justifications.

Even though I am a Muslim, I still flinch whenever I remember the Arab saying : "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousins; my cousins, brother and I against the whole world."

I also accept the fact that I am culturally closer in temperament, ethnicity and culture to the Buddhists of Southeast Asia even if I am a Southeast Asian Muslim, rather than my Muslim brothers and sisters in the Middle East.

And Southeast Asian Malay Muslims change their beliefs about four times - from animism to Hinduism to Buddhism to Islam. So, the Hindu epics like Ramayana, and Buddha's statues and teachings are not alien to us for example.

But once one performed the Hajj, one realize that one is, and becomes one with the community of humans regardless or race or country of origin. Makes one realize and appreciate the universalism of human existence and concerns in sharing the rites of the Hajj and in trading stories on our lands and lives with other pilgrims.

i dont know if anyone could blame you for repraoching canyon- he can be ----difficult.

Victoria, if you want to see the not so nice side of me, go to this thread: Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God? If so, what exactly does that mean? If not, who was he?
Page 17

my grandmother was from uttenweiler and we had stumtisch every sunday- she confessed to me before she died that the whole family moved to uttenweiler from france so were not really german and swore me to secrecy til she died- my father still hasnt forgiven me and consdiers himself german-
so i dontknow if its genetic or cultural but grandma definitely had a bit of the stubborn streak too-
are you in the us now? im in queens NY
peace
thats what we need here- more laughter

Hahahahha! Victoria, you are too funny.

I'm a 54 year old stubborn German yet-to-be Grandma. I wish my kids would hurry up already.

GABY id say with the information given in the media today- it would be hard not to be repulsed by many activities done in the name of islam- i appreciate your sincere search for truth in the matter and your always respectful queries without implication or judgements attached to them.
peace

by the way- i thought you were a man for along time and sometimes didnt answer because you were so friendly and nice- that i thought engaging you might be tantamount to a minor flirtation-

just for the record

silly, aint i?

Thank you, Jihadist, Victoria and Nzmam for your candor and your explanations.

Victoria, yes, Gaby is short for Gabrielle. Actually, it's spelled Gabriele because I am originally from Germany.

Jihadist, your comments about Muslims in countries other than the Middle East were very enlightening. I think most Westerners base their concepts about Islam on news stories from the Middle East, the Taliban and al Quaeda. I hope you agree with me that the atrocities happening there would turn off any reasonable human being. Because most of the killings are purportedly in the name of Allah, Islam has been vilified unjustly.

However, if you were to reverse the faiths, and say Christians in Europe were to fight each other the way Muslims fight each other in Iraq, would you not draw hostile conclusions about the Christian faith?

By the way, I am not a Christian. I believe in a supreme being but do not follow any organized religion. I have drawn my own conclusions about what we call God many years ago and am comfortable with my believes.

wow zainab i really appreciate you on this post
salaams

GABY,

NZMAM is an acronym. My real name is Zainab (zay-nab.) You can pronounce NZMAM as n-z,mam.

"It's called "faith" for a reason" :

"The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate;..."

And what's your problem with that.

"I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it?"

Well, I think the only ones that will follow your "holy book" are those who have the same mentality as yourself. Such ideas as yours have been tested (Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc) Now if you were to compare the followers of said religions with the three monothiestic religions (individually), you would see what most choose.

Those who believe that Allah is their creator don't do so because it just says so in the Quran. Faith is something that is constantly changing, sometimes it becomes stronger, sometimes weaker, and if it gets weak enough, leads to disbeliefe in one's creator (i.e. atheism)

Vitoria wrote:

"do you really think that you could write a book that could affect peoples hearts and minds in say - 1400 or 2000 years from now?
or even one that could affect people powerfully tomorrow?
then i say- WRITE THAT BOOK!"

I'll make it easier on you and challenge you to write one chapter (or even one verse), like that there is in the Holy Quran.

do you really think those same people who hijack religion as an excuse to treat others poorly- if religion magically disappeared- dont you thinlk those same people would find some other ism to treat people poorly?

its hardly much of a reason to negate the impact some writings have had on generations of human beings- perhaps there is something you are missing in your analysis-

do you really think that you could write a book that could affect peoples hearts and minds in say - 1400 or 2000 years from now?
or even one that could affect people powerfully tomorrow?
then i say- WRITE THAT BOOK!

has it escaped your attention that those books have also inspired countless millions to treat other people well?
give credit where credit is due-
how often do you hear a murderer confess that they were motivated by reading the old testament?

i welcome intelligent comments here from all views- but just denigrating something arbitrarily and without 'proof' is the same thing youre complaining about from the faithful!

People CHOOSE what they wish to believe. As for religious texts, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fly for "proof" when someone says that whatever book is the word of God because it says so. Big deal! Hmmm... I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it? I have no problem with people of faith per se; I do have a problem when they try to bridge from "faith" to "proof" just because. All religious texts have holes in terms of them being the pure word of God: The Bible, significant portions of which written many years after Jesus' death; The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate; The Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith seeing things that no one else saw or has since found... need I go on?

The main issue I have with religion or secular law, for that matter, is that people hijack them to treat others poorly. By any standard, it should be unacceptable.

People CHOOSE what they wish to believe. As for religious texts, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fly for "proof" when someone says that whatever book is the word of God because it says so. Big deal! Hmmm... I could make up a religious text of my own and create some God (even myself!), then down the road people will believe it just because it says so in the book! Doesn't make much sense, does it? I have no problem with people of faith per se; I do have a problem when they try to bridge from "faith" to "proof" just because. All religious texts have holes in terms of them being the pure word of God: The Bible, significant portions of which written many years after Jesus' death; The Koran, supposedly dictated to someone who was illiterate; The Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith seeing things that no one else saw or has since found... need I go on?

The main issue I have with religion or secular law, for that matter, is that people hijack them to treat others poorly. By any standard, it should be unacceptable.

Hi Gaby- I live in Queens NY- and I drive like crazy everywhere that I have to- I shop alone because I dont have any male relatives and my husband is usually working- well my father is in Pittsburgh but hasnt ever been concerned about my comings or goings. So Im quite used to getting around on my own- as ive only been married for 9 months- ive been doind it all my life. I wear the hijab(headscarf) and get asked at least once a week if im a nun-
i have the map of ireland on my face as they say-
and almost every day for a solid 8 years now someone somewhere asks me where im originally from.
When i say Pittsburgh- they invariably always say-
Before that?
When I go out- I dont shake the hands of men- but its always accompanied by a polite lifting of my hand to my chest and extensive explanation- (which usually outlasts the time period that it would have taken to just shake hands) many times men are not aware of the reasons behind it and are ususally satisfied- it is imporatant to make the distinction between rejection and a practice based on religion.
The Prophet(pbuh) would shake hands firmly with people- using both hands- never being the first to let go- we always try to emulate his high manners.

I know this isnt really an answer to your query- its just another perspective as the other ladie answered so well already.
peace GABY and thanks for your always reasonable attitude.
btw- is GABY short for Gabrielle? just curious
peace

Gaby,
Forgive me. I did not know about your father and husband and your genuine interest in knowing and understanding. Too many in the On Faith postings slinging cheap, easy and obvious shots at Muslims, Islam and Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

I am a Southeast Asian Muslim. Islam is not "spread by the sword" here. Apart from the Islam, we are also shaped by our traditional culture. And Southeast Asian Muslims normally wear headscarves if they covered their heads.

By the way, Arab Muslims are less than 20% of the world's Muslims. Southeast Asian Muslims, Malay Muslims, easily outnumber Arab Muslims.

Traditionally, we informed a member, or all members of our family in the household as to where we are going. This is before handphones/cellphones/mobiles and we still do. Culturally rude not to do so and we still do for the extended family is still prevalent. Southeast Asian Muslims are more family based, and not tribal based culturally.

And of course, Southeast Asian Muslim women culturally don't have to be accompanied by men to attend and be in social gatherings, but being alone in a secluded place with a fellow you are not married to is socially suspect.

If you ask an Iranian, Nigerian, Indian, Pakistani, Bosnian, Moroccan, Bangladeshi Muslim, the answer may be different.

"Western propoganda slinger" is a new one Gaby. Love that phrase:)

Thank you for you insights, NZMAM! Much appreciated. I now better understand what is and is not allowed although I have difficulty comprehending it. Maybe I'm too old and have forgotten the fire of my youth.

By the way, can you tell me how to pronounce your name? It's quite a tongue twister for me.

GABY,

"I have been told that Muslim women are forbidden to socially interact with males unless accompanied by a male member of their household."

The answer to this statement depends on what you mean by "socially interact".

If, for example, to interact means going shopping and asking a male associate for help in finding something, then the answer is no it's not forbidden. If, for example, to interact means going to a male doctor and being alone with him in the exam room, then the answer is yes it is forbidden. Women are allowed in Islam to go out unaccompanied by a male relative if she were to go to school, work, shopping, etc. as long as she makes sure that she will not find herself secluded with another male (for her own well-being) It is only recommended that a male relative accompanies her if she knows that there's a chance that she might be left alone with another male.

There's a saying of Prophet Mohamed(PBUH) which goes something like this, "When a man and a woman are left alone together, satan is the third present."

JIHADIST wrote:
"When you go out of your house, surely you tell your father or husband where you are going just so they know and not be hysterical not knowing where you are?"

I might be mistaken GABY, but I think JIHADIST means that if some catasrophic event were to happen while you were out, your relatives might become hysterical not knowing if you're okay or not. I think that they would be better off knowing where you are, just in case something happens they can be reassured where you are and not be too worried about you.(Unless they know that you were at the place where the incident occured, GOD forbid)

Also, my questions are genuine because I'd like to understand and be told by people who should know instead of some western propaganda slinger.

By the way I am not obsessed by what Muslim women wear, although I find their outfits curious. Especially in light of the climate in middle eastern countties. It would seem that under an apparently heavy, black garment reaching from head to toe they'd have to be sweating like crazy.

Jihadist,

Actually I can't tell my father, he's dead. And I don't tell my husband because he and I have different work schedules. And why on earth would they be hysterical about my whereabouts as long as I am back home at a decent hour (say prior to nine p.m.)?

I am safe going out without having to wear Muslim clothing. Men do not harass me, they'd have a little something coming if they tried.

I understand the middle east is a hazardous place. But who says it'll be the woman who gets shot, could be the man as well. Who will carry him to the hospital?

Anyhow, I think you missed the gist of my question. I have been told that Muslim women are forbidden to socially interact with males unless accompanied by a male member of their household. I am just trying to find out if that is true and in keeping the the Koran, or if it is societal phenomenon of middle eastern societies where Islam is the predominant religion.

GABY
When you go out of your house, surely you tell your father or husband where you are going just so they know and not be hysterical not knowing where you are?

Muslim women do go out alone, whether single or married. In a chador, hijab or burqa, they are safe. Men never harassed them. And going out with a male member of the family in rather hazardous places like Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan is safer and makes sense. Who is going to carry you to the hospital if you got hurt by a bomb blast or bullet/s?

NZMAM,

Sorry about the typo re your name. Glad you got the joke about our Islamic garb. Only a Muslim can joke about such things eh :)

Here's one told to me told by an Iranian lady friend:

A shoplifter was caught on camera in a Tehran supermarket. Police are now looking for a person wearing a black chador.

And yes, it does not make sense why the west is obsessed about Muslim women wearing clothes like nuns. Must be their hangups about mysterious, exotic ladies in harems they saw and read about from 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century paintings and books.

The fashion designers of London, Paris and New York are the Ayatollahs and Popes of fashion. The fatwas of Vogue's editor, of what to wear this season is slavishly followed by the fashionistas.

NZMAM and VICTORIA:

Thanks for the answer. I was told that by some other people but wanted to hear it from a Muslim woman.

Also, the reference to nuns and Mary makes sense. I remember in earlier days that Catholic women covered their head in church.

I agree with the Hermit that Muslim women should be able to wear what they want. But I want to make sure they do so out of your own free will.

The next question I have is the one about being able to meet freely with others, including men, whithout having male supervision from a family member. Can you or can't you. And if not, why not?

Hmmmm,

Can anyone tell me why nuns cover their heads?

I would also like to know why all of the statues/pictures depicting Mary (May Allah be pleased with her) have her wearing a scarf over her head?

Oh, one more question,
Why do Jewish women wear wigs?

I know I can google these questions, but I'm so busy sometimes that I dread going through so many pages looking for a straight answer. (If no one here answers, then it will be inevitable)

@Jihadist

When you typed NIZAM, were you referring to me. My username is NZMAM, I have no idea who NIZAM is.

"The last I heard, Muslim women in the Middle East are removing their hijabs, chadors and burqas for the Tehran, Mecca, Baghdad or Kabul tan, but they really got sunburnt in the desert sun,and sand in very private parts of the body, so, back to the chadors, hijabs and burqas for them."

You know, this reminds me of something. When I was in college (Brooklyn, NY), I used to wear (and still do) a long veil. I stopped by a pharmacy on my way home and at the checkout there was a lady that was burnt to a crisp (over-tanned is such a light term to use.) When she saw me, she said. "I have been thinking about dreesing like you." I started laughing and she looked at me and said, "Really, I'm serious!"

The prescription for head-covering is not unique to Islam. The Mennonite Church I grew up in was pretty liberal on the subject,but others are stricter:

http://www.anabaptists.org/bh/t19.html

I'm with Victoria on this one; if a woman covers her head as her own choice, to show her devotion, that's fine. Sikh men wear a turban for the same reason. Banning it completely (as in France and Holland recently) is just as oppressive to those who choose freely to wear it as forcing someone to wear it.

Me, I cover my head, because the beautiful flowing ringlets of my rock n' roll youth have abandoned me, and my poor bald middle aged head gets cold in the winter...vanity is a fleeting thing...

Regards

A Hermit

Victoria,
My irritation re western obsession with what Muslim women wear, equating it with being "liberated", is because the majority of Muslim women live in developing/third world countries.

Getting access to better health, education, jobs and just to get out of poverty is the primary concern for these Muslim women, not what they wear. The western obsession on Muslim female garb subsumes all these larger issues for Muslim women in the third world.

Who cares about or really heard of Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others of their ilks in the wider Muslim world on their points about the state of Muslim women in history and currently designed for the western audience to perpetuate the notion of repressed and suppressed Muslim women? We know that already and better than them.

Better to read about the Muslim women's organizations in Islamic societies and what they are doing to improve the lot of their Muslim sisters. They did more on the ground than the likes of Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali can ever do in their rounds to seminars and conferences, at a very high fee I heard.

Yes, well, I am bringing third world perspectives in these On Faith threads which are too American centred and focussed. From what I have read here, foreigners knows more about America that Americans knows about the world. And very terrifying to know so, for the United States takes it upon itself to shape and resphape the world without fully understanding and/or ignoring the history, culture and religions in other countries.

its a mystery to me jihad- but out of deference to a respectful question asked by a poster here-

i live i america and wearing hijab hasnt really done me any service here- but i am the first to state when given respect for it-(from other well meaning muslims) that it is because i ave the freedom of choice- and that if it were imposed on me id be the first to rip it off and burn it- the negative responses dont usually bear a response-
(i have to be honest- niqabis scare me too)

but i had the option of not wearing one most of my life-

people certinly do preoccupy themselves with trivialities though---

Good Lord Nizam and Victoria! Why do Muslims and non-Muslims obsessed so much about what Muslim women wear or do not wear?

The last I heard, Muslim women in the Middle East are removing their hijabs, chadors and burqas for the Tehran, Mecca, Baghdad or Kabul tan, but they really got sunburnt in the desert sun,and sand in very private parts of the body, so, back to the chadors, hijabs and burqas for them.

I wonder why western men complained about the face veil that Muslim women wear in the streets but not when the belly dancers wear them.

Well, I don't wear a scarf, chador, hijab or burqa. No one asked me to, no one forced me to. But, it is the kind of country and society I live in. My family and friends who did so wore them out of personal political, cultural and religious convictions.

As for political convictions, it seems that nothing terrifies a westerner more than to see a Muslim women in full chador, burqa, hijab with a face veil - UFOs (Unindentified Female Objects).

And, in such so-called bogey gear, to demonstrate noisily in front of BBC and CNN on Iraq, Palestine and such, screaming insanely -"Death to whomever" to perpetuate the image.

Shall I wear a one for Halloween when I visit the United States just to terrify Americans?

sorry about that gaby- i wrote so many pages on the subject in this forum that i forgot to refer you-
i have to find it now-
thank you nzman- i remeber reading a line about not blindly following the ways of ones parents- and an exhortation to reas the Qur'an and if one finds what it contains valuable to use ones own reason to discern this(i paraphrase)
ill find it eventually-
salaams

Salaam,

1. There's one verse in Surah 27, verse 34 (If you don't know what the story is about, I suggest you read the whole thing, it's not too long and it would make better sense that way)

She said: "Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of it's people it's lowest; thus do they behave"
Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

2. Surah 21, verses 51 to 56 (doesn't mention anything about the Quran because it was revealed after the time of Prophet Ibraheem)

51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and We were well acquainted with him.

52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which you are so devoted?"

53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."

54. He said, "Indeed you have been in manifest error, you and your fathers"

55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"

56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He who created them (from nothing) and I am a witness to this truth"
Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

Vicoria, I hope you don't mind, but I want to try and answer Gaby's question about the head scarf (you can add anything as you see fit)

Hello GABY
The most important reason for women wearing a head scarf (AKA veil) is laid out in the Quran in simple terms, Chapter 24 (The Light) Verse 31

In that verse, Allah tells His final prophet to tell the believing women to not display their beauty and draw their veils over their bosoms. They are only allowed to reveal their beauty in front of their fathers, brothers, husbands, uncles, grandfathers, sons, nephews, step-sons, father-in-law, small children, other women, and very old men (who are no longer interested in women's beauty)

The reason why that it's only for women and not men is because the hair of the woman is like an adornment to her, if she's not that pretty it makes her look somewhat better and if she is pretty, it makes her look beautiful. Do you not know that some women spend hours trying to look their best before leaving the house, and if they plan to stay home the whole day they couldn't care less how they look. Well in Islam, it's supposed to be the other way around, look your best at home and dress modestly when you go out, which means wearing the veil, wearing long length, long-sleeved, loose-fitting, non-transparent clothes and no make-up or perfume (although unscented deoderant should be a must)

Peace

actually there are 2 questions i have- one is do you know where the verse is about the king ruling a country leading it to corruption? i think there is also someting about the despotic tyrant in there-

and te other is the one that says one must read the Qur'an themsleves and not blindly follow the ways of their fathers-

icant seemto find them-
salaams

I couldnt get the comments but looked at another article on jobs in the us paying less to muslims and was tempted to post as the queen of queens (as i live there) but it would have antagonized and thats not a good reason to do that also time for salah
salaaams

Salaam Victoria,

Did you check out the comments beneath the article? There are many people who like to judge Islam's treatment of women based on what they hear in the media without really knowing women's status in Islam.

I have seen a lot of instances where some just copy and paste ayat (verses) from the Quran to defend their ignorance about how women are supposed to be treated in Islam. The sad part is when one tries to explain it to them (using the tafseer or explanation of the Holy Quran) not only do they not want to hear it, but say things like "reading out of context" and "bad translations" are excuses and that whatever the verse says, that's what it means. Don't get me wrong, some actually make an effort to try and understand what Islam is about, especially in regards to women.

For example,
(Taken from page one at this discussion)
13. Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched (had contact) a woman lately. 4:43

This verse, like all of the other verses posted here, is way out of context. The actual verse is eight lines long (in English) five and a half lines long (in Arabic).

In the Quran, the statement "have had contact woman appears more than once. If you have limited or no knowledge of tafseer Al-Quran (explanation of the Quran, NOT translation) you would probably assume to touch or have contact with a woman is just what it says.

On the other hand, those Muslims and non-Muslims who want to know what Islam is REALLY about and take the time to research, they would know that "have had contact with women" means "have had sexual contact with women". In Islam, one is not allowed to pray in a state of sexual impurity. A shower is a must before prayers are offered.

When I say pray, I don't mean opening up your hands and asking Allah (God) for what you want, that's called supplicating (Arabic: Du'aa) That can be done whenever a person wants. By praying, I mean the formal prayers that a Muslim must observe five times daily.

I have very reasonable explanations to ALL of the verses that were submitted here on page one. Although I don't have the time to explain them one by one, I will gladly give anyone Islam's view about a certain verse, if asked.

Peace on those who follow guidance.

PS excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes, I was typing in a hurry. Time for Salah.

Peace