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Gee, this is boring.
Can we go back to discussing atheism?
After becoming a skeptic regarding new age stuff, I expanded my skepticism and evaluated everything with a critical eye. The magical explanations in Christianity & other religions looked sillier and sillier to me, and eventually I just realized I'd stopped believing in any supernatural, including God. That was such a relief! I had been skeptical since childhood but I'd gone along with religion, and found some comfort and community there. But once I realized the basic foundation was a sham I just couldn't keep it up. I left the church and never went back. Even when my life has been in danger, it never occurred to me to pray and yet I survived those incidents.
After over 20 years, Christianity seems sillier and sillier to me. I appreciate some of the moral philosophy of Christ's teachings, but the rest are just bizarre when seen from outside. The final nail in the coffin for me was when I realized the Eucharist was a cannabilistic practice. Now there's no going back!
well, that was a quick transition from atheism, but the panel is one 'on faith' after all.
at least the past few days have opened the eyes of lots of folks. the clear cold dose of rational discourse might have done some good, who knows? at the least, the utter cluelessness of the professional relgious class with regard to atheism was exposed for all to see.
okay so it's probably back to personal testimonial around here; i think they've had enough of that lucid debunking of superstitious claptrap. seems to hit a bit close to home. so far, the only real response from the religious seems to be "oh yeah, well you're just another religion like us!!" talk about missing the point. but it was fun while it lasted. now i can go back to my hobby of not collecting postage stamps.
To Amy,
Suppose you had a great-great-great-great grandfather, from the northern states, who purchased a draft "substitute" (authorized by the US Congress during the Civil War). That "substitute" went off in place of your ancestor and, because of that very real "purchase" your ancester lived and, flip the calendars forward, you surface in the 20th century and are able to write in the 21st century, because of a substitute - maybe one who lost his life in your ancestor's place.
When we read about such "substitution" in Dicken's "A Tale of Two Cities," we recognize that as fiction. Maybe fiction designed to illustrate the substitutional death of Christ, borne out of a great love. But in the case of Civil War Draft Substitutes, no one can squirm or wiggle away from reality - descendants exist today solely because of substitutionary deaths during the Civil War.
There are people alive today and their life is attributable, in part, to the use of a substitute who took someones place 145 years ago.
Maybe the substitute(s) died in combat and their blood was shed. Cannabilistic?
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
To Amy,
Suppose you had a great-great-great-great grandfather, from the northern states, who purchased a draft "substitute" (authorized by the US Congress during the Civil War). That "substitute" went off in place of your ancestor and, because of that very real "purchase" your ancester lived and, flip the calendars forward, you surface in the 20th century and are able to write in the 21st century, because of a substitute - maybe one who lost his life in your ancestor's place.
When we read about such "substitution" in Dicken's "A Tale of Two Cities," we recognize that as fiction. Maybe fiction designed to illustrate the substitutional death of Christ, borne out of a great love. But in the case of Civil War Draft Substitutes, no one can squirm or wiggle away from reality - descendants exist today solely because of substitutionary deaths during the Civil War.
There are people alive today and their life is attributable, in part, to the use of a substitute who took someones place 145 years ago.
Maybe the substitute(s) died in combat and their blood was shed. Cannabilistic?
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
To Amy,
Suppose you had a great-great-great-great grandfather, from the northern states, who purchased a draft "substitute" (authorized by the US Congress during the Civil War). That "substitute" went off in place of your ancestor and, because of that very real "purchase" your ancester lived and, flip the calendars forward, you surface in the 20th century and are able to write in the 21st century, because of a substitute - maybe one who lost his life in your ancestor's place.
When we read about such "substitution" in Dicken's "A Tale of Two Cities," we recognize that as fiction. Maybe fiction designed to illustrate the substitutional death of Christ, borne out of a great love. But in the case of Civil War Draft Substitutes, no one can squirm or wiggle away from reality - descendants exist today solely because of substitutionary deaths during the Civil War.
There are people alive today and their life is attributable, in part, to the use of a substitute who took someones place 145 years ago.
Maybe the substitute(s), during the Civil War, died in combat and their blood was shed. Cannabilistic?
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Whether it is in the Old Testament or the New, redemption only comes from God after the shed blood of an innocent has been shed.
silence dogood
look, if you people want to drink your god's blood and eat his flesh (really or symbolically), then fine. but keep your sicko thinking to yourself.
i guess it's obvious why atheists are such a threat to the religious. their claim that EVERYONE has a religion, even those who avowedly reject the concept.
your last question shouldn't have been if there is any dialogue possible between bleivers and non-believers, but rather whether ANYone can reason with the faithful
To Silence Dogood,
I'm not convinced. If there has been any sacrifice of innocents that's made my life possible, it's the sacrifice of thousands of chickens, cows, and pigs that have nurtured me over the years.
Your incoherent metaphor doesn't do a thing for your case that cannibalism is redemptive.
Sorry. Try again.
Substitutionary deaths can project forward across centuries and people who are alive today may owe their lives to a substitute. While people may want to "dodge" this very real phenomenon in U.S. History, it can withstand every test a skeptic, atheist or agnostic can put it through.
We see it on Wild Kingdom and all of the Naturalist shows and everytime cubs or kittens have food, dripping in blood, brought to them from the plains of Africa, the cycle is repeated.
More palatable fare because we see it on TV?
"But in the case of Civil War Draft Substitutes, no one can squirm or wiggle away from reality - descendants exist today solely because of substitutionary deaths during the Civil War."
Realists, deal with the realities of blood and re-read Deuteronomy - the Life is in the Blood.
For me it was the study of and meditation upon Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki. No one or no thing died, except for my idea of a permanent self.
Drinking the blood of a human is repulsive to me. Sorry. I just can't go along with a theology that promotes that.
My religious formation as a totally innocent baby began in the Lutheran Church in Utah. They taught me Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Blacks, Latinos, homosexuals and Communists all were evil agents of Satan and that God would fry these children of his in hell. The Christian ladies of this church told my mother my stillborn brother would go to hell too because there wasn't time to baptize him. It took me 20 years to rid myself of this brainwashing. My mother is still tormented at 84 because of this ignorance. Jesus weeps for such atrocities commited in his name.
this 'on faith' bunch loves to pose questions, so i sent them the following:
Why should religious institutions receive tax exempt status? Granted, any
charitable works by a religious institution should be tax exempt (as is true
for any business), but why should the administration and proselytizing
activities of these institutions be underwritten by the rest of us?
seems as good a time as any to grab some public space and ask some rude questions. hope nobody has a cow, man.
"free and open debate on religion" is a statement akin to: "canadian sex scandal"
you know what all the words mean separately, but you never expect to see them together.
To Roy and Dodger,
Christ's atoning work on the cross so many centuries ago - where after he was pierced and He bled - is sufficient to cover large quantitites of rudeness and right bad theology not confirmed by scripture.
We all know what Christ said about all of the little children.
To Roy and Dodger,
Christ's atoning work on the cross so many centuries ago as a substitute- where he was pierced and He bled - is sufficient to cover large quantitites of rudeness and right, or correct bad Utah theology not confirmed by scripture.
We all know what Christ said about all of the little children.
perhaps you should rephrase the question and ask about TERMINAL religous experiences. bet they're more interesting. and numerous.
look carefully at your home town and you'll see the uptown, traditional chruchs emptying out. instead you have suburban (often mega) churches with ever more esoteric and fringe appeal.
these mega churches have nothing in common with the cozy, local churches of our past. there's none of the interlacing activities (choir, sunday school, youth groups) etc. that guaranteed social support and interated individual interaction.
no, these are more like attending a weekly political rally. in fact, that's not a bad description of modern american evangelical christianity. not only have the worship patterns transformed beyond recognition, these congregations also now constitute the entirity of Bush's political support (25-30%). not surprising.
Growing up white and Christian in the segrated South, I questioned discrimination against Blacks. Why would people treat other people so badly?
I was assured by all but a few adults that segregation of the inferior races was what God intended, as proven by the Old Testament, and that those who would oppose God's Word were Outside Agitators and Communists. When I insisted that the Jesus described in the New Testament could not support racism, and cited Bible passages to prove it, the adults grew very angry. Formerly kindly grey-haired relatives would yell at me.
I learned at a young age that people do not follow their religion so much as their religion follows what they want to believe. And I learned what people said was God's Word could not be taken at face value. That galvanizing experience set me on a path of thinking about meaning and morality for myself. As a result, I am now an atheist and existentialist.
People still yell at me for not believing their Religious Truth.
My whole life has been a series of endless formative experiences- it took me through many different rituals and philosophies- it started as a very young child for me- my dad was an atheist and my mom an agnostic- so i was lucky that i never had anything shoved down my throat- never indoctrinated by anything other than the freedom to discover for myself-
it is why my faith is so indominatable now-
because it IS based on questioning and challenging- on discovering the truth (for me as it only can be) of my place i the universe and my relation to it and all of creation-
the formative experience that led me to where i am now- as a practicing Muslim- had no human intervention at all-
i didnt know a single muslim- actually i thought they were called muslims becasue i thought they wore a white cloth called "muslin"
at first before i looked for the reason of course-
i prayed for maybe 1 or so years a certain prayer-
i was extremely dissatisfied with how i saw people practicing their faiths- how different religions led people to treat each other-
for example- the concept of reincarnation i observed led its practitioners to look at anyone who was suffering as deserving it because they had done something in another life to "deserve" it-
a cripple had crippled someone else in another life-
so by extending human compassion to them in this life they were actually interfering with the spiritual development of said sufferer-
talk about a rationale for complacency!
i found most religions seemed to actually produce behavior the OPPOSITE of its purported intentions.
with a heart straining to find understanding- and heavy with despair- i asked god
PLEASE LEAD ME TO WORSHIP YOU THE WAY YOU WANT ME TO- NOT THE FORMS THAT I AM COMFORTABLE WITH-
i posted this prayer on my refrigerator and consistently made it my mantra- and then paid attention-
it is sad and interesting to me that so many people have expereinces that they let others impose on them and then reacted against- but then just gave up.
not all who have the true freedom to pursue truth(mine of course is personal for me)
come to the same conclusion.
My conclusion is indisputably (for me) Islam.
thank you and may god lead you to peace
I PROMISE I WONT YELL AT ANYONE
My most formative religious experience was reading the books of JD Crossan (Who is Jesus?, The Historical Jesus, Excavating Jesus, and In Search of Paul), Karen Armstrong's The History of God, and Edward Schillebeeckx's Church, The Human Story of God. This along with verification of the conclusions of these NT exegetes by a good friend who teaches Theology at a large Catholic university put my "Catholicism/Christianity" in the proper context as follows:
--------- the Twelve Commandments Rule!!!! (Eight if you are an atheist)
plus
a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.
b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.
c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.
d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.
e. Christ’s Spirit resides in Heaven with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.
f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.
g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception.
h. Happiness in Heaven is not a gradient but is dependent on the number of souls present.
i. Purgatory is possible but has no Scriptural foundation.
j. Hell is possible but would God tolerate Satan spirits and contaminated souls?
k. God does not know the future.
l. Predestination should not be a word.
m. Canonization of the likes of Pio and Juan eliminates any consideration of papal infallibility.
n. Exodus should not be a word.
o. ditto for the Christmas manger.
p. The Eucharist is a fantastic spirit symbol of our thanksgiving but body and blood do not exist there. Continued crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous.
q. Confirmation is only symbolic of our adult acceptance of the Christ’s rules for humanity and our belief in God.
r. Dividing God into three parts violates the first Commandment.
s. Substituting God in place of any reference to the Holy Spirit works quite well.
t. Holy Orders is relevant but not complete without access by females and married members.
u. Religions are slowly converging. See James Somerville’s “take” (See Google).
v. As per Somerville, “Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door” i.e. there is no religion in Heaven.
w. Lourdes et al as per Crossan prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith. http://www.ntgateway.com/xtalk/crossan3.txt
Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", September 11, the Prophet Muhammad cartoon controversy, and the Hajj - in that order.
Never heard of a "born again" Muslim? I am one. But oh, no dunking in water is involved to wash away my sins as an indifferent Muslim before.
Hello Dodger and Victoria. I see you both here too. I have been reading these On Belief threads/posts as I am on vacation up to this weekend. For want of something better to do in my free time, and to learn what others think on religion and God, beliefs and non-belief, and believers vs. non-believers.
Very entertaining I must say. And terrifying too. Fanatics are everywhere regardless of beliefs, gender and sex. And people talking past each other as always.
My job was going to be eliminated very soon and I was looking for a good job elsewhere, but to keep my pension, I needed to keep working for the same people. I asked God to give me a sign, that all would be well and a pure white dove flew in the open window behind my desk, over my shoulder, flew across the room, crashed into a closed window, recovered from the collision and then found his way back through another open window. I took it as a sign as the going would be difficult, but eventually, I'd succeed in saving my pension. I'm now retired. I got a job elsewhere with the same people and worked long enough to keep my pension. This is the truth.
I stood on top of a hill on the farm I grew up on as a young man during a tremendous thunder storm. I saw Him riding on the clouds throwing lighting all around. One split the tree near me in half. From that day I knew the truth and I would forever revere Thor, God of Thunder and Lightning, as the most powerful of the Gods!
my awakening was set during my catechism classes - you know, those Saturday morning affairs.
The dear old Reverend was discussing how Mary found out she was pregnant by "immaculate conception" and what she must have been going through.
He asked for questions....
"What about Joseph? How did HE feel? He knew he wasn't the father!" was blurted out before I could even think on it...this was fascinating to a 10 year old....!
I learned the value that day of the pregnant pause and the ultimate of surprise when authority was questioned.
He had no answer, and just sat there-a bit stunned, I suppose.
"Anyone else?" he said.....
I wanted a discussion! I was really curious on this one. This was in the early 1950s.
Took that lesson very much to heart - and much wiser and happier for it.
withheld
so some poor bird has to fly into a closed window and get his noggin smashed in order for your invisible friend to talk to you? kinda tough on the bird, don't you think? wouldn't an email be more humane?
For me, the most formative religious experience I have ever had ( and continue to have ) is a personal relationship with God and His Son, Yeshua (Jesus).
I was brought up in an extremely hostile environment, but was sent to 'Sunday School' at a young age to teach me to 'fear' God. Since this was a conservative Southern Baptist church, it worked. I was scared to death of God and knew that I should 'be good' or God was going to send me to hell. As I grew a little, I started noticing that the adults around me did not practice what they preached. This led me to great sadness, confusion and many, many, questions.
Long story short.......I studied everything I could get my hands on. I wanted to find out for myself what was truth and what was 'man's truth'. After many years of study, prayer, meditation and so on...I came to realize that only God can enlighten your heart and open up your eyes to His truth. I studied many, many different religions, truths, philosophies, and belief systems. God drew me to Him and I will never be the same again!(cliche - I know...but truth).
I thought this was "What Was Your Religious Experience", not "Is Modern Theism Right Or Wrong"?
I was born and raised Catholic. I started to wander when I was 10, having had enough dogma rammed down my throat to actively dislike the religion. Now, having distanced myself, I see that it is a valid system that is corrupted by fallible members. The tenets, if I remember correctly, was love thy neighbor and forgive thy brother not seven times, but seven times seventy seven. So, yeah, this whole new-world extremist Catholic business... well, they aren't really Catholics by definition. Judge not, lest ye be judged and all.
Anyway.
MY religious experience kinda sucked. It also happened to be the most powerful one I can think of. I lived next to a large national preserve that the locals had come to respect and fear as a sanctuary for otherworldly entities. Spirits, Fae, whatever they called them, I know myself they exist because some of the bastards decided to nest in my noggin. I felt sickish, when cut I bled maroon-green, and I swear I could hear voices of things calling me back into the woods. A very dear friend who dabbles in mysticism (to make an already long story short) ripped them out of my head. It hurt, and it felt like I had a hole in my skull for a while.
Needless to say, I'm a little bit more wary of strange places and mystical people. Some people may not believe in it, but nobody's going to tell me what I experienced wasn't real.
Religion is a scam. Anyone who worships words written thousands of years ago by elitist men is a neanderthal. I agree the concept and I see the need for man to be held accountable for his actions, but for people to kill each other over an archaic idea that has been rewritten and translated hundreds of times over is a little sad and a whole lot scary.
There's not a person in the world who really needs religion ... just be the nicest, most polite, and understanding person you can be in all situations you find yourself and you're practising what should be the basics of any religion in the world. It's that pure and simple.
Todd Sentell, Author of Toonamint of Champions
I have moved from a traditional Methodist upcoming to atheism and to the vary satisfying position of agnosticism and am continually amazed by how normally skeptical, inquisitive people accept belief in God without question. There's plenty of room for skepticism, espcially in the Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus was one of many messiahs two millenia ago, and Christianity was a minor sect until the 4th Century, when Roman emperor Constantine decided it would be useful in managing his empire if he made Christianity the official faith of the empire. The gospels in the Bible were written by men with their prejudices and options injected, and there were also several other gospels written at the time, but the leaders of the Christian faith cherry-picked the ones that told the story they wanted. If any normal, skeptical, inquisitive person looks into it, there's plenty of reason not to believe.
Taking Communion after being Confirmed. I felt so clean!
I was baptized as a baby in the Roman Catholic Church. I attended a Catholic grammer school and taught well, in every sense, by my teachers. My mother was Catholic, Dad was Lutheran. Neither have ever been very active in their churches. Nonetheless, my father, at the age of 81 can recite all the commandments and beatitudes. But more than that, he lives them every day. My dad is a simple man, but probably the most spiritual of anyone I know. He honors the earth and all of its flora and fauna.
As I entered my teen years, the Catholic church as I had been taught was changed. Last week it was a sin to eat meat on Friday, this week it was only a suggestion. Last week I had to cover my head when I went into church, this week it didn't matter. I feared purgatory as a child, suddenly it had disappeared. My thinking was that if it was wrong last week, it should still be wrong this week. How do you change the rules?
That set me on what has turned out to be a lifelong quest. I have been a Lutheran, a Methodist, a Unitarian, a Baha'i, and a Presbyterian. I must admit, I have never studied Eastern religion, but I am of the mind that it is probably not all that different at its root.
If I were to practice a religious faith, and I am not at all sure that I can, or would, then the concept of Progressive Revelation makes the most sense to me.
It goes like this: When man first started believing in a force/power/god the rules were very simple, i.e., this is wrong, this is right.
Then as time went on more prophets and leaders added to the message and religions became to be local, then regional, ultimately world-wide. Through this, the message basically remained the same, love God and love your Neighbor. But as the prophets came along, the message was amended and ideas, rules, concepts were added on. It goes back to ancient times, before Zarathustra, to Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Each great religion has a prophet, Zarathustra, Zoroaster, Abraham, Buddha, Jesus Christ. Progressive revelation teaches that each of these persons were emanations of God, each sent to a time and place where he (it seems all of them are men???) would be received and believed. To my way of thinking, it would not make sense that Jesus Christ was the Savior of the Chinese...Why would the spiritually inclined Chinese understand or believe a Jew from the Middle East? He has no credability. Same with the reverse. God sent his prophets to advance his message by appealing to the people of that time and place.
But if I don't believe in religion, what do I believe? I believe in goodness and evil. I believe the good are rewarded, sometimes in ways they don't even know or understand, and I also believe that evil gets its just desserts.
I believe that if I treat you with warmth and respect, you will give me the same. Naive? Probably, but you know, I've been much more content and happy with my overall response to the inhabitants of this world since I started doing this. So I guess the bottom line is that I am a believer in doing what's right, not hurting others in any way (personally, environmentally, etc.) and choosing to see the goodness all around me.
I wish all of you could find this place, it's kind of nice here.
What if someone discovered the last missing piece to figuring out when the Second Coming is going to be based on first time, ancient secrets revealed that detail final steps to occur?
What occurs that triggers the Second Coming?
What has yet to occur prior to the Second Coming?
What connections are there between modern day, bio-medical advancements with ancient secret divinations?
Which ONE of the Ten Commandments has not been broken in the past 4,000-years? Does this event, when it occurs, usher in the Second Coming?
Since 1990 and in the years that have followed, I have come to the eye popping conclusion and extraordinary realization of the truth to what graven images actually were in ancient times. Indeed, how the ancient Assyrians possessed a capability requiring the slaying of first born males, coupled with occult worshiping divinations, that made it capable for them that possess these devices, to receive answers to any questions posed.
The Book of Jasher, translated from Hebrew to English in 1840 AD, was published in English 1887 AD. Jasher describes an entirely plausible yet bizarre and unbelievably..., one of the most extrordinarily profound findings in the past 160-years.
In one portion of Jasher, it describes the life and times surrounding Jacob and Rachel; their courtship; long, long engagement; his weddings; their dealings with her Dad: Laban, the Assyrian, rancher and wealthy and powerful man. In short, Jasher takes the descriptions in Genesis 31, "one step further" when it says in verse, 19, that basically, when Rachel finds her father away from his home, out shearing sheep (and I expect gone for days) Rachel steals her father's image (with no explanation as to what a graven image is or why Rachel steals it from her Dad.)
Enter Jasher. It goes on to describe a graven image. How they were created. What sacrifices it included, everything.
Jasher describes an object created from the head of a sla...
Why do I bother explaining? No one has an inkling of an understanding or care about this anyway.
I'm the one catapulted into the middle of this and I guess I can't pawn it off on y'all. But, ready or not, it's coming.
A whole new vista of understanding is just before us that will attract the masses and divide the faithful.
My most formative religious experience was getting baptized Mormon when I was 9. I am now 38. I didn't even know what a Mormon was until then. But I am so glad that me, my sister and my Mom were baptized. It really changed the whole course of my life. My parents were divorced when I was young, and so having such a great support system mixed with feeling that Jesus truly loved me, made all the difference in the world. I noticed that when my friends were going in the wrong direction, I was able to have the strength to go in the right one. Eventually, I changed the kind of friends I had to ones that wouldn't experiment with drugs, sex and so on. Most major life decisions have come back to my baptism. I will always be grateful to God!
Mine was without a doubt the first Grateful Dead concert I ever attended back in 1980 (defining "religious" as "magical; life-altering"). It altered my state of being and changed the course of my life, for which I am still thankful 27 years later.
I woke up in a abandoned shack full of cobwebs, spiders and dirt all over the room. I was laying on a blanket with cigarette butts and ashes all around me. I began looking at where fifteen years of drug addiction had brought me. I had been in and out of jails since the age of thirteen.
I had a deep feeling of loneliness deep down in my heart. I lost everything that was dear to me. I knew there had to be a better way of life. I was twenty-nine years old with no hope, no direction and no future. That morning I made a decision that would change my life forever. May 3rd 1989 I went into a residential home in Chicago. I gave my life completely to Jesus Christ. I have been drug free for eightteen years. I am living proof that anyone, anywhere can change through the power of Jesus Christ. Total Recovery Is possible.
One more thing, On the issue of Hell as a repository for bad people...
If we are, as Chtisitanity teaches, made in the image and likeness of God, and we are supposedly his most favorite creatures, why would he cast any of us to hell to suffer for eternity?
I don't buy it.
Rick H,
Second Coming? Ask Bernard Lewis and Robert Spenser. They predicted it some months back. It came and went - End of Days/Armageddon actually, being predicted by them.
Second Coming to be preceded by the nuking of Iran or by Iran. Or of Israel or by Israel. Ask Pat Robertson too. He knows all about the Second Coming.
I don't understand how people who survived natural disasters (and lost friends, family, their homes, etc) all invariably seem to "praise God" that they were "saved". No mention of the horrible fate that they suffered!
Forget selling ice to the Eskimos -- if I had God's PR company, I could convince them to become Amway-style distributors and recruit their friends and neighbors to help sell it.
In the Bible myth, (Saint) Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection until he could touch the wounds. My question to the modern Church is this: Why must we be held to such a higher standard of faith than a SAINT?
Maybe there is a God. Maybe not. But I don't believe for a minute that organized religion has any more of a clue about it than I do.
Wow, what are you all doing on a site asking for your own personal religious experience? Here you are bashing something you most certainly know little or nothing about. I personally have "faith". Not a religion but a relationship. With Jesus. That was all I started with. Parents who set a foundation. Then I grew up and did like the rest of the world does... but something was missing. So I started praying. Learned that as a child. Used it whenever I was at the end of a rope,so to speak. As an adult I wanted to hear God speak to me. That was my prayer. To see a miracle. Just one before I died. I heard of others and what they witnessed but I wanted it personally. There is scripture that tell you to seek Him while He is near. To know the truth and the truth will set you free. Well I have witnessed a dear friend one breath away from death, tumors protruding out of the turso and I know the prayers were for Gods will and not ours although ours were for her to live. With the "last breath she drew in" her color changed and her voice that was gone was back just as strong as if she were never sick. When we looked for the tumors - you can guess, they were gone! Yeah, you don't have to believe this believer, after all you didn't witness it, I did. You haven't heard the voice that I heard speak to me. You haven't seen the blood of the crucified Christ flow off your best friends forehead; and her wrists bleeding blood (at the Walmart checkout...the clerk had the look of shock and awe) a mom telling her kids not to stare when they said "hey" Did you see her hands...." Yeah, you may think I am full of it, but only God knows and I do that I speak the truth here. If you want to know the truth, really know the truth, look for God. I know you will find Him. He isn't hiding, he has been there all along just waiting for you. Oh, one last thing, if you were a betting person or even if your not. 50/50 chance that the Book is true, are you willing to take that chance. 50 percent says there is nothing after death, the other 50 says there is. Are you willing to take the bet there isn't??? And find out there is!!! Or rather believe there is and then if there isn't , oh well you'll never know anyway, right? Wrong. But don't take my word for it- Take His! Its the living word and the food of life. Your road map for living, and a direct line with the one true God. Look for yourself, he promised that if you seek Him, you Will find Him. Later <><
Cathia:
You speak of Pascal's Wager -- in which we should "believe" because the benefit of doing so is so great. I agree.
The problem is, how *can* I believe something so outlandish? I have personally witnessed exactly zero authentic, unexplainable miracles in my life. To pull off such events as Noah's Ark (not to mention the creation and the massive fabrication of scientific data that would be required for the Earth to be only a few thousand years old) would require God to execute miracle upon miracle.
If the God of the Bible does exist, He is quite the trickster. If He wanted to be found, He would be quite hard to miss.
I would very much like to believe in the Bible. I just cannot honestly bring myself to swallow it without some sort of proof. And to claim otherwise would be an insult to God's intelligence, should He actually exist. Bad idea, that.
Jesus died to pay a debt He didn't owe-my sin debt. He loves us and gave His life for us. He was our substitue-He took our place. He chose to die for all the wrong things we have done. All we have to do is accept Him and what He has done. He gave His very life and blood for us-how can we not give our lives to Him?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23.
The day I accepted Jesus as the substitute for my sin and received His forgiveness was the day my life changed, and I am eternally thankful for it.
I did not want anything to do with religion. Then one day I was overcome with a deep feeling of peace for a few hours. The feeling left and I missed it more than anything I had ever known. Then another day it returned and I intuitively knew it was Christ. Upon His leaving again I began telling friends about the experience and neither they or I could explain it. Then eventually He returned again, only this time with the peace and love came a deep feeling of guilt causing me to weep and anguish over my self. I somehow knew to ask forgiveness for what I was and to ask the Spirit Of Christ to abide in my soul. I went to sleep in tears and awoke the next day the happiest person ever. That was 37 years ago and counting. I stayed away from Church for fear of losing what I had, and started studying the Bible in an effort to find out what happened to me. I eventually came to the understanding that the wages of sin is death. And since Christ died being sinless, He was able to give the merits of His death to me. Because of this I believe and have eternal life, this is where my peace and happiness come from.
I walked into a Thai Buddhist temple in Penang, Malaysia. It was a hot humid day in the middle of its monsoon season. I remember I wanted to just take a quick tour of it. With the humidity in the air, it felt like it was 100 degrees and I was in a hurry to get back into my air conditioned hotel room. I entered the great hall an kneeled in front of the large statue of the Buddha to say a quick prayer. I prayed for a good new year. At the prayer, I thought about how hot it was and wished for some relief from the heat. At that moment, a gust of wind blew in. I was instantly cooled and felt relieved. I looked up at the Buddha and knew he heard my thoughts. I sat there for a long while collecting my thoughts before I got up and thanked the Buddha for his kindness.
1. When I was about 15 or 16, I was walking to school one mild winter morning, through a California orange grove. The rains had already come, and the grass had grown so high that it had flopped over in waves, coated with glittering dew. I thought, "The world is so beautiful, there must be a God."
2. I had just turned 20 that summer, and was at a remote beach north of Santa Cruz, where a friend had brought me for my first experience with LSD (one of very few). I picked up a rock that looked like half a large, egg-like ovoid. It had broken clean through the middle, so that part of it was old, ground smooth by the pounding surf, and part of it was new, freshly-broken by that same relentless process. I decided that everything could be explained, and there were no miracles, and that I must be an atheist.
3. Around 25 or 26, when I was still living in Santa Cruz, I was working hard, and also doing a lot of thinking about deep questions like these. While running to catch a bus, to get to work, it occurred to me that I could accept a definition of God if God was identified as the Universe. I felt like I believe in God again. I felt a kind of weight lift off my shoulders.
4. Since then, I've done a lot of reading and investigating. I feel religious, but I also feel that the word religious is misleading, since I find most "religious" people to be very caught up in supernaturalistic beliefs that I find childish, misleading, and even delusional. I understand the difference between us. I know the grace that religious people cherish so much. I them talking about feeling separate from God, or wanting to be close to God. I feel deeply satisfied by my spirituality because I discovered that nothing is separate from God.
5. About a year ago, as I sat on a bench near the beach in Hollywood, Florida looking out over the ocean to the horizon, I had another epiphany. Faith is about waiting. The opposite of faith is now.
"Jesus died to pay a debt"
If true, then Jesus does indeed deserve our undying love and respect.
But without some proof of such unusual claims, how can I, as a rational person, believe? (...and yes, I do want to believe, since as an agnostic, I very much fear death as I don't know what it will bring.)
Please don't give an answer along the lines of "you should believe because our idea of Heaven is so much nicer than nothing at all." I agree that it is -- but that doesn't make the story true.
How can a nonbeliever (or doubter; I don't claim to "know" that Christianity is wrong) come to believe without some sort of religious experience?
Christianity seems to have been hijacked by the Republican party. They plant their seed deep in weak minds and turn them into right-wing-radio listening wack jobs. It’s nauseating. I live in a small town and see the duplicity first hand - bunch of phony gossipy bastards who think they’re on the fast-track to heaven. Always trying to repress freedoms, and belittle people for not abiding by their moral code - while their sons and daughters spray paint obscenities onto the cars of the disliked in the community late at night. Always trying to intertwine Christianity and capitalism when Jesus would surely have been a socialist. One thing that gives the bible some credence in my opinion is that it suggests many times - that most people will go to hell, and that only a few will be saved - something pastors in my hick town never seem to mention.
My most formative religious experience was my realization that religion has very little to do with God, religion is just a manual (based on, unwritten and not known to common man, principles/laws on which our universe/life runs) about living one's life in the world so as to make the most of time & energy with which one is born. Religion (=duty) is just a living manual to live in world, like we have automobile manual as to how automobile should be run, when we should change gear-when we should press brake or push accelerator etc. Like there can be many investment strategies for making most of money, similarly there are many religions in the world. Name of God is taken by religious organizations to avoid questioning by people & to get special treatment.
A Dream
I awoke early one July morning 2006 with the remnants of a dream suspended in my mind like the aroma of a good coffee or cocoa one has not tasted in quite awhile. The details faded quickly, yet I recall lying upon a bed, my death bed perhaps, and being asked a final question by a vaguely familiar yet unplaceable figure. He was significant to me in some form or fashion, though in exactly what way I cannot say. He inquired, staring into my eyes, "What would you have us do?"
Weakly, my voice fading almost as fast as the memory of my dream just as my body seemed on the verge of awakening, I looked up at the figure and, smiling, said "Pursue your bliss..." then added after a short pause, "...and do no harm."
There was a significance in the dream on which I can neither wholly extrapolate nor fully quantify, yet it seems to me that these two phrases - pursue your bliss and harm no one - encapsulate the entire reason for the meaning of our lives, the guiding principles, if you will, which draw me closer and closer to my humanity and the humanity within us all.
Hard to pick one experience in a long journey, but if I had to I would probably point to my baptism at age 16. I expected it to be a profound moment, but instead I felt nothing. That may have been the beginning of the end of faith for me, but mostly just one of many moments of gradually increasing clarity.
At some point in my thirties I finally let go entirely and began to think of myself as an atheist. Life's been a lot better since then...
I just wonder if "bloggers" from the distant past with THOUSAND of years of knowledge (and possiible witness testimony) could post their thoughts.
Put things into perspective!
Signs are everywhere, from existence of ourselves, to the beauty of nature.
Not everything is a download, try to experience others.
A sign for me, I was given forgiveness, by experiencing birth of my daughter on my own Birthday. Look for signs friends. They do exist.
My religious experience was more gradual. I started out Catholic, because I was adopted by a kindly Catholic, went through the teen "finding myself" kind of thing, blamed the Catholic church for things that weren't its fault mostly, and wandered away. Curiously, my path became a sort of parabola, and by experience I learned that nearly everything the Catholic church had taught me had been right, and that everything I had received that was worth anything -- food, education, growing morals, my Dad's quiet faith and his sacrifice during WWII, his staunch provision for the family, and quiet love -- had been, directly or indirectly, as a result of the Catholic church. Thank you.
Being gay, my formative religious experience was the hellfire and brimstone rained down upon me constantly. I know I'm a good person and I know everything screamed at me by alleged Christians (among other religions) is just not true.
So, I became skeptical and finally realized I had been brainwashed. There is no ghost in the sky - period. I'm happy for anyone that decides being deluded is preferable to facing reality. I just wish they wouldn't demand that I follow suit. Live and let live is just not in the Christian vocabulary, it seems. Even after leaving the church, the hellfire and brimstone continues. If there's a Heaven, I'll be there because of the kind of life I lead, not who I sleep with (FYI- being gay is NOT a lifestyle. Please learn this). I'm afraid that, if there's a HELL, those that scream at me from street corners or picket funerals or insist I'll burn simply because of who I love better be sure to dress for warm weather just before they die.
Other than Nafi, No one seems to be answering the question that is the point of this blog in the first place - "What was your own most formative religious experience, if you had one?"
I was a "born again" Christian for most of my life (+35 years) when I started asking questions and reading about the religions of the world.
Jesus was a Jew, plain and simple. Paul launched the marketing campaign to make people believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Catholics added their own flavor, mixing some judaism with Christianity and labeling the Jewish Book the "old testament", implying that the Torah was part of Christianity. It was not and is not - the 10 commandments, Psalms, etc belong to the religion of the Jews.
Yes, I am a "born again" Jew now - one G-d and one belief. No more immaculate conception, no more miracles. Simply a love of G-d and the quest for Tikun Olam - making the world a better place.
Peace to you Nafi and the rest of those of you out there that believe in G-d, rather than in a religion that was created by man.
ive been very lucky over my life that ive had the incredible blessing of having some people enter my life who were on lifelong nonstop spiritual paths that consumed everything for them-
one was a carmelite nun who hadnt been out of the convent for 45 years and i spent over 2 wonderful months with her when her father died and she came out of nairobi for a bit- i swear i never had a red light happen with her in the car- there are so many synchronistic events that if i recall the now i think it may be a great self indulgence and i dont want to bore anyone so much- the other is father lynn who is a gay episcipal priest who started a wellness drop in center for people with aids 20 years ago and whose whole life is dedicated to serving and comforting those who are dying-
their extraordinary selflessness and service oriented lives - being around people like that all the time- it makes one very self critical-
im not sure why so many non-believers are responding to this question- it is making me embarrassed or afraid to express myslef because i
dont ant to be torn apart witrh such delicate revelations about myself(which i have not shared yet) i will watch and see if i can share maybe tomorrow or soon
peace
Regardless of your personal view, it's nice to see folks who are passionate about their faith. At least you've paid attention to an aspect of your life that is easy to overlook.
Me? Born and raised Catholic, still going to Catholic Mass when I'm not lazy. I don't think there is a perfect organized religion for me... I don't fit nice and neatly anywhere. Likewise, I feel like everyone celebrates/recognizes faith differently. It's personal. You may be at one gathering place for a particular service. The person to your right may be feel uplifted and the person to your left may be ready to give up on his/her faith. Maybe "I still haven't found what I'm looking for (U2)" but I believe in the spiritual aspect of my life and will continue to work on it.
My formative religious experience? I was in college and going through A LOT and it was wearing me out... I became less social, my grades were slipping, I wasn't able to eat or sleep very well... you know the deal. I went to church for Easter and really paid attention to the minister (went to a Methodist service). That night, I decided to say some bedtime prayers that I had given up on.
While I was in the middle of the "Our Father" I felt like someone was standing over me, next to my bed. At first I was scared because I didn't have a roommate and thought someone got in my room without me knowing...but I quickly calmed down when I recognized that presence was peaceful --- a peace that had been missing from my life. That night was the first night in a loooooooong time that I was able to sleep through the night, with the lights off. That presence was an unseen reality and because I was praying a Christian prayer when it happened, I accepted it as Jesus.
Whether or not it was Jesus, a spirit, an energy or whatever anyone else wants to call it, something was present and the way that it changed me is that I know that I don't have to see to believe. I have learned as much as I trust what I feel physically, I can also trust what I feel spiritually. Yes, feelings --- happy, sad, angry, etc --- feelings can't see but they still exist.
"Jesus died to pay a debt He didn't owe-my sin debt. He loves us and gave His life for us. He was our substitue-He took our place. He chose to die for all the wrong things we have done. All we have to do is accept Him and what He has done. He gave His very life and blood for us-how can we not give our lives to Him? "
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But Jesus didn't die. He was supposedly resurrected less than 48 hours later and lives on in eternity. Not much of a sacrifice.
I was raised in a devotely Irish Catholic household, but one which also embraced liberalism and free thought, and I never missed a Sunday Mass (or a Holy Day of Obligation) until my mid-20's. I read Aquinas in college, and minored in comparative religion, talked with my Jesuit uncle, and the many priests and nuns (and ex-clergy) who were in the orbit of my family, but I never really had a formative religious experience, despite a Catholic grammar school education and all the other religious opportunities and teaching that were part of my daily life. However, in my public high school, my senior year, I took a Bible as Literature course taught by two wonderful teachers - one a middle aged Jewish woman from Queens, and the other an elderly Baptist woman from North Carolina. Never once did those women discuss there religious beliefs, and it was in no way a religious class, but I can still remember a large football player that was just scrapping by in this honors class being moved to tears discussing the faith of Job, and how that faith was not simple belief but hard work. I remember the book of Esther and how I just loved that practical woman! And I loved the fact that she was still considered "Bible worthy" despite not being particularly "religious". I remember the book of Amos and discussions of Justice. Mostly though, I remember the day that a senior died - suddenly, shockingly - and how the halls were absolutely silent as we went from class to class, and how all I could think of that day was the passage I had read for homework the previous week. "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Praise be the Lord".
`I was raised to be a pretty devout Catholic. I was an alter boy for years, and attended a private Catholic school. After I made my confirmation at age 13 I knew this was an important part of my life.
I decided to get even more serious and learn as much as I could about my faith. So I picked up the bible, and began to read. Cover to cover, I devoured it. Took me a while, but I did it.
It was the most impressive religious experience I can remember and still the most profound thing I have ever done.
Basically, by the time I finished it I was no longer so sure that I believed. The book is, to be polite, nonsense. At 13 I pretty much giggled my way through Revelations, and I had a hard time taking any of the rest of it seriously. There is some really nice stuff in there, but there is also a lot of things that today’s people will just find mean. The god of the OT is every bit the rotten mean spirited jerk, and then in the NT Jesus is a peacenik. Read the sermon on the mount, and try to take it literally, take it as coming from the mouth of god... How much of today’s society would accept it?
In short, it was a profound religious experience because it taught me that much of religion is empty. I remained a catholic for several years, losing interest as time went by. Later I considered myself a christian, and tried to continue my education in the faith. The more I learned, the less impressed I was.
Today, I am an atheist, and I am very happy and content, because I have a better understanding of the world around me. There are moments that I am bitter about the time I wasted when I was young, but I am mostly just happy that I was able to see my way clear of the religious brainwashing that seems to affect so many people.
I was raised in the LDS church. Baptised at 8, I was Mormon all the way until I turned 18 and joined the Army, electing to serve my country rather than go on a mission for the church.
It didn't take me long to find my own path leading away from that faith. While many Mormons are wonderful people who abide by their faith, many others are hypocrites at their worse who preach one thing but do whatever they like. I looked at myself, and the morality I had developed over the years, and realized I was going to become one of those hypocrites if I didn't make a different choice.
So, I left the Latter-Day Saints, opting instead to research other faiths to see if anything was a "better fit." It did not take me long to find Asatru.
A reconstructionist faith, Asatru is the worship of the old gods of Northern Europe, the AEsir. Its name means, literally, "faith in the AEsir," and I felt an immediate connection to the gods and their messages of strong family, friendships, and honor.
For nearly 12 years I have been Asatruar, and happily so. My wife joined my faith about a year after our marriage, feeling the same connection I did, and we are raising our children with our beliefs.
Each of us should look at our own faith and our actions and ask ourselves if we truly espouse the teachings of that religion. You might be surprised at the answer.
Back in the fall of 1999, I obtained an 8th ounce of Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms. I split this dose with my girlfriend at the time simply expecting a happy-go-lucky experience, as I had experienced in the past. This time, however, would be quite different. At first I thought the mushrooms must have been lacking in potency, as we felt almost nothing in the first hour. Having already planned to go to a park, we decided we may as well either way. We arrived just fine and were walking around. But sometime shortly after two hours of having consumed the mushrooms, things changed quite dramatically. We could hardly contain our laughter and had to sit down on the grass. Time began to slow down. The trees started to curl. The grass began to crawl. Everything was alive. We could feel the breeze touching and tickling us. As the sun began to set and it touched the top of the trees, we instantly felt it pulsing through the trees, to the roots, through the grass, through the rocks, through the soil until it was pulsing through us. The hallucinations grew more intense and suddenly we began to experience a oneness with the universe. I closed my eyes and travelled through fractal tunnels. I knew at that moment that I had travelled into another dimension and could see behind the universe. Voices began to buzz inside my head. It became obvious that the mushrooms we had ingested contained divine ancient spirits that were using our bodies as a host to show us wisdom. I began to see a seemingly infinite amount of strings radiating with colors. And inside these strings were images. It was all the possibilities in life playing like a movie in a complex geometrical pattern where everything lead back to its center. This was God. Everything path in life already was, although I still had not experienced it. Everything was connected. There was no true beginning or true end. I realized God's objective in life was to achieve a perfect harmony and balance, that every action lead to a reaction, that I would keep being reborn until I lead a good life and my good actions influenced others so eventually there was an ultimate peace and then time and the universe would simply cease to exist. This experience was my true spiritual awakening and my most meaningful contact with the one true God, devoid of the corruption of false prophets and evil men claiming to hold God's divine word, though using it to justify evil and enabling the disintegration of humanity and righteousness through religions like Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
AMY: "But Jesus didn't die. He was supposedly resurrected less than 48 hours later and lives on in eternity. Not much of a sacrifice."
Getting whipped, nailed to a cross (yes, that's still questionable but it's part of the story) and that whole shebang so that zillions of people who hadn't even been born yet could be "saved"... that's not a sacrifice???
I wish I could say I have had a religious conversion experience. I haven't. It is not because I haven't tried because I have tried many times. Try as I might it simply does not happen for me. There have been times when I have been so desirous of and prayed for something to occur in my life and it has. Those times I wonder if perhaps there was some higher entity listening to my plea. I have hoped that was so but I suspect it was not and that it was merely coincidence. I can look at the earth and the universe and see its wonders but I have not though had a mystical reborn experience. I am an unequivocal believer in science and things provable. I suspect either one has faith or one doesn't. At present I do not. There is nothing I have witnessed so far to prove to me that there is a supreme being with supernatural powers and so many things that seem to point to the fact that there is nothing beyond what we can prove. For the supernatural to exist science and the physical laws of the universe would have to be denied. I cannot buy that. If I were born Catholic I would have been Catholic. If I were born Muslim I would have been Muslim. It happens I was born Jewish. I have an appreciation and love for the Jewish people and Judaism's emphasis on religious debate but I can say with conviction that I am a secular Jew and do not believe in stories or myths. I believe all religion is based on previously-held myths passed down throughout the centuries and morphed into contemporary belief systems. Until something negates my observations I probably will never be a true believer.
"im not sure why so many non-believers are responding to this question-"...victoria
Well, in my case because I think it's an interesting question and I wanted to share something of my own experience...
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"it is making me embarrassed or afraid to express myslef because i dont ant to be torn apart"...victoria
I'm sorry if my sharing of my experience makes you feel "torn apart" Victoria; I just thought maybe I should be able to speak, too.
Why shouldn't non-believers respond to this question? Are our profoundest experiences worthless just because they led us in a different direction than yours? Why is my unbelief so frightening to you? Letting go of my faith was one of the best things I ever did; my life has been so much better and I believe I have become a much better person as a result. You say you are afraid of being "torn apart" if you tell your story, but then you turn around and complain that someone like me would dare to tell some small part of their story.
I'm sorry victoria, and I'm not looking for a fight, but that sounds like hypocrisy to me. I promise to respect your opinions, but it would be nice if you'd show some respect for those of unbelievers like me and stop complaining about our presence here. We're people too.
Regards
A Hermit
interesting that once the sphere surrounding the Sacred is punctured by the Profane it becomes harder and harder to sustain the 'suspension of disbelief' necessary for the whole religious endeavor.
as for my first religious experience i refer you to Meatloaf's 'Paradise by the Dashboard Light'
and i would leave you all with the immortal words of Bart Simpson: "everybody knows the best bands are affiliated with Satan"
I don't know if it was the most formative, but one the most transformating spiritual experiences of my life happened with the birth of our son. At 32-34 weeks, the doctor started getting concerned about slow growth. I was sent to a high risk OB for tests. Over a period of 4 days, the ultrasound went from showing a small baby with everything else OK to almost no amniotic fluid. That with elevated blood pressure convinced the specialist and my regular OB that I was having placental efficiency and they decided to induce me immediately, a few days short of 36 weeks. First I wouldn't agree because I wanted my baby to get bigger in the womb but they convinced me that at that point, the womb was not the best place for him anymore.
When our son was born, I saw my OB's face go completely white. "Look at this" he said as he showed me a huge knot in the umbilical cord."We could have lost your baby at any minute because with his movements he could have tightened up the cord even more until all nutrient and oxygen stopped flowing, or the cord could have snapped and he would have died before you got to the hospital." And then my doctor, who is a non practicing Jew, told me that he felt that there had been a hand on him that made him do the right thing (induce me) for the wrong reason (my placenta was fine). He was as shaken up as I was. For the next 24 hours, I felt bathed in the light and love of the Holy Spirit.
I don't know why God chose to save my son when others were not. I do not think that we deserved it in any way, or were more deserving than others that were not so fortunate. But I do know that God granted us a miracle and when I go through my own walks in the desert, I remember how I felt after our son was born and my faith is rekindled.
I may have been less inclined to see things that way had it not been for my own doctor's words.
To Karen: your doctor took an incredible risk (right thing, wrong reason) and my opinion is that he saw or felt the sign that others may have ignored. You are very blessed.
Here's my story:
I grew up in a very legalistic, Southern Baptist Church. I basically took on the faith of my parents just because that's what you do. I did question though, many of their beliefs. I just couldn't understand how such a loving God could send people to hell and other crazy stuff that I was taught.
When I went to college, I began a journey of making my faith my own. Books by people like Brian McLaren, Anne Lamott and Rob Bell changed my Christian experience forever. As a result, I found freedom, grace and acceptance from a TRUELY loving God who accepts me AS I AM. No more legalism. The God that I now worship is all about love, acceptance and grace. As I understand it now, I am called to extend that same love, grace and acceptance to those around me. It's not an easy journey because there are some people who really piss me off sometimes, especially judgmental, religious people. So I fail alot. But that's OK.
It makes me so sad to hear some of your stories about the church.
I was a lapsed Catholic. One Easter season, my wife and I travelled to Italy and eventually found ourselves in Rome on Eater Sunday. I have a friend who is a secretary to the College of Cardinals and he arranged an audience with Pope John Paul II. Before that audience, my wife and I watched His Holiness from the center of St. Peter's Square. When I met the Pope, I was struck by the man's strength of character, his honesty, humility and his incredible faith. I have since gone back to the church and, although there are many policies with which I disagree, I am convinced in the essential truth of Christianity.
My most significant experience. I had just started to grown my love for the hindu goddess Kali. At that time, i had alternated between attending hare krishna service and service at a local hindu temple. I had not been to the hindu temple for months on end though.
At one point i needed a change of pace from the hare krishna service and again began to attend classes offered at hindu temple.
the temple offers a free food service about midday - referred to as "prasadam". the gathering is in a big auditorium with many tables and seats. at only my second week back at temple - there happened to be a seat available next to someone whose aquaintence i had made a few months prior. We got to talking and ironically, she happened to be from the same area in India where Kali is most worshipped.
Further, this friend advised me of an annual Kali Puja that was being held in Nashville the very next weekend.
This series of events was beyond amazing. I just happened to stop going to hare krishna and re-attend hindu temple, just happened to find a seat next to an old friend, and all of this - exactly in time to hear about and attend the "annual" Kali puja taking place the very next weekend.
I met a true mystic face to face. He had a great sense of humour as well as humility, wisdom and a tremendous presence. While a man like any other man, his closeness to God radiated. Everything seemed vital around him. I am sure the plants probably grew faster.
The second most formative experience was in returning home to a small city at Christmas I met friends and discussed a film, "Sophie's Choice". One of them said and the others agreed that this was not a Christian film, and that they would not see it. It was then or very shortly thereafter that I abandoned Christianity.
Tripping on entheogens in my mid-20's brought me back once again to an awareness of Divinity. What that experience did was demonstrate that the representations of God given through religious traditions are local, flawed and in most cases anthropomorphic. I knew through direct apprehension what it was, and have no word that can frame what I experienced. Suffice it to say that ideas of God are pale and lifeless compared to what is represented through religious forms. This is not to say that religion is useless. It is not. But it is severely limited in its ability to frame the in itself.
When I was 16 a friend and teacher of mine challenged me to read The Book of Mormon from cover to cover. I’d been born a Latter Day Saint, but due to my parents divorcing and eventually leaving the church, I hadn’t been involved with such things for awhile.
As I read the book it caught my mind and my imagination. I read every moment I could. Eating was a chore, sleep was a distraction!
The next time we met I was shown Moroni 10:4, “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true, and….he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
I was asked to pray as Moroni directed, which I though was silly, because I’d always been taught to accept these things. But I did it anyway. So I prayed, explaining that I’d always thought it was true, but that my teacher had asked me to pray about it anyway. Then I asked if it were true.
Within moments it was as if a great light was building in my room, yet the light was not in the room, but it was inside me. I didn’t see a pillar of light, yet it felt like there was one going through the back of my head and filling my soul with a peace, almost like a relief. In my mind’s eye I could almost see my teacher working and struggling and praying on my behalf (he had a young family of his own, yet had spent quite a bit of time one on one with me), and I came to understand that I was having this experience at this time because of the faith and struggles that had been done in my behalf. Then these words formed in my mind: “Now go and do the same for others.”
I was still the same me the next day, yet I felt different. I noticed I was more aware of my words and actions. And it was as if I had this wonderful little secret in my heart, one that I wished (and still wish) everyone to have.
This was only the beginning for me. And it can be the beginning for you too.
As a child I was raised catholic, was taught about god, and to believe in him. When I became an adult and saw some of the injustices and evil in the world, I thought, "Where is God?" But being intelligent and observant, I thought, "OK with the complexity of life, laws, and order in the universe, it leads me to believe there must be a Designer. So there must be a God, who set this in motion, but I see no evidence for his presence in today's world."
Then through a set of circumstances in my life that brought me to me knees, I really sought after God and prayed, "Lord if you are real, please help me. For if you can't do it, nobody can."
The he showed up through a series of very odd coincidences!!! (I know now they were orchestrated by God.) I became Born-Again, and shortly after was "Baptized by the Holy Spirit", where the spirit came upon me, my whole body felt like it was on fire and I was overcome with great joy!!!
From that day until the present I got "Spiritual Eyes", where I know when something is coming from God, Satan, or Man. I have been given the "Spiritual Gift of Discernment" spoken of in 1st Corinthians 12.
My wife, after she became Born-Again was given the "Spiritual Gift of Prophesy" where she sees the Lord in Dream/Visions. He has also spoken through her to me while she has sat up from a deep sleep in a Trance Like State. She does not remember this has happened if spoken through in a Trance, but only remembers if spoken to in a Dream/Vision.
Everything the Lord has told us has come "Exactly True" in things of a personal nature in our lives, and enforces scripture.
When this first started, I though my wife was just having Dreams, and told her not to get all bothered about it. This is until the Lord started speaking to her, and telling her what scriptures for her and I to read. It was EXACT, and the passages complete and never wrong.
The odd thing was, my wife had never owned a bible or ever studied the bible. The knowledge of scripture surpasses anyone that I know, and that would include most Theologians. It is astounding.
Here are a few things the Lord has told me:
1) His time to return (Jesus) is sooner than many believe, but believe it my son.
2) The tsunami of Dec.26, 2004 was a "Warning because many do not believe 'I AM WHO I AM' and have rejected me. It is just the beginning of many such things to come."
3) In Jan, 2005 the Lord told me, "In a few years the oceans are going to start to rise. Not all at once, but gradually. The water will come in further than many would believe possible. It was better to be 'In The Land' than on the coasts."
4) I was not to take any job (I was between jobs at that time) on the West Coast of this country (USA) or the west coast of Florida."
5) The Lord told me, "His real birthday (Jesus) was Oct.15th, or Tishri 15, The Feast of Tabernacles."
God is very real, and knows and sees everything. If you seek him with a pure heart you will find him. It's not about religion, but about relationship. He wants a personal relationship with each of us.
God is bigger than the universe, but yet closer than your breath. He is love, but also can be wrath. If you seek him, you will find him.
May God Bless You,
AJC3
Christmas morning three years ago, my younger and only brother called me from Camp Bonifas - his duty station on the Korean DMZ (demilitarized zone). As an Air Force Mastersergeant with a tour of Korea already under my belt, I understood the harsh and dreary conditions he faced during his year-long tour guarding one of the worlds most dangerous fences.
However, this Christmas morning his voice was even more distant and, well, a bit sad. Both he and I come from an Irish Catholic family, right outside of Boston. Being a "good" Catholic, he decided to go to mass on Christmas morning. When he arrived, he found that he was the only atendee for the Catholic mass. Just he and the Priest, a frazzled looking younger civilian.
The Father introduced himself, and proceeded to inquire about my younger Brother's religious history - when was his last confession, last holy communion, was he baptized and where, etc. A slew of questions.
My Brother answered each one of the Father's stoic queries with a puzzled, yet polite assurance that he was a good Christian and worthy of a simple blessing by the Vatican's representative during this holy morning in this far off land - the Priest saw it differently.
When the Priest learned that my Brother was married to an Episcopalian, with children - two beautiful kids - baptized in the Episcopal church, the holy Father lost his mind.
For over 30 minutes after that, the Priest railed against my shocked and speechless Brother's "unholy" marriage. The venom spewing Priest assured my Brother that his children were NOT Baptized, and he was NOT truly married in the "eyes of the Catholic Church."
The Priest ended his psychotic tirade against my stunned Brother by closing up the chalice set and refusing to offer him either Communion or a blessing.
On a brutal cold morning in a distant, dangerous land, a young soldier becomes the target not of enemy gunfire, but of the words of an idiot.
An idiot charged with teaching and enforcing the word of God, Jesus and his Disciples.
Instead of using the pulpit to preach peace, harmony and understanding, this civilian (hired by the U.S. Army)vomited a rancorous hail of intolerance and petty personal opinions on the head of an innocent and faithful man.
After he explained what had happened, I was livid. I wanted to fly to Korea and wring this Bastards neck - Priest or no Priest.
But, my Brother asked me to let it go, "he's not worth it" he calmly said.
I was stunned. Here I was feeling rage, pure rage, over the pain of a loved one, who was calming me with words of "patience" and "understanding." My Brother was (and is) inspiring - he had met ignorance and ire with grace and poise.
Jesus said, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." And, "You must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
That day, my little Brother reminded me that the words of Christ are worthless unless we practice his wisdom with our actions. Yet, these actions MUST start with the various representatives of ALL factions of within Christendom. Preaching hate is NOT what Christ espoused during his sermon on the mount.
-Thank you.
-MSgt S. Garrett
USAF (retired)
My first experience with "religion" was with a praying mom and dad. By their example I was taught that God was real. My faith sprang from their example, but nevertheless it is my personal experience. I was fortunate enough to be able to share my fears with my parents who would bring me comfort and support through their love and prayers. I continue to commune with my God whom I believe to be revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. Faith is such a personal thing that words are insufficient to convience an unbeliever. Please do not mock me for my belief as I will not mock you for your doubt. You have not experienced what I have and neither have I experienced what has formed your faith. For we all have faith in something even if it is nothing at all.
I am not fond of the word "religion". Religion has been both a blessing and a curse to mankind. True religion does no harm, but only good.
im not sure why so many non-believers are responding to this question- it is making me embarrassed or afraid to express myslef because i
dont want to be torn apart witrh such delicate revelations about myself(which i have not shared yet) i will watch and see if i can share maybe tomorrow or soon
this is my statement-
out of 19 posts on page 1 18 are from atheists
i posted many times on atheists posts very gently and never ever imposed my views on anyone-
that is respect
i responded kindly to a post you yourself made
i was very reticent and never pushed my views
although i was called names and attacked many time s i didnt respond with any rancor
i was happy to see this question because i wanted to share and be shared with
without being ridiculed or mocked
forgive me if you thought i was saying atheists shouldnt speak
i was just alarmed and wanted to feel free to speak ALSO
it would only be looking for a fight if i went to the atheist posts and said that
i dont think there is any hypocrisy because i was very respectful to atheists and felt like i should also have a turn to speak
i really am heartened and interested to hear peoples stories
peace
because atheists have a forum to agree in- it seemed kind of pushy to put down religion on a question that was specifically put to religious
people
respect should be both ways
that post was by victoria addressing hermits post
My most formative religious experience came when I released the notion of achieving a state of personal perfection as a direct result of my own will. I recall feeling profoundly disoriented and nausiated as I formed the realization that nothing I could ever do would be good enough to satisfy my desire for personal perfection and absolute intergrity.
I reassured myself that if I felt this disoriented and nausiated others must have felt this way as well. And if any of them could find their bearings, I could too.
NOTICE THE QUICK RETURN TO SELF RELIANCE.
and the beat goes on.........
Why don't you guys get Ted Haggard to be a panelist? Or how about Jim Bakker? Atheism is enjoying a "Certain Vogue" because religion is dumb. And yes I have intentionally made my post simple for the simpletons.
Eric,
If you believe you are a TRULY 'rational' person, then you should have no trouble believing in God.
Using the supposedly rational, logical scientific method, science tells you that the Universe was born of chance. A roll of dice. Nice.
How is that a MORE rational, more logical, more believable position than FAITH.
Actually a TRUE rational, logical, assesment of physical phenomenon can ONLY lead to the conclusion that the Universe exists NOT by chance.
Eric,
If you believe you are a TRULY 'rational' person, then you should have no trouble believing in God.
Using the supposedly rational, logical scientific method, science tells you that the Universe was born of chance. A roll of dice. Nice.
How is that a MORE rational, more logical, more believable position than FAITH.
Actually a TRUE rational, logical, assesment of physical phenomenon can ONLY lead to the conclusion that the Universe exists NOT by chance.
My experience was basic and has simply deepened and grown as I have studied and read and lived and had experiences. The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Son of God, born of the virgin, Mary, took all mankinds' sin upon His sinless self on the cross and died. He arose in three days and now sits at the right hand of God the Father. At Pentacost, He sent the Comfortor, the Holy Spirit to abide with us. Jesus will return for His church, He will redeem his 144,000 (Jews), He will fight Evil and reign 1000 years on earth. Satan will be released once again to tempt, fight and lose again forever. Isn't the thought of Eternity praising our Creator Heaven? All anyone has to do is ask Jesus to be his Savior, confess his sins, and make that request and decision a lifelong journey. Then read and study the Word every day, make prayer as much as breathing. You'll soon find that being able to open your eyes, move your body, speak, eat, flip a switch and get light, turn a faucet knob and get water....why, there is so much to be thankful about! What joy and wonder to watch a child play. What wouldn't a paraplegic enjoy feeling a mashed finger? The one will soon be kneeling if he loves Jesus, with a brand new body. None of us is ever assured of another minute of life. No choice is a "NO" choice. Is that worth an eternity in hell?
Actually, the science that I believe in simply states that it doesn't know how the Universe began. We're human. There are a lot of things we don't know. Maybe we will someday -- maybe not.
What I question is people's willingness to believe without proof ideas that would seem to contradict the facts before them. Not specifically the existence or nonexistence of God (I'm not sure that scientific inquiry can *ever* answer that one) -- but the various stories offered by the mainstream religions. Essentially everything from the Judeo/Christian story of Genesis, to the Islamic belief in the Jihad. (I've never understood the concept of a "holy war" -- on either side.)
If faith is saying that you *think* that God exists, I have no problem with that. (Right now, my own opinion is that I really don't know.) I question people that say that they *know* that God exists, especially when many of their proofs don't hold water.
If someone says that he or she has had a religious experience and therefore believes in God, I have no basis on which to disagree. But at the same time, they (to be fair) should understand that, not having had any such epiphany, I cannot yet share their faith.
I'm sorry victoria, I don't see atheists putting down religion any more than I see religionists putting down atheism here. Mostly I see people responding to the question, and I don't understand why you think it was specifically for religious people. Are the experiences that shaped my beliefs less worthy of consideration because I am not a believer? I don't think I'm being "pushy" by participating here.
I spent too many years trying desperately to believe in things I just couldn't believe. I did my best to live by faith, but I never learned to believe in myself. Letting go of faith and embracing my humanity set me free from fear, self doubt and confusion. Life is so much better for me now, and I can't understand why you find that threatening, or why stories like mine should be seen as a "put down" of religion.
You have some interesting things to contribute here too, and I know you have been disturbed by some of the insensitive comments in other topics. But the insensitivity comes from all sides, not just atheists, and most of us, believers or not, are trying our best to be honest and open here. Don't let the few jerks who inevitably turn up in forums like this stop you from expressing yourself. I promise I'll stick up for you...;-)
regards
A Hermit
Eric,
I feel for you with your lack of faith. I consider myself a person of great faith. But, there are times when I wonder. But, I still know inside that it is better to have faith than not to have it. Maybe it is because I know that I have been blessed by God for having faith first. After years of having faith in God, heaven and other religious concepts that I believed were true, I was blessed to have some of that faith turn to knowledge. For example, I knew my husband was the right person for me to marry. I cannot explain how I knew, but we both did. We had many "coincidences" surrounding our courtship which also accompanied this knowledge.
You know how they say seeing is believing? I don't believe that when it comes to most religious experiences. You know why? Because when most faithless people are shown a sign, they doubt the sign. You can know that a religious or spiritual experience is true by having faith. In fact, I believe God will not give most people a spiritual experience without faith. That is his pre-requisite. Faith is a test. Just like I did not get my bachelor's degree without passing the tests and doing the pre-requisites of what was asked, it is the same with God. With faith, we earn the blessing of having spiritual experiences. Hope this helps.
As a Catholic, I saw religion as a beaurocracy until the day my father died.. I saw on that day and for days after, the real world concern of the priest, the nun and church members. Not the simple platitudes I expected, but real concern and offers of practical support and ideas to assist me and my family. This drew me closer to the religion of my birth, than I have ever been.
Eric,
I am sorry you struggle so much to believe. It must be very hard on you.
I feel that faith is a big test given by God. Just like in school you must test and study to make the grade, it is the same with faith. I would start out simple by reading the Bible (new testament is easier to understand). And, pray for even the tiniest amount of faith. I hope this helps.
I grew up without formal religion, a handful of midnight masses, a couple church visits with friends after a sleepover. My husband is very steadfast in his Christianity. About 10 years ago I made the decision to recite the sinners prayer out loud. I was all by myself, sitting in my family room. After finishing, I physically felt my blood rushing through my veins, heard a roaring in my ears, my limbs tingled like when recovering from a pressured vein that put them to sleep. I choose to interpret that as the holy spirit entering my soul. I'm still not a great prayer, and still have my doubts about an afterlife, but my experience proved to me there is a higher power there somewhere, listening and answering.
Falling asleep I found myself rising through the roof, over the land, above the earth. As I rose I could "see" that everything is perfect just as it is. Flames of eternity bathed me. Though much less intese, I can still experience some of this via recall. It was a wordless "knowing". I was overcome with tears of joy.
Perhaps it is a test, and I should believe.
But believe in what/whom? Jesus? Mohammed? Buddha? Krishna? Zeus? Zoaraster? The Invisible Pink Unicorn?
I don't mean to offend anyone (for all I know, someone out there may well know The Truth.) I just don't see a way to believe something which my common sense says is so improbable.
I guess a conversation I had with my high school bus driver sums it up. (She was a wonderful example of a Christian who never had a bad word for anyone.) I asked her, as an honest, respectful question, why she believed in Jesus.
She answered right away. "Jesus is the son of God. It says so in the Bible. Ain't you read your Bible?"
"But how do you know the Bible is true?" I asked.
"It's the word of GOD."
"OK, but how do you know it's the word of God?"
"It says so."
Perhaps it is true. As I've said, I'm an agnostic who would like very much to believe -- not an atheist. (Atheism is unprovable, anyway.) But I simply can't bring myself to believe this sort of "logic" any more than I can convince myself that the Moon is made of green cheese.
I've been looking for the answer for many years (and probably will continue to look). I've even tried praying (although I feel somewhat silly doing so) -- usually something along these lines:
"God, if you're out there, I want to believe in You. Please show me how I can believe without being dishonest to You or to myself. If Jesus is 'the Way and the Light,' I would like to accept Him, but I don't see how to bring myself to do so. If you are there (and if it matters to You), please show me how to follow the path You would have me follow. Amen."
I'm still listening. Just like the SETI project, no answer doesn't mean that He's not out there -- just that I can't yet say for sure that He is.
If anyone can help, I will listen with an open mind. Perhaps you know more than I do. But it will take either a religious experience or very good solid logic to convince me.
(If ever I am convinced, however, I would consider it an obligation to explain to others like myself how I came to Believe.)
Eric,
When I was 9, a friend of my mom's sent the missionaries to my home. I am Mormon. You said you are very open-minded. You should have the missionaries come. You do not have to be baptized. You can harass them with questions (they are good sports and want to help you find answers). I have studied many religions/philosophies/ways of life, etc. both in college and in life. I have never found anything more true. Just be patient with yourself and the process.
Conservative Christians supporting war? You can be Christian or you can be a war supporter. You cannot be both. If you read the New Testament with the intent of learning from it, not just to memorize verses, this realization is inescapable. Christians who act like they only know the Old Testament are merely pretenders who wrap themselves in the bible much the way segregationists wrap themselves in the flag. It is done solely to hide the lie within.
For Eric, Gail and others- I thought this was an interesting discussion on faith:
My own most formative religious experience happened in 1973 when I was a graduate student at a Christian university. The Senior Pastor of the campus church had a sermon series entitled, "The Kingdom of Grace." In that series of sermons I learned among many other things about the grace that Jesus so freely offers us, Jesus' robe of righteousness that covers our sins, justification by faith, and the gift of the unmerited mercy of Jesus toward us. Even though I was raised in a very spiritually strong home by a mother and father who loved me unconditionally, it was that sermon series when I was in my early twenties that formed the basis for what has been an adult life filled with peace and joy and hope, and a relationship with Jesus that has supplied everything I have needed through all that has happened in my life. I often tell people that even if there was not a heaven and eternity to look forward to (but I am certain there is), knowing Jesus and His love for me in this life is sufficient. I probably wouldn't have felt this way if I had not learned that there is a kingdom of grace, not based on what I do or don't do , but on what Jesus has done and is doing for me, and accepting Him as my Savior and having a close personal relationship with Him. Through the years, I have witnessed a startling difference between my patients who are upheld by their spiritual beliefs in times of tragedy or when facing death and those who have no belief to sustain them and every time I witness that difference, I know in my heart that faith and hope are vastly better than unbelief and despair.
To those of you who have written before me in this blog and do not believe, I would invite you to study these aspects of what Jesus has to offer to you: mercy, grace, the propitiation, justification, a robe of righteousness to cover whatever in your life is not pure, sanctification and the promise of an eternal life where sin no longer has dominion over you.
Debbie,
The problem with faith being a test given by God is that your faith in God's expectations are nothing more than a projection of your own personal beliefs. And your faith in what happens after death is also a projection of your own personal beliefs.
As for using the Bible as a source of faith, I personally have a serious problem with it. I'm of Celtic and Germanic ethnicity. The Old Testament was written by Jews who were subjugated by the Romans. The Romans took their religion and created the New Testament, yet continued to subjugate and oppress my peoples. My people had their own gods and creation stories and moral codes, but were forced to adopt foreign beliefs from a truly foul and disgusting and unjust and unrighteous people. What Jesus taught about God was a serious departure from what was written in the New Testament. First we have a God that punishes the children for the inequity of the parents. Then we have a God who is merciful and forgiving. And yet some of the rules in the New Testament were created by Paul and Peter, who after the death of Jesus departed significantly from the teachings of Jesus.
I have no faith that a just and righteous God would have delivered his message to my people in such an unjust and unrighteous way. He's supposed to love me, not hate me.
Besides, I don't even see why the Bible should be a source of faith in the first place. I don't need it to know how to do what is good and right. I only need my heart. Would God want me to enter the Kingdom of Heaven if I kept having to refer to the Bible to figure out how to act accordingly?
The Bible itself is a test. If you spend your life trying to determine how to best follow what is written in the Bible and choosing between one interpretation or teaching or chapter over another, if you follow the Bible instead of your heart, you cannot be saved.
Yes, if true, we would do well to follow Jesus.
But how can we know that Jesus truly offers us this? How can we know that everything the Bible says is true? Anyone can write a book and make all kinds of prophecies. The stories in the Bible would be easy enough to believe for someone in the Middle Ages, but they require more and more stretches of logic (or appeals to miracles) to be believable today.
For example, the following seem to me to require direct (miraculous) intervention by God/Jesus in order to happen:
* Noah's Ark
* A "young" Earth, less than 10,000 years old
* The Star of Bethlehem
* Jesus walking on water
* Jesus' resurrection
* The loaves-and-fishes miracle
* etc...
Perhaps God did perform miracles, and these events truly did happen exactly as the Bible would have us believe. If so, then, why does the evidence before us make it so difficult for us to believe that version of events? Wouldn't the loving God of the New Testament want us to believe -- and make it easier to believe?
I've been looking for an explanation of how I can believe that doesn't fit the following styles (which I see as theological cop-outs):
* "You must just accept it on faith."
(The same could be said for any faith. How should I know which to choose?)
* "You should believe because Jesus is so wonderful."
(Yes, if he is as the Bible says, then he is indeed wonderful and worthy of our love. But I could use the same logic to "prove" that I'm a millionaire. It would be so nice, therefore it must be true.)
* "You should believe in God because the Bible is the Word of God."
(This would require believing that the Bible is true. Perhaps it is, but I can't simply believe that for no reason.)
* "It is apparent that God exists; how else can you explain all of Creation?"
(Science can't yet explain all of Creation, but just because I don't know the answer doesn't mean that you do. Evolution seems to me to very adequately and completely explain the story of life from its origin to the present. There's still the very big question of where the Universe came from -- but I'm OK with admitting that I don't know the answer to that.)
* "You should believe because it feels right."
(Sorry, to me, it feels wrong. It requires a definite effort on my part to keep an open mind -- yet I must, because to close my mind to the possibility would not only risk alienating myself from God, should He exist -- but would be intellectually dishonest. I truly do not know the answer, and to claim to be an atheist would be a lie.)
* "You are a sinner and need a Savior."
(Yes, I make many mistakes. I'm definitely imperfect. We all are, to my knowledge. If Jesus can absolve us of this, then wonderful. But I am unable to blindly believe, just because I want it to be true.)
I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You, too, can be touched by him here:
We figure that, if all of the masses of people can actually believe in an invisible man, we are just as righteous believing in something equally ridiculous.
So there.
Enjoy!
- pasta man
This is about a different kind of religious or spiritual experience.
Many years ago, while living in Monterey, CA, I had a day off from work and decided to catch up with some of the pending yard work that needed doing. First, though, I went to town to get a cup of coffee, and, to get the paper and mail.
Al’s Good Eats was a little diner, maybe three tables and five or six counter seats. Al was a WWII veteran who came home from the war and opened his own place. He was the only employee, but he was a Union member.
Al had a surly manner about him, but he enjoyed cooking breakfast and lunch, and the banter with his customers. He had many friends and was quite the dry humor comedian. He served strong coffee for ten cents per cup, with two refills.
Not just any old cup, but those little tan ceramic mug things that weigh about a pound each. The kind that is difficult to get your finger through the hole.
After the coffee, I headed to the post office in Monterey, to pick up the mail and get
a paper from the newspaper rack outside the post office.
I took the most direct route home, going up Jefferson Street and turning right, onto Clay Street. I stopped at West Franklin, and waited for the downhill traffic to clear. Most of Franklin Street was a hill going from level ground in the downtown area at the street called Calle Principal, up the hill to the Defense Language Institute, which is part of The Presidio of Monterey. We lived on W. Franklin Street, about half way up the hill.
At the stop sign, I watched as maybe 15 or 20 cars headed down the hill. As I waited for them to pass so I could turn right, go three houses and park in front of our house, a cold breeze came into the car.
That was a little strange, because it was a warm morning and there was no breeze or wind blowing. Outside it might have been 60 degrees and inside the car, it felt like it was 30.
For some reason “it felt like” there was “a connection” to the house on the corner, where Mrs. Carmody lived.
Mrs. Carmody lived by herself and was somewhat of a recluse. She seldom left the house, and had all of her groceries delivered by Troia’s Market, a nearby, small, family–owned grocery store.
When the traffic cleared, I turned right and glanced at her house as I passed it. I could not see anything wrong, so I parked in front of our house. Then, I went inside to change my clothes to work in the yard.
As I was changing my pants, a freezing cold surrounded me where I was standing in our bedroom. It was only for a few seconds, but I exhaled my breath and could see my breath in the cold air. That felt really weird, and again, “I had the feeling” that “it had something to do with” Mrs. Carmody’s house.
I finished dressing, went outside and walked up to Mrs. Carmody’s house. At the time, I was a volunteer firefighter with Pacific Grove Fire Department, and had concern about a fire or something like that.
I checked over the side fence at the front of the house, and could not see anything out of the ordinary, just weeds. I walked to the side of the house on Clay Street, and looked over that fence and could not see any problem. It was the same when I checked the garage. I could not see any smoke, or hear anything unusual.
So, I went to the front of the house and stood on the sidewalk. I carefully looked at the front of the house, and again I could not see anything wrong, though everything was a mess. The rollup blinds and sheers were moldy, and rotting, and her yard was a jumble of weeds, yellowing newspapers, and other trash blown in on the wind over time.
I stared at the front door, and asked the question out loud, “OK, why I am I here?”
Instantly, the freezing chill returned and surrounded me, and a voice spoke, “Something is wrong, call the police.” It was not just any voice, but a very professional sounding, announcer’s type of voice. Again, it said, “Something is wrong, call the police.” It repeated this several times and trailed off to nothing.
All the time that freezing chill was present. As soon as the voice stopped, the chill left. I was both frightened, and stunned, by the chill and voice.
I turned around and looked across the street. I carefully looked to my left and to my right. I was searching for some sign, wondering if Alan Funt had his “Candid Camera” crew out in the neighborhood, to film a prank. I could not see anything out of the ordinary.
I went back to our house. As soon as my wife looked at me, she said, “What’s wrong? You look like you’ve seen a ghost!” I let her know that I just might have heard from one, and told her what happened. My wife is very practical, and suggested that I had two choices. Either you make the call, or you do not make the call.
I went to the phone and thought about it for a moment. How does one call the police and tell them that one just heard a voice say to call the police. One does not do that, without risk of being locked up for mental observation. I opened the phone book and found the phone number for “police officer needed, non–emergency.” I thought, and thought about what I should do.
The very split second that I “decided not to make the call,” the freezing chill came back, only it was much colder and stronger this time. It gave me some serious goose bumps and the shakes.
That was very scary, but interesting at the same time. Somehow, the “freezing chill” was reading my thoughts!! It was almost like giving me a kick in the butt to make the call.
It was about 10:45 AM, when I punched in the phone numbers. It rang twice. A woman’s voice spoke, “9–1–1, do you have an emergency to report?”
“No, I thought I was calling the police officer needed, non–emergency number,” I said.
“Hmmm. Oh, yes, you are using the correct line. Those calls come into the dispatch center. Why do you need a police officer?”
“I think there’s something wrong with the lady on the corner.”
“Well, Mr. Clark, what makes you think "something is wrong" with the lady on the corner?”
Note – at that time, the Monterey County Dispatch Center had phone numbers connected with street addresses and occupants.
“I don’t know for sure, I just "have a feeling" that something is wrong.”
“Mr. Clark, we cannot dispatch officers just because you have a 'feeling' that something might be wrong.”
I could hear the lady snapping her fingers, to get the attention of others at her work area, followed by at least two other people lifting headsets to listen in on the conversation.
“Mr. Clark, can you describe this feeling you are having?”
“No, I can’t, other than to say that I have a very strong feeling that something is wrong with the lady in the house on the corner.”
“Again, Mr. Clark, we cannot send out officers because someone has a feeling about something.”
Then, out of my mouth, as if I was not saying it but someone else was saying it through me, came these words: “Um, there’s several days of newspapers out front.”
“Oh, well, that might make a difference,” she said.
Again, I spoke as if someone was speaking through me. It was a term I was familiar with, but I was not thinking about it. It is the term used by police and fire departments to go see if someone is ok. I heard my voice say, “Would you mind doing a welfare check?”
That phrase changed the whole demeanor of the conversation.
“Oh, sure, we can do a welfare check.”
I told her thanks and hung up the phone. I immediately walked outside and there already was a police car in front of Mrs. Carmody’s house. I knew one of the officers as ‘Smitty’ from meeting him when I managed the La Casa Bodega Deli in Monterey. That business site had some serious poltergeist and ghost activity issues, some of which received publicity in local and national papers.
Smitty approached me and said, “Gary, so, you "have a feeling" that something is wrong?”
I nodded yes, and he told me that he and the rookie officer had checked out the place but could not find anything wrong. I let him know I had done the same thing, and that the problem was on the inside.
As Smitty was taking to me, Sgt. Solicito arrived. He got out of his car and came over to us. Sgt. Solicito was very fit, tanned, and had shiny dark hair, and almost perfect, white, teeth, like a police officer one would see on TV or in a movie.
“Gary, so you "have a feeling" that something is wrong, eh?” He emphasized feeling.
I said, “Yes, I do.”
As he put his hand on my shoulder and walked us a short distance away from the other two officers, Sgt, Solicito, said, “Well, you have to tell me about it.”
“I can’t Sarge. If I told you what happened to me, you’d probably be sending me up to “Garden Pavilion” for 48 hours of observation.”
“Oh, one of those things, huh?” (He was very familiar with the ghost stuff at the deli.)
I nodded yes, and said, “In spades,” to emphasize the seriousness of the matter.
“Well, Gary, we can’t just bust into someone’s house, without an obvious concern.”
Again, I could hear a voice speaking out of me, “The mail carrier says she always gets her mail. If there’s any mail in the box, it means something is wrong.”
Sgt. Solicito looked at me, said that sounded reasonable to him, and decided to check Mrs. Carmody’s mailbox. When he lifted the flap on the old–timey mailbox, he could see there was mail inside.
As he picked up the mail he said, ”Hmm, looks like about three or four days of mail here to me. Go ahead and break in,” he told the rookie and Smitty.
Mrs. Carmody’s front door was about 18 individual small panes of glass in wood frames. The rookie used his flashlight to break one of the glass panes closest to the lock, and then reached inside to unlock the door.
The four of us stood on the porch, aware of the dank foul odor coming from the house. It is an odor of dust, newspapers, and mold, that police and firefighters commonly find when older people live on their own without any household assistance. As the rookie opened the door, I could see trails through mounds of clutter.
Sgt. Solicito asked me to stay on the porch, and not enter the house. From the open doorway, I noticed a trail leading through the little dining area to the left of the front door, and leading into the kitchen. There were large grocery bags, used as garbage bags, stacked two and three high all over the floor in the dining room and kitchen, and on the sink drain area in the kitchen.
To the right of the front door, there were newspapers, magazine, and unopened mail anywhere from about a foot high to maybe three feet high. There was a trail to the fireplace, and to the back bedroom and bathroom. I noticed something to my left, and realized there had to be at least a zillion ants crawling all over the bags of garbage in both rooms. That, and the bad odor, made me go to the sidewalk to wait, instead of waiting on the porch.
As I was leaving the porch, I heard someone shout, “Jesus Christ!” followed by a loud thump, and then silence.
A few moments after I got to the sidewalk, I heard a siren. Within moments, paramedics from the Monterey Fire Department arrived and went into the house. Within a few minutes, another siren, and an ambulance arrived and those two went inside the house. All of them were inside for about 15 minutes. Meanwhile, a crowd of people, other neighbors and onlookers, collected on the sidewalk hoping to find out what was happening.
I watched as they brought out Mrs. Carmody. Her face was discolored, and her fingertips were purple. She looked dead, but she was alive!
Sgt. Solicito was standing in the doorway, elbows out, hands on his gun belt, looking at me. He walked over to me, put his hand on my shoulder again, and said, “We have to talk. Gary, you have got to tell me what happened!”
“Well Sarge, it’s like this. You will have to give me your word that if I tell you what happened, you will not do or say anything about it, and keep it confidential.”
He agreed, so I told him what happened. He just shook his head, and said, “Wow!”
Then, he told me what happened inside the house! When they began searching for Mrs. Carmody, they found her in a seated position, on the floor, leaning against an overstuffed chair, with her head slumped toward her chest.
She was covered with ants!
From head to toe, the ants were crawling all over her. The police had trouble seeing skin because of the ants. When the rookie reached down to feel for a pulse, he learned that she still was alive!
That is when he yelled and jumped back. When the fire department arrived, they used sterile water to rinse off the ants, and it took some doing.
Sgt. Solicito thanked me for having the courage to make the call, and said he realized how difficult it must have been to do that.
Mrs. Carmody lived until about 6:20 the next morning when she died. Later that day, another police officer I knew, ‘Dave’ said, “Hey, Gary, I know you are not crazy! I’ve seen ghosts in my house. Your call made quite a sensation at the department. Let me tell you what happened.”
Dave went on to say that, the doctor’s at the hospital said Mrs. Carmody had apparently experienced a pulmonary embolism, which acted like a short circuit, and she dropped into a sitting position, and had not moved for three or four days.
Dave said, “It really freaked out the staff at the hospital when she came in, because there was a steady stream of ants coming out of her nostrils, ears and mouth. The ants probably figured she was just another piece of garbage, and had been eating at the soft tissue areas in the mouth, nose, ears, and eyes.
The ants were eating her alive! The coroner said she had so many ant bites it was not possible to count them!”
At the time, my wife and I knew Sylvia Browne, the psychic, and I thought I would call to ask her about my experience.
So later that day, I called to speak with Sylvia. She was with a client, so her then husband Dal answered the phone. He had psychic abilities too.
Dal told me to think about how many cars passed by that site, and how many other people might have received a similar message, but did not act on it. “By calling the police, you afforded her the dignity of dying in a hospital bed, instead of ending up like a moldering lump on the floor to be discovered only God would know when.
More than likely, it was her guardian angel communicating with you, in a manner that was sure to get your attention, and, it worked!”
Though some people might say my experience was the "work of the devil" I prefer to think of it as a very significant religious and spiritual experience - because it had a beneficial outcome.
Hermit because the question is formative religious
experience- since atheists arent religious- how could they describe religious experience except in a negative context?- thats why i thought it was addressed to religious people-
i dont mind insensitivity but there was some malice and you should never think its directed at you- its not directed at anyone
i hope youre clear on my motives now
everything for me is reduced to intentions-
I have suspicions for the good intentions of people
when this thread wears a little- ill share some of my strong reasons for my faith-
ERIC i started to talk a bit about my own expreience on the previous page-
for maybe 2 years i prayed this prayer with all of the despair and longing that was in me-
i asked god to lead me to worship him the way he wanted me to - not the way that i was comfortable with.
that was all- i put it on my fridge and focused on it-
because i was a practicing christian that is what i was comfortable with- but i thought i could not put conditions on it maybe god had something else in mind- which it seems he or she did-
i am a muslim now- and the beautiful part of it is- that Jesus(ata) is next to Muhammad(pbuh)
the most respected prophet of god- so why not hear the last word that god spoke through his prophets with?
you might get different answer or have a different experience-
im just relating a real concrete experience that i had-
later i will share what that experience is.
peace and you are very honest in your question and i appreciate the humility you show
it is a beautiful thing
also just as a side- i have found like a science that i am always most confused before my greatest moments of clarity in my life- again- maybe its only my expreience i can
only speak for myself
peace
Science vs. faith. Do black holes exist? Prove it! Einstein theorized their existence but they couldn't scientifically be proven until after his death. Was he right even though he never witnessed the scientific proof? Easy for us to judge now because we now know that his theory or "faith" based upon his beliefs and conclusions was correct. Atheism = skepticism. No judgment passed, it's just a fact.
I was never agnostic but I decided instead to embrace a nobler notion of existentialism. I thought of our lives as a flower; a bud that blooms into beauty and is eventually lost forever. It's what I knew, what I could prove and what I was comfortable with because with this belief I was in control of my life and justified to make it whatever I wanted it to be.
Through the course of my career I crossed paths multiple times with a man that I learned to a greater extent had amazing connections to my past through shared acquaintances. One eventually became his bride; others were clients of mine that he shared a special ministry for men in our industry that sought a personal relationship with Jesus. I had always viewed Born Again Christians as desperate people that lived in disillusion to help them feel redeemed for poor life choices. I thought, “they obviously lacked the personal strength to accept the realities and challenges in life." Not sure if my friend and mentor was "one of those" I maintained a sense of caution that he would try to convert me when I least expected it; but at the same time admired his sense of peace, the grace he extended everyone he encountered and the foundation of integrity he maintained. He was well respected as a businessman, a humanitarian, a father, a husband, a friend and to me a true mentor and role model.
I eventually went to work for him and not long after he suffered a cardiac arrest. Sudden, unexpected and to anyone without faith, tragic.
His wake was on 6/6/06. This may be trivial but I mention it because it will have meaning to some who are reading. Not much more than a quarter past midnight that morning I found myself sitting outside, thinking, and mourning his loss. My loss actually. Seeking reconciliation, for the first time in my life I started to pray. I knew he was a man of faith and decided to speak to him through prayer.
So I did. It was a conversation with him that turned into one with God. I asked for understand of the peaceful force my friend had carried with him. Just in doing this I felt a gradual release of sadness for myself replaced with joy for my friend that had passed on. I felt better. Of course talking about problems usually makes all of us feel better. Didn't matter to me at the moment. I was alone and there wasn't anyone around to judge me. So I continued to pray and converse... yes I was mourning his loss.
My lips parted and my mouth opened but was completely bemused about what I had just heard myself say out loud. "Did I really just say that?" Without any premeditation I declared out loud Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I know what some of you are thinking right now and I thought the same.
I stopped, laughed, and shrugged when in the sky, right in front of my eyes appeared a ball of light that started as a spec and grew into a "buzzing" ball of energy. It hung in the sky motionless without a sound then disappeared. My thoughts; no sound: not a plane, not moving: not a shooting star, this doesn't happen: it's a UFO!
Then I got it. I smiled. I felt an embrace and then total peace. I have never been the same since, never been happier in my life, and pray for all who refuse to believe will one day realize that we are not in control and we don't live for ourselves. There is one God our Father and his son Jesus Christ is his gift to mankind to embrace and embody.
Believe what you will. Faith should never be imposed and can only be received if you ask for it. If you don't want to believe you never will. That is a fact.
Never heard Nichiren Buddhism or "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo"?
I have been practicing this particular Buddhism since '79.
Nichiren (13th Century Japanese Buddhist) says that "Both Heaven and Hell exist in our mortal body".
It means that when we are bound to the world of rage and suffering, we are in Hell. When we are experiencing the joy and happiness we are in Heaven.
Our spiritual world/experiences can be categorized in 10 different states.
From the lowest, Hell, Hunger, Anger, Animality, Humanity (Serene), Rapture, Learning, Realization, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood. And the two highest life conditions, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood are the forms of compassion.
People are normally going through the 6 lower states all day, by instantly changing from one to another with the influences from their ever changing environment. And because of that, they tend to blame everything on the environment (circumstances and/or other people) and never try to take responsibility.
Anyhow, we Nichiren Buddhists believe in the infinite potential in ourselves (it's not easy, though) and also believe in the change in one person can ultimately change the whole wide world into the better place.
I have so many spiritual and physical experiences in over 27 years of practicing this Buddhism through chanting "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo", I'm totally happy with this practice.
Never heard Nichiren Buddhism or "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo"?
I have been practicing this particular Buddhism since '79.
Nichiren (13th Century Japanese Buddhist) says that "Both Heaven and Hell exist in our mortal body".
It means that when we are bound to the world of rage and suffering, we are in Hell. When we are experiencing the joy and happiness we are in Heaven.
Our spiritual world/experiences can be categorized in 10 different states.
From the lowest, Hell, Hunger, Anger, Animality, Humanity (Serene), Rapture, Learning, Realization, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood. And the two highest life conditions, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood are the forms of compassion.
People are normally going through the 6 lower states all day, by instantly changing from one to another with the influences from their ever changing environment. And because of that, they tend to blame everything on the environment (circumstances and/or other people) and never try to take responsibility.
Anyhow, we Nichiren Buddhists believe in the infinite potential in ourselves (it's not easy, though) and also believe in the change in one person can ultimately change the whole wide world into the better place.
I have so many spiritual and physical experiences in over 27 years of practicing this Buddhism through chanting "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo", I'm totally happy with this practice.
i know there's a god.at my sister's death,that very second,a sound like a sea of small bell's rang in a way i'll never forget.i took it as a wellcome to heaven.my mother,stepfather,and i all heard the bell's.my sister never walked,had water on the brain.and had a great faith in god.
I'd rather give you the religious experience of a friend of mine who has passed on.
Sitting at the age of 6 or 7 in a Southern Baptist Church in North Georgia he suddenly had this revelation: "These people are crazy."
It has taken me much longer to arrive at the same conclusion.
But recently I did have a revelation of my own: Jon Meacham is a fool.
GOD OF THE DAY:
NYAME
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ashanti people of Ghana in West Africa believed in a supreme being called Nyame, whose sons were lesser gods. Each son served a different purpose: one (Anansi) was a rainmaker, another the sunshine (etc.) Worship of Nyame was the exclusive preserve of the king through his priests; lesser people worshiped her sons.
BONUS GOD:
HAUMIA-TIKETIKE
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Haumia-tiketike is the deity associated with wild foods such as aruhe or bracken fern
In Māori mythology, Haumia-tiketike is the god of wild or uncultivated foods. Haumia was a son of Rangi and Papa, and agreed to the forced separation of his parents. Because of this he was subjected to the fury of his brother Tāwhirimātea, god of winds and storms, who would have killed him if their mother had not hidden him in her body, that is, in the ground. While he escaped from Tāwhirimātea, he was later discovered by Tū, god of war (here representing humankind, who saw Haumia's hair sticking up out of the earth. Haumia contrasts with his brother Rongo, the god of the kūmara and all cultivated plants
Haumia is particularly associated with fernroot or aruhe, the starchy rhizome of the bracken fern Pteridium esculentum, which formed a major element of the Māori diet in former times. Food-quality rhizomes were only obtained from bracken growing in deep, moderately fertile soils. Bracken became abundant after the arrival of Māori. Aruhe was dug in early summer and dried for use in the winter. Although it was not liked as much as kūmara, it was appreciated for its ready availability and the ease with which it could be stored.
Both of these gods make perfect sense to me. Where do I send my money?
I remember when Jerry Falwell got my attention during the 1980 Presidential race. My local library had a copy of his book "Listen America," whose first sentence describes how the Puritans sailed the Mayflower to Jamestown in 1607, confusing three distinct groups of colonists.
I decided his views weren't as American as he liked to make them sound.
My most formative religious experience happened after I was on my own in college and away from my parents. I was raised up in a non denominational religious organization and by the time the end of high school approached I was already beginning to go my own way. This came to pass in college when I told my parents that I no longer wanted to be involved with the organization. While they were initially upset with that decision I knew it was the best.
For a couple of years after I decided that I didn't need religion at all; there was something, in my mind at that time, terribly wrong with organized religion and people telling you HOW you should worship God and WHAT God's purpose is for you. It was so ordinary and didn't speak to me. After a few deeply moving, emotional personal experiences I encountered during college, I realized that on the flip side of things that spirituality is very important for me. I would not push this idea onto others, but in my world it's something that I have found to be a necessity.
At the time Kabbalah was in the news as the popular celebrity religion of the day (now it's Scientology I guess) and I decided to look into it and see what the hype was about. What I found is that the watered down version of Kabbalah discussed among celebrities and in the media was nothing compared to the rich teachings in the text of the Zohar. Furthermore, these readings kept pointing me toward Judaism. For a whole year and I half I read intensely about Judaism and even considered conversion but initially was too afraid to approach a rabbi. Finally, this year, I made the decision to go ahead and really seek out Judaism as I have found it to be richly spiritual in all of the ways I desire. Currently I am taking a course on Judaism and in constant contact with a rabbi, attending weekly Shabbat services, and looking forward to my full conversion into a Jew. The road has been long to get to this point, but truly rewarding and I'm excited to see what the future holds.
"I still know inside that it is better to have faith than not to have it."
That may be true for you , Debbie, and I'm happy for you if it is.
My own experience has been otherwise; I am much happier without faith than I ever was with it. Please don't feel sorry for those of who don't believe as you do. Some of us really are much better now that we have left our faith behind.
Regards
A Hermit
To Eric -
You say,"I would very much like to believe in the Bible. I just cannot honestly bring myself to swallow it without some sort of proof."
Christian and Jewish Archeologists have been looking for proof fruitlessly for centuries. Below is an article I heard about on this forum and checked out. It's from the NY Times 4 years ago. Amazing how slow the word is getting out. Even the non-religious Jews I've talked to about it don't believe it. Here's how it starts:
New York Times, March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds, By MICHAEL MASSING
"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now."
Full article available at:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm (Free link)
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 (paid link)
It was a simple event: it was when I started to
Simply accept myself.
Then everything just became clearer. Oh it's easy to say: "I accept and am myself". But removing all the layers of culture and other peoples desires can be difficult. Which is why so many different religions and systems have evolved over the years to help people do just that: learn how to accept themselves.
Heh I even wrote a Personal Tao /
http://www.personaltao.com/
to just help people be themselves. Its so simple and yet so many people resist their own nature.
peace in your path
If religion is the opiot of the masses, its failing. I am religious myself, and I see more and more failings of those who are supposed to look and care for the Lord's sheep. But is that the Lord's fault
My first formal experience came when I was about 5. I looked into a baptismal font for the first time, and I totally got it. You went down to come back up anew. And I believed and have never gone back. But I think its less formal than that. It has to be. I believe the Lord is real, and tangible, as was once in a flesh and bone tabernacle. I know that he still hears and gives advice. I just don't think you have to "see" to believe. Beleive what you want, but know when that doesn't work, there might just be someone above you, you knew you first, and loves you most!
It is so sad to see how many people refuse to believe and call themselves non-believers. Like some have said you only believe if you want to believe. You don’t believe because you don’t want to believe. The reasons and excuses are many, but the fact is, non-believers choose and make themselves refuse to believe. They think they are so smart and have figured out a good reason for denying God. It is so sad, that so many people stubbornly refuse to accept the real truth. It will be sadder, when they find out how wrong they were. Whether they believe or not they will still stand before God on that last day and wonder how they could have been so stubborn when they had the chance to believe.
I know that we all have individual faiths and our belief is based on our individual experiences with God. God reaches out to all of us individually, in wonderful ways. If we believe, we will see it. He gives us a choice and if you choose to close your eyes, you will never know the truth.
God did something for me that was so profound and so beautiful that I am His for the rest of my life and forever. I wear a good sized cross all the time, because I belong to God for what He did for me. If God will do what He did for me for just anybody then I am His forever.
I have always believed. I was raised Methodist and later joined Lutheran after I got married (divorced now). I taught Sunday School for 17 years in the Lutheran Church, but I didn’t know when I was teaching that God would do such a wonderful thing for me during that time. God answered a prayer for me in such a wonderful way that I can’t really put it into words but I will try. It was a surprise for me that I will be able to share with people forever even in Heaven.
I got a telephone call on a Saturday in May of 2000. I thought about that call and what it meant to me, went to work Monday, and sent an Email to “Everybody” telling them about the phone call and that I had gotten a “Surprise from God”, because of the phone call. That Friday night I was home and wondered how I said in the Email that the Surprise was from God – so I went to get my copy of the Email and re-read it. It was when I was reading my own Email that I remembered something that happened in Viet Nam that I hadn’t remembered for 30 years. And that a prayer was answered and it was a “Surprise from God” for real.
I will tell you what I remembered and then I will tell you what the phone call was that I wrote the Email about. I had taken pictures of a Bob Hope Show in 1969 when he was in Viet Nam with Neal Armstrong just after Neal Armstrong walked on the moon. I made so much money selling the pictures during the year that I extended in Viet Nam for another year to do it again. The second year I decided that Bob Hope might like to see the pictures I had taken the year before, because I had close ups taken with a telephoto lens, of Neal Armstrong with Bob Hope. I worked in the Marine Corps Air Wing and the night before the show, I went up to a briefing room to put the album together for Bob Hope for the next day.
I was putting the album together when suddenly I felt really stupid. Bob Hope was a Movie Star and had thousands of pictures of himself he wasn’t going to look at ones I took. He was just going to throw it away with out even looking at it, and it was a waste of time. I stopped putting the pictures in the album and began pacing around and around the room for 4 hours apologizing to God for being so stupid. After the first hour I decided that Bob Hope would look at the album one time before he threw it away because he would remember that he had Neal Armstrong that year. I took me the next 2 hours to accept the fact that it was a stupid idea and he would just throw it away. The next 30 minutes was, did I really believe in God and did He care about silly things like this. I believed He did. The last 30 minutes was about how Bob Hope would throw it away. I didn’t think he should just “toss” it in the trash can, because it was a gift from a serviceman. I used the example of someone walking down the hall with trash in their hand and happening to go by a trash can – it just gets tossed in as they walk by.
I was down on my knees asking God to be there when Bob Hope threw my album away to see that it didn’t get tossed. He could drop it or throw it in the trash can, but not the “toss”. I had to give it to him because I had the pictures and just because he was going to throw it away was beside the point. I suddenly felt my whole body begin to change and I could feel every cell in my body. Then my whole body literally felt the word “DONE”, then I felt my body go back to normal. I jumped up and finished putting the album together, wondering about how I knew now that you could pray and get answers from God.
The next day I was introduced to Bob Hope back stage and gave him the album. I remembered about that, but I never remembered the night I put the album together or the prayer about how Bob Hope would throw it away for 30 years until that Friday night when I read my own Email about the phone call Saturday and getting a Surprise from God.
I had put my name and address in the back of the album and the phone call had been from the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. That album is in a permanent public display (the Bob Hope Exhibit) “that will be there as long as the Library of Congress building is standing”. For a prayer about how I thought that Bob Hope shouldn’t “toss” the album, to it’s in a Museum, in DC, in a permanent display is a prayer answered to the extreme. And what a Surprise, and what a God we have.
If God will do things like that for people we have wonderful things ahead for eternity. I am His and I wear my cross all the time. I’m so glad I believe and I feel sorry for those who don’t. They don’t know what they are missing.
Bill in Centreville, VA
"If God will do things like that for people we have wonderful things ahead for eternity"
So, Bill, a celebrity keeping an album you made for him is a surprise from God promising a wonderful eternity?
God is must be just as star-struck as you are.
Amazing.
Archaeological and historical study fairly clearly shows that the Bible is not believable.
"If God will do things like that for people we have wonderful things ahead for eternity"
So, Bill, a celebrity keeping an album you made for him is a "surprise from God" promising a wonderful eternity?
God is must be just as star-struck as you are.
Amazing.
Answer:
The day I realized that NO HUMAN can speak for God, has any personal knowledge of God or can identify God.
What was my own most formative religious experience, if I had one?
My most formative religious experience was the experience I had one night under the influence of LSD.
First some background. I grew up travelling with my parents and moved constantly from country to country and by the time I was eighteen had gone to about nine schools in as many countries. I was a curious boy and liked to read, explore, etc. but gradually it became apparent that no school system could do justice to the totality of the world overwhelming me.
And things only got much worse when my sex drive kicked in--for then I was much more concerned with fitting in and this directly conflicted with the shortcomings in the educational system as I perceived it and set up a terrible conflict in me. Do I try to fit in and shortchange my intellect and just accept all the conflicting aspects of the world as irreconcilable or do I go my own way and try to solve some of the world problems?
Obviously I had to go my own way. I began failing in school--I hated it--but still on the other hand wanted to fit in because a person does need sex, love, and to be accepted by others.
By the time I was eighteen I was a high school dropout and the fury of the conflict had reduced me to the point of being a drug addict unable to determine who or what was at fault. Society? Family? A genetic aspect of myself?
Then I took the LSD. In a single night I took a decisive step forward. I consider it the most important event in my life period. Comparable to the onset of puberty but the onset of puberty of the mind. The experience was extremely powerful and I felt I was becoming Christ or something. I had to do some more reading before I arrived at my current evaluation: I was driven to my full intellectual powers much more rapidly than naturally, as if being thrust into the final stage of thought as described by Piaget (the stage of formal operational thought) or thrust into the final stage as described today by scientists that assert a child really does not become an adult brain-wise until about the age of twenty-five.
I consider it a religious experience because reading Eugene Herrigal's "the method of Zen" was quite an easy experience for me afterward, and still to this day I consider his book the best on Zen I have read. (He accurately described the mental and behavioral changes which occured to me).
I am still trying to process the experience, but I will say--among other things--it was as if I recaptured being the boy I was prior to the onset of puberty, etc. I quite simply went my own way and had the courage, faith, and enjoyment in doing what I always liked to do as a boy others be damned. Certainly my sex drive does not lead me into following others around...I will not change who I am for love, sex, marriage, acceptance, etc.
I have really no idea how to categorize the experience. Obviously, as I stated, at first I thought I was becoming Christ. Now I am more inclined to believe that there are certain stages of human development which are transition periods of great potential: If a person can be rapidly and decisively driven through those transitions the person will not only be more firmly established in the next stage, he will in fact know more clearly that he has passed through a transition, that he has changed.
In other words I am much more scientific about the experience than I once was--although Zen, Shamanism, mystical experiences throughout the ages, etc. certainly enlightened me and established the experience as decisive in my heart.
Whether you want to call this a religious experience or not...I suppose in areas such as these we have the most questions because experiences such as these tend to push a person to where he cannot be certain something has come from outside him to grace him or if he has drastically been born into something of his strictly genetic legacy.
I am inclined to lean toward genetic legacy because I have never known and rarely heard of anyone having the experience I have had, but then again that can also argue for the grace of God.
Perhaps it would be best to say that no matter how much such experiences are reduced to science, we should be thankful as if they come from God.
I am certainly grateful to the present day. My life was literally given to me no questions asked. I seem to have acquired something of a power of intellect and creative insight from the experience, but then again how much of that is inborn I have no idea...
I do know that when people talk about superheroes and wanting powers and all that I just smile because I know a person does not really need what he would like to be power, all he needs is that small step forward to something of a comprehension of self.
In one night I had an experience which led to an end of drug abuse, despair--virtually all we associate with "being down"--to my becoming the writer you read today...
This is not to say I advocate the taking of LSD. I think much more work should go into studying psychedelic drugs in general. But I do believe in the future we will both have greater knowledge of genetics and the potential stages in people's lives, and we will employ pharmaceutical tools to optimize human existence.
In fact I believe through genetics and true medicines we will not be so much concerned with curing sicknesses as increasing human existence toward genius. We will declare ourselves sick if not being up to our genius potential.
Consider that a prophecy born out of an unusual religious experience....
"What was your own most formative religious experience, if you had one?"
For me, it was the first time I cast a circle by myself. Wiccans cast circles to create sacred space in which to worship. I was about halfway through the ritual when I realized I had left out something important. Horrified, I rushed back to the altar, and when I touched it I felt an overwhelming sense of loving amusement, like I was a little girl and had done something to tickle the heck out of Mom and Dad. I ended up sitting cross-legged before the altar, having the most singular conversation, a combination of words, thoughts, and feelings. The one thing I clearly remember is apologizing for messing up the ritual, and I heard(?), "Silly, the ritual is for you, not for us." I don't remember what it was that I had forgotten for the ritual, but that profound insight has stayed with me all the years since.
If that was a hiccup in my brain, I am deeply grateful for it.
Eric: That is a pretty standard list of theological copout answers. I find it interesting that you actually still have questions after those mind-numbing answers you keep getting. I bet another answer you get a lot is “just go read the bible”. Well, that makes sense I guess if you already accept the bible as truth, but if you have honest questions about its legitimacy in the first place, I don’t see how that answer is much help.
Anyways, I don’t have time to go question by question, nor will I try to pretend I can give you irrefutable evidence for all your questions, but I am a Christian who needs more than just blind faith to back up what I believe so maybe we aren’t that far apart. I don’t know. I do know that I also dislike common answers. Anyways, I don’t have time to answer all your questions. Pick two questions if you are interested in chatting more.
It continues to disappoint me that 99% of religious people continue to look to the past for answers. In just the last 75 years a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God and for life after death has emerged, most notably the near-death phenomenon and psychics such as Edgar Cayce and Jane Roberts (Seth). The Seth Material is the most remarkable body of writing I have ever read. Seth answered all our questions about God, physical life, and about the after-life -- it's just that nobody takes it seriously because no one takes pychics seriously. The Seth material is brilliant, logical and insightful from beginning to end, far more so than the Bible or any other religious document. Reading it has changed my life.
To Jonathan Caddell:
Thanks for sharing your experience with the ball of light that you felt was Jesus:
I have a few questions and I don’t mean them to be disrespectful. I am truly curious and interested.
When you saw the bolt of light, how did you know it was Jesus and not just God or maybe your recently deceased friend or a meteor?
Once you determined it was Jesus, what did you do? For instance, did you start going to church? If so, what denomination? How did you decide what church to attend? Were you already Christian?
How did your experience affect your relationship to the Bible? For instance, did you read it more? Did you decide that everything in it was the word of God? Did recognizing the presence of Jesus mean that you also then accepted the New Testament stories of the life and works of Jesus? If so, how did that happen? For instance, did it happen spontaneously, during the initial experience, or was it more gradual?
I hope you come back to the forum and address at least some of these questions.
Thanks
There is nothing like being in the midst of your daily problems of life, then you hear the call for prayer. A load of stress just falls off your shoulders. No wonder prophet Mohamed (PBUH) used to say: "Oh Bilal (the man who calls the prayer), comfort our hearts with it!". There is also that feeling that, no matter how bad things get or how unfair life might me, there is always a day where justice will be supreme. That day, no bosses, kings, or presidents have a say in judging people. Only the Mighty God will judge among His servants.
I am always humbled by the actions of prophet Mohamed, which I contrast with people who attack his character for no reason at all. Here is one small story.
Prophet Mohamed had a young son whose name was Ibrahim. That son died. On the day he died, there was an eclipse in the sky. Moslims ran to prophet Mohamed and told him that "this is a miracle", your son died and an eclipse happened accordingly. It occured to me that if Mohamed (PBUH) was a liar or touched by devil, he would've went along with the miracle theory. Yet, that prophet of God got upset with the moslims and said:
"The moon and the sun are two signs from God, they do not eclipse for the birth of someone nor for the death of a son of Mohamed"!
May God's peace and blessings be on you oh prophet of God. He set the example, and moslims followed!
Ironically, it was when I was going through confirmation in an ELCA Lutheran Church. I had never really liked church. We had good pastors with a flair for storytelling, so the sermons were generally interesting and not too preachy, and I loved hymns, especially the old praise hymns. But the whole Bible, Jesus, God-the-Father type stuff never did anything for me. At the time I actually thought Jesus was too preachy and smug, after all he was just human, right? *grin* I've mellowed a bit since then.
Confirmation was pretty laid back since we were in between youth pastors, so I never had to memorize catechism or anything like that. But our final year of confirmation we had to have mentors, and that's when I really started questioning what I believed. I was about 16 at the time and I discovered that since I was (and still am) a feminist and an environmentalist and extremely tolerant of differences, but not so much liking evangelism, I really wasn't Christian. I discovered that I liked Nature and sensuality and beauty and thought most ideas regarding "sin" to be stuff and nonsense. I was exploring Paganism when I actually felt as though I'd been touched (literally and physically) by the Goddess. Which Goddess, I don't know or remember, but it was a pretty powerful experience. One I haven't been able to replicate in the ensuing six years, but that was pretty much it for me. I rejected Christianity and monotheism and hierarchical religion and forged my own spiritual path. They say that you don't convert to Paganism, you just discover that there's a name for what you already believe. This is pretty much true, for me at least.
I realized that the parlor tricks magic of Christianity had nothing on the everyday, magick-in-the-mundane wonder that Paganism brought to my life. Ironically, in searching for answers, I've only found more questions, but I kind of like it that way.
that was beautiful simplewords- my own experience is so simple and quick that i hesitated to share it in case someone might think it was a sign- or mystical in some way- muslims dont worship ALLAH to feel good, or because we think there are signs that are especially for us-
please i dont say this to make any judgement on anyone who has had a personal experience with god- not at all- but it is a different way of worshipping- worshipping ALLAH because He is the god- when i was about 11 i was reborn as a christian
and i had a comic strip from a beatnik artist from the 50s named jim crane- in it a man, hat in hand, is asking god- if i worship you will you make me rich? then another famous? then powerful? and some others- the answer was never given but it was implied--- and then in the end he says- oh i must worship you because you are god? and then in the next box his hat is on his head and he says, what kind of a deal is that?
that made such an impression on my little girl psyche- i was from an agnostic and atheist family and my search was purely my own-
that comic resnated with me because i saw always the peope i looked to for guidance and all their prayers were asking asking asking- taking taking taking- and i knew this was wrong- i knew this wasnt worship but some kind of deal being struck-
as an adult ive gone through so many different kinds of faiths- worshipping and searching- i finally later settled on franciscan catholicism because he was a fool for god- forsaking all comforts and reputation and focused on god only- the franciscans also do all selfless service to humanity- but the thing about the franciscans was their total submission to the will of god.
for a long time i used to think i was "in the flow" and traffic lights would always be green and things would with easy synchronicity fall into place and i would follow thinking it was gods will for me.
when i became muslim i realized it was indeed the real shaitan (satan) who was misleading me and i easily followed because it was so easy-
islam is not easy- i am forced to learn and introspect and grow and question and suffer and develop- if i wanted to feel good i couldve chanted into bliss- but there is much more to life than feeling good- there is making a positive contribution to other humans- their development my develpoment there is responsibility and discernment and making hard decisions with wisdom and sticking by them- and ultimately there is worshipping ALLAH- who has a personal name because He is my constant friend- and in worshipping ALLAH
5 times a day i must discipline and reroute my attentions and focus my being in a consistent and disciplined way to give when i pray- the time for asking is after the prayer is over- but the prayer itslef is an exercise in conscious gratitude- and a giving of my whole self-
there is no magic- no signs- ebven Jesus(ata) himself said you are a generation chasing after signs- it is not easy but it is so much more fulfilling in such a deeper and realer way.
thats all
peace
i dont have time but ill share later what happened specifically
The question is"What was your own most formative religious experience, if you had one?"
I grew up in an atmosphere of rationalistic, atheistic, iconoclastic mumbo jumbo, often wondering what God was all about. I was living with my parents who were however quite religious. One night, it was raining heavily. My mother, who was sleeping in her bedroom alongside of my one year old baby sister, suddenly woke up from her sleep, and bundling the baby in her hands, came running out of her bedroom, screaming that her patron saint appeared in her dream and told her to get out of the room since the roof of the room was going to collapse. Hardly had my mother come out of the room, when the roof of the bedroom came down with a huge thud. Hearing the noise, all the neigbours came out, and were relieved to note that no one was injured.
Right then, I realised that there was something more to life than all the stupid rationalistic, nihilistic arguments. Faith or philosophy cannot bake bread, but then to bake bread, one does need a belief, a philosophy. That was a transforming moment for me.
Naina Marbus wrote:
"My mother, who was sleeping in her bedroom alongside of my one year old baby sister, suddenly woke up from her sleep, and bundling the baby in her hands, came running out of her bedroom, screaming that her patron saint appeared in her dream and told her to get out of the room since the roof of the room was going to collapse. Hardly had my mother come out of the room, when the roof of the bedroom came down with a huge thud."
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I have never come across anything that could not be explained in some "natural" way. I have come across many stories of supernatural events, and experienced a few strange things myself, but I have never found conclusive proof of anything supernatural.
Nobody dream about patron saints unless they have spent time thinking about Catholicism.
I propose that she heard the sound of the roof collapsing and incorporated this into her dream. It is not uncommon for people to incorporate things they hear into their dreams. Was the roof known to be in a state where it might collapse?
My mother's "woman's intuition" told her to turn off the furnace late one winter's night.
We all had a very cold and fitful sleep, but were relieved and grateful when the furnace guy who came the next day reported that the carbon monoxide level was very high. He fixed the furnace.
It never occurred to any of us to ascribe Mom's prescience to God - and we were church-goers -- except for Mom. Church made her nervous.
To Bill Gwin:
You equate not having faith in God with having faith in God by assuming that both beliefs are acts of faith. Lack of faith is not faith. For example, I have no faith that I can fly by flapping my arms. That belief is based on evidence and reasoning, not faith.
You then say "It is so sad, that so many people stubbornly refuse to accept the real truth." By your own admission, belief in God must be based on faith. Faith is not based on evidence or reasoning. It is belief idependent of truth. Or, as you put it, it is belief because you want to believe it.
GOD OF THE DAY:
ANDVARI
Norse Mythology
In Norse mythology, Andvari guarded treasures, including Tarnkappe, a cape of invisibility, and gave Loki the magic ring of the Aesir, which is called Draupnir.
Andvari is also known as Alberich.
BONUS GOD:
Glooscap
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Glooscap (also spelled Glooskap, Gluskabi, Kluscap, Kloskomba, or Gluskab) is a mythical culture hero, god, and "transformer" of the Algonquian peoples. He was an important figure for the Abenaki in the United States and Atlantic Canada, particularly the Passamaquoddy, as well as to the Mi'kmaq (Micmac), who were part of the Wabanaki Confederacy. He is also known by various other names among nearby tribes.
Sarah , eirsinitiate.wordpress.com
"I discovered that I liked Nature and sensuality and beauty and thought most ideas regarding "sin" to be stuff and nonsense."
Exactly! "If it harm none, do what you will." Harming others is the only sin.
"They say that you don't convert to Paganism, you just discover that there's a name for what you already believe"
That was so true for me. I was Wiccan before I knew what Wicca was.
Blessed Be, Sarah, as you discover your spiritual path.
Sarah , eirsinitiate.wordpress.com:
"I realized that the parlor tricks magic of Christianity had nothing on the everyday, magick-in-the-mundane wonder that Paganism brought to my life. Ironically, in searching for answers, I've only found more questions, but I kind of like it that way."
Yes, Yes, Yes! Few of my Christian friends seem to recognize the "magick-in-the-mundane" that I see each and every day. Keep searching for answers and finding more questions, Sarah, and Blessed Be as you follow your spiritual path.
What is with this site? Your post a comment; it's not there when you check, then five minutes later there it is, after you've reposted! Apologies to all.
I was about 24 years old; divorced; with one child; attended Church as a young child; but received an education with a scientific focus; suddenly found myself wanting to KNOW 'is God REAL'!
I started reading The Bible, physics and biology texts, ancient and current philosophic concepts---then like a vision 'out of the blue'---the answer came! From that day forward I KNEW there is a God,---and prayed that I would be able to love, and be loved!
I no longer remember exactly what my reasoning was. It surrounded the impossibility for there to be a nothing. That therefore a completely different consciousness must exist. A world different from the physical world, and the beginning and end mentality it forms. That the physical world was created,--with humanity given conscious access to the REAL, or God's world; but then something went wrong,---and caused conscious separation from God's world; that through Christ's message to follow your heart, rather than carnal knowledge; as we 'came together in thought', humanity was finding its way out of a very emotionally incompatible world!
I now believe my knowledge of God had nothing to do with my reasoning; but everything to do with "seek and ye shall find!" That the actual knowledge of God is an entirely personal experience; and if you really want truth---God will reveal it; the answer in actuality comes from God! For me, there was never again a doubt,--it is an everlasting revelation, to which further contemplation tediously continues to add physical support!
I KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD AND IT TOOK A VERY
IMPORTANT PERSON TO CALL ME BACK TO JESUS.
AT THE START OF LAST YEAR I WAS AS HARD AS
NAILS GOING THROUGH CANCER SURGERY AND RADIO
TREATMENT WHEN HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL 2
WAS SUFFERING HIS LAST ILLNESS BEFORE GOING
TO THE ALTERS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. WELL AS A
MAN OF PRAYER SOMEHOW HE MUST OF CAST HIS
FISHERMANS NET ONE MORE TIME AND CAUGHT ME.
THE NEXT THING IM ON THE WAY TO ROME GETTING
THERE AT THE START OF POPE BENEDICTS XVI
TIME BUT RETURNING TO THE CHURCH AND PAYING
MY RESPECTS AT THE TOMB OF JP2 WHERE I LEARNT
TO CRY AGAIN. IT TOOK ONE GREAT MAN TO CALL
ME AND NOW ANOTHER IN B16 TO KEEP ME SAFE
IN GODS LOVE.
I KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD AND IT TOOK A VERY
IMPORTANT PERSON TO CALL ME BACK TO JESUS.
AT THE START OF LAST YEAR I WAS AS HARD AS
NAILS GOING THROUGH CANCER SURGERY AND RADIO
TREATMENT WHEN HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL 2
WAS SUFFERING HIS LAST ILLNESS BEFORE GOING
TO THE ALTERS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. WELL AS A
MAN OF PRAYER SOMEHOW HE MUST OF CAST HIS
FISHERMANS NET ONE MORE TIME AND CAUGHT ME.
THE NEXT THING IM ON THE WAY TO ROME GETTING
THERE AT THE START OF POPE BENEDICTS XVI
TIME BUT RETURNING TO THE CHURCH AND PAYING
MY RESPECTS AT THE TOMB OF JP2 WHERE I LEARNT
TO CRY AGAIN. IT TOOK ONE GREAT MAN TO CALL
ME AND NOW ANOTHER IN B16 TO KEEP ME SAFE
IN GODS LOVE.
Pauline; posting in all capital letters is the internet equivalent of shouting. Please don't shout at us...
FLYWHEEL, I can identify with you. I see God in nature and in people who are kind and caring. I can't and won't believe in all the so-called holy scriptures since they are all man-made and serve more to divide than unite. Without organized religion the world would be a much better place.
people always say that s if it were true- but actually relgion unites millions of people to each other- its the most unifying force on the planet- are you suggesting that without religion all o f humanity would somehow magically unite?
there are many who use it a a divisive force- but many more who are unified through it-
for example look at these boards- there is a greater unity and agreement of people of different faiths-
hermit- believing that you personally cannot fly- doesnt mean that flight itself doesnt exist
you guys state opinions as absolutes- you should give believers the same leeway
see? these are my opinions they dont have to be agreed with to be real to me
I like the discussion on the final page of "who was Jesus"! Seems like christians, muslims, and athiests/agnostics had some "real" and fruitful discussions. Very related to some of the posts here.
"hermit- believing that you personally cannot fly- doesnt mean that flight itself doesnt exist"
Victoria, I'm really not sure what you're getting at here...
I can fly. But I need an airplane and a qualified pilot to do it. How about you?
Of course birds, bats and bugs all fly, too, so of course flight exists.
-----------
"you guys state opinions as absolutes- you should give believers the same leeway" (victoria)
On the contrary, if I am expressing an opinion or a belief, as opposed to an objective, empirical statement of fact, I try to be careful to make it clear that is what I am doing. In my experience it is believers who insist that their feelings, opinions and subjective beliefs must be treated as objective facts.
Let's use your flying example:
Fact: I cannot fly without mechanical aid.
Fact: I have never witnessed another human being fly without mechanical aid.
Fact: I have never seen, read or heard of any objectively verifiable account of a human being flying without mechanical aid.
My Opinion: It is probably impossible for human beings to fly without mechanical aid.
Now, if someone else holds a belief that human beings can fly without mechanical aid they are certainly entitled to hold that belief, but I am not obliged to give their subjective belief the same weight as the observable facts when forming my own opinion about whether or not human beings can fly.
I'm certainly not going to act on their belief...
Regards
A Hermit
you made that statement as an analogy to faith in god-
now youve qualified it with "mechanical aid"
so if youre saying people can indeed fly(with added qualification) it collapses as a valid analogy againt faith
thats all it simple
My most formative religious experience was realizing that just about every religion is about control and power, and that religion has very little to do with faith, belief, and wanting peace amongst the nations. Spirituality is one thing, and fine, I guess, and individual faith can also be fine, but organized religion is downright dangerous. Organized religion, and religious doctrines, are the source of so many problems around the world; when a person is taught that there is only one true religion, of course they're going to think other religions are inferior, and the people following other religious doctrines are also, in some way, inferior. I'm spiritual, but organized religion scares the crap out of me.
- hear this all the time and it doesnt make any real sense-
like racism-sexism-elitism-economic superiority and all the myriad ways that people use as excuses to subjugate each other?
socialism communism capitalism
there are so many isms in the world that separate those that desire separation
how about languages?
how about family lineage?
dont you think humans have found an extraordinary amount of isms to define include exclude and deny each other with?
religion offers cohesion and unity that transcends petty categorizations- and provideds millions with a unifying force that affects them in positive
and personal and real ways all their lives-
it binds families and communities and states and countries and even a continent-
should we abandon all political systems because they can divide people?
should all social units be dispensed with?
surely you wouldnt suggest that all the other isms are not also about control and power
its not the religions that are to blame- it is the malpractioners who use it for those very reasons
should we blame democracy for the many idiotic actions taken by its proponents?
just trying to put it in perspective
The only religious experiences I had were by far negative. I learned at an early age that religions were nothing more than a man-created method for besting one's fellow man. That anyone in this day and time can believe that there is something metaphysical controlling things is either dimwitted or a fool of the highest order.
Having an inclination towards mysticism, I've had many religious experiences, but as an atheist, some of my most formative experiences have not been religious.
I used to love the artwork inside old churches when I was young. There were winged lions and angels scenes from the Bible. I went to church most weeks and studied scripture in school.
My grandmother used to make me say grace pray at my bedside, and I prayed a lot by myself. I was steeped in religion, and as an impressionable child, I was very religious. You might say I had a close personal relationship with God.
But as I got older I started asking questions. I started to realize that a lot of the stories like Genesis and the story of Noah and the flood were probably fairy tales, and I started to question the whole thing.
As a child I used to believe that you could wish for things (like when you throw money into a wishing well) and they would come true. But when I tried to test this belief, I found that it was not true. I then realized that praying was probably a waste of time. It made no sense when I thought about it. If I needed something, God would know anyway, and if he wanted to do something he would, and if he didn’t, then my praying about it would make no difference anyway. That explained why the success of my prayers seemed to be a hit or miss affair.
Then I thought about the whole Jesus died for my sins thing. That also made no sense. God made us all sinners and set up some moral standards that are impossible for most people to follow. Then he decided to torture all of those who couldn’t live up to his standards Why does God need to kill his son, to convince himself to forgive us for not living up to the impossible standard he set for us in the first place. It didn’t make any sense, but I believed it anyway. After all of the years of indoctrination, I couldn’t not believe. I felt that not believing would be wrong. My belief was grounded in fear and guilt.
I mentioned my confusion to a friend of mine and he said “Oh, I don’t believe in God”. I was totally shocked. I thought everyone believed in God. I guess this was a turning point for me. I realized that maybe there was a way out of the guilt and confusion. Maybe the simple explanation was just that it was all a fairy tale. I still went on believing for years, but I started looking for alternatives.
I think I’ll stop there and split this into multiple posts.
To DANIEL:
In reference to your post dated 4 Jan 2007 2:53 PM, I wish to share with you the real life story of a man who shared his experience of LSD with me. Please understand that I’m merely sharing the experience of another person, and do not wish to enter into a discussion about it.
When I met EMP twenty years ago, he was thirty two years old and in the middle of his training to be a medical doctor. He portrayed his previous life on LSD as having destroyed his life rather than stimulated his genius potential. He belonged to the hippie generation and had lived the style to the hilt – drugs (“progressing” to LSD), living in communes, frequent change of sexual partners… the works. LSD gave him access to a different level of consciousness alright, but the genius of it manifested itself in his life as an inability to hold on to his job as a meteorologist and reduced him to earning his living as a taxi driver. As a young and strikingly handsome man, EMP had no problem in satisfying his heightened sex urge. He slept with every woman he “loved”, but his “love” for one woman lasted not much longer than three days. A rare relationship that lasted up to six months felt like an eternal prison to him. His access to higher level of consciousness depended on LSD, and without it his life felt hollow and meaningless. His “love” experiences didn’t satisfy his deeper need for love. But he was stuck in the lifestyle which offered its short term satisfaction. He didn’t know how to change it to get the long term satisfaction that he had started to yearn for.
The answer to his yearning came unexpectedly. He read an announcement about a talk on consciousness that was to be given by a Jesuit Zen master. It was the word ‘consciousness’ that caught his attention and awakened his interest, so he attended the talk out of curiosity. The talk moved him to tears. That was the beginning of a new life. When he met the Jesuit Zen master, with the typical bluntness of Zen masters, the Jesuit priest warned him that there was no easy path to higher consciousness. It was all hard work with no shortcuts, and if he was not prepared for it, he was merely wasting his time by dabbling in meditation. The Jesuit advised him to make a choice and pointed out that he had absolute freedom to remain in his old lifestyle with all its inevitable consequences. The message of the Jesuit Zen master was simple: ‘If you choose to follow the path faithfully, with all its hardships and hurdles, you will experience the results for yourself.’ Something in EMP was convinced that the high price of the path, which held such great promise, was worth paying for, although the Jesuit Zen master offered him no proof that had been approved by scientists. For some reason he wasn’t willing to wait until scientists delivered the proof.
EMP gave up LSD and started to do Zen meditation under the guidance of the Jesuit priest. He found that he could have the same experience with meditation that he had had previously with LSD, except that the effect of meditation lasted longer and did not cost any money. Most importantly, meditation had begun to transform his whole life. He went to Japan for an intense and longer term meditation experience, spending six months at the meditation centre of the Jesuit priest. At the end of it he decided to become a medical doctor. Academically he had a lot of catching up to do and it was extremely hard work to qualify to be accepted by the university to study medicine, but he did it. Meditation revealed his ‘demons’ one by one, the habits and thoughts that kept him from maintaining his meditation experience and attaining the ever higher level of consciousness he yearned for. He battled on… The path was the goal.
Drugs like LSD do not change consciousness. Whatever short term access to another level of consciousness it may or may not provide, is entirely dependent on the drug and cannot be maintained without it. Drugs have no positive transformative qualities. Drugs cost money and the negative side effects of it are real and must be taken into account before considering it as a path to higher levels of consciousness.
The life of EMP since I met him: He completed his medical studies and practised as a medical doctor. He had long given up his old hippie lifestyle and cut contact with everyone associated with it. Shortly after his failed attempt at working out an open marriage, a marriage that would be open on his side but strictly monogamous for his partner, he acknowledged his hypocrisy and entered into a monogamous marriage with another woman. Through his personal spiritual practice, his monogamous marriage, his love for his wife and his children, and his life of service as a medical doctor, he found the meaning and higher levels of consciousness he had sought through LSD. He died of cancer four years ago.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
I've never had a religious experience, at least nothing I can remember. I don't remember believing in santa claus or gods or boogey men. Maybe I did when I was a child, but I don't remember.
I read about religious experiences here, I listen to people describe them ... it all sounds quite delusional to me. I've never had one of those kinds of delusions.
My favorite delusion is that one day our species will free itself of this monstrous and primitive need for magic and superstion.
Frankly, I am always amazed that anybody takes this nonsense seriously.
The only religious experiences I had were by far negative. I learned at an early age that religions were nothing more than a man-created method for besting one's fellow man. That anyone in this day and time can believe that there is something metaphysical controlling things is either dimwitted or a fool of the highest order.
Yoga and being Born Again
As a teenager I still went to church with my parents, and I still believed in God, but I realized that the Christian priests didn’t really know anything. They just repeated stories that people wrote thousands of years ago like parrots. They had no idea whether God really exists or not. The whole thing seemed to be full of holes. So I read about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism and other religions. I ended up buying thousands of books. Most of the other religions actually made more sense to me than Christianity. I couldn’t see any reason why some of them might not be true. I also started reading about psychology and things like hypnosis.
I rejected Judaism together with Christianity. The Old Testament God was a baby killing monster that seemed more of a caricature than anything real. I rejected Islam because it just seemed to be a knock-off of Judaism/Christianity. I didn’t want to give up my belief in God. I wanted to find God for myself, so I started practicing yoga, which is basically the heart of Hinduism. There are many forms of yoga, but the idea is that they are ways of becoming one with God. They are all about connecting oneself to God. I figured if there was a way to find God, it had to be through meditation and direct mystical experience.
It wasn’t as linear as that really. I kept drifting away and coming back to Christianity during my early teen years. A friend of mine once convinced me to go on a Christian camp. There I became “Born Again”. I gave my life to Jesus and all that stuff. I felt like a changed person and I went around praising the Lord and getting all evangelical for a week or two. But since I didn’t actually know many like-minded people I started to feel silly about it and my rational mind started to kick in again. It just wasn’t really me. I re-read all of the pamphlets that they gave me at the camp, and I realized that they were very similar to any other kind of advertising – designed to hook you emotionally. I also noticed a similarity between the practices at the camp and the techniques hypnotists use. It all seemed to be about manipulating people and hooking them in. I wanted to find God for myself, not get conned into believing something.
At the same time, I started to incorporate ideas from other religions into my world view. I started to believe the new-age thinking that all religions might lead to the same place and that they were all different ways of looking at the same thing. My Christian friends started to get shocked when I started saying things like “what is wrong with pantheism?”
I got up very early and practiced yoga every morning. I was mainly interested in Raja Yoga which is all about meditation and direct experience of connection with God. I learnt a lot about how my mind works and I started to feel very close to God. I had many experiences of great oneness with the universe and a connectedness with other people. I started to feel that my consciousness was connected to that of other people and that I could almost see through other people’s eyes at times.
The practice of yoga is supposed to give you the ability to understand the thoughts of others and the ability to override the laws of nature. So being rationally minded, I decided to test the theory. I already seemed to be getting pretty well advanced in meditation, so I decided to practice levitation. If I could do that, besides being pretty cool, it would prove that my experiences weren’t just self-delusion. I spent about two years practicing meditation and breathing exercises every day trying to levitate off the ground. Well you might guess that it didn’t happen. I also tried to move objects with my mind and all kinds of things like that. There were many times that I fooled my self into thinking I had read someone’s mind or predicted the future - all kinds of things. If you want badly enough to find evidence for such things you can. But there was no conclusive repeatable proof that I had any kind of powers at all.
I started to realize that yoga was too egotistical for me. It was about wanting to be God and it was not really healthy no matter how humbly you approached it. Most of the gurus in India are egomaniacs. They just love the fact that people flock to them and worship them no matter how humble they act. It didn’t seem natural for me to consider myself above other people. I then started to look for a more down to earth religion. Buddhism and Taoism looked good to me. I’ll leave those for another post.
I hope I'm not boring anyone with my life's story.
Regards,
Realist
My most recent "experience" was while reading these posts. I've read posts of arrogance and disparagement, obvious lies and deceit, crying out for help and genuine faith, sensationalism and ignorance about the church of childhood{especially the Catholics}, the seeking and the delusional. My heart goes out to the foolishness of humankind! I realize how much we need a savior and pray for his mercy.
Eric, if Jesus died to pay a debt, it wasn't for long. He rose from the dead in a couple of days and lives forever in Heaven -- according to standard Christian teachings.
Lots of other people who died for their friends, soldiers in battle, for instance, died forever.
Many others have lived a lifetime of suffering, with no reward, not just a few hours on the cross, like Jesus
If I were you, I'd save your undying love and respect for people like that.
Victoria: "religion offers cohesion and unity that transcends petty categorizations- and provideds millions with a unifying force that affects them in positive
and personal and real ways all their lives-
it binds families and communities and states and countries and even a continent-"
Religion may offer "cohesion and unity" but the way I see it, it only unites the ones who share the same faith. As for "transcends petty categorizations", ha ha ha. I've found that like any organization or group religious or otherwise, there is still division. I've listened to people at my office talk about troubles at their churches. It sounds like high school where you have little cliques. And it's these subgroups that get in the way of what I thought was their real purpose for being a church - to worship "God" together.
Organized religion is not for me, but for those who have posted on here who have religion that provides the spiritual fulfillment you seek, good for you! For those who stopped seeking and are much happier, good for you! I've never understood why people have to get others to agree. And if anyone can explain why the guy at work that kept inviting me to First Baptist Church so that I could be "saved." What is this Baptist teaching of trying to "save" everyone??!!!
And finally, to Wiccan: great post about the ritual being for you and not for them!
At the risk of boring people, I'll continue my journey. Maybe someone might find it interesting.
Buddism and New Age Mysticism
Yoga and meditation helped me in many ways. They helped me get through the difficult early teen years, but I started to have doubts about the philosophy behind them. I had also been reading about Buddhism and Taoism. Buddhism seemed interesting and based on rational ideas. Sure, there is a lot of superstition associated with it, but at its heart it’s based on simple rational ideas. So I switched my yoga meditation for Buddhist meditation. The two are very similar but as a Buddhist, I realized that the self is impermanent and that we all see the world through our own prejudices. Buddhism and Buddhist meditation was a natural continuation of my spiritual journey. I got the same benefits from Buddhist mediation as I got from yoga meditation. It gave me peace and calm and the strength to face the problems of life.
I still had a new-agey supernaturalist world view. I believed in an afterlife and the reality of other “planes” and things like astral travel and chakras and all of that stuff. I believed that psychic powers were real but extremely rare and only available to those who trained their minds for many years. Buddhism brought me down to earth. I wanted proof that my worldview as not just in my imagination. I read thousands of books and talked to monks, priests, witches and theosophists, but the closer I got to anything that might actually provide conclusive proof that anything supernatural was real, the fuzzier the evidence seemed to get. I just could not find one solitary scrap of evidence that anything supernatural actually existed. So I couldn’t accept the Buddhist concept of reincarnation.
I got a lot of value out of Buddhism. It is mostly applied psychology. Buddhists have been studying the human mind and thinking about philosophy for thousands of years, and there is a lot of value in it, but I started to find that even Buddhism was too dogmatic for me. It seemed like a religion created by an accountant. There are four “Noble Truths” and there is an “Eightfold Path”. Everything was neatly classified and categorized. It didn’t seem quite right. Nature is much fuzzier than that. It seemed that Buddhism was also very much invented by people and not a description of reality. So I drifted towards the Zen end of Buddhism and Taoism.
While I was experimenting with Buddhism and Taoism, I did a science degree. This involved some physical science and lots of mathematics and philosophy. This was probably the most formative experience for me. I had kept my religious and spiritual beliefs separate from what I was learning about science. The lectures in philosophy taught me to think very clearly and to question all of my assumptions. When I started to apply this to my remaining new-age beliefs they started to evaporate in the cold light of reason. I realized that much of what I believed just was not compatible with reality.
I really can’t say that there is anything wrong with Zen or Taoism. They are both healthy practices. I still try to practice both of these when I can. There is no contradiction between a scientific world view and practising Taoism or Zen.
Maybe I'll say some more about why I'm now happy to call myself an atheist.
Bill L wrote:
My most recent "experience" was while reading these posts. I've read posts of arrogance and disparagement, obvious lies and deceit, crying out for help and genuine faith, sensationalism and ignorance about the church of childhood{especially the Catholics}, the seeking and the delusional. My heart goes out to the foolishness of humankind! I realize how much we need a savior and pray for his mercy.
I thought your post was going really well until the last sentence. Then I groaned ... more of the same foolishness.
To Soja John Thaikattil from Daniel.
I am well aware of all the drawbacks concerning LSD. Absolutely nothing you said was new to me. But perhaps I was not clear about certain things in my last post. I do not view it as a magical cure-all in the Timothy Leary 60's sense. A lot depends on a person's genetic make-up, timing in life, previous environmental influences, etc.
But I will say one thing though: You can try to tell me about the negatives all you want but I took it over twenty years ago and have been not only drug free since but consider it the major turning point in my life. It cured me of family, friends, society, school, etc.--all the constant lies and contradictions and sheer mediocre thought processes--and gave me my life back.
As a boy I was curious and enjoyed thinking etc. but soon enough everyone else in one way or another poisoned that. The LSD put me firmly back in control of my life.--And Mr. Soja I did not have to take it again. And Mr. Soja--I consider it the drug that not only awakens the mind but the drug that cures one of all drugs (should one be drug addicted) and even ITSELF.
My life speaks for itself and I find it ludicrous that you should go on a rant that it does not do this or that when I am right here as stone cold evidence that it is not only not necessarily harmful but could be very positive.
Mr. Soja, I am entering middle age a slender vegetarian of high intelligence in full command of his powers.--In other words, a man who knows himself. Perhaps I can learn to know myself better, but for you to tell me...
Of course I agree with you that people should try meditation or something else to rise to their full potential, but for you to tell me in the absolute sense that LSD does nothing but harm betrays you have not done as much meditation as you should probably be doing...
In fact you might want to read and experiment some more as well (although I am not saying take LSD).
Ahhh People! It never ends! Christ! I suppose I have to enter a laboratory or something and get fully examined...
As for your friend Mr. Soja, I pity him. And I well understand. I too have not met anyone as fortunate as I was on LSD. But the question at hand here is the most formative religious experience in life and I stand by my words.
In one night I drastically changed--regained my boyhood but with the full powers of intellect of an adult. I know psychology considers such a thing abnormal whether drug induced or not, but in one night I fully grasped what years of education could not give to me: A TOTAL PLEASURE IN THINKING. In fact I love thinking so much it has ruined my life, put me at odds with anyone whether liberal or Republican, whether religious or atheistic...
I simply think and to the best of my knowledge I am quite free...
But I understand what you mean by meditation...
Only if I could find a teacher that truly is a teacher...
But as I wrote in a poem so long ago...
Symphony of lights orchestrating the tune
Flickering marvels of incandescance
Look at those dark clouds rumbling across the sky
No one's going to show you how it will be done....
"so if youre saying people can indeed fly(with added qualification) it collapses as a valid analogy againt faith" Victoria
Not at all. And you're the one who brought up the silly flying analogy, remember...?
Try it this way:
Fact: I sought God and found nothing which I could not explain by other means (eg imagination, self persuasion, hallucination, drug experience or other chemical imbalance, emotional reaction etc. etc.)
Fact: I waited patiently for God to find me, and experienced nothing which I could not explain by other means.
Fact: I have never seen, read or heard of anyone else having a divine experience which could not also be explained by other means.
My Opinion: It is more probably true that God exists as a human invention than a real entity.
Now, if someone else holds a belief that God exists they are certainly entitled to hold that belief, but I am not obliged to give their subjective belief the same weight as the observable facts when forming my own opinion about whether or not God exists.
I'm certainly not going to act on their belief...
You see victoria; contrary to your accusation I state the facts as I know them (my own experiences in this case) and then the conclusion I draw from them stated as an OPINION.
It is you believers who continually state your opinion or belief in God's existence as if it were an observable, empirical fact.
To Realist from Daniel. I enjoyed reading your above posts. I understand what you mean. I too am pretty scientific these days. Where I stand now is I believe it is possible to drastically alter consciousness--alter it in the sense we have evidence for from changes in artistic styles within lives of artists to scientific breakthroughs which involve a feat of imagination and inspiration--but the difficulty seems that the more drastic the change the more a person is likely to attribute it to something outside himself, and trying to map the terrain to know for certain the difference between inside and outside and how much is "God" and how much "man" is difficult.
The less a man changes the more he can be spoken of as occupying a position of fixity and I suppose he gradually comes to believe there is nothing apart from himself, let alone God. But the more mutable the person the more inside and outside becomes harder to define--and of course there are sad souls that are so mutable that they never really experience themselves as themselves but only as extensions of "God's life" or something.
Just reasoning here--nothing conclusive.
I am really concerned about trying to put radical psychological changes of all types on a scientific footing. And one thing I object to atheism about (if you must know) is that it seems a quite fixed position which does not take into consideration profound changes within a person and the difficulty in devising a vocabulary for such a thing.
For example, atheists deny the existence of God. but God is not just something we hope for in an afterlife: it is also a dream of omnipotence, omniscience,--and part of a vocabulary of trying to describe radical psychological change (conversion experience). I believe atheism cannot be put on a firm footing until clearly formulating a theory of imagination and inspiration apart from God (how we imagine and what exactly is inspiration).
Rather than attack the concept of God etc. one must GO OVER THE TOP and actually increase human imagination, inspiration, etc. all the while somehow increasing critical faculties as well to keep from superstition etc.
How to do that is one hell of a project. I have had to devise something of that within my own life. No one could have explained such a thing...
Once again, I like your stuff and I hope I do not offend too much, although unfortunately it seems my destiny is to offend and be alone.
C'est la vie, always the thinking life....
Realist!
Thank you for sharing so much of your story. It sounds like we have walked very similar paths, you and I.
Those undergraduate courses in philosophy and elementary logic were real eye-openers for me; forced me to examine all of the beliefs I had explored in a new,and very revealing, light. I just wish I'd started sooner...
To DANIEL:
I'm sorry if I sounded like I was questioning your personal experience. You shared your experience and I shared the experience of a man who had a different experience with LSD, that was really all. What is wrong with that? Every human experience is unique and who am I to question or pass judgement on yours or that of EMP? I had no idea that you did not continue to use LSD. The purpose of my sharing was 1. To illustrate that one could have the same experience of LSD with meditation, 2. It was possible to have a negative experience with LSD as EMP did.
I doubt very much if EMP would have thought he needed anyone's pity. He was happy and grateful about the developments in his life. To each man his own.
I agree that it is not easy to find a good meditation teacher. The Jesuit Zen master I mentioned, was a deeply committed Christian. He reached out to everyone, including the intellectual atheists in a language they would find acceptable, so he spoke in terms of consciousness. In keeping with his religious conviction, he could have referred to the transformative process through meditation as "becoming more Christlike from the depths of one's being", but that would have kept many people out. He wanted to reach out to as many people as possible. But in Zen style he did not accept anyone who was not seriously committed to a long and tough journey. That is not to say that Zen masters think that Zen is the only way. It simply means that Zen as a spiritual practice, is considered appropriate only for a few tough ones, just as in the Catholic tradition only a few feel called to the monastic or contemplative way. The religious superiors who accept them have a duty to test out if the person is really called to follow such a hard path.
As to my personal opinion that drugs should not be used as a tool to elevate anyone's level of consciousness: 1. Development of consciousness belongs to the spiritual realm, and is accessible to everyone. It is not a drug induced state available only to the few. Meditation is not the only way to raise the level of consciousness. Many other spiritual practices achieve the same goal. Only a pure mind can truly transcend, and that purity of mind can be achieved in many ways. Each person must find the way that appeals to their emotions and intellect. 2. If it were so simple to sell higher consciousness across the counter, every pharmaceutical company would have done so long ago.
I'm happy for you that you have found your own unique way to peace and a better quality of life.
BTW I'm female. The middle name, John, is my father's first name - by community tradition.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
lessons from zoology
in memory of sal
alan the poet describes sal as the following:
i had a mule her name is sal 15 years on the erie canal,she is good strong mule and she is good old pal 15 years on the erie canal.
sal is one of the many mules who helped digging the famous erie canal at the beuatiful great lakes area.sal done humanity a great favor and excellent job by digging the canal where millions of humans benefit around the clock,sal never made it to no school,she doesnot read nor write ,she doesnot carry under her belt no scientific lab nor she carry logic analyizer on her head,as a matter of fact she walks on 4x4 and she has a tail.sal never made it to harvard nor to george town not even to the capital hill.the significance of sal is far and way beyond the canal ,the significance of sal is that sal knew exactly what to do in this life ,she done it and now she rest in peace.its amazing where sal received all this intellegence from ,all the wisdom from,all the endurance from,all the tolerance from,sal will make us humanbeings are ashamed.whoever created sal is worthy of all praise.
To Soja from Daniel. Unfortunately I have to disagree with you about a few things. In fact you contradict yourself. First you state that drugs do not offer a fast way toward transcendence and that prolonged and difficult meditation is necessary--that in fact higher states of mind are difficult--and then you say the path is open to anyone...If it were open to anyone we all would already be there. All too many of us are not there whether by drugs or not...And as for the few that are capable of getting there by the difficult path as you call it, who are you to say that one of those people might not get there faster by a drug...especially when all throughout human history the psychedelics especially have been associated with spirituality?
I find your objections especially interesting because from what I can tell is that you are Indian and as anyone can determine, the foundation of Indian thought has been associated with a drug called Soma which has been theorized to be Amanita Muscaria--Asian fly agaric which is still used by Siberian shamans...
But perhaps you can enlighten me....
RESPONDING- actually the point was not at all about religion- it was about how people always say religion divides as if that were something in itself- all isms divide was my point and if people are inclined to divide or exclude they also do it with so mnay other things- but we dont say lets get rid of democrarcy because it divides- and it certainly does- people all over the world will testify to the divisive power that bushs democracy has made in their life-
its throwing the baby out with the bathwater and its not really much of an argument against relgion- that was the point
To Mo from Daniel. I liked your piece about Sal. I wish I could be like that. The other day when I told a friend I was coughing blood because I was running around with my friends dogs too soon after a cold he told me about race horses coughing blood after running so hard and said a mule is best for rough terrain...I mentioned how that sounds so much like the story of the tortoise and the hare--go fast and you cough blood, go slow and be like the mule but successful...I think I like the mule life--that seems safer and humbler. The fast life is for only horses like Secretariat--you have to be a genetic freak to run so hard and safely. I pace myself now and allow ecstasy to happen naturally...just chomp on simple plants, sh*t and work...and what happens happens....
Daniel,
Thanks for the encouragement. You have not insulted me. I don't have any problem with anyone disagreeing with me and pointing that out. I like reading your posts. You force me to think - and that's a good thing!
A Hermit,
I wish I had started thinking rationally sooner as well. I wasted a lot of time on my quest for the supernatural. I think I learnt a lot in the process though.
It's funny you were talking about faith in being able to fly. I actually tried to do it for two years! How stupid I was! :-)
To Bill L:
We were talking in another thread about the causes of homsexuality. I didn't know that the genetic link has been discredited. I thought there was evidence that homosexuality runs in families. I do know of a study that indicates that homosexuality is caused by exposure to hormones in the womb.
I found a link to it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5120004.stm
There are some other related links off that page.
The strongest evidence for the fact that it is not a choice comes from homosexuals. Just ask one! The homosexuals (apart from bisexuals) that I've spoken to about this said that they have never felt any attraction to the opposite sex.
I think the fact that homosexual researchers want to believe that it is genetic speaks volumes. They certainly don't believe it is a choice.
Many male homosexuals are effeminate as children. I saw an interview on TV with two identical twin boys. One was playing with Barbie dolls and wearing nail polish and the other was more into GI Joe and monster trucks. The parents said they treated them both the same way, but it was pretty obvious that one of them was psychologically male and the other female. It's who they were it was not just how they were behaving.
DANIEL
that alarmed me- it made you a real person- take care of yourself and slow down for a minute- thats a scary and serious thing-
peace daniel
Is it really necessary to find the RIGHT religion? Or to base the existence of God on a religious view?
I must credit religious social influence; and scriptural passages for taking me to a place deep within thought; but the experience of God is personal; still a common potential, as uncounted millions have attested to this knowledge throughout the eras; to know God may well be the only true EQUAL opportunity available; It is a conscious sense; and can't be communicated in the usual manner of physical instruction; in similarity to ideals as compassion or justice. Not religious structure; or doctrine; but the message of religions matters; and this is inaudible to the ear!
I consider myself a Christian; not because of any religious affiliation; but because the words of Christ have effected realization of a natural social conscience; and activated personal potential;---and this is something no ordinary human being could have accomplished!
To Soja from Daniel. Soja, I really have to question your last post. In fact I find it astonishing that you should write such a thing as contradictory as it is...I find it astonishing that you seem to have no insight into your very words which virtually anyone can analyze...
To begin, you talk about the Jesuit Zen master and how difficult it is to reach the heights of spirituality--in fact how in both the Zen and Catholic traditions few tread the difficult path and that the "superiors have a duty to test if the person is capable of following the path".
Right there we can state in your own words that spirituality is not easy, not democratic, not available to just anyone.
But then you state "the development of consciousness belongs to the spiritual realm and is accessible to everyone and is not a drug induced state available to only the few".
Obviously in the first part of the sentence you have contradicted the Jesuit Zen master part about the spiritual path being difficult.
Would it not be fair to state that the spiritual path is difficult, not accessible to everyone?
As for the "drug induced state available to only the few", let us set that aside for a moment.
Let us move on to your statement that "only a pure mind can transcend". And that is just anyone? Hell, have we even been able to state accurately in all of human history what a pure mind is?
So I think we can state that spirituality is difficult.
Now move on to your statement that if "drugs could achieve the spiritual state they would have been sold over the counter long ago".
But I never said that drugs were an easy path--in fact you know this because you yourself stated "drug induced path available to only the few". Remember?
Here is exactly what I am saying: the heights of spirituality are difficult but in especially those with a predisposition to the heights drugs can indeed boost them...You might not like that idea Soja, but unfortunately your spiritual alternatives themselves are not just available to anyone--or rather they are, but what effect will they really have? Are they not just as useless as drugs? In plain English, unfortunately for most people not only will the paths you subscribe be useless, probably even drugs will be useless, but in those capable of genuine spiritual insight, drugs can make a difference...
Is this not a fair analysis? No, of course not--I have not been democratic, right? You speak of the practices you subscribe as being open to anyone--but then again you say the heights are not open to anyone...So it really is you that is not democratic when you think of it...And if anyone is democratic, I am, by suggesting a drug taken by anyone might make a difference although I would not count on it...
I think I am being more honest and analytical about it than you Soja--unless you can give me a better analysis...
It sounds to me you are somewhat authoritarian, as if objecting to not only my achieving a measure of spiritual insight without a teacher, but having arrived there by a drug...How galling it must be for you! I enjoy myself immensely thinking about it...But I suppose I should be humble about it...The infinite complexity of human existence....
To Victoria from Daniel. Thanks for concern Victoria, but I am ok now--no longer coughing blood and free of cold completely. In fact I lifted weights the other night...feeling pretty good actually...How about you? You seem pretty healthy and cheerful except for the atheists getting you down...It must be quite an eye-opener all these strange people with strange thoughts so different from Muslim teaching...But then again the Sufis and the Koran itself are pretty strange...I wish I knew Arabic--I can see right off that Arabic is a beautiful language, concepts like Fanah, etc. Is Fanah arabic actually? I have no idea...I like that concept though--essentially I like vocabularies of ecstasy...I need to read and learn some more about Islam--thanks again for concern!
Dan
To DANIEL:
I’m trying to clarify what I wrote without getting into a long drawn discussion on spiritual practices. I’m only an expert in explaining my own spiritual journey. What I know in addition to that is the little information I have gathered as a result of meeting various people and reading some books in the context of my personal journey. But I’m far from qualified to hold an intellectual debate on the topic of spiritual practices. You are right I’m from India, but that does not in itself serve as a qualification, and as mentioned earlier, I have not invested any time in trying to become a specialist in spirituality of any kind, much less Indian.
The claim that the “foundation of Indian thought” is associated with a drug called ‘Soma’ nevertheless sounds a bit far fetched to me, as also the assumption that psychedelics have been associated with spirituality throughout history. Drugs may have been part of a particular practice but it is definitely not associated with mainstream practice of Hinduism. Entering into an altered state of consciousness with drugs is not the same as attaining a higher level of consciousness through spiritual practice. A spiritual practice can after all be as simple as devotional prayer and doing good works, even doing ordinary everyday work as an act of devotion. How many people actually do that kind of spiritual practice day in and day out? How many would be able to live the Sermon on the Mount every single day of their lives, simple as the words are to understand? You mentioned the practice of Shamanism which involves among other things the use of drugs. It would seem that the Shaman does not distribute the drugs to everyone routinely to help ordinary people achieve altered states of consciousness. I must confess to ignorance on Shamanism, but what I do know from being born in India and having been raised there is that taking drugs, even LSD, is not recommended as standard practice for attaining God realisation. Drugs are not recommended as part of any mainstream spiritual practice. There are many occult practices, which may or may not involve use of drugs. But the use of drugs is definitely not mentioned in any mainstream Hindu Scripture.
Psychic powers of the spiritual world accessed by certain types of intense spiritual practices are quite different from the divine qualities (considered much higher than psychic powers), such as compassion and love that is accessible to everyone. Getting stuck at the level of psychic powers may be a hindrance to spiritual progress, hence meditation teachers warn against paying attention to any visions, and psychic abilities that may emerge in the course of meditation practice.
If everyone practised the Sermon on the Mount, or spiritual tenets in their respective religions which reflect that, practised devotion to the God of their religion and love towards themselves and their neighbours, we’d all be at much higher levels of consciousness, without drugs or meditation. I thought I made it clear that meditation is not a path for everyone and at the same time it is not the only spiritual practice there is. For example no Catholic would agree that one must become a monk or join a contemplative order to reach Heaven, and yet it is a path that appeals to some. I believe that God draws people to Himself in different ways and any path is better than none. Everyone who seeks God will find Him. All religions are revelations of God to a particular people at a particular time in history. As a Christian by conviction, I believe in a God of infinite love and mercy who came in the Person of Jesus Christ to tell mankind about it, to offer Himself as a sacrifice to set mankind free from the c. Hence I would personally recommend Christianity. But I do not go about preaching to anyone because I do not feel called to be an Evangelist.
Like Victoria, I was a little concerned when I read your post that mentioned you coughed up blood recently. I hope you got your MD’s opinion on that. Since you chomp on simple plants, ever considered getting B12 checked? Just a thought that crossed my mind spontaneously.
Daniel, I have not appointed myself as judge over anyone’s faith or religious practice. I do not play a spiritual guide to anyone. It is not my calling. I wish you happiness and contentment through any path you may choose, and hope that you may find all the help and guidance you may need!
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
To Soja from Daniel.
More and more I feel we should continue our discussion Soja and I hope you will feel so inclined. This conversation I feel is extremely important as it is a discussion of spirituality, human development, the difficulty of attaining the heights of such, and whether or not the path can be easier.
It seems as if when discussing spirituality the human race is in something of a contradiction: We speak of saints, monastic orders, the difficulties of Zen Buddhism, etc. on one hand, but on the other we have "the spiritual life open to anyone", religions encompassing millions...
So is the spiritual life easy or difficult--and if difficult should we expect it to be difficult and in fact want to increase this difficulty or should we make it easier?
You seem to be caught in the bind of on one hand saying "consciousness is open to everyone" but on the other hand recognizing the difficulty of following the path what with your mention of Monastic orders, etc.
And of course you object to the use of drugs in spiritual practice.
I can understand your concern about drugs used for spiritual enlightenment if the effect is liable to cause as much harm as good--in other words if drugs are unpredictable--but what if they can be made much more predictable?--Would that not be a boon for mankind as the heights of spirituality are so difficult?
Or would you continue to object to drug use for spiritual enlightenment?
If you were to do so even if drugs could be made which were much safer I would have to say you are comparable to those that dislike the internet because they fear challenges to their authority...
What would it really mean if the heights of spirituality were made much easier?
I am not saying at the present time such drugs exist. I do believe the heights of spirituality are difficult and do not presume to know everything...But I do believe that in some people drugs have had a positive effect, that a significant step forward has been taken by such people under the influence of certain drugs...
The question seems to be whether or not we want to make spirituality easier for everyone and whether or not we want to calibrate drugs toward this effect...And of course whether spirituality has a genetic component and we can genetically engineer people capable of simultaneous mystical, artistic and intellectual ecstasy and drive such people higher by carefully controlled drug use...
What we do know for certain is where we stand today: that the heights of spirituality are difficult and that the majority of the human race is condemned to the valleys of heat, death and misery...And even worse, those capable of the heights are not even supposed to take anything which would make enlightenment easier, such things as drugs...
So we have a few people making it and the vast majority condemned to the hell of the valley of heat or at best plateaus and plains...
I really wonder if things should be unnecessarily difficult...
I consider myself something of a bastard and I probably deserve a difficult life as my face internally seems to be constantly screwed up in a sarcastic and malicious secret pleasure in the discomfort of others, but...really I wonder if life should not be a bit easier for people without it meaning stuffing their faces with bad food and essentially ruining their health...and I wonder if there is not a measure of redemption for myself if I can point a bit of the way even if possessing blunt fingers...
I would like your thoughts on this...It seems the spiritual life is taking a hit what with science, materialism, atheists, etc. but could it possibly be we are merely momentarily discouraged because of the difficulty of making transcendence truly a democratic phenomenon?
What would it mean for religion if churches truly could provide a measure of salvation, truly awaken people within their own lifetimes, and everyone be something of a priest of this religion and add to it in life?
Would this not be not only something of a reconciliation of science with religion but something of a realization of science and an important aspect it has neglected because of the sheer difficulty of the task?
I await your answer Soja. And may we all soldier on together....
Daniel,
You should get your lungs checked out if you haven't already. Most guys hate to go to the doctor.
I don't think there is any such thing as a one-size-fits-all religion. I think we're all different. I think it's important to have a choice. I think it is important that we have many different perspectives on life. There is strength in diversity.
The strongest drugs I've ever taken have been caffeine and alcohol, ... and morphine. I would be keen to try LSD if it was safe, but I've heard too many bad things about it.
My most formative religious experience was on Labor Day weekend of 1999. I went to a set of meetings in Homer, Louisiana and heard a man from Canada preaching about a humble Kentuckian named William Branham. He started the great healing campaigns in the 1940's when Billy Graham was just getting started. His ministry was so great that Oral Roberts saw God answering his prayers and then got started in his own ministry. People would come before William Branham and God would tell them where they were from and what they were in need of, which is commonly known as discernment. His discernment was never once wrong. His ministry fulfilled the prophesy of Malachi chapter 4. The healings were great but as a Prophet his main objective was to reveal the word of God that was so mixed up by so many different ministers and denominations. He passed from this life in 1965 but I've been listening to the tapes from his campaigns for the last seven years. It has truly transformed my life.
I had been raised Catholic until the 2nd grade when my parents split up and my mother went back to the Lutheran church she went to previous to converting. Right away, I could tell differences from the rigid, ceremonious style of one to the laid back, more philosophical aspects of the other. It turned me off from religion immensely, since I could not comprehend how things I needed to do in one, were not as important to the other.
At college, as a poli sci major, I looked back at faith in general with fresh eyes and a better understanding of the world. I wasnt pigeonholed into any one view of the world and could look at all faiths. On the campus,there was a "peace pole" which had on it the word "Peace" in a dozen different languages, with only a few visible at any one time based on where you were viewing it from. At that point, I had an epiphany that made me whole again as to the religious world. It can be summed up with three phrases: 1)One must dissect from any religion the important things from the faith and the important things to the organization of that faith; 2)All faiths try to describe the same thing, but approach it from different backgrounds and ways to communicate it; and 3) that thing is summed up by John Adams who said it was "Be just and good to one another."
I had been a Catholic for many years, but never really knew Christ. After my daughter converted to Christianity (Evengelical) I started to research the Bible and discovered that it was the only book that is actually back up by historical facts recorded by historians (particularly when Christ was here). The turning point for me was reading a book written by Josh McDowell, a former atheist attorney. "The Evidence That Demands A Verdict" Josh presented such an overwhelming case for Christ it convinced me Christianity was a true religion.
I had been a Catholic for many years, but never really knew Christ. After my daughter converted to Christianity (Evangelical) I started to research the Bible and discovered that it was the only book that is actually backed up by historical facts recorded by ancient historians (particularly when Christ was here). The turning point for me was reading a book written by Josh McDowell, a former atheist attorney. "The Evidence That Demands A Verdict" Josh presented such an overwhelming case for Christ it convinced me Christianity was a true religion.
What was my most formative religious experience?
I had several religious experiences when I was younger. They were all drug induced visions like one or two other folks here. I guess they really do not count because I knew I was completely off my rocker at the time.
Should I have just given in and let the "induced" God into my life while I was in a temporary state of psychosis? I think not. I'm glad I came down folks.
I'm certain that some of use just don't need the drugs to have these "unique" experiences. Some of use need a "higher" meaning. I'll be a cold hearted bastard and say, "I think you are nuts".
Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
My religious experience? Realizing at about age 12 that all organized religion was garbage and the very notion of a "god" is medieval nonsense.
Ive never had faith and I would say that Im either an agnostic or atheist depending on how the question is phrased. I wasnt indoctrinated as a child as most are and Im thankful for it. Ive had many conversations with believers of various sorts and have never been impressed by their position or reasoning. They dont strike me as admirable people.
Just a comment about drugs. I've done psilocybin and tried LSD once. Drug experiences can be interesting, but one has to keep in mind that they are the product of chemical imbalances. The expereince can get very bad very has (never happened to me, luckily) and too much can have permanent negative effects, like destructive religious mania.
Just ask Peter Green...
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/peter.htm
"It would appear that the mind-altering
Peter Green with Splinter, North Bucks Blues and Folk Festival at Padbury, August, 1996; Photo compliments of Steve Fairhead
Peter Green & The Splinter Group, 1996
Photo © Steve Fairhead
substances that Peter used in his days with Fleetwood Mac have left permanent marks on his psyche. Green himself admits, "I took one too many LSD trips. And that puts me in the Care and Attention category." He spends much of his time watching television and going for walks, and also attends a day center. He "hardly ever touches" the guitar-- "I'm on some medication-- I don't know what it is-- but it makes it hard to concentrate. I rarely feel like playing."
When I was a child in parochial school, I was told that "losing my Faith" would be the greatest of catastrophes. As an adult, approaching the end of life, I can see with great clarity that that loss has been the greatest of blessings. Organized religion is, at best a crutch, a cop-out, a way to avoid taking responsibility. At worst, as we can see in our current national life, organized religion is an evil, setting human against human or justifying vile acts in the name of a god. What is ethical, what is correct behavior, needs to be gauged by its effects on other humans, not by the precepts of an inconsistent holy book that does contain great wisdom (as does the Koran or ancent vedic writings) but that, incidentally, condones genocide, slavery, rape and other evils. How much sadness in the world has been caused by the Bible and the Koran, and other dogmatic religious writings. Is there a god? I'm not presumptious enough to claim to know the answer, and I certainly would not claim that god in any form talks to me as a personal savior. My spiritual experiences? I have a constant sense of wonder at the glories of an evolved Nature. I feel the collective strength of fellow humans at an AA meeting. I share in the successes and failures of my son and my daughter.
I realised when I was about four years old that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and ""God"" did not really exist. Regardless, it took years of education to eradicate the idea of ""god"" and to replace it with a scientific comprehension of the greater Universe...thanks to people like Carl Sagan. Fortunately the Natural Universe does not need a mythical god...it is a miricle in and of itself...just as much as its creation of life on earth is miraculous. The thing is that the Natural Universe does not need to be prayed to...nor does it require priests to be intermediaries to interpret it. That it spawned us and supports us is enough.
None, zero, nada.
I've always believed in a God, but also wondered if I would ever have any "proof" of God's presence (the kind that most people want to see - that which lies outside of the ordinary). Though it has come to me rarely (on only 2 occasions), I eventually did have what would be considered this type of proof. On one occasion, that which I consider to be a holy presence (because of the power and feeling that entered my presence) spoke directly to my heart with actually words, as if my heart had ears of it's own. It was actually more like words being laid gently on the surface of my heart. This presence only said one sentence in this experience, and it WASN'T any extraordinary revelation such as "the world will end soon" or something like that. I keep to myself what the message was, mostly because it was of a personal nature, but to this day (nearly 3 years later) I still haven't reached a conclusion about why this presence said to me what it did. I think I will know eventually, but at least for now, I'm left with only the proof that there is Someone out there paying attention to what's going on in my life.
Hope this helps with some of you out there who might wonder.
For many years I had convinced myself (and those who would listen) that I trusted in God for my life. My stories would be those of unbelievable circumstances and coincidences. Although I have been a professing "Christian" for much of my life, I have been experiencing serious doubt whether or not it was in fact God who has had His hand on my life.
I hate the fact that I am finally admitting to myself that I am at a point in my life where I might be a person without faith. Prayers, in my estimation, have gone unanswered. Not that I havent been getting what I pray for but also that, if the answer to prayer is "no" I feel left without reason.
I'm hoping that this is only another "test" of my faith. One that will make me more a witness than before. I desperatly want to have hope for His plans for my life, here on earth and for eternity.
My most formative religious experience came when I was 16 and was dating the daughter of a Pentecostal preacher. I was raised Baptist but believed that religious bigotry was a great sin that Christians should resist. I accepted this girl as a Christian even though she was not Baptist. We got along ok until her religious indoctrination forced her to conclude that non-Pentecostals (including me) are not really Christians. Unfortunately, she never told me that she felt this way; instead over a period of weeks she did everything she could to seduce me into converting. When she eventually concluded that I was not going to convert, she immediately changed from the warm, compassionate person that I had known into this mean and hostile person. I tried to ask her why she had treated me like she did, but she no longer would communicate and simply ignored me. I became a non-person. As a result, I fell into depression for about ten years and was unable form another relationship with a girl. It was only after I began dating my future wife at age 27 that I recovered from the depression and realized that not all Christian girls are opportunistic, religious bigots. We have been happily married for 20 years. I look back on that earlier experience with sadness because it was never supposed to happen and it profoundly and negatively affected the course of my life.
To answer the posted question and not to convince anyone else of my belief or as some love to claim, non-belief, I would say my most formative experience was during my wifes terminal illness and subsequent death.
Why? Because of the spiritual experiences we shared during her illness. Our own Christian beliefs were strengthened through the ordeal as we knew God didn't cause the illness. He spoke to us in his way through several miraculous experiences. I now have no doubt that she is in bliss right now.
My religious experience was figuring out that the whole thing is a crock. I went through a vicious custody battle with my ex in-laws who tried to take my daughter away based on my religious beliefs. At the time I was a member of a methodist church and I had to call my pastor to my defense. I recorded my ex wife telling me I was possessed and that her father, who was a preacher could perform exorcism on me and get rid of my demons. This from a girl who had a cocain addiction and an abortion and was gay to boot.
Her parents had filled out house with Noah's Ark pictures. Needless to say, I destroyed all that stuff and took her rantings to court and presented it to the judge. These people had not paid taxes in years because her dad was a preacher. I got what I wanted legally and spent the next ten years trying to deprogram my daughter from believing in the rapture and that everything was evil.
Then 9/11 happened, flying planes into buildings in the name of God and that pretty much did it for me. Religion is harmful and dangerous. I see no good in it what so ever. At best it's silly and at worst people kill each other for it. Not to mention the attacks on scientific research and progress.
There is NO God and this life is it folks. Read Mark Twain, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin etc. People with a brain who aren't afraid to think.
My most formative religious experience was nine years ago. My twin daughters were born premature after seven years of infertility treatments. The year before they were born we had a stillborn little girl who was due on March 6. On her due date, we did another invitro procedure which resulted in the pregnancy of our twins. Anyone who has been through infertility treatments knows you don't plan these dates in advance, it is a day by day procedure. The following January we had the twins baptised Note, this is January in the Midwest. It was a RARE beautiful January day and there was one window opened in the Chapel. The amazing part, during their baptism, a white butterfly flew in the window. Everyone in attendence watched this butterfly in amazement, it was incredible in the middle of winter !
Raised as a Lutheran in a religious household, my most formative experience was realizing that all religions are essentially the same: a collection of fairy tales, fables, and myths. Some people use these to inspire better lives and others use them to excuse some of the worst human behavior ever seen. I vastly prefer a life of natuaral explanations over magic or miracles, science over faith, and have become a better person overall because of it.
I never felt spiritual or any other connection to church as I was growing up, even though my parents were very involved with the church. Though I found it interesting from a sociological/historical point of view. When I was 10 years old my parents decided I was old enough to attend church (I had previously attended Sunday School only) and the first couple of times I went I was fascinated by the ritual, but it soon became dreary.
As I grew up I learned of various other religious beliefs that mankind has held through the ages, most of which are regarded by the religions of today as obviously phoney and false. Yet I could see no difference between those religions and any of the ones around today. They were all silly in the same ways, based on a belief in magic and some real eyebrow-raising explanations of how the heavens and the earth came to be, though it's all fascinating and entertaining as long as you don't believe it. "It's magic" is not an explanation for something. It may be amazing but it was still done somehow, and in a way that can be examined, understood, and duplicated. A magician seems to do amazing things...that is, until you find out how the trick works, and it's disappointingly simple and obvious. Anyway it became clear to me, even as a kid, that believing in religion was like an adult believing with all his heart there's a Santa Claus and an Easter Bunny. (though admittedly there is considerable circumstantial evidence Santa and the Bunny are real!). I'm not 5. It would be embarrassing to say I believed in a religion. Or that I believe there are gnomes living in my garden.
Finally it occured to me: God has nothing to do with religion. Religion, all religions without exception, were made up by man in an attempt to understand and define God. To understand who we are, and to try to figure out what God wants, so when we give it to him he'll give us what we want: burn an ox on an alter and we'll have a good harvest. Pray earnestly and you'll get that promotion, etc. It gives people a sense of control, that if they really make an effort an all-powerful being will intercede on their behalf. It's comforting to believe there's a lifeline, it doesn't matter if there isn't.
So religion is not sacred, it's just a lot of empty ritual that helps people get through life and deal with reality. There may be some benefit to that. Having a couple of drinks after a hard day is the same thing after all. But I don't pray to the bartender, nor do I ritualistically drink my margarita with a choir droning in the background. That would be religion, and that would be silly!
Mine was my education. I firmly beleive that man creaded god, all gods that have been used through history in our image. These gods get angery, they can punish and reward based upon our deeds.
Man needs answers to our basic questions, why are we here, who put us here and where do we gowhen we die. Where, meaning also there must be an extension on my life ehen I die, I can't fathom there being nothing.
Now that we have created a god(s) the smarter people see a use, to control people for their gain.
Why if a god were real not show to us the proof that there really is a god?
And on it goes.
It is often said that if there were no god,man would have to create one. If not for this instinctive drive to find our maker ,I doubt that man would still exist. That does not necessarily mean that there really is a god.
As a teenager religion tour my family apart.
At the age of 16 my mother through me out of the house when I decided her faith was not of my interest.Up until that point I gave 100% to the religion.Giving talks,preaching,and attending meetings 3 times a week.
She refused to speak to me for the next 5 years And up to today,21 years later we only talk twice a year.She has seen her grandchildren 2 times in the last 3 years,she lives 20 min. away.
My sister at the age of 21 decided the same as me.My mother has not spoken to her since,13 years later.
When I was making my decision I had to attend private counseling through the religion where I was read scriptures to show where I was headed .When this was not effective they turned to other tactics;belittling,accusing & threating.When this did not work(I was stronger minded then they thought)they turned the masses against me.Childhood friends were no longer allowed to speak to me....kids I grew up with.Well I made new friends so eventually they announced my name off in front of the congregation as bad association.All in the name of god.
I was willing to accept my mothers decision without judgement but my decision was of no regard.Doesnt it make it easier to forget about the wrong things you are doing or have done when you are so busy pointing at others.
Religion can be manipulitive & controling ,preying on the week.It was meant to strengthen a family not destroy it.I have spoken to many with the same experiences.
I understand that some people need religion.Some people are followers and need to be led.It does work for some.
What it comes down to is god is in your heart.God knows how you feel and I do not need a middleman to help me out with this.
On a more positive note it brought me my sister & father closer together.....Thanks religion.....
As a teenager religion tour my family apart.
At the age of 16 my mother through me out of the house when I decided her faith was not of my interest.Up until that point I gave 100% to the religion.Giving talks,preaching,and attending meetings 3 times a week.
She refused to speak to me for the next 5 years And up to today,21 years later we only talk twice a year.She has seen her grandchildren 2 times in the last 3 years,she lives 20 min. away.
My sister at the age of 21 decided the same as me.My mother has not spoken to her since,13 years later.
When I was making my decision I had to attend private counseling through the religion where I was read scriptures to show where I was headed .When this was not effective they turned to other tactics;belittling,accusing & threating.When this did not work(I was stronger minded then they thought)they turned the masses against me.Childhood friends were no longer allowed to speak to me....kids I grew up with.Well I made new friends so eventually they announced my name off in front of the congregation as bad association.All in the name of god.
I was willing to accept my mothers decision without judgement but my decision was of no regard.Doesnt it make it easier to forget about the wrong things you are doing or have done when you are so busy pointing at others.
Religion can be manipulitive & controling ,preying on the week.It was meant to strengthen a family not destroy it.I have spoken to many with the same experiences.
I understand that some people need religion.Some people are followers and need to be led.It does work for some.
What it comes down to is god is in your heart.God knows how you feel and I do not need a middleman to help me out with this.
On a more positive note it brought me my sister & father closer together.....Thanks religion.....
I grew up with one parent a devout Catholic and one a Presbyterian and saw nothing but extreme division between the two. We kids were brought up Catholic, which just made the issue that much worse. The harder one parent fought for control the harder the other parent fought. Back in those days people did not divorce, especially Catholics.
My priest was fire and brimstone and all Catholic children in the parish of this small community (500) were not allowed to commingle with Lutheran or Presbyterian children during their religious activities (hayrides and so on) without threat of going to hell. Thus, all I saw from religion(s) growing up was hatred. By the time I was 12 I started questioning the existence of a god and was punished every time I questioned. By the time I was 18 and left home I was finally able to reject Catholicism and all religion completely and still do to this day. And all I see today is mostly hatred from religions of the world....the more things change the more things stay the same.
Growing up a Christian, I had always had a lot of questions that no one seemed to be able to answer, or the answers didn't seem quite right. I often asked what is the fate of all the people who lived before Christianity, or if someone were to grow up in a totally remote area and never have exposure to the Christian God - would they go to heaven, and if so, why do they get a free pass? I found as I grew older, I seemed to have more questions without answers and "God's will" or "We don't know God's plan" just didn't seem to cut it anymore.
My most religious experience came in a Geology class when we were studying the history of the Earth and its animal and plant history. We had learned about the fossil record, and moved on to evolution (I had always been a skeptic, being a Christian). And one day it all clicked, I don't know how - but the culmination of plate tectonics, fossil records, carbon dating, but most importantly the history of the earth - that we are a mere blip on the timeline of the Earth, and everything added up - and the signs didn't point to a master creator God, evolution made sense - science gave me answers to the questions I had been yearning for, for so long. I was scared at first and felt very alone - that it was only me on this big planet, alone in the universe. But since that time, I've learned more and more about the history of the Earth and evolution, and I become a more ardent supporter of it with every passing day and book I read.
THE THOUGHT THAT COMES TO MIND WHEN I THINK ABOUT RELIGION IS HOW IT TAKES A TRAGEDY OR MISHAP TO BRING OUT THE RELIGIOIN IN EVERYONE. PEOPLE BECOME BORN AGAIN, OR FIND RELIGION. AS FOR MYSELF I ALSO TURN TO GOD WHEN IN NEED, IN VIET-NAM I ASKED FOR HELP IN GETTING OUT OF A DEATHLY SITUATION ONE WHICH I SAW MY PAST GO BY IN MY MIND, AS WE WAITED FOR HELP, STRANGE BUT TRUE. I RESPECT ALL OF MANKINDS BELIEFS AT LEAST IT GIVES COMFORT TO THE SITUATION. IF YOU DON'T BELIVE TRY IT, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT. ITS A HIGH YOU GET FOR FREE...
The most formative religious experience anyone can have is to break the shackles of geographically determined, cultural coercion that is organized religion. Only when you can acknowledge that which obviously cannot be known and recognize that all religions are clearly man-made, can you begin to revel in the basic truth of existence. As best we can tell, it ain't pretty, but it can be wonderful. Certainly the natural world is a wonder to behold, even if humans are mostly reprehensible. (Incidentally, every organized religion agrees that humans are not to be trusted!!)Is a god possible, even if not loving, moralistic, offering afterlife? Of course,but very unlikely. But the majesty of the universe and the possibility that it simply "is" is enough for me. That is a revelation of truth and freedom.
What is this doing in a Newsweek / Washington Post website?
If I wanted to use the web for religious experiences, there are other site for that.
J, no one is making you read this. If you don't like it go somewhere else...
I am grateful to God for His salvation through Jesus Christ. He has led me all the way, and I hope that others find Jesus through His word and the testimony of other Christians. Thank you for the opportunity and freedom to say this.
I also had a problem with the hatred and intolerance of religions, both for mankind in general and for other religions as well. But while it is true that religion has caused much pain and suffering in the world, if we didn't fight each other over religious beliefs we'd find something else to fight about. It is unfortunately man's nature, and is a part of ourselves that we must continually struggle to control. Religion is rarely of help in that respect.
Formative Religious Experience?
Yeah, you could say that...
In 1983 I was 35 years old and living in Memphis, Tennessee with my wife, Barbara and five year old daughter Amanda.
One night I was laying in bed, reading myself to sleep while “the girls” watched television in the front room. I was beginning to doze off when a voice said to me, “Bill needs you.” Nothing like this had ever happened to me before, ever. I looked around the room expecting to find an intruder, but there was no one there. I rationalized that I had dropped off to sleep momentarily and that I had dreamed about hearing the voice. I went back to my reading. The voice came again, this time much louder, “BILL NEEDS YOU!”.
I jumped out of the bed, hurriedly dressed and headed for my vehicle, a conversion van. As I went through the living room, Barbara asked (of course), “What are you doing?”. I told her I had to go to the hospital to see Bill and I would call her shortly.
Bill Ellis (who has since passed on) and I were trying to launch a new business having to do with fine art and antiques. It was the type of business that just needed to evolve naturally as it was somewhat ahead of its time. I had not spoken to Bill for about six months as we both pursued our own livelihoods. One day, I thought of him and picked up the phone and asked him how he was. His reply was that, “Well, we were very worried for a time, but Martha (his wife) had been operated on and the doctors said they got all of it and that she has been prescribed a regimen of radiation and chemotherapy. Things are looking up.” I told her that I had no knowledge of Martha’s condition and he explained that she had been diagnosed with stomach cancer, that she was in the hospital. He named the hospital.
So I was on my way to the hospital, late at night. I sensed the urgency of the situation and busted every speed limit and traffic light on the way. Fortunately, there were few vehicles on the street.
I parked the van hurriedly and headed off towards the entrance to the hospital when I saw Bill and two other people standing with him on the sidewalk outside the building. When I rushed up to him, he said, “Howard, what are you doing here?” I said, “Never mind that. I’ll tell you later. How’s Martha?” He replied, “Martha just passed away about thirty minutes ago.”
On the way to his house where I left him after word went out and his and Martha’s circle of friends began to pour in, I told him that God had sent me to comfort him, that He told me that Bill needed me. The encouragement that he
experienced when I related my story of how I came to be at the hospital was dramatic. The message was clear and undeniable that his (and my) God cared enough to send someone running (literally) to comfort him in his time of need. It was interesting to note later that the voice said "Bill needs you". Had I been working from my natural man and thinking about the Ellis's it would have been
natural to assume that if either of the two needed me it was Martha. God knew better.
Thus began a series of supernatural events that continue till this day. The next would come within a month and would eclipse Bill’s need of comforting.
I came in from work one day and headed to the shower to get cleaned up for dinner. As I was showering, “the voice” spoke again. Loudly. “Check Amanda!”
The voice spoke with such urgency that I knew I didn’t have time to dry off and run to where Amanda was playing outside, so I started to beat on the tile wall of the shower as hard as I could to attract Barbara’s attention. I have related this whole series of events to many people with Barbara and Amanda in the room. We all agree as to what took place perfectly, except the moment when Barbara ran to see why I was beating on the wall. She remembers her response as, “What is it, dear? I’m cooking supper.” I remember it as “WHAT do you WANT? I’m TRYING to cook supper!!” At any rate… I said, “When’s the last time you checked Amanda??” She replied, “Just a few minutes ago. Why?” I said, “Check her AGAIN! RIGHT NOW.”
Barbara picked up the urgency in my voice and ran for the door.
We lived in a nice subdivision, paved streets, sidewalks, street light. All the lawns were manicured. The original “Pleasant Valley.” The kitchen was on the front of our house and a window over the sink allowed Barbara to keep an eye on Amanda as she played outside. As it happened, when I pulled my van into the driveway, it blocked off a field of her vision. When she went tearing out the back door and around my van, she saw a red Camaro, black top. The drive, a thirtyish white male was out of the driver’s side with his door left open. He was around on the other side of the car with the passenger door open and trying to force Amanda into the car. Barbara made the appropriate scream for help and the driver lost heart, released Amanda, jumped back in his car and took off.
With the wisdom born of retrospect, what is amazing about this series of events was this: I am convinced that had I not experienced the “Bill Event” before the “Amanda Event”, I would have hesitated, tried to work out the meaning of “The Voice” and Amanda would have suffered because of it. As it happened, I KNEW the voice and KNEW to act on it. Immediately.
How do I know that this was the voice of God, the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible? The same way I "knew" to act. Never doubted since... Ever.
People usually make fun of, are sarced of, or have your attitude on things they simply do not understand. I'm sorry you don't understand the full meaning of the Eucharist. I converted to the Catholic faith many years ago just because of the sacraments - the Eucharist, of course, being one of them. Its also sad you use the terminology "sillier and sillier".....how and who do you pattern your life after? What are your "non silly" choices in life. I'll put you on a prayer chain...like all of us - you need it.
Addendum:
Today, at 57, I still see incredible hypocrisy from the religious, especially Christians (probably because they are the majority and don't let us forget it).
I live my life treating people the way I would like people to treat me. Unfortunately, Christians feel a need to ridicule me for not believing as they or feeling sorry for me. In most cases they only want to preach to me, they do not want to listen to what I have to say or how I feel and see the world. What are they frightened of? If I die and am a good person and help my fellow citizen HOW could a caring God banish me to Hell, just because I do not fall to my knees and swear alleigance? If he would, how does that make this God a caring loving God?
If that is the case, and only fundamentalist Christians can get into that heaven, then I wouldn't want to go there anyway! If that is their idea of a God, then their God is mean spirted and very shallow.
Christians say it is better to believe than not to believe and I say why? I am not afraid of dying and am perfectly willing to wait until I die to see what happens after death, if anything. Perhaps, it is as I truly think, when you die you die, just what the priest taught many years ago when I asked "what happens to animals when they die?" After all, we are just higher on the evolutionary chain than the rest of the animals aren't we.
I believe that concept is what frightens Christians about evolution. We are just another animal on the food chain...
I also am amazed at Christians when they ask me, "What would you do if God appeared today?" I tell them that that would be pretty good proof wouldn't it. Then I ask them, "What would you do if it were proven today that there were no God?" They all tell me they would have nothing to live for, life would have no meaning.
How sad....Who really is living in a very tiny soundproof room with no windows and no doors?
Myself, I think I will go to the Rainbow Bridge where all pets go when they die. They no longer hurt and play forever. When you cross the Bridge, they know you are there and come to greet you. NOW that would be heaven...
Very good post. I have a friend that told me many years ago, God is always talking to us, we just need to be aware and listen - just like you have been doing. I hope many read your post, open their hearts and listen. I don't know if you've ever taken a good look at the print of Jesus at the door knocking...the door is symbolic of our heart. If you take a close look at the door, there is no latch - that's also symbolic - the door/heart has to be opened from the inside/within. Keep listening, Rick, you give a great witness of keeping the door open.
I had an epiphany when I was in seminary that hit me clear as a bell during meditation. The seperation between Humanity and God exists only in the minds of Humanity. God does not experience the seperation, only Oneness. This is the experience that has brought me the most understanding and peace.
Faith: an insidious mixture of insanity and ignorance-believing something you know aint so.
My bigggest exp: 9/11 and reading the bi-bull!
Like Pat Roberts I too had a prediction from God...it is
….In the new beginning is the word….
Until the Jews admit they are not the only Chosen People…
Until the Christians admit that Jesus is but a Prophet…
Until the Muslims admit there are no Virgins in Heaven…
Until President Bush admits that war on Iraq was Revenge for his father…
There Will be no Peace on Earth
My most formative religious experience would have to be as a 15 y.o. boy on tour with a singing group sponsored by the Southern Baptist Church. We sang in a dozen towns and in about half of them, I was seduced, felt up, or at least hit on by an older man: a preacher, a music director, a youth director. I learned two things: christianity is NOT what is being taught there, and churches are great places for young gay men to get laid.
I CONVERTED AND BECAME A CATHOLIC THREE YEARS AGO. MY WIFE WAS METHODIST AND I WAS LUTHERAN (ELCA). WE HAVE A 9 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WHO WAS ATTENDING ST AGNES CATHOLIC SCHOOL AND AFTER MUCH DISCUSSION, WE DECIDED TO JOIN THE CHURCH. WE HAVE MET MANY, MANY NEW FRIENDS AND OUR PRIEST IS SECOND TO NONE. YES, THERE HAVE BEEN PROBLEMS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT LET'S LOOK BEYOND AND TRY TO STRUCTURE A FUTURE.
MY PARENTS WOULD NEVER ALLOWED ME TO JOIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, EVEN THOUGH MOST OF MY FRIENDS GROWING UP WERE CATHOLIC. I ONLY WISH WE WOULD HAVE JOINED 20 YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE MARRIED. BUT LET ASSURE YOU THAT JOINING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS BEEN THE BEST AND MOST EXCITING THING IN MY LIFE. (NEXT TO MARRYING MY WIFE AND HAVING OUR CHILDRED) I HOPE OTHERS CAN REFLECT WITH SUCH AWESOME EXCITEMENT AND STRENGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your life of Good Works, Good Deeds, Church Membership will not earn you favor with God!! There is only one way into Heaven!!
Believing (Taking God at his word) the Gospel ofGrace...
That...
The Lor Jesus Died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.
Simply believing this gospel with all of your heart wil give you entry into eaven and God's presence....
God Bless....
My most profound religious experience was in "thinking." If you choose to look past blind faith and actually think about religion and the Bible, it's impossible to accept the inconsistencies, the outlandish claims, etc. It has to involve blind faith because there's little to no proof of the things claimed in the Bible. And the proof I offer for not believing in a god is turn the TV news on for 5 minutes. Simple but true. During the 1990's I became more Christian than I had ever been in my life; going to my Baptist church 3X per week and including God in everything. Even thinking coincidental incidences were actually answers to prayers. But I can't reconcile thinking with faith anymore. There were no answers to prayers, just normal coincidences. The bad part is losing the security blanket but the good part is finally believing in things that actually make sense.
The question put before us is have we ever had a religious experiance. You wouldn't know that by the flood of negative responses, by worldly people.
Thomas was also recorded as not having faith to believe in Jesus's resurection unless he saw for himself and put his fingers into his wounds.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
There is not enough room nor time here to tell you of a lifetime of experiancing God in my life. Let me say that He, being the Holy Spirit, bears witness of himself. If you have that Spirit in you you understand what I say. If not you are lost in a dark world of unenlightened unfulfilled living.
Those among you who wait for a sign, are not the first either. Many scoffed the Christ himself. We should expect no different treatment.
If you are looking for a religious experiance,first look for a personal relationship with God the Father,through his Son Jesus the Christ. Many many experiances will follow,and as you mature as a child of God, you will experiance life and all that it has to offer. Both good and bad.However you will see it through different eyes and be carried through many of lifes storms with a companion who will never desert you nor leave you.
Have I had a religious experiance? Yes I have experianced the pressense of God through all of my trials and tribulations. Through the death of loved ones and the blessed hope of seeing them again.
The world hated Jesus when he came and he warned us that the world would hate us as well. But he prayed for me back there 2,000 years ago when he ask his Father to forgive them, and I pray for all you now who still do not know what you are doing.
When I was five, I decided I wanted to be a Christian for two reasons: (1) so I could drink the grape juice and eat the little cracker used in communion; and (2) so I could get baptized in the water in the baptistry in the church sanctuary. So I became a Christian. There was something profound about that though, because the symbols were shadows of what I really wanted - to take Christ Himself into me, to be immersed into His identity and find the real me that wasn't bound by the age-old trappings of this tired old world. When I knelt down with my mother and told God I wanted to become a Christian and allow His life to be inside me (all so I could get juice, a cracker, and dunked in the water), it was more profound than I realized.
I lived in the years of the Nation of Islam in the 1960's and 70's. The education and discipline was great and helped groom me as a responsible man. As a muslim today, America is very discrimminating towards Islam. It is a shame that the religion of peace, responsibility and prosperity is attacked by the government and media that claims to be the land of opportunity. I have much inner peace and personal strength as a muslim in Islam. A muslim is a person who submits to the creator's will. The action of submission is called Islam. Now what is wrong with that?
I personally liked Bonnie Raitt's statement a couple months back in an article:
"Religion is for people who are scared of Hell. Spirituality is for people who've already been there."
According to the Mayan long count calendar, we are allegedly going to end this period on Dec. 21, 2012. After which, the next cycle is one where "the word of the gods is quieted, and man rises to unify for the greater good".. Sounds like a fine time, too, as it seems 90% of the wars and global conflict seem to have religious origin.
My beliefs aren't conventional, it would seem, but I have a hard time believing that if there is a God, it has any concern over what nickname we're calling it. The most important parts of the rulebooks seem to remain the same : treat each other with respect, and do the best you can to leave this place better than when you've started.
We are failing. And the use of a "higher power" to instigate or defend reasons of war,murder, and displacement is from what I remember a direct contradiction to what the fundamentals of Christianity are all about. But I guess that's what happens when a religion goes through different cultures, translations, and interpretations over the course of 2000 + years. If there was a Christ, an Allah, a Buddha, they would more than likely be saddened by what their helper monkeys have and haven't done in their respective names.
It is time to celebrate the similarities of faith, and respect them equally. No one has a monopoly on the afterlife, and no one knows what's next. Faith is the vehicle to get to where you think you're going next. And seeing as we're gonna run out of natural resources by 2050 on this planet, if we don't get it together, it's going to be over pretty darn quick.
My most formative experience was learning to open my mind to the aspect of an 'entity' that includes all faiths in a community of people...not religions.
Learning to stop believing isolationistic thinking and One Way propaganda relieved me of the pride and derision with regard to other faiths.
I realized relgion is just another culture/power war that has little or nothing to do with god...any god.
I have discovered in other words the difference between religion and spirituality and the differences are vast.
Peace
Raised a Methodist I remember watching people in church and thinking how incredible it was they believed what was said. They sure didn't live what they preached.
The next assault on Christianity was my experiences with lsd.
My current beliefs on mans origins and the history of god in culture are formed from reading the books of Zecariah Sitchin: man was created by beings from another planet as servants. We were genticaly programed to believe in a "deity".
I now view christainity as superstitous bigotry.
Raised a Methodist I remember watching people in church and thinking how incredible it was they believed what was said. They sure didn't live what they preached.
The next assault on Christianity was my experiences with lsd.
My current beliefs on mans origins and the history of god in culture are formed from reading the books of Zecariah Sitchin: man was created by beings from another planet as servants. We were genticaly programed to believe in a "deity".
I now view christainity as superstitous bigotry.
Raised a Methodist I remember watching people in church and thinking how incredible it was they believed what was said. They sure didn't live what they preached.
The next assault on Christianity was my experiences with lsd.
My current beliefs on mans origins and the history of god in culture are formed from reading the books of Zecariah Sitchin: man was created by beings from another planet as servants. We were genticaly programed to believe in a "deity".
I now view christainity as superstitous bigotry.
I lived in the years of the Nation of Islam in the 1960's and 70's. The education and discipline was great and helped groom me as a responsible man. As a muslim today, America is very discrimminating towards Islam. It is a shame that the religion of peace, responsibility and prosperity is attacked by the government and media that claims to be the land of opportunity. I have much inner peace and personal strength as a muslim in Islam. A muslim is a person who submits to the creator's will. The action of submission is called Islam. Now what is wrong with that?
It's interesting that people who are religious claim to be living "in the light" and that those who do not accept religious belief are in the dark. Curious, for as someone who regards religion as phoney, I view religious people as brainwashed, dupes, and myself as free and alive.
I guess that means I'm no better than the religious, though I bet they would never admit they're no better than me.
And on another note, most religions and their beliefs are harmless enough. It's only when religion hurts others than I have a problem with it. Negative actions can and do come from any religion and that is something we must always guard against
My most significant "religious" experience occured when I began to realize that "religion" lies about History - that The Bible Stories were fiction-fantasies that accurate History does not support; that Archaeology and Science have proved "all of it" to be fake - from the virgin birth to that non-existant "tomb" under the Church of The Holy Sepulchre; that Christianity is a religion of death (necrophilia) - not LIFE; that religion was not a beneficial, but a detrimental force; that religion was monarchial, not democratic; that religion was a man-made power-trip, not some fairy-tale nonsense about "Gentle Jesus" - that Judeo-Chrsitianity & Muslimity were homophobic, gynephobic, agoraphobic and racist-fascist-intolerant to their roots. In examing the 4-5 basic tenets of Christianity - I found that only morons could believe in any of them - and I reversed the brainwashing and became FREE! Rational. Reasonable. A thinking human being - not one of god's "sheep."
Physical environment--hierarchy appearance,--arranged through predator-prey inter-relationship,--intermittent deleterious events, that overpower and bring things to an end.
Social environment--master-slave affair; gods, with one given ultimate power; murder, wars; guidance toward social status; power relative to material strength and wealth.
The social environment formed by mankind reflects activity of the physical environment;--is a product of physiologic adaptation.
Human direction--satisfaction of needs for equality, truths, freedom, peace, love, personal worth, everlasting life---happiness,--JUSTICE!
These ideals are not products of physiologic adaptation. Have composed an energy aptly called the 'human spirit';--are pure personal conscious realizations! Moved us toward social and environmental compatibility. Revealed physical principles necessary to ease suffering caused by physical events; as disease, injury or meteorological changes.
Everything in the human mind has a REAL source!
American difference: personal freedom from religious and social government oppression.
These ideals flowed from the inside-out; from the heart of the people!
A people who sought guidance from a God of LOVE!
I have never posted a comment on this site! Why was my first one rejected?
My most significant "religious" experience occured when I began to realize that "religion" lies about History - that The Bible Stories were fiction-fantasies that accurate History does not support; that Archaeology and Science have proved "all of it" to be fake - from the virgin birth to that non-existant "tomb" under the Church of The Holy Sepulchre; that Christianity is a religion of death (necrophilia) - not LIFE; that religion was not a beneficial, but a detrimental force; that religion was monarchial, not democratic; that religion was a man-made power-trip, not some fairy-tale nonsense about "Gentle Jesus" - that Judeo-Chrsitianity & Muslimity were homophobic, gynephobic, agoraphobic and racist-fascist-intolerant to their roots. In examing the 4-5 basic tenets of Christianity - I found that only morons could believe in any of them - and I reversed the brainwashing and became FREE! Rational. Reasonable. A thinking human being - not one of god's "sheep."
As a Christian and a gay man, my most formative religious experience was...oh wait, I'm gay...I'm not allowed to be a Christian. God bless all of you divorcees, adulterers, Republicans, materialists and gluttons though.
I'm proud to be an atheist. Get over it - no gods out there - certaintly not the four or five (Protestant) to several hundred (Catholic) of Christianity - not counting a zillion demi-god creature like demons.
Religion gives some people the excuse to rape the planet, subjugate other species, and kill others over trivial differences in mythologies.
To Realist from Daniel. Thanks for kind words! My lungs are fine now--just pushed them too hard before my cold was really over and started coughing. And no I would not recommend you take LSD. Much work needs to go into determining relationship between genetics, proper time in life, environmental influences, etc.
To hermit from Daniel. I know what you mean about Peter Green--terrific guitarist and singer. I wish those other two guitarists had never been in the Mac (the two during Green era). The other two guitarists were really not up to par. Green was fabulous. From what I understand about Green, someone slipped him acid in Munich and there is a tape of him playing, and by all accounts (not least himself) it was super, but the trip affected him badly. I wonder about his background and genetics though: he seems not to have been as flexible guitar or music-wise as the Beatles and Hendrix and he was all hung-up on his Jewish background. I think he was just not up to processing the acid. Just look at what happened with the Beatles and Hendrix on acid: Revolver, Sgt. Pepper, Are you experienced...Green seemed more stuck in the blues and unable to allow himself to be transformed to a more psychedelic outlook. I really think personality has much to do with it. You had better be willing to change.
But to say again, it is not for everyone. Much work has to go into calibrating relationship between drug and person. Perhaps like any medicine really....
I can't think of "one defining moment" in the way of a spiritual experience. At 15 years of age I asked Jesus Christ to take over my life. I'm 65 now and I have found that it was the best and most important decission of my life. The journey has been a growing experience that has increased my faith in Him, brought me peace of mind and blessings that I had never dreamed of. I have read the Bible many times and still find new things as I continue to read it. I'm blessed and grateful for my family, friends and a church that supports and loves people.
The "panel" consists of four religious guys - that sure represents the setup for a fair discussion :) You guys are FUNNY!
The same simple mechanism of declaring an ideology the ultimate truth and condemning everyone who doesn't follow was used by the nazis, and it works every time and everywhere.
In my opinion the only reason why there are religions is that we know that we will die, and it certainly is a frightful thought. Some can deal with it, some make up stories that others liked, keep them tame with rules and threats and presto - a religion.
I don't know if there is a god or not - which is why I consider myself agnostic, not atheist, as saying there isn't a god is just a unprovable and silly as to say there is. What I do know is that there always is a big mass of people who like to be led, and there will always be a few to use and abuse that.
I'm still waiting for the bolt to come down on me from heaven. Never happened, very unlikely to ever happen. Way more people got and still do get murdered by religious people than by non-believers - THAT should have your attention for a change.
If there actually is a god up there then all I would like to shout up is that he/she/it obviously doesn't control the show down here.
being born in the oldest mountain range on Earth, in the year of a comet, I always knew more than I should have, according to some. My religious experience started at a very young age. My Grandfather was a Methodist minister (was US Army Chaplin during the Johnson admin.) and during those early years I was always frustrated by what I saw as the typical "hypocrisy" of day to day life. I knew that we have a living, creative spirit (called God or Allah or Great Spirit etc..) and that this living precense was deeply connected to me (and all of us) on a personal, internal, level. The idea that we needed to connect to a greater being through another being seemed foreign to me. I spent many years studying various religious traditions (what I call Legacy religions) and most of them seemed to be more like socio-political power structures (mainly Patriarchal in nature) than like any real path to individual enlightenment. The "Promise" of life after death, or life eternal is common among most of these ideologies, and many tend to demean the status of life on Earth as somehow "probationary" or less valuable than the promise of the life to come as it were. It wasn't until I was much older that I had what I would call my real moment, or conversion. I had read a poem in my old family cabin written by my Grandfather. While thinking about the meaning, I had a real “vision” and this idea came to me. I always felt that “prayer” or meditation was critically important to our connection with the divine creators spirit and I always wondered why I didn't get regular conversational type response from “GOD” during prayer...as if “he” or Father could hear me. I could never really be sure if I heard “him”. I understood the concept of the still small voice, and the inner guidance, and feelings of peace (the Holy Spirit or Shekanah) but I really wondered why couldn't I just talk to Jesus..or Mohamed or GOD for that matter...if life is Eternal, and we are communicating on a non linear, metaphysical plain...why did it feel so “one way” or half duplex?
The vision I had was of the Sun rolling over the horizon, or actually just before it did that, and from my vantage point, I could see this happening somehow...I saw myself in bed and as the Sun was just passing Azimuth I started praying. I saw this powerful energy (not sure how to describe that other than things glowed) and in an instant I was in the presence of GOD (and it wasn't like one old man with a white beard...it was like a huge gathering of people, men and women of all colors and with all colors of light and energy and it was incredible.) This “crowd' seemed to be conscious of me and I of each and every one of them as a group, but also as individuals. It was in this moment of awareness that I knew the answer. I knew the truth. I understood that what I ... no, what we had been growing toward through all of our history, our Legacy beliefs, understandings, and misunderstandings was here in this instant. Start each day with a prayer BEFORE you leave your bed. This is an evolutionary step for our species. By doing this first thing each day, you put your spiritual connection to the Creator (whatever you choose to believe that is, from GOD to Physics) first. This is like a sailor checking the stars and setting course before pulling up anchor. Of course it makes sense, when else is the one moment each day that is the first moment each day? What other time can you “put your GOD first” other than the first time each day. I can promise you that when you do this, you will also see past the Legacy faith's limitations, and understand that we are part of an Eternal family of Life, a real living universe filled with loving, healing, energy. It is more wonderful than any religious claim, and more available to you directly, than through any person, priest, minister, elder, father, preacher, teacher, or other “professional”. The message from Heaven is “Be Happy and Feel Free, for your are an Eternal Being. Manifest Heaven on Earth and tell everyone about it”.
After several years in college, when I realized how empty my life had become without God, recognizing that all I was doing was for myself (acquire money, but things, travel), I realized that the emptiness in my life was because I had not gone to church (Catholic) for six years. Recognizing I had sinned, I went to confession, received absolution, talked with a Catholic priest, wne to mass, received the Eucharist, and renewed my life with Jesus Christ being the center of all that I am and do. I let His teachings and the laws of God and the teachings of the Catholic Church (which are based on God's laws and the teachings of Christ) set the boundaries for which I can find true happiness in life.
All of us need to undergo a conversion in life sometime, finally recognizing where we are on our earthly journey, and where we need to be. When Jese says "Follow me" we need to pay attention and become doers of the Word and not hearers only.
It's never too late to undergo a conversion. I pray that all of the people on this blog will put aside the trappings of this world, and make Jesus the center of their lives.
When I was 12 years old, I realized that if I were to die, I would not go to Heaven. I got on my knees and asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins. At that moment, He did and I become a child of God. I have the assurance that I am His. All I did was ask and He saved me. God does the saving! If anyone is not sure of going to Heaven someday, all they have to do is ask Jesus to come into your heart, and believe that He will. It will change your life on this Earth and will ensure your place in Heaven when you die. The Bible says that'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God' John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that who soever believeith in him should not perish but have eternal life"
In 1995 my son who would have been 24 on June 24th. Mysteriously disappeared. No one saw or heard from him in over a week. He was on his way back from a Rodeo. Everyone said not to worry, but you can't say that to a mother. I started looking for him and put out a missing person report on him. I asked God to help me find my son. I stayed at my sisters house for a week trying to find any answers to why he didn't call something that he always did. or why he couldn't be found. Later on in the week, I was driving by the river that ran past my sisters home and had an erie feeling, and urge to stop and look in the river, at a particular spot. Well had I done so I would have found my son and his friend. And then I had another strange feeling that told me not to stop. I was being pulled in two different directions.It was a tough decision to make, but I opted not to. I kept driving desperately wanting to get home. Later that week someone found my son's license plate in the river while they were fishing and reported it to police. Had they just disgarded the plate that day my son would have never been found, because that river emty's into a much larger columbia river in Oregon. The coroner said that alcohol was a contributing factor along with lack of sleep that caused the car to go into the river. Both men drowned.
At 12 years old, I asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins. At the moment I asked, He did! I now have Him who lives in my heart. He is my intercesser to God and his Holy Spirit dwells within me. Heaven is mine someday because of Jesus' death on the cross. If you want peace in your heart, ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you. He won't without you asking. Salvation is free. All you do is ask and He will save you! You have to believe that he is the son of God. You will never be alone since he is only a prayer away. No rituals, or rules to keep. It is that simple!
Mike, what do you mean "put aside the trappings of this world, and make Jesus the center of their lives."
What trappings have you put aside? How is your life different now that Jesus is the center of it?
posted this on the Jacoby thread:
well i'm convinced. as an atheist, i've been all wet so i'm ready to adopt theism right here and right now.
and for those of you out there who, like me, are in the market for a shiny new deity, here's a little buyer's guide i threw together:
there appear to be lots of gods to choose from. for those of us heathen who reside in north america, europe, or the mid-east, it looks like one of the 'Yaweh' model of deity is readily available and 'good to go' right out of the box.
there seem to be three main varieties:
1) New 'improved' YAWEH - providing first rate deism for going on two millenia (includes divine son and holy ghost at no extra charge)
2) Newer, even more 'improved' YAWEH/w really loud prophet - for those with a newer, hipper, 'in your face' attitude toward their deities (comes with an 'anti-globalization' package that plugs right into your radical politics outlet)
3) and finally, YAWEH Classic - a perennial that keeps on giving. perfect for those gated communities, yet 'retro' enough for weekends out clubbing. and you won't be disappointed with the 'smite thine enemies' option . . .
i think we can all find something we like among this fine selection. and for those with an esoteric bent, i suggest the nordic package (thor, wotan, etc) while any with a tropical taste might opt for the Mezo-American selection (some nice blood cults for those who like a bit of spice).
hope this helps.
important addendum:
the new, improved YAWEH model has produced some confusion. the divine messiah and holy ghost components are not, repeat NOT, optional and must be plugged in for this deity to operate correctly.
on another, related note, believers in this deity must use the 'Monotheism' line at the airport as the messiah/holy ghost units do not count against the one-god carry on rule.
thank you, and there will be no more announcements until this cosmos arrives at enlightenment. passengers should be advised of a bit of a headwind and that the drink cart will be by shortly, so mind your feet.
Your life of Good Works, Good Deeds, Church Membership will not earn you favor with God!! There is only one way into Heaven!!
Believing (Taking God at his word) the Gospel ofGrace...
That...
The Lor Jesus Died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.
Simply believing this gospel with all of your heart wil give you entry into eaven and God's presence....
God Bless..
I don't know who posted this but this is the kind of bull sh** I'm talking about. Jesus didn't die for anybody's sins. The fact is he died and never came back and never will. He can't, he's dead. His ideas may live on but the man is dead. Virgin's don't have babies. They never had and they never will. They can't.
People who believe this crap can't even prove Jesus ever existed. They have no idea who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They have no idea where rapture comes from. They basically don't know the first thing about the bible or who wrote it. Jesus never wrote one word of the bible. Not one. PEOPLE wrote it. People who couldn't possibly know as much as we do now.
When is Jesus coming back? Where is he? It's been over 2000 years. The answer is, he's not coming back because dead people don't come back. Believe it if you want to but when you die it will be the same for you as it is for Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and anybody else. Death is the same for everybody. You're gonna die and God will not save you from it. Jesus couldn't save himself. If he could have he would have returned by now. Ask yourself, what's he waiting on? Think people, think.
The same people who believe this are the very ones who refuse to take their kids to the doctor because the lord will heal them. Unless the courts step in, the child dies. Look at Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, the pedophiles in the catholic church... All the idiots who claim to be religious and are criminals. GEORGE BUSH, DICK CHENEY! They are con men playing you for a fool. And people keep falling for it. How much more proof do you need that religion does not make you good. Usually it's the opposite.
chris :
I lived in the years of the Nation of Islam.
You do NOT submit to Islam, you submit to other people. You have given up your ability to think. You have basically said "I give up". "I surrender".
To what, to who? Other people? I bet they're happy. Now they own you and your mind. They control you and tell you what to do and what to think so you don't piss off Allah.
Woopee! Sheep do the same thing. Only sheep need a shepherd.
CHUCK CHRIS deosnt submit to islam- he doesnt submit to other people- he submits to the will of ALLAH the creator and the god
CHUCK
alot of people think islam is like christianity in that there is an intercessor between the believer and the creator- Muhammad(pbuh) doesnt intercede for us to ALLAH and we dont pray to Muhammad(pbuh).
We actually dont have a shepherd.
Also unlike all other religions- there is no human hiearchy in islam- no popes bishops shamans gurus ancestors or monks or priests to interpert and explain for us- we have n one telling us what to do or think- we pray and we read the Qur'an, the sunnah(actions of the Prophet(pbuh) and hadith(sayings and words of the Prophet(pbuh).
The Qur'n itslef tells us to not blindly follow the ways of our parents- but instead to read it ourselves and use our own reason and intelligence and make our own determination as to the validity of it. It actually challenges mankind to produce one paragraph like it- or find disharmony in it.
so thats what we do- we read and interpert ourselves- we dont follow mullahs or sheikhs or imams or any man at all- as a matter of fact- it is a great sin to put anyone or anything beside ALLAH- mullas sheikhs and imams and scholars all stand shoulder to shoulder and feet to feet in prayer with and in equality with every other muslim-
we are all as equal as the teeth of a comb.
I think anyone can appreciate the reason and logic and extraordinary egalitarianism inherent in islam.
peace
Before 6 January comes to a close, I wish everyone A Happy Epiphany Feast, from beautiful Sydney, Australia! May all of us who are Christians have the wisdom of the Magi to worship Jesus offering Him our most precious gift - our own self without reservations!
[For those who are not familiar with the Catholic and Eastern Church traditions, it is the feast to commemorate the visit of the Magi, the three wise men, (given the names Gaspar, Melchior and Balthasar)from the East who came to worship Jesus when He was born.]
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
Many Christians no longer believe in the Magi visit experience but add it to the myth pile of Adam and Eve, Abraham, the killing of the Holy Innocents, Bethlehem in general, Santa Claus, etc.
i guess theyll skip the good wishes of soja then
but im sure others appreciate her thoughtfulness
To DANIEL:
(Ref: my post 6 Jan 07 12:13 AM and your post 6 Jan 07 4:43 AM)
I thought my statement “I agree it is not easy to find a good meditation teacher,” needed an explanation and an apology to all good meditation teachers. There are .wonderful meditation teachers around the world, and I have known several. But to find one who is cut out exactly for one’s unique spiritual needs takes a long search. The ones who seem most appropriate to us may be in another country for instance. But I believe in the saying “When the student is ready, the master appears.” We are led to the people who are just right for us at right time when our hearts are ready. I couldn’t think of a single teacher I have known who shares your unique aspirations, so I presumed you might find it difficult to find a meditation teacher.
If a Zen master is who you are looking for, there are many good ones, both from Buddhist and Catholic traditions. I’m sure you’ll find one when you start to search seriously. My favourite Zen book is “Zen mind, Beginners mind “by D T Suzuki. I’m sure you have read it too.
Practice of one’s religion is spirituality. There is nothing complicated about it, it is available to all. The point is to really practice it. Knowing about God’s law is not sufficient. That is where we believers fail, in the practice. There are many ways of practising the same religion. For example as a Catholic one may choose to say the rosary as prayer, be a Charismatic, do mental spiritual exercises of St Ignatius, practice contemplation… The saints are meant to serve as role models for the practice of faith. All practices lead to God and the Catholic may choose a practice that best appeals to their heart and mind. The form of worship that all Catholics have in common is the Mass.
Narcissistic materialism stands in the way of spirituality, and that includes real spirituality among believers. I do not think that science and atheism play such a great role in comparison. Science is not only compatible with religion, but they must go hand in hand with each other, as Einstein pointed out. One can confidently state that Einstein was a reasonably intelligent man. I do not consider atheism and ‘anti-theism’ as any serious threat to religion simply because anyone who really wants to consider both sides of the issue before coming to a conclusion will find plenty of material in favour of religion. But if the person merely wants to confirm his own non-belief, he will seek out only material that supports his view and nothing can be done about it. Faith in God is a choice, just as the decision to reject God is a choice. It would seem that faith in God contains an unknown element which believers have termed ‘grace’. Everyone’s free will must be respected. God does.
Daniel, I do not feel qualified to continue the complex discussion you have initiated. You must seek out experts in the area. I’m not one of them. Fr Thomas Keating has a large network in the US. Just a thought that crossed my mind.
I wish you success in your personal journey! Your personal journey is the first and most important part. If you get your part right, like the ass/mule in the beautiful little poem posted by Mo:, the rest of the world will take care of itself. Gandhi wrote: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
To Soja from Daniel. Beautiful Post. I have indeed read a few of the Suzuki books--including the one you mention. My favorite was "Zen and Japanese culture". I should have mentioned the Suzuki books along with Herrigal earlier, but the Herrigal came along at the right time for me while the Suzuki books came later...
To Phil and Tekojchoe--beautiful posts as well. Tekojchoe, I hope you do some more writing--you seem to have a natural and God-given aesthetic sensibility. Put together a little book someday even if only for friends and relatives....
My most formative 'religious', aka 'spiritual' experience? I may be experiencing it now...
DANIEL, REALIST and A HERMIT - I get you! Your posts intrigue, inspire and preoccupy me. The most telling aspect is the different ways we arrived at our similar viewpoints.
DANIEL - I wholeheartedly believe that your LSD experience brought forth a dramatic change. On that subject, I had an interesting experience I'd like to share with you. Some years ago, I was a Systems Analyst for a large behavioral health company. I had a meeting with the Clinical Director, but her meeting with a Case Manager had gone long. She waved me in her office as the meeting concluded. She and the Case Manager were dicussing the on-going care of a 'problem' patient, a hard-core alcoholic. They had been treating him for years with Anabuse, which is designed to make one nauseous when combined with the ingestion of alcohol. This patient, however, had developed a high tolerance for Anabuse and it was no longer an effective deterrent. I had recently seen a documentary on the clinical history of LSD and its astounding effectiveness as a one-dose 'cure' for addiction prior to Timothy Leary's successful attempt to bring it out of the clinical setting and introducing it to popular culture. To my horror, I found myself saying, 'I heard that LSD may cure alcoholism.' I had mentally began kicking my own ass when the Clinical Director responded, 'I agree, but try getting that past the powers that be.'.
I do not advocate the recreational use of psychodelic or psychogenic drugs; however, they may have their place from a clinical standpoint. Unfortunately, research has been stymied due to illicit use.
Peace!
does anyone ponder the cynicism of the Catholic church paying off the victims who were sexually abused at the hands of their own church fathers? I'm not being snarky, I honestly want to know: how could ANYONE trust a man, a former Nazi youth, who wears red Gucci shoes and a $25,000 girly hat (how many hungry mouths would those feed?) after all of this serial, church-ordained sexual abuse was uncovered? absolutely nonsensical to me. Alice in Wonderland time. here I was thinking codified pedophilia would have brought them down. clearly, the catholic church is far my cynical than I.
is it b/c of the Bible? a book written, co-written, committee-written, then edited and re-edited by a political group in Constantinople 300 years after it was translated from a Greek/Latin/Aramaic soup? Then, whoa, over a thousand years later, King James gets his very own version to comply w/the politics of his own time? BIZARRE!
it's been my experience that the only thing "true believers" have in common is something missing on a deeply personal, human level. this is something I was born with, my own faith in the common goodness of man. I don't need a big book, or a man in a fancy dress for that.
Daniel- Most of the friends i went to high school with were dealing cocaine and living beyond their means- i saw them all fall- i spent half my teen years babysitting people while they tripped-
i also worked for a psychotherapist in the early 80s- i remeber one client he had- he tripped alot and one time he never came back and thats the truth-
try aldous huxley doors of perception- or Albert Hoffman- the man who isolated lsd- his book lsd my problem child not all trips are good daniel
no one knows enough about it-
again read albert hoffman- research hasnt been stymied due to illicit use, but because the effects are so wildly unpredictable on every individual psyche- even when one psyche takes it different times- no one has good trips every time and you never know when that bad trip is going to come.
ps everyone knows aldous huxley he wrote brave new world where everyone used "soma"
the band the doors got their name from the title
pam--- you were right to be horrified- i choose to deliberately misundertand why you were
Thanks for the greetings Soja,
Happy Nativity to you all!
(I don't consider it a violation of my rights when someone wishes me well because of a religious festival).
Sorry Daniel, Soja, Victoria and Pamela,
I haven't had much time to post lately.
I'm enjoying reading all of your posts though.
It's been a long time since I read Suzuki's books. I also very much enjoyed Alan Watts' books. "Cloud Hidden, Whereabouts Unknown" was one of my favourites.
I like the deeply natural spirituality of Taoism. That's my kind of religion. To me, Christianity seems really artificial and twisted in comparison.
I more or less gave up Buddhism for Taoism in the end because I felt that Buddhism is about becoming a Buddha. I don't really think our purpose in life is to become a Buddha. I think in reality we just are. Our purpose is what we make of it.
Taoism is about understanding who we are and our place in nature and being happy being ourselves, not trying to become something we are not. Most religions seem to be about pretending to be something other than we really are.
Christians are always beating themselves up for being sinners or pretending that they are better than everybody else because they think they have been saved. It's very unhealthy.
Buddhists are always trying to become more like the Buddha. Self improvement is nice, and useful, but I don't think that's really what we are here for.
I'd rather just enjoy being me. I'm still a Taoist at heart.
but mostly daniel people who do lsd only bring out what is already inside them- if theyre naturally centered - its like a magnifying glass enlarging wht is already firmly intrinsic- you had your experience because maybe you needed an excuse to allow it to come out- it was a safe way to release it- maybe it was the universes or gods way of giving you a glimpse- a little taste to let you know it was possible- for you it wasnt an escape- ill call itan inscape-
mom was a deadhead daniel- what can i say?
but most of all ask also- meditation is a good way to discipline impatience and need for sensory stimuli- but after awhile it seems that it becomes a stimuli itself-
while consciously asking (prayer) is a more active approach- in meditation you are passive but you dont really take responsibility for your development- it is all so arbitrary- maybe it will feel transcendant maybe it wont- in prayer there is also passivity in the quiet and waiting to - not hear- but get those little affirming bolts of thought that come unbidden- those little shots of clarity-
what youre feeding your mind is important most of all i think- how can you clean out the cosmic webs if you dont know what they are though?
i know i jump around alot- but here is a simpleidea that i have that will probably be ridiculed but-
the journey of the soul or spirit is getting on an elevator- down here you have magic-maybe dark
astrology- tarot youknow the things people use totry and control things beyond their control-
maybe floor 3 is yogic practices- buddhsit practices trying to subdue te body and mind and all that
then up
ok by up let me be clear theres no judgement on better being a higher number- just different-
i just put the control things first well spiritually speaking i guess they really are self centered and that would be lower- but theres no hiearchy here just examples
maybe devil worship anima spirits nature
gods goddesses
supplications asking for material benefits
chanting for cadillacs
gurus
masters
Jesus(ata)
Muhammad(pbuh)
buddha
moses
youknow
snakehandling and mormons
but the point is
of course close to the top is enlightenment yay
and at the top is god atma whatever you like
i like ALLAH personally
( i wouldnt be ableto pray in a half hour if i left ALLAH out) please ndulge my personal compulsion there no spiritual oneupsmanshipintended
the penthouse suite is ALLAH god so
why not just get on and push the P?
you can spend alot oftime on psillycibin mushroom floor (just kidding)
well as usual ive lost my train of thought-
taking stock of the self is the first step toknowing it were all on a lifelong journey of that-
all i can say is ive donelittle else in my life but that journey- im happy for it now but believe me alot of people would say i shouldve been in the university
no one ever said on their deathbed i wish id have made more money or gottenmore academic recognition
unless theyre so egoladen that theyre beyoond hope
st john dark night of the soul is like a how to manual for the deep recesses of the psyche
its a great concrete and productive way to gain insight and wisdom into how we function because it is completely individualized to the reader
i favor sufis myself
i think youd love sufis
instead of getting on this website one day
jog on over tothe nearest sufi circle and check them out theyre like the hippies of enlightenment
i really wish one tie in your life you pray with muslims though
because it is the most connected human beings can get- joined at the shoulder hip and feet like one fluid unified body
then you would just love rabia of basra- shes an islamic saint and mystic
and therese the little flower of liseux is another favorite of mine
i like merton- i thought he was a true catholic- you know the word catholic literally means universal-
also jalaludin rumi wrote some incredible poetry-
he wrote s stroy (again i paraphrase) wait ill go look for it- here it is
:
A certain person came to the Friend's door
and knocked.
"Who's there?"
"It's me."
The Friend answered, "Go away. There's no place
for raw meat at this table."
The individual went wandering for a year.
Nothing but the fire of separation
can change hypocrisy and ego. The person returned
completely cooked,
walked up and down in front of the Friend's house,
gently knocked.
"Who is it?"
"You."
"Please come in, my Self,
there's no place in this house for two."
heres rabia
"Beloved God, if I worship You from fear of hell, burn me
in hell. If I worship You from hope of Paradise, exclude
me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your own sake,
then do not withhold Yourself from me."
there are many accounts of her life from a poet named attar- he wrote a book called the conference of the birds
ooo if you like humor you cant be mulla nasruddin
the persians, afghanis and turks all claim him
he is hysterical
#
# Nasruddin used to stand in the street on market-days, to be pointed out as an idiot. No matter how often people offered him a large and a small coin, he always chose the smaller piece. One day a kindly man said to him: Nasruddin, you should take the bigger coin. Then you will have more money and people will no longer be able to make a laughing stock of you. That may be true, said Nasruddin, but if I always take the larger, people will stop offering me money to prove that I am more idiotic than they are. Then I would have no money at all.
# As Nasruddin emerged form the mosque after prayers, a beggar sitting on the street solicited alms. The following conversation followed: Are you extravagant? asked Nasruddin. Yes Nasruddin. replied the beggar. Do you like sitting around drinking coffee and smoking? asked Nasruddin. Yes. replied the beggar. I suppose you like to go to the baths everyday? asked Nasruddin. Yes. replied the beggar. ...And maybe amuse yourself, even, by drinking with friends? asked Nasruddin. Yes I like all those things. replied the beggar. Tut, Tut, said Nasruddin, and gave him a gold piece. A few yards farther on. another beggar who had overheard the conversation begged for alms also. Are you extravagant? asked Nasruddin. No, Nasruddin replied second beggar. Do you like sitting around drinking coffee and smoking? asked Nasruddin. No. replied second beggar. I suppose you like to go to the baths everyday? asked Nasruddin. No. replied second beggar. ...And maybe amuse yourself, even, by drinking with friends? asked Nasruddin. No, I want to only live meagerly and to pray. replied second beggar. Whereupon the Nasruddin gave him a small copper coin. But why, wailed second beggar, do you give me, an economical and pious man, a penny, when you give that extravagant fellow a sovereign? Ah my friend, replied Nasruddin, his needs are greater than yours.
# One day Nasruddin went to a banquet. As he was dressed rather shabbily, no one let him in. So he ran home, put on his best robe and fur coat and returned. Immediately, the host came over, greeted him and ushered him to the head of an elaborate banquet table. When the food was served, Nasruddin took some soup with spoon and pushed it to the his fur coat and said, Eat my fur coat, eat! It's obvious that you're the real guest of honor today, not me!
# One hot day, Nasruddin was taking it easy in the shade of a walnut tree. After a time, he started eying speculatively, the huge pumpkins growing on vines and the small walnuts growing on a majestic tree. Sometimes I just can't understand the ways of God! he mused. Just fancy letting tinny walnuts grow on so majestic a tree and huge pumpkins on the delicate vines! Just then a walnut snapped off and fell smack on Mullah Nasruddin's bald head. He got up at once and lifting up his hands and face to heavens in supplication, said: "Oh, my God! Forgive my questioning your ways! You are all-wise. Where would I have been now, if pumpkins grew on trees!
i justpasted that fromanother question
god only knows how long this post will be now i better go and i n=didnt really get to my point
sorry about the previous post it made me kind of physically sick- people on anabuse get so violently sick and when a person is on it a couple of years they have gotten to such a state of degeneracy and constant sicknes it would be far far better for them to be an alcoholic-like methadone where the cure is worse than the illness- i call them liquid handcuffs that the state and the social workers use to keep people enchained- it really is troublesome when theyre suffering becomes a "problem"-
ah well thats the primitive level that passes for social engineering in modern life- i guess they have mortgages to pay- i better not get started but i have good reason
well sorry daniel i took up so much room here but it ssemed like what i should do
now peace i better go now realizing ive said nothing
EEEGADS AD EEKAMOUSE IM REALLY SORRY EVERYONE FOR HOGGING UP ALLTHIS SPACE- SO ILLHOG UP MORE SAYIG IM SORRY-EEEEEEEE
Victoria wrote:
"i favor sufis myself"
There it is. We have found some common ground. I think Sufis are cool!
Regards,
Realist
I like Nasruddin also!
whoo hoo! id like to post this on an atheist site but im afraid they might think i was attacking them or trying to prove something and ive learned some atheists are very sensitive- i didnt realize they were so ostracized because i didnt think about it
i go through all kinds of crazy little alienations when people see my headscarf but mostly it draws out curiosity becasue people are trying to reconcile the irish face with the terrorist clohtes--i have more sympathy for them than they know but i cant tell them it might hurt their feelings
but i just prayed morning prayers and asked ALLAH alot to make my heart more wide and make me radiate more tangible love to my husband and was feeling all glowy and i have 3 ok 4 homeless kittens that are 9 months old now and 3 well 4 live with me and this other cat ive been feeding and call papa just discovered is a girl but she sleeps on the couch all the time but runs out and kind of makes like to bite me or hisses and poor thing and today she actually came in while i held the door a first and then rubbed up against me and i pet her some and some more-oo washington journal time- and then threw herself on the floor all purry and wiggly and i pet her some more-
she is one ugggly little kitty too aww i shouldnt saty it but she has half an ear and her tail looks bit off at the end and crooked- my husband thinks he doesnt like her- but maybe atheists are always asking for proof of god and i thought well how can we prove love? maybe theres some esoteric ehtereal electical magnetic emanations that we havent measured yet and poor papa felt them and maybe some genius will find a way to measure them someday and therell be some divine divining rod and then we can see where it leads us o no papa just found a box to hop into and someone (ok me) just put a rug in there and i dont think my honeypie is going to be so thrilled the first time he catches me petting her- well i guess i have 4 well 5 cats now but i dont and im not in denial either
yours for rhyme time and reason
Victoria,
I'm not asking this to be disrespectful, but I want to understand.
Why do you ask Allah to make your heart wider and more loving? Why do you feel you can't do that yourself?
And the "Blog Hog" and "Off-Topic" award for this thread/commentary goes to _________ ?
My revalation is the historical fact that religion has caused more unnecessary human suffering than good over the past 2 centuries.
I have spent many years in the realms of technology and science, most recently in the arena of applied nanotechnology. This point is made for a very specific reason. The further one investigates the innermost workings of molecular structures and systems, particularly in biological systems, or investigates outward into the cosmos, the complexity and perfection of these systems is astonishing, challenging the very boundaries of human comprehension.
Does this suggest some form of "intelligent design" on a cosmic scale? Perhaps . . . but, does such speculation automatically require a blind adherence to a particular version of a rigid, religious doctrine and collection of edicts as rendered into a text for which no argument or flexibility of thought can be allowed?
I hardly think so. I would respectfully offer that fundamentalism and spiritualism are not only separate, but diametrically opposed regimes of thought and action.
Blind belief in the politically authorized versions of religious texts or scriptures tends to lead to fanatical devotion to a narrowly defined version of the "correct" god, which in turn has led to the vast majority of wars, misery and death experienced by the world's populations.
A loving, open appreciation for a spiritual path in one's life, and a loving, open appreciation for a supreme being and the creations thereof, on the other hand, almost invariably leads to appreciation of and compassion for others, all living things, the world, and cosmos we live in.
It's so simple . . . and threatening to the self proclaimed fundamentalist leaders of the world, who are anything but spiritual in their political, self serving agendas.
As an example, if one actually takes the time, and perhaps the intellectual risk, to study the actual words spoken by those of real spiritual orientation, whether it be the shaman of an indigenous culture, or the direct words of Jesus Christ when he was alive and breathing on this planet, you will not hear words of hatred, dogma, and fear.
What you will hear the is universal language of spiritual maturity as once conveyed to virtually every culture known to exist . . . compassion, appreciation for life, and the world. It is only the hideous, self-serving, mutated misinterpretation of these concepts that has been regurgitated upon various populations who are threatened with death, or worse, should they dare to question the momentarily established religious authority.
If we, as a species on this lovely, but currently challenged planet, have any hope of evolving from this sad state of affairs, our first step toward that potential goal is to escape from the social pathology of self proclaimed religious dogma and authority, and exercise the spiritual courage to see, and act beyond such limitations.
If there truly is a God to be appreciated and revered as the creator of us and the universe we exist in, would this not be the real lesson plan, to exercise compassion, respect, and appreciation for this most spectacular creation and all of the things living in it?
A thought thusly offered for your consideration.
God sent His Son for ALL of us -- ALL meaning just that ALL-- ALL who have posted here, ALL who are so into tearing Him down -- ALL -- and no matter what you say or write -- He still loves you ALL. Anyone can be "Religious" -- I never have nor will I force anyone to believe what I have found to be Truth. I walk in Faith -- Faith is seeing the invisable when everyone else sees darkness.
May God Bless All of you.
I happened upon a friend of mine who had hung himself, after he'd gone. I couldn't reconcile the idea that a suicide went to hell, and the person I had known. So I started doing some research and found out how I'd been living under a rock effectively, not questioning, and fully accepting the brainwashing that I had received by todays society. That would have to be the most formative 'religious' experience for me.
January 3, 2007 1:43 PM