Readers’ Responses to Our Question (409)

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God site. Thanks!

Reading 1: Psalm 139
Reading 2: John 14:15-23
Reading 3: Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, verses 61 to 66

PS: In the reading from the Bhagavad Gita, I was asked by Dom Bede Griffiths to substitute the name Arjuna with my own. (I was given the name "Priya" meaning "Beloved of God" at the end of the ceremony.) The reading thus corrected provided below:

God dwells in the heart of all beings, Soja; thy God dwells in thy heart.
And his power of wonder moves all things – puppets in a play of shadows –
whirling them onwards on the stream of time.

Go to him for thy salvation with all thy soul, victorious woman.
By his grace thou shalt obtain the peace supreme, thy home of Eternity.

I have given thee words of vision and wisdom more secret than hidden mysteries.
Ponder them in the silence of thy soul, and then in freedom do thy will.

Hear again my Word supreme, the deepest secret of silence.
Because I love thee well, I will speak to thee words of salvation.

Give thy mind to me, and give me thy heart, and thy adoration.
This is my Word of promise: thou shalt in truth come to me, for thou art dear to me.

Leave all things behind, and come to me for thy salvation.
I will make thee free from the bondage of sins. Fear no more.

----Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, verses 61 - 66

Yes, I have had a formative religious experience: When i went to my church's annual seder meal, the rector greeted me and showed me what table to sit at. He greeted me in the way that Jesus would have.
Another experience was the way the Rabbi at my church taught the Hebrew alphabet and vowels.
Another experience is the way in which i enjoy quiet time -- i reflect and go back 3,000 years ago to when Jesus was preaching in the new testament.
Another experience is reading parables in which he spoke to people who did not understand. It makes me roll over and laugh to think how people responded.
Blessings,
Beth

PS: When I say that my spiritual journey fell by the wayside I do NOT mean that I lost faith in God and started to live a godless life. The spiritual muscle needs constant exercise, a relationship like a plant, needs to be nurtured in order for it to grow. What I mean is that I did not take the time to pray and got trapped and weighed down with the cares of my life. Just when I should have been praying even more, I did just the opposite - I became victim to spiritual apathy. In hindsight I realise that the neglect of my spiritual health and my relationship to Jesus had weakened me to the point that I did not have sufficient strength and wisdom to tackle the problems in my life in the best possible way. That is why this recommitment is such an important step in my life and I chose to do it publicly on this forum.

I'm deeply grateful to Ms Quinn and Mr Meacham for starting this wonderful thread, for my participation in the discussion on this forum has gradually helped me break out of the apathy and revive some of the old fire I had in spiritual matters. It has also opened my eyes to the fact that like manna, my spiritual strength must be gathered fresh every day, and I cannot live on the memories of what I gathered a long ago.

The high point of my spiritual journey thus far was exactly fifteen years ago this day, when at 6.00 AM on 23 February 1992 I took my first vows as a lay Oblate of the Benedictine Order officiated by Dom Bede Griffiths in Shanthivanam, his Christian Ashram in South India. It was a simple ceremony outside Fr Bede’s hut and it was witnessed by an Indian Sannyasi nun, and three Americans - a lay woman and two lay brothers. As preparation I had spent a few days in a hut in silent prayer and meditation. For the ceremony readings, I was asked to choose a Psalm, I chose Psalm 139. Fr Bede chose two texts, The Gospel of John, Chapter 14, Verses 15-23, and The Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18, Verses 61-66.

Fr Bede gave me a new name – Priya, and he said it meant “beloved of God.”

I was to return one year later for the second and final ceremony. When I met Fr Bede in Germany in September that year while he was on his tour, I had no way of knowing that it was to be my last meeting with him. I did not return for my second ceremony nor could I visit him before his death on 13 May 1993.

Much happened in my life since then and my spiritual journey fell by the wayside. I wish to take this opportunity to renew the commitment I made to Jesus Christ on this day fifteen years ago, to follow Him and live for Him. If the person who reads this happens to be a Christian, please do say a prayer for me - a prayer that the Holy Spirit may show me the way and lead me step by step. I thank you in advance for your prayers.

Psalm 139

O Lord you have searched me
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
You perceive my thoughts from afar,
You discern my going out and my lying down;
You are familiar with all my ways,
Before a word is on my tongue
You know it completely, O Lord.

You hem me in - behind and before;
You have laid your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
Too lofty for me to attain.

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from you presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
If I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
If I settle on the far side of the sea,
Even there your hand will guide me,
Your right hand will hold me fast.

If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
And the light become night around me,”
Even the darkness will not be dark to you;
The night will shine like the day,
For darkness is as light to you.

For you created my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
When I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
Your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
Were written in your book
Before one of them came to be.

How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
Were I to count them,
They would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Test me and know my anxious thoughts,
See if there is any offensive way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

------------------------------------------

“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever – the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long the world will not see me anymore but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realise that I am in my Father, and you are in me and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

-------- John 14: 15-23

---------------------------------------

God dwells in the heart of all beings, Arjuna: thy God dwells in thy heart. And his power of wonder moves all things – puppets in a play of shadows – whirling them onwards on the stream of time.

Go to him for they salvation with all they soul, victorious man. By His grace thou shalt obtain the peace supreme, they home of Eternity.

I have given thee words of vision and wisdom more secret than hidden mysteries. Ponder them in the silence of they soul, and then in freedom do thy will.

Hear again my Word supreme, the deepest secret of silence. Because I love thee well, I will speak to thee words of salvation.

Give thy mind to me, and give me thy heart, and thy sacrifice, and thy adoration. This is my Word of promise: thou shalt in truth come to me, for thou art dear to me.

Leave all things behind, and come to me for thy salvation. I will make thee free from the bondage of sins. Fear no more.

------------Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18:61-66

----------------------------------------------

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

s_j_thaikattil@yahoo.com.au (s underscore j underscore)

Hello. My daddy told me that he knows god. He even spoke to gog and maybe haves his auto graf. My daddy told me that god is not too tall and brown hair. God also has big ears and big a nose and lots of frekles on his face. Daddy says god is his nick name and his real name is Alfred Edward Newman. MY daddy is ten feet tall so I think god is 4 feet tall. maybe 5 feet. Who would think that god is so short. My mommy is short. Mommy is only 6 feet tall i think. She do not live at home any more. She live with uncle Dicky. Uncle Dicky buys me lots of present. We have a secret. Even daddy do not know. goodbuy.

From Dorothy:

"Phil: Mom, does God speak English?
Me: Sure! "

My Grandfather was a Mennonite preacher. He used to say the Bible could only be properly understood if it was read in it's original language....German!

Then he would laugh so hard he'd fall off his chair.

A wise, tolerant and funny man, I miss him.

I agree with "ME". We are only important amongst ourselves.
The truth is that "We are matter that don't matter".

I think you've run the faith thing into the ground. The whole question boils down to the difference between knowledge and belief, perception, which we no little of.
Read Steven Hawkings latest flip flopping on black holes and he says "he can imagine" now that's solid science if I've ever seen it.
The proof is in the pudding and looking at the state of the world today I'd say we are lacking a great deal of faith in our fellow man because of walls that divide us. Sex,religion, color, beliefs, ego and so many other meaningless things divide our selves from our selves.
We are all one with the Universe and the universe is pure consciousness illuminated by love and intelligence.

My mother screaming at me and my father after catching me praying with my buddhist gandmother. I was four year old, second one: being told I was unclean and could not go into the altar room, Why I was unclean was not explained completely until I began menstruating.

Aloha,
I'm certainly no expert on this subject but I believe that it's important to understand what you believe and to believe in what you understand. Don't feel like you're obligated to follow the beliefs of your near majority. I believe that most religions are based on hearsay. Again, I will be the first to admit that I tend to be simple minded. The expression, "seeing is believing" is the way to convince me of god.
I am very much impressed by the study of the universe. Time and space are the kinds of things that facinate me. If there are things I feel I "have to know", that's it. Check out any website that has anything to do with the Hubble telescope. Deep space photos. Now that is something to ponder! The laws of statistics and probability begs obvious questions. Man has been on the face of this earth for millions of years. The common era is about 2000 years. Why do so many restrict their interest in time. This would be one the reasons that I have said, "God did not create man but man created god.".
There are so many bigger curiosities than god. Are there not?
Aloha and thanks for reading this....................Maleko

To JN Coppock,
Thank you for your very clarifying remarks. It is a sad comment about the character of your co-worker that he seems to derive pleasure from contemplating your damnation. I think that people's characterizations of their gods, and their attitudes toward what they believe will be the fate of others tells us almost nothing about their gods, but much about the kind of people they are deep inside.

To your observation that while non believers point to the lack of evidence for the existence of god, yet they do not provide evidence against the existence of god, I would want to emphasize that the maker of a claim is the one who should provide supporting evidence. It would be absurd to expect every claim to stand simply because evidence against it cannot be found. Prove that I don't have a green griffin standing beside me right now. Can't? But you're not going to start believing that I do. You would immediately and rightly demand of me my evidence for such a claim. The lack of evidence for or against a claim is just a lack of evidence. That lack has no implication that the opposite claim has validity. So we have no choice but to expect and demand the maker of a claim to provide the supporting evidence, before lending any credence to the claim.

I am glad that you do not base your own religious opinion on the behaviors and attitudes of others. That sounds like a mature, wise and healthy stance.

VICTORIA
Remember where you had the nice conversation with Ted, Tammy, Pam M, Robin and me? Go there.

Interestingly enough, many of you are relatively entrenched in your system of belief in God, and I applaud you for it. Although I have already posted my own thoughts on this subject matter on Page Two of this forum (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2007/01/formative_religious_experience/comments.php?page=2), I find it interesting to note that a clear distinction between faith and reason has been overlooked by some of you, so I hope to present a brief case to all who read both this and all the posts that came before it.

I was at work the other day when three of us were discussing the finer points of faith and reason in a very civilized conversation, comparing thoughts on our beliefs for the purpose of sharing and perhaps growing. Another coworker entered the room and proceeded to inform me – while in the midst of my diatribe - that he knew where he was going to be after death and that I wouldn't be joining him. When I asked him where I’ll be, he chucked and said, “somewhere warmer.” He was referring, of course, to hell. I was playing the devil's advocate (excuse the pun) by indicating that Christianity was ultimately without proof because that which could be proven would necessarily require no faith! How this led to a pronouncement that I am headed to the abyss is still puzzling to me.

Anyway, my coworker then explained that he had all the proof he needs for God’s existence, and when I asked him if it was factual, quantifiable proof, he responded in the affirmative - then provided no evidence or testimony other than a wry smile. When pressed for details, he simply remarked that lightning had an area of effect, and he promptly left the office.

Thus, faith and reason, I assert, are antonyms that cannot be equated. Those who believe in a god trust in faith, as they have no "scientific method" by which to quantify or qualify their experiences except by trust alone. Those who reject a belief in modern monotheism or in any god do so out of a willingness to refuse to believe, whether intellectually-based upon lack of evidence or viscerally-based upon some bad experience with Christianity (or some other religion) itself. And, though non-believers point to the fact that no real evidence exists advocating the existence of a god, they by turn can provide little hard evidence disproving god other than the lack of evidence for one. It’s important to recall that under the scientific method, lack of evidence does not necessarily equate to lack of existence; without quantifiable elements, only a lack of understanding can be certain when considering the reality or falsehood of religion. Just because the quark’s existence was unknown until recent times did not mean it didn’t exist, only that our ability to understand it was uncertain at best.

In the end, one either believes or doesn't, and no amount of testimony or evidence is likely to convince either side that their opinion is wrong. So, in the meantime, I must put up with the smugness of a coworker who is certain I am damned to hell because I simply believe that faith and reason are incongruent. Thank goodness I haven’t based my own religious opinion on the behaviors and attitudes of others!

James Coppock
Omaha, NE
http://thelastbastionofreason.blogspot.com

BILL is too humble to make such an assertion

Tell me Bill L - now that you're a member of the church that Jesus founded, do you feel closer to him? have your chances for getting into heaven increased?

I was an evangelical, born-again Baptist and loved God so much . I came to realize I didn't really know God, just someone elses version of God created from my own and others understanding of the bible. I soon discovered the true Church that Jesus founded, and as a member of the Holy Catholic Church I have come to know Jesus in his fullness. I don't put down the other churches, they strive to know Christ and are wonderful Christians. The Baptists taught me a love of scriptures and a hunger for salvation and I will always be greatful to those loving people!

Dear friends,

The story of the religious struggle in our family, alas, isn’t finished. I really wish I had had a better education in India.

Phil’s baseball team lost their last game. We had a very earnest conversation that ran something like this (Phil is our 12 years old son):

Phil: Mom, why did we lose? I prayed at least equally hard as the first time when we won. Praying seemed so cool! I even promised to god definitely to be born-again like our president this time if we win!
Me: Maybe you still didn’t pray or believe enough! Belief moves mountains!

Phil: Hmmm...Mom, does God know everything?
Me: Sure!
Phil: So he knew that we were going to win our game the other day?
Me: Sure!
Phil: So if he knew, why did I have to pray? We would have won anyway!
Me: He may even have known that you were going to pray!
Phil: But then, he must have known that I was going to pray also for the second game, and still we lost, and he knew we were going to lose! Doesn’t that mean, we would win or lose, no matter if I pray or not?
Me: No. He may have listened to somebody else‘s praying, maybe Osama’s, and missed your prayer. Since nobody knows, you better grasp your chance and pray. Better a prophylactic prayer than none at all. It is a little bit similar to the choice of our president, who thought that it is better to wage a preventive war than no war at all!

Phil: Mom, if I were a real atheist, would we also have won the first game and lost the second?
Me: Probably. Mhmmm... I don’t know, maybe you would have lost - or even won - both games. Mhmmm.God moves in mysterious ways!

Phil: Mom, does God speak English?
Me: Sure! Our president even talked to him, before he liberated Iraq, and our president only speaks English!
Phil: But when god created everything 6000 years ago down there in the Middle East, even stars and galaxies millions of light years away, and everything in an astonishing 6 days, he couldn’t possibly have spoken English, because English didn’t exist then, I have read (Phil reads a lot of silly scientific stuff he really doesn’t understand yet). And if he had spoken English to Adam and Eve anyway, knowing everything in advance, they probably wouldn’t have understood him! Maybe that is the reason they didn’t obey! Maybe Eve even thought the apple tree was a pear tree (they look pretty similar). They probably didn’t even speak any language at all, since nobody could have taught them, and there is no talk in the bible of Adam and Eve going to school.

Dear fellow believers, can someone give me some advice how I can teach Phil so he finally wises up in order to go to heaven with me later?

Dorothy Kitsonganama McGill

why did they add- if you had one - at the end of this question-

this isnt the original question- sally and jon must imagine were unconcscius idiots

okay maleko- sometimes it takes a really long time for these posts to appear.

okay peace to you im always curious what atheists believe- and why- well not just atheists-

okay peace

Aloha,
oop! wrote too fast.............
My apologies

I just tried posting my belief. I guess it was censored. It wasn't profane, racist or of bad taste in any way. Gee...........I wonder who controls these postings.
Maleko

Aloha again V,
My belief is that god did not creat man but man created god.
I have thought long and hard about this. It is most logical.
BTW, There is no fear for something that does not exist. There was fear of heavy wooden beams falling.
Peace and Love,
Maleko

thats not true Jihadist- i Do say the Qur'an is reasonable- so i guess there is someone who says it-

and im not interested in what others judge my thinking process to be

just as im trying not to juidge theirs

mutual respect i think they call it

thats not true Jihadist- i Do say the Qur'an is reasonable- so i guess there is someone who says it-

and im not interested in what others judge my thinking process to be

Maleko you misunderstood my intentions but its fine
there was no inference to whether you have peace or not- i signoff with peace always

negating and rejecting religion isnt really building a philosophy but simply rejecting an existing one-

since this is your first post onthis question i dont see how you can know what people understand or dont but it doesnt matter

i have no idea what your philosophy is because its not stated- i had only your best interest at heart and no implications involved

peace

Aloha Victoria,
I am very very very much at peace with the world. There is a difference between the world and oneself. (obviously) My beliefs have been adopted by many "Jehovah Witness" people who have visited me. The church has since advised them not to come to my home anymore.
The realization or religious experience I refered to in my previous post was understood by everyone else it seems.
Mahalo............Maleko

BTW....I have good buddies who are Catholic, Methodist, Buddist,
yadda yadda.....I don't reject them. We all just accept each other.
It's all good if you are a better person for it.
I was once told that it's more important to find the G-spot than it is god.

I know you were trying to help Mary, Bill gwinn, but you've got a lot of nerve informing her of just where her son is and what will happen to him.

Mary - As you search for ways to cope with your grief, think about counseling and a support group.

BILL GWIN- thank you so much for your beautiful words- they were really heartfelt. God bless you and im going bck to re-read your story again.
peace and peace to you
really- that was beautiful thank you for sharing such an intimate moment of your life-

MALEKO- I would suggest that maybe it wasnt a religious experience- but your experience with religion- maybe they put the 'fear of god' into you a little TOO effectively-

the other side of that coin is the good bit.
but only you can decide and i hope you find your peace

Something happened to my post. Hence testing.

I remember that as a child, I was forced to go to church with my parents. There were these large wooden beams that supported the roof of the church that looked soo heavy. I developed a fear that they might come crashing down on us. Then I saw a "man" who had been nailed to a cross and his hands and feet were bleeding. It looked so painful! I began wondering why my parents would bring me to a place like this. A lot of people came to this strange place wearing only their nicest clothing. No one seemed to notice the man nailed to the cross. All of the big people (adults) would smile and chat politely. After a short while in the church all the small people were allowed to leave. We were led to "Sunday school". I hated sunday school because I was ony one of two boys among a whole bunch of girls. This went on for a few weeks before I questioned my dad as to why I had to be there when all of my friends didn't have to. He said, "Your mom wants this for you." That was all I needed to know and to make a long story short, I never went back. During those few weeks they had me baptised. For years I lived thinking that what's done is done. During my college years I enjoyed long talks with my philosophy teacher when one day this story popped up. He told me that it's as simple as declaring yourself un-baptised. It was like a huge weight was taken off my shoulders.
And that folks was my religious experience.

Victoria – I to have enjoyed reading your posts. (I haven’t posted since the my first one Jan 4 @12:32) It is obvious that many people have diversified thoughts about God. You said in a recent post that you don’t know how we can prove there is a God. We can’t. But we can individually find Him and individually KNOW He exists. Some compare and wonder how a loving God would allow terrible things to happen in this life. Or send people to Hell. It is simply because He gives us the choice to believe Him or not. He doesn’t take away that choice no matter what. And because we live in a world where many choose not to believe in Him, bad things happen. God allows bad things to happen because we have the choice to accept Him or not. God doesn’t send people to Hell, they choose not to go to Heaven because they choose to reject God. People have that right and some are adamant about it (see some of the posts). God still allows us to make the choice, either way. Just look at the world we live in to see what happens when so many think they have the answer and want to force their beliefs on other people, even to the point of war in the name of God. That is precisely what will bring Jesus back soon - to end the false teachings about God, that we are plagued with (again see some of the posts).

I believe God is open to all of us if we honestly search for Him. He will make himself known to us in an individual way. I shared my “Gift to Bob Hope” story as my first post because it was “My most formative religious experience”. It was not, as one commented, that he didn’t throw the album of pictures away, it was that God saved it as a surprise for me 30 years later and made me remember it. When I remembered it – it was like it had just happened – it was fresh – and I could still “feel” it. The pictures I gave to Bob Hope (which are now in a permanent display in a museum in DC) was for a small surprise for Bob Hope. But God turned it into a big surprise for me 30 years later, knowing that it was a prayer answered, and that God does answer prayer.

I can’t prove anything about God, but I have had many experiences with God that only confirm my belief in Him. I don’t have the space to share my experiences with God here. But probably the second most formative religious experience was being with my Mother when she died. She was sick in the hospital (83 years old) and I was going that day to see her. I had spent the night by her side and had come home to get some sleep and was going back. I had just taken a shower and was thinking I would wait about two hours for the traffic to subside since it was 1630 and evening rush hour would be starting (Washington DC area). I was getting dressed from the shower and God said, in my spirit, in that voice I have learned is God – “Go Now”. I finished dressing and went to see Mom. She died 45 min after I got there. If I had waited I wouldn’t have been there. She was sleeping while I was there, but suddenly she sat up in bed and starred up at the ceiling with her eyes unusually wide open for a few seconds, starring at something, then collapsed and went flat line. I know she was a Christian and I know I saw her pass into the spirit world (Paradise), since Heaven and Hell don’t really exist for us yet. No, I can’t prove it to anyone, but you can know God if you sincerely desire to.

Mary – You may have comfort about your son passing away prematurely because he was a baby. He was not old enough to be responsible for his choices. He was not the “accountable age”. So God will take care of him and he will have his chance to accept God – probably in the Millennium. He will not “come back”, but before the final judgment, he will have his “time”. Your son will not be “lost” if he accepts God when he has the chance. And you will see him again, in Heaven, (what we call the afterlife, for those who believe). Remember you have the choice, so believe and you will be there.
Just keep searching for your belief and God will help you find it.

thank you robin and emm too

i saw your post on susan jacoby and that was really kind of you to stick up for me

i tend to type kind of quickly and usually dont look back at my posts to check

i posted on another site altogether and was commenting on this phot presented for discussion of some lady wrapped up in an american flag like a head scarf and it was niqabi (the veil covering the face-
im really against that-theres a big division among muslim women over this issue- only rich women do it or women who want to be perceived as rich and taken care of but alot of us find it very humiliating and want to disassociate ourselves with it- it is a social invention- ive asked over 50 women why they persist in wearing them - even last night i asked a doctor! a doctor and she of course couldnt provide any quran or hadeeth to base it on- happens every time)
so anyway- this woman had her eyes cast to heaven in some supplicatory pose and the flag drawn over her face and it looked creepy and i commented that i was a kid during the vietnam war and alot of people wore flags on the bottoms and everywhere as a statement of rejection of the american value or lack thereof system-
and i wrote that they were also burning draft cards and fag burning- and we have to be consideate of some peoples emotional attachment to the flag even if we dont share it-

then i had to repost and indicate that i in no way endorse setting homosexuals on fire...

so out of consideration i should pay more attention to not make it difficult for people to read- but you have to admit thats a little bit funny..
peace

Jihadist,

Nice to meet you too! Enjoy your chicken!

Victoria,

I wish we could play that game. Unfortunately, all I have seen of late is more ignorance. And, don't worry about your typing style. It makes it easier to find you!

Mary, I wish I could give you explanations, but I can't - just sympathy. I wish you the best in your search for answers.

Personally, I've accepted that there are a lot of things that I will never have answers for in this lifetime. Who knows, maybe there's a "next lifetime" in some form or another and I'll find them there. For now I try to accept events as they happen and focus on the present moment, what's happening right now. When I am able to do that, it is what brings me joy, peace, and the sense of a life worth living.

I think I'm in my most "formative" experience right now. My baby son, with whom I was four months pregnant, died this past fall. Along with the intense grief came questions about God. I consider myself a Christian and am active in a faith community, but suddenly I found myself alienated from both in different ways. I am beginning to pray and participate again, but everything has changed.

Because of my miscarriage, I've found myself in fruitful, but painful transformation. Death is very much in the center of Christianity, but it had never really been personalized for me until now. That alone has changed my outlook, even as I continue to pray to a God who allows such terrible things to happen. I live with this paradox because I've never thought my faith was very rational, and I like it that way.

I've also found that many people have spiritual thoughts about miscarriage. For me, I feel comforted because I know that my son is safe with the Lord. My Buddhist neighbor, a very kind Vietnamese woman, told me not to worry because "he'll come back" when I get pregnant again; she feels he changed his mind about being born. At the time, I didn't really want to hear what she was saying, but now that time has passed and I am less raw, I'm interested in the explanations others have for this sort of tragedy.

In any case, coming face-to-face with death has really turned the page for me. Strangely, I'm rather looking forward to what I can learn from this.

Re: Gail in Milwaukee :
"One more thing, On the issue of Hell as a repository for bad people...

If we are, as Chtisitanity teaches, made in the image and likeness of God, and we are supposedly his most favorite creatures, why would he cast any of us to hell to suffer for eternity?

I don't buy it."

I agree..I dont buy it either. Todays view of hell stems from superstition, folklore, twisted middle-ages clergy thought, etc etc. The hell modern religion touts does not exist. The Bible, when correctly translated from the Hebrew and Greek, shows only, at final judgement, a consuming fire for those who do not choose to follow God when all is said and done. Consuming- meaning it consumes..not live forever in torment. There is no going to heaven, there is no going to hell. Scripture says that those in the grave sleep until Christs return. Gods kingdom will be set up on earth when Jesus Christ return. There are to be several resurrections, one at Jesus' return (for those who have died in the true faith), and another after His 1000 yr. reign on earth (for all who have never had the chance to know God's true way of life, those who were confused, etc). God has a plan...man, as a whole, just doesnt see it yet. Eternity is real, but not going to be playing harps on clouds...but rather rebuilding this earth, living in peace and going forward from there.

Victoria :

I enjoyed your reply to Robin. Your wise, light hearted and honest words are a welcome addition to this forum. Thanks.

When the last believer is strangled in the entrails of the last Republican all will finally be well.

triumph over a tragedy
human dialogue or interfaith dialogue ,where every belive is a faith even those who they claim that they donot have a faith or belive.,human dialogue is simply a human dialogue,it wd not exceed the square lock of humanism,who they are very unindepended,( stop breathing for 5 minutes to test how depended we are ).human dialogue need divine supervision,other wise is a human monologue ,a court hall with no judge.the divine judge decide what is right and what is wrong,this is a man and that is a woman,this is truth and this is false.where to find the divine judgement,look for the divine revelation,mercey to humankind.

Robin, good to know you. I'll have breakfast, elevenses, lunch, tea, dinner, supper anytime, everytime, anywhere, everywhere with you.

At least you are not a hypocrite. God in the Quran hates hypocrites and your questions are valid, not nitpicking :)

warmest regards, and peace be upon you always.

Here is my most formative religious experience, as an atheist.

I was about 9 or 10. My family just moved into a new neighborhood and I had met a girl around my own age. I think she was like 2 years older. Anyway, we were outside talking and this is part of a conversation we had.

Now I need to state, first, that my family was not what you would call religious by any stretch, although I did know about God and Jesus and had attended some, very little, sunday school.

She asked me what church my family went to and I replied we didn't have one. She told me about hers. Then she asked if I was baptized and I said no I wasn't. She said she was as a baby and she informed me that if I died I was going to hell. And she filled me in on some more gory details.

I got home and I ran right away to my mother and told her of the conversation we had and of course immediately asked her if I was gonna go to hell if I died without being baptized?

My mother than explained to me the protestant way.

Then I asked her if we had two different gods? She said no, one god. Then I asked well how come its not the same for everyone?

Looking back, that was the day I began my atheistic journey. At the age of 9 or 10, I knew then that what I was being told didn't make sense.

It has been said that I am just a theist who is angry at god. (by more people and times that I can recall) And while I will admit, I don't understand this concept of an all loving god, who sits idly by watching everything unravel while turning his/hers/its head. My atheism stemmed not out of anger, more from confusion and nonsensicle answers to genuine questions. It certainly did not get better as I got older and was introduced past the catholic and protestant religions.

Now there was a whole variety to pick from. How does one decide? Flip a coin, pick one out of a hat? I know there are some that go on a spiritual journey to find what best fits. But how does one know that is the real god? or set of dogmas? I guess I just choose to err on the side of living my life trying to be the best person I can be for *myself and the society* I live in.

Thanks for your time.

thanks- yes i defy antyone to see much of a difference in our sories- maybe we could play a game-spot the athesit-theist-hee hee

Victoria,

You were telling about a religious experience ie: the kitten story. I did not intend to rip that away from you. By telling my very similar kitten story, I just wanted to show that as an atheist, I found the same beauty in my story as I had in yours. Without the use or need for god to have brought me that conquest of caring for them.

Personally, I have never thought of a believer has having less intelligence. Coming from a religious background, I would not be that arrogant to make that assumption. You have shown yourself on this site to be a very intelligent well rounded human being.

In many ways I envy that. It has been mostly a pleasure to read you throught these threads. You are not out of your element, unless you have no room for understanding and acceptance. I haven't seen that with you at all.

Take care,

and I promise to quit nit picking!

well- im a totally right brained human and clearly logic even the most primitive invented in the spur of the moment - i even changed the letter around - so i promise to stay away from that subject-
or at least not try to make it up-

as far as trying to prove that god exists logically- since iave noe talent orinclination for left brained thinking- its never been a desire-
my proccupations ave allways leaned to art and poetry and mysticism and ive never had a desire to change that- i was tested very young and deemed a spatial thinker i guess someone felt a need to logically categorize me- the older i get the less i try to stuff things into boxes-

i cant explain faith to a scientifically inclined mind- it was my sad little attempt to do so-

my impetus always goes to intention- the core driving motivation behind things- which is very subjective i think-

even the idea of proving god logically misses the boat for me- like proving love- idont want to live without either- but im not going to decide for anyone else- also tho they cant decide for me-

i wouldnt make fun of someone for their lack of belief - but i wouldnt think their intelligence was greater simply because they ask if its logical- i had my own experiences and observations
with the existence of god- and i dont see anything superior in the explanation of human nature in science- whereas in religion the are laws of the universe that i have found reproduible and true-

simple things- people often accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of- not logical but true-

again it goes to intention-
everyone doesnt always do that but when peered at closely it is most often the case nless on e is trying to get another to take responsibility for their actions thru self critique-

i choose to have suspicions for the best intentions until proven wrong-

taking time to tear someone elses beliefs apart is a fruitless exercise in mental masturbation to me and based soetimes on bad intentions-

not you robin of course thats a very valid question

you can see im out of my element in this topic

ok peace

Jihadist,

Good thing soya is now added. Its my understanding is also good for the weight challenged chicken feed loving ones of us! *wink*

And I truly am not here to pick on Victoria, even if it appears that way as I am nit picking some of the words she uses.

But they do bring up questions in my mind to ask. Which is what dialogue is about. Correct?

I am a naturalist. I reject all supernatural explanations. I do not believe that anything can be above, beyond or separate from nature. In fact I believe that "spiritual" progress depends on an honest appraisal of self and of the Universe.
I have had an out-of-body experience and a white light experience. But I interpret these as a moving within; immanescence. That is indicative of a closer alignment with reality. But my theories on natural spirituality stem from an experience of attaining buddhist enlightenment.
I was walking to work in the early morning and the sun was just beginning to rise. I remember puffs of neon red clouds drifting slowly across the sky. As was my habit, I was involved in deep introspection and analysis of the contents of my mind. Weeks earlier I had identified a particular mental construct in my mind - a core existential self with characteristics we would normally associate with a soul. I was annoyed that this supernatural construct of self should be in my mind. Yet, being an attitude it was resistant to change. There was fear behind any thoughts about changing it.
So that morning I was thinking about the construct for the umpteenth time. As I walked to the middle of a traffic circle, I thought that the fear behind the construct of self was evidence that it was not real.
Just as I thought that, I had the physical sensation that something was falling away from me. It was as if I had been living in a box up to that point and the sides were now falling away.
I immediately experienced a great joy and feeling of one-ness with all things. I also felt more mentally energetic as if an impediment had been removed. I underwent a profound change in my personality becoming more engaging and personable. So much so that when I remember back to the time before my enlightenment it does not seem like me.
Now I am developing a natural, psychological theory of enlightenment and spirituality.
Zen.Psychology@Yahoo.com

Just before my early teens, I read the Code of Jewish Law on the topic of masturbation. It said that this "terrible" practice would grow hair on my palms, give me bad breath and body odor and other bad side effects.

Since, of course, I couldn't end this practice, I felt terribly guilty until a newspaper columnist quoting medical science wrote that masturbation was totally harmless.

Since then, I haven't believed anything that any organized religion of any type said was the truth and I haven't been bothered by religion at all, only by the people who still believe this nonsense.

Would that I could convince Newsweek and everybody else to also give it up.

If God would use this blog what would he say?

Enough already!

There were famous prophets a couple of times who were mistakenly quoted to have said, "Rise Up, O Ye Faithful!!"

In reality they said, "Wise Up, O Ye Faithful!"

Yea, verily.

Anyway, we have to mix in to the stuggle to figure out what people mean when they speak (type) the struggle to figure out if they mean what they say (type).

Robin, you're a hoot :)

No one says the Quran is reasonable. Nor are secular laws reasonable if one does not agree with them.

I can't say for the Bible, but for the Quran, till today, Muslim muftis, clerics and imams, and most of all laymen, are interpreting and reinterpreting the text. There is at least four different schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam.

Fatwas (legal or religious opinions) can be issued, but Muslims are free to accept or ignore them. After all, Islam is not an "organized church", except for Shiite Islam.

Sunnis regard since they have direct access to God, hence no one can really tell them what God meant and said in the Quran. Hence, the "mess" in the Islamic world as to whom speak for Islam.

Chicken feed now also can comprise soya. And chicken fed on corn, wheat, rice and soya are delicious and life sustaining.

Brad,

If your serious and the only thing keeping you from partying, breaking the law and doing whatever you wanted is your religion, that is very scary for the rest of society.

I should hope you would think better of yourself and your fellow man to want to be a better person and citizen than that.

By the way, it would appear that your religious teachings are not really doing much for you, if you can make this blanket claim.

Becky: most scholars regard the Book of Acts as bad history.

Dorothy....

Heh.
What a fine line it is twixt farce and, um, reality.

I think.

Brad, maybe it's good that you have a religion!

Thankfully, a lot of the people I meet have don't harm others because of a sense of compassion and empathy. It's too bad that you were never given the chance for that compassion to develop when you were young.

If I knew the world was gonna end in two days the only thing that would keep me from partying and breaking the law and eoing whatever I wanted would definelty my religion.

Jihadist

Hence I like chicken
chicken like chicken feed
therefore I like chicken feed.

The fact that chicken feed is comprised of corn,wheat,rice.

The fact that I do eat those things I guess in some way it could be a logical claim that I like chicken feed. or the things that comprise it.

or in your own words:

you make it up as it seems reasonable to you.

I guess that is what the authors of the bible and koran could claim as well?