Readers’ Responses to Our Question (1106)

Who was Jesus? And what was His purpose?

I'm new here, but I think it fair to say that I was a questioning Christian since about age sixteen. Not that I questioned the eternal purpose, BUT over the past forty-some years, I have posed most of the questions I've read here and on other forums. Some things just didn't add up.

I've always felt that I was unworthy of Jesus' sacrifice, and felt that I could never live up to the standards needed to attain heaven. To be honest, I often experienced FEAR that I could NEVER lead a life worthy of God's acceptance. I knew there was MORE that I was unable to grasp...and prayed for clarity to all the questions I had no answers for. I was almost ready to give up, when I discovered the following website:

http://bible-truths.com/

The website, and webmaster, make perfect SENSE-- there is no room left for ambiguity. This site is for Christians, Athiests, Muslims, Jews, et al...for it is so clear that even a child can understand it.

Now I have a more meaningful relationship with God...for I know His purpose for my life, for my family's life, and for all mankind. Some may not agree, but to me--it was a blessing to finally realize that God's plan is "alive and well"...and it doesn't matter what WE think or do...HE is in charge and His purpose WILL be achieved in the end. More than anything else, it explained EXACTLY who Jesus was...what HIS life was about, what His death was for, and how I must now LIVE a righteous life, simply because God was looking ahead and saw my faults...BUT still had ME in mind when He planned eternity.

Agreeing to disagree isn't the answer for anyone anymore...we ALL need something (with evidence) to hold on to in these last days. Otherwise, why would any of us be posting here? We've all been searching at one time or another. I simply want to share my findings with all...in hopes that it can
answer others' questions, as mine were answered when I found the website. It has changed MY life. I honor God and Jesus for the right reasons now...NOT out of fear...I do so willingly in THANKS for His eternal plan. THIS may not be YOUR answer...but it certainly helped me to look forward to the future with assurance.

The website listed above has made me LOVE our God SO much more -- and honor Him for His perfect plan for mankind.

P.S. There is scriptural backing for EVERY topic listed on this site, if you take time to read.

In Christ's love,
Brynn

To Tommy O:

Jesus’ parents were Jewish. He was born in the Middle East. He was a carpenter at one time. Near the end of his earthly life he threw out those buying and selling in the temple. He also turned over the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. So he had to be strong. This is information found in the Bible. Can you get a general idea of his appearance?

Considering the Bible offers no description of the physical appearance of Jesus, why would I not put my "faith" in the teachings of Confucius?

Jesus, the son of god lives on Earth and there is no record of what he looked like. Curious.

Jesus “is” the son of God.

God said so. (Matthew 3:16-17) 16 After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

The angels said so. (Luke 1:35) 35 In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.

Jesus acknowledged he was the Son of God. (Matthew 26:62-64) 62 With that the high priest stood up and said to him: “Have you no answer? What is it these are testifying against you?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it].

(John 8:54) 54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God;

His disciples knew him as God’s Son. (John 20:31) 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

Jesus acknowledged that his disciples’ belief in him as the Son of God was correct. (Matthew 16:13-17)13 Now when he had come into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus went asking his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?” 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.”

Even the demons recognized Jesus as the son of God. (Matthew 8:28-29) 28 When he (Jesus) got to the other side, into the country of the Gadarenes´, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?”
What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God? Jesus’ life course can be divided into three stages. The first began long before his human birth. His origin was “from early times, from the days of time indefinite,” says Micah 5:2 . Jesus himself said: “I am from the realms above”—that is, from heaven. (John 8:23)) He had been in heaven as a mighty spirit person.
Since all created things had a beginning, there was a time when God was alone. Countless ages ago, however, God became a Creator. The last book of the Bible identifies Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.” That is so “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.” (Colossians 1:15,16) According to the Bible, Jesus was the only one directly created by God himself. Therefore, he is called God’s “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16)
That close association with Jehovah for untold ages deeply affected God’s Son. This obedient Son came to be just like his Father, Jehovah. In fact, Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God.” This is one reason why knowledge about Jesus is vital in satisfying our spiritual need and our natural desire to know God. Everything Jesus did while on earth is exactly what Jehovah expected him to do. Hence, getting to know Jesus also means increasing our knowledge of Jehovah.(John 8:28, 14:8-10)

It seems arguable that there was an historical individual who has since served as the model for the eponymous central figure of Christianity. But he (evidently male) had little or nothing in common with that central figure. So far, the historical individual is not known to have left any evidence of his existence, but there are some things that can be plausible inferred.

Unfortunately for those who would propose one or another religious canonical attributes, none of these survive placement in the historical context of the times. What we know is that the Persian colony of Judea had been generally left hanging by the Macedonians who conquered the Achaemid Empire in the 4th century BCE. Although the Greeks tried to corral it into the Grecian culture, the erstwhile Judeans managed to regain control. Until Pompei invested Jerusalem in the 1st century BCE (around 60 BCE).

Because of this heritage of militant and cultural harassment, there had developed a movement that looked for a Davidic warlord to arise and clean house (run the Romans back into the sea). That warlord would be a savior, a restorer of the Davidic throne and thus a mesha (messiah). The political movement that supported this expectation was, in large part, the rebel zealots (those who were "zealous of the (Mosaic) Law". Naturally, Rome regarded them as outlaws to be quelled and submitted to Roman justice.

It must be recognized that the nation of Judea was not religiously homogenic: there were other "cults" who were variously disposed to Mosaic legalism. One of these is given by Josephus and other relatively contemporary writers as the Essen(oi). Josephus seems to suggest that the Essen(oi) was a general term for a variety of said "cults".

Recent evidence arguably supports a long held contention that these cults conferred titles now interpreted as personal names or attributes. One such was the "Son of Man", re-invented later as the "Son of God". In general, the Judeans had long used code terms in their written communications, just as beleagured national cultures have done even unto modern times. So it was easy to appropriate one or more of these terms and propose it to mean whatever served the then current agenda.

In connection with the individual in question, the historical figure of James the Just seems to have been attested independently, and it has been suggested (however poorly received) that James' death was the spark for the rebellion that resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 CE. Some scholars (Robert Eisenman in particular) have inferred the existence of a historical Jesus from that of James. But that is as far as legitimate scholars have gone in this regard.

What is well known and understood is that the expatriate Judeans (Jews) managed at one point to have engaged fully half of the military might of the Roman Empire. Which is arguably why the Romans razed Jerusalem after running Simon bar Kochba (the last false messiah) out into the wilderness). So far as we know, all that ended with the mass suicide at Masada.

After this, Judaism was outlawed and Jews were subject to summary trial and execution; it has been said that Rome put a hefty price on the head of any Judaic royalty which has not been lifted to this day. The Diasporic Jews fled in all directions, but there was already a conclave of Grecianized Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. And the evidence of history strongly suggests that it was in Alexandria that a legalized form of Jewish worship was developed.

Apparently, the concensus was that Yahveh really didn't care about His physical properties (Jerusalem and the Temple) because he was of an entirely non-physical nature, existing (ruling?) an equally non-physical realm. It's convenient to label this state and this realm as spirit and spiritual, a state and realm to which certain qualified people could claim as their heritage.

This was all well and good, because the Roman Empire had long looked to the Greeks as the source of their antiquity, and thus the source of authentic culture. And this solution was quite amenable to the Greeks, possessing as they did an intensely intellectual and philosophical cast to their culture. So this form of the messianic movement, now acculturized, was sold the the Grecianized areas. Note: messiah == christos.

This began to take the pressure off the Grecianized Jews and their God Fearer brethren of other national cultures, and Rome started to back off from its policy of persecution. However, Rome itself had undergone an internal fragmentation, a consequence of over-expansion, which resulted in the period of the four emperors, two caesars and two augustus. Each of which had headquarters outside of Rome itself.

Inevitably, this broke down and it was Constantine who re-merged the Emperorship, choosing to move the headquarters to what is now Istanbul, renaming it Constantinople. It was this move that more than anything else shook up the Empire, leaving it with a very different demographic structure. And of course Constantine was concerned to consolidate the new Empire (now the Byzantine Empire).

He had been passively neutral to this new Christian cult, and remained so until his death. As a national policy, however, Christianity had to be de-criminalized in order to satisfy the demographic, and it was the execution of this policy that did in Lucian, the last co-Emperor. Immediately, Constantine set about formalizing Christianity, and called a council at Nicaea, his country villa across the Bosporus.

What he found was that the Alexandrian movement had consolidated enough power to provide an adequate template for that formalization; he intended to incorporate Christianity under the more militant Roman state religion banner, together with Mithraism and Sol Invictus, for example. But immediately there was an apparently intractable problem: The Christ figure was held as the head of the now legal Christianity, and that was unacceptable to Constantine.

So after much acrimony, the council decided that the Christos figure had to be non-physical as well, leaving Constantine as the head of the religion. The problem was that now the Christos figure had to be reconciled with the already non-physical Yahveh, a problem that has yet to be resolved.

And that, folks, is how the Christian religion began. Like it or not, it was the result of quite mundane political necessities, just like its progeniture, Judaism.

One can claim the Jesus was/is the Son of God. Or not. One can claim that Jesus was/is "The Christ". Or not. One can make any claim that one likes, but one cannot assert as fact what is false to evidence and go unchallenged.

One can reasonably grant that current cultural traditions mandate certain claims, and that very many people find those claims to be socially and psychologically useful; probably many if not most of these people are addicted thus. But one must recognize the legitimacy of such a grant to traditions other than Christianity, especially Judaism and Islam.

The point is that there are attested historical answers to the question of the identity and nature of the Christ figure, and all else is only opinion.

William D. Tallman

The founders of Christianity, created a larger-than-life being they believed would bring them followers--and it did. However, they unwittingly imparted to Christ their own human frailties. Nevertheless, the number of followers increased dramatically once government and ecclesiastical authorities joined forces and made acceptance of Christianity mandatory.

They could not credit their “Lord and Savior” with bringing peace, curing leprosy, preventing famine or eliminating poverty. It was obvious and indisputable that all of humankind’s maladies were as prevalent after Christ as before Christ. Christ’s proponents circumvented this problem by declaring that life on earth didn’t matter as believers would spend eternity in paradise. As a subterfuge for Christ’s failure to cure diseases, etc., the proponents of the new religion disseminated stories about Christ performing miracles. It did not matter how farfetched the Gospels were. Beginning in the fourth century torture insured that they were “true.” I’ll bet with enough torture, the world could be made flat.

Christ’s creators did their best to put profound words in His mouth. However, anyone analyzing what Christ said will find that very little He said was meaningful. His words were primarily a public relations effort to promote a new religion.

In essence, the Gospels are little more than a threat, “Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and bow before His God or suffer horrible consequences.”

Thomas & Ross & JVST,

1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.

2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct? And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????

3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???

Muslims are using this topic to prosletyse for their religion while Atheists are using the teachings and practices of Islam to discredit all theists.
Muslims claim that their Holy Book was never altered , which is not true. There were many different versions of that book and the Caliph Uthman ibn Affan gathered those copies and burned all but one which became the standard version. As for its infallibility , I cannot help but concur with Voltaire who said " every page in it is an insult to human rationality".

It seems to me that the question upon which this forum is based, "Who was Jesus?", misses the facts entirely. Jesus Christ never existed. He is a fictional character created by people who wanted to use people's worship of the Sun to their advantage. The details of his life were plagiarized from those of the pagan prophets who came before him: Born on the 25th of December of a virgin mother and visited by three kings, became a teacher at 12, began his work at 30, had 12 disciples, rose from the dead three days after his crucifiction - even the miracles he performed were the same as the prophets before him. Most of these characteristics are shared by dozens of previous prophets of other religions around the world, and most of them are based on the behaviour of celestial bodies like the star Sirius, the three stars of Orion's belt, and the Sun, as well as twelve signs of the Zodiac. Hence, the transformation of Sun worship to the worship of an actual man.
In addition, I find it odd, to say the least, that 'Jesus' was born in the Roman Empire, at the peak of that empire's power, and not a single historian even so much as mentions him. An era of high culture, excellent record keeping, and relatively high literacy, and of all the historians who were active at the time, not one felt like mentioning a man who could walk on water and turn water into wine. This begs the question: "If Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not completed until a century and a half after the death of 'Jesus Christ', what did they use for their historical evidence?" I couldn't write about Winston Churchill without any sort of historical notation, much less someone who healed the sick with his touch.
Finally, in response to Moody: I hardly think a Muslim is in a position to gloat about the 'superiority' of Islam. Even if Muhammed existed, he was a marauding warlord and a pedophile, who gave his victims three options: conversion, slavery (dhimmitude) or death. Since the Islamic world never experienced equivalents to the Reformation or the Rennaissance, not very much has changed.

It seems to me that the question upon which this forum is based, "Who was Jesus?", misses the facts entirely. Jesus Christ never existed. He is a fictional character created by people who wanted to use people's worship of the Sun to their advantage. The details of his life were plagiarized from those of the pagan prophets who came before him: Born on the 25th of December of a virgin mother and visited by three kings, became a teacher at 12, began his work at 30, had 12 disciples, rose from the dead three days after his crucifiction - even the miracles he performed were the same as the prophets before him. Most of these characteristics are shared by dozens of previous prophets of other religions around the world, and most of them are based on the behaviour of celestial bodies like the star Sirius, the three stars of Orion's belt, and the Sun, as well as twelve signs of the Zodiac. Hence, the transformation of Sun worship to the worship of an actual man.
In addition, I find it odd, to say the least, that 'Jesus' was born in the Roman Empire, at the peak of that empire's power, and not a single historian even so much as mentions him. An era of high culture, excellent record keeping, and relatively high literacy, and of all the historians who were active at the time, not one felt like mentioning a man who could walk on water and turn water into wine. This begs the question: "If Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not completed until a century and a half after the death of 'Jesus Christ', what did they use for their historical evidence?" I couldn't write about Winston Churchill without any sort of historical notation, much less someone who healed the sick with his touch.
Finally, in response to Moody: I hardly think a Muslim is in a position to gloat about the 'superiority' of Islam. Even if Muhammed existed, he was a marauding warlord and a pedophile, who gave his victims three options: conversion, slavery (dhimmitude) or death. Since the Islamic world never experienced equivalents to the Reformation or the Rennaissance, not very much has changed.

Thomas Baum,

I don't mind your language because by now I came to conclusion that it is common norm in west, false accusations and slinging dirt on others IGNORING CONCRETE PROOFS.
And now in reply to your post: BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY,
AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.

Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self.

1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."

2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????

3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:

(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).

4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?

5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig in forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.

6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).

7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!

8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.

When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when she had told that to the Jews, they would have believed it???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them to be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????

9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.

10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.

11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.

So I am asking you a question:

Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???

The question should not be, "Who was Jesus?," but rather, "Who IS He?" Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and at the same time, He IS God. The same yesterday, today, forever.

He's God, He's My Savior & He's My Friend...That's Who Jesus IS.

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I may be late to the discussion, but I believe Jesus was the son of God. I believe He is the way to Heaven and that we live in a fallen world because of sin. It is my belief and I think that our nation has turned away from that because we tolerate everything and we didn't back in the 50's and 60's and 70's. Our morals and our society has suffered due to the lack of a "line." We have erased the line and we compromise our values for the sake of tolerance. We allow too much in society today and there is often no price to pay.

What says about Jesus and other who were sent before him.

"Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation Given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, And the Tribes, and that given Moses and Jesus, and that given To (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference Between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah".

So if they believe As ye believe, they are indeed On the right path; but if They turn back, it is they Who are in schism; but Allah will Suffice thee as against them, And He is the All-Hearing, The All-Knowing. {S 2.A. 136-137}.

We are thus in the true line of those who follow the one and indivisible Message of the One Allah, wherever delivered. If others narrow it or corrupt it, it is they who have left the faith and crerated a division or schism. But Allah sees and Knows all. And He will protect His own, and His support will be infinitely more precious than the support which men can give.

Dear friend, what do you think about this faith, faith which generalize all Messages from their Lord without differentiating or preferences.

"That they said (in boast), "we killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messanger of Allah", But they killed him not, Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. {S 4. A. 157}

The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some his enemies: that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah.

As many Christians believe that Jesus was killed by Jews, however here Islam come in to deffend justice, eventhough their relationship look otherwise, but justice should be tell and serve.

What says about Jesus and other who were sent before him.

"Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation Given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, And the Tribes, and that given Moses and Jesus, and that given To (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference Between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah".

So if they believe As ye believe, they are indeed On the right path; but if They turn back, it is they Who are in schism; but Allah will Suffice thee as against them, And He is the All-Hearing, The All-Knowing. {S 2.A. 136-137}.

We are thus in the true line of those who follow the one and indivisible Message of the One Allah, wherever delivered. If others narrow it or corrupt it, it is they who have left the faith and crerated a division or schism. But Allah sees and Knows all. And He will protect His own, and His support will be infinitely more precious than the support which men can give.

Dear friend, what do you think about this faith, faith which generalize all Messages from their Lord without differentiating or preferences.

"That they said (in boast), "we killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messanger of Allah", But they killed him not, Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. {S 4. A. 157}

The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some his enemies: that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah.

As many Christians believe that Jesus was killed by Jews, however here Islam come in to deffend justice, eventhough their relationship look otherwise, but justice should be tell and serve.

What says about Jesus and other who were sent before him.

"Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation Given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, And the Tribes, and that given Moses and Jesus, and that given To (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference Between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah".

So if they believe As ye believe, they are indeed On the right path; but if They turn back, it is they Who are in schism; but Allah will Suffice thee as against them, And He is the All-Hearing, The All-Knowing. {S 2.A. 136-137}.

We are thus in the true line of those who follow the one and indivisible Message of the One Allah, wherever delivered. If others narrow it or corrupt it, it is they who have left the faith and crerated a division or schism. But Allah sees and Knows all. And He will protect His own, and His support will be infinitely more precious than the support which men can give.

Dear friend, what do you think about this faith, faith which generalize all Messages from their Lord without differentiating or preferences.

"That they said (in boast), "we killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messanger of Allah", But they killed him not, Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. {S 4. A. 157}

The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some his enemies: that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah.

As many Christians believe that Jesus was killed by Jews, however here Islam come in to deffend justice, eventhough their relationship look otherwise, but justice should be tell and serve.

Jesus will be back soon to settle this question. Maranatha!

I believe most people who believe in Jesus and consider themselves religious, and sincerely try and follow his teachings, are basically good people.

I also think it is good to adjust or modify your beliefs based on your own experiences and evolving understanding, especially when certain life experiences teach you that what you've been taught from childhood is in part erroneous or in need of revision.

Was Jesus the son of God. Well, yes. But aren't all of us a son or daughter of God, at least in terms of the Spirit that animates us.

I think that Spirit was fully awakened in one such as Jesus, but I also believe we all have the potential to awaken it to the same degree as He. And that each in his or her own way should strive to do so.

It's an inner experience of Spirit that is important. Words, scripture, sacred teachings all have their place ........ as stepping stones to the awakening of an inner radiance in one's own consciousness.

Don't seek for concepts, seek for the experience. The direct experience of Spirit is the savior. Any path that leads to it is the right path.

To anonymous who responded to my paragraph.If you choose in your own way to degrade someone elses knowledge and understanding, that simply reflects how much work is left for you to in your search for truth.
As I had stated in my first brief paragraph there is much more to explain. You in turn in stead of being open to that type discussion choose to lessen my explanation of truth. You know not my source. In response to what you wrote.Your concept of divinity is not accurate. To explain a bit fruther regarding Christ. Christ(Amellious) being the first soul of all souls of Creator.From Him the reast of us were birthed. When Christ was on earth and said you to can do what I do and even greater. IS a guide of explanation that we all have Divinity and the potential of the first Soul Amellious who then was Christ. If we choose to do right with the Creator. That is part as to why earth is like a school. It is for the resolve of our soul essence to perfection, not sacraficing parts of what we are. None is greater than another, we all have the same potential in soul.

Mike Peter - You've been reading too much Edgar Cayce fantasy.

Christos was a term for the inner divinity within all people that can be brought into one's awareness to elevate one to one's highest mind and creative potential.

It is the birth of the inner sun/son by immaculate conception...you give birth to your own higher self.

Take a course on allegory and metaphor and stop believing in fairy tales.

Divinity is that which is WITHIN EACH BEING WHEN WE SACRIFICE OUR ANIMAL SELVES TO OUR HIGHER GOD-LIKE SELVES.

Give yourself some credit for the very power and magnificence within your own being.

As per a direct communication with Arc Angel Gabriel. After Creator God created form, light,dimensions, umong other things, Creator than choose to give to the sharing of all Creator created. Creator than pushed forth from Its own self the first soul which Creator named Amellious. From Amellious than all other souls were born. Over many eons and for reasons I can explain at another time after souls came to the orb of earth and some became entrapped in the material, that is when Creator asked its first amellious and He came to assist. Over many incarnations than amellious was incarnated on the earth. Many times as what we call a religious leader. The final incarnation in human form on earth to show us the way is when Amellious was Christ.. I will explain more later. But there is much much more than this brief explanation..

As per a direct communication with Arc Angel Gabriel. After Creator God created form, light,dimensions, umong other things, Creator than choose to give to the sharing of all Creator created. Creator than pushed forth from Its own self the first soul which Creator named Amellious. From Amellious than all other souls were born. Over many eons and for reasons I can explain at another time after souls came to the orb of earth and some became entrapped in the material, that is when Creator asked its first amellious and He came to assist. Over many incarnations than amellious was incarnated on the earth. Many times as what we call a religious leader. The final incarnation in human form on earth to show us the way is when Amellious was Christ.. I will explain more later. But there is much much more than this brief explanation..

As per a direct communication with Arc Angel Gabriel. After Creator God created form, light,dimensions, umong other things, Creator than choose to give to the sharing of all Creator created. Creator than pushed forth from Its own self the first soul which Creator named Amellious. From Amellious than all other souls were born. Over many eons and for reasons I can explain at another time after souls came to the orb of earth and some became entrapped in the material, that is when Creator asked its first amellious and He came to assist. Over many incarnations than amellious was incarnated on the earth. Many times as what we call a religious leader. The final incarnation in human form on earth to show us the way is when Amellious was Christ.. I will explain more later. But there is much much more than this brief explanation..

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Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary and if there was any immaculate conception it took place on clean straw in the far corner of the barn. If any God was involved it may have been God help us, or in God we trust all others cash or for God sake take care I want to keep my dress clean. He grew up to be a bit of a trouble maker and like Martin Luther did years later over Indulgences, fell foul of the church leaders when he evicted their business representatives (money lenders) from the Temple.Because of his communistic rabble rousing talk he also upset the Romans. Their fear was
of competition for the job of emperor and meant he was soon struggling up hill carrying a large cross. Carrying with it also the best wishes of the Clergy of the day to help him on his way. Their reaction being "Why not let the Romans kill one bird with two stones." The usual business in money-lending to resume Monday post Crucifixion. Unbeknown to the Church of the day Jesus had arranged with a couple of his closest associates to remove his body from the Tomb and make out he had risen to heaven. The ruse worked and 2000 odd years later the worlds first conman is still taking the suckers to the cleaners.

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Hello all; I'm back!

To Mr. Mark: Thank you for your gracious reply. I'm always wary of posting on public places such as these for fear of people ganging up on me - it has happened before; not pleasant, but I handled it quite well. As to us being somewhat alike, I agree. I actually do see the logic behind a lot of atheistic arguments because those ones make up part of my view in the world, albeit a view that includes God. The arguments that get my goat are generalizations and personal opinions brought out as solid arguments. They don't make me think or evaluate my faith at all; they just irritate.

[digresson] However, even as I question my faith, I don't think I'll ever renounce my belief in God entirely, as there is a fundamental reason to my belief in God's existence and the existence of an afterlife, which is personal to me and not to be divulged here. [/end digression]

I may not be on here a lot either, as life generally gets in the way...

Good luck to those who continue to post in this thread.

Cheers,
Rose

Gerry, Fate, Acrapist, Mr. Mark, James, Joseph A., A Hermit, Falk Steinle and the rest:

THE CHALLENGE!

(Go to the main thread on "Why Atheism")

One exercise that I do for myself is to try and argue the various sides of a debate and attempt to give (what I would consider) a fair and “winning” accounting of each one. There are several benefits to doing this: you keep yourself sharp, you are better able to anticipate what must necessarily come next in a systematically consistent logical construct, you waste less time dueling with straw men, and it’s just plain courteous to try and understand where another person is coming from without putting words in their mouths or claiming that you know what they “really mean”.

So here is what I propose. I would like to see the various people in our circle of friends that frequently post here attempt to define the strengths of Christian thought on morality (pick your brand) and also the strong points of whatever Atheistic take on morality you choose to define. The contribution to this entire discussion could be huge (if done well) as we would could prove to each other that we might in fact understand the other position. Then the field would be clear to explain WHY we find a particular view lacking! Sounds fun right? So what do ya say?

"Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God?"

YES!

God died for my sins. He didn't send someone else to do his dirty work. That's how much he loves us!

foundationchurch.org

Jesus is the Messenger of God. His message was that of all the messengers of God, which is there is only one God. Worship God alone and nothing else.

Jesus is GOD. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born into the world as a human to do the will of GOD which is perfection without blemish.
Jesus had so much compassion he took everyone of mankinds sin and died for them so we would not have to slaughter lambs for each and everyone of our sins.
Jesus was pure and very smart. He spoke in parables to fools he wanted to reach so that they would not burn in eternal hell. And to the rest he spoke regular language.
Jesus was among sinners, but was not one.
Jesus was a teacher.
Jesus is my ABBA.
God Bless Everyone!
Beth

Take to offence:
An Atheist will always deny the existence of Jesus, as will the other mythical religions..

The people of scriptures (Jews, Christians & Muslims):

Me as a Muslim I will always say, Jesus was a Messenger of God, Jews Don't, the reason is not understandable to me; if moses could be a messenger of God, why cant be jesus? Christians made him God for some reason; Is it to feel superior than the Jews? Bible testifyes God sending messengers after messengers to Guide the mankind; why should he suddenly come himself before 2007 years to excuse mankind from the original sin?? Does it mean that Adam and eve and all the mesengers mentioned in Bible were also not pure souls; as they were bearing the burden of so called original sin? while son does not bear the responsibility of fathers sin, how illogical for me to bear the responsibility of sin committed by adam and eve?? does it not make the christians think?? How can god die? why does god need to become a man to do something? An engineer does not need to become a television to understand the problems of a television he just made....

No where in the bible jesus claims in his words to be the God. Now another problem when you talk about bible, the next immediate question is, which bible? there are so many versions. It can even be changed today, because the bible is not collected verbatim as it came down to Jesus the prophet from God, Jesus passed the messages and later after his death, some of his deciples or companions started writing, so there was always scope of the words of jesus the humanbeing and the narrator getting into the book. So those human words created confusions and disagreements leading to factions.

The same problem have happened in a different way with Islam as well; while some people started collecting the words of Muhammad the human being; confusions were created and lead to some division.

The beauty is, that The Quran is the words of Allah (God), which was recorded as it came. So You can find words of Allah correcting mistakes made by Muhammad as well.

There is only one version of Quran for last 1400 (Approx) years, since it came. Allah says that it will remain the same and that's His responsibility to keep it like that. None can change it, There is no mistake, no ambiguity, it is Humanly impossible for any humanbeing to write a book with such precision of neumeology, The scientific facts revealed to such perfection which can only be said by the creator who created the universe and many many more signs to believe that it's a book from the creator.

Quran mentions that, Muhammad is the last prophet and the quran is the final guidence from Allah, you can see that in 1400 years none has really been challenging it and I dont see it happening anytime. Quran can answer every sincere question of a soul; Quram testifies; Allah has sent same message through all the prophets starting from Ibrahim (Abraham) and All everyone's religion was Islam.

Look; word perfect to MS word for xp, all came from microsoft; they all do the same work, but it has been perfected in the latest edition; there are still some who are sticking to WP and that's serving their purpose as well of typing the doc, if the copy is not corrupted. Quran testifies,Moses and Jesus to be the messengers and I as a muslim believe whole heartedly that they were and they got messages as we call bible and Taorah. But my friends, the copies are corrupted, please move to the final sestament which is proven to be not to be corrupted, you will be a better christian or a better jew and that only means Islam.

Quran says: 'There are many good christians and jews, who pray deep at night and are righteous people, who will go to heaven, whom you may not know but I do' I salute them whoever those are who can earn nearness to Allah amidst all confusions created by cholars around them.

Quran is a open book and there is only one version. I would request all of you; if you havnt read it, please do read and try to find out a mistake in it's History, Predictions, scientific facts, Language and Neumerology....If you cant believe it to be from Allah and Say: 'La Ilaha Illallah' - There is none worthy of worship except Allah.

Jesus is the messenger of God. It is shameful for the God to have a son without getting married, while He forbid us to not to do so. Any way God never gets married, "None gave birth to Him nor He gave birth to anyone, There is nothing like him."- Quran

Dear Deanna,

All we have to do is:

A) Cut and paste a Mr. Mark post.

B) Send it to a believer for comment.

C) Post the believer's response WITHOUT reference, ie, without Mr. Mark's original post.

D) He'll be back in a FLASH!

Voila!

:)

Dear Mark,

Congratulations on the new job!!! Hope the relocation is to your perfect environment, whatever that may be!

Getting along on Dawkins. BTW, he talks about atheists banding together to combat the various stripes of theists haranguing the government and trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. I say, go for it! The "Moral Majority" has claimed the high ground on very flimsy credentials for far too long!

I have to wonder how long Joseph A., News Cynic, Rose, and I will keep this thread going without your regular input. You will most definitely be missed. I'll look for you on Dawkins' site after I've finished my "homework".

Richest blessings to you and yours,
Deanna

Mr. Mark: Congrats on the job friend. To whatever extent you can't keep up on these threads you will be missed. I have checked out the Dawkin's threads a while ago but did not see you at that time. I'll be sure to head over there again. Was I in the "Friend" or "Adversary" category? (Or at times both?)

When you wrote: "My problem is in your inferring that god is perfect, and that qualifies god as being a perfect external moral source for man (as opposed to the imperfections of man)." You were absolutely right. God as I understand the concept to mean and if such a being were to exist, would by definition be perfect. I did not want to overly encumber my post with a defense of Christianity, but I know you know very well were I stand so that's fine.

You: “Is god omnipotent? No, he isn't...he couldn't defeat those chariots of iron...”

Me: Awesome! Anytime a post contains the phrase, “chariots of iron” that has to be a good thing. On a different note though I would say that any god that can’t defeat chariots or tanks or atom bombs or super novas is not a god (in the Christian sense). Are you sure God wanted to stop them?

You: Dawkins' point is that our morals were formed early on in human development through our survival mechanism, ie: that humans better survived when they banded into communities and looked out for each other's welfare. This furthered the common good of humans, and over the millenia, a "moral" code emerged, predating the codified codes of the world's religions.”

I can see that.

Me: Oh I can to. Given a materialistic Universe I see no problem with that supposition. It is as plausible as any (and better than some!)

Let us just be clear that when Dawkins gives the OK to intellectual elite, “leaders” and the ever changing “Zeitgeist” to redefine what is moral (since our minds have evolved to the point that we can take control of our cultural evolution), then good and evil are no longer absolutes and we are back to where we started: in some very real way what we call moral absolutes are arbitrary to geography and generation.

So my question is, why get so worked up about other people perceived short failings?

Dear Mr Mark,

Good Luck! Hurry back! Won't be the same without ya!

To My Various Theist Friends & Adversaries -

Just a few housekeeping points.

1. To NC - I tend to cut-n-paste from the KJV Bible online because a) it's a version that is commonly used to this day, and the words and phrasing are know to many, and b) because it's available to cut-n-paste while other versions aren't.

As far as versions of the Bible that I know and have owned, those would include the KJV, the RSV (I still have my confirmation copy of that from 1968), The New English (with Apocrapha) and the Zondervan Amplified (which I no longer own).

2. To Rose - welcome to the Board. You and I aren't so far apart. I'd say that your beliefs are about where I was 12-15 years ago. At that time, I considered myself a deist, if anything. I, too, enjoy the ritual of the church, at least until the soft racism and misogyny rear their ugly heads. Certainly, the music is often worth the price of admission.

Atheists love to say that we are all - atheists and theists alike - atheists, it's just that we atheists believe in one less god than do you theists. I'm 52, and it took quite a while for me to end up where I am in my journey. I'm still asking questions, but I would have to admit that I am well beyond redemption! One could say that I've been redeemed - by reason. I like to say that I have backslid all the way up to the top of the mountain, where the air is clear and the view is spectacular.

3. To James - well, here's another problem when we play the Bible translation game. Ultimately, none of us can be sure what it says, unless we are fluent in Hebrew, Greek and whatever. With all the various translations I have owned, I have never felt that the basic message emenating from the KJV was turned around 180º, and the points of clarity offered were often the stuff of angels dancing on pinheads. Still, the verses you cite give ample room for discussion.

I do have a question for you concerning more-literal translations: how does that effect the concept of midrash? Do you find that a more-literal reading of the Bible circumscribes midrash, or is midrash itself limited to a study of the original Hebrew?

As to the "faults" of the first covenant - as is typical of the Bible, the fault is all man's, not the Biblical god's. Well, to quote South Park, I CALL SHENANIGANS!! I don't buy it.

If god were omnipotent and omniscient, he would have seen it coming, so why have the first covenant in the first place? And, if Version 1 of the covenant was faulty, why should I buy into Vers 2? What if god is a supernatural Bill Gates, issuing bug-ridden covenant "software" over and over again, never quite getting it right? What if those Biblical translations you cited are just security patches, issued by god through humans until the "virus" of scientific research finds the next "security breach" in the Biblical argument, leading to yet another round of finger-in-the-dike theological reasoning?

After all, that faulty first covenant was around for, what, four thousand years? The bright-n-shiny New Covenant has only been around for half that time. Isn't it entirely possible that two thousand years from now, god will issue a third covenant that says science and reason were right all along, and that the quaint stories of the Bible were only operative until we evolved that sixth finger and a set of wheels for legs? Think about it.

It brings us back to the age-old question: if god is all-powerful, could he create a rock that was so heavy that he couldn't lift it?

Sorry, but blaming man for god's mistakes is too easy by half. It reminds me of bush & the neo-cons blaming the Iraqis for the disaster WE have made of their country.

4. To Deanna - always good to see you hanging around this site. I hope Valentine's Day was a good time for you and yours.

FWIW - I don't take comments like Rose's to be harsh. The only comments that would qualify as harsh to me are those made out of ignorance.

To all: I'm going to try to keep posting here on occasion, but it looks like the volume of my posts is going to have to drop off. Why? Well, I've been unemployed for the past few months, and it looks like I'm very close to landing a new position. That in and of itself will, hopefully, curtail the time available to me to surf the net, but coupled with the very real possibility that acccepting this position would entail a major relo as well, it may just about doom my recreational time for the forseeable future.

FYI - I occasionally post at both Sam Harris & Richard Dawkins' sites under my Mr Mark screen name, so we can always catch up there, though the same reality I etched above will impact my postings at the atheist-friendly blogs as well.

Gotta go.

Best to all,

Mr Mark

To Deanna:

Thanks for your support. As for my somewhat harsh tone, I didn't mean it to come off that way - I was composing it at around 4 in the morning when I had to wake up at 6:30 for the "next day"...so you could imagine how I didn't sound as civil as I should have been. :) I really do like the civil discussions more than those stray comments who spout off Scripture or those who are just spiteful in general.

One comment about your post: I agree with you - there is much I have to learn about my faith and what is it I believe, and that's what makes faith so compelling - the state of it is never concrete, and it should be normal to question one's faith to see if it holds up in where one is in life.

I'll also get around to checking out the evidence for Jesus' nonexistence, but now it's time to sleep. ^__^

I'll keep checking back often to see if anyone else has anything interesting to say!

Sincerely,
Rose

Mr. Mark,

I quoted from the New International Version. It's translation was started in 1968 and completed in 1978. It was translated for the purpose of being as true to the modern English language as it is to the original Greek and Hebrew. See this link for more info.

http://www.ibs.org/niv/accuracy/index.php

I apologize for not analyzing your other statement about God's law.

You wrote:

"Is god's law perfect? Not so much (Hebrews 8:6-7 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.)"

The NIV reads (with verse 8):

6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

"7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8:6-8

The King James Version also becomes clearer when you include verse 8:

" 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

The fault God found in the covenant was on the part of the people.

You also wrote:

Is god perfect? No, he has to repent for mistakes he's made (Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart; Jeremiah 42:10
For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you).

Again, going to the NIV it is clearer:

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

When I read this, it seems that God made man, man chose evil, and it grieved God. I don't see where it says it was a mistake.

On the Jeremiah verse, you have to read back in Chapter 40:

2 When the commander of the guard found Jeremiah, he said to him, "The LORD your God decreed this disaster for this place. 3 And now the LORD has brought it about; he has done just as he said he would. All this happened because you people sinned against the LORD and did not obey him.

Jeremiah 42:10 then reads:
10 'If you stay in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you, for I am grieved over the disaster I have inflicted on you.

God punished the folks for their sin. They repented and gave them some good news.

You also wrote:

"Does god lie? Not directly, but he does by proxy: (2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.)"

God doesn't lie but he allows lies to be told thereby giving us a choice between choosing the truth or the lie. If only truth were told, there would be no free will to choose the truth.

Ahab wanted to go attack a neighbor and he asked the king of Judah to help him. In the Old Testament, God seemed to not allow wickedness on the part of the leaders of his people to continue. God therefore allowed a lie to be told to entice the king to his death. Even so, God still allowed the truth to be presented through Micaiah:

16 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "

17 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"

18 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.

21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Ahab most likely could have repented at this point, but chose to defy God. He chose to listen to those who told him what he wanted to hear and he went to his death.

Dear Rose,

Welcome to the board! To your two posts, I say, for the most part, Amen. I only ask that you not be too harsh on Mark and many of the others. Like you and I, they are seekers of the truth.

There are many, many who have posted on this board -- on both sides of the issue -- who are irrational, spiteful, closed-minded, and unwilling to accept any point other than their own. I find it much more profitable to examine the atheistic arguments and test them against my own. The fact that their truth and ours are at odds with each other does neither frightens nor intimidates me. In fact, I am finding our discussions profitable and eye-opening. At some point in this thread, I believe Mark and I agreed that it was highly unlikely that we would either of us change our beliefs, but a civil discussion between friends was a wonderful thing.

To repeat something I said much earlier in this thread, I had a college professor tell me is was too accepting and uncritical of the faith tradition in which I had been raised. I was angry and offended at first, but then realized he had a point. This was many years ago. In the interim, I examined my "faith", found it (me) wanting, abandoned it for 30 years, then returned about 15 years ago. But it is only in the past 5 years or so that I have begun to "understand" what it is I believe. And there is still much I can learn.

I do believe that God created the universe and all that is in it. What I have learned from reading the scientific account of the birth of the universe,the genesis of life, and the evolution of life into a sentient creature with a consistent set of basic moral beliefs leads me to believe that the statistical improbability of all the elements necessary for any one of these to occur is exceedingly high. For all of them to occur is even more mind-boggling -- unless you are willing to accept the existence of the divine.

Although I have yet to examine the many arguments for the non-existence of Christ, I do believe God took on human form and died as a human to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament that commanded that men die for their sins. Curiously enough, I can see where Richard Dawkins argues that christianity was "invented by Paul of Taursus," although I don't agree with him.

My question to those who argue Christ never existed is, why, then, have so many people believed to the contrary for over 2,000 years. Also, in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE -- when the Romans and the Jewish hierarchy were so relentlessly trying to eradicate the Jesus sect and it's disturbing belief that Jesus was the risen Lord, why didn't they produce the body? That would certainly quashed any notion of Christ's resurrection -- and taken most of the wind out of Christian's sails.

Two comments on specific comments of yours: I had a mother who invoked God's will to justify many of her acts that were hurtful to others. It was one of the things that drove me away from religion! The position is not supportable because 1) God gave us free will, and 2) Christ commanded us to love one another. Lazy, yes. Also an act of moral cowardice. But Christ has long since forgiven my mother, and so must I.

As for good deeds, there is no way anyone can "earn" their way into heaven. Christ already paid the price for our "ticket." We act with kindness, caring, and generosity toward our fellow humans because 1) the love of God showered upon us is too great to be contained, and 2) Christ commanded us to love our neighbors -- even commanding that we love our enemies!

Stay with us. There's a lot to learn here.

Peace and Love,
Deanna

Mr. Mark (and other Bible Readers)!

Saw your comment to James about Bible translations. If you want one that sounds corny and that makes it easy to mock modern Christians with I recommend you use the Kind James version. It just sounds funny to modern ears. if you want clarity of understanding though there are sevearl newer versions that come with great notes in the margins about which verses are not found in the oldest texts and which passages are in dispute etc.

I would recommend the New American Standard but it's not as easy to read as some because it places conformity to the existing ancient texts over ease of reading. I also like the TNIV but that is rather controversial in some circles.

On a different note I am having a hard time with an atheist over on the "Why atheism" thread. He is adamant that he disputes the notion that atheists do not believe in morality in the same sense that Christians do. I have tried to explain this to him several times but nothing works. Perhaps you could help? (It would be a swell thing for you to do.)

Here is my last post to him:

You said that I said (and he said that she said) that atheists, ““IN REALITY have no morality”. What I actually said was, “in reality atheists ARE saying that there is no such thing as morality in the sense that Christians mean."

Gerry, my friend, I don’t understand what you are disputing! We agree here don’t we? Are you honestly trying to argue that atheists ARE saying that they believe in morality in the same sense that Christians do? I can’t believe that. Let me repeat that I never said (or even thought!) that you have no emotions and no sense of morality. I know you didn’t like my Bible quotes but I used them to show you that within a Christian world view it is understood that all people have a sense of morality because God put “eternity” in our hearts.

Again, are you really saying that atheists DO believe in morality in the same sense that Christians do? That would make you an odd atheist indeed because while Atheists will argue that morality comes from our evolutionary history (as a set of learned survival skills) or from the “spirit of our times” or from both or from some other (perhaps undefined) place, the Christian will say that “Goodness” flows from the character of God and is a category of reality that exists quite independent of the predilections of time or the vagaries of culture. Let me guess. You don’t believe that do you. So, that means we both agree that “in reality atheists ARE saying that there is no such thing as morality in the sense that Christians mean." Right?

You were jumping to conclusions (and false ones at that) to say that I think you have no emotions or no sense of morality.

I hate to belabor this point, but if you want to be a good atheist I think we should both agree that we disagree that morality is a reflection of the character of God. You maybe should read Dawkin’s book The God Delusion. He never gets around to explaining the “ought” of morality or even how we can determine what is good and evil, but he does go to great lengths to explain why he does not prefer the morality of the god of the Bible! As he puts it, “All I am establishing is that modern morality, wherever else it comes from, does not come from the Bible.” See? Dawkins and I agree on this point! Atheists think Christians are wrong on morality. That was easy!

(Chapter3:verse59)
Verily, the likeness of Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was.

(Chapter4:verse163)
Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nooh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob), and AlAsbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)), Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yoonus (Jonah), Haroon (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawood (David) We gave the Zaboor (Psalms).

(Chapter4:verse 171)
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

(Chapter4:verse 157)
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ):

Also, many atheists cite that people who believe in God do so because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions, putting them all on God. That is not a true Christian, but forget true Christian - that's just laziness and irresponsibility. Disgusting.

Then, there is that other claim that Christians only do good things so we can get a fast ticket to heaven, and all sorts of nonsense like that. So you atheists are better at helping your fellow man/woman but theists aren't simply because they believe in something that you don't? I don't know; sounds like a superiority complex to me.

Mr. Mark,

I'm new to this board, but I've read most of the posts since 11 PM tonight.

Okay, so you've established that faith is not needed and religion is not needed, so the rest of the world needs to wake up and realize that atheists are right. Without debating points of theology and evidence, aren't you just as guilty as religious fundamentalists of thinking you have the one "truth" and it is right? I know you're backed up by scientific evidence and whatnot; I didn't come here to disprove evolution or to question Jesus' and God's existence. I'm just saying that just because you believe a certain way, even with more proof than the others, doesn't make you the "most right." As a Catholic (shock! horror!), I believe in God and Jesus, but I don't condemn others for not believing or hold a sense of superiority in my beliefs. No one should. Maybe that's just me, and I know Sam Harris hates people like me, but one can't please everyone. :)

Yes, the Bible was written by humans to understand the world around them. I don't take it literally except the nuggets of moral codes in there that are pretty much universal to everyone. The only reason why I'm not an atheist or a plain theist with no denominational ties is that I believe SOMETHING or SOMEONE created the universe. Maybe it is just a force that created whatever the first material was because something cannot come from nothing, and maybe we are just worshipping the complex form of nature as well as defined moralistic codes inherent in people, but I and others like me shouldn't be looked down upon for choosing to believe in this way. I don't for you or anyone else.

Again, the only reason why I am still a Roman Catholic with views controversial to Orthodox RCism is that I like the way Catholics worship God/the force/nature. It's simply my preference, as not believing in spiritual beings is yours.

Humans deny that God and Jesus exist. Who is to say humans are not fallible?

James -

1. What translation are you citing? Obviously, the meaning is quite different from that outlined in the KJV. Is that because the translation you're using is considered to be a closer representation of the Hebrew/Greek etc, or is it a version that has cleaned up the earlier message for 21st century consumption?

2. You didn't address the quote about god's not-so-perfect law.

3. " I am grieved over the disaster I have inflicted on you. Jeremiah 42:10" Check me on this, but I believe the word "disaster" can't really be compared to disciplining one's children.