Millions of people are in mixed faith marriages or are unsure about their conception of God. How would you advise them to describe God to their children over the holiday season?
Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham on December 6, 2006 11:30 AM
I was brought up Christian Protestant - Southern Baptist, to be exact. Questions were not ebncouraged, but seen as a sign of a lack of faith. You were supposed to believe it, even if it didn't make sense to you. In fact, the ability to believe what you didn't understand was considered the hallmark of true faith. I quit beleiving while I was still in middle school, and stoppped going to church as soon as I was old enough that my parents could no longer make me go.
I began reading about other belief systems, and found that while none of them completely fulfilled my spiritual needs, they all contained some wisdom. I kept what I found useful from all of them and discarded the rest.
After much soul-searching, I now know that a Pagan path best suits me.
By the time my daughter was born, I had been working on blazing my rather eclectic spiritual path for esveral years. When she was still small, I found a Unitarian church that took much the same approach to relationship with the Divine that I did, and even had RE (Religious Education - UU Sunday School) that took children to services at different religious institutions around town, including a mosque, a Bahai center, a Buddhist temple, a synagogue, a Catholic church, a Pentecostal church, a Methodist church, and even a gospel concert at House of Blues. This church celebrates Christmas and Easter, as well as the birthdays of Sidhartha Gautama, Mohammed, Martin Luther King Jr, and Ghandi. They also celebrate Rosh Hoshana and Passover, including hosting a Seder. They celebrate Kwaanza, as well as the solstices and equoinoxes, Halloween, and the Day of the Dead.
From the time she was old enough to ask questions of a religious/spiritual nature, I have never told my daughter that one particular belief system is The Truth. I've told her what I believe, and have allowed - nay, encouraged - her to explore as many different paths as she needs to in order to find or create one that works for her. I answer her quesations about other paths to the best of my knowledge, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to say "I don't know. Let's find out."
I only read until I felt the need to vomit.
One posting was a long ad for electronic products, and another contained a link to a site offering a book the poster had written.
It turned out to be a gay hardcore porn site.
Here you guys go again, getting bogged down on your personal preferences, argueing, and missing the point. How about what's best for your kids? My 4 year old daughter asked me about God the other day and I told her that God is a very nice man who lives in the sky and helps people if they pray really hard. Of course now she prays 5 times a day and tells me that God wants me to buy her a princess costume, take her to the park, make Easter happen next week, and make ice cream come out of the vcr. But hey, it's a good start.
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
Reading the comments is only more proof to me that even as the various flavors of religion espouse goodness and light, the fact is that the more one believes in religion and god the more evil their actions become. How many of the human on human tragedies, wars, and mean heartedness from ancient to present times are the direct result of religion? The middle east, one of our present disaster is due to sectarian violence, where sectarian is just another word for religion. Also include Somalia, Indonesia, Afghanistan and the majority of conflicts presently occurring. The more religious, the less tolerant. If I believed, I would say that religion is a tool of the devil, and seems to suit his purposes quite well. My grasp of religion is 'believe what I believe .... or I'll kill you.'
NO HOLIDAY- I THINK THATS A SPLENDID IDEA!!!
MY HOLIDAY(RAMADAN) LASTS ONE LOOOOONG MONTH.
WAKING UP AT 4AM AND PREPARING FOOD AND EATING AND THEN PRAYING- THEN FASTING- NO FOOD WATER-SEX- NOTHING PUT IN YOUR MOUTH TIL THE SUN GOES DOWN-
AND WORKING ALL DAY HUNGRY AND THIRSTY TIL 730-OR 830-IT DEPENDS WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN.
I THINK IT WOULD BE MARVELOUS IF ALL AMERICANS WERE DOING NOTHING BUT COMMUNITY SERVICE FOR A WHOLE MONTH!
O- YOU MEAN ONLY CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS WILL BE HONORED IN THAT WAY?
THATS OK, WORKING DURING RAMADAN IS HAAARD.
I believe it is important for children to be raised in one faith. My experience is that when children are raised, for instance, by a father who is a Christian and a mother who is Jewish, there is great confusion and anxiety for the children.
This is a delicate issue. If children are raised in one faith, the faith of the other parent can be acknowledged. And the children should be told that it was a joint decision to raise the children in one faith.
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Yes CJ, believe in yourself for it's the only thing you can believe in. Your mind anyway, there's no proof your body actually exists. Nor God, nor your computer screen, nor anything outside your own head. There's no legitimate evidence that a world exists outside your mind therefore the existence of the world must be a myth.
Create a homemade book on your computer to help tell your children about your faith.
It is a good exercise for parents because you have to decide what you really do believe. Children easily see through insincerity. You can't just rattle off a denominational line of rhetoric. They will call you on it and demand, "why do you believe that?!"
The book I made is posted for family and friends at http://linuxined.org. I read it to my kids when I get the chance and ask, "what do you think?"
The bible tells people to not be unequally yolked, so I think that Christians should probably follow this teaching. For people of other beliefs, I would say to follow the dictates of your own conscience. I do firmly believe that a unity between parents can have a positive effect on children, but I was raised a single child in a faith I reject and I am now a strong christian so I think that God can lead people anywhere he wants despite their circumstances.
I was raised Jewish, my wife Protestant. The children were not given any religious teaching. Believe it or not, they never asked about God.
If they had, we would have told them that, while we didn't believe in God, they were free to make up their own minds.
They have grown up to be remarkably ethical and moral people, not because they fear divine punishment, but because they are answerable to their own consciences.
I think a mixed marriage is a kind of blessing because it really forces one to look into the deeper meaning of faith. Spirituality helps as an anchor whether one believes in a God who is a sort of parent (like in the Judaic traditions) or a God who is within us (like in the Eastern traditions). One could merge the two by teaching children that the core of all religions is the same - and all other differences are irrelevant. The ideal message parents should give by their own example is that what matters is a belief in goodness being its own reward. This is true for all parents not just ones of mixed marriages.
I would first have an open and intelligent conversation with my spouse about what we want our child to be introduced to. We wouldn't use faith as a tool to make our child obediant. We would want our child to do what's right, not because we scare the kid with threats of hell, but because we want her/him to do whats right out of a genuine sense of virtue. To teach the kid that virtue is indeed it's own reward.
We would teach our child to respect other faiths, because we're all on the same quest, but merely take different paths.
I would teach our child about Nature. To teach him/her the wonders of the real world. To instill a knowledge of the natural conduct of life, present in everything.
I would keep it as light as possible, not demanding, but rather matter of factly. I would teach them not to fear a vengeful God, that they would be subjected to outside the home, via friends, school, and the neighborhood. Children learn at a much faster rate than us elder folk. (so to speak) We would teach the child the Golden Rule, and why it is so important in life.
But, no matter how much teaching, the child would see us the parents as living examples of the knowledge we want to instill. Eventually, the child will find his/her own path. It is just up to us, that they be taught the truth of this world, to give a better direction to start from.
What bothers me is that you equate religious faith with "belief in (a) God". I consider myself a religious person (Buddhist) but do not believe in any god whatsoever. I see God as an attempt to conceptualize the unknowable within the limited cognitive framework of the human mind. Due to its limitations and irrationalities, such belief can lead to psychological and social problems.
What a man truly desires is unfailing love, better to poor than a liar.
We are all looking for unfailing love. It, ultimately, is what we pursue. Not money, popularity or power. Those are simply counterfeit attempts to gain unfailing love. They fail to satisfy.
The amazing thing about the truth is that it is best found in the light. Learning to live one's life without having to hide anything, in the light, is central to finding the truth. Lies are opposite to truth. They misrepresent what happened or who we are. The truth never has anything to hide. Which is why it allows lies to propagate around it. If people want truth, they will have to find it, they will have to show a disatisfaction with the lie.
Let's quit hiding and come out into the light. Search for unfailing love. Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.
Pursue these things and love, light and truth will surely be the reward.
Children need to have "the God question" placed in context. First, they need to know that most people most of the time are cruel, self-centered, and irrational. Second, they need to know that discussion of "the God question" usually brings out the worst in others and should be avoided at all costs. Third, they need to know that it's an open question as to whether or not the Universe was created but that, if the Universe had a creator, this creator is unworthy of worship as a God because he designed a Universe in which it is inevitable that sentient beings must suffer: life is a cruel game of winners and losers in the crap shoot of the food chain, genetic mutation, etc., etc. Better to live one's life in the expectation that virtue will be its own and its only reward and that one gets no second chances in an afterlife among "the chosen by God."
Norman I think it is amazing that you have all that respect for them still. As an ex-christian myself I do not believe that lack of faith was the sole reason you decided to 'quit' but why would you want to raise your daughter to be indoctrinated into your wifes religion? I understand her going and being a part of the community that her mother is part of and even learning the more broad messages of 'love' the church can provide, but why would you wish her to believe that this faith- this particular belief would be the one you would prefer her to have? Can you not have her learn about religion on her own as well as her mother's faith and allow her to choose what she believes?
Parenting is hard- we have a responibility to teach our children a sense of moral responsibility, a 'code of ethics' if you will. Those who have a personal belief that their child soul will be damned if they do not believe as they do obviously are frightened into perpetuating the belif system on their child. Surely if I thought my child's soul was in danger I would do everything in my power to prevent it. However, even GOD recognizes that we can not force another to choose to believe. Free will is something that should be nurtured. Religion and the ability to make choices regarding it should be allowed to develop naturally just like other decision making abilities. I-personally- am pagan. I allow my son to know what I believe but I never tell him THIS is the truth, in fact I usually make it a point to tell him examples of other way's people believe. Far from confusing him by conflicting what he ALREADY thinks with a TRUTH I cannot prove, I give him the tools to form and perhaps later RE-form his own beliefs. If my son wants to vary with me on personal belief I will just be happy that I taught him to think for himself rather than be pressured into 'believing' in something that he may have questions about or not fully think is right.
Sorry to be long winded I hope that helped.
Nine years ago, when my wife and I decided to prepare our wedding, she would especially like her minister to preside the wedding. Her minister declined the request because I was not a Christian. Therefore, I was stuck in the middle either to have a perfect wedding with the minister presiding the wedding or no wedding at all. It took me more than six months of "intensive" studying to become a Christian before we got married with the minister presiding the wedding ceremony. Now, we have a 5-year child. Our family life is wonderful, and I still have tremendous respect to the minister, who stood firm on his principle.
After getting married, I went to Church regularly for the first a few years, then, on and off for a while. I have attended numerous bible studies, classes, man's conference, genuinely thought, discussed, studied, argued the religion. Although I have more knowledge than my wife who just believes, I do not have enough faith. I need to be convinced; not bluntly accepted. Besides, I felt that Christians were being fooled by politicians.
So, finally after seven~eight years of struggling for my Christian faith (going to Church, pray, but, do not have enough faith in God), I decide to "quit". Now, I feel more comfortable (not fool myself and not fool God if there is one).
In fact, I am open to Christianity. And, unexplainably, I even introduced it too several friends. As for my child, I do not mind him going Church with my wife to learn whatever they teach. Maybe, because he went to Church at young age, it will be easier and natural for him to accept the faith, where I myself was exposed to such a religion only in my thirties and came from a different culture background.
I would quote William Penn:--"To mend the world is true religion." The Holiday season reflects the WILL of all major religions. A future where equality, truth, freedom, peace and love reign. A world needed by all people. A future heaven on earth!
I should like to take a slightly different approach than what has been posted. This is the Christmas Season and we celebrate the Birth of Christ. I have always wondered why He was born in a Manger! One day, recently, during one of my meditations an answer came to me which I am going to share with you.
We know Jesus was born in a Manger as there was no room at the Inn, in Bethlehem. There is a hidden meaning here, which when understood will bring a much deeper understanding to this miraculous Birth. The Inn represents the House of Man. The Manger, which word is taken from the French "mangoire", refers to a place where animals come to eat. So, the Manger or Stable is also a place where animals move about, or around, or in and out. This, to me, has reference to the Sidereal Heavens, particularly to the realm of the "Zodiac", which is a word that is derived from the Greek Zodiakos, meaning circle of the animals. I am not referring to Astrology in which the Zodiac plays a very important part.
The Spiritual Birth of Christ takes place in Beth-Elohim, (Bethlehem), which in Hebrew refers to "House of the Gods". This, of course, is synonymous with the realm of the Zodiac in the Sidereal Heavens. Beth in Hebrew is House, and Elohim is the plural form of God. In the ancient teachings of the Hebrews the Elohim are the creative forces of God, and are as great flashes of lightning, or Heavenly Fire. Had this Spiritual Birth taken place on Earth its consequences would have been of such shattering proportions, that the entire Earth would have been englufed in flames created by the tremendous force of Lightning.
This quick flash of Lightning is indicative of the descent of the Spirit into the phsyical manifestation of Jesus, the son of Mary. In the Hwebrew teachings the root of fire is Chokmah, which is the Father; and, Binah,(the great Sea) which is the Mother.
Therefore, dating from Patrician times, in Catholicism, there are three masses that are celebrated on Christmas Day. The first Mass takes place at midnight and commemorates the Eternal Generation of the Son. The second rakes place at Dawn which commemorates His incarnation on Earth. The third Mass commemorates His Birth in the Heart of Mankind, as the most Compassionate Son of God.
So then, this Birth, in its first, or Cosmic sense, is the welling forth of the Spirit of Life from the Divine Flame, or Light of God. in the words of the Christian Mystic, Ruysbeck:
"....from the Father and all that lives in Him, there shines an Eternal Ray, the which is the Birth of the Son". This Birth of the Son is the perpetual generation of The Logos - "The Word Made Flesh"! So that, in effect, Jesus The Christ is Lord Regent of not only our World but of the Universe as encompassed by the realm of the Zodiac.
Da Thinker,
The point isn't believing in walking on water and waking the dead. Those are, in my opinion, stories to get people to listen. However, the message given by Jesus and all those who came before and after him who are divinely inspired is a common message. It is to love. Not believe in the miracles but to love. What I would recommend if you want a real headache is to think about why and how this wonderful universe came into being and how we have evolved and become who we are today. Or are you going to take the easy answer and just say that it was coincidence. The Bible has great philosophies to think about as well, maybe you should read it and analyze it before you criticize. Thank you.
I'm a non-believer so I am surely going to hell? I am a good person-- I am a teacher and enjoy helping people-- it just seems right! I don't need to give people money and dress up on Sunday mornings to feel good about myself! It's so much easier to just accept what they throw at you in the Bible to explain things -- no thinking=no headache. You get a headache when you try to imagine how this wonderful universe came into being 14.7 billion years ago and how human life forms evolved from elements that started in stars! That is truly amazing-- but it will give you a headache! Easy way out- just accept the Bible!
I was baptized a Catholic, but then never forced to go to church after that. My mom used to read the Bible to me, and even at the age of 7, I would ask questions like, "How could they fit two of every animal on a single arc?" or, "How could Jesus raise people from the dead?", and she would respond, "It's just a miracle!" So I would counter, "How come these 'miracles' don't happen today?" No response. Now I know the answer-- Because they never did happen in the first place. Some clever folks put together a wonderful collection of literature about men who lived for 500 years and people parting seas, and used it to exploit groups of people. It doesn't surprise me that it worked then, but now-- in 2006 -- I can't believe people still believe this stuff! lol
Tell them the true story of our Jesus’ birth and how He loved us so much (and still does) that He gave His own life to redeem us from our sins and wicked ways. Explain to them that “Christmas” is a Holiday set aside for us to show our appreciation to Him and the world that we are Christians. And most of all lead your children by example, it will mean much much more to them than to just tell them about “Christmas”. You may also want to tell them there are others that celebrate or don’t celebrate their love for God in their own way and to give them love and respect for their celebrations.
If you can’t at least tell your children the truth about “Christmas” I suggest you tell them nothing.
I really don't know if there is an easy answer. Love is hard to find and it would be a shame to loose a partner over one's religion. I personally could try to teach my children the basic commonalities of BOTH RELIGIONS: love for God, family, and those around us. Children can learn about both religions, attend services, and make their own decision later in live. God might have different names but She/He is the same divine Being. YES, I DO BELIEVE IN HER/HIM.
Describing God in an interfaith marriage is not the problem. The teaching about God in most major faiths are too similar to have any discord. It is the teachings on why things are right or wrong is where things get sticky. However, the thing to always keep in mind in these explanations is that message is what matters, and not who delivers it. Call him Son, Messiah, Prophet, or anything, is what Jesus taught relevant? Yes, to all religions peace and love matter. What the world needs is a deep understanding of love and peace and not trying to explain the differences.
I would start by telling them the truth about what the BIBLE really teaches and not what the government (man's law) wants us to learn. My parents taught me "traditions, customs, ideas" from man and not the BIBLE. If I would have known this while growing up, I WOULD HAVE KNOWN that there's no such thing as SANTA, HOLLOWEEN, EASTER BUNNY! These are "man made" holidays only because it brings BIG DOLLARS to the economy. Instead I would read to my children what
2 Timothy 3:15,16,17 says: "and that from infancy you have known the holy writingsm which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. All Scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent completely equipped for every good work".
And who is this God they might ask? then
I would read Psalm 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Michael C said "as to how do I know if there is such a being, I would say that is what faith really is all about, and ask: can you prove otherwise?"
It's the other way around. As long as there is no evidence for such a being, why believe in one? Do you believe in unicorns as well? (especially invisible pink ones...) Why make stuff up instead of being honest and saying 'this is what I know, the rest I don't'?
Nascent (before Rome) Christianity was Jefferson's source on human rights. Nascent Christianity was from the start a rejection of Judaism and Romanism, the two belief systems that saw to the Christ's death. Judaism was imposed upon nascent Christianity by Constantine in the early 4th century, in the name of Roman despotism and Roman conquest and control.
That Roman denigration fueled imperialism for over a millennium, it fueled colonialism for half a millennium and it has fueled corporate capitalism over the past half century.
Anyone who believes Rome did the Christ a favor is dead wrong. Old Testament Romanism has never acted on Christian values, it has only practiced conquest and control in the name of Christian values. That despotic program was rejected by Jefferson and replaced with nascent Christian human rights in the Declaration.
The Republican right wing has brought all of that despotism back in the name of capitalism's unfair dominion since World War II. If American's want the Christ back in American life they have no option but to return to the Declaration's values and to reconsider the implementation of nascent Christian human rights at the expense of Roman despotism.
First, marrying someone who is not of the same faith is simply asking for trouble.
Second, if you do not have an acurate belief system, you will not give your children an acurate belief system.
There is only one acurate belief system. The best panel member to explain it would be Albert Mohler. Read the Bible. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven.
Ann is right when she says we should listen to how our children describe God.
Recently an extremely racist man was admitted to the hospital where my son is also a resident. Alot of the staff is justifiably upset about having to deal with him and put up with his insults and verbal abuse.
My son got into the practice of stopping by the man's room to visit for a few minutes each day.
Me and my son talked about this and he was told that when hateful language was to describe certain staff my son could say and should say that so and so is my friend, please don't talk like that about them in front of me. And my son said he did this. Although the derogatory comments have abated to a certain degree the hateful sentiment is still there.
I asked my son how he can interact with this man and he said to me "Mom, you got to love everyone."
Maybe being exposed to the loving accepting nature of my son is divine intervention to help this man become less ignorant. This child of mine has certainly been divine intervention for me.
My son was told that he a better person and more tolerant than me because when the man comes into my son's room I have to get up and leave.
ps i tend to not like copy and pastes but i wanted you to see the words themselves so you could see there were no curses contained- there are more ayats on Jesus(ata)
o BTWmy father was an atheist and my mother changed her views with whoever walked into the room and convinced her at any given moment- in other words she kind of followed my spiritual progress-
i asked to go to church when i was 6ish and mymother wasnt thrilled with having to get us up on her onlyday off but she did- and i dragged my lil bro with me who pulled my hair the whole way and spent his collection money on candy.
jim i wasnt implying that you knocked me over the head sorry i wasnt clear
now as to saying the quran says jesus is god i never encountered this idea in the quran
“This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was
adam and Jesus(ata) shared humanity and no earthly father
A. Regarding The Sonship Of Jesus:
“Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is.”
let alone beget a god...
“O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”
Chapter 4, Verse 171
and finally Jesus(ata) Himself speaks:
“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit `Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.” Chapter 5, Verses 116-117
Raised by tolerent agnostics,
I've been a bible student for over 60 years...
(And have done graduate work in theology in three
different seminaries...)
None of which was an assist to becomeing closer to 'god'. I sincerely believe that any discussion
of the god in whom )or which) you believe,
is a minimalist view.
(i.e., 'god' is beyond human comprehension...(Job))
...but I do believe at times I hear echoes...:-)
My grown children are multi-religionists, (if
that be a word)happy in their toleration as am I.
Jesus is said to have said: The kingdom of God is at hand...live life more abundently, my purpose is to have you share my joy, the truth will set you free.
That would pretty much be my epitome...
(Did I forget to mention love yourself and neighbor? :-)
Raised by tolerent agnostics,
I've been a bible student for over 60 years...
(And have done graduate work in theology in three
different seminaries...)
None of which was an assist to becomeing closer to 'god'. I sincerely believe that any discussion
of the god in whom )or which) you believe,
is a minimalist view.
(i.e., 'god' is beyond human comprehension...(Job))
...but I do believe at times I hear echoes...:-)
My grown children are multi-religionists, (if
that be a word)happy in their toleration as am I.
Jesus is said to have said: The kingdom of God is at hand...live life more abundently, my purpose is to have you share my joy, the truth will set you free.
That would pretty much be my epitome...
(Did I forget to mention love yourself and neighbor? :-)
I'm not upset with you. I don't think you were harsh. I was just answering a question posted by SAUL2006, so I'm not sure why you felt as if I was hitting you over the head.
If you think I was not being clear, I'll try again:
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
So, a child is going to be born who will be called "God" and "Father". I'm not sure how else take that verse. So, what other Jew has come and claimed He was God?
This is the foundation of the Christian faith. I'm not making it up. We rest on Scripture because that's practically all we know about Jesus.
And, the Qur'an does say that Jesus is not God. I read it with my own eyes, in a printed copy, not the internet.
Saul originally asked what OT prophet said the Messiah would take over for God. I was responding to indicate that the Messiah would BE God. That's just what we believe. It seems clear to me. That verse is not complicated.
And, yes, you could take any verse out of the bible and twist it, but I always read it in context, relying on what it says on the whole first.
I enjoy some of the comments on this board, but some people get too emotional and personal. I hope I'm not one of them. I'm trying to keep it objective.
Jim i always try to stay above the fray and not insult anyones belief system- ive seen so many opinions form people about islam that havent the first clue as theyve never read a word of what they think theyre quoting.
im not in your head so im not making the connections you obviously are- try and present your statements from an impartial viewpoint- when i make a post of an ayat(verse) i try to imagine how it impacts on others thought processes, i dont assume others have the same mondset that i do and will come to the same conclusions- in that way i can learn more about myself too-
i think its upsetting when people state absolutes as a given- we all dont see it that way.
christians are not cursed in the Qur'an.
i dont know where you got this idea.
there are literally hundreds of biblical quotes that i could take out of context and if you read the body of such a post- you would not recognize your own religion in it.
im sorry if i was harsh to you- i just get tired of being hit over the head sometimes.
i promise to have better manners in the future, really i am sorry if you felt i was hard.
peace i mean im sorry for my actions not how it made you feel
This will never happen in overly-Christian America, but parents need to let their children decide on their own what, if any, religion to follow.
Sure, parents can tell kids what they, the parents, believe. But it's FAR more important that parents teach their children how to get along in the world, and the proper way to do so socially. That is, point out the Ten Commandments and its recommendations, but remember that most major religions have the same basic "sins" that humans should avoid.
Seeing scary movies like those nasty, brainwashed kids at that Christian camp should give pause to anyone trying to brainwash their kids about the exclusionary merits of some intolerant religion. I must point to born-again zealots as an example of the latter.
KathyH wrote:
"There needs to be unity in the family, as I have seen adult children of these families. Not just walk away from one of the faith's but walk away from them all."
That's a good thing, right? Seems to me that those who walked away realized that faith doesn't correspond to reality.
To any and everyone who "pounds" on me and my opinion. I have no anger, bitterness or anything else towards you. I am just plainly stating what I have seen in my life with this topic. And I'm glad that there are marriages out there that have made it through the tough times.
But also, please remember that there will be a time when the children are gone. And don't create the marriage around the child, but around your union to your spouse. It was when the children left that the marrages I have seen fell apart. if you can't meet together in your faith find something that is common between you.
I hope and pray people see I am not trying to hurt them. But this topic is near and dear to me, as I have seen the results of mistakes being made. And like anything else this is just a discussion not a dig against anyone. Don't take things so personal, please. Flaming gets us nowhere fast.
The child that is going to come into the world is called "Almighty God" and "Father". I only used the Christmas song to show that Christians see this child as Jesus.
The one who is pierced is Jesus on the Cross, and God says the people at that time would look on "me" (God), the one they have pierced.
As I said, you can take it or leave it. And, Victoria, you have to leave it, because I believe the Qu'ran pronounces curses on those who say or believe that Jesus was God. I'm cool with whatever you choose to believe. Salaams
what guy? the house of david? jerusalem? the son?
the substantial proof of a christmas song?
david is also cited in the scripture as a son of god.. you not only didnt answer the question, your lack of answer lends credence to sauls assertion.
"The only reason people were looking for a Messiah was because of OT prophets. Please show me the ones that said God was going to hand off being God to someone else."
Zechariah 12:10-11
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."
God is speaking here, and He refers (in the second sentence) to the one who is crucified ("pierced") as "me".
Here is another one:
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
The first part of this verse is part of at least one Christmas song. In the second sentence, this child (Jesus) is called "Mighty God" and "Father".
So, Saul, God is not 'handing off' being God. This guy IS God.
That's just what the Bible says. You can take it or leave it. I think I answered the question, though.
i think that being a site called on faith implies faith related topics such as religion, there are so few places to discuss this without being attacked, its nice and scientific or agnostic views arent derided more than any other so ...
How about listening to the way your children describe God to you? At age 4 my son decided God was oxygen. It was always there, we couldn't see it, it was there before we were, we needed it to live, it didn't need us, sometimes it was a breeze and sometimes it was a wind, you could talk to the breeze but it might not talk back....the metaphor worked on a lot of levels. At age 7 he decided that God was like the white spaces between the frames of a film, you couldn't see them but the film didn't work without the invisible white spaces. Here he lost me....but sometimes kids are smarter and more sensitive than we think. They figure out the image of God that works for them. Constructing an image for our kids deprives them from the thrill of discovery....and our thrill at their surprisiing insight.
the catholic church instituted confessions to the priest in the middleages as a way to keep tabs on the thoughts of the people and keep tighter control on them...also the practice of priests and nuns itself was developed as a way for the church to
MAINTAIN ITS CONTROL OF PROPERTY AD INFINTUM,
any properties used by priests and bishops( nuns never had access to any personal property) the ownership and usage REVERTS BACK TO THE CHURCH upon their demise-cif they have no heirs, there is no one to claim the property therefore it stays in the hands of the church forever...
ask a priest for the scripture relating to these issues! i have!
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I was brought up Christian Protestant - Southern Baptist, to be exact. Questions were not ebncouraged, but seen as a sign of a lack of faith. You were supposed to believe it, even if it didn't make sense to you. In fact, the ability to believe what you didn't understand was considered the hallmark of true faith. I quit beleiving while I was still in middle school, and stoppped going to church as soon as I was old enough that my parents could no longer make me go.
I began reading about other belief systems, and found that while none of them completely fulfilled my spiritual needs, they all contained some wisdom. I kept what I found useful from all of them and discarded the rest.
After much soul-searching, I now know that a Pagan path best suits me.
By the time my daughter was born, I had been working on blazing my rather eclectic spiritual path for esveral years. When she was still small, I found a Unitarian church that took much the same approach to relationship with the Divine that I did, and even had RE (Religious Education - UU Sunday School) that took children to services at different religious institutions around town, including a mosque, a Bahai center, a Buddhist temple, a synagogue, a Catholic church, a Pentecostal church, a Methodist church, and even a gospel concert at House of Blues. This church celebrates Christmas and Easter, as well as the birthdays of Sidhartha Gautama, Mohammed, Martin Luther King Jr, and Ghandi. They also celebrate Rosh Hoshana and Passover, including hosting a Seder. They celebrate Kwaanza, as well as the solstices and equoinoxes, Halloween, and the Day of the Dead.
From the time she was old enough to ask questions of a religious/spiritual nature, I have never told my daughter that one particular belief system is The Truth. I've told her what I believe, and have allowed - nay, encouraged - her to explore as many different paths as she needs to in order to find or create one that works for her. I answer her quesations about other paths to the best of my knowledge, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to say "I don't know. Let's find out."
September 28, 2007 6:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I only read until I felt the need to vomit.
One posting was a long ad for electronic products, and another contained a link to a site offering a book the poster had written.
It turned out to be a gay hardcore porn site.
September 28, 2007 9:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Here you guys go again, getting bogged down on your personal preferences, argueing, and missing the point. How about what's best for your kids? My 4 year old daughter asked me about God the other day and I told her that God is a very nice man who lives in the sky and helps people if they pray really hard. Of course now she prays 5 times a day and tells me that God wants me to buy her a princess costume, take her to the park, make Easter happen next week, and make ice cream come out of the vcr. But hey, it's a good start.
September 27, 2007 5:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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December 29, 2006 11:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
so by your own reasoning are you saying that one should not worship Jesus(ata) as god, because that would be putting him before god?
December 20, 2006 7:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
December 19, 2006 9:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
December 19, 2006 9:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
There is only one way - Christ died for our sins but he said if you love me you will keep my Commandments- Millions of confessing Christians still keep Sunday -and that is not from our Father who created us-- so you can have a mariage of two people who believe the same go to Church on Sunday and still raise fine loving Children but the problem in that situation is.. Sunday keepers are following a false God -one that Change the Holy Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday --that is breaking the 4th commandment probably the most important. Thou Shalt not put any Gods before me.. so many people have no clue they are not following our Creator. It's sad.
In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?"
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?"
December 19, 2006 9:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Reading the comments is only more proof to me that even as the various flavors of religion espouse goodness and light, the fact is that the more one believes in religion and god the more evil their actions become. How many of the human on human tragedies, wars, and mean heartedness from ancient to present times are the direct result of religion? The middle east, one of our present disaster is due to sectarian violence, where sectarian is just another word for religion. Also include Somalia, Indonesia, Afghanistan and the majority of conflicts presently occurring. The more religious, the less tolerant. If I believed, I would say that religion is a tool of the devil, and seems to suit his purposes quite well. My grasp of religion is 'believe what I believe .... or I'll kill you.'
December 19, 2006 11:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
OK I HAve an idea---
JEWISH PEOPLE CAN PUT UP MENORAHS ON YOM KIPPUR OR ANY holiday of their choosing-
christians keep christmas with all the bells and whistles
the pagans get halloween and can flood us with pentagrams
lets stick up the aum symbol in august
i dont know what are buddhist holidays
muslims will keep a low profile like always even though our holiday is a whole month long
nobody will fight!
(unless everyone tries to horn in on others holidays that is...
December 19, 2006 11:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
NO HOLIDAY- I THINK THATS A SPLENDID IDEA!!!
MY HOLIDAY(RAMADAN) LASTS ONE LOOOOONG MONTH.
WAKING UP AT 4AM AND PREPARING FOOD AND EATING AND THEN PRAYING- THEN FASTING- NO FOOD WATER-SEX- NOTHING PUT IN YOUR MOUTH TIL THE SUN GOES DOWN-
AND WORKING ALL DAY HUNGRY AND THIRSTY TIL 730-OR 830-IT DEPENDS WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN.
I THINK IT WOULD BE MARVELOUS IF ALL AMERICANS WERE DOING NOTHING BUT COMMUNITY SERVICE FOR A WHOLE MONTH!
O- YOU MEAN ONLY CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS WILL BE HONORED IN THAT WAY?
THATS OK, WORKING DURING RAMADAN IS HAAARD.
December 18, 2006 9:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I believe it is important for children to be raised in one faith. My experience is that when children are raised, for instance, by a father who is a Christian and a mother who is Jewish, there is great confusion and anxiety for the children.
This is a delicate issue. If children are raised in one faith, the faith of the other parent can be acknowledged. And the children should be told that it was a joint decision to raise the children in one faith.
December 18, 2006 8:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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December 13, 2006 1:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes CJ, believe in yourself for it's the only thing you can believe in. Your mind anyway, there's no proof your body actually exists. Nor God, nor your computer screen, nor anything outside your own head. There's no legitimate evidence that a world exists outside your mind therefore the existence of the world must be a myth.
December 13, 2006 1:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Hello.
Paxil.
Bye.
December 13, 2006 1:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Create a homemade book on your computer to help tell your children about your faith.
It is a good exercise for parents because you have to decide what you really do believe. Children easily see through insincerity. You can't just rattle off a denominational line of rhetoric. They will call you on it and demand, "why do you believe that?!"
The book I made is posted for family and friends at http://linuxined.org. I read it to my kids when I get the chance and ask, "what do you think?"
December 13, 2006 10:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The bible tells people to not be unequally yolked, so I think that Christians should probably follow this teaching. For people of other beliefs, I would say to follow the dictates of your own conscience. I do firmly believe that a unity between parents can have a positive effect on children, but I was raised a single child in a faith I reject and I am now a strong christian so I think that God can lead people anywhere he wants despite their circumstances.
December 13, 2006 2:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I was raised Jewish, my wife Protestant. The children were not given any religious teaching. Believe it or not, they never asked about God.
If they had, we would have told them that, while we didn't believe in God, they were free to make up their own minds.
They have grown up to be remarkably ethical and moral people, not because they fear divine punishment, but because they are answerable to their own consciences.
December 12, 2006 11:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I think a mixed marriage is a kind of blessing because it really forces one to look into the deeper meaning of faith. Spirituality helps as an anchor whether one believes in a God who is a sort of parent (like in the Judaic traditions) or a God who is within us (like in the Eastern traditions). One could merge the two by teaching children that the core of all religions is the same - and all other differences are irrelevant. The ideal message parents should give by their own example is that what matters is a belief in goodness being its own reward. This is true for all parents not just ones of mixed marriages.
December 12, 2006 11:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]
December 12, 2006 11:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I would first have an open and intelligent conversation with my spouse about what we want our child to be introduced to. We wouldn't use faith as a tool to make our child obediant. We would want our child to do what's right, not because we scare the kid with threats of hell, but because we want her/him to do whats right out of a genuine sense of virtue. To teach the kid that virtue is indeed it's own reward.
We would teach our child to respect other faiths, because we're all on the same quest, but merely take different paths.
I would teach our child about Nature. To teach him/her the wonders of the real world. To instill a knowledge of the natural conduct of life, present in everything.
I would keep it as light as possible, not demanding, but rather matter of factly. I would teach them not to fear a vengeful God, that they would be subjected to outside the home, via friends, school, and the neighborhood. Children learn at a much faster rate than us elder folk. (so to speak) We would teach the child the Golden Rule, and why it is so important in life.
But, no matter how much teaching, the child would see us the parents as living examples of the knowledge we want to instill. Eventually, the child will find his/her own path. It is just up to us, that they be taught the truth of this world, to give a better direction to start from.
December 12, 2006 5:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
What bothers me is that you equate religious faith with "belief in (a) God". I consider myself a religious person (Buddhist) but do not believe in any god whatsoever. I see God as an attempt to conceptualize the unknowable within the limited cognitive framework of the human mind. Due to its limitations and irrationalities, such belief can lead to psychological and social problems.
December 12, 2006 1:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
What a man truly desires is unfailing love, better to poor than a liar.
We are all looking for unfailing love. It, ultimately, is what we pursue. Not money, popularity or power. Those are simply counterfeit attempts to gain unfailing love. They fail to satisfy.
The amazing thing about the truth is that it is best found in the light. Learning to live one's life without having to hide anything, in the light, is central to finding the truth. Lies are opposite to truth. They misrepresent what happened or who we are. The truth never has anything to hide. Which is why it allows lies to propagate around it. If people want truth, they will have to find it, they will have to show a disatisfaction with the lie.
Let's quit hiding and come out into the light. Search for unfailing love. Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.
Pursue these things and love, light and truth will surely be the reward.
December 12, 2006 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Children need to have "the God question" placed in context. First, they need to know that most people most of the time are cruel, self-centered, and irrational. Second, they need to know that discussion of "the God question" usually brings out the worst in others and should be avoided at all costs. Third, they need to know that it's an open question as to whether or not the Universe was created but that, if the Universe had a creator, this creator is unworthy of worship as a God because he designed a Universe in which it is inevitable that sentient beings must suffer: life is a cruel game of winners and losers in the crap shoot of the food chain, genetic mutation, etc., etc. Better to live one's life in the expectation that virtue will be its own and its only reward and that one gets no second chances in an afterlife among "the chosen by God."
December 12, 2006 12:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Norman I think it is amazing that you have all that respect for them still. As an ex-christian myself I do not believe that lack of faith was the sole reason you decided to 'quit' but why would you want to raise your daughter to be indoctrinated into your wifes religion? I understand her going and being a part of the community that her mother is part of and even learning the more broad messages of 'love' the church can provide, but why would you wish her to believe that this faith- this particular belief would be the one you would prefer her to have? Can you not have her learn about religion on her own as well as her mother's faith and allow her to choose what she believes?
Parenting is hard- we have a responibility to teach our children a sense of moral responsibility, a 'code of ethics' if you will. Those who have a personal belief that their child soul will be damned if they do not believe as they do obviously are frightened into perpetuating the belif system on their child. Surely if I thought my child's soul was in danger I would do everything in my power to prevent it. However, even GOD recognizes that we can not force another to choose to believe. Free will is something that should be nurtured. Religion and the ability to make choices regarding it should be allowed to develop naturally just like other decision making abilities. I-personally- am pagan. I allow my son to know what I believe but I never tell him THIS is the truth, in fact I usually make it a point to tell him examples of other way's people believe. Far from confusing him by conflicting what he ALREADY thinks with a TRUTH I cannot prove, I give him the tools to form and perhaps later RE-form his own beliefs. If my son wants to vary with me on personal belief I will just be happy that I taught him to think for himself rather than be pressured into 'believing' in something that he may have questions about or not fully think is right.
Sorry to be long winded I hope that helped.
December 12, 2006 12:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Nine years ago, when my wife and I decided to prepare our wedding, she would especially like her minister to preside the wedding. Her minister declined the request because I was not a Christian. Therefore, I was stuck in the middle either to have a perfect wedding with the minister presiding the wedding or no wedding at all. It took me more than six months of "intensive" studying to become a Christian before we got married with the minister presiding the wedding ceremony. Now, we have a 5-year child. Our family life is wonderful, and I still have tremendous respect to the minister, who stood firm on his principle.
After getting married, I went to Church regularly for the first a few years, then, on and off for a while. I have attended numerous bible studies, classes, man's conference, genuinely thought, discussed, studied, argued the religion. Although I have more knowledge than my wife who just believes, I do not have enough faith. I need to be convinced; not bluntly accepted. Besides, I felt that Christians were being fooled by politicians.
So, finally after seven~eight years of struggling for my Christian faith (going to Church, pray, but, do not have enough faith in God), I decide to "quit". Now, I feel more comfortable (not fool myself and not fool God if there is one).
In fact, I am open to Christianity. And, unexplainably, I even introduced it too several friends. As for my child, I do not mind him going Church with my wife to learn whatever they teach. Maybe, because he went to Church at young age, it will be easier and natural for him to accept the faith, where I myself was exposed to such a religion only in my thirties and came from a different culture background.
December 12, 2006 10:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Io Saturnalia to all and Felix Nox.
December 12, 2006 7:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Seems to me that the parents should, when the child is old enough to understand, explain why they chose to believe what they believe.
The child will eventually have to decide what he or she believes.
And that's the way it should always be.
E.B.
December 12, 2006 6:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
sorry about that john no youre most reasonable
December 12, 2006 3:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I would quote William Penn:--"To mend the world is true religion." The Holiday season reflects the WILL of all major religions. A future where equality, truth, freedom, peace and love reign. A world needed by all people. A future heaven on earth!
December 11, 2006 11:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Please excuse the typos!!! I thought I had corrected them all. Oh well!
December 11, 2006 10:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I should like to take a slightly different approach than what has been posted. This is the Christmas Season and we celebrate the Birth of Christ. I have always wondered why He was born in a Manger! One day, recently, during one of my meditations an answer came to me which I am going to share with you.
We know Jesus was born in a Manger as there was no room at the Inn, in Bethlehem. There is a hidden meaning here, which when understood will bring a much deeper understanding to this miraculous Birth. The Inn represents the House of Man. The Manger, which word is taken from the French "mangoire", refers to a place where animals come to eat. So, the Manger or Stable is also a place where animals move about, or around, or in and out. This, to me, has reference to the Sidereal Heavens, particularly to the realm of the "Zodiac", which is a word that is derived from the Greek Zodiakos, meaning circle of the animals. I am not referring to Astrology in which the Zodiac plays a very important part.
The Spiritual Birth of Christ takes place in Beth-Elohim, (Bethlehem), which in Hebrew refers to "House of the Gods". This, of course, is synonymous with the realm of the Zodiac in the Sidereal Heavens. Beth in Hebrew is House, and Elohim is the plural form of God. In the ancient teachings of the Hebrews the Elohim are the creative forces of God, and are as great flashes of lightning, or Heavenly Fire. Had this Spiritual Birth taken place on Earth its consequences would have been of such shattering proportions, that the entire Earth would have been englufed in flames created by the tremendous force of Lightning.
This quick flash of Lightning is indicative of the descent of the Spirit into the phsyical manifestation of Jesus, the son of Mary. In the Hwebrew teachings the root of fire is Chokmah, which is the Father; and, Binah,(the great Sea) which is the Mother.
Therefore, dating from Patrician times, in Catholicism, there are three masses that are celebrated on Christmas Day. The first Mass takes place at midnight and commemorates the Eternal Generation of the Son. The second rakes place at Dawn which commemorates His incarnation on Earth. The third Mass commemorates His Birth in the Heart of Mankind, as the most Compassionate Son of God.
So then, this Birth, in its first, or Cosmic sense, is the welling forth of the Spirit of Life from the Divine Flame, or Light of God. in the words of the Christian Mystic, Ruysbeck:
"....from the Father and all that lives in Him, there shines an Eternal Ray, the which is the Birth of the Son". This Birth of the Son is the perpetual generation of The Logos - "The Word Made Flesh"! So that, in effect, Jesus The Christ is Lord Regent of not only our World but of the Universe as encompassed by the realm of the Zodiac.
Thank you!And have a blessed and Merry Christmas!
December 11, 2006 10:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Da Thinker,
The point isn't believing in walking on water and waking the dead. Those are, in my opinion, stories to get people to listen. However, the message given by Jesus and all those who came before and after him who are divinely inspired is a common message. It is to love. Not believe in the miracles but to love. What I would recommend if you want a real headache is to think about why and how this wonderful universe came into being and how we have evolved and become who we are today. Or are you going to take the easy answer and just say that it was coincidence. The Bible has great philosophies to think about as well, maybe you should read it and analyze it before you criticize. Thank you.
December 11, 2006 10:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I'm a non-believer so I am surely going to hell? I am a good person-- I am a teacher and enjoy helping people-- it just seems right! I don't need to give people money and dress up on Sunday mornings to feel good about myself! It's so much easier to just accept what they throw at you in the Bible to explain things -- no thinking=no headache. You get a headache when you try to imagine how this wonderful universe came into being 14.7 billion years ago and how human life forms evolved from elements that started in stars! That is truly amazing-- but it will give you a headache! Easy way out- just accept the Bible!
December 11, 2006 10:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I was baptized a Catholic, but then never forced to go to church after that. My mom used to read the Bible to me, and even at the age of 7, I would ask questions like, "How could they fit two of every animal on a single arc?" or, "How could Jesus raise people from the dead?", and she would respond, "It's just a miracle!" So I would counter, "How come these 'miracles' don't happen today?" No response. Now I know the answer-- Because they never did happen in the first place. Some clever folks put together a wonderful collection of literature about men who lived for 500 years and people parting seas, and used it to exploit groups of people. It doesn't surprise me that it worked then, but now-- in 2006 -- I can't believe people still believe this stuff! lol
December 11, 2006 9:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Tell them the true story of our Jesus’ birth and how He loved us so much (and still does) that He gave His own life to redeem us from our sins and wicked ways. Explain to them that “Christmas” is a Holiday set aside for us to show our appreciation to Him and the world that we are Christians. And most of all lead your children by example, it will mean much much more to them than to just tell them about “Christmas”. You may also want to tell them there are others that celebrate or don’t celebrate their love for God in their own way and to give them love and respect for their celebrations.
If you can’t at least tell your children the truth about “Christmas” I suggest you tell them nothing.
December 11, 2006 6:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I really don't know if there is an easy answer. Love is hard to find and it would be a shame to loose a partner over one's religion. I personally could try to teach my children the basic commonalities of BOTH RELIGIONS: love for God, family, and those around us. Children can learn about both religions, attend services, and make their own decision later in live. God might have different names but She/He is the same divine Being. YES, I DO BELIEVE IN HER/HIM.
HAVE A PEACEFUL AND PROSPEROUS HOLIDAY
December 11, 2006 4:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Describing God in an interfaith marriage is not the problem. The teaching about God in most major faiths are too similar to have any discord. It is the teachings on why things are right or wrong is where things get sticky. However, the thing to always keep in mind in these explanations is that message is what matters, and not who delivers it. Call him Son, Messiah, Prophet, or anything, is what Jesus taught relevant? Yes, to all religions peace and love matter. What the world needs is a deep understanding of love and peace and not trying to explain the differences.
December 11, 2006 2:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I would start by telling them the truth about what the BIBLE really teaches and not what the government (man's law) wants us to learn. My parents taught me "traditions, customs, ideas" from man and not the BIBLE. If I would have known this while growing up, I WOULD HAVE KNOWN that there's no such thing as SANTA, HOLLOWEEN, EASTER BUNNY! These are "man made" holidays only because it brings BIG DOLLARS to the economy. Instead I would read to my children what
2 Timothy 3:15,16,17 says: "and that from infancy you have known the holy writingsm which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. All Scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent completely equipped for every good work".
And who is this God they might ask? then
I would read Psalm 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
December 11, 2006 1:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The last comment was by me.
December 11, 2006 1:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Michael C said "as to how do I know if there is such a being, I would say that is what faith really is all about, and ask: can you prove otherwise?"
It's the other way around. As long as there is no evidence for such a being, why believe in one? Do you believe in unicorns as well? (especially invisible pink ones...) Why make stuff up instead of being honest and saying 'this is what I know, the rest I don't'?
December 11, 2006 1:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Nascent (before Rome) Christianity was Jefferson's source on human rights. Nascent Christianity was from the start a rejection of Judaism and Romanism, the two belief systems that saw to the Christ's death. Judaism was imposed upon nascent Christianity by Constantine in the early 4th century, in the name of Roman despotism and Roman conquest and control.
That Roman denigration fueled imperialism for over a millennium, it fueled colonialism for half a millennium and it has fueled corporate capitalism over the past half century.
Anyone who believes Rome did the Christ a favor is dead wrong. Old Testament Romanism has never acted on Christian values, it has only practiced conquest and control in the name of Christian values. That despotic program was rejected by Jefferson and replaced with nascent Christian human rights in the Declaration.
The Republican right wing has brought all of that despotism back in the name of capitalism's unfair dominion since World War II. If American's want the Christ back in American life they have no option but to return to the Declaration's values and to reconsider the implementation of nascent Christian human rights at the expense of Roman despotism.
December 11, 2006 12:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
First, marrying someone who is not of the same faith is simply asking for trouble.
Second, if you do not have an acurate belief system, you will not give your children an acurate belief system.
There is only one acurate belief system. The best panel member to explain it would be Albert Mohler. Read the Bible. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven.
December 11, 2006 11:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Ann is right when she says we should listen to how our children describe God.
Recently an extremely racist man was admitted to the hospital where my son is also a resident. Alot of the staff is justifiably upset about having to deal with him and put up with his insults and verbal abuse.
My son got into the practice of stopping by the man's room to visit for a few minutes each day.
Me and my son talked about this and he was told that when hateful language was to describe certain staff my son could say and should say that so and so is my friend, please don't talk like that about them in front of me. And my son said he did this. Although the derogatory comments have abated to a certain degree the hateful sentiment is still there.
I asked my son how he can interact with this man and he said to me "Mom, you got to love everyone."
Maybe being exposed to the loving accepting nature of my son is divine intervention to help this man become less ignorant. This child of mine has certainly been divine intervention for me.
My son was told that he a better person and more tolerant than me because when the man comes into my son's room I have to get up and leave.
December 11, 2006 8:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
ps i tend to not like copy and pastes but i wanted you to see the words themselves so you could see there were no curses contained- there are more ayats on Jesus(ata)
o BTWmy father was an atheist and my mother changed her views with whoever walked into the room and convinced her at any given moment- in other words she kind of followed my spiritual progress-
i asked to go to church when i was 6ish and mymother wasnt thrilled with having to get us up on her onlyday off but she did- and i dragged my lil bro with me who pulled my hair the whole way and spent his collection money on candy.
December 11, 2006 12:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
jim i wasnt implying that you knocked me over the head sorry i wasnt clear
now as to saying the quran says jesus is god i never encountered this idea in the quran
“This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was
adam and Jesus(ata) shared humanity and no earthly father
A. Regarding The Sonship Of Jesus:
“Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is.”
let alone beget a god...
“O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”
Chapter 4, Verse 171
and finally Jesus(ata) Himself speaks:
“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit `Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.” Chapter 5, Verses 116-117
no curses there
peace
December 11, 2006 12:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Raised by tolerent agnostics,
I've been a bible student for over 60 years...
(And have done graduate work in theology in three
different seminaries...)
None of which was an assist to becomeing closer to 'god'. I sincerely believe that any discussion
of the god in whom )or which) you believe,
is a minimalist view.
(i.e., 'god' is beyond human comprehension...(Job))
...but I do believe at times I hear echoes...:-)
My grown children are multi-religionists, (if
that be a word)happy in their toleration as am I.
Jesus is said to have said: The kingdom of God is at hand...live life more abundently, my purpose is to have you share my joy, the truth will set you free.
That would pretty much be my epitome...
(Did I forget to mention love yourself and neighbor? :-)
December 10, 2006 9:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Raised by tolerent agnostics,
I've been a bible student for over 60 years...
(And have done graduate work in theology in three
different seminaries...)
None of which was an assist to becomeing closer to 'god'. I sincerely believe that any discussion
of the god in whom )or which) you believe,
is a minimalist view.
(i.e., 'god' is beyond human comprehension...(Job))
...but I do believe at times I hear echoes...:-)
My grown children are multi-religionists, (if
that be a word)happy in their toleration as am I.
Jesus is said to have said: The kingdom of God is at hand...live life more abundently, my purpose is to have you share my joy, the truth will set you free.
That would pretty much be my epitome...
(Did I forget to mention love yourself and neighbor? :-)
December 10, 2006 9:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria:
I think you were responding to me (Jim?).
I'm not upset with you. I don't think you were harsh. I was just answering a question posted by SAUL2006, so I'm not sure why you felt as if I was hitting you over the head.
If you think I was not being clear, I'll try again:
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
So, a child is going to be born who will be called "God" and "Father". I'm not sure how else take that verse. So, what other Jew has come and claimed He was God?
This is the foundation of the Christian faith. I'm not making it up. We rest on Scripture because that's practically all we know about Jesus.
And, the Qur'an does say that Jesus is not God. I read it with my own eyes, in a printed copy, not the internet.
Saul originally asked what OT prophet said the Messiah would take over for God. I was responding to indicate that the Messiah would BE God. That's just what we believe. It seems clear to me. That verse is not complicated.
And, yes, you could take any verse out of the bible and twist it, but I always read it in context, relying on what it says on the whole first.
I enjoy some of the comments on this board, but some people get too emotional and personal. I hope I'm not one of them. I'm trying to keep it objective.
December 10, 2006 7:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Jim i always try to stay above the fray and not insult anyones belief system- ive seen so many opinions form people about islam that havent the first clue as theyve never read a word of what they think theyre quoting.
im not in your head so im not making the connections you obviously are- try and present your statements from an impartial viewpoint- when i make a post of an ayat(verse) i try to imagine how it impacts on others thought processes, i dont assume others have the same mondset that i do and will come to the same conclusions- in that way i can learn more about myself too-
i think its upsetting when people state absolutes as a given- we all dont see it that way.
christians are not cursed in the Qur'an.
i dont know where you got this idea.
there are literally hundreds of biblical quotes that i could take out of context and if you read the body of such a post- you would not recognize your own religion in it.
im sorry if i was harsh to you- i just get tired of being hit over the head sometimes.
i promise to have better manners in the future, really i am sorry if you felt i was hard.
peace i mean im sorry for my actions not how it made you feel
December 10, 2006 7:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
This will never happen in overly-Christian America, but parents need to let their children decide on their own what, if any, religion to follow.
Sure, parents can tell kids what they, the parents, believe. But it's FAR more important that parents teach their children how to get along in the world, and the proper way to do so socially. That is, point out the Ten Commandments and its recommendations, but remember that most major religions have the same basic "sins" that humans should avoid.
Seeing scary movies like those nasty, brainwashed kids at that Christian camp should give pause to anyone trying to brainwash their kids about the exclusionary merits of some intolerant religion. I must point to born-again zealots as an example of the latter.
December 10, 2006 5:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
KathyH wrote:
"There needs to be unity in the family, as I have seen adult children of these families. Not just walk away from one of the faith's but walk away from them all."
That's a good thing, right? Seems to me that those who walked away realized that faith doesn't correspond to reality.
December 10, 2006 4:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
To any and everyone who "pounds" on me and my opinion. I have no anger, bitterness or anything else towards you. I am just plainly stating what I have seen in my life with this topic. And I'm glad that there are marriages out there that have made it through the tough times.
But also, please remember that there will be a time when the children are gone. And don't create the marriage around the child, but around your union to your spouse. It was when the children left that the marrages I have seen fell apart. if you can't meet together in your faith find something that is common between you.
I hope and pray people see I am not trying to hurt them. But this topic is near and dear to me, as I have seen the results of mistakes being made. And like anything else this is just a discussion not a dig against anyone. Don't take things so personal, please. Flaming gets us nowhere fast.
December 10, 2006 10:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria:
The child that is going to come into the world is called "Almighty God" and "Father". I only used the Christmas song to show that Christians see this child as Jesus.
The one who is pierced is Jesus on the Cross, and God says the people at that time would look on "me" (God), the one they have pierced.
As I said, you can take it or leave it. And, Victoria, you have to leave it, because I believe the Qu'ran pronounces curses on those who say or believe that Jesus was God. I'm cool with whatever you choose to believe. Salaams
December 10, 2006 9:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
what guy? the house of david? jerusalem? the son?
the substantial proof of a christmas song?
david is also cited in the scripture as a son of god.. you not only didnt answer the question, your lack of answer lends credence to sauls assertion.
December 10, 2006 9:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Here is an answer for SAUL2006, who wrote:
"The only reason people were looking for a Messiah was because of OT prophets. Please show me the ones that said God was going to hand off being God to someone else."
Zechariah 12:10-11
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."
God is speaking here, and He refers (in the second sentence) to the one who is crucified ("pierced") as "me".
Here is another one:
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
The first part of this verse is part of at least one Christmas song. In the second sentence, this child (Jesus) is called "Mighty God" and "Father".
So, Saul, God is not 'handing off' being God. This guy IS God.
That's just what the Bible says. You can take it or leave it. I think I answered the question, though.
December 10, 2006 8:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
i think that being a site called on faith implies faith related topics such as religion, there are so few places to discuss this without being attacked, its nice and scientific or agnostic views arent derided more than any other so ...
December 10, 2006 3:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
How about listening to the way your children describe God to you? At age 4 my son decided God was oxygen. It was always there, we couldn't see it, it was there before we were, we needed it to live, it didn't need us, sometimes it was a breeze and sometimes it was a wind, you could talk to the breeze but it might not talk back....the metaphor worked on a lot of levels. At age 7 he decided that God was like the white spaces between the frames of a film, you couldn't see them but the film didn't work without the invisible white spaces. Here he lost me....but sometimes kids are smarter and more sensitive than we think. They figure out the image of God that works for them. Constructing an image for our kids deprives them from the thrill of discovery....and our thrill at their surprisiing insight.
December 10, 2006 2:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
What's with this religion page? I don't believe a word of it. Why don't you balance it with a page on science?
December 10, 2006 1:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
the catholic church instituted confessions to the priest in the middleages as a way to keep tabs on the thoughts of the people and keep tighter control on them...also the practice of priests and nuns itself was developed as a way for the church to
MAINTAIN ITS CONTROL OF PROPERTY AD INFINTUM,
any properties used by priests and bishops( nuns never had access to any personal property) the ownership and usage REVERTS BACK TO THE CHURCH upon their demise-cif they have no heirs, there is no one to claim the property therefore it stays in the hands of the church forever...
ask a priest for the scripture relating to these issues! i have!