Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

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Christmas is not Christian.

Not all beliefs and customs are bad. But God does not approve of them if they come from false religion or are against Bible teachings.(Matthew 15:6).

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions.
The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."
Christmas, or the Nativity, was not celebrated by early Christians. One encyclopedia says about this: "The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth." The Bible links the celebration of birthdays with pagans, not with God's true worshipers. (Matthew 14:6-10)
This does not mean that it is not beneficial to learn and remember the actual events involved in the birth of the Son of God. The factual Bible account provides important insights and lessons for all those who want to do God's will.
Matthew's account mentions that astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem looking for the place where the King of the Jews was born. King Herod was very interested in this—but not with good intentions. "Sending them to Bethlehem, he said: 'Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.'" The astrologers found the young child and "opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." But they did not go back to Herod. "They were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod." God used an angel to warn Joseph of Herod's intentions. Joseph and Mary then fled to Egypt with their son. Next, in an effort to eliminate the new King, cruel King Herod ordered the killing of boys in the Bethlehem area. Those two years of age and under.(Matthew 2:1-16).
The visiting astrologers—however many of them there were—did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: "The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion." They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod's palace. Later on, God did intervene to alter their course to protect the child.
At Christmastime this account is often surrounded by a mythical and romantic atmosphere that obscures the most important thing: that this baby was born to be a magnificent King, as was announced to Mary and to the shepherds. Jesus Christ is not a baby anymore, or even a child. He is the ruling King of God's Kingdom, which very soon will eliminate all rulerships opposed to God's will, and he will solve all problems of mankind. That is the Kingdom we ask for in the Lord's Prayer.(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10).
Through the angels' declaration to the shepherds, we learn that the opportunity for salvation is open to all who are willing to hear the message of the good news. Those who gain the favor of God become "men of goodwill." There are marvelous prospects for peace in all the world under the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but people must be willing to do God's will. (Luke 2:10, 11, 14).

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Author Russell Hamner unleashes a resounding expansion with Tate Publishing that cannot be ignored in his antithesis - Awake the third Testament.

Beginning with religion Awake gives conclusive proof that the worlds understanding of Christianity is inexact. Starting with the understanding of Faith, Awake at last defines just exactly what Faith is, showing that faith is not just believing that there is a Jesus Christ, reproving Martin Luther’s theory “by faith alone”

Gods’ Will Before Religion:
If you believe that God gave us life in Genesis, and you believe that God freed us in Exodus. Then you can understand that Jesus Christ came to do Gods will, which is to free us and save us. And we should believe him because God raised him on the third day to prove that doing Gods will of giving life with the life you have been given, brings life. And suggests that giving death brings death.
It is Gods’ Spirit to give life and freedom; it is Gods’ will to give life and freedom

If you believe and understand that everything in the law is what is wrong to God, and there is a punishment for it. Then you can see why that it is ok with God to give life, and give liberty because it is what he did himself, and he designed the law to protect life and liberty.

If you believe that it is wrong to give life and give freedom, you denounce your own life and freedom. You can’t say it is wrong to give life or give freedom because then you believe in having your life taken and your freedom taken.

These are the only two events that can be revealed in our reality that cannot be viewed as evil or against the law. It is pure; it does not offend; it is divine.

Government:
Awake then reveals how the Colonist used the very will of God, to free and save The U.S. from death and bondage, and form a nation in the name of God.

Gods’ will is completed, proven and recorded in the Declaration of Independence. They did Gods will and prayed for Independence, and became a nation that gives life and gives freedom.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This is to say the truth is self evident that their religious beliefs given by God are life and liberty. The only way to happiness is being alive and being free.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,
(deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.)
This is to say that governments are formed for the protection of our religious beliefs of life, and liberty, and the governed have a say as to their life and liberty.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

This is to say that anytime any form of government becomes destructive to Gods will of life and liberty, it is the right and the duty of the people to abolish it and set a new or conformed government that is not destructive to life and liberty.

And they vowed their lives, fortunes and sacred honor, to save life, and give freedom and happiness to the oppressed. The power of Jesus Christ Awakes!

And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, [Godly Intervention] we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

They proved that doing the will of God brought life, freedom, and happiness, that politics and law are sub-compartments of religion, and religion holds the true power. And from that day it made us the greatest country in the world because they gave life and gave freedom, Gods will.

Critics say, “We don’t mix religion and politics,” scientists say, “Religion is not a science.” I believe that these mind-sets have been instrumental in why we have not discovered what I reveal in “Awake the third testament.”

I have discovered the religious science that has the ability to balance all science
Ø Political science. The main concern with political science is to establish how power is exercised, and by whom, in resolving conflict within a nation.
Ø Social science. The scientific study of the best social plan for society outside of government as a nation.
Ø Economic science. The scientific study of the creation and distribution of wealth and national income to combat depression and economic stagnation.

The science of religion:
This is the science of religion and how it would solve the problematic sciences of political, social and economic science. In the beginning when God saved the Israelites out of Egypt, he instituted the perfect political and religious science that deals with life on earth as a nation.

1. He instituted the government of the law, and appointed Moses as the governor to protect the nation with powers of the military and law.
2. He instituted the Government of Jesus Christ, and appointed Aaron as the governor of the spirit of God, a saving government that is for the welfare of his people with powers of the spirit of life.
He instituted two bodies of power, one to run the law and one to run the kingdom of Christ. And there is a very good reason he instituted two powers, because he knew he also created two types of people:

1. The conservative republican, whose spirit, is to defend his nation, and execute the law to those who choose to take life with the powers that be.
2. The social democrat, whose spirit, is to love his brother in giving him the basic necessities of life out of the powers that be.

Awakes main object is to awaken the two hundred million religious in the U.S. to unite and Form the body of Christ, and bring forth the government of Christ, a National Church that gives life and freedom creating true peace & happiness

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the Government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his Government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The Zeal of the Lord of host will perform this.” (Isaiah 9:6-7)

This would more logically organize the powers. Instead of the social leaders butting heads with the conservative leaders they would be separated, ending the great conflict in Government resolving political science!

1. This would allow the federal government of law to run at 100% efficiency without social issues throwing a wrench into the machinery. They would continue to protect life and freedom.

2. This would allow Christ’s social government to run at 100% efficiency without having lawful issues throwing a wrench in the machinery. They would give life and give freedom resolving social science!

Economics:
In 2008 the federal budget, 2.66 trillion dollars were accumulated in taxation.

In comparison, if the 200 million Christians unite and form the temple/government of Christ, and put the entire tithe in the temple from the 340,000 churches in America it could accumulate 1.56 trillion dollars annually.

In the federal budget 1.52 trillion was spent on social issues such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP unemployment/welfare/other, that was derived by taxation.

Through the faith based initiative put forth by president Bush, all of these social programs could be transferred from the federal government to the government of Christ, eliminating the need for most taxation, or allowing new tax measures such as the fair tax method, which would free up money and increase the economy.

The government of Christ would focus on the main issues that affect the people, by helping the federal government pay down the national deficit, which would increase the value of the dollar, bringing down the cost of energy and commodities.

Slack in demand causes recession and depression, whenever people quit buying for any reason whatsoever the economy stalls. The government of Christ, working with the federal government would then issue billions of dollars in vouchers to the poor for housing, or furnishings, or automobiles. [Whichever market is failing] Saving that market, preventing recession and simultaneously saving the poor, this in time will bring about a wealthy classless society.

It would create millions of jobs and put “We The People” back in control of our own destiny. We would have the financial power of another country inside this country. And it would double the power and efficiency of the American economy, which in time would balance the world economy, resolving economic science.

The greatest philosophers of all times struggled to answer these questions, Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli and Marx and although they could see all of the elements of socialism and capitalism, law and religion. They could not see how to make it work, and saw revolution, communism and oppression as the end result.
Because they didn’t understand, we don’t need a revolution we need a revelation!

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh Angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10: 15 - And the seventh Angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (1) and Of his Christ;(2) and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Awake: The Third Testament “to the mystery of the kingdom of heaven”

“LET US DARE TO READ, THINK, SPEAK AND WRITE.” – JOHN ADAMS, 1765

This century Abdu’l Baha’ predicted a successful synthesis of the spiritual and material sciences in the near future: This union will bring about true civilization where the spiritual is expressed and carried out in the material. Receiving thus, one from the other, the greatest harmony will prevail, all people will be united, a state of great perfection will be attained, there will be a firm cementing, and this world will become a shining mirror for the reflection of the attributes of God. (1911) “Paris Talks.

Author Russell Hamner unleashes a resounding expansion with Tate Publishing that cannot be ignored in his antithesis - Awake the third Testament.

Beginning with religion Awake gives conclusive proof that the worlds understanding of Christianity is inexact. Starting with the understanding of Faith, Awake at last defines just exactly what Faith is, showing that faith is not just believing that there is a Jesus Christ, reproving Martin Luther’s theory “by faith alone”

Gods’ Will Before Religion:
If you believe that God gave us life in Genesis, and you believe that God freed us in Exodus. Then you can understand that Jesus Christ came to do Gods will, which is to free us and save us. And we should believe him because God raised him on the third day to prove that doing Gods will of giving life with the life you have been given, brings life. And suggests that giving death brings death.
It is Gods’ Spirit to give life and freedom; it is Gods’ will to give life and freedom

If you believe and understand that everything in the law is what is wrong to God, and there is a punishment for it. Then you can see why that it is ok with God to give life, and give liberty because it is what he did himself, and he designed the law to protect life and liberty.

If you believe that it is wrong to give life and give freedom, you denounce your own life and freedom. You can’t say it is wrong to give life or give freedom because then you believe in having your life taken and your freedom taken.

These are the only two events that can be revealed in our reality that cannot be viewed as evil or against the law. It is pure; it does not offend; it is divine.

Government:
Awake then reveals how the Colonist used the very will of God, to free and save The U.S. from death and bondage, and form a nation in the name of God.

Gods’ will is completed, proven and recorded in the Declaration of Independence. They did Gods will and prayed for Independence, and became a nation that gives life and gives freedom.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This is to say the truth is self evident that their religious beliefs given by God are life and liberty. The only way to happiness is being alive and being free.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,
(deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.)
This is to say that governments are formed for the protection of our religious beliefs of life, and liberty, and the governed have a say as to their life and liberty.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

This is to say that anytime any form of government becomes destructive to Gods will of life and liberty, it is the right and the duty of the people to abolish it and set a new or conformed government that is not destructive to life and liberty.

And they vowed their lives, fortunes and sacred honor, to save life, and give freedom and happiness to the oppressed. The power of Jesus Christ Awakes!

And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, [Godly Intervention] we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

They proved that doing the will of God brought life, freedom, and happiness, that politics and law are sub-compartments of religion, and religion holds the true power. And from that day it made us the greatest country in the world because they gave life and gave freedom, Gods will.

Critics say, “We don’t mix religion and politics,” scientists say, “Religion is not a science.” I believe that these mind-sets have been instrumental in why we have not discovered what I reveal in “Awake the third testament.”

I have discovered the religious science that has the ability to balance all science
Ø Political science. The main concern with political science is to establish how power is exercised, and by whom, in resolving conflict within a nation.
Ø Social science. The scientific study of the best social plan for society outside of government as a nation.
Ø Economic science. The scientific study of the creation and distribution of wealth and national income to combat depression and economic stagnation.

The science of religion:
This is the science of religion and how it would solve the problematic sciences of political, social and economic science. In the beginning when God saved the Israelites out of Egypt, he instituted the perfect political and religious science that deals with life on earth as a nation.

1. He instituted the government of the law, and appointed Moses as the governor to protect the nation with powers of the military and law.
2. He instituted the Government of Jesus Christ, and appointed Aaron as the governor of the spirit of God, a saving government that is for the welfare of his people with powers of the spirit of life.
He instituted two bodies of power, one to run the law and one to run the kingdom of Christ. And there is a very good reason he instituted two powers, because he knew he also created two types of people:

1. The conservative republican, whose spirit, is to defend his nation, and execute the law to those who choose to take life with the powers that be.
2. The social democrat, whose spirit, is to love his brother in giving him the basic necessities of life out of the powers that be.

Awakes main object is to awaken the two hundred million religious in the U.S. to unite and Form the body of Christ, and bring forth the government of Christ, a National Church that gives life and freedom creating true peace & happiness

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the Government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his Government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The Zeal of the Lord of host will perform this.” (Isaiah 9:6-7)

This would more logically organize the powers. Instead of the social leaders butting heads with the conservative leaders they would be separated, ending the great conflict in Government resolving political science!

1. This would allow the federal government of law to run at 100% efficiency without social issues throwing a wrench into the machinery. They would continue to protect life and freedom.

2. This would allow Christ’s social government to run at 100% efficiency without having lawful issues throwing a wrench in the machinery. They would give life and give freedom resolving social science!

Economics:
In 2008 the federal budget, 2.66 trillion dollars were accumulated in taxation.

In comparison, if the 200 million Christians unite and form the temple/government of Christ, and put the entire tithe in the temple from the 340,000 churches in America it could accumulate 1.56 trillion dollars annually.

In the federal budget 1.52 trillion was spent on social issues such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP unemployment/welfare/other, that was derived by taxation.

Through the faith based initiative put forth by president Bush, all of these social programs could be transferred from the federal government to the government of Christ, eliminating the need for most taxation, or allowing new tax measures such as the fair tax method, which would free up money and increase the economy.

The government of Christ would focus on the main issues that affect the people, by helping the federal government pay down the national deficit, which would increase the value of the dollar, bringing down the cost of energy and commodities.

Slack in demand causes recession and depression, whenever people quit buying for any reason whatsoever the economy stalls. The government of Christ, working with the federal government would then issue billions of dollars in vouchers to the poor for housing, or furnishings, or automobiles. [Whichever market is failing] Saving that market, preventing recession and simultaneously saving the poor, this in time will bring about a wealthy classless society.

It would create millions of jobs and put “We The People” back in control of our own destiny. We would have the financial power of another country inside this country. And it would double the power and efficiency of the American economy, which in time would balance the world economy, resolving economic science.

The greatest philosophers of all times struggled to answer these questions, Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli and Marx and although they could see all of the elements of socialism and capitalism, law and religion. They could not see how to make it work, and saw revolution, communism and oppression as the end result.
Because they didn’t understand, we don’t need a revolution we need a revelation!

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh Angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10: 15 - And the seventh Angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (1) and Of his Christ;(2) and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Awake: The Third Testament “to the mystery of the kingdom of heaven”

“LET US DARE TO READ, THINK, SPEAK AND WRITE.” – JOHN ADAMS, 1765

This century Abdu’l Baha’ predicted a successful synthesis of the spiritual and material sciences in the near future: This union will bring about true civilization where the spiritual is expressed and carried out in the material. Receiving thus, one from the other, the greatest harmony will prevail, all people will be united, a state of great perfection will be attained, there will be a firm cementing, and this world will become a shining mirror for the reflection of the attributes of God. (1911) “Paris Talks.

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ALL religions are CULTS! I hate religion. It is the root of many of our problems in the world.

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True Christians do not celebrate Christmas.

Not all beliefs and customs are bad. But God does not approve of them if they come from false religion or are against Bible teachings.(Matthew 15:6).

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions.
The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."
Christmas, or the Nativity, was not celebrated by early Christians. One encyclopedia says about this: "The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth." The Bible links the celebration of birthdays with pagans, not with God's true worshipers. (Matthew 14:6-10)
This does not mean that it is not beneficial to learn and remember the actual events involved in the birth of the Son of God. The factual Bible account provides important insights and lessons for all those who want to do God's will.
Matthew's account mentions that astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem looking for the place where the King of the Jews was born. King Herod was very interested in this—but not with good intentions. "Sending them to Bethlehem, he said: 'Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.'" The astrologers found the young child and "opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." But they did not go back to Herod. "They were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod." God used an angel to warn Joseph of Herod's intentions. Joseph and Mary then fled to Egypt with their son. Next, in an effort to eliminate the new King, cruel King Herod ordered the killing of boys in the Bethlehem area. Those two years of age and under.(Matthew 2:1-16).
The visiting astrologers—however many of them there were—did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: "The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion." They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod's palace. Later on, God did intervene to alter their course to protect the child.
At Christmastime this account is often surrounded by a mythical and romantic atmosphere that obscures the most important thing: that this baby was born to be a magnificent King, as was announced to Mary and to the shepherds. Jesus Christ is not a baby anymore, or even a child. He is the ruling King of God's Kingdom, which very soon will eliminate all rulerships opposed to God's will, and he will solve all problems of mankind. That is the Kingdom we ask for in the Lord's Prayer.(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10).
Through the angels' declaration to the shepherds, we learn that the opportunity for salvation is open to all who are willing to hear the message of the good news. Those who gain the favor of God become "men of goodwill." There are marvelous prospects for peace in all the world under the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but people must be willing to do God's will. (Luke 2:10, 11, 14).

(a) Whatever channel, whatever time, whatever day in America, there are programmes of sex, greed, vulgarity and violence. (b) By the age of 16 EACH American child has seen over 50,000 violent deaths. (c)Video games, pornography are spawned by American Nation.(d) Wealth is loved, praised and killed, cheated, and lied for.

So am I right in concluding that America is not a Christian nation?

But of course there will be people who say "I don't watch it! I am a Christian. Not Me!"

Yeah?

Who ya kidding?

The real question is "are Christians really Christians?"

And the answer is what is Christianity? Is Christ really the center of Christianity or is it John, or perhaps Peter or maybe even Judah? Did they really mourn the death of the savior or was it just a mascarade, a fight between wolves for the control of people's fear/love of G-d?

America a Christian nation? Perhaps in the minds of some, but our actions show us to be far removed from any vestige of true Christianity. By the standards of any mainstream Christian faith, we are a nation of barbarians. We take from the poor so the rich can have more, start wars based on lies, fight with each other over obscenity on TV and radio while countless children go to bed hungry, and ignore our homeless. Prosperity gospel "Christians" live lives of incredible luxury while exhorting their followers to pony up more money for Jesus, and we jail a higher percentage of our citizens than any nation in the free world, and for that matter than many nations which we condemn for human rights abuses. Is hypocrisy considered Christian?

America is a nation founded on Christian principles, but separate from Christianity. Some right-wing conservatives believe in classifying America as a Christian nation and argues secular issues from a religious framework. I am a Christian Evangelical, but I cannot expect the laws that govern our society to be soley based on my religious convictions, for the same reason that I would do not want any other religious group dictating or passing laws in the name of their faith.

The term Secular has been tainted by many in the US to mean Atheism with out thinking about why government is Secular. Secular government is the removal of religion from state, the removal of religion from reason, logic, and law while respecting its existence outside of government. Secular Government protects the freedom of religion by not including it in the laws that govern the nation. Steven Waldman (speaking of faith NPR) could not be more incorrect when he mentions the founding fathers personal belief as proof that religion or the church should fuse with government. State written prayers, church/religion, or state belief systems violate the individuals right to believe as they choose. Steven Waldman should realize that a secular government keeps any singular form of religion from taking control of the government. A secular system of democracy is the cornerstone to the foundation of the amendments that allow citizens the right to believe in any or no religious system. The separation of church and state or the anti-establishment clause of the constitution allows Christian religious conservatives to practice their faith as they see fit. As well it protects the Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion, the freedom of religion does not mean that any one religion has a right to use the state as a tool for self-advancement. The argument that the separation is a gray area is a fallacy. A nation is either secular or theocratic. There is no gray area. The separation of church and state was not intended for the flourishing of any one religion. It was intended to keep all belief free by keeping the state out or belief. There is no mention of any sectarian definition of God used in any historical document of the US, nor should there be. Waldman should remember that there was no founding faith outlined in the declaration of independence or the constitution. I would ask Waldman who’s God does it refer to? Does religion truly make for improved civic or individual behavior patterns? Some of the worst elements of society have been devoutly religious, Hitler, the BTK killer, the leaders of the Christian and Muslim crusades, the witch hunters of Europe and early America, Bin Laden, and on and on it goes. Yes there was Stalin and Poll Pot but they pale in comparison to the religious violence perpetrated over the millennia. So I would argue that the founding fathers knew history well and that is why they created a secular government even while they may have been religious themselves. It is sad that many Christians hear the term religion and think only of themselves. How greedy and self-serving. We must realize that secularism rejects religion in government while recognizing its right to exist separate from government, in the privacy of your home and places of worship. It recognizes God given rights while not recognizing any particular organized religion.

There are people who abuse the term or concept “freedom of religion” without really understanding the true depth of the words involved. Lets start with the word religion. What is a religion: the belief, habit, ritual, thought, or faith? I believe all synonyms would apply to the definition of the word. Religion could be how I tie my shoes, my political ideas, my thoughts on science, or my feelings toward a particular brand name (in some cases consumerism qualify as religion). Many only argue that religion is strictly a word with a monopoly pertaining only to God or the Church. If you can make the argument that even atheistic approaches that of a religion; then one has to accept that my views on foreign policy or free trade qualify as a religion. Religion is a single or series of repeated behaviors and or thought. That is why we have a freedom of speech, privacy, and the freedom of religion within the constitution. All the concepts of the document from our revolutionary era uphold one another. They cannot exist without the other. These rights are all a form or relative or thought. They are all an attempt to protect the freedom of thought. Such wording of the constitution has to be interpreted with the full meaning of the word. For words are ideas, concepts, or theologies in and of themselves. Now think about the word freedom. I hope we all understand what freedom is. As well we should also think about what we do not have the freedom to do. There are many thoughts that are originated within Biblical religion that people do not have the right to do; consider many verses of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Revelation, and other books of the Bible. (I would hope we all know which verses they are) We do not have a total freedom for Biblical Church based religion. If we did, we would be living in a world of chaos, torture, and general madness including witch burnings, stoning, forced conversion, or be-headings. There are concepts in the secular world that are beliefs which are illegal they are the current laws on the books. Those laws are a record of what belief or thoughts you shall not hold. So beware when Biblical religion claims they have the power, the right, or the protection to conduct their actions when in conjunction with the government. There are some who would claim that Biblical religion has the freedom of religion as to fuse with the government or take on the responsibilities/functions of government with tax dollar support. My faith-based program is the issue and unconstitutionality of faith based programs and any vicarious use of those programs for the potential of converts via the heading of people to faith based services. The Church should function independently from government at all times. This serves the society in protection of the true freedom of religion, our freedom of thought.

2008-03-27, WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan certainly knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on Google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collapse the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why most of the Jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS but doesn’t fall and not couple of floors which after FEW HOURS fall like sand bag in FEW MINUTES on Google.( THE MAD BRUTAL USA ADMINISTRATION THINK world is buying that horrific joke done by themselves.)
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applied? See on Google!
4- On Google you will also find the twin towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor and their sound effects proving something else film captured???
5- On Google see Pentagon crash recording. Where is the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on Google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID LIKE HIM....right CCNL! NEXT TIME MAKE THE FIRE FIGHTERS DRESS OF THIS UNBURNED PASSPORT MATERIAL… good idea isn’t it??

AHMED FROM BAHRAIN :
Concerned
You have such flawed judgment. To avoid looking at your own mischief you keep harking at Muslims in general. Take a close look at your own self-righteous foreign policy before you accuse me of anything. In this day of internet, nothing is hidden except your head in the fake sand of your own thoughts.
Wake up and admit to the fact that your country has the biggest power and it is using it in a major negative way and your taxes pay for that.
Like a cracked record with its needle stuck, you hark on a 1000 years of injustices that I never had a part in but try to avoid what injustices you inflict today. Right now. Concern yourself with NOW.
This is my last post addressing your cracked record. You have moved from my radar.

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

Thanks for the great post, Susan!

I was unaware of the insidious influences of Christianity in this country with respect to Native Americans. Especially outrageous is the fact the the much-vaunted "freedom of religion" clause of the First Amendment was violated in both spirit and letter by those purporting to be Christians, the same people who seem to be constantly whining that their First Amendment rights are being violated.

Occasionally one encounters an eye-opening post such as yours which provides a real-life perspective of a social issue as opposed to so many posts which are nothing but meaningless exercises in mental masturbation and which merely pile uninformed banality upon uninformed banality without offering anything new or insightful.

You have motivated me to familiarize myself with an area of American history of which most Americans seem to be totally ignorant.

I don't mean to pry, but are you by any chance in the education profession? I am merely curious. If you choose not to respond, I understand.

Thanks again!

Susanc:

The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population. The U.S. has "graciously allowed" the vanquished to continue to subsist within its borders, as is the customary and usual practice in such cases. So far as I'm aware, the only exception to this situation is that of the northwestern Salish tribes, who struck a bargain with the U.S. in the form of a treaty, giving them the right to settle on Salish lands.

All the legal folderall that is the history of U.S. relationships with the "Indians" is window dressing; its purpose was to appease the conscience of those in the U.S. who "struggled" with their "Christian duty" in these regards. It may be reasonable to judge the truth of the religious "commitment" of the U.S. officials, a judgment that, on evidence, is harshly negative.

Note all the terms in quotations. I've no idea what the older inhabitants of this land called the land, or themselves. I've got a pretty good idea about the reality of the euphemisms, however: They are euphemisms for good reason; the terms are baldly deceitful.

No reasonable person would accuse you or your people of having anything in common with the Christian U.S. That you manage to have thrived in your state of bondage is a credit to you and yours. However, this is often the case with the vanquished, which is why conquerers always find it useful to be wary, lest the vanquished turn the tables and the conquerers find themselves outside their own gates!

For instance, Rome was very clear about this in the early part of the Empire, but failed in this regard with the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. The result is that it lost its supremacy not only to a subsequent religion, but to a variant of its own for a time! Arguably, Christianity is the major reason for the ambiguous state of "Native Americans" in the U.S.

Do not sully your people or their history with any comparison to that of Christianity, for doing so is a disservice and a dishonor.

William D. Tallman

I am a Reservation-born First American whose first language was a dialect of Athapascan. Many years ago I granted myself a two-year hiatus from my business during which time I "researched" Apache history and culture. I did this solely for my own edification. My research entailed reading hundreds of archived newspapers, church records, old army documents, municipal records, library collections, private document collections, treaties, Federal statutes, State laws and reservation histories in the southwest and in the Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora. Additionally, I had numerous conversations with several Apache elders in their own language. The oral histories were fascinating, though some events were apocryphal, I am sure. They were nonetheless interesting in that they presented a part of our history from a Native perspective.

Of particular interest to me was the official (read: government of the United States) treatment of American Indians, especially by official sprofessing to be good christians. This was of interest to me because of my personal experiences in the mission school where I was occasionally referred to as the "little heathen" because of my propensity to ask "uncomfortable" questions.

So, where does one begin with the treatment of American Indians by this "christian nation?"

Perhaps one could begin with the reference in the Declaration of Independence to those pesky "merciless Indian savages" who had the audacity to defend the lands they had lived on for thousands of years prior to the arrival of those benevolent European christians.

Then one could continue with the following:

-- The rather presumptuous Indian Proclamation of the First Continental Congress (1783) which states, "The United States in Congress assembled have the sole and exclusive right and power of regulating trade and managing all affairs with the Indians," a proclamation that set in place the precedent by which Natives were eventually denied religious freedom by the Federal Government;

-- The 1819 Indian Civilization Fund Act, the primary intent of which was -- with considerable support from "christian" organizations -- to create a fund to reform and "civilize" the Indian peoples in accordance with christian religio-cultural norms imposed upon them by the Federal Government;

-- The Annual Reports of the Federal Board of Commissioners of Indian Affairs from 1832 to 1934 which contain numerous references to the "christianization" of Natives as well as to measures taken to prohibit Natives from practicing their religions. The first report of the Board noted that its duties were "to educate the Indians in industry, the arts of civilization, and the principles of Christianity." The board was given joint control with the Secretary of the Interior over congressional funds appropriated for dealing with the Indian agencies. Christian missionaries of most major denominations were given government support for the founding of missions in conjunction with 73 Federal Agencies on Indian reservation lands;

-- The Indian Removal Act of 1832 which caused First Americans to be dislodged from lands that had been sacred to them for thousands of years.

-- The 1851 Indian Appropriations Act which, along with other laws, set in motion the establishment of the Reservation System, one of the purposes of which was to place Indians in concentration camps so that they could be more easily controlled while their land was being stolen;

-- The 1872 report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs which stated that agents from most Protestant denominations had been appointed "to assume charge of the intellectual and moral education of the Indians." By this time, Native children were being removed from their families, often by force, and shipped to christian (those "family values" folks) missionary schools where they were denied the rights to speak Native languages, wear Native clothing or practice any form of Native religion. Corporal punishment was the order of the day and sexual abuse of Native children at these schools good christians was not uncommon.

-- The Indian Religious Crimes Code developed in 1883 by Secretary of the Interior Henry Teller -- a professing christian -- as a means of prohibiting Native American ceremonial activities under pain of imprisonment;

-- The 1892 "Rules for Indian Courts" of the Commission of Indian Affairs which established a series of criminal offenses aimed at stamping out Native American religious practices;

-- Records of 19th-century Army tribunals convened to try Native Americans for a variety of crimes, including the practice of Native religions, frequently without the benefit of defense counsel and often without the right to call witnesses.

Because of the numerous federal and state statutes, laws, directives and edicts (the above are just a smattering), it is very obvious that the First Amendment to the Constitution did not apply to First Americans. But I suppose I should be grateful as the government deigned to make us citizens in 1924. In spite of the opposition of some "christian" sects.

A personal aside: As a child, I was technically prohibited by Federal law from participating in an event central to our culture, the Sunrise ceremony. In spite of this prohibition, my parents and clan held a secret abbreviated version of the ceremony for me.

Not until 1978 when the American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed in Congress (over the almost vehement objections of many "good christians") were American Indians permitted to once again practice their religions.

I could go on for hundreds of pages concerning this subject, but perhaps the above examples will serve as a starting point for anyone interested in the history of American Indians and the manner in which they were treated by a government that was heavily influenced by good christians. I have not even touched upon the enslavement of Native Americans (example: municipal records of Santa Fe reveal the presence of more than 600 Native slaves in 1886), the broken treaties or the numerous massacres of American Indians who made the mistake of defending their lands from foreign invaders nor have I touched upon the bible-based justifications and rationalizations for the theft by brutal force and subterfuge of the lands on which Indians had lived for so long. And I won't even go into such atrocities as the pubic scalps and tobacco pouches made from the breasts of Native women that were so proudly displayed by some European "christians."

America a Christian Nation? I am not sure just what is meant by that descriptor, but I would certainly hope that this country will never again become the nation of Christian Bigotry, Cruelty, Dishonesty and Exploitation experienced first-hand by me and my fellow First Americans.

In closing, I will leave you with a story, most likely apocryphal, that I find rather amusing:

Many years ago a mission preacher came to the Rez on his first assignment. After a few months, the locals gave him the honorific name, “Walking Eagle.” The Rev was very proud of his “injun” name and had it printed on the mission stationery and put on the sign in front of the mission. What he apparently never realized was that he was called “Walking Eagle” because he was so full of s--t that he couldn’t fly.

Of course the United States of America is a Christian nation. Just look around!

Was it founded as a Christian nation? Not especially, but the fact is that the majority of the population in the then British Colonies were advocates and members of some Christian sect. The assumption of most folk was that whatever colony they called home existed for some religious reason. Church membership was socially mandatory in some of the colonies, regarded as a social asset in others (just as it is today).

Now, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the 1st Amendment, and for good reason. Here's why: "Congress shall make no law regarding * establishment of religion..." What word does the asterisk replace? Is it 'the', or is it 'an'? The word modifies the meaning of 'establishment'.

'The' establishment can be construed as an action, where establishment is a verb form: The lexical authority of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary(OED), and it includes in branch II, "The action of establishing; the fact of being established". Arguably, this speaks to the denial of the government the right to establish a religion, ie, a state religion.

'An' establishment is better construed as objective, where establishment is a noun. This is the general sense given in the OED, and this has a very different connotation: an establishment of religion in this case is a church. What this means is that the government can make no law concerning an existing religious institution.

It turns out that the wording in the Constitution is "an establishment". What this does is to forbid the government from any power with regard religion, but it does not forbid a religion from having power in the government. Effectively, the state is held separate from the church, but the church is apparently assumed as an acceptable part of the state.

Now, the opinions written on the subject natter on about absolute separation of church and state, and they are quite probably sincere. The fact is, however, that the church has never been barred from the affairs of state. And that is the issue at hand at this moment.

Is the U.S. a Christian nation? Yes indeed it is, because while religion is protected from the government, the government is completely vulnerable to religion. And the predominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity.

William D. Tallman

At the time the Declaration of Independence was written and in the post Revolutionary War period the U.S. would have been considered a Christian nation in spite of the Tripoli treaty (written to alleviate takeover concerns of a Muslim nation) and isolated comments by the Founders. For every quote by a Founder that seems to counter that concept (not a Christian nation) a quote supporting the Christian character of our country can be found.

Based on what I've read 90% or more of the Colonial population identified with some form of Christianity. The Bible was used almost universally in education (history, English, morality, etc.). The concern of the 1st Amendment was the establishment of a state CHURCH and the protection of the right to worship for all of the various sects of Christianity. The "religious test" wasn't a religious test regarding Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. but a test regarding which sect of Christianity a particular individual identified with.

It is a mistake to transpose our 21st pluralistic view of religious freedom onto those living in Colonial America. They did not share that view, even less then they did the concept of racial freedom, which at the time the nation was actually struggling with. This same struggle did not exist with respect to developing a pluralistic view of religion.

Quotes like these are always good for this sort of topic.

John Adams "It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand ... if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." (June 21, 1776)

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.posted by lepidopteryx

Gen 17:15-21

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
KJV

The key verse is 21. I hope this point will be made.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

America is definitely not a Christian nation. I would like to point out the fact that people settled in America for many reasons, including religious freedom. Also, the first amendment gives everyone religious freedom, and prohibits congress from establishing one religion over another. "In god we trust" only became our national motto during the red scare. To me, it is absurd that any person can hope to label a diverse and multicultural nation like America as "Christian." Another person's religion is their own personal choice, and should not affect others. Religion is a great thing, but many people use it as a guise to promote racism and their own personal agendas. Thus, America is NOT a Christian nation, but a religiously varied country with people off all faiths living together. (hopefully in harmony)

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

David :
You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

I think Christians live in America alot of them. I don't know if I would say "America is a Christian nation" or not? Is all of America Christ like? I do believe Christians should have a right to practice there faith as I believe all religions should and no one should stop that.

Rev JD, you're out of luck. I'm American, not Christian, not remotely interested in converting.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

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God, I hope not. Christians have a colorful history of pain, torture, and death.

Is America a Christian Nation? The answer could be found last night in New Hampshire:

During the 30-second lightning round at Dartmouth College, moderator Tim Russert of NBC News asked all the Democratic candidates about their favorite Bible verse.

-Joe Biden: Christ's warning about the Pharisees from the gospel according to John.

-Hillary Clinton: The golden rule from the gospel according to Luke.

-Chris Dodd: The parable of the Good Samaritan from Luke.

-John Edwards: Christ's admonition to help the least among us from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Mike Gravel: Love as the most important value, from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

-Dennis Kucinich: St. Francis's prayer to make us instruments of peace.

-Barack Obama: Sermon on the Mount from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Bill Richardson: Sermon on the Mount from Matthew.

JEANIE:
**I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that.**

So persecution of minority groups is okay with you?

**I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.**

Well, I guess that answers my question. Or were you perhaps referring to loud-mouthed dangerous factions like those led by Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Don Wildmon, James Dobson, and their ilk?

Your site is amaizing. Can I share some resources with you? notem6715

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

"Is America a 'Christian Nation'?"

We are about to find out..

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Thanks for the special work and information! notem6715

We has the most advance armed force with weapons that can destroy the planet many times over. Preemp Iraq because of "WMD that none was found". Capitalist, materialist people that controlling more than two third of the world wealth ,consuming tons of the resouces and polluting the planet is a Christian nation alright. Not only so but I say we are little God ourself who set rules on others and when die want to go to heaven too. LOL.

The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 - approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote.

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11

There you have it ... our founders were unanimous in maintaining that the Government of the United States of America "is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Of course modern day relgious nuts will disagree. Perhaps they should all move to Iran where religion IS the basis of government.

The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 - approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote.

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11

There you have it ... our founders were unanimous in maintaining that the Government of the United States of America "is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Of course modern day relgious nuts will disagree. Perhaps they should all move to Iran where religion IS the basis of government.

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Bob, what you think about this?

America is a very Christian nation when it suits it. Otherwise it is not. Either way, here's a more important question: Is America a good nation? Erm... no.

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America is a Christian nation in the same way that America is a white nation: simply by majority. Who rules America? The people, not God. And anyone who thinks that religious pluralism is a Christian tenet is ignorant of both the Bible and history.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, we are not trying to kill you. I do however, pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, we are not trying to kill you. I do however, pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, I pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

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Let's hope not! There are of course people here who profess to be christians, although those in Washington who are runnig the country don't seem very christ like. As a secular humanist/free-thinker I believe people are good in spite of religion not because of it.

I believe it is in a unique way. America's democracy and general toleration are facets of its heritage as a mainline Protestant culture of northwestern European origin. Britain and the Netherlands in particular were the first to entrench toleration of multiple Protestant sects in order to pursue internal peace, and that spread to America (as well as British dominions), and ultimately came to include Roman Catholics and Jews.

Unfortunately, with the increase in "evangelical" Christianity and jihadist Islam, the issue has become, should one tolerate the intolerant?

At the first it was the land of the free. Then it was designed as a Christian nation. In time, it becomes a colourful stripes of Union Jack.

Now, it has pockets of rainbow nations.

Unfortunately, the heart of the nation is controlled by a puppet.

At times the nation turns into a big ugly machine that roars in hunger for sticky black bitumen which in turn sends a handful of men and women in black suit scurrying for deals to secure more bitumen.

This vulnerability is exploited by the dark force that has been fanning a make belief superior nation, which has been dictating the hand that has power of the joystick.

A few of those men a make belief superior nation for the next move willingly or unwillingly. Too bad that some of them don't even know that they are answering to the same old guy.

USA is the land of the faithful that has lost faith in GOD and fall prey to the devil's game.

Malachi 3:15
So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up; They even tempt God and go free.’”

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

GEORGE :
**Obviously christianity is the dominant religion by ethnicity in the USA.**

Huh? Christianity is an ethnicity?

**However, separation of church and state in its original meaning, that is meaning that the state Cannot tell you what to believe and religious figures cannot dictate to the state what to do, has been a KEY part of American democracy from the beginning.**

Right on. So we need to keep religion out of government functions.

**I dont think the current battle between the religious right and the areligious however is in the spirit of this at all!!! You should not HAVE to pray in a school but some idiot should not throw you out of school for professing your faith in a peaceful manner either. It SHOULD be ok to discuss faith, including the worship of a Coke can if you like, in school and a school library SHOULD include some books discussing the traditional religions such as christianity, islam, judaishm, taoism, hinduism, etc.**

I agree with you up to a point here. If kids want to compare religions at reces amongst themselves, fine. I have no issue with kids wearing religious jewelry, head coverings, or WWJD t-shirts.
School libraries should have books avaiable on as many subjects as possible, including various religions.
But I don't think that religion needs to be addressed as a classroom topic, and I absolutley draw the line at outside organizations such as the Gideons coming on campus to evangelize. I wouldn't give a Christian kid a copy of "The Spiral Dance" without the parents' permission, and I don't want my Pagan child coming home with a New Testament that some stranger gave her without my permission.

**Creationism should NOT be taught as science but the evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes in a free liberal organized fashion to encourage thought in school.**

Evolution isn't really debated in scientific communities - some of the more nebulous details and mechanisms of it are, but not its overall validity. Creationism is religion, pure and simple, and has no place in a public school.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

Obviously christianity is the dominant religion by ethnicity in the USA. However, separation of church and state in its original meaning, that is meaning that the state Cannot tell you what to believe and religious figures cannot dictate to the state what to do, has been a KEY part of American democracy from the beginning.

I dont think the current battle between the religious right and the areligious however is in the spirit of this at all!!! You should not HAVE to pray in a school but some idiot should not throw you out of school for professing your faith in a peaceful manner either. It SHOULD be ok to discuss faith, including the worship of a Coke can if you like, in school and a school library SHOULD include some books discussing the traditional religions such as christianity, islam, judaishm, taoism, hinduism, etc. Creationism should NOT be taught as science but the evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes in a free liberal organized fashion to encourage thought in school. Again, you Americans are LOSING the power of your system. Stop the control freaks and take your country BACk before its too late!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think, that the debate is leading to a new generation of ignorant americans. That is not good. Discussion is one of the things they were talking about when they said give me liberty or give me death.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

The American government is officially secular by definition.

The First Amendment to the Constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The framers of the Constitution, irrespective of their personal beliefs, knew their history well and knew the perils of combining religious belief, which deals in immaterial (and inherently unprovable) aspects of life, with the VERY material power of government.

Basing real-world policy decisions on religious precepts (as we Americans have seen in recent years) can have disastrous consequences.

The framers intended to keep religion and government officially separate for this reason and to ensure the right of all Americans practice the religion of their choosing, or none at all. Many of the earliest Europeans who came to the Americas did so for religious freedom.

A majority of Americans are Christians, but not in the sense intended by the people who argue that we are a "Christian nation." The people who make this claim are nearly always Evangelical Protestants who mean only their own sect when they speak of "Christians."

I would say that the Founders were Gnostic Christians. They obviously liked Jesus, despised the old testament and distrusted the words of the apostles, and had contempt for the divine right of Kings. Gnostic Christians were Deists too. So yes, we are a Gnostic Christian nation.

George Rivera:

**Are we a Christian nation? No, we are a Judeo Christian Nation. God is the God of the Isrealites. Jesus Christ was a Jew. I am a follower of Jesus, so that makes me a Judeo Christian. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, I have contributed to it, I have defended it, and I have bled for it. It is mine.**

I am a Pagan. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, and I have contributed to it. I was never eligible to fight for it in the military, due to a birth defect. But I have fought for it in other ways - including frequent badgering of my local, state, and federal government officials to do that which is right. But there have been and still are many Pagans who have fought and bled and are still fighting and bleeding for it. It is ours as much as it is yours.

**Judeo Christians have done the same for hundreds of years here. All the world knows it, and hates us for it. Why do you still debate it?**

So have many people of many other faiths. Don't believe me? Look at the grave markers in a military cemetary and tell me how many different religious emblems you see. And we continue to debate it because people like you continue to insist that you own it.

Agreed with most above that this is a complex question that is not particularly amenable to a "yes" or "no" answer.

From the historical perspective: Yes, most of the founding fathers were Christian although most of them felt agreed that a secular form of government was preferable to a theocracy. They were also quite aware that many of the original European settlers came here to escape religious persecution (the Puritans, the Quakers, etc.) Hence the freedom of religious expression which affirms religious pluralism but also protects the right to religious expression (to the chagrin of radical athiests).

Today, a similar situation exists. The vast majority of Americans self-identify as Christians. Yet most of these people discard Christian principles such as loving your neighbor. Clearly, secularism, not Christianity is the dominant cultural norm.

The fact that fundamentalists are the ones who argue in favor of a "Christian nation" is a paradox. These same people argue that only those who subscribe to their particular orthodoxy are truly Christian. According to fundamentalist pigs, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mainline Protestants are not true Christians. This narrow fundamentalist definition of Christianity would make the vast majority of Americans "non-Christian."

The debate will go on until just before people stand in judgement before God, and are cast into hell for their lives of unbelief.
I am a combat veteran, of over two years of people I never did anything to but desire to help, trying to kill me. They killed so many of my friends that I stoppped having friends. I withdrew, I became silent, speaking only when I had to. I did not want to hurt any more. I became a hell bent soldier, and a I became a cantankerous old man at 22. I have seen so many wounded and dead. Theirs was always, without fail, a full memorial service, and it was never an athiest, or secular one. Everyone showed up, not because they wanted to, but because they wanted to get right with God before their options ran out. There is nothing that binds a person more to God than having their friends nearly vaporized, but not quite. There has to be just enough of them left to compare themselves to, to scare their independence out of them.
There is something that mercilessly reveals mortality to combat soldiers. They can see death, they can smell it, sometime taste it too. Death snaps at them daily with a full set of murderous teeth, but doesn't quite seem to get a good bite at their lives until it does. I have heard the bravest, most boisterous boys,( we knew we were boys), and men, screaming, wailing, and moaning, " I don't want to die! I am not ready to die... Please don't let me die! Please don't let me die, or don't leave me here, stay with me, I don't want to die alone. Please pray for me." Men suddenly without any bravado at all. I comforted them to the extent I could. I prayed for them, but a broken body hurts alot, and prayer can't stop the pain of a severely damaged body. I would tell them, I am not leaving you, even though I knew that as soon as the medevac came in, they would be gone, and I would most likely never see them again. Bedlieve what I am telling you, it is heart renting. Years later my heart still hurts, and sometimes I even cry when I think of them. How could they have been prepared for death unless they had been prepared to meet their end when life was good? I'll tell you how. Those who believed died in peace. They believed in God, and when their time came, they went in peace. They would comfort me, "Hey man, what are you crying about? I'm the one who's hit right? It's okay, man, I 'll be alright. I dopn't want you to see me go; or you take care of yourself so you don't end up like me." God makes alot of difference in how peaceably, and tenderly we live, and how graciously we die.

Athiests, and others who are proud to claim God doesn't exist, or minimize Him make me laugh. I have seen many people injured as a civilian, some dead ones too, and stood around at their funerals while their athiest kin and friends talked about how good he or she had been, and among the last words said over them were, "May they rest in peace. May God have mercy on their souls." Well, there is no peace, nor will there be, for the unsaved. God? What God? I never heard anyone say, may Satan have mercy on their souls. What God? They did not believe in God, or any other gods, yet here they were at a cornerstone of their finite existence debating the existence of God, talking about things like final judgement, and other Christian topics.

What is there to be made of all this "Talk?" Fear of death. Death is to be feared when we don't know God. But to the true Christian, death has no meaning other than that we are going to meet our Lord, the creator, and redeemer of all things. "Earth is not my home. My time has come to go home." Death is a relief to a tired, sick or old, and pain ridden body.

There is a god alright. He is God. He is who He is, or as He said to Moses, "I am that I am." You do not have to believe today, but you all will in time because time is what we are all short of, and as it runs out we search for more answers fully aware that all the answers are theirs who believe.

Are we a Christian nation? No, we are a Judeo Christian Nation. God is the God of the Isrealites. Jesus Christ was a Jew. I am a follower of Jesus, so that makes me a Judeo Christian. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, I have contributed to it, I have defended it, and I have bled for it. It is mine. Judeo Christians have done the same for hundreds of years here. All the world knows it, and hates us for it. Why do you still debate it?

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

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"Is America A 'Christian Nation'?"

Easy answer: No.

Please demonstrate in any of our founding documents where Christianity is mentioned at all. It is not. I would also ask where, in any of our founding documents, one might find anything relating to "Christian principles" either. You will not find any. In fact, can you even name a "Christian principle"?

So there are no Christian principles involved in the founding of our nation, nor even the slightest mention of Christianity in our most important documents. Now how are we a "Christian nation"?

We are nation in which Christianity is the predominant religion, we are in no way a "Christian nation".

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

America is, and has always been, a Christian nation. More specifically, a anglo-protestant nation. This is not to say that the United States lives up to "Christian Values" or any other moral code. But nobody can deny the strong influence of the Christian faith on the formation of the country. Every president of the United States was a Protestant (excluding Kennedy and the uproar that occurred when a Catholic was elected). The founding fathers made it clear that the government could not establish a state religion or force anybody to a test to a common religious creed. There is a reason the government doesn't work on Sundays, that many states have laws prohibiting the sale of alcohol on Sundays. There is no Church of the United States, but to say that the United States is secular goes a bit far. We swear oaths on the Bible, to include the president and justices of the supreme court(again when somebody tried using the Koran (Quran) ANGRY Americans). I am not advocating the "Christian position", and certainly not the born-again position. But the United States and it sense of morality have strong Christian leanings.

Something to ponder from a French guest of the USA.

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great". Alexis de Tocqueville.

As an atheist and a US citizen, I can easily say that the US isn't just a Christian nation. I have the same freedoms of speech, press, to vote, etc. as those who identify themselves as Christian (or Muslim or Jewish or Pagan or Hindu whatever). I am grateful to live in a country where there is no established religion and I can be religion-free without worrying about being arrested or detained. I've never felt pressured by my government to convert to a specific religion, and though comments invoking the supernatural in politics do irk me, I've never felt that my public policy options are limited by my lack of religious belief. I figure by remaining an active citizen, I can help keep those freedoms open for everyone, regardless of their religious views (or lack thereof).

As an atheist and a US citizen, I can easily say that the US isn't just a Christian nation. I have the same freedoms of speech, press, to vote, etc. as those who identify themselves as Christian (or Muslim or Jewish or Pagan or Hindu whatever). I am grateful to live in a country where there is no established religion and I can be religion-free without worrying about being arrested or detained. I've never felt pressured by my government to convert to a specific religion, and though comments invoking the supernatural in politics do irk me, I've never felt that my public policy options are limited by my lack of religious belief. I figure by remaining an active citizen, I can help keep those freedoms open for everyone, regardless of their religious views (or lack thereof).

Is not and hopefully will never be a christian nation, but remain a secular nation.

I like the founding father's to speak for themselves.
US Treaty of Tripoli
-- Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

It is the ultimate in hubris to believe that God needs this to be a Christian nation. Why do I say that? There are certain people who believe that God needs us to win some sort of cosmic popularity contest.

Hogwash.

What God needs from us is to treat his children how he would treat them, both individually and collectively.

If you want this to be a Christian nation, shut your pie hole and feed the poor.

Ray,
No sweat. Happens in the best of families.

Namaste.

my bad lep......I thought the ignorant lines were yours, re-direct it to anoni...its late, I've been working all day, sorry. =)

lepidopteryx:

your post is a prime example of why you will never be considered intelligent, but will always be a prime choice for office by the sheep. The point of the fact is....the people who put it on our money never had the legal right to do so....why leave the country? I like the constitution, its people like you that are destroying it, I suggest you leave...peddle you ignorance and intolerance elsewhere

Anon: First of all, grow the balls to post a name. Differentiate yourself from all the other Anonymi.

**"Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?"

-Because of people's rights! Not everyone believes in christianity and they knew that. They were giving people rights, not like today, trying to limit those rights or take them away.**

And yet you would have your religion incorporated into the government. The founders would nothave approved.
****
**"What place does God on have on anyway"

-Thats not the question. Its just the simple fact that its on there. Its American currency.. They put it on there because we were a "nation.. under God" but now its to the point where you can't even say you believe in God without being jumped on by atheists or muslims..**

It's a damn good question. If I took a pen and wrote in "dess" at the end of "One nation under God" I'm willing to bet that you'd have a cow, accuse me of defacing government property, and refuse to take my money.

***

**-Can I have the proof to back the "only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless communists""**

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/PledgeHistory.htm

****
**"Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago."

-I dont know the date right off the top of my head but it doesn't matter when it was put in there. It was put in there for a reason. Leave it. If you have a problem with it. Then don't say. Go to another country for all I care. This is/was a christian country. And it should stay that way!**

Lots of bad legislation was enacted for reasons that I'm sure seemed good at the time: Anti-miscegenation laws, Prohibition, the Dred Scott decision come to mind.
And I'm not going anywhere. I am not Christian, have no intention of ever becoming one, And this is MY country too. Whether you like it or not, there is no religious test for citizenship, and I am just as much a citizen as you are.

*****
**"And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.:

- It was just an example that our rights are being taken away. Pretty soon our right to believe in God will be taken away too.**

Please explain to me how a government agency can change what you believe.

"The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation."

This is patently false.

"But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will."

The irony is that the original pledge (written by a Baptist minister no less) did not contain the words "under God". That was only added in the 50s when we had to prove we were better than those Godless commies.

My own opinion is that the current version is completely unconstitutional, but hey, I'm not a lawyer. :)

"But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years?"

Because it never should have been added in the first place? Incidentally, "In God we Trust" has only appeared on all coins since 1938 (off and on before that), and on paper money since 1957. Hundreds of years?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2006/12/is_america_a_christian_nation/comments.html

Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?
/quote

Those Christians are casually and unrepentantly bearing false witness in violation of the Ten Suggestions. America isn't a Christian Nation[tm]. It never was set up to be as the Founding Fathers were well aware of the inhumanities and injustices when superstition rules. The writings of several of the Founding Fathers, as well as Article 11 of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli ratified by Congress and signed by the President flat states the fact.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2006/12/is_america_a_christian_nation/comments.html

Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?
/quote

Those Christians are casually and unrepentantly bearing false witness in violation of the Ten Suggestions. America isn't a Christian Nation[tm]. It never was set up to be as the Founding Fathers were well aware of the inhumanities and injustices when superstition rules. The writings of several of the Founding Fathers, as well as Article 11 of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli ratified by Congress and signed by the President flat states the fact.

Who cares? Why does it matter? Like another poster said, the founders were wig wearing slave owners. The extraordinary efforts science has gone thru to find the truth in the universe is mostly ignored by religion. Implications of the facts are not fully understood by a majority of leaders (with religious beliefs) today. Time to dismiss them from influence of our laws and social engineering. As long as science keeps pushing and starts EXPLAINING better, the fantasy of all religion will erode. The framers of our constitution were smart guys for their time, but have nothing on the intelligence of people today. Good upstanding Agnostics. Pillars of truth. It's time our country start acting like it from top down. Time to wring out that water in the sponge, it getting kind of stale. There is nothing now or ever has been, or ever will be mystical, divine or supernatural in the world we live. When you die, you die. Time ends for you. Just like it was before you were born. People know it, it's a fact we all know, but some choose to ignore. There are people that honestly believe that some old fools 2 to 3 thousand years ago can account for the Billions and Billions of years of the Universe. Talk about too little too late in the field of psychiatry (if only them guys had meds). If there is a supreme being, we little tiny little people out on the spiral arm of a middle aged galaxy in the neighborhood of billions and billions of other galaxies will never be able to "define" it. But we must still support science, if to do nothing more that to make LIFE better for our children. Not to be under the influence of leadership with a fantasy to grind.

There is only right and wrong. And while your still here with us experiencing "time", we should all sort it out. Allot of wrongs are not really wrong. Not when you break it down. And allot of rights are not really right.

The ONLY tool we have to do this is to VOTE. The mechanism is there. We can all enjoy a clear, transparent, powerful, religiously untainted government. A true example for the world.

America is by our constitution a religiously neutral nation. A lot of people would try to change this and institutionalize Christianity. I hope that never happens because putting religion in the background is exactly what has made America the great country that it is. Could it be better. Sure, but religion would only take us backwards.

To the founding fathers, America was decidedly NOT a Christian nation. Many of them (or their ancestors) had come to America precisely because the Christian nations of Europe had persecuted them (or their ancestors).

George Washington never took communion. While he attended many Christian church services, it would seem from the context that he did so to humor his wife, Martha, who was certainly a believing Christian.

Both John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were Unitarians, totally disbelieving that Jesus was in any way divine. Jefferson selected the wise sayings of Jesus and created the Jefferson Bible, a book which excluded anything supernatural.

The Sentate ratified, and Adams signed, the Treaty of Tripoli which declared that "The United States is in no way founded upon the principles of Christianity" (or words to that effect). This was a legally-binding declaration by one of our earliest governments that America was not in any sense a Christian nation.

It was written in the early 19th century that of our first seven Presidents of the United States, not one was a devout Christian who took communion and followed the precepts ordinarily associated with Christianity. This was scandalous, but true. The scandalous part is what caused it to be written about with such contempt.

Later writers have attempted to re-characterize our founders as Christians. This is not only a lie, but does a great disservice to their memory as devout non-Christians who nonetheless did the good work of founding our nation. A nation which was, to them, decidedly not a Christian nation.

If you think its a christian nation, you are a complete moron.

Here is a direct quote from the terms of the treaty of Tripoli(look it up if you're ignorant), it was drafted in 1796 by George Washington and Signed by John Adams in 1797.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise...without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence." - Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason and firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." -James Madison

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches" -Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion religion that ever existed?" -John Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of eluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -John Adams

If you think its a christian nation, you are a complete moron.

Here is a direct quote from the terms of the treaty of Tripoli(look it up if you're ignorant), it was drafted in 1796 by George Washington and Signed by John Adams in 1797.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Careful...Murder of millions of American Indians, the enslavement, rape and murder of millions of Black Americans, total and complete miss treatment of Chinese Americans, degrading of women, the founding father's of the nation had slaves and raped the women because they could, in the 1870's one black man was murdered every day for 30 years running, in the 1920 "Black Sunday" 300 black Americans were murdered in one day in one city and the government looked the other way. The KKK, and other groups. That is part of American history, not all of it of course...there are Christans in American but this is not a Christan Nation!

Yes.

Lep-
"Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?"

-Because of people's rights! Not everyone believes in christianity and they knew that. They were giving people rights, not like today, trying to limit those rights or take them away.

****
"What place does God on have on anyway"

-Thats not the question. Its just the simple fact that its on there. Its American currency.. They put it on there because we were a "nation.. under God" but now its to the point where you can't even say you believe in God without being jumped on by atheists or muslims..

****
"Go right ahead. Surely you know that it was not added until the 1950's and then only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless Communists."

-Can I have the proof to back the "only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless communists""

****
"Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago."

-I dont know the date right off the top of my head but it doesn't matter when it was put in there. It was put in there for a reason. Leave it. If you have a problem with it. Then don't say. Go to another country for all I care. This is/was a christian country. And it should stay that way!

*****
"And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.:

- It was just an example that our rights are being taken away. Pretty soon our right to believe in God will be taken away too.

ANON:**It use to be. The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation.**
Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?

**But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will.**
Go right ahead. Surely you know that it was not added until the 1950's and then only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless Communists."

**They are even trying to remove "in God we trust" off of money. Its pathetic. It is not hurting a single person by having it on there.**
What place does God have on money anyway?

**If you dont believe, sorry, dont say it. But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years?**
Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago.

**We dont have any "rights" anymore. they keep getting taken away from us. Like smoking. I am not a smoker but I dont think they should have to just totally stop. Pretty soon its gonna be illegal to smoke in your own damn house.**
And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.

It use to be. The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation. But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will. They are even trying to remove "in God we trust" off of money. Its pathetic. It is not hurting a single person by having it on there. If you dont believe, sorry, dont say it. But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years? Why are we trying to change this country from what it use to be. This use to be a great country.. now look.. we are awful. I use to be proud to say I was American, but honestly, sometimes Im not. I mean yes right now I would still rather live here than other places. But how much longer will it last? I mean its to the point where almost everything causes a law suit. We dont have any "rights" anymore. they keep getting taken away from us. Like smoking. I am not a smoker but I dont think they should have to just totally stop. Pretty soon its gonna be illegal to smoke in your own damn house.
The USA has went down the drain. I know keeping God in it wont fix everything but I think it would make a big difference.
Why should God bless the USA if the USA doesn't bless God?!

What would be a christian country? maybe one that follows the teachings of Christ? What are those? Humility. Poverty. Compassion. Well... should I go on? America is Arrogant, Rich (and greedy), Pityless (highest rates for crime and imprisonment, lowest for money shared with the less fortunate)... You can try and elaborate further on the Gospell teachings, you'll find the same results: the US is THE pharisaic country on earth... Actually. I think america has been forgotten by Christ and is by no means christian...

This is in response to Mike.

I think that you need to become more aquainted with the ACTUAL teachins of Protestants and Catholics. Your view is very narrow. I know that everyone is entitled to their own oppinions, I know, but you are making some pretty fare fetched arguments there.

As a Catholic, and as a seminarian(a person who is studing for the priesthood), am very in tune with Catholic teachings, at least I would like to think so. We as Catholics, as a WHOLE dont think that Protestants are wrong, we think that we are different, and pray that one day we will be united under one faith.

Now to the question of is America a Christian Nation, I think it is, as a people we are, but in the government we are not. I think that our leaders of America, are not Christian in public, maybe in their private lives they are, but not in public.

I think that they need to start acting like Christians, what ever denomination they belong to, and quit acting immoral infront of the American people. What is happening, is that they are letting Politics get in the way of what is right and what is wrong. Sometimes standing up for something that is wrong, just to ge the vote, isnt the right reason to push for something even though they know that it wrong.

Just a few words for thought...

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion and I have a stalker by the name of John Berry of Lewiston Maine who writes offensive blogs and then signs my name to them. Please disregard these writings.
Sincerely,
Rev. Dr. Jon Mark Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion and I have a stalker by the name of John Berry of Lewiston Maine who writes offensive blogs and then signs my name to them. Please disregard these writings.
Sincerely,
Rev. Dr. Jon Mark Vermilion

Is America a Christian nation? I hope not!

Christianity is superb at projecting the belief that non-christians are WRONG. Heck they even think that any flavor of christianity that doesnt agree with theirs is wrong too. Protestants think Catholics are wrong. Catholics think Protestants are wong, The all know that muslims and buddist and agnostics and (oh my my) atheists are wrong wrong WRONG!

I guess you would have to say I am an agnostic, I dont believe there is proof either for or against god. And since people are falable (see I can't spell) then no one, not even me have the whole of the truth. We cannot know that which we cannot observe.

Please let this country be what I believe the founding fathers envisoned. A country where everyone is free to hold their own personal views. Unfortunatley that also includes the people that curse me to their version of perdition because I don't believe in their flavor of god. So be it.

Thing is, their freedom to communicate their beliefs ends where my freedom to disbelieve begins.

America is not a Christian nation, but is largely a nation of Christians. Big difference. With enough time, the slow spread of sanity and ebbing of religious irrationality, that too shall change. Hopefully.

Rev Vermillion, did you take all of your medication today?

Luke:
I'm with you, buddy.
I am a former Christian, now pagan. I did not forfeit my American citizenship when my religious beliefs changed.

I'm an atheist, and I pay my taxes, therefore it is not a Christian nation.

America is found on the 7 Noahicic laws ..

Not the 10 commandments.

This country is based on Judahic faith and is found by the masons of Ashkenazi descent.

Wake up america.

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/whytherise.htm

America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation that was founded for God to use to spread the Gospel of Jesus. Missionaries, myself among them, have gone out to all the earth from America. We have spread the gospel and saved people from the satanically inspired darkness of false religions (Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Etc.) and from heretical "Christian" sects (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, American Baptists, etc).

Before the coming of Christ for his children I believe that America will see a great revival.

We are in the sense that Christianity is the principal form of control in this nation. The beliefs are widely held but the actual practice is weak enough to make hypocrites of us all. Moral and ethical behavior should be practiced by conscious human beings simply because they are right, not due to theological manipulations based on fear of an afterlife.

Christian was an invention of the Roman government. Jesus was a revolutionary in as much as he believed truth and openness were the highest values, as oppossed by Caesar.
Paine was greatly influenced by the teachings of Jesus and the USA is molded around truth and openness. Christianity is another matter and the issue of homeland security in 325 ad. forced one universal religion which exceeds Jesus teachings.

Ridiculous to consider this nation "christian".

The government is completely ran by AIPAC, the news is anchored by ex-AIPAC members. We are a zionist controlled country, with mock tribute to Jesus Christ by most citizens who claim to be christians.

If we were truly a Christ seeking nation, we would not spend 450billion dollars a year in miliary build up, nor would we oppress the weak in the gates (middle-east...see Palestinian plot).

America is not a Christian nation. It's secular and modernistic and at the same time, like the UK, is bringing back ancient goddess worship and strange practices. The US has a nice veneer of Chrisitanity and there are many true born again beleivers in America that are probably the reason that we're still around. But the 25...50....75... and 90% numbers that are thrown around so loosely of how born agains there are are nonsense and absurd. The vast majority of "beleivers" are professors, strictly lip service and title wearing. The true "beleivers", those who live their lives according to the dictates of scripture and truly love, worship and serve the living God probably number in very small single digits indeed. Wish it were otherwise, but from where I sit and experienced, don't see it otherwise.

Jihadist..
I was referring to the American freedom of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.
There are currently muslims in our country trying to sue in our courts and impose their religious restrictions on all. One town is currently fighting against muslim taxi drivers who do not want to transport passengers who have alcohol or tobacco products in their grocery bags.
I say, if you are unable to perform the duties of your job, you need to find another line of work.
No offense, just truth. Hope this answers your question.
Peace!

Sailor:
Yours statement was instructive and nicely written.
Thanks,
Jim

Sailor:
Yours statement was instructive and nicely written.
Thanks,
Jim

As a Christian theologian, retired Naval officer, and student of history, I'd like to make a few comments on this question:

1. Many of the early colonists did come to America for the freedom to live as they chose, and this included for religious reasons. Some of these were avowedly Christian, others were Deists, and some were students of the Enlghtenment, which was a major contributor to the thought of the time. Enlightenment thought was founded on the human capacity for reason and logic, in distinction from doctrines revealed in religious texts.

2. Most of the colonies had a "preferred" or "required" religious group, usually some form of Christianity. After the first generation, almost every colony began to experience, on the one hand, the lessening of religious ferver on the part of children and grandchildren of colonists, and on the other, quarrels among those of other than the founders' preferred religious group. As people began to question which Christian group was "correct" issues of taxes paid for the establishment group grew up, and others saw the consequences of religious conflict. By the time of the Declaration and Constitution, preferred religious groups were on the way out, and by the last third of the 19th century, virtually every state constitution had been amended to remove such established religious groups.

3. The language about God in the founding documents: "Creator" "Providence", etc., are not specifically Christian terms. Jews and Muslims, and indeed people of most religious persuasions would not have problems with that terminology.

4. While "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution [it was written by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association], it does express the content of the founders' intentions. The Constitution provides only that there should be no test of religious office, and that there should be no establishment of religion on the part of the government.

5. The Federalist Papers, which were written to enlist support of the citizenry for the Constitution, nowhere uses Christian religion as an argument in favor of ratification. You'd think that if this was the case, they would have used it, wouldn't you? They used just about every other one.

6. AS one of the early posters pointed out, the Treaty of Tripoly, which was signed only about 10 years after the Constitution specifically states that America is NOT a Christian nation. What he did not say is that not only was this ratified by the Senate, but is one of only three treaties in our history ratified by a unanimous vote!

7. America has been welcoming citizens from all over the world over its history. As the religious faiths become more diverse, it becomes more of a challenge to find ways for all of us to live together, but I believe that we are much richer for the diversity and gifts that our fellow citizens bring. If we can learn to live together, to respect one another's faith and accord to everyone the right to observe their own faith (or to have none!), we will become a nation in accord with the "better angels of our nature." The sort of religious warfare that has broken out in so many countries of the world has been, largely, absent in our own country. And that is a unique gift that has been given to us, and which we can offer to the world. But those who try and drive wedges between us by trying to claim that certain religions are favored do not know their history, and are trying to drive us as a nation in a direction that is not helpful to us. If we lose the values that made us a wonderful experience in the ability of peoples to live together in peace, we will have lost something precious!

(I recommend a little book entitled "Separation of church and State; writings on a funadmental freedom by America's founders" published by Beacon Press, ed. by Forrest Church. Also the Book by Meachem "American Gospel", cited above)

Rev. Chris

the only christian who ever walked on earth was crucified by those who thought they were pleasing god

There were many Christian influences involved in the establishment of America and its constitution. Howevcer, our founding fathers never claimed this as a theocracy. Instead they allowed freedom of religion which permits people to choose to put the faith their in Jesus or select some other faith. During early periods in America history it appeared more moral and wholesome, but as time has progressed so has sin ( immorality and lawlessness). Almighty God is not the father of America, but it is satan who is the father of America. Scripture say your fruits shows who you are. Here are some of America's fruits -- abortion, political corruption, greed for money and power, the neglect of the poor, the abandonment of the elderly and an unjust war. Need I continue?

> Many will argue that yes the U.S. is a Christian nation as its founding laws (the Constitution) are based on the ten commandments.

Hmmm...so what laws do we have that command us to honor our fathers and mothers? Or not to covet? Or not to worship graven images lest three generations of our children be punished for the sins of their parents by a God who calls himself "jealous"? Is it illegal to take the Lord's name in vain?

Laws against killing, stealing, or bearing false witness predate Christianity and even the Ten Commandments, because they are based on common sense and survival of the human race.

You could argue that laws against adultery are based on that commandment, but the penalties are merely civil, so that weakens the argument. That leaves only the blue laws, and in most states they're pretty much a thing of the past.

I like to think that the America I grew up being proud and respectful of deserved that respect because it enshrined the ideals of reason and the Enlightenment. These are universal truths that transcend religion and offer hope to all members of the human race, regardless of how they choose to interpret divine matters. They need only to tolerate in others the privileges they seek for themselves.

A Christian nation is one which recognizes and respects the separation of two spheres; the secular and the spiritual. Unfortunately, it is the self proclaimed "Christians" of this country, who by their insistence on conflating the two spheres, make the nation an anti-Christian nation. This comes as no surprise. History is replete with this error. From the Papal States, to Calvin's Geneva, there have always been "Christians" who insist on destroying the distinction between the public/secular arena and the private/spiritual one. In short, no nation is a Christian one unless it understands and respects what it means to say "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's". Ironic? Yes. But also true.

NGORDON
I am not an American but a Muslim. Whatever gives you the idea that Muslim laws be added to the US Constitution and other Federal laws?

Anyway, the priciples of Islam - social equity, justice, individual dignity and communal peace is already practiced in the United States. What more can American Muslims wants? And freedom to practice their faith.

Bear in mind Muslims who migrated to the US did so the same way other non-Muslim migrants did - to find freedom and a better life too.

I know the christian right would like us all to believe this is a christian nation, and they are certianly the most obvious, and loudest(and most obnoxious) in proclaiming it. But when I look around me , in my community, in my travels (i've been to 44 of the 50 states)I see quite the opposite. I have friends who are are Pagans (i.e. wiccans, shamans,etc.) Muslim, christian, Baba lovers, Sikhs, Vedantist, Behai, agnostic, Jews, Southern baptists, mormons,Traditional Dine(i.e. navajo)and Hopi,etc. these are peple I know personally in one small town. I'm sick and tired of the powers (do i have to name names?)that be nattering on about the us being a christian nation as if the rest of us don't exist, pay taxes and raise children like them.
This is what has the potntial to make the us great if we don't let them ignore us or take away our rights. Anyway just my 2 cents...

I know the christian right would like us all to believe this is a christian nation, and they are certianly the most obvious, and loudest(and most obnoxious) in proclaiming it. But when I look around me , in my community, in my travels (i've been to 44 of the 50 states)I see quite the opposite. I have friends who are are Pagans (i.e. wiccans, shamans,etc.) Muslim, christian, Baba lovers, Sikhs, Vedantist, Behai, agnostic, Jews, Southern baptists, mormons,Traditional Dine(i.e. navajo)and Hopi,etc. these are peple I know personally in one small town. I'm sick and tired of the powers (do i have to name names?)that be nattering on about the us being a christian nation as if the rest of us don't exist, pay taxes and raise children like them.
This is what has the potntial to make the us great if we don't let them ignore us or take away our rights. Anyway just my 2 cents...

I think the premise that America is even a *nation* is flawed. More and more, we're less of a nation and more a collection of markets.

*Nationhood*, in my mind, presumes a *national* identity of some kind. Short of "recreation" or "irresponsibility" I can think of no uniting thread in the American conscience.

James R Taylor:
To answer your question and clarify my answer of 'Truth- America is a nation founded on Christian principles.'-----
In other words, no, America is not a Christian nation, but is a nation founded by men who knew of and honored God. Whether Christian, agnostic, or diest, all of our Founding Fathers knew and honoured God.
That said, I agree with you though that America has made great contributions; among which one is the 'no establishment of religion' clause. Those in America that are considering (even as I write this post) to add muslim law to our own would do well to remember what our First Amendment is all about......dangerous times are coming if this happens!

Many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but they also created laws which give American citizens the freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson wrote,
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Furthermore, a great percentage of American citizens are not Christians, and it would truly be undemocratic to force Christian views upon them or to say that they live in a "Christian" nation.

Some, many posts noted that the majority of Americans are Christians, so, why not call the US the Christian Republic of the United States?

Iran calls itself the Islamic Republic of Iran because the majority there are Muslims. By that premise, why not the Hindu Nation of India? The Buddhist Kingdom of Thailand?

Maurie

Orthodox agnostic? Can fundamentalist agnostic and reform agnostic and extremist agnostic be far behind.

And yes, you may have heard of the "Islamic bomb' - it prays five times a day, gives alms, believe in One God, fast during Ramadan and perform the Hajj. Before it meet up with the Christian bomb of course for a blast of a time.

Katie wrote:

"Do I believe that America was founded on Christianity? Yes, I do. Regardless of what most seem to believe, the idea of freedom itself is very much a Christian principle."

Tell that to the slaves of the Bible, the slaves that both the Old and New Testament fully approved of. Where was their freedom in the laws of the OT that told the Jews how to treat their slaves (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44), laws that were reinforced in the NT (Eph. 6:5; Timothy I, 6:1)?

You wouldn't be cherry picking the Bible, would you?

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

I think it’s a very sad question and most of the answers here are even more distressing. I have to admit that a lot of what was said is true, but it is the spirit in which it is said that bothers me.

Do I believe that America was founded on Christianity? Yes, I do. Regardless of what most seem to believe, the idea of freedom itself is very much a Christian principle.

Has true Christianity been distorted? More often than not, yes. Mainstream society doesn't seem to have any idea of what true Christianity is. In fact, most Christians do not. But then, believers are often portrayed to be crazed zealots. And then there are those who have given Christians a bad name by rising to fame and falling to even greater notoriety.

Is America still a Christian nation? Collectively, I would have to be honest and say, 'No.' There is still a heavy Christian influence, but the rise in immorality and increase in anti-Christian feelings (shown very clearly in this discussion) point to a possibility that America could lose even this heritage. I personally believe that this will be a day we will all come to regret, and for that reason, I pray that it doesn't come in my lifetime. But then again, if I should someday have children, what kind of country will we be giving to them? Will our children have to suffer because of our choices?

I just finished Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation". It certainly made a lot of sense to me. We shouldn't be labelling this beautiful country as "Christian" or any other religious appelation. This is supposed to be a free country- no one really wants anyone else's religion to be in control. Most importantly, religion and politics should be kept separate.

Once we say we are anything, we limit ourselves to a past concept of what we are. If we say we are a Christian nation, then we have judged ourselves to be a limited mental construct and killed our ability to live in the freedom of possibility. So we really shouldn't say we are anything. We have laws, yes, but to define ourselves as being this or that is creating a prison full of cells with each cell angry at the other. Through our own judgment our country has become one huge prison full of angry people yelling at each other about who's cell is the better. The only way out of this prison is not to judge ourselves or the other. It is odd that a faith founded on non-judgment is the most judmental of all.

It should be-- welcoming all peoples to join us.

************************************************

When it is not, it fails as a nation.

When it is, it is the beacon of truth to the world.

When we turn toward what everyone else is doing or thinks... why should we expect to be any better?

It is not popular to say so, but that is where we came from and there is no bigotry in expecting a country to retain its original makeup by expecting assimilation to it.

Let everyone who will join us into our country and let everyone who does not agree understand this is what we are shooting for. If you are uncomfortable with that, there's always Holland. But don't try to make my nation Holland when it's already out there.

When we as a nation understand this, we as individuals can lead better lives and point others to that pursuit.

Make sense to anyone else but me?

Bueller?

[Before you call me a bigot, please look up the definition and ask yourself if it fits YOUR views on the issue...]

Arlene writes:

"For those who say that GOD is a GOD of vengence and punishment -- if your child does something wrong, do you correct him in the manner appropriate to what wrong he/she has done? or do you just look the other way?"

Hmmm. Let's see - according to the god of the Old Testament, the "appropriate" punishment for children talking back to their parents is DEATH. If your kid hits you, same punishment - DEATH:

Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

When did you kill your kids? Or were you fortunate enough that they never once talked back to you?

BTW - Jesus fully approves of such penalties for children:

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

We began as a Christian Nation --Not a "religious" nation. Unfortunately,like in the scriptures, we have become so "complacent" that we tend to accept other "non-Christian ideals" because they allow us to do whatever we want to do and think that we will not be held accountable for our actions -- thus, all these "new religious or non religious practices"...

For those who say that GOD is a GOD of vengence and punishment -- if your child does something wrong, do you correct him in the manner appropriate to what wrong he/she has done? or do you just look the other way? Our GOD Loves US enough to spank us, or to be politically correct, HE Loves US enough to correct us so that we can become a better person. GOD is REAL - not a Santa Claus -- HE is just.

I too feel as one said in another posting, as a person living here in America, if you are not happy with it then for goodness sake, stop being miserable -- LEAVE. I am sure you probably will be much happier in a 3rd World Country. Also, as in another posting, this America, founded on Christian truths, does not kill those un-born babies -- people who have no respect for life do.

Is America a Christian nation?

Good guestion.

If you are not a christian and you go to court over your church practices, you will most likely be tried by a judge who is Christian. The defenders and prosecution will most likely be Christian. They will often, but not always, put your religion to a test and they will have their guidelines of what a relion 'ought' to be and you may be judged by that. Should such matters go to trial by jury, the jurors, (peers?) will probably be Christian.

Every day, people go to jail, who have harmed no one. They are the exposed to all sorts of evil, such as body cavity searches, rape, assault, murder, HIV and other STD's. Families are broken and children are taken and put into foster homes where certain authorities would like to experiment on them with brain medications. This happens daily, for folks who have sincere religious/spiritual belief (and practices)in a sacrament that is safer than spuds or sugar. This is what some Christians deem 'right and moral'? This is all very much in compliance with the 'Onward Christian Soldier' mentality, whereas the teaching of "If the village doesn't accept your teachings, kick the dust off your sandals and move on." is forgotten. (Or was that even taught in Sunday school?)

I do not know if this would place America as a "Christian state" but it certainly puts them in running for the title of "Prison State". America is no longer rightfully to be called the 'land of the free', since the percapita of jailed is one of the highest in the world.

Christianity has a long history of destroying that which does not conform. The blood relatives of Christ were to be the rock that Christianity was to be founded upon, not Peter. The churches that took control of Christianity steamrolled the world, burning people and writings that were not in complete compliance. This they did for centuries. It was convert or die. But that was not always enough, as the conversios were often tortured and killed just to make sure that they were not reverting. Today, they have many huge prisons in which to place the 'outcasts', slave labor camps. Slave labor camps which are often built and staffed by entities which have already been caught selling women and children for sex slaves. Our govt allows this.

If i recall correctly, Christ was always in the face of hypocritical lawmakers and enforcers. He was always warning people to be 'aware' and to think for themselves. Well, TRUE Christians, wake up, be aware and have compassion for those who are not of the same mindset! do not cling to the idea of the govt as being the voice of Christ.

I do not believe that the Untied States of America is a christian nation. the fact that our highest posts of leadership are unatainable to non belivers makes my belief in the seperation of church and state untrue. we have been slaves to religious dogma and will continue to be untill we have a new revolution of sorts. we have been highjacked by theists over the course of 200 plus years in this country and the rational mind is a villian as of now. to speak up in the face of religion is political suicide. I am happy to see authors such as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins opening the door to rational thought. if we are to see a government free of religion we are going to have to start speaking up and showing up at political rallys and casting our votes for people who are not subdued by religious dogma. the fight is going to be a long hard one, but it can be won. as long as we are willing to stand up and be heard. it is time to shed religion and realize that the world will be a much better place when we stop killing and opressing in the name of a god.

I do not believe that the Untied States of America is a christian nation. the fact that our highest posts of leadership are unatainable to non belivers makes my belief in the seperation of church and state untrue. we have been slaves to religious dogma and will continue to be untill we have a new revolution of sorts. we have been highjacked by theists over the course of 200 plus years in this country and the rational mind is a villian as of now. to speak up in the face of religion is political suicide. I am happy to see authors such as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins opening the door to rational thought. if we are to see a government free of religion we are going to have to start speaking up and showing up at political rallys and casting our votes for people who are not subdued by religious dogma. the fight is going to be a long hard one, but it can be won. as long as we are willing to stand up and be heard. it is time to shed religion and realize that the world will be a much better place when we stop killing and opressing in the name of a god.

I do not believe that the Untied States of America is a christian nation. the fact that our highest posts of leadership are unatainable to non belivers makes my belief in the seperation of church and state untrue. we have been slaves to religious dogma and will continue to be untill we have a new revolution of sorts. we have been highjacked by theists over the course of 200 plus years in this country and the rational mind is a villian as of now. to speak up in the face of religion is political suicide. I am happy to see authors such as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins opening the door to rational thought. if we are to see a government free of religion we are going to have to start speaking up and showing up at political rallys and casting our votes for people who are not subdued by religious dogma. the fight is going to be a long hard one, but it can be won. as long as we are willing to stand up and be heard. it is time to shed religion and realize that the world will be a much better place when we stop killing and opressing in the name of a god.

My belief is it is a Christian/Paganized/Secular country.

ROBERT D WROTE:

"As they say … garbage in, garbage out.
I guess as well … there really is such thing as a stupid question. “Is America A Christian Nation” is one of them."

The question reflects the fact that a segment of the population currently claims that this is a Christian nation. The fact that the question can be interpreted in different ways, as you indicated, helps illuminate the discussion by putting it in ways that can be addressed with specifics. The variant you left out concerns whether or not our system of government was designed to reflect Christian princples, whether by design or chance.

Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

What an ambiguous question!

Does that mean:

1) Do the majority of Americans identify themselves as Christians?
Apparently yes. No argument there.

2) Was the US founded mainly by Europeans that identified themselves as Christian?
Apparently yes. No argument there.

3) Should America proclaim itself as a country whose government promotes the Christian (faith in Christ) religion to its citizens?
I think the overwhelming majority of Americans would say no. No argument there.

4) Should Christianity (faith in Christ) be entrenched in the laws of the country?
Once again, I think the overwhelming majority of Americans would say no. No argument there.

If the moderators of this discussion group would put forward a clear question I don’t think there would be any disagreement at all given level of intelligence and understanding demonstrated by the vast majority of posters.

As they say … garbage in, garbage out.
I guess as well … there really is such thing as a stupid question. “Is America A Christian Nation” is one of them.

America has become a pagan nation. Christians, instead of celebrating the birth of Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) through thinking about his message and reflecting upon his teachings, people setup pagan idols such as Santa Claus, Reindeer, the Grinch. People use this period to become even more engrossed in the physical, materialistic desires. God-willing, people will realize and come to know of the truth of Islam. The truth being that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah, he has no partner and no children, and that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the final Prophet and Messenger of Allah. And that Jesus, Moses, Abraham are some of Allah's Prophets and Messengers (Peace be upon him). We are here to worship Allah alone and to live our lives as righteous beings by following the commandments of the Quran and the practices and teachings of the final Prophet Muhammad. We are to believe in the Day of Judgment when we will be raised up to answer for what we have done in this present, temporal life.

This is a nation that embraces all faiths. The United States is best described as an Ecumenical nation.

This looks so much like the story of the 5 blind men and the elephant.

Yes we are a 'Christian Nation'.

Yes, there are various views of what that is.

This is what makes us great. This is what makes us free.

If you are that unhappy with this system, the simple answer is 'leave'. I doubt you will be missed.

Happy NEW YEAR..............

The question whether we are a Christian Nation is arguable to many. "In God we Trust" , which ,motto of the U.S since the civil war, and the National Anthem, the Pledge of allegiance, the Constitution of the majority of States mention God. If this nation is indeed completly secualar,God must be a symbol to the creation of this goverment.

John, you say:

"How can a Christian support the death penalty. One of the commandments says 'Thou shalt not kill.' Period. There is no extra clause that says except in the United States under the laws of capital punishment."

IMO the 10 Commandments did not relate to capital punishment administered for the crime of murder. If we are to quote scripture here, when the world was it in its infancy, the Creator declared,

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man." Genesis 9:6.

To NGORDON:

What are the specific Christian principles the American system of governance was founded upon, and where is their origin in scripture?
Please refer to such things as representative government and the right to bear arms.

A counter-hypothesis is that America was the result of secular philosophic ideas associated with the Enlightenment and the long-term evolution of Anglo-American political institutuions, beginning at least as far back as the Magna Carta, which challenged the "Divine Right of Kings," a concept implicit in the counsel of Jesus and Paul. Why do you think this explanation isn't valid?

America's great contribution to religion was to prohibit the establishment of a state religion and allow people to worship their own way or no way if they so choose. The closest thing to a national religion we have is the sanctification of individual freedom and the role of the state as a defender of this freedom.

It is telling that our Founding Fathers, most of whom were quite religious, declared in the Constituton, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." They understood the dangers and knew that whenever the church has obtained political power she has used it to punish dissent from her doctrines. Would that the Religious Right, the Christian Coalition and others of their ilk has an deep an understanding of the issue in our own time! I fear for my country if these groups achieve their aims as seems a real possibility.

Yes, America is a Christian nation. It was baptized at birth. Then lapsed as a Christian, then become a recovering Christian, and then, a born again Christian. We know this to be true o People of the Book. In God we Trust. God is Almighty and All Knowing

America is a Republic, founded on Christian principles. However, she is not a Christian nation.
I do not believe that she should be.
As to whether who is right or wrong about this whole concept, I believe that many on both sides are misguided. Example, some say we are not a Chritian nation because of seperation of church and state writings of our Founding Fathers. Truth - America is a nation founded on Christian principles. Misleading - seperation of church and state by our Founding Fathers. This was a one line comment in a letter by one Founding Father, Thomas Jefferson, to a church. His comment was meant to educate them, not set a precident for law. It was not until the court pulled this out of a letter of his recently that this even became a catch phrase. Another example I have seen in responses is the Treaty of Tripoli being a standard of proof that we are not a Christian nation. This was drawn up to allow trade between us and the 'Mussilmen'(muslims). This was necessary as their belief in killing all those opposed to their faith would have been a great hinderance to trade. So we clarified that we could trade as we are not a Christian nation. I know many Christians will disagree with me, but would encourage all to do some digging and research and you will find this to be true.
Should we be a Christian nation? I do not believe we should. One nation under God, with Christian principles, yes. Anything other than that would be our downfall as it has been for many other nations before us. I pray we will wake up to this reality soon.

This nation was not founded as a Christian nation (as the Founding Fathers made abundantly clear in the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli, and as Jefferson and others also made clear in their non-governmental writings), but it has devolved to a typical Xian nation, complete with the attendent wars, poverty and inequalities that are the hallmark of all Xian nations throughout history.

There is nothing in the US Constitution that states that we as citizens are to "go and make democracies of all other countries on Earth." Xians, on the other hand, have a mandate from their imaginary man/god to "go and make disciples of the world." The USA is a democracy, and democracy is the very antithesis of most religions which extol kingdoms, kings and socio-politco caste systems. As our country inches ever closer to becoming a theocracy, the Xian mandate for converting non-believers to their dogma is becoming frighteningly intertwined with a belief that this country is the light of the world and that its precepts must be advanced to socio-politco non believers, even at the point of a gun.

The Christian Right continues to rage that America is going to hell in a handbasket, yet the wide majority of Americans self-identify themselves at Xians. Statistics show convincingly that the highest levels of "immorality" (divorce, murder etc) in this country are in the Bible-believing red states. Why is that? It would seem to me that the pot is calling the kettle black.

On the other hand, the most-secular nations on Earth (Sweden, for example, where up to 85% of the population self identifies as being non-believers) enjoy the highest standard of living, the lowest murder rates and the greatest social equality in the world. Obviously, any effort made to bring the populations of these countries into the religious fold would have disastrous consequences for those countries, at least if the religiosity of the USA or the Middle East were the model.

Clearly, the last best hope for the USA is for it to recognize its liberal/progressive (ie: Enlightened) roots and to join the rest of the most-civilized world by embracing secularism as the dominant trait of the nation, including high tolerance levels for beliefs and non-beliefs of EVERY stripe, no matter how mainstream or outlandish those beliefs may be.

To do less is to insult the vision of our Founding Fathers...and to endanger the very enlightened society that they unleashed on the world over 200 years ago.

GOD BLISS AMERICA AS INDIAN I LOVE AMERICA FROM MY CHLIDWOOD DAYS MY MOTHER YOU'S TO TELL ME ABOUT AMERICA AND ENGLAND WHER PURE CHRISTIANS WILL STAY THER AND FROM MY CHLIDWOOD DAYS I HAD GREAT FAITH ON CHRISTIAN COUNTERYS BUT SIR I HEARD THAT MOST OF NON CHRISTIANS COMEING TO AMERICA AND TAKING JOBS OF AMERICANS ITS BAD EVEN SOME AMERICANS COME TO INDIA AND KEEP HINDU'S SUNDAR ITS MAKE ON FOUR HEAD SO PLEASE STOP HINDU'S AND OTHERS I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE IN AMERIAC HINDU'S ARE IN ONE MILLION PEPAPLE IT SAD SO I BEG YOU SAVE AMERICA STOP BULIT TEMPLES IN MAERICA STOP HINDU'S

GOD BLISS AMERICA AS INDIAN I LOVE AMERICA FROM MY CHLIDWOOD DAYS MY MOTHER YOU'S TO TELL ME ABOUT AMERICA AND ENGLAND WHER PURE CHRISTIANS WILL STAY THER AND FROM MY CHLIDWOOD DAYS I HAD GREAT FAITH ON CHRISTIAN COUNTERYS BUT SIR I HEARD THAT MOST OF NON CHRISTIANS COMEING TO AMERICA AND TAKING JOBS OF AMERICANS ITS BAD EVEN SOME AMERICANS COME TO INDIA AND KEEP HINDU'S SUNDAR ITS MAKE ON FOUR HEAD SO PLEASE STOP HINDU'S AND OTHERS I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE IN AMERIAC HINDU'S ARE IN ONE MILLION PEPAPLE IT SAD SO I BEG YOU SAVE AMERICA STOP BULIT TEMPLES IN MAERICA STOP HINDU'S

Many of those who are assertive about this country's being a Christian nation adhere to a variety of Christianity that has a decidedly Old Testament character that is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ as embodied in the Sermon on the Mount. Some of the early American theologians thought of this land as the New Israel, and felt that God would come to their military defense as he did with the Israelites when they took the Promised Land. Consistent with this, the concept of Manifest Destiny was a quasi-religious notion that presumably entitled European immigrants to the whole of this continent through military force, irrespective of the rights and lives of prior occupants. The concept of the superiority of America's Protestant religious institutions and society also provided a rationale for the spread of our commerical empire to the Caribbean and Asia. The idea of God issuing punishment to a nation for its sinfulness is also part of the Old Testament legacy that is absent from the teachings of Jesus, but was echoed by men like Falwell and Roberts after 9/11 occurred. These are people, who like David Limbaugh and others, claim that this is or should be a Christian nation.

The notion of material wellbeing as God's reward for piety is foreign to the New Testament,where disdain for concern over material possessions is emphasized, but is a common theme in the Old Testament. It is often reflected in the ministries of TV preachers who advocate for a God that promises to help people achieve financial wellbeing and a comfortable life style. Material abundance is commonly seen as one of the special blessings God has bestowed on America, just as the ancient Jews were rewarded with a Promised Land flowing with milk and honey. Christians in America have historically used Old Testament passages to justify slavery in spite of the assertion in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal and have equal rights to the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuits of happiness. As an extension of the moral argument for inequality, certain Christian ministers argued that the civil rights programs of the 60's were part of an atheistic communist plot to undermine this country. Old Testament passages have also been cited and interpreted in opposition to women's and gay rights (though some of this is in the New Testament as well, especially the writings of Paul), as well as advocacy of corporal punishment and the death penalty. The Old Testament account of creation has also been used by fundamentalist Christians to challenge the scientifically grounded theory of evolution. The notion of intelligent design appears to be essentially the same thing, albeit in a format that makes concessions to science.

In short, while Christianity doesn't have official status in America, it has had influence in public thinking and policies, though often in a form that borrows heavily from Old Testament views that were presumably superceded by the Gospels of Jesus Christ and Paul, and hence are hardly recgonizable as Christianity.

mr fontan- this country actually WAS NOT founded by christians, there were free thinkers and deists and it is very easy to investigate.
patrick henry wasnt one of the formers of our framework- constitution-
theres a site called jonrowe.com check it out
there nothing like knowledge

youll find out that this country was actually framed so that that precise idea (of christianity being its base) could NOT hold sway.
peace

see, this is the thing about christianity- there isno cohesive form of social order- there is a truly demonstrated disconnect between personal and social action- it doesnt 'become' a christian man to forgive and forget, if you are a christian it is not a choice-everyone has their own take on how it should be practiced- theres no agreement even between christians as to how to practice their own religion- theres the microcosm of the self at complete odds with the macrocosm of society- if christians practiced as they are commanded there would be no jails- and we would be lving in a true communal society- Jesus(ata) did not come to destry the law but fulfill- infortunately, most christians never even knew what that law is...

No. It's a democratic nation, not a theocracy.

The current vogue amongst fundamentalists to try to claim the country belongs to them is misguided. You can't pick an official religion without siding with one branch of it. If we'd had a national relgion, it would have been Anglican, not Baptist. I doubt that the people pushing the "Christian nation" myth would be willing to join the Episcopal church.

No it's not a Christian Nation.

The only time you hear this is when some a person wraps themself in a flag and proclaims christian values trying to get elected or trying to line their pockets.

In fact, there are very few real "Christians" in the US. It's about as Christian as Hong Kong, (which would probably win in a contest of Christmas Celebrations) which shows you how Christian Christmas is.

The truth of the matter is the religion in the US appears to be nationalism, purely out of financial self interest.

The claim is often made that our system of government was derived from Christianity. David Limbaugh makes this point in his book, "PERSECUTION - How Liberals are Waging War Against Christianity," where he wrote, "Christian precepts formed the intellectual underpinnings of American constitutional government." Virginia Delegate Bill Carrico has stated that "Our country was built on the Christian principles of the Bible." And President Bush, when asked to name his favorite political philosopher, identified Jesus.

Arguments over the role of religion in our history and national life commonly make reference to the First Amendment, the Declaration of Independence, and the religious convictions of the Founding Fathers (as if their beliefs were binding on successive generations of Americans). Missing from the debate is the matter of what the New Testament actually says or implies about the principles of human governance. Only by reading that text can we discover whether or not the American Republic was built on "Christian principles of the Bible."

A reading of the New Testament and America's founding documents leads to the opposite conclusion, namely that our country was founded on principles that contradict the Christian portion of the Bible. Take, for example, the statement in the Declaration of Independence, which reads that ["…] Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed", and the grievance voiced in that same document against the King of Great Britain "For imposing taxes on us without our Consent." Paul, Christianity's first great theologian and missionary, addressed these matters in the following way: "There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine institution … That is why you are obliged to submit … That is also why you pay taxes (Romans 13:1-6)." Thus, Paul could hardly have countenanced the colonists' outrage over the taxes imposed by the British Crown and their armed rebellion. His advice that people to submit to earthly authority went so far as admonishing slaves to obey their masters (Ephesians 6:5-8), a tenet of Biblical Christianity that was rejected in principle by the Declaration's ringing words on equality and the right of all to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and repudiated in practice as a consequence of the Civil War. Paul's counsel of submission to earthly authority was consistent with Jesus' advice to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's," and his example of submitting to the sentence of death by crucifixion that was rendered by Pontius Pilate.

Jesus and Paul's lack of concern with the principles of human governance can perhaps be understood in terms of the imminence they attached to the Parousia (Mark 13:30 and First Corinthians 7:29-31). It wouldn't make sense to define a political philosophy for a worldly order that was about to be destroyed.

In short, the principles that inform the American political system can be understood as a rejection of New Testament views on the proper relationship between rulers and subjects. The fact that Christian churches have functioned in concert with autocratic rulers for much of their recorded history isn't because they hadn't interpreted their Bibles correctly - quite the contrary.

It seems to me that many people who consider the US as having been founded as a Christian nation are imposing anachronistic modern religious attitudes on the Founders.

Different Christian denominations get along well these days, but at the time of the founding of the nation, this was not the case. Other denominations were often considered weird, heretical, un-Christian, possibly dangerous. Even Baptists (long since mainstream) and Shakers (now known mostly for their furniture) were considered quite outside the mainstream in England, with restricted rights.

Protestants in France suffered persecution in a wave starting in 1685, which means that some Americans in 1776 were probably the children or grand-children of French refugees. (Many settled in Charleston, South Carolina.)

Catholics in Protestant lands were not much better off.

We seem to have largely forgotten this, but the founders of our nation would have been quite aware of the centuries of religious strife in Europe. No wonder so many were Deist. Further, many of the colonists would have been raised to have similarly strong feelings against different religions - many Protestants would likely have been exposed to plenty of anti-Catholic propaganda, and vice-versa.

In 1776, if someone had tried to proclaim the US a "Christian" nation, it would inevitably have lead to heated arguments over just what was meant by "Christian": Roman Catholic? Anglican? Baptist? Anabaptist? Quaker? Shaker? Lutheran? etc, etc, etc. Which of these qualified as "Christian" was very much not a settled issue.

So, the Founders wisely did no such thing. They could certainly have said in the Constitution that we are a Christian nation. They did not, and that speaks volumes. They knew full well what happens when religion mixes with government, from the example of hundreds of years of recent (to them) European history and their present day.

So, while Judeo-Christian attitudes and beliefs certainly influenced the Founders, few were codified into law that were not just as common in other religions. Very few of the biblical laws and commandments are codified in American law.

Murder and theft aren't illegal because they break the 10 Commandments, they're illegal because, universally, a functioning society requires that they be illegal. That's why they're prohibited in the 10 Commandments, and why they are similarly prohibited by non-Judeo-Christian religious codes and laws: it's just a good idea.

A SALAAMU ALAIKUM STATUS

its true, i am white- but im a muslim also- so i have an inclination to be probably a little more sympatheitc to islamic issues-

i tried to find my own post that youre refering to but i couldnt find it in this question
peace

so im not sure what you thought i was saying
if i remeber correctly it was tell that to the muslims(who are being persecuted right now) that this is a christian nation-
there were very many muslims that came to america as slaves

islam is against slavery

" status50cent :
...And also, the black slaves which your ancestors kidnapped, raped, starved, tortured etc etc etc were Muslims!"

Are you totally EFFING RETARDED AND CLUELESS?

WHat a bunch of TOTAL LIES AND MISINFORMATION!!!!!!

If you want to know the TRUTH, here it is:

The slaves were black africans that were NOT christian and NOT Muslim but had their OWN PAGAN RELIGIONS!

THOSE THAT CAP{TURED THEM AND SOLD THEM TO THE CAPTAINS OF THE SLAVE SHIPS WERE PREDOMINANTLY RUTHLESS ARAB MOSLEMS!

Get an education, (imbecile, or LIAR?)

America was and still is predominantly a CHRISTIAN Nation, its citizens raised in the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman Western Civilization.

It will be CENTURIES before any of that changes.

What is a Christian Nation?

Do you people hate all Muslims? And if so why?You seem to jump all over Victoria? She is a kind soul.

Victoria I say your ancestors i mean the white english and others that invaded the America's.
The white racists of that time.
apologies.

To Victoria,
You say, mention that to the Muslims, that is we are not a Christian country. Well just remember where you and your ancestors came from! There was no christianity in the america's before your ancestors came. And also, the black slaves which your ancestors kidnapped, raped, starved, tortured etc etc etc were Muslims!
God Bless America, because it needs to be blessed.

To Victoria,
You say, mention that to the Muslims, that is we are not a Christian country. Well just remember where you and your ancestors came from! There was no christianity in the america's before your ancestors came. And also, the black slaves which your ancestors kidnapped, raped, starved, tortured etc etc etc were Muslims!
God Bless America, because it needs to be blessed.

i thought that the word christian didnt exist in the bible. would you mind telling us exactly where this is? just curious

MS. CUNNINHAM - respectfully- i have found mr rowes
comments to be some of the most relevant in this discussion-

MR WILSON i was told by masons that the symbols of eye and pyramid were masonic. am i mistaken?

i have greatly enjoyed the interaction of these gentlemen

also mr rowe- i saw on cspan this morning the us commission of international religious freedom

i had no idea the us had such a commission

it seems it is connected to people for the american way

do you know anything about this committee?
peace

It's a loaded question. The original meaning of the word "Christian" is found in the Biblical book of Acts, where it is applied to the early followers of the resurrected Jesus and means "little Christs." Of course, no nation and no church has succeeded in being a perfect little version of Christ.

Was the U.S. once more nominally Christian in percentage of population? Obviously.

Was it once more Christian in quality? Debatable.

And yet ... the belief that God is love, that he created the universe, that he incarnated and became a helpless baby to transform humanity and all culture ... These are at the core of what is best about America, and without them, we are just another Rome. Which is what I think we are looking more like.

It's a loaded question. The original meaning of the word "Christian" is found in the Biblical book of Acts, where it is applied to the early followers of the resurrected Jesus and means "little Christs." Of course, no nation and no church has succeeded in being a perfect little version of Christ.

Was the U.S. once more nominally Christian in percentage of population? Obviously.

Was it once more Christian in quality? Debatable. For example, slavery is illegal here now--but we employ many undocumented workers at below legal wages and, according to news reports, our military and State personnel are customers of the illegal slave trade that is part of prostitution in E. Europe.

And yet ... the belief that God is love, that he created the universe, that he incarnated and became a helpless baby to transform humanity and all culture ... These are at the core of what is best about America, and without them, we are just another Rome. Which is what I think we are looking more like.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

I think this is pretty plain, there are to be no Christian earthly kingdoms. We as Christians are to inhabit all of the earth and bring the love of God to all nations as well as the redemption of Jesus. Every year in poll after poll 90+% of the people in America claim to be Christians and yet we lead the world in violence, prison population, pornography, drug and alcohol addiction, and etc.

"They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."

Whether you are a Christian or not should not be based on where you are externally, but where you are internally or eternally. We have replaced true spiritual worship with these outward forms of religiousness. We want to plaster the country with these outward signs of religion and yet we have no idea who God really is. God has no favorite nation. What separates me from anyone else is not that God loves me more, but that I love God enough to listen and obey. If the only thing that separates me from the world is that I profess to be a Christian and yet I live the same as non-Christians, am I really any different? To love my neighbor as myself and yet I kill and maim in the name of righteousness. I profess to love God whom I can not see and yet will not love my brother that may be different from me in appearance, or class, or religion. Shame on me...

I think that the US is a nation filled with many people who are seeking a relationship with what they perceive as Divinity or God or Spirit. Many are seeking, but not all are.

To call America a Christian nation implies that everyone here follows Christ's example, and that's just not true. Some follow Muhammad, the Bodhisattva, Confucius . . . Some people follow no teacher at all, and still others combine several schools of thought to form their own belief systems.

I don't think we are a Christian nation. I think that we are a nation of seekers who still haven't found what we're looking for.

America's foundation is Christian but has evolved and we can't say it's all for the better. If you look at he meaning of what it is to be Christian, truly Christian it had nothing to do with Santa Claus or reindeer in this time of year. To search for the true answer to that, we would need to truly search for the history behind the symbolism. In essence alot of what we follow in government is Christian based but remember our founding fathers were indeed Christian. Now in 2006-2007 all that can be said is there is a battle btwn good and evil, right and wrong and each side has it's victories. WE have freedom of choice, and not all of us have wisdom in choosing correctly, therefore we have war, homelessness, abortion, divorce etc. Would YOU sacrafice your freedom of choice to correct those issues?

Is America a Christian nation? If this means “Does America live by most of the principles of Christianity” then I will say “No.” If the former question seeks to ask
if America has a preponderance of people who profess to be Christians, then I would
say “Yes.”
The real question is, “Is America ready to live on constitutional principles where everyone has a right to choose how one may express himself/herself spiritually. America is not changing, but rather, America has changed. The world has changed. The new diversity paradigm demands that America find the way to live at peace with her neighbors whom ever they may be. This is the challenge for the changed world. There is difference and we must learn to coexist with this difference, or we will destroy ourselves in an attempt to seek sameness. I am you and you are me. Together we can overcome this need to be homogeneous.

No, it is not a Christian Nation. The majority of people are may be Christian, but its people are inspired by many traditions. The founding fathers were mostly Deists, not Chrisians. Additionally, here is Article 11 of the Barbary Treaty OF 1797 with some supplementary material from

TREATY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE BEY AND SUBJECTS OF TRIPOLI AND BARBARY

"Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation."

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

The Bible says "God is Good." If God is good,
and Christ was God, then America cannot be a
Christian nation because America has a horrid
history of killing people it did not want, and
if they couldn't kill them all, they enslaved
them and denied them freedom from fear, want, and
other major needs. I refer to American Indians;
slaves brought over from Africa and their progeny
and heirs; Mexicans, whose land was taken from
them violently; Chinese coolies in America who
were forced into slave labor, thrown overboard from ships, and treated as bad as blacks. The Spanish-American war was a farce, based on lies.
One need only think of the Civil War and Recon-
struction that followed to know that America has
a past seemingly inspired by the Devil. No, Amer-
ica is not Christian, no matter what the Evangeli-
cals try to foist on us. Some of the worst evil
is propogated by the churches, and people whom
Christ would have protected and defended are out-
cast and denied God-given succor and solace.
Would that America would take seriously "Love thy
neighbor, and do good to those who despitefully
use you."

The Bible says "God is Good." If God is good,
and Christ was God, then America cannot be a
Christian nation because America has a horrid
history of killing people it did not want, and
if they couldn't kill them all, they enslaved
them and denied them freedom from fear, want, and
other major needs. I refer to American Indians;
slaves brought over from Africa and their progeny
and heirs; Mexicans, whose land was taken from
them violently; Chinese coolies in America who
were forced into slave labor, thrown overboard from ships, and treated as bad as blacks. The Spanish-American war was a farce, based on lies.
One need only think of the Civil War and Recon-
struction that followed to know that America has
a past seemingly inspired by the Devil. No, Amer-
ica is not Christian, no matter what the Evangeli-
cals try to foist on us. Some of the worst evil
is propogated by the churches, and people whom
Christ would have protected and defended are out-
cast and denied God-given succor and solace.
Would that America would take seriously "Love thy
neighbor, and do good to those who despitefully
use you."

America is not a Christian nation or at least not follower of The Christ we all know. How can a "Christian" pastor call for the extermination of the head of a foreign nation? how can "Christian" pastors call for wiping out of the Muslim population?. The Christ I know said: Love thy enemy, thou shall not kill and even less for oil. Christ spoke against tyranny and for the poor, the masses, not for the rich and famous. In these trying times even the true evangelical message has been distorted by the so called "The neocon Christians". I don't see any difference between these "Christian" pastors and the pharisees of yestercentury.

As others have noted, our constitution was written to ensure that America is a nation of no specific religion. It was founded by men of great faith who, I am content to believe, wanted all people to be welcome here. No one religion has any more right to claim America as its own than any other religion has - that is wonderful. America belongs to all of us equally - no matter where we came from and no matter what diety we worship or even if we worship at all. America only asks that we treat one another as equals with tolerance and patience. Maybe some folks need lessons in how to do that.

Prior to 1900, I'd say that Americans were *very* religious and mostly Christian, but our government didn't really reflect that religiousness. After 1900, the government appeared more and more Christian-oriented, while the country has grown more diverse. I think America is a Christian nation, but not in the sense of what it appears to be today. A Christian nation is one that respects the individual, and relies on the people to carry the burdens of *their* society. Today, however, the individual has fewer and fewer rights, and government is expected to carry the burden of society. Faith gives people the strength to carry their own weight, and to help others when they lack the strength to carry themselves. In that case, I wonder if indeed we are a *faithful* nation anymore??

Is America a Christian Nation ? I believe most Americans aspire to be spiritual and do respect the words of Jesus. But our government is certainly not following his teachings. Love your enemies, forgive them ? These are forign to our government and to anyone who backs war.
No one "wins" in a war, everyone loses. Many Americans have the game mentality, winning,tying, losing, but these analogies are no longer useful in the world today.
I think we give lip service to being a Christian nation but in reality, our actions say otherwise.

Officially and politically? No.

Culturally? YES. The vast majority of this country identify themselves as christian. Yes, we have minority religions, and they should be (and are) embraced and protected.

But to deny that, as a people (a nation), we are not a christian culture is absurd. It's simply fact.

Officially and politically? No.

Culturally? YES. The vast majority of this country identify themselves as christian. Yes, we have minority religions, and they should be (and are) embraced and protected.

But to deny that, as a people (a nation), we are not a christian culture is absurd. It's simply fact.

Officially and politically? No.

Culturally? YES. The vast majority of this country identify themselves as christian. Yes, we have minority religions, and they should be (and are) embraced and protected.

But to deny that, as a people (a nation), we are not a christian culture is absurd. It's simply fact.

God what an appalling thought! I would love us to be a nation of people trying to emulate Jesus, but it seems Christians are intent on using the death of Jesus as an excuse to live a live that is the antithesis of Jesus's teachings. You know, the sermon on mount, the parable of the Good Samaritian and the rest of his teaching parables about "right" behavior; not to mention his aversion to priests and temples.
It is very doubtful the Jesus would feel very good about his Christification for those who claim to be reaping the fruits of his sacrifices.

So what if the founding fathers were Christians. They were also wig wearers. Does that make us a wig wearing nation? I think not. They were also slave holders. Does that make us a slave holding nation?

Why exactly are people griping about the ACLU? I was just reading about a case where they defended a child's right to sing "Awesome God" in a school talent show, and pardon me if it makes my skin crawl to think of us holding people w/o representation or knowing what crime they're charged with.
Imagine you, as an active, church-affiliated Christian, were applying for a job. Now imagine the boss is a practicing Muslim, and rumor has it he only hires "his own kind". Low and behold, you aren't chosen for the position, but instead, it goes to a less-qualified Muslim applicant. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an agency whose mission it was to keep that kind of thing in check?

We have been blessed thus far because of our Christian heritage. That does not mean that everyone in the country loves Christ or shares christian beliefs. However God allows the sun to shine on the Godly and the ungodly. No I do not believe we act like a Christian nation, but that should not be surprising considering the number of religions that call the US home. We should allow all religions to have their say without removing any references we presently have that pertain to Christianity. Just because we are a melting pot that does not give people that come to this country the right to remove our Christian heritage. Nor should people like the ACLU be allowed to either. May God continue to bless America.

Max Wilson:

I can agree with what you wrote in your last response. If there is a middle ground in this particular battle of the culture war between the secular left and the religious right, we've hit it. And indeed, this point of view also happens to be the one that best understands the philosophy of the Founding.

Moderators : What a rich treasure trove and grand diversity of viewpoints by the panelists. I wish to say nothing more than thank you for the offering - some of which I endorse, much that I question and some that I simply ponder.

John Rowe,

I think we are substantially in agreement.

However, our individual bias probably leads us each to overemphasize or deemphasize, respectively, the influence of the Christians and Christianity itself among the founders.

While the five you cite were each iconoclastic when compared to others in the realm of religion, as well as highly influential, there were literally dozens and dozens of individuals who were more traditional Christians and left an undeniable mark on the formation of the Nation. I think that the important contributions of these others are wrongly ignored or minimized. You are focusing on these five influential few when there were about 200 individuals involved if we take those participating in the various founding bodies and events I listed in my previous comment.

Clearly there were influences on the founders beyond Christianity, but most of those philosophies had been filtered through the lens of Christianity simply because of the cultural environment in which the founding occurred.

While Jefferson denied that Jesus was the son of God, he also declared that the fundamental teachings of Jesus were sublime, and the best of moral philosophy. In that sense he, Franklin, Washington, and Madison were "Christians." And all of them clearly believed in a God who worked within history through the imposition of his will in the affairs of mankind, and that his aide and favor could be acquired through prayer--an belief which is foreign to what we mean modernly when we speak of "Deism."

I am happy with the tolerant, in your words "vague and generic monotheism" of the founding and do not see a need to make it more "Christian",. However, I am opposed to those who would take God completely out of our institutions. I think that the Theism of the founding is essential to, and inextricable from the form of government we enjoy and if we attempt to excise it from the public square we will leave our institutions without a foundation and they will eventually crumble.

If our rights come from democratic man and not from the Creator, then they can be revoked by democratic mankind. But our rights don't come from men. If we cease to look to God to "nod in assent to our undertakings" we will lose out freedoms and rights because it is he who has endowed us with them.

J Max Wilson,

I agree that our political documents do indeed have a theistic grounding. This refers to our "civil religion" and I've blogged about it at great length. It is a vague and generic monotheism, which extends beyond the "Christian" and even the "Judeo-Christian" vision of God.

In terms of where the ideals in our founding documents are derived, they come from many other sources besides Christianity and arguably the non-Christian sources are dominant over the Christian ones.

And just as you talk about the "supposed" Deists, Jefferson and Franklin, I could talk about the "supposed" Christians, Washington, Adams, and Madison. Arguably, those five core Founders were neither Christians or Deists. And re: their personal religious beliefs, my research shows they were agreed on their central tenets. In other words, whatever term you use to describe the religion of Jefferson and Franklin also desribes the religion of Washington, Adams, and Madison.

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

DAY- I ALSO grew up in pittsburgh and im not sure how you imagine that the homeless shelters there have only "bums" in them. Have you ever heard of Operation Safety Net? its a program that goes out on the streets and finds the homeless sleeping on grates, living under bridges- and gives blankets,clothing, sandwiches hot soup and coffee and has a team of a doctor, a nurse and assistants that offer medical care and follow up information-
the stell mills all closed in the 70s throwing a great portion of the population out of work- and creating a service insudtry population in its place.
im really not sure what comfortable fantasy you are living in, but ive done volunteer work in several homeless shelters there including leaving my comfortable warm home in the winter to seek out those that need help- and these people were not bums- in fact alot of them were women and veterans. it makes me sad when people say such heartless and thoughtless things.

ps im one of those muslims you are putting down and it seems to me that instead of just talking about "christian values" it wouldnt hurt you to pick up the phone and do something yourself your own community instead of criticizing what you clerly dont know about....

Clearly Christianity had an undeniable influence on the formation of the United States and its government. But the nation, as the founders established it, was not an explicitly "Christian Nation." It was, however, inarguably an explicitly "Theistic Nation."

While there was to be no established sect or creed, the government and nation were expected to officially recognize the authority of a Supreme Creator as the source and judge of their laws and actions, and to recognize the necessity of His approbation.

To prove that the government was intended to be Theistic we need look only at the philosophy of the founding documents and then and the national symbols and heraldry created by the founders.

That the justice of the laws and actions of any nation might be judged by the people through comparing them to a Natural Law of Justice and Morality established by the Creator was the undeniable philosophy of the Declaration of Independence--it was by invoking those higher laws and Being that they justified their rebellion against Britain.

While the Constitution itself does not invoke God explicitly, the form of government it establishes was designed to form a "More Perfect Union" and "establish Justice." In other words, it assumes the same philosophy as the Declaration of Independence because the founders believed that the way to gauge whether the union is "more perfect" than the previous union and that the laws are more Just, is by comparing them to the higher standard: the Laws of Nature and Nature's God. The checks and balances of the Constitution are all made in an implicit attempt to create a government that adheres more closely to ideals established by a superior power.

So the founding documents are inherently Theistic, even if they are not explicitly Christian.

The Symbology of the nation makes this marriage of Theism and the U.S. government explicit in a way that is undeniable. In one of its first post-declaration actions on July 4th 1776, the Continental Congress formed a committee to create a Seal for the New Nation.

Supposed "Deist", Benjamin Franklin proposed an image of "Moses standing on the Shore, and extending his Hand over the Sea, thereby causing the same to overwhelm Pharaoh who is sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his Head and a Sword in his Hand. Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Clouds reaching to Moses, to express that he acts by Command of the Deity."

Supposed "Deist" Thomas Jefferson proposed a depiction of the children of Israel guided through the wilderness by a daytime cloud and a nighttime pillar of fire.

Several committees later in 1782 the final seal was adopted which expressed these same Theistic attitudes about the relation between God and Government, even if they did not use Franklin or Jefferson's specific symbols. The official Blazon of the seal explains that: "The pyramid signifies Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of Providence in favour of the American cause." The motto is "Annuit Cœptis" and means literally "he nods in assent to the things that have been started” and is officially interpreted to mean "He (God) has favored our undertakings."

The fact that the pyramid representing our nation is unfinished but is being built in the mirror image of the triangle containing the eye of providence above it expresses the notion that our nation is built in the image of an ideal established by God.
So the official symbols and heraldry of the U.S., as established by the Founders, explicitly invokes God in our political institutions. The seal has appeared on every official action by the government since that time, and everyone has seen in on the one-dollar bill. It proclaims that God should nod in assent to what we undertake as a nation. “In God We Trust” may have been added much later, but it was consistent with the original beliefs of the nation's symbols.

If we consider any of those who signed the Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, attended the Constitutional Convention, signed the Constitution, or served in the First Federal Congress and adopted the Bill of Rights and established the direction of the country, the vast majority were adherents of a Christian sect, predominantly Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Congregationalist.

At very least one must recognize a reflection of the democratic processes at work in Congregationalist parishes in the Democratic forms of the government that was formed.

The negative aspects of historical Christianity clearly also played a role, as the founders sought to avoid the folly of the bloody sectarian violence that had plagued Europe.

Even among the pilgrims, Roger Williams' argument for religious tolerance, upon which he founded Providence RI with separation of Church and State, was based in ideals from Christianity and the teachings of Jesus (as Williams understood them). So Tolerance and Separation of Church and State themselves were originally rooted in Christian thought and teaching.

So we were meant to be a Theistic Nation with Ideals derived from Christianity.

"A nation of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE and for the PEOPLE"

That's why society is where it is.

What about other countries that celebrate Christmas? Does celebrating Christmas mean that as a nation that country is Christian? No, of course not.
How can ANY nation call itself a Christian nation, when Christ himself did not acknowledge any ruler other than God? Wasn't this why the Romans crucified Christ? Because he would not acknowledge the emperor of Rome as God?
Nations are ruled by men. Fallible and imperfect men, with no more of a monopoly on piety than any other men. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, so how can a country be the kingdom of Christ? Its a silly question.

Are some comments being scrubbed from the site? I was trying to go back and re-read some, and can't find them...

"Nor do I think that athiests or the ACLU understand that if we are not a "nation under God" then we are a nation under Satan. The fact is those are the only two options."

That's a false dichotomy. There is another option. A nation of the people, by the people and for the people.

Now where have I heard that before?

I agree with alot of posters that there is not a precise enough definition of what a "Christian Nation" is. Nor do I think that athiests or the ACLU understand that if we are not a "nation under God" then we are a nation under Satan. The fact is those are the only two options. But being a "nation under God" does not make us a nation under Jesus Christ. Alot of you have mentioned the religious beliefs of our forefathers. Obviously there was at least one God-fearing man in the bunch, whether he was Christian or not.

Mary,

I think you have misunderstood the question. At the very least, you don't understand its context. As someone who specializes in researching the "Christian Nation" issue on my blog, I know that when the "political conservatives" to whom Meachem et al. refer, those who state US is a "Christian Nation" practically rest their case on the Founders' personal religious beliefs and their supposed desire to write Biblical principles into our Founding documents -- the US Constitution, the Declaration, etc.

One of the questions to address if delving into history for answers is who exactly does one say "founded" the country? Europeans from the 1600s came to North America for many different reasons and they were markedly different in their views of religion than members of the First Continental Congress or the framers of the Constitution, who were themselves not all in agreement on religion. To an extent, everyone who has ever lived in the country has shaped it.

It might be nice to dispense with the first Thanksgiving mythology that often cripples discussions of this subject. As if a minority of people who got off a single ship in a place they hadn't even planned to land were somehow representative of the thousands and thousands of people who arrived during the 17th and 18th centuries and their descendants. Or that they were somehow best represented everyone who moved to North America or was born here after that.

The answer to the question is actually trivial. The USA is not and never has been a Christian nation. And we can be glad that it isn't.

We are way better of than Muslim nations which make no distinction between church and state. Try Afghanistan under the Taliban or even Saudia Arabia and decide for youself which you would prefer.

Separating church from state is one of the best things the founders of the USA ever did.

Are we a Christian Nation?

No, we are to multi-cultural.

Do the big bullies on the block want to make it so or believe it so?

Absolutely

Obviously they are losing more and more of what they believed they had a monopoly on. As media has progressed and people have become more and more aware of what is going on outside their own backyards they see that they are growing in strength and just maybe able to take on those bullies.

Its human nature for people to want others to agree with what they believe or how they think to validate themselves and when they see that many others disagree it draws in that fear of maybe being wrong that causes them to fight back and try and force others to think,believe and behave as they do and unfortunatly not have to look deeper into their beliefs and possibly find out that they are wrong or they are not strong enough to understand that it is acceptable to be DIFFERENT.

I think the question is too vague. Does it mean the US is a nation in which most of its citizens are Christian and that Christianity is the dominant religion? Or does it mean that the US is an officially Christian nation in which Christianity if the de facto (but not de jure) official religion? There's a big difference between the two, and I think Quinn and Meacham need to specify which they mean. If it's the former, the answer clearly is yes. If it's the later, the answer is an unambiguous no.

This is no mere semantic issue. There's an well-funded movement to rewrite American history to convince the public that we are an officially Christian nation. This is necessary to justify their political agenda. Under this agenda, the gov't would enforce mandatory school prayer (I wonder, Catholic or Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer?) and other public affirmations of their version of Christianity.

Thus, they claim the Founding Fathers went into battle for the 10 Commandments and not freedom from the British Crown. They claim the Founding Fathers wanted to establish a religious gov't, but traitors suborned the Republic in favor of atheism.

This is the real debate: Are we an OFFICIALLY Christian nation, one in which the laws favor Christians and Christianity?

Jon Rowe

IMO the relgious or atheistic preferences of the founders of the US Republic are irrelevant to this discussion.

The question concerns a current religious characteristic of the US, not a historical one.

The US is a Christian nation in one sense only.

I agree with the above--both of them!--in that the question "Is the US a Christian nation?" is poorly defined, both Christian and nation and the idea of a Christian nation-state.

But does nation here mean state? Let's say yes.

1)If so, is the US a Christian nation in the way that Israel is a Jewish state?

The answer to 1 is clearly no.

If not a Christian state in the manner that Israel is a Jewish state...

2) Does the US have an 'official' religion in the manner of Greek Orthodoxy in Greece (most religious Christians in Greece are Greek Orthodox)?

The answer to 2 is clearly no.

If there is no official religion in the manner of Greek Orthodoxy in Greece,

3)is there a historically 'preferred' official religion such as the Anglican (Church of England) religion in England?

The answer to 3 is clearly no.

4)If there is no historically 'preferred' OFFICIAL
religion such as C of E, is there an UNOFFICIAL historically 'preferred' religion, such as Roman Catholicism in Poland?

The answer to 4 is not so clear cut.

In the early days of the Republic some form of Protestant Christianity over Catholicism was clearly preferred. As late as 1960 presidential candidate John Kennedy had to justify his faith to an assemblage of Baptist ministers. However, I would say 45 years later Catholicism is no longer a bar to office,even the highest.

Also, if elected officials should represent their constituency then these officials will be overwhelmingly Christian. Similarly, judges and other officials should mirror their people.

In this sense only is the US a Christian nation. But the preference for Christianity flows from its democracy, not the opposite.

From what I've read in history books, this nation was for all purposes and intent groomed and fashioned as a Christian nation and why take away its name tag from its inception.If any of you grew up in any other nation or society you will understand.This nation is one of the few Christian nations we have lets keep it that way regardless of some of its problems.

I think more than anything America epitomizes mankind as God sees it as far as how human beings use our freedoms. We started this country based on freedoms and rights that were God-given according to our forefathers. What we did with those freedoms range from atrocious to saintly. I thin America with our freedoms has been an example of mankind thought the history of time, most notably Old Testament times. We choose either to follow the laws of God, The Ten Commandments, which we've all heard of, or not. I personally don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence has anything to do with how we judge ourselves as people, not as a nation. I believe we all judge ourselves based on Christian beliefs whether we believe in God or not. But we obviously are not a Christian nation because if we were the question would never have to be asked. And if 100,000 Conservative Christians decided on how we should live as a nation, we would still have 70,000 to 100,000 different opinions on what a Christian is.

I think more than anything America epitomizes mankind as God sees it as far as how human beings use our freedoms. We started this country based on freedoms and rights that were God-given according to our forefathers. What we did with those freedoms range from atrocious to saintly. I thin America with our freedoms has been an example of mankind thought the history of time, most notably Old Testament times. We choose either to follow the laws of God, The Ten Commandments, which we've all heard of, or not. I personally don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence has anything to do with how we judge ourselves as people, not as a nation. I believe we all judge ourselves based on Christian beliefs whether we believe in God or not. But we obviously are not a Christian nation because if we were the question would never have to be asked. And if 100,000 Conservative Christians decided on how we should live as a nation, we would still have 70,000 to 100,000 different opinions on what a Christian is.

I think more than anything America epitomizes mankind as God sees it as far as how human beings use our freedoms. We started this country based on freedoms and rights that were God-given according to our forefathers. What we did with those freedoms range from atrocious to saintly. I thin America with our freedoms has been an example of mankind thought the history of time, most notably Old Testament times. We choose either to follow the laws of God, The Ten Commandments, which we've all heard of, or not. I personally don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence has anything to do with how we judge ourselves as people, not as a nation. I believe we all judge ourselves based on Christian beliefs whether we believe in God or not. But we obviously are not a Christian nation because if we were the question would never have to be asked. And if 100,000 Conservative Christians decided on how we should live as a nation, we would still have 70,000 to 100,000 different opinions on what a Christian is.

Tammy,

Good point. Demographically, America is a "White Nation." But we know that folks who thunder this point mean something quite different b/c our public institutions are supposed to be race neutral. Ditto with religion.

Ed,

The United States was never founded to be a "Christian Nation," and such a position can be argued only from an ignorance of history.

95% of people may have been in some way nomimally connected to a Christian Church, just as I think 80% today are. Yet, like today, a great deal of these so called "Christians" were cafeteria, nominal, or otherwise unchurched folks. I've seen statistics that show that less than 20% of the population during the Founding era belonged to a Church.

As I have noted, the key Founding Fathers -- the ones whose faces appear on our currency -- weren't Christian. And the ideas contained in our Founding documents -- the Constitution, the Declaration and the Federalist Papers are by in large derived from non-Biblical sources. Indeed, a great deal of the population in the Founding era and ministers in Christian Churches stayed loyal to Great Britain precisely because, as the ministers informed, the Bible says in Romans 13 that folks are supposed to obey government leaders, hence revolt forbidden by the Bible. And Paul wasn't admonishing them to obey Godly Judeo-Christian government leaders, but rather told them to obey the psychopathic Pagan Roman leader Nero.

I for one am tired of people using statistics that claim the majority of us are Christians. If 90% or whatever of Americans are Christians, should we really want to call ourselves a Christian Nation?
There's currently a pretty high statistic of obesity in our great nation. I think you can see where I'm going with this...but I'll keep it clean as we're in mixed company.
What I'm saying is people's religious practices, as well as sexual conduct, eating habits, and pretty much anything else they keep out of my kids' sight, and so long as it harms none and doesn't somehow cost the rest of us money, needs to remain off-limits to the government, be it local, state, or federal.

I have read, and lisened to many comments about our country both good and bad. In some ways, we are a Christian society, and in other ways we are not. We have become much to materialisic, worship entertainers, and athletes, who in my opinion, do not deserve such praise, not to mention the obscene salaries they receive when over half of the citizens in this country cannot afford health insurance or a decent place to live. I am not a bleeding heart Liberal, but these are facts, just ask anyone trying to find decent housing. Growing up in Pittsburgh, there were places for people to live, on just about every economic level. My parents both worked, and we were far from wealthy, but we had a roof over our heads and as I recall there were NO working poor families living in shelters, only drunks and bums lived in places like that. I get tired of hearing that old phrase "supply and demand" that is driving housing up. Greed is driving the cost of housing through the roof and we are going to eventually pay a heavy price for this. Many parents are working two jobs in order to afford housing and this leaves children long hours without their parents. We live in a wonderful country, just ask the Immigrants who have come here and are able to practice their chosen religion without being persecuted or murdered!! I don't especially care what religion they are or, what they believe, but my gripe is, why, once they are in this country, do they complain about our religious holidays?? I know many people who are of the Islamic faith, including my son-in-law(he even celebrates Christmas) who do not practice their faith in ways we have seen, i.e. the Imans praying in the airport in front of the other passengers, etc.. and cursing our country. Let them go back to the Middle East where they belong.

I have read, and lisened to many comments about our country both good and bad. In some ways, we are a Christian society, and in other ways we are not. We have become much to materialisic, worship entertainers, and athletes, who in my opinion, do not deserve such praise, not to mention the obscene salaries they receive when over half of the citizens in this country cannot afford health insurance or a decent place to live. I am not a bleeding heart Liberal, but these are facts, just ask anyone trying to find decent housing. Growing up in Pittsburgh, there were places for people to live, on just about every economic level. My parents both worked, and we were far from wealthy, but we had a roof over our heads and as I recall there were NO working poor families living in shelters, only drunks and bums lived in places like that. I get tired of hearing that old phrase "supply and demand" that is driving housing up. Greed is driving the cost of housing through the roof and we are going to eventually pay a heavy price for this. Many parents are working two jobs in order to afford housing and this leaves children long hours without their parents. We live in a wonderful country, just ask the Immigrants who have come here and are able to practice their chosen religion without being persecuted or murdered!! I don't especially care what religion they are or, what they believe, but my gripe is, why, once they are in this country, do they complain about our religious holidays?? I know many people who are of the Islamic faith, including my son-in-law(he even celebrates Christmas) who do not practice their faith in ways we have seen, i.e. the Imans praying in the airport in front of the other passengers, etc.. and cursing our country. Let them go back to the Middle East where they belong.

The United States was founded, whether people want to face it or not, a Christian nation. The oft-cited Establishment Clause said that Congress shall not establish a religion--yet, at the time, many of the states had state religions, all of them Christian. This on top of a population that was originally over 95% Christian, and Congresses which regularly prayed to God before conducting any business. To say that the U.S. was not originally Christian is laughable.
HOWEVER, the U.S. of today is no longer Christian. Any nation that sanctions 4,000 legal murders a day, whose national, state, and local governments support all sorts of sexual activity 180 degrees at odds with Scriptures, that supports 'rights' of children to sue parents, that disallows the word 'God' in schools unless the student or teacher is cursing--one could increase the litany ad infinitum--is no longer Christian, even though it has many Christian citizens.
Our only hope is that God repeats His performance on Sodom and Gamorrah--where He withheld destruction on them until the ratio of the evil people over the good people was astronomically high. Bad as things are institutionally, there are still enough practicing Christians here to keep us out of the 'astronomical' zone--methinks.

REBECCA- You expressed some very open-hearted sentiments and i appreciate your state of intention- but check out this website link by mr. rowe-
our forefounders were an interesting and free thinking lot and ithink you'll be surprised to find out just what myriad and non-christian philosophies they held that shaped their charters of our country-
ive seen some of these ideas befroe but mostly filtered through the christian lens of the authors relating it- for instance- if you choose not to believe the info presented- simply google the and then pull out a dollar bill and contemplate the images on it- no crosses to be seen-peace

"most of the founders believed in Christ."

What do you mean "believed in Christ?" Believed in the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Atonement? Accepted Him as Savior, became "born-again?"

To the contrary, the key Founders -- Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, and some others -- were not "Christians" in the orthodox sense. They didn't believe Jesus was God, hence were theological unitarians, but rather held him to be a great moral teacher. They denied eternal damnation and believed most world religions taught the same truth as Christiantity and were thus valid ways to God. They were also rationalists who elevated man's reason over biblical revelation.

In short, what they believed was so far from "evangelical Christianity" that most fundamentalists if they really understood what the key Founders believed would refuse to consider them "real Christians," but rather heretics or infidels. The latter term "infidel" is how the fundamentalists of the founding era described the beliefs of our key Founders.

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com

Are we a Christian Nation? Were we intended to be?
The Puritans left England and then other areas of Europe so that they could come here to worship as they chose. The Bill of Rights reflects much of the Ten Commandments - but they are basic rules embraced by many nations including those that are not Christian. I think the answer is simple; our founders built this nation of basic principles that they held true, most of which were Christian. So yes, we were founded as a Christian nation.

Now here is the more complicated answer - most of the founders believed in Christ, but wanted to worship as they chose not as the government chose. It does not follow that every American, even then, were Christian and by being allowed to chose how to express their religious beliefs, had the right to use free-will to worship or not as they chose.

By those laws I can say that I am an evangelical Christian and I demand the right to believe and practice my faith however I want. The upshot is in order for me to keep that right; I need to be willing to fight for the right of every Muslim, Wiccan, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, etc. to have the same right, even if I disagree. The laws of freedom of religion only happen if everyone has it and defends it. If Christians have it here than so should every other faith or those with no faith at all, so if practiced as the founders wrote the laws, are we a Christian nation? No - it just so happens that Christianity was their faith and they probably could not have imagined the number of other faiths in the world that would be and should be accommodated by their wish to worship as they chose. We are a religious nation, I hope a faithful nation, but if we follow the letter of the law - we are a free nation that embraces the basic rights of man to worship as they see fit.

FYI separation of church and state was not to keep religion out of the government, but to keep the government out of religion so that no one would be forced to worship as the law said - (doesn't sound like a group that planned on forcing Christianity down anyone’s throat, despite how others since have behaved)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now where in that amendment do you see Christianity mentioned? If the founding fathers believed the US to be a "Christian" nation, they would have clearly stated it. FYI-identifying God on currency doesn't equal affirmation of a Christian nation either. If instead the slogan read "In Jesus We Trust" then I'd buy it.

America and its soul has no place for genuine religion, walk down its history. America behaves like a selfish self centered nation, it was founded by killing the native americans, next built on the evil of slavery, and today on the sale of weapons and nuclear technology and supremacy, also major contributor of global warming. This is neither religious behaviour, nor secular. America religion is greed, averise, debt and excess. Unfortunetely this evil philosophy has been exported around the world.
The main activity on the birthday of great teacher and soul Jesus, is shopping, debt and vulgur displays of wealth.

Is the US a Christian nation? (The whole question rings false somehow).

But:
No, as currently (and historically) configured it cannot be. The majority of its citizens can be—and are—Christian but the machinery of the state does not have a religion.

Christianity—as it developed in Western Europe—sits uneasily with the institution of the nation-state. A nation-state will, more often that not, demand a national church, and, as power became more centralized in the person of the monarch, the secular authority has prevailed. After all, how many divisions has the Pope? (Look up who said that!)

Read up on Henry VIII:in addition to his proclivity for decapitating defenceless women, he exemplifies the struggle between what was a worldwide—well, Europe-wide anyway--church and the local, burgeoning nation state of England. Henry grabbed the Church’s power (and property—it was always a property deal) for himself, declared the institution of the monarchy as anointed by God and proclaimed himself head of both the Church and the State.

Thus the notion of Christendom (i.e. a ‘kingdom’ of Christianity) was a medieval notion. The medieval Church was what sociologists call a horizontal institution: it transcended boundaries. Note I didn’t say NATIONAL boundaries because there were no nation-states. As nation-states—vertical institutions—emerge in Europe they bump up against the Church, and religion becomes localized, well, nationalized really.

As I wrote earlier, one should separate the state from its citizens. The majority of American citizens are Christian. However, the machinery of government –which comprises the American state—has no religion. The country has no official, established, national Christian Church. The two are separate. Yet politicians should reflect—represent!-- their electorate and these citizens are Christian!

But the state is not and has no 'official' religion.

America is a kind of Christian nation by that I mean it has taken Christianity and molded it into a hybrid to match it's most famous dictum that " The business of America is business".
Christmas is a commercial holiday with it's outward emblems more a reminder to spend your money than to honor the birth of Christ.
So maybe the best test of our Chritian dominance is not our church going or allegiance to some social rhetoric that is more politically inspired then religiously inspired but in our behavior, in our day to day acts of kindness. These are the true Christian values that no politician or talking head represents no matter how much they label themselves Christians.
So in answer to your question the jury is still out but don't believe for a instance that secularism is the problem, the question as to wheter we remain a Christian nation is if politics and politicians will finish the job of destroying real chritianity in favor of their own slick power hungry scams or religious leaders with convictions will stand up to these phonies.

NO, WE SHOULD NOT BECOME AND WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY. WE ARE CATHOLIC, JEWISH, MORMON, MUSLIM, HINDU,ORTHODOX, PROTESTANT, BAPTIST AND SO ON. THIS IS WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS BASED ON.

Yepp, but Father Christmas isnt!

All the healthy debate going on here gives me hope. It seems that all you Americans will never be able to agree on anything. So it seems unlikely that any religious group will be in a position to take control of the USA (for long).

The question implicitly conflates three different concepts - nation, state, & country - conflating culture, polity, & geography - - -

Is the USA a Christian nation? No! It is a culturally pluralistic nation.

Is the USA a Christian state? No! It is a politically secular state per its constitution.

Is the USA a Christian country? No! It is constituted by three different land-marine masses in the northern hemisphere.

A better question - Is the USA a Christian republic?

No!

But asking that question would cause the USA Christian evangeloid ana-ideo-logues of the Islamic form/s of republicanisn to sally forth with their "It should be!"

That would be a more interesting colloquy to follow in this forum.

in name only we are a christian nation.i don`t believe is the word of god.the book is is just a mess,however there are some good rules to live by.jesus was the son of god as is everyone else,he taught morals,ethics and the belief in 1 god.to say he died for our sins is a misnomer since this would compromise the belief that god forgives,god allows us to make our own mistakes abnd the figure out how to correct them,sorry.peace,bj,6625490779

Oh and PS

I went to religious schools. When prayer time came. 90 percent of us, 90 percent of the time, replaced the time with thinking about recess, lunch, football, basketball, about the test in the next class, what we were gonna do after school let out. I could go on but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Joe

Taking prayer out of school has absolutely no correlation with violence. For all the christians in the world can pray morning, noon and night for that matter, anywhere/everywhere and get the same result.

When did a school get top billing over a church? (for christians/religion)

Christian families should be responsible for the prayer rituals of their children. Why pass that on to the schoolboard? Perhaps its easier to blame the school for all the woes in the world? How utterly ludicrous.

Just curious. Do you really think or believe that in a court of law, swearing on the bible is going to make some one more honest than not?

I am an atheist and swearing on that book means nothing to me. What makes me honest is morals and
integrity. Something you do not need religion for.

If you want your religion for fellowship, that is your right and priveledge. If you want your religion to rule the nation your absolutely wrong!

We are a Christian nation in name only. To my meager understanding, Christians are suppose to be their brother's keeper, to care about the less fortunate, and are nonjudgmental of their fellow man. America's Christian are the same people who vote to cut spending on social programs to help the poor, won't pass a universal health care, who started an unnecessary war which has caused the death of thousands of innocent people, who revel in Goldman Sach's obscene year end bonuses, who mismanaged Katrina, who don't care that millions of jobs are going overseas only to be replaced with low paying jobs,and who care more about funding a war than funding education. By the way I am african american agnostic.

Hey, Joe, I'm just curious, but have you ever worked in a school?
I've seen lots of kids who have a bit more on their plate than whether or not they pray first thing in the morning.
Besides, the Constitution is the law of the land; this has nothing to do with what the majority wishes to be true.

Ahhh It would depend on your definition of "Christian" doesn't it? By the definition set forth by the Apostle's Creed which asserts the Trinity, the divinity of Christ and the core beliefs of every "Christian", I would have to say - No!! Absolutely not! And not very likely to be in any foreseeable future.

Joe, what about the millions of us that are not christians? Are we to do it "YOUR" way? Freedom to believe what I want. Is that what this nation is all about.

Please, where is it written that you have the "only" way. Do you honestly think that I as a non believer don't have the same rights as you do.

I welcome your thoughts. Thanks

The architect, L"Enfant designed the layout of the city of Washington DC and incorportated Christian themes into his design.

The US Capital, Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial and the White house all form a cross when viewed from overhead.

L'Enfant did this to ensure that the world remembered that America is a Christian Nation.

If this is a "Christian Nation" we should get a grade of F. I've read the above comments and am very discouraged by the truth I see there. I think Christianity has become mostly irrelevant for the same reason George W. Bush is becoming irrelevant. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of most practioners of the Christian faith speak volumes. This nation was founded on the idea of religious freedom. One is free to practice the religion of one's choice - or none at all. I was raised to respect other's religious choices. But what do I do about those religions that would cut my head off in the name of God if they had the chance?

Yes America is a Christian Nation.If it were not for the media and the ACLU trying to put a negative spin on anything positive we would be better off.Look at the decline in schools there is a direct correlation in the violence and prayer being taken out of school.If only the leftist would realize that if we lived by the Ten Commandments a lot of our problems would not be as drastic yet they fight to not even have them in a courtroom.Why is we are worried about the rights of one that is offended instead of the hundreds or thousands that want it.Should not the majority rule.

I am a French People,
Sorry if my English is so bad...
I think that is it, yes, you are a Christian nation, and it is well, very well.
My admiration for American people is for tree reason:

This people is Christian and love God,
The American people is a patriot people, he love his fatherland.
This people is a courageous worker

You have so other reason for my admiration of the United state Nation. But if you lose the premiere reason of my love for you: your solid Christianity, you lost also my admiration for you.

God Bless America, Your US' Armed Forces and the American president, George W. Bush
Anne-Henri de Rodellec du Porzic

I am a French People,
Sorry if my English is so bad...
I think that is it, yes, you are a Christian nation, and it is well, very well.
My admiration for American people is for tree reason:

This people is Christian and love God,
The American people is a patriot people, he love his fatherland.
This people is a courageous worker

You have so other reason for my admiration of the United state Nation. But if you lose the premiere reason of my love for you: your solid Christianity, you lost also my admiration for you.

God Bless America, Your US' Armed Forces and the American president, George W. Bush

A.-H. de Rodellec du Porzic ahdr@waoline.com

No. It is not now and never has been a Christian nation. The word Christian is not an adjective.

One of the temptations rejected by Jesus involved instant and omnipotent secular power. Even if we claim to be a Christian nation, Jesus wouldn't want us as a nation.

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:8-9).

Further, we are, by simple observation, a polyglot nation. It is a fact I love about America. The Tibetan Buddhists, the Jewish communities, the Muslims, the Unitarian-Universalists, the First Nation tribes and their various faiths focused on mother earth, the Shinto shrines in Japantowns, and the Taoist temples in Chinatowns, each one brings a new and cherished (by me, anyway) view of the elephant.

Hallejulah.

Why is it that after 9/11 this country came together like nothing I have ever experienced in my life time? 9/11 happened to be my first experience with fear for this country. I certainly don't remember asking what a person's beliefs were when I looked for support or help with that fear. Neither did I care what they believed in other than what horrific thing has just happened to all of us and if they felt the same way.

I don't remember anyone asking me what religion I was? Everyone came together for one cause. We all helped each other regardless of our belief systems.

Why does it take something as horrible as that to bring out the supposedly "Christian Behavior" in people Christian or Non Christian? I am a non believer and I live my life using those so called christian behaviors on a daily basis.

If this is a Christian Nation you sure could fool me.

Labeling a country like ours as "Christian" seems too simplistic. We are a melting pot of all forms of religion.

Torrey!
Check in briefly for an important email address!

To ask whether there can be a "Christian nation" makes no more sense than asking whether there can be a "Christian chair." Like a chair, we can build a nation to have a certain image and perform certain functions, but also like a chair, a "nation" cannot hold a particular belief. Politicians like to tell us what our nation believes, but all they can really point to is what a number of people in the nation may believe. If we became a theocracy, we would not become a Christian nation; we would simply become a nation ruled by people holding a particular theological view. For the last couple of years, the Republicans have ruled the United States of America, but we still manage to distinguish the views of the rulers from those of the citizens, and never call it "a Republican Party nation."

The US is a nation with a majority of citizens who are Christians.

However, it does not have--and has never had--a national church. This is in contrast to Britain, who has an established (Christian) Church--the Church of England, countries such as Greece and Russia, where the national church is the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches respectively &tc. This is what America's founders meant by a separation of church and state--no national church.

Last survey I saw (about 2 yrs. ago) said that for the 1st time in US History, fewer than 50% of Americans identified themselves as Christians and that that downward trend was expected to continue for decades to come.

I think that answers the question and, at the same time, explains the "fear" amongst those in the minority (particularly, if you watch televangelists now predicting "only a few more years" to repent).

Since Christianity is historically a fraud, totally, a Christian nation would be a nation of fools and knaves. Yes America is a Christian nation.

I used to be a Mormom -- now I'm an atheist. The Mormons have a prophecy that goes like this: "The day will come when the constitution of the United States will hang by a thread, and it will be saved by Elders of the Mormom Church who will establish a theocracy." Someone told me that the fundamentalists think they'll get there first. Oh boy.

Noah:

It's argument...no 'e'.

Best,
Mary C.

I am a Christian. I attend church three times a week, which has nothing at all to do with my politics...and it should not.
I believe good, moral men would be good leaders in government. They could be Christian or athiest. Christians do not have a monopoly on morality, even though all Christians should try to live lives above reproach. I believe fervently in separation of Church and State. I believe Christianity is a purely personal thing, and cannot be forced on anyone. It is wrong to make laws governing the private lives of our citizens, and it is wrong to make laws forcing morality on our citizens. God gave man free-will to accept or refute His teachings, and it is not for man to judge. God will take care of it.

Karen has outlined the answer to the question you should have asked. "Nation" in this context is a fuzzy word.

I would in any case quarrel with an affirmative answer. The best one can say is that we are a mostly Christian Nation, a partly Jewish Nation, a partly Muslim Nation, a partly Deist Nation, etc.,etc.

Its The Most Wonderful Time of The Year!!
Like the Song Says...
Christmas Decorations Everywere Yes We are
Definetely a Christian Nation.
But We Have to Remember We have a Lot of Jewish People
in North America as Well. When I Came to This
Country Back in My Teen Years I Realize There is 10000 Religion and Beliefs and Many More Stuff
Positive and Negatives I Love This Country
Anyways By The Way i am a Catholic Women
From South America.
Bye Bye and God Bless

People,

Learn how to spell and write correctly.

It goes a long way in life and in arguement.

N. Webster

Victoria:

Many thanks!

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com

The authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights took great pains to make it clear that ours was a secular government; one that was not to side with or favor any particular religion --thereby ensuring the religous freedom of all. Although the majority of the founders were deists or Christians they created a Constitution that made their religion irrelevant--as if they could anticipate that there would come a time when many different religious faiths would be represented in this country--as is currently the case. So no this was never a "Christian" country nor was it meant to be a "Christian" country--and that is a good thing. The Constitution and Bill of Rights allows this country to be a united one. My household is now comprised of family members that identify, in terms of religion, as Jewish, Catholic, Muslim and agnostic. But in terms of our national identification, it would never occur to us that we were all anything but Americans.

JONROWE WOW AND WOW

your site is about the most intelligent thing ive seen on this website i can see your brain working and you back up every statement, there seems to be no bias or stretches in your thinking- only logic

i hope others take the time you read your site

ive always maintained our forefathers were rebels

"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”

Patrick Henry never said this. My website records what the Founders actually did and did not say and believe about religion and government. If anyone needs to verify, check it out or email me.

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com

to lay claim america is a Christian nation is not only absurd but shows a profound ignorance to Christianity.
Hebrews 11, KJV Bible, is quite clear, those who profess faith in Christ speak plainly they are pilgrims and strangers on earth who seek a heavenly kingdom. No true Christian would ever dare advocate america is a christian nation. for there is but one christian nation and it isn't of earth.
when it comes to the pseudo christian's of america I think the apostle Paul said it best; " with great swelling words of vanity they deceive the hearts of the simple."

if we truly feed the hungry, help the oppressed, comfort the suffering, tend the sick, welcome the outcast, love our neighbors as ourselves, and forgive our enemies then what does it matter whether someone labels us christians or fools? We will be doing what makes us best.

When Americans look out into other nations and they see what is happening in Darfur and the other equally hideous situations in Africa; when they see the middle ages barbarianism that defines the the middle East; when they see the revival of a dictatorship in Russia and the malaise of the Europeans; when they see the thug leader of Venezuela come to our country to call our president the devil in addition to the complete blindness of the United Nations to every kind of corruption imaginable is it really such a horrible thing to think of America as a Christian nation?

Christian Nation?

Lets check the bible for that:

Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ISAIAH 45:7

"Do not withold discipline from a chlid. if you BEAT him with a ROD, he will not die.  THou shalt BEAT him with a ROD and deliver his soul from Hell"
Proverbs 23:13,14

Do not spare them but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:34

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

According to just a little sample from the Bible, it does seem like that.

However the wonderful thing in life is that Goodness needs no religion. It is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions, sans hatered or bias.

Christian Nation?

Lets check the bible for that:

Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ISAIAH 45:7

"Do not withold discipline from a chlid. if you BEAT him with a ROD, he will not die.  THou shalt BEAT him with a ROD and deliver his soul from Hell"
Proverbs 23:13,14

Do not spare them but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:34

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

According to just a little sample from the Bible, it does seem like that.

However the wonderful thing in life is that Goodness needs no religion. It is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions, sans hatered or bias.

Jerry Crew,

You noted: "I rest my eternal destiny on the statement made by Jesus in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me" (RSV). Note that it is one individual at a time coming to the Father not nation. Nations have nothing to do with Christianity."

The latter might be true but according to Professor Crossan, Jesus did not say "I am the way............". John 14:6 was a later addition by John or by some well meaning translator/scribe. 210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12; http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf From Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus, The Life of Mediterranean Jewish Peasant.

This country is made up of immigrants from all parts of the world, all races, religions and creeds. This is what makes this country unique. We are guaranteed certain rights: freedom of religion, freedom of the press (although this country has more silly censorship than other more sophisticated countries) etc...separation of church and state. Any U.S. citizen should have the freedom to worship his religion as he wants without the government imposing religion on any of us..including those that don't want any religion in their life. If the day ever comes when this country is ramming one particular religion down the throats of its citizens we will be no better off than the strict Muslim countries which impose these restrictions on their citizens, including severe punishment for not wearing traditional religious clothing and all the other dictates of fanatical religious groups.
Religion should not be mandatory or dictated by anyone...it should be individual choice. Not everyone needs or wants religion in their life and should be free to make choices based on individual preferences rather than government policy.

I think they would like to think it is. Just like all the other *truths* they believe.

Personally, as I see it. Christmas is a big money maker. So its really the retailers love of money that has made this season *appear* that America is a Christian Nation.

When in reality its a *Money Nation* with very little ethics and conscience on how to get it and make it.

I believe in essence Christ brought America into existence. The impact of Christ's example was a realization of our capacity to love. The American difference was a foundation formed by men who were free from the oppressive leadership mentality of the era. Who respected personal worth; personal relationship to God; and a God given natural social conscience.
Where religions brought God into man's world; America was leading man to God's world. A place described in words as equality, truth, freedom, peace, compassion, personal talent fulfillment, everlasting life and justice.
Where a Golden Rule of all religions was the navigator; nothing lighted our path brighter than the Christmas Eve candles!

Dear Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham,

Ha ha. Maybe America should be a Ghost Nation as well, as many of the less educated people believe in ghosts as well..

Today, most religion has been treated as fairy tales, and wishful thinking by 80% of the highly educated people (eg. Professors) around the world. Whereas 80% of those who really believe in the fairy tales are those who have lower education level.

As there is a very high close relationship between intelligence and believe in Christ, Ghosts, UFOs or Zombies, we can safely conclude that when most Americans think of herself as a Christian Nation, then America itself will be a Moron Nation.

Thanks for the C. S. Lewis quote. He was a very keen observer of human nature. His book "The Great Divorce" is a classic examination of how our weaknesses keep us from God. His comment on theocracy is spot on.

Let's just quote C.S. Lewis, who certainly knew what he was talking about:

"Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations...

The nearer any government approaches to Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic, held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them, like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the very ordinary human passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt. A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right."

All religions derive from Sun Worship, as they justly should, inasmuch as our parent star is the life-giver. But humans have this amazing propensity for complicating things, putting 'matter' over here, 'spirit' over there. Actually it's all one Unified Field. If you want to call the Sun "Jesus," that's fine, but just leave room for others to see in Her another name. Also, religions, like peaches, do not travel well, especially when the clan goes over to the next valley and insists that everyone there worship their particular way. Like, 'American democracy for the Middle East.'
Oh Great Isis, give me a break!
(Welcome back the Light on December 22!)

"Do unto others as you would be done to" The statement varies and the civilization of China claims to have placed the "Golden Rule" in writing first.
The United States is successful by survival. The cave man that didn't follow the golden rule was hit in the head by a club and thrown out of the cave. We have a United States by exercising force. We used force to establish. Our forefathers were varied as slave owners, Deist
and men that wanted no Theocracy in Government. They were successful. We are today the strongest Nation on Earth--not because of Religion but because we respect all cultures and thus survive.
Wayne

I don't know what "world" those calling this a "Christian" nation are living in. If you are using the term to describe the dominant religion, I would have to disagree. Just in the very small office where I work, we have no less than four Muslims, and an atheist, leaving only two potential Christians - who by the way, never mention their religion.

If by chance, you are using the term "christian" as a generic adjective meaning TOLERANT, respectful, generous, HUMBLE and kind (and not referring to faith issues at all) then this nation has a long way to go before it is "christian" enough.

America is a Nation with a Christian heritage, and that heritage is what has made this country a great country and a good country. Sadly, America is becoming a Pagan Nation, a nation that values abortion & homosexuality more than religious liberty, and this will cause this nation to fall.

I find this question delightfully simple. I am American and I am not Christian. If America were a Christian nation this would not be allowed.

Feel free to complicate the matter all you like. But nothing anyone says is going to change either of these facts.

I rest my eternal destiny on the statement made by Jesus in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me" (RSV). Note that it is one individual at a time coming to the Father not nation. Nations have nothing to do with Christianity.

Is the US a Christian nation? The founding fathers were very clear on what they thought of identifying a particular faith with national life. That is why the Constitution specifies that there "shall be no religious test" for those seeking public office and why freedom of religion is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Does our country operate in a Christian manner in keeping with the Beatitudes and with the "Great Commandment" of loving God and neighbor? Sadly not. It appears that those of us who profess to follow Jesus are not spreading his message of peace and compassion and we cannot blame those outside of our faith for that. The secular world has co-opted Christmas for its own purposes, chiefly the bottom line. But the secular world has no responsibility for celebrating Christmas - Christians do. If the real meaning of Christmas is not seen by the larger society it is because as Christians, we do not live it for all to see. Peace to all, however you celebrate this time of year!

Raised a catholic, but fallen away, and now an atheist. Still, the original teachings of Jesus are worthwhile as precepts to live by, if not misinterpreted by those who have their own agendas and motives. My own values, however, are based on those of Kant--act as though your actions were universal, ei., do not do anything that you would not want anyone else to do under the same circumstances. For example, if I were to go into a public park and crave a bouquet of the flowers planted there, I could not in conscience pick them and take them home, for if everyone were to do this, there would be no flowers in the public park. One's every action should be based on this principle.
We can extrapolate this into our daily lives, both personal and political. If the United States craves hegemony in the Middle East, for whatever reasons--control of the oil supply, safety for Israel,(up for lots of questions), and the false, in my opinion, desire for "democracy" across the world,-- then we must take into consideration that there are those for whom these goals may or may not coincide, but whose approach may differ.
Back to Kant, if every nation that desired the outcome that we wish for were to put that question into action, then what should we expect? Insurrection? I fervently hope not.
Obviosly, I have backed myself into a corner, here. It seems that my high-minded approach works well on a day to day basis, but seems feeble on the international scene. Would like some feedback.

AN AMAZING SPREAD OF INTELECT IN RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION. ALL YOUR OPINIONS ARE MOST SICKING TO ME. FORTUNATLY GOD IS NOT CONCERNED WITH YOUR OPINIONS ...AND YES VIRGINIA , WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION !

Absolutely not! This country was founded in part to have the right to worship the religion of your choice. Anytime you have the name of a religion, followed by the word nation, you are asking for trouble. So if America claims to be a Christian nation, then that would make our struggles in the middle east a religious war. Is that how far the teachings of Christ have been degraded and mis-used? The very question itself is worriesome.

The ideal principles this country were founded upon were Christian; however, so many people polluted those principles with hypocrisy. The near extermination of the American Indian, racism towards many other groups (including African Americans), greed, murders due to a flawed justice system (death penalty for those who were thought guilty, but weren't), and unnecessary wars. If we actually followed the teaching of Jesus, then this country would transform into a true beacon how we are supposed to be to one another.
For those who like to over critize Christians themselves...yes, we have had members who say that they are Christian, but who go against the Christian teachings. I will say, however, that in the Bible Jesus already stated that since he was hated by others, even to be crucified for basically doing nothing but sharing the words of God/his Father and helping others, then Christians (his followers) would certainly be hated and persecuted by others. I,as a Christian, expect the kind of vicious criticism and sarcastic, trying to reason everything out, type of speech found in this country today.

ITS VERY CLEARLY ... IT SHOULD BE SECULAR IN ANY REGARDS. ALL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING U.S.A., SHOULD BE ABSOLUTE SECULAR IF THE DEAR LORD HAS GIVEN ON THIS EARTH. BEING A CHRISTIAN, BEING A JEWISH, BEING A MORMON, BEING A MUSLIM, ETC IS ALWAYS ALWAYS A PERSON INTO BECOMING A PERSON. A COUNTRY MUST GIVE NEUTRALITY FOR EVERYONE, IN ORDER TO LIVE.

ITS SAD TO KNOW THAT U.S.A. HAS SOME KIND OF EGOISM INTO SAYING THAT ITS CHRISTIAN COUNTRY. THE DEAR LORD NEVER INTEND THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, THE DOLLAR BILL HAS SAID "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" ... IT SHOULD NOT BE SHOWN AT ALL REGARDLESS. ITS BAD. THE REASON IT HAS BROUGHT UP BECAUSE OF THE OLD COMMUNITISM (SPREAD BY SOVIET UNION AND ALLIES) ... THATS WHY. IT SHOULD NOW BE TAKEN OFF.

U.S.A. SUPPOSE TO HAVE THE FREEDOM FOR EVERYONE TO DO ANYTHING SAFELY, INCLUDING WHAT RELIGION HE/SHE CAN BECOME.

FREEDOM ALWAYS PREVAIL FOREVER !!!!!!!

If you consider rampant materialism and consumerism christian, then of course. If you count the growing gap between the rich and poor, violence and sex on tv, a war with no end, and a president who claims to be christian, yet acts the opposite of that, then yes we could be considered a christian nation. These are all christian ideals, right? The so-called christian leaders and "moral majority" only make the hypocrisy louder and more annoying. How can we take the religion seriously, when these are the losers that are in charge? I'm tired of all this hypocrisy.

Interesting question...the majority of Americans profess to be "Christians", but even amoungst Christians there are vast differences. Baptists differ from Mormans who differ from Catholics, who differ from Lutherans, Evangelicals from Jehovah Witnesses et. al. My point is that, if "Christians" have significant differences between their own sects, what meaning does being a "Christian Country" really have? It all depends on who is defining Chritianity.
I find all relgions seperate people into 'believers" and "non-believers", which just adds to the divisions within our Country and society.

I am an apprentice of the Lord Jesus, a follower of Christ, a redeemed person who believes the exclusivity of the gospel message. All that to avoid saying I am a "Christian" because the word means nothing to most people. Since the word alone means little, "Christian nation" is also not definitive. At any rate, as one who most would label "evangelical," I do not believe this nation, or any other, is "christian," nor should (much less "can") it be.
Being born American does not make one Christian in any sense; and the reverse is equally true.
Do I love my country? Yup. But, biblically, I am not to be "of this world" and my citizenry is in heaven, in Christ, in glory. I'm just passin' through.

> non-denominational, evangelical house church
> movement around the world today with small groups

I think that's a very interesting observation. Who knows, perhaps in 50 years the church as we've known it might give way to the practices of the early Christians.

If, in addition, more Muslims individually practiced ijtahid, considering Islam in the light of the modern world, we'd be much better off.

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." - Buddha

"Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve which flows on, pointless." - D. H. Lawrence

"And the end of all our exploring,
Will be to arrive where we started,
And know the place for the first time."
- T. S. Elliot

"Ten thousand flowers in spring
the moon in autumn,
a cool breeze in summer,
snow in winter.
If your mind isn’t clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life."
- Wun-Men

What part of Christian belief that we are supposedly rooted in is "separation of powers", "separation of church and state", "innocent until proven guilty", "equal representation before the law", and "due process"? We are "rooted" as much in 1000 years of Angle-Saxon jurisprudence, which we adopted for our legal system, which the explicit rejection of the parts where religion had a place in the law - yet none of the Christians who want us to pretend that everything in our history comes from Christianity will ever bother to acknowledge it. They would prefer that we look to a 3000 year old Middle Eastern theocratic monarchy that practiced slavery and exhibited absolutely NO democratic tradition as the source of this country, and pretend that the thousands of years and the places where our country actually got it's roots just never happened.

I totally resent people who spend hours each week and month and year studying an ancient civilization, yet who know nothing of the actual history and legal and political tradition of where this country actually came from, lecturing the rest of us of what this country is really about.

It is rooted in Christian belief, just like Europe. Of course people of all faiths should be free and able to practice their belief, but we should also recognize history, and not try to deform it.

The comment at the beginning of this string is in error by accepting those engaged in "fundamentalism" labeling themselves as "conservative." In reality they are not at all conservative but radical reactionaries in the true meaning of the term.
Those going back into history in an attempt to lend credence to their claim do so at their peril. They "pick and choose" from history only what will rationalize their position. Unfortunately, such is not what what history is about.
Perhaps, prior to discussion of religion and making such a false claim, they should study history as it really is, not as how they wish it to be.

Are we a Christian Nation? Some questions must be asked first.

Was this nation founded by Christians? Yes. But considering the circumstances and reasons why they came here must be entered into the equation to get a more accurate, over all picture.

Have we acted like a Christian nation? Yes, we have been true to the actions of the previous 1,400 years of Christianity. Any one doubting this only has to look at the history of Christianity and how they treated non Christians such as Jews,other Christians, indigenous peoples in Africa, Europe, the Carribean, North, Central and South America.

Once entrenched on this continent, they usurped the land from the native population, kidnapped, bought, sold and kept Africans in bondage.

While declaring in writing for the first time in history that all men are created equal, they then moved the native population further away, eventually attempting to eradicate them completely. Christians then denied, into the twentieth century, basic rights to half their own population and that of the black population.

The people who claim that this is a Christian nation has shown nothing but arrogance, contempt and hypocrisy to gays, woman and basically anyone who did not agree with their own narrow interpretation of the bible.

In those respects, we are certainly a Christian nation. I only hope that we can change this deplorable situation before they take complete political control as they have done before. We don't need the unbelievable amount of human suffering again.

CNN reported that 90% of our nation purports to be Christian...I think only 10% of our nation lives a Christian way of life.

What absolute nonsense. "Is America a Christian Nation?" What are the alternatives? Is America an anamist nation? A Taoist nation? I say again - reading peoples' postings about religion and it's supposed place in national life is like listening to flat-earthers argue about how far it is to the edge. You are splitting hairs on a bald man's head.

The phrase "Christian Nation" is self-contradictory.

It's an unAmerican attempt by NeoChristian insurgents to impose their apocalyptic faith on our Democratic Republic. We have a right and a duty to stop them from doing so.

I really like what Martin Marty had to say. So much so that I'd like to take a class from him. He has retired, so I will seek a class that taught his values.--

"Christian" would mean "named after Christ (Jesus)" who emphatically said his kingdom was not of this world, so a "Christian nation" would be against his wishes as described in the gospels.

(the above quote was a cut and paste job from his comment)

Thank you. This is my first comment on the Newsweek site.

Thomas Jefferson was a unitarian - he saw the Unitarian Church as the future of religion in the United States. To be sure, the unitarian church has evolved since Jefferson's time, but the point is that we talk about the founding fathers as though their ideas of Christianity were the same as ours. What does it mean to be "Christian" in the twenty-first century? It depends on who you ask - its the same for the past. I think we should be clear about what we mean when we used words like "Christian". Even though it seems like we are being specific, it is very much an open-ended word.

The early settlers' concept of freedom and the resulting insistence and guarantee of freedom in America comes directly from their Protestant, free-will choice reading of the Bible and resulting persecution from the tyrannical Catholic Church. From the earliest development of hospitals, schools, The Red Cross and Social Security, whether begun in the U.S. or elsewhere, most all such concepts and developments come from Christians living out the purpose, meaning and direction they found for their lives after personally accepting by faith the Way, the Truth and the Life, Jesus Christ. Being created by God in his own image required the free-will choice to truly love Him and one another as we love ourselves or do the normal, unredeemed human thing, which is, just live for self at everyone else's expense. Our freedom also results in all kinds of Christians at different levels of understanding and maturity that confuses any discussion such as this, especially for non-Christians. Most people are not even aware of the non-denominational, evangelical house church movement around the world today with small groups having and being "church" without "seminary-trained" clergy/leadership, including in the U.S.

> 22. Christians should replace tolerance and intolerance in their vocabulary with loving and
> unloving in order to clarify debate on such issues.

Jesus said that Christians should love all as themselves. So 'unloving' is by definition unChristian.

To me, the Great Seal symbolizes very well what we're all about. Or more properly, what the promise of this country is. E Pluribus Unim does not mean that everyone will belong to a specific sect or religion. But that as tributaries join the river, all religions (and secular humanists) have and God willing will continue contribute their common ideals to the development of this country.

The great struggle of this age is between those who would look to rigid, old obsolete structures, whether Islamic Taliban, "Taliban Christians" or anti-religion bigots on one side. On the other side are those who want to take the best from the past and work with each other on building something new - the next phase of "Novus Ordo Seclorum".

sorry...typo...I meant 'childish', not 'childless'

WOW!
There are so many interesting comments on this board. This is a complex issue. I think this country has always had prominent Christian leaders whose faith and morals helped bring blessings to this nation. At the same time, there is really no such thing as a Christian nation; there are only Christian people.

This message is probably more for my fellow Christians...I think some 'religious right' people forget why they have the morals that the have. Those morals come out of a relationship they have with God. Once people get to know Jesus, I believe they will want to please him. So, for Christians to demand that the world around them practice their morality without first knowing Him shows that some of us have it backwards. People first have to come to know Him, and then, like us, they will want to please Him.

So, the role of Christians toward non-Christians is to love them as Jesus loves them. Even non-believers on this board, regardless of the exact question of the week, are criticizing Christians for abandoning Christ's message of unconditional love. They get what we Christians often forget.

If we Christians were to truly show the world His love and His peace, His joy and His goodness, many would see what we have and want it. Then, they would learn in time what behaviors God prefers and desires, and we would see many people change from the inside out, not because we pushed our values on them, but because the had experienced His love and forgiveness firsthand.

Even those atheists on this board who love to bluntly deride faith as useless and childless and mindless would not mind having a Christian show them self-sacrificing love and kindness. Isn't it time that we Christians refocused our energy on spreading the Gospel by LIVING it, through loving everyone we meet? That is my prayer today.

A Christian Nation with Christian values? Are the Billions spent on pornography, gambling and strip clubs indicative of a Christian Nation? Does the highest incarceration rate and the highest murder rate in the western world demonstrate Christian values? Does the apparent approval of torture sound Christian? I do not recall Jesus saying "Torture your enemies." Do the dirty tricks of political campaigns and the purchase of vote by lobbyists bespeak the virtues of Christianity? I don't thinks so.
Dave.

A Christian Nation with Christian values? Are the Billions spent on pornography, gambling and strip clubs indicative of a Christian Nation? Does the highest incarceration rate and the highest murder rate in the western world demonstrate Christian values? Does the apparent approval of torture sound Christian? I do not recall Jesus saying "Torture your enemies." Do the dirty tricks of political campaigns and the purchase of vote by lobbyists bespeak the virtues of Christianity? I don't thinks so.
Save.

No this is not a Christian nation.

Democracy guide this country, and the mayority rule. It's a Christian Nation.

America a Christian nation? Are you kidding? Why - because of the religious right? Those arrogant, narrow-minded fools who think Christianity reolves around abortion and gay-marriage. If only life is so simple! How can a Christian support the death penalty. One of the commandments says "Thou shalt not kill." Period. There is no extra clause that says except in the United States under the laws of capital punishment.

These Christians who abhor abortion and gays - it is amazing how little they care about the poor and the helpless. What are they doing to eliminate hunger and other social ills? They will not tackle these issues because they are complex issues that involve sacrifice and shows that the world is not black and white - there is a lot of gray.

This is a nation where millions of children go hungry, where millions cannot afford health care - and there are not "liberal" issues, they are Christian issues.

Because so many millions go to church does not make this a Christian nation - on the contrary, that fact makes this a very hypocritical nation. We are like a nation full of Pharisees and other hypocrites of Christ's time who knew the rituals of religion but showed none of the compassionate spirit of religion.

America a Christian nation? Are you kidding??!!

Christians areant perfect. If you go to Church and meet christians , you'll find quite
a bit of imperfection. Christians are work in progress, a "christian nation" is also a work in progress, sooo can we all stop the "you did this so how can you be that", very judgemental. we've all done things un-wife like, un-son-like un whatever, but it doesnt mean we give up that identity.

“Out of love and concern for the truth, and with the object of eliciting it,” these theses are being posted in an effort to bring debate on them to American Christianity. They are observations and opinion, but are based on the current state of Christian belief in this country. The format is the same as Martin Luther’s, but it is my hope that the consequences of my action will not be division, but unity among American believers: unity in the midst of difference, guided by a respectful search for the truth, and governed by love.

In searching for the truth, we must all be open and vulnerable, and willing to listen to, understand, and reason through viewpoints not our own. We must also recognize the inherent good in such an endeavor, and not shy away from or fear Christ’s greatest commandment to us: “Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your mind and with all of your strength.” (Mark 12:30, emphasis added)

1. Christianity in America is a unique society of belief, unlike any before it in history.

2. American Christianity is divided and fragmented as few, if any, societies of belief have ever been.

3. This fragmentation is in direct opposition to Christ’s prayer that all believers be as one.

4. This fragmentation has also made it nearly impossible to engage in meaningful dialogue on the Christian faith in America.

5. Many attempts at meaningful dialogue are nothing more than close-minded claims of authority.

6. Christ calls all believers to love and respect each other, even in the midst of serious disagreements.

7. Our primary identity should be found in the fact that we are children of God, not that we are American, Southern, Libertarian, rich, etc.

8. American cultural values have become ingrained and unquestioned in the minds of Christians.

9. Christians in America are very often more informed by American values than the truth of the Gospel.

10. This devalues the truth and the power of the Gospel.

11. This also manifests itself in many ways, both obvious and subtle.

12. The Gospel is inherently relevant to any culture, and attempts to make it more relevant to a specific culture can very often be damaging and defeating.

13. Attempts by churches, however well-intentioned, to dress up worship and teaching in culturally relevant ways (modern churches with giant video screens in the front instead of altars or crosses, worship bands who emulate popular music trends, etc.) risk deluding the truth of Christ and subverting the message with the medium.

14. Mainline denominations have moved increasingly toward an accepting and postmodern creed.

15. Such movement holds the dangers of relativism and devaluation of truth, which undercut the foundations of Christ’s gospel.

16. This relativism is already leading to a denial of the sinful nature of humanity.

17. This relativism is also leading to a personal ambivalence toward absolute Truth, which has been made manifest in Christ.

18. This relativism is the reason why these denominations are stagnant in growth and, often, spirit.

19. Many conservative denominations have gone in the opposite direction of mainline denominations, becoming more and more intolerant of persons and groups.

20. The idea of tolerance has its roots in the philosophies of Reason and the Enlightenment, not Christianity.

21. While tolerance has its place in many aspects of life, it should not be an unquestioned good.

22. Christians should replace ‘tolerance’ and ‘intolerance’ in their vocabulary with ‘loving’ and ‘unloving’ in order to clarify debate on such issues.

23. Such clarification leads one to see that many of us act in very unloving ways toward unbelievers and fellow Christians.

24. This condemning, unloving attitude drives many people away from the Church, and overshadows the core of our belief, which is God’s love in Christ.

25. This condemning and unloving attitude stems from a confluence of Biblical literalism, legalism, and fear.

26. We may believe that certain parts of the Bible are not scientifically or historically accurate without at all compromising its claim to be the true word of God. (It is difficult to know how to read certain parts of the Bible (Genesis, Song of Solomon, etc.) – this difficulty should not keep us from reading it together)

27. The majority of evidence in God’s creation seems to indicate that certain parts of the Bible, for example the Creation story, are not historically or scientifically accurate.

28. God reveals His Truth in both Scripture and creation; therefore these two should reinforce and not contradict each other.

29. Science is not inherently opposed to religion; science can allow us to see aspects of God and His creation in new and beautiful ways.

30. Many of our fellow Christians have a legalistic mindset, much like the one Jesus condemned in the Pharisees of his day.

31. This mindset leads to our engagement in trivial, divisive matters such as trying to force religious teaching in public schools, boycotting stores that use ‘holiday’ instead of ‘Christmas’, or keeping displays of the Ten Commandments in government buildings.

32. Such endeavors follow the superficial letter of the law while undercutting the spirit of love which is the law’s foundation.

33. The condemning attitude many of us have is because many of us are also very fearful: afraid of being wrong, afraid of appearing weak, afraid of non-believers, afraid of God.

34. We do not need to be fearful of anything, because in Christ “perfect love drives out fear.” (1 John 4:18)

35. The fear some of us do have may come from an unhealthy obsession with hell and the Apocalypse.

36. This obsession causes an escapist mentality in many Christians.

37. This escapist mentality leads, in turn, to an ignorance (deliberate and not) of important aspects of Christian life.

38. Two of these important aspects are the care for the poor and the care for our environment.

39. During his time on Earth, Christ spent more time with the poor and the otherwise marginalized than with any other societal group.

40. American Christians generally do not reflect this priority, and in some cases directly contradict it.

41. “The love of money is a root of all evils.” (1 Timothy 6:10)

42. It is possible, but very difficult, to be wealthy and a Christian.

43. Christians, especially poor Christians, should be deeply offended when wealthy Christians indulge in material excess.

44. We should be even more offended when those indulging are spiritual leaders, such as those within the Prosperity Gospel movement.

45. We are explicitly instructed in God’s word to make caring for poor and marginalized persons and groups - in other words, seeking justice - a high priority in our lives as believers.

46. American Christians tend to think of “justice” too much in terms of judgement of sin, and not enough in terms of righting the wrongs of the world.

47. We are forbidden to judge sin, whereas we are commanded to right the wrongs of the world.

48. We are also commanded to care for God’s creation.

49. Humanity has done serious damage to God’s creation, and that damage is one of the wrongs we are commanded to right.

50. The obsession with hell and the end times not only affects us as a body of believers, it also has negative impact on our work in the world at large.

51. A prominent manifestation of this is when our fear of hell is used on others in attempts to manipulate and scare non-believers into accepting Christ.

52. This use of fear is contradictory to Christ’s command of love for one’s neighbor.

53. These attempts to manipulate and scare non-believers are deeply offensive and disrespectful to both those people and to Christ.

54. Christ clearly says that no one, not even He, will know the time of the second coming or the Apocalypse; therefore the obsession of some believers with these end-times events is groundless, fruitless, and pointless.

55. Moreover, this obsession has lead to deeply disturbing and frightening calls from some of our church leadership for the United States military to attack people in the Middle East.

56. These Christian leaders are calling for the murder of fellow human beings, fellow image-bearers of God, based on flawed and limited theology and a sense of moral and political superiority.

57. Their actions directly contradict the entirety of the Gospel.

58. In Scripture we are called always to peace, never to war, even at the cost of our lives.

59. It may perhaps be legitimately argued that war is at times necessary in a fallen world, but then only as an absolutely final option, and with heavy hearts and souls.

60. Those in power in our government have been able to easily exploit the fear of some of our fellow believers to further their own political and military agendas.

61. This is in part because Christians often derive their personal identity more from their national and political affiliations than from their shared faith.

62. This leads to many placing their allegiances to powers of the world higher than allegiances to God.

63. The prime, but by no means only, example of this identity shift is currently the conservative Christian Republican movement.

64. Many persons in positions of power within the Republican party and the Religious Right are attempting to hijack the beliefs of Christians in order to further their own political agendas.

65. The reaction of creating a ‘religious left’ helps and solves nothing; it only validates and deepens the divide.

66. The Democratic party is often guilty of the same manipulation of belief.

67. The agendas of both major political parties are very often in contrast to teachings of Christianity.

68. The tendency of Christians to support political candidates based on only one specific viewpoint (for example, being anti-abortion or anti-war), neglects the God-given gift of reason and its inherent responsibility.

69. In light of these observations, Christians need to put aside their political differences and make their primary goals to be love for each other and allegiance to God.

70. Power of any kind, but especially political and governmental power, is at best inherently dangerous and at worst absolutely corrupting.

71. Christians need to be extremely careful when in positions of power, and extremely wary of others in those positions.

72. Jesus was repeatedly presented with opportunities to take political power during his life; the Gospels show these opportunities to be temptations from Satan, which Jesus completely rejected.

73. American Capitalist values have deeply permeated American Christianity.

74. Capitalism values individualism and self-interest, which contradict many core aspects of Christianity (for example, Paul’s metaphor of the Church as one body with different parts).

75. We are, in fact, called by Christ to deny our selves and follow him.

76. Christians and churches often use Capitalist marketing and advertising techniques, the goals of which are manipulation and profit, in attempts to evangelize to others and edify each other.

77. The Gospel does not need a marketing technique to make it effective; it has sufficient power on its own. Attempts to “sell” the Gospel in this way cheapen its truth.

78. Using the same marketing and advertising techniques, art is often appropriated in order to sneak the Gospel to an unsuspecting audience.

79. This kind of appropriation not only undermines the creativity and search for truth which are the essences of art, it also devalues the Gospel itself.

80. An example of Christians attempting to edify each other while using these marketing and advertising techniques is the creation of an alternative Christian economy, centered primarily around entertainment.

81. The main purpose of this is to give Christians an alternative to the American culture, but it has failed at this purpose.

82. This failure is not clear; one must elaborate in order to clarify. The dominant American culture is one of entertainment, and Christian entertainment is not an alternative to that culture, merely a subset of it. When so-called “Christian” TV shows, movies, novels, video games, etc, are marketed, there is an implicit endorsement, not denial, of the American cultural norm. The culture then remains fundamentally unquestioned.

83. The American entertainment industry realizes the failure of the “Christian alternative”, while Christians do not. Evidence of this can be seen in the business structure of many entertainment corporations, which now have “Christian” divisions under secular heads (for example, Warner Faith publishing, or Fox Faith movie production).

84. This leads not to edification, but exploitation, of Christians.

85. If this exploitation takes place, we should be deeply offended that the gospel is being used in this way, in the same way Jesus was offended by the money-changers in the Temple.

86. Entertainment is a distraction, which leads very often to an inauthentic, passive, and self-centered existence.

87. This culture of entertainment may indeed have no place in the life of a Christian.

88. Many thoughtful and intelligent Christians disagree on whether a homosexual orientation is a sin. The Bible is not as clear on this issue as some think.

89. Even if homosexuality is a sin, the hateful, condemning attitude some Christians take toward homosexuals as persons is wrong.

90. Our role as followers of Christ is to love, not to judge.

91. God’s love is the cause and the root of all that is good and true in the world.

92. This love, made manifest in Christ and given to us by the Spirit, must be our guide in all things.

93. The Biblical story does not end with believers going to heaven, but God’s kingdom coming to Earth.

94. God’s Kingdom manifests itself here on Earth only when we love each other as Christ loves us, and work as Christ taught us.

95. Under the guidance and love of Christ, we can be reconciled to each other in the midst of our differences and love each other in such a way as to reverberate goodness and truth throughout the world.

Please join a national discussion online at http://anew95theses.blogspot.com/ and local discussions wherever you may be. Thank you for listening, and God bless.

How can a country call itself a Christian Nation when it allows the killing of over 3000 babies each day, butchered in order to preserve the right to have sex with no strings attached? How can a nation that consums billions of dollars of pornography that portrays women as objects and constructs laws that label such evil "free speech," call itself a Christian Nation? How can a nation that creates dependency on the state while promoting an entertainment culture call itself a Christian Nation? IT CAN'T.

Hi, I've recently became a US citizen and I spent a great deal of my time reading and studying this great nation's birth. It is my responsibility to point out a few things that have led individuals in this community to simply sound uneducated in the question posted.

This country was traveled to and founded on the principal revolutionary (at the time) belief that no other authority other than their creator was to rule over them, and if one was to rule, it would be one which respects the will of the citizen's and not a King (Tyranny).

I do agree with Mohler and I believe that this nation is a nation founded by Christians that built a strongly Christian foundation based on the values they held high...our laws, education, science, commerce, rights, etc.

While many individuals believe that war is not a Christian value and it is commonly found in our history, I would like to quote Patrick Henry and give one's Christian value to some of the recent belical conflicts.

"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”

"I know, sir, how well it becomes a liberal man and a Christian to forget and forgive. As individuals professing a holy religion, it is our bounden duty to forgive injuries done us as individuals. But when the character of Christian you add the character of patriot, you are in a different situation. Our mild and holy system of religion inculcates an admirable maxim of forbearance. If your enemy smite one cheek, turn the other to him. But you must stop there. You cannot apply this to your country. As members of a social community, this maxim does not apply to you. When you consider injuries done to your country your political duty tells you of vengeance. Forgive as a private man, but never forgive public injuries. Observations of this nature are exceedingly unpleasant, but it is my duty to use them."

To me, it is primarilyy more important that Christian values are continued in the souls and minds of our citizens, for these have given us more than we can ever imagine. It is our Christian duty to continue helping those in need and solve differences among us in a respecful manner to further enjoy the fruits of our greatly human devotion to our creator.

If it helps others in this communication stream, I consider myself a Christian conservative that opposes both abortion and capital punishment, and so do many of my colleagues.

Rodrigo Fontan.

Is Christmas or the celbration of lights not a pagan tradition? Jesus Christ was born on dec 25th? Was that not a celebration for a pagan god that to carried over? There is nothing Christian about this season, other than celebrating the birth of Jesus christ. beyoond that, there is no true Christian aspects to this season or the day.

Many will argue that yes the U.S. is a Christian nation as its founding laws (the Constitution) are based on the ten commandments. If you asked anyone if it was a Christian country in practice, the answer will be a vehement NO! No matter how you spin the debate, America fails miserably in the area of practice or applied faith. I say that as one who considers himself a Christian. This country worships money. Our decisions are made based on money, not faith or those principals. Our lives are so controlled by money, wealth, materialism and survival that faith and love are secondary.

I'm a bit disturbed by the wording of the question. "Some politically conservative Christians say . . . " But certainly some politically liberal Christians say ... the same thing, as well as politically moderate Christians, as well as Christians who are inconsistent in political views, as well as Christians who don't participate in politics at all. So, first, the question is loaded against some unnamed "politically conservative Christians," and invites the vitriol against them of some of the posts.

Second, there is also a difference between a "nation," a "government," a "people," a "dominate social message," etc., and the ambiguity of the term "nation" is not helpful in generating a positive discussion.

Third, what Christmas imagery do you mean -- an evergreen tree, a snowman, a Santa Claus, Joseph and Mary, or what? Mere reflection on the sum total of Christmas imagery tells me America is crassly materialistic, excessive, gaudy, and kitschy. It doesn't tell me much about religion -- except it may be evidence of the worship of self, money, and thoughtless, tasteless expressionism.

Fourth, on the last question, of course a nation cannot be, or not be, "Christian." America should be a nation where Christians (and people of other faith or no faith at all) can live as individuals, as groups, and in interaction with other individuals and groups of other (non) faiths in reasonable peace and accommodation. Most all do -- others make nearly all the posts on these kinds of sites.

Maybe next time you'll think more carefully about the wording of the question.

It is interesting that few repond to what others have said. Is this just a posting of opinions or is there some dialogue involved?

A majority of people in this country identify themselves as Christian. Yet, a founding principle of our nation is the seperation of church and state. All private parties should therefore feel free to practice their own beliefs or disbeliefs as long as such practices do not infringe on anyone else's rights. And government employees or resources should not be used to promote religion. With most of our citizens Christian, it is inevitable that Christmas songs and decorations be pervasive at this time of year. That is OK. By the same token, if enough people feel uncomfortable about involuntarily living and shopping in an environment in which they feel alien, their complaints will prompt retailers to reduce pervasive Christmas music and decorations. Due to immigration from Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, and atheistic countries, a critical mass of people who are ill at ease with the external trappings of Christmas may be reached. Whether or not this leads to a reduction in Christmas displays and music will be determined by the free market, as is usual in our nation.

A theocracy this country should not be. This country used to be a nation where people could immigrate to in order to flee oppressive governments that prevented freedom of religion. Now the U.S. is turning into the very thing that the forefathers had wanted to escape. Christianity is a fear based religion that depends on it's followers to be afraid of something. Now, since 9/11, there's been this major surge in Christian church attendance. People are now "afraid" of terrorist bombs.

The U.S. never felt like a religous state when growing up here. However, now Christianity is going hand in hand with nationalism. Nationalism is being masqueraded as patriotism. However, a patriot is neither defined by loyalty to a government nor religion.

I hope this surge in religious nationalism dissipates over time. It does not help to counter radical Islam with radical Christianity. The struggle between Israel and Palestine should be proof enough this is a war that cannot be won. America was better off as a secular nation.