Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

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Christmas is not Christian.

Not all beliefs and customs are bad. But God does not approve of them if they come from false religion or are against Bible teachings.(Matthew 15:6).

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions.
The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."
Christmas, or the Nativity, was not celebrated by early Christians. One encyclopedia says about this: "The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth." The Bible links the celebration of birthdays with pagans, not with God's true worshipers. (Matthew 14:6-10)
This does not mean that it is not beneficial to learn and remember the actual events involved in the birth of the Son of God. The factual Bible account provides important insights and lessons for all those who want to do God's will.
Matthew's account mentions that astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem looking for the place where the King of the Jews was born. King Herod was very interested in this—but not with good intentions. "Sending them to Bethlehem, he said: 'Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.'" The astrologers found the young child and "opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." But they did not go back to Herod. "They were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod." God used an angel to warn Joseph of Herod's intentions. Joseph and Mary then fled to Egypt with their son. Next, in an effort to eliminate the new King, cruel King Herod ordered the killing of boys in the Bethlehem area. Those two years of age and under.(Matthew 2:1-16).
The visiting astrologers—however many of them there were—did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: "The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion." They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod's palace. Later on, God did intervene to alter their course to protect the child.
At Christmastime this account is often surrounded by a mythical and romantic atmosphere that obscures the most important thing: that this baby was born to be a magnificent King, as was announced to Mary and to the shepherds. Jesus Christ is not a baby anymore, or even a child. He is the ruling King of God's Kingdom, which very soon will eliminate all rulerships opposed to God's will, and he will solve all problems of mankind. That is the Kingdom we ask for in the Lord's Prayer.(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10).
Through the angels' declaration to the shepherds, we learn that the opportunity for salvation is open to all who are willing to hear the message of the good news. Those who gain the favor of God become "men of goodwill." There are marvelous prospects for peace in all the world under the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but people must be willing to do God's will. (Luke 2:10, 11, 14).

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Author Russell Hamner unleashes a resounding expansion with Tate Publishing that cannot be ignored in his antithesis - Awake the third Testament.

Beginning with religion Awake gives conclusive proof that the worlds understanding of Christianity is inexact. Starting with the understanding of Faith, Awake at last defines just exactly what Faith is, showing that faith is not just believing that there is a Jesus Christ, reproving Martin Luther’s theory “by faith alone”

Gods’ Will Before Religion:
If you believe that God gave us life in Genesis, and you believe that God freed us in Exodus. Then you can understand that Jesus Christ came to do Gods will, which is to free us and save us. And we should believe him because God raised him on the third day to prove that doing Gods will of giving life with the life you have been given, brings life. And suggests that giving death brings death.
It is Gods’ Spirit to give life and freedom; it is Gods’ will to give life and freedom

If you believe and understand that everything in the law is what is wrong to God, and there is a punishment for it. Then you can see why that it is ok with God to give life, and give liberty because it is what he did himself, and he designed the law to protect life and liberty.

If you believe that it is wrong to give life and give freedom, you denounce your own life and freedom. You can’t say it is wrong to give life or give freedom because then you believe in having your life taken and your freedom taken.

These are the only two events that can be revealed in our reality that cannot be viewed as evil or against the law. It is pure; it does not offend; it is divine.

Government:
Awake then reveals how the Colonist used the very will of God, to free and save The U.S. from death and bondage, and form a nation in the name of God.

Gods’ will is completed, proven and recorded in the Declaration of Independence. They did Gods will and prayed for Independence, and became a nation that gives life and gives freedom.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This is to say the truth is self evident that their religious beliefs given by God are life and liberty. The only way to happiness is being alive and being free.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,
(deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.)
This is to say that governments are formed for the protection of our religious beliefs of life, and liberty, and the governed have a say as to their life and liberty.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

This is to say that anytime any form of government becomes destructive to Gods will of life and liberty, it is the right and the duty of the people to abolish it and set a new or conformed government that is not destructive to life and liberty.

And they vowed their lives, fortunes and sacred honor, to save life, and give freedom and happiness to the oppressed. The power of Jesus Christ Awakes!

And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, [Godly Intervention] we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

They proved that doing the will of God brought life, freedom, and happiness, that politics and law are sub-compartments of religion, and religion holds the true power. And from that day it made us the greatest country in the world because they gave life and gave freedom, Gods will.

Critics say, “We don’t mix religion and politics,” scientists say, “Religion is not a science.” I believe that these mind-sets have been instrumental in why we have not discovered what I reveal in “Awake the third testament.”

I have discovered the religious science that has the ability to balance all science
Ø Political science. The main concern with political science is to establish how power is exercised, and by whom, in resolving conflict within a nation.
Ø Social science. The scientific study of the best social plan for society outside of government as a nation.
Ø Economic science. The scientific study of the creation and distribution of wealth and national income to combat depression and economic stagnation.

The science of religion:
This is the science of religion and how it would solve the problematic sciences of political, social and economic science. In the beginning when God saved the Israelites out of Egypt, he instituted the perfect political and religious science that deals with life on earth as a nation.

1. He instituted the government of the law, and appointed Moses as the governor to protect the nation with powers of the military and law.
2. He instituted the Government of Jesus Christ, and appointed Aaron as the governor of the spirit of God, a saving government that is for the welfare of his people with powers of the spirit of life.
He instituted two bodies of power, one to run the law and one to run the kingdom of Christ. And there is a very good reason he instituted two powers, because he knew he also created two types of people:

1. The conservative republican, whose spirit, is to defend his nation, and execute the law to those who choose to take life with the powers that be.
2. The social democrat, whose spirit, is to love his brother in giving him the basic necessities of life out of the powers that be.

Awakes main object is to awaken the two hundred million religious in the U.S. to unite and Form the body of Christ, and bring forth the government of Christ, a National Church that gives life and freedom creating true peace & happiness

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the Government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his Government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The Zeal of the Lord of host will perform this.” (Isaiah 9:6-7)

This would more logically organize the powers. Instead of the social leaders butting heads with the conservative leaders they would be separated, ending the great conflict in Government resolving political science!

1. This would allow the federal government of law to run at 100% efficiency without social issues throwing a wrench into the machinery. They would continue to protect life and freedom.

2. This would allow Christ’s social government to run at 100% efficiency without having lawful issues throwing a wrench in the machinery. They would give life and give freedom resolving social science!

Economics:
In 2008 the federal budget, 2.66 trillion dollars were accumulated in taxation.

In comparison, if the 200 million Christians unite and form the temple/government of Christ, and put the entire tithe in the temple from the 340,000 churches in America it could accumulate 1.56 trillion dollars annually.

In the federal budget 1.52 trillion was spent on social issues such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP unemployment/welfare/other, that was derived by taxation.

Through the faith based initiative put forth by president Bush, all of these social programs could be transferred from the federal government to the government of Christ, eliminating the need for most taxation, or allowing new tax measures such as the fair tax method, which would free up money and increase the economy.

The government of Christ would focus on the main issues that affect the people, by helping the federal government pay down the national deficit, which would increase the value of the dollar, bringing down the cost of energy and commodities.

Slack in demand causes recession and depression, whenever people quit buying for any reason whatsoever the economy stalls. The government of Christ, working with the federal government would then issue billions of dollars in vouchers to the poor for housing, or furnishings, or automobiles. [Whichever market is failing] Saving that market, preventing recession and simultaneously saving the poor, this in time will bring about a wealthy classless society.

It would create millions of jobs and put “We The People” back in control of our own destiny. We would have the financial power of another country inside this country. And it would double the power and efficiency of the American economy, which in time would balance the world economy, resolving economic science.

The greatest philosophers of all times struggled to answer these questions, Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli and Marx and although they could see all of the elements of socialism and capitalism, law and religion. They could not see how to make it work, and saw revolution, communism and oppression as the end result.
Because they didn’t understand, we don’t need a revolution we need a revelation!

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh Angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10: 15 - And the seventh Angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (1) and Of his Christ;(2) and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Awake: The Third Testament “to the mystery of the kingdom of heaven”

“LET US DARE TO READ, THINK, SPEAK AND WRITE.” – JOHN ADAMS, 1765

This century Abdu’l Baha’ predicted a successful synthesis of the spiritual and material sciences in the near future: This union will bring about true civilization where the spiritual is expressed and carried out in the material. Receiving thus, one from the other, the greatest harmony will prevail, all people will be united, a state of great perfection will be attained, there will be a firm cementing, and this world will become a shining mirror for the reflection of the attributes of God. (1911) “Paris Talks.

Author Russell Hamner unleashes a resounding expansion with Tate Publishing that cannot be ignored in his antithesis - Awake the third Testament.

Beginning with religion Awake gives conclusive proof that the worlds understanding of Christianity is inexact. Starting with the understanding of Faith, Awake at last defines just exactly what Faith is, showing that faith is not just believing that there is a Jesus Christ, reproving Martin Luther’s theory “by faith alone”

Gods’ Will Before Religion:
If you believe that God gave us life in Genesis, and you believe that God freed us in Exodus. Then you can understand that Jesus Christ came to do Gods will, which is to free us and save us. And we should believe him because God raised him on the third day to prove that doing Gods will of giving life with the life you have been given, brings life. And suggests that giving death brings death.
It is Gods’ Spirit to give life and freedom; it is Gods’ will to give life and freedom

If you believe and understand that everything in the law is what is wrong to God, and there is a punishment for it. Then you can see why that it is ok with God to give life, and give liberty because it is what he did himself, and he designed the law to protect life and liberty.

If you believe that it is wrong to give life and give freedom, you denounce your own life and freedom. You can’t say it is wrong to give life or give freedom because then you believe in having your life taken and your freedom taken.

These are the only two events that can be revealed in our reality that cannot be viewed as evil or against the law. It is pure; it does not offend; it is divine.

Government:
Awake then reveals how the Colonist used the very will of God, to free and save The U.S. from death and bondage, and form a nation in the name of God.

Gods’ will is completed, proven and recorded in the Declaration of Independence. They did Gods will and prayed for Independence, and became a nation that gives life and gives freedom.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This is to say the truth is self evident that their religious beliefs given by God are life and liberty. The only way to happiness is being alive and being free.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,
(deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.)
This is to say that governments are formed for the protection of our religious beliefs of life, and liberty, and the governed have a say as to their life and liberty.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

This is to say that anytime any form of government becomes destructive to Gods will of life and liberty, it is the right and the duty of the people to abolish it and set a new or conformed government that is not destructive to life and liberty.

And they vowed their lives, fortunes and sacred honor, to save life, and give freedom and happiness to the oppressed. The power of Jesus Christ Awakes!

And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, [Godly Intervention] we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

They proved that doing the will of God brought life, freedom, and happiness, that politics and law are sub-compartments of religion, and religion holds the true power. And from that day it made us the greatest country in the world because they gave life and gave freedom, Gods will.

Critics say, “We don’t mix religion and politics,” scientists say, “Religion is not a science.” I believe that these mind-sets have been instrumental in why we have not discovered what I reveal in “Awake the third testament.”

I have discovered the religious science that has the ability to balance all science
Ø Political science. The main concern with political science is to establish how power is exercised, and by whom, in resolving conflict within a nation.
Ø Social science. The scientific study of the best social plan for society outside of government as a nation.
Ø Economic science. The scientific study of the creation and distribution of wealth and national income to combat depression and economic stagnation.

The science of religion:
This is the science of religion and how it would solve the problematic sciences of political, social and economic science. In the beginning when God saved the Israelites out of Egypt, he instituted the perfect political and religious science that deals with life on earth as a nation.

1. He instituted the government of the law, and appointed Moses as the governor to protect the nation with powers of the military and law.
2. He instituted the Government of Jesus Christ, and appointed Aaron as the governor of the spirit of God, a saving government that is for the welfare of his people with powers of the spirit of life.
He instituted two bodies of power, one to run the law and one to run the kingdom of Christ. And there is a very good reason he instituted two powers, because he knew he also created two types of people:

1. The conservative republican, whose spirit, is to defend his nation, and execute the law to those who choose to take life with the powers that be.
2. The social democrat, whose spirit, is to love his brother in giving him the basic necessities of life out of the powers that be.

Awakes main object is to awaken the two hundred million religious in the U.S. to unite and Form the body of Christ, and bring forth the government of Christ, a National Church that gives life and freedom creating true peace & happiness

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the Government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his Government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The Zeal of the Lord of host will perform this.” (Isaiah 9:6-7)

This would more logically organize the powers. Instead of the social leaders butting heads with the conservative leaders they would be separated, ending the great conflict in Government resolving political science!

1. This would allow the federal government of law to run at 100% efficiency without social issues throwing a wrench into the machinery. They would continue to protect life and freedom.

2. This would allow Christ’s social government to run at 100% efficiency without having lawful issues throwing a wrench in the machinery. They would give life and give freedom resolving social science!

Economics:
In 2008 the federal budget, 2.66 trillion dollars were accumulated in taxation.

In comparison, if the 200 million Christians unite and form the temple/government of Christ, and put the entire tithe in the temple from the 340,000 churches in America it could accumulate 1.56 trillion dollars annually.

In the federal budget 1.52 trillion was spent on social issues such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP unemployment/welfare/other, that was derived by taxation.

Through the faith based initiative put forth by president Bush, all of these social programs could be transferred from the federal government to the government of Christ, eliminating the need for most taxation, or allowing new tax measures such as the fair tax method, which would free up money and increase the economy.

The government of Christ would focus on the main issues that affect the people, by helping the federal government pay down the national deficit, which would increase the value of the dollar, bringing down the cost of energy and commodities.

Slack in demand causes recession and depression, whenever people quit buying for any reason whatsoever the economy stalls. The government of Christ, working with the federal government would then issue billions of dollars in vouchers to the poor for housing, or furnishings, or automobiles. [Whichever market is failing] Saving that market, preventing recession and simultaneously saving the poor, this in time will bring about a wealthy classless society.

It would create millions of jobs and put “We The People” back in control of our own destiny. We would have the financial power of another country inside this country. And it would double the power and efficiency of the American economy, which in time would balance the world economy, resolving economic science.

The greatest philosophers of all times struggled to answer these questions, Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli and Marx and although they could see all of the elements of socialism and capitalism, law and religion. They could not see how to make it work, and saw revolution, communism and oppression as the end result.
Because they didn’t understand, we don’t need a revolution we need a revelation!

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh Angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10: 15 - And the seventh Angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (1) and Of his Christ;(2) and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Awake: The Third Testament “to the mystery of the kingdom of heaven”

“LET US DARE TO READ, THINK, SPEAK AND WRITE.” – JOHN ADAMS, 1765

This century Abdu’l Baha’ predicted a successful synthesis of the spiritual and material sciences in the near future: This union will bring about true civilization where the spiritual is expressed and carried out in the material. Receiving thus, one from the other, the greatest harmony will prevail, all people will be united, a state of great perfection will be attained, there will be a firm cementing, and this world will become a shining mirror for the reflection of the attributes of God. (1911) “Paris Talks.

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ALL religions are CULTS! I hate religion. It is the root of many of our problems in the world.

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True Christians do not celebrate Christmas.

Not all beliefs and customs are bad. But God does not approve of them if they come from false religion or are against Bible teachings.(Matthew 15:6).

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions.
The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."
Christmas, or the Nativity, was not celebrated by early Christians. One encyclopedia says about this: "The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth." The Bible links the celebration of birthdays with pagans, not with God's true worshipers. (Matthew 14:6-10)
This does not mean that it is not beneficial to learn and remember the actual events involved in the birth of the Son of God. The factual Bible account provides important insights and lessons for all those who want to do God's will.
Matthew's account mentions that astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem looking for the place where the King of the Jews was born. King Herod was very interested in this—but not with good intentions. "Sending them to Bethlehem, he said: 'Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.'" The astrologers found the young child and "opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." But they did not go back to Herod. "They were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod." God used an angel to warn Joseph of Herod's intentions. Joseph and Mary then fled to Egypt with their son. Next, in an effort to eliminate the new King, cruel King Herod ordered the killing of boys in the Bethlehem area. Those two years of age and under.(Matthew 2:1-16).
The visiting astrologers—however many of them there were—did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: "The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion." They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod's palace. Later on, God did intervene to alter their course to protect the child.
At Christmastime this account is often surrounded by a mythical and romantic atmosphere that obscures the most important thing: that this baby was born to be a magnificent King, as was announced to Mary and to the shepherds. Jesus Christ is not a baby anymore, or even a child. He is the ruling King of God's Kingdom, which very soon will eliminate all rulerships opposed to God's will, and he will solve all problems of mankind. That is the Kingdom we ask for in the Lord's Prayer.(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10).
Through the angels' declaration to the shepherds, we learn that the opportunity for salvation is open to all who are willing to hear the message of the good news. Those who gain the favor of God become "men of goodwill." There are marvelous prospects for peace in all the world under the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but people must be willing to do God's will. (Luke 2:10, 11, 14).

(a) Whatever channel, whatever time, whatever day in America, there are programmes of sex, greed, vulgarity and violence. (b) By the age of 16 EACH American child has seen over 50,000 violent deaths. (c)Video games, pornography are spawned by American Nation.(d) Wealth is loved, praised and killed, cheated, and lied for.

So am I right in concluding that America is not a Christian nation?

But of course there will be people who say "I don't watch it! I am a Christian. Not Me!"

Yeah?

Who ya kidding?

The real question is "are Christians really Christians?"

And the answer is what is Christianity? Is Christ really the center of Christianity or is it John, or perhaps Peter or maybe even Judah? Did they really mourn the death of the savior or was it just a mascarade, a fight between wolves for the control of people's fear/love of G-d?

America a Christian nation? Perhaps in the minds of some, but our actions show us to be far removed from any vestige of true Christianity. By the standards of any mainstream Christian faith, we are a nation of barbarians. We take from the poor so the rich can have more, start wars based on lies, fight with each other over obscenity on TV and radio while countless children go to bed hungry, and ignore our homeless. Prosperity gospel "Christians" live lives of incredible luxury while exhorting their followers to pony up more money for Jesus, and we jail a higher percentage of our citizens than any nation in the free world, and for that matter than many nations which we condemn for human rights abuses. Is hypocrisy considered Christian?

America is a nation founded on Christian principles, but separate from Christianity. Some right-wing conservatives believe in classifying America as a Christian nation and argues secular issues from a religious framework. I am a Christian Evangelical, but I cannot expect the laws that govern our society to be soley based on my religious convictions, for the same reason that I would do not want any other religious group dictating or passing laws in the name of their faith.

The term Secular has been tainted by many in the US to mean Atheism with out thinking about why government is Secular. Secular government is the removal of religion from state, the removal of religion from reason, logic, and law while respecting its existence outside of government. Secular Government protects the freedom of religion by not including it in the laws that govern the nation. Steven Waldman (speaking of faith NPR) could not be more incorrect when he mentions the founding fathers personal belief as proof that religion or the church should fuse with government. State written prayers, church/religion, or state belief systems violate the individuals right to believe as they choose. Steven Waldman should realize that a secular government keeps any singular form of religion from taking control of the government. A secular system of democracy is the cornerstone to the foundation of the amendments that allow citizens the right to believe in any or no religious system. The separation of church and state or the anti-establishment clause of the constitution allows Christian religious conservatives to practice their faith as they see fit. As well it protects the Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion, the freedom of religion does not mean that any one religion has a right to use the state as a tool for self-advancement. The argument that the separation is a gray area is a fallacy. A nation is either secular or theocratic. There is no gray area. The separation of church and state was not intended for the flourishing of any one religion. It was intended to keep all belief free by keeping the state out or belief. There is no mention of any sectarian definition of God used in any historical document of the US, nor should there be. Waldman should remember that there was no founding faith outlined in the declaration of independence or the constitution. I would ask Waldman who’s God does it refer to? Does religion truly make for improved civic or individual behavior patterns? Some of the worst elements of society have been devoutly religious, Hitler, the BTK killer, the leaders of the Christian and Muslim crusades, the witch hunters of Europe and early America, Bin Laden, and on and on it goes. Yes there was Stalin and Poll Pot but they pale in comparison to the religious violence perpetrated over the millennia. So I would argue that the founding fathers knew history well and that is why they created a secular government even while they may have been religious themselves. It is sad that many Christians hear the term religion and think only of themselves. How greedy and self-serving. We must realize that secularism rejects religion in government while recognizing its right to exist separate from government, in the privacy of your home and places of worship. It recognizes God given rights while not recognizing any particular organized religion.

There are people who abuse the term or concept “freedom of religion” without really understanding the true depth of the words involved. Lets start with the word religion. What is a religion: the belief, habit, ritual, thought, or faith? I believe all synonyms would apply to the definition of the word. Religion could be how I tie my shoes, my political ideas, my thoughts on science, or my feelings toward a particular brand name (in some cases consumerism qualify as religion). Many only argue that religion is strictly a word with a monopoly pertaining only to God or the Church. If you can make the argument that even atheistic approaches that of a religion; then one has to accept that my views on foreign policy or free trade qualify as a religion. Religion is a single or series of repeated behaviors and or thought. That is why we have a freedom of speech, privacy, and the freedom of religion within the constitution. All the concepts of the document from our revolutionary era uphold one another. They cannot exist without the other. These rights are all a form or relative or thought. They are all an attempt to protect the freedom of thought. Such wording of the constitution has to be interpreted with the full meaning of the word. For words are ideas, concepts, or theologies in and of themselves. Now think about the word freedom. I hope we all understand what freedom is. As well we should also think about what we do not have the freedom to do. There are many thoughts that are originated within Biblical religion that people do not have the right to do; consider many verses of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Revelation, and other books of the Bible. (I would hope we all know which verses they are) We do not have a total freedom for Biblical Church based religion. If we did, we would be living in a world of chaos, torture, and general madness including witch burnings, stoning, forced conversion, or be-headings. There are concepts in the secular world that are beliefs which are illegal they are the current laws on the books. Those laws are a record of what belief or thoughts you shall not hold. So beware when Biblical religion claims they have the power, the right, or the protection to conduct their actions when in conjunction with the government. There are some who would claim that Biblical religion has the freedom of religion as to fuse with the government or take on the responsibilities/functions of government with tax dollar support. My faith-based program is the issue and unconstitutionality of faith based programs and any vicarious use of those programs for the potential of converts via the heading of people to faith based services. The Church should function independently from government at all times. This serves the society in protection of the true freedom of religion, our freedom of thought.

2008-03-27, WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan certainly knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on Google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collapse the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why most of the Jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS but doesn’t fall and not couple of floors which after FEW HOURS fall like sand bag in FEW MINUTES on Google.( THE MAD BRUTAL USA ADMINISTRATION THINK world is buying that horrific joke done by themselves.)
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applied? See on Google!
4- On Google you will also find the twin towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor and their sound effects proving something else film captured???
5- On Google see Pentagon crash recording. Where is the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on Google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID LIKE HIM....right CCNL! NEXT TIME MAKE THE FIRE FIGHTERS DRESS OF THIS UNBURNED PASSPORT MATERIAL… good idea isn’t it??

AHMED FROM BAHRAIN :
Concerned
You have such flawed judgment. To avoid looking at your own mischief you keep harking at Muslims in general. Take a close look at your own self-righteous foreign policy before you accuse me of anything. In this day of internet, nothing is hidden except your head in the fake sand of your own thoughts.
Wake up and admit to the fact that your country has the biggest power and it is using it in a major negative way and your taxes pay for that.
Like a cracked record with its needle stuck, you hark on a 1000 years of injustices that I never had a part in but try to avoid what injustices you inflict today. Right now. Concern yourself with NOW.
This is my last post addressing your cracked record. You have moved from my radar.

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

Thanks for the great post, Susan!

I was unaware of the insidious influences of Christianity in this country with respect to Native Americans. Especially outrageous is the fact the the much-vaunted "freedom of religion" clause of the First Amendment was violated in both spirit and letter by those purporting to be Christians, the same people who seem to be constantly whining that their First Amendment rights are being violated.

Occasionally one encounters an eye-opening post such as yours which provides a real-life perspective of a social issue as opposed to so many posts which are nothing but meaningless exercises in mental masturbation and which merely pile uninformed banality upon uninformed banality without offering anything new or insightful.

You have motivated me to familiarize myself with an area of American history of which most Americans seem to be totally ignorant.

I don't mean to pry, but are you by any chance in the education profession? I am merely curious. If you choose not to respond, I understand.

Thanks again!

Susanc:

The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population. The U.S. has "graciously allowed" the vanquished to continue to subsist within its borders, as is the customary and usual practice in such cases. So far as I'm aware, the only exception to this situation is that of the northwestern Salish tribes, who struck a bargain with the U.S. in the form of a treaty, giving them the right to settle on Salish lands.

All the legal folderall that is the history of U.S. relationships with the "Indians" is window dressing; its purpose was to appease the conscience of those in the U.S. who "struggled" with their "Christian duty" in these regards. It may be reasonable to judge the truth of the religious "commitment" of the U.S. officials, a judgment that, on evidence, is harshly negative.

Note all the terms in quotations. I've no idea what the older inhabitants of this land called the land, or themselves. I've got a pretty good idea about the reality of the euphemisms, however: They are euphemisms for good reason; the terms are baldly deceitful.

No reasonable person would accuse you or your people of having anything in common with the Christian U.S. That you manage to have thrived in your state of bondage is a credit to you and yours. However, this is often the case with the vanquished, which is why conquerers always find it useful to be wary, lest the vanquished turn the tables and the conquerers find themselves outside their own gates!

For instance, Rome was very clear about this in the early part of the Empire, but failed in this regard with the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. The result is that it lost its supremacy not only to a subsequent religion, but to a variant of its own for a time! Arguably, Christianity is the major reason for the ambiguous state of "Native Americans" in the U.S.

Do not sully your people or their history with any comparison to that of Christianity, for doing so is a disservice and a dishonor.

William D. Tallman

I am a Reservation-born First American whose first language was a dialect of Athapascan. Many years ago I granted myself a two-year hiatus from my business during which time I "researched" Apache history and culture. I did this solely for my own edification. My research entailed reading hundreds of archived newspapers, church records, old army documents, municipal records, library collections, private document collections, treaties, Federal statutes, State laws and reservation histories in the southwest and in the Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora. Additionally, I had numerous conversations with several Apache elders in their own language. The oral histories were fascinating, though some events were apocryphal, I am sure. They were nonetheless interesting in that they presented a part of our history from a Native perspective.

Of particular interest to me was the official (read: government of the United States) treatment of American Indians, especially by official sprofessing to be good christians. This was of interest to me because of my personal experiences in the mission school where I was occasionally referred to as the "little heathen" because of my propensity to ask "uncomfortable" questions.

So, where does one begin with the treatment of American Indians by this "christian nation?"

Perhaps one could begin with the reference in the Declaration of Independence to those pesky "merciless Indian savages" who had the audacity to defend the lands they had lived on for thousands of years prior to the arrival of those benevolent European christians.

Then one could continue with the following:

-- The rather presumptuous Indian Proclamation of the First Continental Congress (1783) which states, "The United States in Congress assembled have the sole and exclusive right and power of regulating trade and managing all affairs with the Indians," a proclamation that set in place the precedent by which Natives were eventually denied religious freedom by the Federal Government;

-- The 1819 Indian Civilization Fund Act, the primary intent of which was -- with considerable support from "christian" organizations -- to create a fund to reform and "civilize" the Indian peoples in accordance with christian religio-cultural norms imposed upon them by the Federal Government;

-- The Annual Reports of the Federal Board of Commissioners of Indian Affairs from 1832 to 1934 which contain numerous references to the "christianization" of Natives as well as to measures taken to prohibit Natives from practicing their religions. The first report of the Board noted that its duties were "to educate the Indians in industry, the arts of civilization, and the principles of Christianity." The board was given joint control with the Secretary of the Interior over congressional funds appropriated for dealing with the Indian agencies. Christian missionaries of most major denominations were given government support for the founding of missions in conjunction with 73 Federal Agencies on Indian reservation lands;

-- The Indian Removal Act of 1832 which caused First Americans to be dislodged from lands that had been sacred to them for thousands of years.

-- The 1851 Indian Appropriations Act which, along with other laws, set in motion the establishment of the Reservation System, one of the purposes of which was to place Indians in concentration camps so that they could be more easily controlled while their land was being stolen;

-- The 1872 report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs which stated that agents from most Protestant denominations had been appointed "to assume charge of the intellectual and moral education of the Indians." By this time, Native children were being removed from their families, often by force, and shipped to christian (those "family values" folks) missionary schools where they were denied the rights to speak Native languages, wear Native clothing or practice any form of Native religion. Corporal punishment was the order of the day and sexual abuse of Native children at these schools good christians was not uncommon.

-- The Indian Religious Crimes Code developed in 1883 by Secretary of the Interior Henry Teller -- a professing christian -- as a means of prohibiting Native American ceremonial activities under pain of imprisonment;

-- The 1892 "Rules for Indian Courts" of the Commission of Indian Affairs which established a series of criminal offenses aimed at stamping out Native American religious practices;

-- Records of 19th-century Army tribunals convened to try Native Americans for a variety of crimes, including the practice of Native religions, frequently without the benefit of defense counsel and often without the right to call witnesses.

Because of the numerous federal and state statutes, laws, directives and edicts (the above are just a smattering), it is very obvious that the First Amendment to the Constitution did not apply to First Americans. But I suppose I should be grateful as the government deigned to make us citizens in 1924. In spite of the opposition of some "christian" sects.

A personal aside: As a child, I was technically prohibited by Federal law from participating in an event central to our culture, the Sunrise ceremony. In spite of this prohibition, my parents and clan held a secret abbreviated version of the ceremony for me.

Not until 1978 when the American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed in Congress (over the almost vehement objections of many "good christians") were American Indians permitted to once again practice their religions.

I could go on for hundreds of pages concerning this subject, but perhaps the above examples will serve as a starting point for anyone interested in the history of American Indians and the manner in which they were treated by a government that was heavily influenced by good christians. I have not even touched upon the enslavement of Native Americans (example: municipal records of Santa Fe reveal the presence of more than 600 Native slaves in 1886), the broken treaties or the numerous massacres of American Indians who made the mistake of defending their lands from foreign invaders nor have I touched upon the bible-based justifications and rationalizations for the theft by brutal force and subterfuge of the lands on which Indians had lived for so long. And I won't even go into such atrocities as the pubic scalps and tobacco pouches made from the breasts of Native women that were so proudly displayed by some European "christians."

America a Christian Nation? I am not sure just what is meant by that descriptor, but I would certainly hope that this country will never again become the nation of Christian Bigotry, Cruelty, Dishonesty and Exploitation experienced first-hand by me and my fellow First Americans.

In closing, I will leave you with a story, most likely apocryphal, that I find rather amusing:

Many years ago a mission preacher came to the Rez on his first assignment. After a few months, the locals gave him the honorific name, “Walking Eagle.” The Rev was very proud of his “injun” name and had it printed on the mission stationery and put on the sign in front of the mission. What he apparently never realized was that he was called “Walking Eagle” because he was so full of s--t that he couldn’t fly.

Of course the United States of America is a Christian nation. Just look around!

Was it founded as a Christian nation? Not especially, but the fact is that the majority of the population in the then British Colonies were advocates and members of some Christian sect. The assumption of most folk was that whatever colony they called home existed for some religious reason. Church membership was socially mandatory in some of the colonies, regarded as a social asset in others (just as it is today).

Now, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the 1st Amendment, and for good reason. Here's why: "Congress shall make no law regarding * establishment of religion..." What word does the asterisk replace? Is it 'the', or is it 'an'? The word modifies the meaning of 'establishment'.

'The' establishment can be construed as an action, where establishment is a verb form: The lexical authority of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary(OED), and it includes in branch II, "The action of establishing; the fact of being established". Arguably, this speaks to the denial of the government the right to establish a religion, ie, a state religion.

'An' establishment is better construed as objective, where establishment is a noun. This is the general sense given in the OED, and this has a very different connotation: an establishment of religion in this case is a church. What this means is that the government can make no law concerning an existing religious institution.

It turns out that the wording in the Constitution is "an establishment". What this does is to forbid the government from any power with regard religion, but it does not forbid a religion from having power in the government. Effectively, the state is held separate from the church, but the church is apparently assumed as an acceptable part of the state.

Now, the opinions written on the subject natter on about absolute separation of church and state, and they are quite probably sincere. The fact is, however, that the church has never been barred from the affairs of state. And that is the issue at hand at this moment.

Is the U.S. a Christian nation? Yes indeed it is, because while religion is protected from the government, the government is completely vulnerable to religion. And the predominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity.

William D. Tallman

At the time the Declaration of Independence was written and in the post Revolutionary War period the U.S. would have been considered a Christian nation in spite of the Tripoli treaty (written to alleviate takeover concerns of a Muslim nation) and isolated comments by the Founders. For every quote by a Founder that seems to counter that concept (not a Christian nation) a quote supporting the Christian character of our country can be found.

Based on what I've read 90% or more of the Colonial population identified with some form of Christianity. The Bible was used almost universally in education (history, English, morality, etc.). The concern of the 1st Amendment was the establishment of a state CHURCH and the protection of the right to worship for all of the various sects of Christianity. The "religious test" wasn't a religious test regarding Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. but a test regarding which sect of Christianity a particular individual identified with.

It is a mistake to transpose our 21st pluralistic view of religious freedom onto those living in Colonial America. They did not share that view, even less then they did the concept of racial freedom, which at the time the nation was actually struggling with. This same struggle did not exist with respect to developing a pluralistic view of religion.

Quotes like these are always good for this sort of topic.

John Adams "It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand ... if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." (June 21, 1776)

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.posted by lepidopteryx

Gen 17:15-21

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
KJV

The key verse is 21. I hope this point will be made.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

America is definitely not a Christian nation. I would like to point out the fact that people settled in America for many reasons, including religious freedom. Also, the first amendment gives everyone religious freedom, and prohibits congress from establishing one religion over another. "In god we trust" only became our national motto during the red scare. To me, it is absurd that any person can hope to label a diverse and multicultural nation like America as "Christian." Another person's religion is their own personal choice, and should not affect others. Religion is a great thing, but many people use it as a guise to promote racism and their own personal agendas. Thus, America is NOT a Christian nation, but a religiously varied country with people off all faiths living together. (hopefully in harmony)

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

David :
You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

I think Christians live in America alot of them. I don't know if I would say "America is a Christian nation" or not? Is all of America Christ like? I do believe Christians should have a right to practice there faith as I believe all religions should and no one should stop that.

Rev JD, you're out of luck. I'm American, not Christian, not remotely interested in converting.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

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God, I hope not. Christians have a colorful history of pain, torture, and death.

Is America a Christian Nation? The answer could be found last night in New Hampshire:

During the 30-second lightning round at Dartmouth College, moderator Tim Russert of NBC News asked all the Democratic candidates about their favorite Bible verse.

-Joe Biden: Christ's warning about the Pharisees from the gospel according to John.

-Hillary Clinton: The golden rule from the gospel according to Luke.

-Chris Dodd: The parable of the Good Samaritan from Luke.

-John Edwards: Christ's admonition to help the least among us from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Mike Gravel: Love as the most important value, from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

-Dennis Kucinich: St. Francis's prayer to make us instruments of peace.

-Barack Obama: Sermon on the Mount from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Bill Richardson: Sermon on the Mount from Matthew.

JEANIE:
**I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that.**

So persecution of minority groups is okay with you?

**I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.**

Well, I guess that answers my question. Or were you perhaps referring to loud-mouthed dangerous factions like those led by Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Don Wildmon, James Dobson, and their ilk?

Your site is amaizing. Can I share some resources with you? notem6715

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

"Is America a 'Christian Nation'?"

We are about to find out..

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Thanks for the special work and information! notem6715

We has the most advance armed force with weapons that can destroy the planet many times over. Preemp Iraq because of "WMD that none was found". Capitalist, materialist people that controlling more than two third of the world wealth ,consuming tons of the resouces and polluting the planet is a Christian nation alright. Not only so but I say we are little God ourself who set rules on others and when die want to go to heaven too. LOL.

The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 - approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote.

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11

There you have it ... our founders were unanimous in maintaining that the Government of the United States of America "is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Of course modern day relgious nuts will disagree. Perhaps they should all move to Iran where religion IS the basis of government.

The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 - approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote.

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11

There you have it ... our founders were unanimous in maintaining that the Government of the United States of America "is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Of course modern day relgious nuts will disagree. Perhaps they should all move to Iran where religion IS the basis of government.

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Bob, what you think about this?

America is a very Christian nation when it suits it. Otherwise it is not. Either way, here's a more important question: Is America a good nation? Erm... no.

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America is a Christian nation in the same way that America is a white nation: simply by majority. Who rules America? The people, not God. And anyone who thinks that religious pluralism is a Christian tenet is ignorant of both the Bible and history.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, we are not trying to kill you. I do however, pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, we are not trying to kill you. I do however, pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

I believe God himself intended for all to have choice. Either you live Christ like, or you dont. Many call themselves Christains, but aren`t. We were not intended to waste time judging each other, bikkering and complaining about these subjects. Rather, we (Christains) are intended to pick up our cross and stand strong to Gods Word, not our words. God said Judge not, unless you be judged. Only you can decide what you are. I challenge those who believe themseves to be true Christains, to stand by Gods Word, not personal oppinions. To those who aren`t Christains, I pray you may find the truth within the bible and prayer before you find out when you die and God himself turns his back on you. That is all I can, or would want to do. As for America? We cant take her with us when were gone. There are plenty of people who are trying to take her from you, me, and ANYBODY now. We should be UNITED to defend her together reguardless of our "personal beliefs" while were here.

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Let's hope not! There are of course people here who profess to be christians, although those in Washington who are runnig the country don't seem very christ like. As a secular humanist/free-thinker I believe people are good in spite of religion not because of it.

I believe it is in a unique way. America's democracy and general toleration are facets of its heritage as a mainline Protestant culture of northwestern European origin. Britain and the Netherlands in particular were the first to entrench toleration of multiple Protestant sects in order to pursue internal peace, and that spread to America (as well as British dominions), and ultimately came to include Roman Catholics and Jews.

Unfortunately, with the increase in "evangelical" Christianity and jihadist Islam, the issue has become, should one tolerate the intolerant?

At the first it was the land of the free. Then it was designed as a Christian nation. In time, it becomes a colourful stripes of Union Jack.

Now, it has pockets of rainbow nations.

Unfortunately, the heart of the nation is controlled by a puppet.

At times the nation turns into a big ugly machine that roars in hunger for sticky black bitumen which in turn sends a handful of men and women in black suit scurrying for deals to secure more bitumen.

This vulnerability is exploited by the dark force that has been fanning a make belief superior nation, which has been dictating the hand that has power of the joystick.

A few of those men a make belief superior nation for the next move willingly or unwillingly. Too bad that some of them don't even know that they are answering to the same old guy.

USA is the land of the faithful that has lost faith in GOD and fall prey to the devil's game.

Malachi 3:15
So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up; They even tempt God and go free.’”

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

It is a Jewish-Israel nation.

Israel Lobby rules U.S. government.

Wake up America, you've been taken over...FROM WITHIN.

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/

GEORGE :
**Obviously christianity is the dominant religion by ethnicity in the USA.**

Huh? Christianity is an ethnicity?

**However, separation of church and state in its original meaning, that is meaning that the state Cannot tell you what to believe and religious figures cannot dictate to the state what to do, has been a KEY part of American democracy from the beginning.**

Right on. So we need to keep religion out of government functions.

**I dont think the current battle between the religious right and the areligious however is in the spirit of this at all!!! You should not HAVE to pray in a school but some idiot should not throw you out of school for professing your faith in a peaceful manner either. It SHOULD be ok to discuss faith, including the worship of a Coke can if you like, in school and a school library SHOULD include some books discussing the traditional religions such as christianity, islam, judaishm, taoism, hinduism, etc.**

I agree with you up to a point here. If kids want to compare religions at reces amongst themselves, fine. I have no issue with kids wearing religious jewelry, head coverings, or WWJD t-shirts.
School libraries should have books avaiable on as many subjects as possible, including various religions.
But I don't think that religion needs to be addressed as a classroom topic, and I absolutley draw the line at outside organizations such as the Gideons coming on campus to evangelize. I wouldn't give a Christian kid a copy of "The Spiral Dance" without the parents' permission, and I don't want my Pagan child coming home with a New Testament that some stranger gave her without my permission.

**Creationism should NOT be taught as science but the evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes in a free liberal organized fashion to encourage thought in school.**

Evolution isn't really debated in scientific communities - some of the more nebulous details and mechanisms of it are, but not its overall validity. Creationism is religion, pure and simple, and has no place in a public school.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

GEORGE - "evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes" Verging off topic, I know, but that statement should be addressed.

There are no 'scientific' debates about evolution, in general or in the large, being the reason that the biological world is as it is. There are plenty of scientific debates regarding aspects of evolution (puncuated equilibrium, etc.) but many of those are beyond the scope of primary/secondary school science. Similar debates can be found in other areas of science (e.g. physics - string, brane theories,etc.) that may have profound consequences but do not alter the basic landscape of the subject in question. However, there are folks (Velikovsky, etc.) who've made claims the regarding inadequacy of physics and proferred their hypotheses. But as they've never passed scientific muster, we don't hold the 'physics debate' in science classes either.

Science students should be taught science. Science is not a democracy where all ideas get equal time and get the honor of the title of 'theory'. It's a meritocracy, where the ideas and theories that produce the best objective explanations and provide the most consistent, usable results survive. When creationism and 'intelligent design' can pass the same evidentiary muster that evolution already has then we'll have reason for a debate regarding the science. Until then, students could certainly discuss this in a "Contemporary Issues" or "Science and Society" class, but not Biology 101.

Obviously christianity is the dominant religion by ethnicity in the USA. However, separation of church and state in its original meaning, that is meaning that the state Cannot tell you what to believe and religious figures cannot dictate to the state what to do, has been a KEY part of American democracy from the beginning.

I dont think the current battle between the religious right and the areligious however is in the spirit of this at all!!! You should not HAVE to pray in a school but some idiot should not throw you out of school for professing your faith in a peaceful manner either. It SHOULD be ok to discuss faith, including the worship of a Coke can if you like, in school and a school library SHOULD include some books discussing the traditional religions such as christianity, islam, judaishm, taoism, hinduism, etc. Creationism should NOT be taught as science but the evolution debate SHOULD be held in Science classes in a free liberal organized fashion to encourage thought in school. Again, you Americans are LOSING the power of your system. Stop the control freaks and take your country BACk before its too late!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think, that the debate is leading to a new generation of ignorant americans. That is not good. Discussion is one of the things they were talking about when they said give me liberty or give me death.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

I am appalled by the idea that this is "a Christian nation." It almost always comes from the most backward segment of the population or those who pander to them. I am a strict-separationist and trust that the framers of the Constitution were right to limit the Taliban-like grasping of that segment of the American people.

My grandparents arrived here 102 years ago on a boat from Antwerp after going across their native Russia to find a country where it was safe to be Jewish. For all the 65 years of my life, I felt safe despite people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin that the secular orientation of the country would protect my right to be Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist or anything else my conscience told me to be.

Then the religious right began its rise and I imagined crosses burning on lawns again. All of us who believe in the Constitution have to step up and make sure that the current administration and its fellow-travelers don't yank the secular base of the country away from us. We have to make sure that they don't move in on our safety. Jews, non-radical Christians (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. etc.) Muslims and others, including atheists, have to make common cause against people like the minister who asked God to curse Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

The American government is officially secular by definition.

The First Amendment to the Constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The framers of the Constitution, irrespective of their personal beliefs, knew their history well and knew the perils of combining religious belief, which deals in immaterial (and inherently unprovable) aspects of life, with the VERY material power of government.

Basing real-world policy decisions on religious precepts (as we Americans have seen in recent years) can have disastrous consequences.

The framers intended to keep religion and government officially separate for this reason and to ensure the right of all Americans practice the religion of their choosing, or none at all. Many of the earliest Europeans who came to the Americas did so for religious freedom.

A majority of Americans are Christians, but not in the sense intended by the people who argue that we are a "Christian nation." The people who make this claim are nearly always Evangelical Protestants who mean only their own sect when they speak of "Christians."

I would say that the Founders were Gnostic Christians. They obviously liked Jesus, despised the old testament and distrusted the words of the apostles, and had contempt for the divine right of Kings. Gnostic Christians were Deists too. So yes, we are a Gnostic Christian nation.

George Rivera:

**Are we a Christian nation? No, we are a Judeo Christian Nation. God is the God of the Isrealites. Jesus Christ was a Jew. I am a follower of Jesus, so that makes me a Judeo Christian. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, I have contributed to it, I have defended it, and I have bled for it. It is mine.**

I am a Pagan. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, and I have contributed to it. I was never eligible to fight for it in the military, due to a birth defect. But I have fought for it in other ways - including frequent badgering of my local, state, and federal government officials to do that which is right. But there have been and still are many Pagans who have fought and bled and are still fighting and bleeding for it. It is ours as much as it is yours.

**Judeo Christians have done the same for hundreds of years here. All the world knows it, and hates us for it. Why do you still debate it?**

So have many people of many other faiths. Don't believe me? Look at the grave markers in a military cemetary and tell me how many different religious emblems you see. And we continue to debate it because people like you continue to insist that you own it.

Agreed with most above that this is a complex question that is not particularly amenable to a "yes" or "no" answer.

From the historical perspective: Yes, most of the founding fathers were Christian although most of them felt agreed that a secular form of government was preferable to a theocracy. They were also quite aware that many of the original European settlers came here to escape religious persecution (the Puritans, the Quakers, etc.) Hence the freedom of religious expression which affirms religious pluralism but also protects the right to religious expression (to the chagrin of radical athiests).

Today, a similar situation exists. The vast majority of Americans self-identify as Christians. Yet most of these people discard Christian principles such as loving your neighbor. Clearly, secularism, not Christianity is the dominant cultural norm.

The fact that fundamentalists are the ones who argue in favor of a "Christian nation" is a paradox. These same people argue that only those who subscribe to their particular orthodoxy are truly Christian. According to fundamentalist pigs, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mainline Protestants are not true Christians. This narrow fundamentalist definition of Christianity would make the vast majority of Americans "non-Christian."

The debate will go on until just before people stand in judgement before God, and are cast into hell for their lives of unbelief.
I am a combat veteran, of over two years of people I never did anything to but desire to help, trying to kill me. They killed so many of my friends that I stoppped having friends. I withdrew, I became silent, speaking only when I had to. I did not want to hurt any more. I became a hell bent soldier, and a I became a cantankerous old man at 22. I have seen so many wounded and dead. Theirs was always, without fail, a full memorial service, and it was never an athiest, or secular one. Everyone showed up, not because they wanted to, but because they wanted to get right with God before their options ran out. There is nothing that binds a person more to God than having their friends nearly vaporized, but not quite. There has to be just enough of them left to compare themselves to, to scare their independence out of them.
There is something that mercilessly reveals mortality to combat soldiers. They can see death, they can smell it, sometime taste it too. Death snaps at them daily with a full set of murderous teeth, but doesn't quite seem to get a good bite at their lives until it does. I have heard the bravest, most boisterous boys,( we knew we were boys), and men, screaming, wailing, and moaning, " I don't want to die! I am not ready to die... Please don't let me die! Please don't let me die, or don't leave me here, stay with me, I don't want to die alone. Please pray for me." Men suddenly without any bravado at all. I comforted them to the extent I could. I prayed for them, but a broken body hurts alot, and prayer can't stop the pain of a severely damaged body. I would tell them, I am not leaving you, even though I knew that as soon as the medevac came in, they would be gone, and I would most likely never see them again. Bedlieve what I am telling you, it is heart renting. Years later my heart still hurts, and sometimes I even cry when I think of them. How could they have been prepared for death unless they had been prepared to meet their end when life was good? I'll tell you how. Those who believed died in peace. They believed in God, and when their time came, they went in peace. They would comfort me, "Hey man, what are you crying about? I'm the one who's hit right? It's okay, man, I 'll be alright. I dopn't want you to see me go; or you take care of yourself so you don't end up like me." God makes alot of difference in how peaceably, and tenderly we live, and how graciously we die.

Athiests, and others who are proud to claim God doesn't exist, or minimize Him make me laugh. I have seen many people injured as a civilian, some dead ones too, and stood around at their funerals while their athiest kin and friends talked about how good he or she had been, and among the last words said over them were, "May they rest in peace. May God have mercy on their souls." Well, there is no peace, nor will there be, for the unsaved. God? What God? I never heard anyone say, may Satan have mercy on their souls. What God? They did not believe in God, or any other gods, yet here they were at a cornerstone of their finite existence debating the existence of God, talking about things like final judgement, and other Christian topics.

What is there to be made of all this "Talk?" Fear of death. Death is to be feared when we don't know God. But to the true Christian, death has no meaning other than that we are going to meet our Lord, the creator, and redeemer of all things. "Earth is not my home. My time has come to go home." Death is a relief to a tired, sick or old, and pain ridden body.

There is a god alright. He is God. He is who He is, or as He said to Moses, "I am that I am." You do not have to believe today, but you all will in time because time is what we are all short of, and as it runs out we search for more answers fully aware that all the answers are theirs who believe.

Are we a Christian nation? No, we are a Judeo Christian Nation. God is the God of the Isrealites. Jesus Christ was a Jew. I am a follower of Jesus, so that makes me a Judeo Christian. And this is my country. I have lived at peace in it, I have contributed to it, I have defended it, and I have bled for it. It is mine. Judeo Christians have done the same for hundreds of years here. All the world knows it, and hates us for it. Why do you still debate it?

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

I "lost my marbles" if you will, trying to figure out the "Truth" by studying religion so that I could protect and help lead my children down a path that will help them avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into along the way before I gave birth to them. What I believe is just what my 93 year old Grandmother always told me -- (I should have listened and believed her--instead of taking a trip to the funny farm -- but the Truth is the world is filled with a lot of wounded and splintered souls). My Grandmother always said -- "Think for yourself." That's my religion and yes; I agree with Benjamin Franklin -- A Lighthouse is worth more than a church. Amen Brother it's time to stop the insanity and confusion!

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"Is America A 'Christian Nation'?"

Easy answer: No.

Please demonstrate in any of our founding documents where Christianity is mentioned at all. It is not. I would also ask where, in any of our founding documents, one might find anything relating to "Christian principles" either. You will not find any. In fact, can you even name a "Christian principle"?

So there are no Christian principles involved in the founding of our nation, nor even the slightest mention of Christianity in our most important documents. Now how are we a "Christian nation"?

We are nation in which Christianity is the predominant religion, we are in no way a "Christian nation".

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

By Christian nation, what do we mean by that? The U.S. has always been a very religious country. But as to whether it has ever been a Christian nation, well, that's debatable --- as we're debating here. Yes, some of the people who helped found the United States were deeply Godly people. But some of the framers of its laws and constitutions were also atheists and deists and so forth --- people who either did not believe in God at all or wanted a god tailored to their philosophy.

Right from its inception there has always been a strong battle between Christianity and paganism for the soul of America. But lately, despite the pervasive air of spirituality in the nation, secular paganism seems to be winning the battle hands down.

That a secularist like Rudy Giuliani seems on the brink of capturing the presidential candidacy of the party that for decades has been one of the strongest support pillars of religion in the nation is proof that it is no longer a Christian nation --- if it ever was really one.

http://www.newsandpolicy.com/blog/2007/08/giuliani-resilient-frontrunner.html

America is, and has always been, a Christian nation. More specifically, a anglo-protestant nation. This is not to say that the United States lives up to "Christian Values" or any other moral code. But nobody can deny the strong influence of the Christian faith on the formation of the country. Every president of the United States was a Protestant (excluding Kennedy and the uproar that occurred when a Catholic was elected). The founding fathers made it clear that the government could not establish a state religion or force anybody to a test to a common religious creed. There is a reason the government doesn't work on Sundays, that many states have laws prohibiting the sale of alcohol on Sundays. There is no Church of the United States, but to say that the United States is secular goes a bit far. We swear oaths on the Bible, to include the president and justices of the supreme court(again when somebody tried using the Koran (Quran) ANGRY Americans). I am not advocating the "Christian position", and certainly not the born-again position. But the United States and it sense of morality have strong Christian leanings.

Something to ponder from a French guest of the USA.

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great". Alexis de Tocqueville.

As an atheist and a US citizen, I can easily say that the US isn't just a Christian nation. I have the same freedoms of speech, press, to vote, etc. as those who identify themselves as Christian (or Muslim or Jewish or Pagan or Hindu whatever). I am grateful to live in a country where there is no established religion and I can be religion-free without worrying about being arrested or detained. I've never felt pressured by my government to convert to a specific religion, and though comments invoking the supernatural in politics do irk me, I've never felt that my public policy options are limited by my lack of religious belief. I figure by remaining an active citizen, I can help keep those freedoms open for everyone, regardless of their religious views (or lack thereof).

As an atheist and a US citizen, I can easily say that the US isn't just a Christian nation. I have the same freedoms of speech, press, to vote, etc. as those who identify themselves as Christian (or Muslim or Jewish or Pagan or Hindu whatever). I am grateful to live in a country where there is no established religion and I can be religion-free without worrying about being arrested or detained. I've never felt pressured by my government to convert to a specific religion, and though comments invoking the supernatural in politics do irk me, I've never felt that my public policy options are limited by my lack of religious belief. I figure by remaining an active citizen, I can help keep those freedoms open for everyone, regardless of their religious views (or lack thereof).

Is not and hopefully will never be a christian nation, but remain a secular nation.

I like the founding father's to speak for themselves.
US Treaty of Tripoli
-- Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

It is the ultimate in hubris to believe that God needs this to be a Christian nation. Why do I say that? There are certain people who believe that God needs us to win some sort of cosmic popularity contest.

Hogwash.

What God needs from us is to treat his children how he would treat them, both individually and collectively.

If you want this to be a Christian nation, shut your pie hole and feed the poor.

Ray,
No sweat. Happens in the best of families.

Namaste.

my bad lep......I thought the ignorant lines were yours, re-direct it to anoni...its late, I've been working all day, sorry. =)

lepidopteryx:

your post is a prime example of why you will never be considered intelligent, but will always be a prime choice for office by the sheep. The point of the fact is....the people who put it on our money never had the legal right to do so....why leave the country? I like the constitution, its people like you that are destroying it, I suggest you leave...peddle you ignorance and intolerance elsewhere

Anon: First of all, grow the balls to post a name. Differentiate yourself from all the other Anonymi.

**"Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?"

-Because of people's rights! Not everyone believes in christianity and they knew that. They were giving people rights, not like today, trying to limit those rights or take them away.**

And yet you would have your religion incorporated into the government. The founders would nothave approved.
****
**"What place does God on have on anyway"

-Thats not the question. Its just the simple fact that its on there. Its American currency.. They put it on there because we were a "nation.. under God" but now its to the point where you can't even say you believe in God without being jumped on by atheists or muslims..**

It's a damn good question. If I took a pen and wrote in "dess" at the end of "One nation under God" I'm willing to bet that you'd have a cow, accuse me of defacing government property, and refuse to take my money.

***

**-Can I have the proof to back the "only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless communists""**

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/PledgeHistory.htm

****
**"Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago."

-I dont know the date right off the top of my head but it doesn't matter when it was put in there. It was put in there for a reason. Leave it. If you have a problem with it. Then don't say. Go to another country for all I care. This is/was a christian country. And it should stay that way!**

Lots of bad legislation was enacted for reasons that I'm sure seemed good at the time: Anti-miscegenation laws, Prohibition, the Dred Scott decision come to mind.
And I'm not going anywhere. I am not Christian, have no intention of ever becoming one, And this is MY country too. Whether you like it or not, there is no religious test for citizenship, and I am just as much a citizen as you are.

*****
**"And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.:

- It was just an example that our rights are being taken away. Pretty soon our right to believe in God will be taken away too.**

Please explain to me how a government agency can change what you believe.

"The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation."

This is patently false.

"But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will."

The irony is that the original pledge (written by a Baptist minister no less) did not contain the words "under God". That was only added in the 50s when we had to prove we were better than those Godless commies.

My own opinion is that the current version is completely unconstitutional, but hey, I'm not a lawyer. :)

"But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years?"

Because it never should have been added in the first place? Incidentally, "In God we Trust" has only appeared on all coins since 1938 (off and on before that), and on paper money since 1957. Hundreds of years?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2006/12/is_america_a_christian_nation/comments.html

Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?
/quote

Those Christians are casually and unrepentantly bearing false witness in violation of the Ten Suggestions. America isn't a Christian Nation[tm]. It never was set up to be as the Founding Fathers were well aware of the inhumanities and injustices when superstition rules. The writings of several of the Founding Fathers, as well as Article 11 of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli ratified by Congress and signed by the President flat states the fact.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2006/12/is_america_a_christian_nation/comments.html

Is America A 'Christian Nation'?

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?
/quote

Those Christians are casually and unrepentantly bearing false witness in violation of the Ten Suggestions. America isn't a Christian Nation[tm]. It never was set up to be as the Founding Fathers were well aware of the inhumanities and injustices when superstition rules. The writings of several of the Founding Fathers, as well as Article 11 of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli ratified by Congress and signed by the President flat states the fact.

Who cares? Why does it matter? Like another poster said, the founders were wig wearing slave owners. The extraordinary efforts science has gone thru to find the truth in the universe is mostly ignored by religion. Implications of the facts are not fully understood by a majority of leaders (with religious beliefs) today. Time to dismiss them from influence of our laws and social engineering. As long as science keeps pushing and starts EXPLAINING better, the fantasy of all religion will erode. The framers of our constitution were smart guys for their time, but have nothing on the intelligence of people today. Good upstanding Agnostics. Pillars of truth. It's time our country start acting like it from top down. Time to wring out that water in the sponge, it getting kind of stale. There is nothing now or ever has been, or ever will be mystical, divine or supernatural in the world we live. When you die, you die. Time ends for you. Just like it was before you were born. People know it, it's a fact we all know, but some choose to ignore. There are people that honestly believe that some old fools 2 to 3 thousand years ago can account for the Billions and Billions of years of the Universe. Talk about too little too late in the field of psychiatry (if only them guys had meds). If there is a supreme being, we little tiny little people out on the spiral arm of a middle aged galaxy in the neighborhood of billions and billions of other galaxies will never be able to "define" it. But we must still support science, if to do nothing more that to make LIFE better for our children. Not to be under the influence of leadership with a fantasy to grind.

There is only right and wrong. And while your still here with us experiencing "time", we should all sort it out. Allot of wrongs are not really wrong. Not when you break it down. And allot of rights are not really right.

The ONLY tool we have to do this is to VOTE. The mechanism is there. We can all enjoy a clear, transparent, powerful, religiously untainted government. A true example for the world.

America is by our constitution a religiously neutral nation. A lot of people would try to change this and institutionalize Christianity. I hope that never happens because putting religion in the background is exactly what has made America the great country that it is. Could it be better. Sure, but religion would only take us backwards.

To the founding fathers, America was decidedly NOT a Christian nation. Many of them (or their ancestors) had come to America precisely because the Christian nations of Europe had persecuted them (or their ancestors).

George Washington never took communion. While he attended many Christian church services, it would seem from the context that he did so to humor his wife, Martha, who was certainly a believing Christian.

Both John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were Unitarians, totally disbelieving that Jesus was in any way divine. Jefferson selected the wise sayings of Jesus and created the Jefferson Bible, a book which excluded anything supernatural.

The Sentate ratified, and Adams signed, the Treaty of Tripoli which declared that "The United States is in no way founded upon the principles of Christianity" (or words to that effect). This was a legally-binding declaration by one of our earliest governments that America was not in any sense a Christian nation.

It was written in the early 19th century that of our first seven Presidents of the United States, not one was a devout Christian who took communion and followed the precepts ordinarily associated with Christianity. This was scandalous, but true. The scandalous part is what caused it to be written about with such contempt.

Later writers have attempted to re-characterize our founders as Christians. This is not only a lie, but does a great disservice to their memory as devout non-Christians who nonetheless did the good work of founding our nation. A nation which was, to them, decidedly not a Christian nation.

If you think its a christian nation, you are a complete moron.

Here is a direct quote from the terms of the treaty of Tripoli(look it up if you're ignorant), it was drafted in 1796 by George Washington and Signed by John Adams in 1797.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise...without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence." - Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason and firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" -Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." -James Madison

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches" -Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion religion that ever existed?" -John Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of eluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -John Adams

If you think its a christian nation, you are a complete moron.

Here is a direct quote from the terms of the treaty of Tripoli(look it up if you're ignorant), it was drafted in 1796 by George Washington and Signed by John Adams in 1797.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Careful...Murder of millions of American Indians, the enslavement, rape and murder of millions of Black Americans, total and complete miss treatment of Chinese Americans, degrading of women, the founding father's of the nation had slaves and raped the women because they could, in the 1870's one black man was murdered every day for 30 years running, in the 1920 "Black Sunday" 300 black Americans were murdered in one day in one city and the government looked the other way. The KKK, and other groups. That is part of American history, not all of it of course...there are Christans in American but this is not a Christan Nation!

Yes.

Lep-
"Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?"

-Because of people's rights! Not everyone believes in christianity and they knew that. They were giving people rights, not like today, trying to limit those rights or take them away.

****
"What place does God on have on anyway"

-Thats not the question. Its just the simple fact that its on there. Its American currency.. They put it on there because we were a "nation.. under God" but now its to the point where you can't even say you believe in God without being jumped on by atheists or muslims..

****
"Go right ahead. Surely you know that it was not added until the 1950's and then only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless Communists."

-Can I have the proof to back the "only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless communists""

****
"Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago."

-I dont know the date right off the top of my head but it doesn't matter when it was put in there. It was put in there for a reason. Leave it. If you have a problem with it. Then don't say. Go to another country for all I care. This is/was a christian country. And it should stay that way!

*****
"And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.:

- It was just an example that our rights are being taken away. Pretty soon our right to believe in God will be taken away too.

ANON:**It use to be. The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation.**
Then why did they not establish Christianity as the national religion in the Constitution when they were writing it?

**But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will.**
Go right ahead. Surely you know that it was not added until the 1950's and then only as an "in your face" gesture to the "godless Communists."

**They are even trying to remove "in God we trust" off of money. Its pathetic. It is not hurting a single person by having it on there.**
What place does God have on money anyway?

**If you dont believe, sorry, dont say it. But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years?**
Are you talking about money or the pledge here? God was only added to the pledge about 50 years ago.

**We dont have any "rights" anymore. they keep getting taken away from us. Like smoking. I am not a smoker but I dont think they should have to just totally stop. Pretty soon its gonna be illegal to smoke in your own damn house.**
And this has what to do with religion? For the record, I feel that if adults want to smoke tabacco, hashish, marijuana, or crack, until their lungs burst, they should have that right, as long as their habit does not endanger the health of others.

It use to be. The founding fathers made it perfectly clear they believed in God ( at least most did) and they wanted this to be a christian nation. But today its not as much so as it use to be. I mean hell we can't even say the "under God" in the pledge anymore. How stupid?! I still say it and i always will. They are even trying to remove "in God we trust" off of money. Its pathetic. It is not hurting a single person by having it on there. If you dont believe, sorry, dont say it. But why change something that has been here for hundreds of years? Why are we trying to change this country from what it use to be. This use to be a great country.. now look.. we are awful. I use to be proud to say I was American, but honestly, sometimes Im not. I mean yes right now I would still rather live here than other places. But how much longer will it last? I mean its to the point where almost everything causes a law suit. We dont have any "rights" anymore. they keep getting taken away from us. Like smoking. I am not a smoker but I dont think they should have to just totally stop. Pretty soon its gonna be illegal to smoke in your own damn house.
The USA has went down the drain. I know keeping God in it wont fix everything but I think it would make a big difference.
Why should God bless the USA if the USA doesn't bless God?!

What would be a christian country? maybe one that follows the teachings of Christ? What are those? Humility. Poverty. Compassion. Well... should I go on? America is Arrogant, Rich (and greedy), Pityless (highest rates for crime and imprisonment, lowest for money shared with the less fortunate)... You can try and elaborate further on the Gospell teachings, you'll find the same results: the US is THE pharisaic country on earth... Actually. I think america has been forgotten by Christ and is by no means christian...

This is in response to Mike.

I think that you need to become more aquainted with the ACTUAL teachins of Protestants and Catholics. Your view is very narrow. I know that everyone is entitled to their own oppinions, I know, but you are making some pretty fare fetched arguments there.

As a Catholic, and as a seminarian(a person who is studing for the priesthood), am very in tune with Catholic teachings, at least I would like to think so. We as Catholics, as a WHOLE dont think that Protestants are wrong, we think that we are different, and pray that one day we will be united under one faith.

Now to the question of is America a Christian Nation, I think it is, as a people we are, but in the government we are not. I think that our leaders of America, are not Christian in public, maybe in their private lives they are, but not in public.

I think that they need to start acting like Christians, what ever denomination they belong to, and quit acting immoral infront of the American people. What is happening, is that they are letting Politics get in the way of what is right and what is wrong. Sometimes standing up for something that is wrong, just to ge the vote, isnt the right reason to push for something even though they know that it wrong.

Just a few words for thought...

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion. Please disregard the comments written in my name. I have an internet stalker who writes offensive comments on the internet and then signs my name to them.
Thank You,
Rev. Dr. Jon Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion and I have a stalker by the name of John Berry of Lewiston Maine who writes offensive blogs and then signs my name to them. Please disregard these writings.
Sincerely,
Rev. Dr. Jon Mark Vermilion

My name is Jon Vermilion and I have a stalker by the name of John Berry of Lewiston Maine who writes offensive blogs and then signs my name to them. Please disregard these writings.
Sincerely,
Rev. Dr. Jon Mark Vermilion

Is America a Christian nation? I hope not!

Christianity is superb at projecting the belief that non-christians are WRONG. Heck they even think that any flavor of christianity that doesnt agree with theirs is wrong too. Protestants think Catholics are wrong. Catholics think Protestants are wong, The all know that muslims and buddist and agnostics and (oh my my) atheists are wrong wrong WRONG!

I guess you would have to say I am an agnostic, I dont believe there is proof either for or against god. And since people are falable (see I can't spell) then no one, not even me have the whole of the truth. We cannot know that which we cannot observe.

Please let this country be what I believe the founding fathers envisoned. A country where everyone is free to hold their own personal views. Unfortunatley that also includes the people that curse me to their version of perdition because I don't believe in their flavor of god. So be it.

Thing is, their freedom to communicate their beliefs ends where my freedom to disbelieve begins.

America is not a Christian nation, but is largely a nation of Christians. Big difference. With enough time, the slow spread of sanity and ebbing of religious irrationality, that too shall change. Hopefully.

Rev Vermillion, did you take all of your medication today?

Luke:
I'm with you, buddy.
I am a former Christian, now pagan. I did not forfeit my American citizenship when my religious beliefs changed.

I'm an atheist, and I pay my taxes, therefore it is not a Christian nation.

America is found on the 7 Noahicic laws ..

Not the 10 commandments.

This country is based on Judahic faith and is found by the masons of Ashkenazi descent.

Wake up america.

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/whytherise.htm

America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation that was founded for God to use to spread the Gospel of Jesus. Missionaries, myself among them, have gone out to all the earth from America. We have spread the gospel and saved people from the satanically inspired darkness of false religions (Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Etc.) and from heretical "Christian" sects (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, American Baptists, etc).

Before the coming of Christ for his children I believe that America will see a great revival.

We are in the sense that Christianity is the principal form of control in this nation. The beliefs are widely held but the actual practice is weak enough to make hypocrites of us all. Moral and ethical behavior should be practiced by conscious human beings simply because they are right, not due to theological manipulations based on fear of an afterlife.

Christian was an invention of the Roman government. Jesus was a revolutionary in as much as he believed truth and openness were the highest values, as oppossed by Caesar.
Paine was greatly influenced by the teachings of Jesus and the USA is molded around truth and openness. Christianity is another matter and the issue of homeland security in 325 ad. forced one universal religion which exceeds Jesus teachings.

Ridiculous to consider this nation "christian".

The government is completely ran by AIPAC, the news is anchored by ex-AIPAC members. We are a zionist controlled country, with mock tribute to Jesus Christ by most citizens who claim to be christians.

If we were truly a Christ seeking nation, we would not spend 450billion dollars a year in miliary build up, nor would we oppress the weak in the gates (middle-east...see Palestinian plot).

America is not a Christian nation. It's secular and modernistic and at the same time, like the UK, is bringing back ancient goddess worship and strange practices. The US has a nice veneer of Chrisitanity and there are many true born again beleivers in America that are probably the reason that we're still around. But the 25...50....75... and 90% numbers that are thrown around so loosely of how born agains there are are nonsense and absurd. The vast majority of "beleivers" are professors, strictly lip service and title wearing. The true "beleivers", those who live their lives according to the dictates of scripture and truly love, worship and serve the living God probably number in very small single digits indeed. Wish it were otherwise, but from where I sit and experienced, don't see it otherwise.

Jihadist..
I was referring to the American freedom of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.
There are currently muslims in our country trying to sue in our courts and impose their religious restrictions on all. One town is currently fighting against muslim taxi drivers who do not want to transport passengers who have alcohol or tobacco products in their grocery bags.
I say, if you are unable to perform the duties of your job, you need to find another line of work.
No offense, just truth. Hope this answers your question.
Peace!

Sailor:
Yours statement was instructive and nicely written.
Thanks,
Jim

Sailor:
Yours statement was instructive and nicely written.
Thanks,
Jim

As a Christian theologian, retired Naval officer, and student of history, I'd like to make a few comments on this question:

1. Many of the early colonists did come to America for the freedom to live as they chose, and this included for religious reasons. Some of these were avowedly Christian, others were Deists, and some were students of the Enlghtenment, which was a major contributor to the thought of the time. Enlightenment thought was founded on the human capacity for reason and logic, in distinction from doctrines revealed in religious texts.

2. Most of the colonies had a "preferred" or "required" religious group, usually some form of Christianity. After the first generation, almost every colony began to experience, on the one hand, the lessening of religious ferver on the part of children and grandchildren of colonists, and on the other, quarrels among those of other than the founders' preferred religious group. As people began to question which Christian group was "correct" issues of taxes paid for the establishment group grew up, and others saw the consequences of religious conflict. By the time of the Declaration and Constitution, preferred religious groups were on the way out, and by the last third of the 19th century, virtually every state constitution had been amended to remove such established religious groups.

3. The language about God in the founding documents: "Creator" "Providence", etc., are not specifically Christian terms. Jews and Muslims, and indeed people of most religious persuasions would not have problems with that terminology.

4. While "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution [it was written by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association], it does express the content of the founders' intentions. The Constitution provides only that there should be no test of religious office, and that there should be no establishment of religion on the part of the government.

5. The Federalist Papers, which were written to enlist support of the citizenry for the Constitution, nowhere uses Christian religion as an argument in favor of ratification. You'd think that if this was the case, they would have used it, wouldn't you? They used just about every other one.

6. AS one of the early posters pointed out, the Treaty of Tripoly, which was signed only about 10 years after the Constitution specifically states that America is NOT a Christian nation. What he did not say is that not only was this ratified by the Senate, but is one of only three treaties in our history ratified by a unanimous vote!

7. America has been welcoming citizens from all over the world over its history. As the religious faiths become more diverse, it becomes more of a challenge to find ways for all of us to live together, but I believe that we are much richer for the diversity and gifts that our fellow citizens bring. If we can learn to live together, to respect one another's faith and accord to everyone the right to observe their own faith (or to have none!), we will become a nation in accord with the "better angels of our nature." The sort of religious warfare that has broken out in so many countries of the world has been, largely, absent in our own country. And that is a unique gift that has been given to us, and which we can offer to the world. But those who try and drive wedges between us by trying to claim that certain religions are favored do not know their history, and are trying to drive us as a nation in a direction that is not helpful to us. If we lose the values that made us a wonderful experience in the ability of peoples to live together in peace, we will have lost something precious!

(I recommend a little book entitled "Separation of church and State; writings on a funadmental freedom by America's founders" published by Beacon Press, ed. by Forrest Church. Also the Book by Meachem "American Gospel", cited above)

Rev. Chris

the only christian who ever walked on earth was crucified by those who thought they were pleasing god

There were many Christian influences involved in the establishment of America and its constitution. Howevcer, our founding fathers never claimed this as a theocracy. Instead they allowed freedom of religion which permits people to choose to put the faith their in Jesus or select some other faith. During early periods in America history it appeared more moral and wholesome, but as time has progressed so has sin ( immorality and lawlessness). Almighty God is not the father of America, but it is satan who is the father of America. Scripture say your fruits shows who you are. Here are some of America's fruits -- abortion, political corruption, greed for money and power, the neglect of the poor, the abandonment of the elderly and an unjust war. Need I continue?

> Many will argue that yes the U.S. is a Christian nation as its founding laws (the Constitution) are based on the ten commandments.

Hmmm...so what laws do we have that command us to honor our fathers and mothers? Or not to covet? Or not to worship graven images lest three generations of our children be punished for the sins of their parents by a God who calls himself "jealous"? Is it illegal to take the Lord's name in vain?

Laws against killing, stealing, or bearing false witness predate Christianity and even the Ten Commandments, because they are based on common sense and survival of the human race.

You could argue that laws against adultery are based on that commandment, but the penalties are merely civil, so that weakens the argument. That leaves only the blue laws, and in most states they're pretty much a thing of the past.

I like to think that the America I grew up being proud and respectful of deserved that respect because it enshrined the ideals of reason and the Enlightenment. These are universal truths that transcend religion and offer hope to all members of the human race, regardless of how they choose to interpret divine matters. They need only to tolerate in others the privileges they seek for themselves.

A Christian nation is one which recognizes and respects the separation of two spheres; the secular and the spiritual. Unfortunately, it is the self proclaimed "Christians" of this country, who by their insistence on conflating the two spheres, make the nation an anti-Christian nation. This comes as no surprise. History is replete with this error. From the Papal States, to Calvin's Geneva, there have always been "Christians" who insist on destroying the distinction between the public/secular arena and the private/spiritual one. In short, no nation is a Christian one unless it understands and respects what it means to say "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's". Ironic? Yes. But also true.

NGORDON
I am not an American but a Muslim. Whatever gives you the idea that Muslim laws be added to the US Constitution and other Federal laws?

Anyway, the priciples of Islam - social equity, justice, individual dignity and communal peace is already practiced in the United States. What more can American Muslims wants? And freedom to practice their faith.

Bear in mind Muslims who migrated to the US did so the same way other non-Muslim migrants did - to find freedom and a better life too.

I know the christian right would like us all to believe this is a christian nation, and they are certianly the most obvious, and loudest(and most obnoxious) in proclaiming it. But when I look around me , in my community, in my travels (i've been to 44 of the 50 states)I see quite the opposite. I have friends who are are Pagans (i.e. wiccans, shamans,etc.) Muslim, christian, Baba lovers, Sikhs, Vedantist, Behai, agnostic, Jews, Southern baptists, mormons,Traditional Dine(i.e. navajo)and Hopi,etc. these are peple I know personally in one small town. I'm sick and tired of the powers (do i have to name names?)that be nattering on about the us being a christian nation as if the rest of us don't exist, pay taxes and raise children like them.
This is what has the potntial to make the us great if we don't let them ignore us or take away our rights. Anyway just my 2 cents...

I know the christian right would like us all to believe this is a christian nation, and they are certianly the most obvious, and loudest(and most obnoxious) in proclaiming it. But when I look around me , in my community, in my travels (i've been to 44 of the 50 states)I see quite the opposite. I have friends who are are Pagans (i.e. wiccans, shamans,etc.) Muslim, christian, Baba lovers, Sikhs, Vedantist, Behai, agnostic, Jews, Southern baptists, mormons,Traditional Dine(i.e. navajo)and Hopi,etc. these are peple I know personally in one small town. I'm sick and tired of the powers (do i have to name names?)that be nattering on about the us being a christian nation as if the rest of us don't exist, pay taxes and raise children like them.
This is what has the potntial to make the us great if we don't let them ignore us or take away our rights. Anyway just my 2 cents...

I think the premise that America is even a *nation* is flawed. More and more, we're less of a nation and more a collection of markets.

*Nationhood*, in my mind, presumes a *national* identity of some kind. Short of "recreation" or "irresponsibility" I can think of no uniting thread in the American conscience.

James R Taylor:
To answer your question and clarify my answer of 'Truth- America is a nation founded on Christian principles.'-----
In other words, no, America is not a Christian nation, but is a nation founded by men who knew of and honored God. Whether Christian, agnostic, or diest, all of our Founding Fathers knew and honoured God.
That said, I agree with you though that America has made great contributions; among which one is the 'no establishment of religion' clause. Those in America that are considering (even as I write this post) to add muslim law to our own would do well to remember what our First Amendment is all about......dangerous times are coming if this happens!

Many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but they also created laws which give American citizens the freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson wrote,
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Furthermore, a great percentage of American citizens are not Christians, and it would truly be undemocratic to force Christian views upon them or to say that they live in a "Christian" nation.

Some, many posts noted that the majority of Americans are Christians, so, why not call the US the Christian Republic of the United States?

Iran calls itself the Islamic Republic of Iran because the majority there are Muslims. By that premise, why not the Hindu Nation of India? The Buddhist Kingdom of Thailand?

Maurie

Orthodox agnostic? Can fundamentalist agnostic and reform agnostic and extremist agnostic be far behind.

And yes, you may have heard of the "Islamic bomb' - it prays five times a day, gives alms, believe in One God, fast during Ramadan and perform the Hajj. Before it meet up with the Christian bomb of course for a blast of a time.

Katie wrote:

"Do I believe that America was founded on Christianity? Yes, I do. Regardless of what most seem to believe, the idea of freedom itself is very much a Christian principle."

Tell that to the slaves of the Bible, the slaves that both the Old and New Testament fully approved of. Where was their freedom in the laws of the OT that told the Jews how to treat their slaves (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44), laws that were reinforced in the NT (Eph. 6:5; Timothy I, 6:1)?

You wouldn't be cherry picking the Bible, would you?

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

Although I am an Orthodox Agnostic, I do believe that the United States of America is a ¨Christian Nation. This is because something, a set of values called ¨Christianity¨ dominates our media and our government.
This is not to say that the people of this country, or the country itself, practices anything akin to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This country is mostly ¨cultural christians¨. . it´s the in-thing to be.
Therefore, unfortunately, it follows that we spend ¨christian¨dollars to send ¨christian¨bombs in ¨christian¨ airplanes, coordinated with ¨christian¨soldiers and ¨christian¨tanks and arms to kill ¨muslims¨ who don´t really practice the peaceful teachings of Mohammad.
Go Figure. Dangerous place to live with you thiests in charge.

I think it’s a very sad question and most of the answers here are even more distressing. I have to admit that a lot of what was said is true, but it is the spirit in which it is said that bothers me.

Do I believe that America was founded on Christianity? Yes, I do. Regardless of what most seem to believe, the idea of freedom itself is very much a Christian principle.

Has true Christianity been distorted? More often than not, yes. Mainstream society doesn't seem to have any idea of what true Christianity is. In fact, most Christians do not. But then, believers are often portrayed to be crazed zealots. And then there are those who have given Christians a bad name by rising to fame and falling to even greater notoriety.

Is America still a Christian nation? Collectively, I would have to be honest and say, 'No.' There is still a heavy Christian influence, but the rise in immorality and increase in anti-Christian feelings (shown very clearly in this discussion) point to a possibility that America could lose even this heritage. I personally believe that this will be a day we will all come to regret, and for that reason, I pray that it doesn't come in my lifetime. But then again, if I should someday have children, what kind of country will we be giving to them? Will our children have to suffer because of our choices?

I just finished Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation". It certainly made a lot of sense to me. We shouldn't be labelling this beautiful country as "Christian" or any other religious appelation. This is supposed to be a free country- no one really wants anyone else's religion to be in control. Most importantly, religion and politics should be kept separate.

Once we say we are anything, we limit ourselves to a past concept of what we are. If we say we are a Christian nation, then we have judged ourselves to be a limited mental construct and killed our ability to live in the freedom of possibility. So we really shouldn't say we are anything. We have laws, yes, but to define ourselves as being this or that is creating a prison full of cells with each cell angry at the other. Through our own judgment our country has become one huge prison full of angry people yelling at each other about who's cell is the better. The only way out of this prison is not to judge ourselves or the other. It is odd that a faith founded on non-judgment is the most judmental of all.

It should be-- welcoming all peoples to join us.

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When it is not, it fails as a nation.

When it is, it is the beacon of truth to the world.

When we turn toward what everyone else is doing or thinks... why should we expect to be any better?

It is not popular to say so, but that is where we came from and there is no bigotry in expecting a country to retain its original makeup by expecting assimilation to it.

Let everyone who will join us into our country and let everyone who does not agree understand this is what we are shooting for. If you are uncomfortable with that, there's always Holland. But don't try to make my nation Holland when it's already out there.

When we as a nation understand this, we as individuals can lead better lives and point others to that pursuit.

Make sense to anyone else but me?

Bueller?

[Before you call me a bigot, please look up the definition and ask yourself if it fits YOUR views on the issue...]

Arlene writes:

"For those who say that GOD is a GOD of vengence and punishment -- if your child does something wrong, do you correct him in the manner appropriate to what wrong he/she has done? or do you just look the other way?"

Hmmm. Let's see - according to the god of the Old Testament, the "appropriate" punishment for children talking back to their parents is DEATH. If your kid hits you, same punishment - DEATH:

Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

When did you kill your kids? Or were you fortunate enough that they never once talked back to you?

BTW - Jesus fully approves of such penalties for children:

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

We began as a Christian Nation --Not a "religious" nation. Unfortunately,like in the scriptures, we have become so "complacent" that we tend to accept other "non-Christian ideals" because they allow us to do whatever we want to do and think that we will not be held accountable for our actions -- thus, all these "new religious or non religious practices"...

For those who say that GOD is a GOD of vengence and punishment -- if your child does something wrong, do you correct him in the manner appropriate to what wrong he/she has done? or do you just look the other way? Our GOD Loves US enough to spank us, or to be politically correct, HE Loves US enough to correct us so that we can become a better person. GOD is REAL - not a Santa Claus -- HE is just.

I too feel as one said in another posting, as a person living here in America, if you are not happy with it then for goodness sake, stop being miserable -- LEAVE. I am sure you probably will be much happier in a 3rd World Country. Also, as in another posting, this America, founded on Christian truths, does not kill those un-born babies -- people who have no