Readers’ Responses to Our Question (405)

(a) Whatever channel, whatever time, whatever day in America, there are programmes of sex, greed, vulgarity and violence. (b) By the age of 16 EACH American child has seen over 50,000 violent deaths. (c)Video games, pornography are spawned by American Nation.(d) Wealth is loved, praised and killed, cheated, and lied for.

So am I right in concluding that America is not a Christian nation?

But of course there will be people who say "I don't watch it! I am a Christian. Not Me!"

Yeah?

Who ya kidding?

The real question is "are Christians really Christians?"

And the answer is what is Christianity? Is Christ really the center of Christianity or is it John, or perhaps Peter or maybe even Judah? Did they really mourn the death of the savior or was it just a mascarade, a fight between wolves for the control of people's fear/love of G-d?

America a Christian nation? Perhaps in the minds of some, but our actions show us to be far removed from any vestige of true Christianity. By the standards of any mainstream Christian faith, we are a nation of barbarians. We take from the poor so the rich can have more, start wars based on lies, fight with each other over obscenity on TV and radio while countless children go to bed hungry, and ignore our homeless. Prosperity gospel "Christians" live lives of incredible luxury while exhorting their followers to pony up more money for Jesus, and we jail a higher percentage of our citizens than any nation in the free world, and for that matter than many nations which we condemn for human rights abuses. Is hypocrisy considered Christian?

America is a nation founded on Christian principles, but separate from Christianity. Some right-wing conservatives believe in classifying America as a Christian nation and argues secular issues from a religious framework. I am a Christian Evangelical, but I cannot expect the laws that govern our society to be soley based on my religious convictions, for the same reason that I would do not want any other religious group dictating or passing laws in the name of their faith.

The term Secular has been tainted by many in the US to mean Atheism with out thinking about why government is Secular. Secular government is the removal of religion from state, the removal of religion from reason, logic, and law while respecting its existence outside of government. Secular Government protects the freedom of religion by not including it in the laws that govern the nation. Steven Waldman (speaking of faith NPR) could not be more incorrect when he mentions the founding fathers personal belief as proof that religion or the church should fuse with government. State written prayers, church/religion, or state belief systems violate the individuals right to believe as they choose. Steven Waldman should realize that a secular government keeps any singular form of religion from taking control of the government. A secular system of democracy is the cornerstone to the foundation of the amendments that allow citizens the right to believe in any or no religious system. The separation of church and state or the anti-establishment clause of the constitution allows Christian religious conservatives to practice their faith as they see fit. As well it protects the Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion, the freedom of religion does not mean that any one religion has a right to use the state as a tool for self-advancement. The argument that the separation is a gray area is a fallacy. A nation is either secular or theocratic. There is no gray area. The separation of church and state was not intended for the flourishing of any one religion. It was intended to keep all belief free by keeping the state out or belief. There is no mention of any sectarian definition of God used in any historical document of the US, nor should there be. Waldman should remember that there was no founding faith outlined in the declaration of independence or the constitution. I would ask Waldman who’s God does it refer to? Does religion truly make for improved civic or individual behavior patterns? Some of the worst elements of society have been devoutly religious, Hitler, the BTK killer, the leaders of the Christian and Muslim crusades, the witch hunters of Europe and early America, Bin Laden, and on and on it goes. Yes there was Stalin and Poll Pot but they pale in comparison to the religious violence perpetrated over the millennia. So I would argue that the founding fathers knew history well and that is why they created a secular government even while they may have been religious themselves. It is sad that many Christians hear the term religion and think only of themselves. How greedy and self-serving. We must realize that secularism rejects religion in government while recognizing its right to exist separate from government, in the privacy of your home and places of worship. It recognizes God given rights while not recognizing any particular organized religion.

There are people who abuse the term or concept “freedom of religion” without really understanding the true depth of the words involved. Lets start with the word religion. What is a religion: the belief, habit, ritual, thought, or faith? I believe all synonyms would apply to the definition of the word. Religion could be how I tie my shoes, my political ideas, my thoughts on science, or my feelings toward a particular brand name (in some cases consumerism qualify as religion). Many only argue that religion is strictly a word with a monopoly pertaining only to God or the Church. If you can make the argument that even atheistic approaches that of a religion; then one has to accept that my views on foreign policy or free trade qualify as a religion. Religion is a single or series of repeated behaviors and or thought. That is why we have a freedom of speech, privacy, and the freedom of religion within the constitution. All the concepts of the document from our revolutionary era uphold one another. They cannot exist without the other. These rights are all a form or relative or thought. They are all an attempt to protect the freedom of thought. Such wording of the constitution has to be interpreted with the full meaning of the word. For words are ideas, concepts, or theologies in and of themselves. Now think about the word freedom. I hope we all understand what freedom is. As well we should also think about what we do not have the freedom to do. There are many thoughts that are originated within Biblical religion that people do not have the right to do; consider many verses of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Revelation, and other books of the Bible. (I would hope we all know which verses they are) We do not have a total freedom for Biblical Church based religion. If we did, we would be living in a world of chaos, torture, and general madness including witch burnings, stoning, forced conversion, or be-headings. There are concepts in the secular world that are beliefs which are illegal they are the current laws on the books. Those laws are a record of what belief or thoughts you shall not hold. So beware when Biblical religion claims they have the power, the right, or the protection to conduct their actions when in conjunction with the government. There are some who would claim that Biblical religion has the freedom of religion as to fuse with the government or take on the responsibilities/functions of government with tax dollar support. My faith-based program is the issue and unconstitutionality of faith based programs and any vicarious use of those programs for the potential of converts via the heading of people to faith based services. The Church should function independently from government at all times. This serves the society in protection of the true freedom of religion, our freedom of thought.

2008-03-27, WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

Susan writes:

"The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population."

As Susan certainly knows, life on the Indian Reservations is as poor as that as some of the most impoverished developing nations on earth.
The EuroChristians began the genocide five hundred years ago, and if action is not taken quickly they will complete it soon.

Here are the words of Thomas Harriot (1560-1621), "Their opinions [the Algonkians] I have set down the more at large, that it may appear unto you that there is good hope there may be brought through discreet dealing and government to the embracing of the truth, and consequently to honor, obey, fear, and love us."

It strikes me as part of AmeriChristian moral insanity that this ongoing horror is all but ignored, this despite the fact that there are Indians who are continuing to struggle to have treaty obligations met. However, that is not enough. American Indians need to revive their civil rights movement. Outsiders can do very little on their own. We can come to reservations as volunteers; we can write our congressmen and senators as I have done to the point of exhaustion; we can teach oral Indian literature, Indian writers throughout the centuries, contemporary Indian writers, EuroChristian and AmeriChristian "discovery and exploration" narratives as I also do; and nothing will happen. Nothing.

I am reminded of a former Christian I once heard speak. "Christianity," she said. "My way or the highway. Christianity is America."

Without a strong leader, the Indians will continue to suffer the unspeakable. Even with a strong leader, they will have internal factions and the media to contend with. The media is remarkably selective in its reporting. Almost twenty years ago, I participated in a demonstration along with over 100,000 others concerning an incident known as the Crown Heights Riots. Nowhere was that demonstration reported. When Mel Gibson's garbage "The Passion of the Christ" was shown, antisemitc riots occurred throughout the US, but they were reported only locally. The country tells itself nothing happened. The antisemitic media is also the anti-Indian media. It is anti anything that threatens its specious self-identity and economic interests.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them to support you. Susan, if you continue to post on this web site, I can offer you an audience of twenty thousand, or at least I can promise to try if you can give me the name of people who can speak to your cause.

CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on Google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collapse the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why most of the Jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS but doesn’t fall and not couple of floors which after FEW HOURS fall like sand bag in FEW MINUTES on Google.( THE MAD BRUTAL USA ADMINISTRATION THINK world is buying that horrific joke done by themselves.)
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applied? See on Google!
4- On Google you will also find the twin towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor and their sound effects proving something else film captured???
5- On Google see Pentagon crash recording. Where is the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on Google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID LIKE HIM....right CCNL! NEXT TIME MAKE THE FIRE FIGHTERS DRESS OF THIS UNBURNED PASSPORT MATERIAL… good idea isn’t it??

AHMED FROM BAHRAIN :
Concerned
You have such flawed judgment. To avoid looking at your own mischief you keep harking at Muslims in general. Take a close look at your own self-righteous foreign policy before you accuse me of anything. In this day of internet, nothing is hidden except your head in the fake sand of your own thoughts.
Wake up and admit to the fact that your country has the biggest power and it is using it in a major negative way and your taxes pay for that.
Like a cracked record with its needle stuck, you hark on a 1000 years of injustices that I never had a part in but try to avoid what injustices you inflict today. Right now. Concern yourself with NOW.
This is my last post addressing your cracked record. You have moved from my radar.

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

State Public Health http://www.veromaxx.com/ Laboratory recorded Georgia's first confirmed case of influenza for the 2007-2008 flu season.

Thanks for the great post, Susan!

I was unaware of the insidious influences of Christianity in this country with respect to Native Americans. Especially outrageous is the fact the the much-vaunted "freedom of religion" clause of the First Amendment was violated in both spirit and letter by those purporting to be Christians, the same people who seem to be constantly whining that their First Amendment rights are being violated.

Occasionally one encounters an eye-opening post such as yours which provides a real-life perspective of a social issue as opposed to so many posts which are nothing but meaningless exercises in mental masturbation and which merely pile uninformed banality upon uninformed banality without offering anything new or insightful.

You have motivated me to familiarize myself with an area of American history of which most Americans seem to be totally ignorant.

I don't mean to pry, but are you by any chance in the education profession? I am merely curious. If you choose not to respond, I understand.

Thanks again!

Susanc:

The fact is that the United States of America effectively conquered virtually all of the "Native American" population. The U.S. has "graciously allowed" the vanquished to continue to subsist within its borders, as is the customary and usual practice in such cases. So far as I'm aware, the only exception to this situation is that of the northwestern Salish tribes, who struck a bargain with the U.S. in the form of a treaty, giving them the right to settle on Salish lands.

All the legal folderall that is the history of U.S. relationships with the "Indians" is window dressing; its purpose was to appease the conscience of those in the U.S. who "struggled" with their "Christian duty" in these regards. It may be reasonable to judge the truth of the religious "commitment" of the U.S. officials, a judgment that, on evidence, is harshly negative.

Note all the terms in quotations. I've no idea what the older inhabitants of this land called the land, or themselves. I've got a pretty good idea about the reality of the euphemisms, however: They are euphemisms for good reason; the terms are baldly deceitful.

No reasonable person would accuse you or your people of having anything in common with the Christian U.S. That you manage to have thrived in your state of bondage is a credit to you and yours. However, this is often the case with the vanquished, which is why conquerers always find it useful to be wary, lest the vanquished turn the tables and the conquerers find themselves outside their own gates!

For instance, Rome was very clear about this in the early part of the Empire, but failed in this regard with the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. The result is that it lost its supremacy not only to a subsequent religion, but to a variant of its own for a time! Arguably, Christianity is the major reason for the ambiguous state of "Native Americans" in the U.S.

Do not sully your people or their history with any comparison to that of Christianity, for doing so is a disservice and a dishonor.

William D. Tallman

I am a Reservation-born First American whose first language was a dialect of Athapascan. Many years ago I granted myself a two-year hiatus from my business during which time I "researched" Apache history and culture. I did this solely for my own edification. My research entailed reading hundreds of archived newspapers, church records, old army documents, municipal records, library collections, private document collections, treaties, Federal statutes, State laws and reservation histories in the southwest and in the Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora. Additionally, I had numerous conversations with several Apache elders in their own language. The oral histories were fascinating, though some events were apocryphal, I am sure. They were nonetheless interesting in that they presented a part of our history from a Native perspective.

Of particular interest to me was the official (read: government of the United States) treatment of American Indians, especially by official sprofessing to be good christians. This was of interest to me because of my personal experiences in the mission school where I was occasionally referred to as the "little heathen" because of my propensity to ask "uncomfortable" questions.

So, where does one begin with the treatment of American Indians by this "christian nation?"

Perhaps one could begin with the reference in the Declaration of Independence to those pesky "merciless Indian savages" who had the audacity to defend the lands they had lived on for thousands of years prior to the arrival of those benevolent European christians.

Then one could continue with the following:

-- The rather presumptuous Indian Proclamation of the First Continental Congress (1783) which states, "The United States in Congress assembled have the sole and exclusive right and power of regulating trade and managing all affairs with the Indians," a proclamation that set in place the precedent by which Natives were eventually denied religious freedom by the Federal Government;

-- The 1819 Indian Civilization Fund Act, the primary intent of which was -- with considerable support from "christian" organizations -- to create a fund to reform and "civilize" the Indian peoples in accordance with christian religio-cultural norms imposed upon them by the Federal Government;

-- The Annual Reports of the Federal Board of Commissioners of Indian Affairs from 1832 to 1934 which contain numerous references to the "christianization" of Natives as well as to measures taken to prohibit Natives from practicing their religions. The first report of the Board noted that its duties were "to educate the Indians in industry, the arts of civilization, and the principles of Christianity." The board was given joint control with the Secretary of the Interior over congressional funds appropriated for dealing with the Indian agencies. Christian missionaries of most major denominations were given government support for the founding of missions in conjunction with 73 Federal Agencies on Indian reservation lands;

-- The Indian Removal Act of 1832 which caused First Americans to be dislodged from lands that had been sacred to them for thousands of years.

-- The 1851 Indian Appropriations Act which, along with other laws, set in motion the establishment of the Reservation System, one of the purposes of which was to place Indians in concentration camps so that they could be more easily controlled while their land was being stolen;

-- The 1872 report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs which stated that agents from most Protestant denominations had been appointed "to assume charge of the intellectual and moral education of the Indians." By this time, Native children were being removed from their families, often by force, and shipped to christian (those "family values" folks) missionary schools where they were denied the rights to speak Native languages, wear Native clothing or practice any form of Native religion. Corporal punishment was the order of the day and sexual abuse of Native children at these schools good christians was not uncommon.

-- The Indian Religious Crimes Code developed in 1883 by Secretary of the Interior Henry Teller -- a professing christian -- as a means of prohibiting Native American ceremonial activities under pain of imprisonment;

-- The 1892 "Rules for Indian Courts" of the Commission of Indian Affairs which established a series of criminal offenses aimed at stamping out Native American religious practices;

-- Records of 19th-century Army tribunals convened to try Native Americans for a variety of crimes, including the practice of Native religions, frequently without the benefit of defense counsel and often without the right to call witnesses.

Because of the numerous federal and state statutes, laws, directives and edicts (the above are just a smattering), it is very obvious that the First Amendment to the Constitution did not apply to First Americans. But I suppose I should be grateful as the government deigned to make us citizens in 1924. In spite of the opposition of some "christian" sects.

A personal aside: As a child, I was technically prohibited by Federal law from participating in an event central to our culture, the Sunrise ceremony. In spite of this prohibition, my parents and clan held a secret abbreviated version of the ceremony for me.

Not until 1978 when the American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed in Congress (over the almost vehement objections of many "good christians") were American Indians permitted to once again practice their religions.

I could go on for hundreds of pages concerning this subject, but perhaps the above examples will serve as a starting point for anyone interested in the history of American Indians and the manner in which they were treated by a government that was heavily influenced by good christians. I have not even touched upon the enslavement of Native Americans (example: municipal records of Santa Fe reveal the presence of more than 600 Native slaves in 1886), the broken treaties or the numerous massacres of American Indians who made the mistake of defending their lands from foreign invaders nor have I touched upon the bible-based justifications and rationalizations for the theft by brutal force and subterfuge of the lands on which Indians had lived for so long. And I won't even go into such atrocities as the pubic scalps and tobacco pouches made from the breasts of Native women that were so proudly displayed by some European "christians."

America a Christian Nation? I am not sure just what is meant by that descriptor, but I would certainly hope that this country will never again become the nation of Christian Bigotry, Cruelty, Dishonesty and Exploitation experienced first-hand by me and my fellow First Americans.

In closing, I will leave you with a story, most likely apocryphal, that I find rather amusing:

Many years ago a mission preacher came to the Rez on his first assignment. After a few months, the locals gave him the honorific name, “Walking Eagle.” The Rev was very proud of his “injun” name and had it printed on the mission stationery and put on the sign in front of the mission. What he apparently never realized was that he was called “Walking Eagle” because he was so full of s--t that he couldn’t fly.

Of course the United States of America is a Christian nation. Just look around!

Was it founded as a Christian nation? Not especially, but the fact is that the majority of the population in the then British Colonies were advocates and members of some Christian sect. The assumption of most folk was that whatever colony they called home existed for some religious reason. Church membership was socially mandatory in some of the colonies, regarded as a social asset in others (just as it is today).

Now, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the 1st Amendment, and for good reason. Here's why: "Congress shall make no law regarding * establishment of religion..." What word does the asterisk replace? Is it 'the', or is it 'an'? The word modifies the meaning of 'establishment'.

'The' establishment can be construed as an action, where establishment is a verb form: The lexical authority of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary(OED), and it includes in branch II, "The action of establishing; the fact of being established". Arguably, this speaks to the denial of the government the right to establish a religion, ie, a state religion.

'An' establishment is better construed as objective, where establishment is a noun. This is the general sense given in the OED, and this has a very different connotation: an establishment of religion in this case is a church. What this means is that the government can make no law concerning an existing religious institution.

It turns out that the wording in the Constitution is "an establishment". What this does is to forbid the government from any power with regard religion, but it does not forbid a religion from having power in the government. Effectively, the state is held separate from the church, but the church is apparently assumed as an acceptable part of the state.

Now, the opinions written on the subject natter on about absolute separation of church and state, and they are quite probably sincere. The fact is, however, that the church has never been barred from the affairs of state. And that is the issue at hand at this moment.

Is the U.S. a Christian nation? Yes indeed it is, because while religion is protected from the government, the government is completely vulnerable to religion. And the predominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity.

William D. Tallman

At the time the Declaration of Independence was written and in the post Revolutionary War period the U.S. would have been considered a Christian nation in spite of the Tripoli treaty (written to alleviate takeover concerns of a Muslim nation) and isolated comments by the Founders. For every quote by a Founder that seems to counter that concept (not a Christian nation) a quote supporting the Christian character of our country can be found.

Based on what I've read 90% or more of the Colonial population identified with some form of Christianity. The Bible was used almost universally in education (history, English, morality, etc.). The concern of the 1st Amendment was the establishment of a state CHURCH and the protection of the right to worship for all of the various sects of Christianity. The "religious test" wasn't a religious test regarding Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. but a test regarding which sect of Christianity a particular individual identified with.

It is a mistake to transpose our 21st pluralistic view of religious freedom onto those living in Colonial America. They did not share that view, even less then they did the concept of racial freedom, which at the time the nation was actually struggling with. This same struggle did not exist with respect to developing a pluralistic view of religion.

Quotes like these are always good for this sort of topic.

John Adams "It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand ... if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." (June 21, 1776)

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

The "Barbary Treaty" aka "Treaty of Tripoly articall 11 "As the goverment of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

Signed by both houses without dissent and signed into law by President John Adams.

Freedom of religion was not a right to monopolize government by proxy of popular belief. It simply ment that goverment would not play favorites. If you want a government run on religion, go live in Iran.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

I did not know that the Creator spoke English. There was no English when Christ said whatever he said. Asd nothing was ever written down as Christ was an illiterate carpenter, just like his buddies. You know what I mean, credible sources and all that little stuff. And I don't think he knew any Latin or Greek for that matter.

So, all religion has a lot of innovative editorial material, if you get my drift. Let sleeping dogs lie. And get on with living.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.posted by lepidopteryx

Gen 17:15-21

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
KJV

The key verse is 21. I hope this point will be made.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

No, America is not a Christian nation. It is true that a large number of Americans consider themselves Christian. But to say that this group of people makes the US a Christian nation would be like saying the large number of people with brown hair make us a brunette nation. Does that make any sense? No.

We are a country with more rights than most- including the right to practice any religion freely, including Christianity, but also Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, atheism and any other religion you can come up with. Under our Constitution, we have the right to worship a stop sign if we feel like it. That is the great thing about the US, and we should take our rights more seriously.

America is definitely not a Christian nation. I would like to point out the fact that people settled in America for many reasons, including religious freedom. Also, the first amendment gives everyone religious freedom, and prohibits congress from establishing one religion over another. "In god we trust" only became our national motto during the red scare. To me, it is absurd that any person can hope to label a diverse and multicultural nation like America as "Christian." Another person's religion is their own personal choice, and should not affect others. Religion is a great thing, but many people use it as a guise to promote racism and their own personal agendas. Thus, America is NOT a Christian nation, but a religiously varied country with people off all faiths living together. (hopefully in harmony)

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

David :
You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

Um, "seed" refers to sperm - women don't have "seed."
"Abraham's seed" simply means that Abe was the baby-daddy. It says nothing about who the mother was.

No, America is not a Christian nation. The nation is its population. America is something else among all the word conjures and all that keeps contentous commentators quarreling over a dried up bone. Let's call it a place on the globe. Then, keep your thoughts on the people who make up the nation (hence the word itself). The population can be devided into classes of the religious persuasions that identify the people in each class. Very likely the largest class is of those who say they are Christian. Practice, observance of the rites and principles, have much to do with religion, but who wants to take on the job of finding what part of each class keeps to these features of each religion?

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

You forgot about Sarah? The promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. Issac is that not Abraham and Haggar rather, Abraham and Sarah.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

How the Jews switched the two names.

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."
Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."
That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13,
how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Summary

If you have a brain, use logic to deduce.
1. Genesis 17:10: covenant between God and Abraham's seeds.
2. Genesis 17:13 covenant shall be in your flesh (circumcision)
3. Genesis 16:16 Abraham's was 86 when he got Ismael
4. Genesis 17:24 Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
5. conclusion of above facts: Abraham's son Ishmael was 13 when Abraham was circumcised.
6. Genesis 21:5 Abraham was 100 when his son Isaac was born.

CONCLUSION During the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.
The crooks changed KJV Hebrews 11:17 from Ismael to Issac.

See how racism made you lie to GOD!
Changing God's words for worldly gains.

I think Christians live in America alot of them. I don't know if I would say "America is a Christian nation" or not? Is all of America Christ like? I do believe Christians should have a right to practice there faith as I believe all religions should and no one should stop that.

Rev JD, you're out of luck. I'm American, not Christian, not remotely interested in converting.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

all i can ay is that I hope this is still a christian nation. "If God be for me then who can be against me." "the nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell." God have mercy on us if we are not a christian nation. signed a praying christian and preacher.

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God, I hope not. Christians have a colorful history of pain, torture, and death.

Is America a Christian Nation? The answer could be found last night in New Hampshire:

During the 30-second lightning round at Dartmouth College, moderator Tim Russert of NBC News asked all the Democratic candidates about their favorite Bible verse.

-Joe Biden: Christ's warning about the Pharisees from the gospel according to John.

-Hillary Clinton: The golden rule from the gospel according to Luke.

-Chris Dodd: The parable of the Good Samaritan from Luke.

-John Edwards: Christ's admonition to help the least among us from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Mike Gravel: Love as the most important value, from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

-Dennis Kucinich: St. Francis's prayer to make us instruments of peace.

-Barack Obama: Sermon on the Mount from the gospel according to Matthew.

-Bill Richardson: Sermon on the Mount from Matthew.

JEANIE:
**I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that.**

So persecution of minority groups is okay with you?

**I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.**

Well, I guess that answers my question. Or were you perhaps referring to loud-mouthed dangerous factions like those led by Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Don Wildmon, James Dobson, and their ilk?

Your site is amaizing. Can I share some resources with you? notem6715

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

First, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus.

That said, I resent the idea that fundamentalists want to impose their version of Chrsitianity on me or anyone else. I will fight to protect my freedom of religious expression without government interference. I don't want the government to tell me or anyone else what faith to follow. The fundamentalists feel that only their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. This is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Jeanie, let's see, are you referring to the non-fundamentalist Christians who are always being insulted and hated by the fundamentalists?

"Is America a 'Christian Nation'?"

We are about to find out..

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

I am having my doubts. I think Christians remain the most insulted, berated group in the good old USA today...I thought only minority groups endured that. I do believe that there will be a religious war in this country in decades to come because of our excessive tolerance of loud mouthed, dangerous religious factions living amoung us and you all know who they are.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.

Let's see. Do we determine whether someone is a Christian by what they say, or what they do?

"By your works are ye known".

My Bible still contains the Golden Rule.
My Bible still says, "blessed are the peacemakers"
My Bible still says, "Love your enemies, and do good unto those who wish to do evil unto you."
My Bible still says, "live peaceably among all men"

How does America's scorecard look now? How is our witness as a "Christian" nation.

A COUNTRY cannot be Christian or nonChristian. God deals one-on-one with individual souls. He does not distinguish what flag they live under. America is a man-made entity. If you live 5 miles over the Canadian border, do you think God views you differently?

Even Israel is a country whose boundaries were drawn by men, not God. The Jewish people are the "apple of His eye", not the country of Israel.

This "Christian nation" thing is just a smokescreen for people with an agenda to force their views and beliefs on others. The New Great Commission for them is, "Go ye to the Supreme Court and try to change the behavior of, and take away choices from, lost people".

You want prayer in school? Good. Just don't say a word when little Mohammed whips out his prayer rug, and turns to Mecca. Don't believe in separation of church and state? Good. March on down to the revenue office and relinquish that tax-free status your church enjoys. We need that money for more bullets and bombs.

Christian nation? If you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk.