Readers’ Responses to Our Question (205)

Hi Friends!

Excellent site. It was pleasant to me.
give thanks
Herbert Nikolaus
berirtrerejas

I just started reading this forum and already have many Socratic questions for other readers. Why do people think we are finite? Why can't the body be in one place and the "mind/spirit" in another? How can someone be so arrogant as to believe that God is any one religion? At what point does a person go from believing in God to knowing God? I believe I know the answers to some and I do "know" the answers to others. Any opinions are welcomed! Your humble student.

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I believe that we have in us the capacity to believe in love, a love that corresponds to a promise that God believes in me. I am loved and can love in return, it is my free decision. Pascal tells of the benefits for belief and not loosing anything if there is no God in the end. This is the reasonable wager, are there any takers?

Anthony S.

Religion is what it is religion.
Us that have Faith in Relgion will be rewarded and those that don't will suffer.
Look at all that has happen lately in State & Government & Schools=no ruling for religion just against that why American & Leaders due to no religion=has mess up tremendously and we see it!
Wars within and over seas. Speak of sending more troops to continue a job that has been proven to be USELESS!
People need to wake up if Gov. felt they were winning=then why not invite their children in to fight the war!People wake up!

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to GOLFGOD,

J. Lennon was really a nice guy, and a fabulously gifted musician / songwriter. But within his lyrics for 'Imagine', he wasn't 'on to' anything, but he was defintely 'on something'... chemicals.

Dear Cayambe,

Faith is only as good as the object of faith. If you trust in that which is dying (you are dying) you cannot expect to have life beyond this life, only eternal judgment. If you trust in the eternal God (Jesus Christ) who is the source of life then you may have eternal life.

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

To Meacham & Quinn:

Please consider restricting the length of comments from respondents. Your site will attract more visitors if you can prevent the postings of long and pedantic theses by some.

You may want to look at the BBC's site which seeks readers/viewers opinions. Similar to what BBC does, I suggest that you restrict the length of responses to no more than a certain number of words. I suggest that 300 words be the maximum. Long peadantic babble detract much from a good site such as the one you have started. All the best!

To Meacham & Quinn:

Please consider restricting the length of comments from respondents. Your site will attract more visitors if you can prevent the postings of long and pedantic theses by some which detract from the utility of promoting healthy dialog.

You may want to look at the BBC's site which seeks readers/viewers opinions. Like that site, I suggest that you restrict the length of responses to no more than a certain number of words. I suggest that 300 words be the maximum. Long peadantic babble detract much from a good site such as the one you have started. All the best!

To Meacham and Quinn:

I would like to suggest that you reformat the comment window to restrict postings to no more than 200-300 words. Long dissertations bore and tire most surfers who neither have the time nor the patience to wade through pedantic and self-serving babble.

BBC seems to have perfected their feature seeking comments from readers. Please consider following BBC's format which limits the length of responses.

Otherwise, your site is a very worthwhile addition to those interested in the role of faith serving peace and humanity.

ALETHIA :

“Would you say that a globe had no maker or a GI Joe no designer?”
That is definitely a puzzle, I’m not quite sure of your meaning. But taking a “globe” to mean a small model of the planet earth showing countries and continents mapped over it, I would say that one or more humans made it. I would also put one or more humans at fault for the design of GI Joe.

“Would you say that morality is based on opinion and that reason finds it source in impersonal matter?”
About morality. The first thing I would say is that it is a local phenomena based on a common behavioral agreement by some collection of people. Morality may be based on reason, or religious teachings, or ideology (in any combination). The moral person holds to the agreements, the immoral person does not.

About reason. I’m not entirely sure I know exactly what you mean by “source” and “impersonal”. I’m persuaded that reason operates largely in brains, in brain matter, personal or otherwise. I have to put it that way because I don’t believe reason is just a human trait, but extends in one way or another throughout the animal world. I don’t have the foggiest idea how we reason, how our brain actually works. We have barely scratched the surface of this subject. At this point scientists are just delighted at being able to see which specific areas of the brain become active under specific inputs. But we really have no idea how signals are passed between areas, how images are stored (digital or analog, electrically or chemically), much less how conscious or unconscious logic is exercised. They are just not making progress fast enough. I would like to get at least a rudimentary idea how this thing between our ears works before I die. At the rate they are going I won’t make it.

“I am glad that I can look to a transcendent God for if I looked for life in that which is finite I would have a limited life.”
I can’t say that all life is limited since so many of us are still living. By the same token, I have never discovered, perceived, or sensed any life with the eternal attribute so I have no reason to expect same. To the extent that anticipating eternal life removes the unwelcome prospect of death, belief in an eternal transcendent God is of pragmatic benefit and comfort to the believer, whether it is actually true or not. My problem is that I just have no sense or awareness of anything like a transcendent God so I just have no reason to believe in it and every reason not too. Eventually, I too will die, and as near as I’ve been able to discern, dead is just that, dead-finito-acabado.

“Who or what is the object of your faith?”
I’m not persuaded I have a “faith”; I’m not sure what the word actually means in a religious context. When I was a lot younger in the Army, we jumped out of airplanes, something your mind naturally rebels at doing. Overcoming that rebellion takes faith, faith that your parachute will open, that it was properly packed by somebody you don’t even know. Still, there are reasons that justify that faith. The people who pack the chutes are randomly required to jump their own work. Different people pack the main chute and the reserve chute. You have seen hundreds of these things open properly before. Thus, by the time I have fully thought through the process, and weighed the probabilities, the faith required of me is not so very large. But as CNN was putting it tonight, “When Faiths Collide”, it seems to me that the word “Faith” is being used in place of the word “Religion”. In neither faith as I use it or faith as CNN is using it, does it make sense for faith to have an object. I am not quite sure what you are driving at here.

D.J. Fahey tells us:

How would you know something is evil if you didn't know what was good? You see?

Hi, D. J.,

If every thing I knew was good then I might not need a word for goodness -- maybe not until I needed to talk about something that was *better* than another. ISTM it's mainly when I find something evil that I need a word to distinguish good and evil in speaking about them. So yes, I agree that I need words to talk about the differences.

It seems we're not so far apart after all.

Ann O.

D.J. Fahey tells us:

How would you know something is evil if you didn't know what was good? You see?

Hi, D. J.,

If every thing I knew was good then I might not need a word for goodness -- maybe not until I needed to talk about something that was *better* than another. ISTM it's mainly when I find something evil that I need a word to distinguish good and evil in speaking about them. So yes, I agree that I need words to talk about the differences.

It seems we're not so far apart after all.

Ann O.

For Anne O.

Hello Ann o. Taste is a tactile response that is automatic. Like touch or an aroma. These are basic biological responses. We don't really have a choice in these perceptions.

The world and our place in it is so complex, that good and evil don't encompus all. Some aspects of life transcend good and evil. There are alot of grey areas in life. Good and evil sometimes, most times, are objective. They are such because we deem them as such. So one does depend on the other. I am not talking about longing for one or the other, I am talking about describing, or believing some to be one or the other. How would you know something is evil if you didn't know what was good? You see?

Hot and cold, dark or light and so on, are such because that is their physical properties at the moment. They are neither good nor evil, they just are.

Excesses are balanced by lessening, and deficiencies are balanced by adding what is missing, to acheive a perfect balance, or harmony.
This is seen throughout nature. Our trick is to maintain a balance in our lives. Not too fat, not too skinny, not to tense, and not too relaxed, or not too tired, and not overly energetic.....and so on. They really have nothing to do with good or evil.

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D.J. Fahey tells us:

"For Ann O;

Throughout Nature, there is a duality inherent in everything and everybody.
Why do we see good, to be good? How do we know what is good and what isn't? For one, we learn very quickly as children. We usually get a sense of what is good from our parents and teachers and religion. We learn what is good on our own, by trial and error. Good is also dictated by the social mores particular to the society in which we live"

Hi, D.J.,

Wouldn't you know that your mother's milk was good without tasting vinegar? I guess I'm saying that we have to know both independently to be able to contrast them.

Yes, we learn the consequences of our actions by experience, but we only take actions because we perceive something as either good or bad. And, yes, our parents and others point out what they think is good and bad. But for someone to tell you that bubble gum tastes good she doesn't have to tell you that something else tastes bad.

D.J.: Would there still be a need for God or the mystery of God, if it were not for the Devil?

ANN O.: Oh, I think definitely that we long for absolute unending goodness simply because we hope there is such a thing. Longing for good isn't the same thing as fleeing evil. In fact I don't think I believe in the Devil, though sometimes I wonder, when I see human actions such as genocide.

D.J.: think Lao Tsu is trying to demonstrate this by a litany of opposites:
hot and cold
dark and light
strong and weak
loud and soft.....etc.

ANN O.: I agree that they are opposites, but I don'nt think that *either* is evil in itself. It's destructive combinations of them that are evil. Doesn't his recognition of the relationships of yin and yang recognize that these combinations can be good? The trick is to leave room for both in the pattern!

ISTM that the theme of the value of harmony among differences which the Asians always emphasized is one of the themes that Western Christian philosophers and theologians need to reflect on more. What yields the harmony of differences rather than destruction of them both?

And isn't that one of the big themes that Sally is presenting us with? :-) Thanks, Sally.

Ann O.

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Organized religion is a business. Some sects are rackets. I grew up in the Episcopal Church and I know it is sexist and hypocrititcal. Money is more important than a woman who devotes years to Altar duty, training future altar guilds, mending linens, staying late to clean up after Christmas Service so the younger members can go home to be with their families.
I believe all must come to their own understanding of a divine being, but I have never found that in a church. I now believe I am an agnostic. My life experiences have led me to find more help outside of a church. The majesty of western sunsets and the serenity of the mountains are more inspiring than ritualistic churches where the people go through motions, but don't seem be inspired. They attend devoutly Sunday after Sunday, but don't know the order of service, never hear the announcements, but pay more attention to the fellow worshipers.

For Ann O;

Throughout Nature, there is a duality inherent in everything and everybody.
Why do we see good, to be good? How do we know what is good and what isn't? For one, we learn very quickly as children. We usually get a sense of what is good from our parents and teachers and religion. We learn what is good on our own, by trial and error. Good is also dictated by the social mores particular to the society in which we live.
Would there still be a need for God or the mystery of God, if it were not for the Devil?
The physical universe operates on the very simple premise that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Its the nature of all movement.
I think Lao Tsu is trying to demonstrate this by a litany of opposites:
hot and cold
dark and light
strong and weak
loud and soft.....etc.
It is because of one, that we know the other. But, there is a mystery that lies between. Lao Tsu calls it the Tao, or the way. Its just the nature of the conduct of life.
I hoped that helped, but I think I even confused myself there.

The following is an excerpt from a new book called The Second, and Last Coming: A Movin-On Novel by Luigi Enrico Pietra d'Oro to be released early next year by ProfessorPurplePants Publishing. www.professorpurplepants.com

A letter to all people, of all religions, who believe your home is elsewhere and are eager to exit planet earth:

Dear Brothers and Sisters who are eager for the end of days,

I write this at the very start of this story because once you read what’s next, you will likely not finish this book and this first request is important for you, and everyone to read; more important than this story. I have heard from you that ‘soon’ this world will end and you will be raised up in rapture into heaven, while everyone left behind will perish in the destruction. I have heard the eager anticipation in your voices, the certainty that you are among the special and the saved, and your righteous condemnation of the damned, all those who are of a different faith, who are unbelievers, of a different sexual orientation, who are at home on this planet, who do not fit your criteria, and in your eyes deserve to die, perhaps even suffer eternal damnation.

This I say to you.

“In your eagerness to reach the ‘end,’ do not advocate, hasten or contribute to the destruction of this exquisitely beautiful planet that has hosted and nurtured life. We have no certainty, not even any evidence, that there is any life like ours beyond this small sphere flying through the vastness of space. This fact alone warrants we do everything possible to honor and preserve what is.

By all means, leave if you are called. Go wherever you believe you can. But do no harm to our Home and we who prefer to be left behind. Your destructive desires and actions will not bring salvation, nor will they usher in a time of peace on earth. Only care and love and cooperation will move us towards peace on earth. That’s right, only peace on earth will bring peace on earth. I am bewildered that this is not obvious.

We like it here and we will not miss you. Good bye and good luck, and don’t mess with the earth.

Sincerely yours,

Luigi

There is no religion exempt from the faults of men, but if we look at the teachings that each of these Prophets have brought to us, it's clear that they are from God to enlighten us on our true purpose. The teachings of Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammed, and the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are there to guide humanity in its development, not that one Prophet is better than another, but they each had a message for civilization at each time in history. A first grade teacher may be teaching first grade material to a student, but that does not mean that teacher knows less than the 5th grade teacher...there job is to educate at the appropriate level for the child's development. This is also true for humanity...we have come a long way in our development and the conciousness of mankind is recognizing that we are all one. An idea that was brought to the world in 1844 with the Prophet Baha'u'llah. This may sound like, "just what the world needs---another religion and Prophet", however, it really is the same religion that people have been fighting about for centuries...Isn't it possible that all of these religions are from the same God and because of culture and other differences of people there has just been misunderstandings? For example, "Allah" is just another word for "God", but somehow "Allah" is understood by most as a different God that Muslims worship. So, is it possible that all of these religions came from the same God?

Pagosa Springs Colorado residents are trying to get the town to fine another resident $25.00 a day for a peace symbol/Christmas wreath display. They claim it is a satanic anti-war display. How sad has America become, when peace at Christmas is illegal? Is free speech a crime now also? George Bush has set the example of what an American Christian is. Holier than thou's, willing to destroy other countries and force their ideologies on them. Because of this, I have renounced Christianity(not Christ, just the religion). I'm now a Buddhist, because Buddhists are the only religion that focuses on cleaning up their own act, instead of demonizing other religions. Buddhists are the only religion that doesn't want to commit genocide on another religion.

What does Judeo-Christian mean? Is it the cowardly Christians' way of letting themselves off the hook for the continuous slaughter of Jews for the past two thousand years?

For Ann O;

Thanks for your post. I just would like to adress the subject of evil. In brief.

"We only know good, because there is evil.
give evil nothing to oppose, and it will disappear on it's own."

This is just another example of the duality in nature. And we are a part of nature. Just as, the thought that we only know beauty, because their is ugliness

Hi, David Fahey,

I have never understood this position -- that we know good only by knowing evil. To me that's like saying we can't know white unless we know black. Yes, there are dualities, I have no problem with that.

Can you explain a bit where you're coming from? Not that the question causes me any religion difficulty. I just don't understand the basis for the position and am curious.

Ann O.

I would like to add to the discussion by saying that we do have some gudiance given to us by the world's great teachers...(ex. Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Bab, and Baha'u'llah.) These Prophets came to educate us on the purpose of life in this world and if we would read these doctrines from each of these religions we would find they are all saying the same thing. There is so much more and it's great to be investigating our true purpose by sharing instead of arguing!

For Ann O;

Thanks for your post. I just would like to adress the subject of evil. In brief.

"We only know good, because there is evil.
give evil nothing to oppose, and it will disappear on it's own."

This is just another example of the duality in nature. And we are a part of nature. Just as, the thought that we only know beauty, because their is ugliness.

For Alethia;

The intelligence that Einstein is talking about is the harmony of natural law. It's an intelligence that we can see in nature, but we cannot duplicate it. That is why he was saying, "by comparison." Can we make a tree, or a fish. Can we develop the harmony that exists throughout nature? No, not even close. I am not talking about cloning or gene splicing, or the other man-made imitations of nature. Just think about the DNA molecule. That is the blueprint of the species it reproduces. Man can't do that. All of this natural world had to come from somewhere, no?

This is why I like the Tao. Lao Tsu suggests that we don't try to explain this, but just to be at one with it. Just attempting to use logic, defeats the purpose. That's what he means when he says;
"Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source."

He talks about when you are free from desire you realize the mystery. When we desire, we are only thinking about the "things," created, not the mystery behind the creations. It's like pointing a finger at the moon, if we look at the finger, we can't see the moon.

You say that, "he came to give life to all who believe." What about those that do not believe, they too are alive? You see this is why I don't care for "orthodox religion." It attempts to place boundries, where no boundries exist. It sets up division and lack of trust between us humans. Hence, all the violence attributed to religion.
But it IS men that allow the suffering of human beings, and usually it is man that creates that suffering.
I am not trying to indoctrinate you and lead you away from Christianity. If that is what works for you, then by all means, stick with it. But, please remember the Buddhist tenet that tells us to repect ALL religions.

Once again, thank you for your post.

It seems that I read somewhere that about 1/3 of the world's population has experienced some form of a supernatural event. Many of the remaining 2/3 of the world's population spends a lot of time trying to to prove to those who have experienced these events that such events did not happen. I have also read that there is a "God Spot" in the brain which, in some individuals, is more developed/responsive than in other individuals; either due to genetics or perhaps stimulation or lack thereof by the individual. So, I must conclude that there are a good many people who are deprived of adequate God Spot development and some of these have become prone to atheism because of lack of personal experience with the supernatural. So, to those people who lack adequate "God Spot" activity, I propose the following statement for thought. Proving to an atheist that God exists is like proving to a man born blind that light exists. One can argue that life itself depends on the existance of light but if the blind man has no experience of light then he can offer other explanations for his existance, which would seem plausible to him. He can choose to either confirm what everybody else sees as obvious or he can deny "light" based on his personal experience with blindness. To the stubborn denier of "light" one can suggest that he develop his own sense of "light" by concentrating on the effects of light as the existance of life in plants and animals, the interaction of chemicals with light, heat generating light as the sun etc.. Similarly, to the atheist, I suggest that he develop his God Spot by concentrating his efforts on the spiritual/supernatural or just allowing himself to experience the spiritual/supernatural instead of retreating to a defensive position of denial. The athiest might not think it fair that it is easier for some to have supernatural experiences while he seems to be deprived of those encounters. However, every human being is born with different abilities. Some abilities just may take more time than others to develop. But, then the greater the effort, the greater the reward. Those who earn their supernatural experiences may have a greater sense of spirituality than those of us to whom such experiences just seem to happen.
PS
The atheist may begin his spiritual journey with a simple prayer as: "God, allow me the gift of spirituality." Remember, before one begins any undertaking, one must visualize that undertaking happening. It is easier to live in denial than create possiblities.
Take Care
Holly

Sally i saw you on washigton Journal this morning.You were talking on religion.
I agree with you on Islam. That Religion isn,t
violent, its only those that are Fundamentalist
rightwing part of the Religion.Just like the
conservative Evangelicals are violent take a look at the violence against abortion clinics, and gay night clubs
Paul Hill.

Sally here is a book you should read

Thy Kingdom come
How the Religious right distorts the Faith and
threatens america.

Andall Balmer

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false,
by the rulers as useful."

Seneca (4BC - 65 AD)

I would like all of you religious people to please describe to me indept what heaven is.
I am sure you can describe hell in detail because your religious leader want to instill the fear of a god in you because you are looked upon as sheep to be led to the slaughter.
How come you aren't looked upon as elephants, or dolpins, two of the most intelligent animals on earth, you are sheep that are easily led.
You have been brain washed since birth and don't question your beliefs because you fear some sort of punishment from a god that is decribed as love.
The power of LOVE is how we came into being but LOVE is rarely mentioned in religious circles.
If you want to see god look in the mirror.
Here is a Proverb of mine. " If you fear your own godliness you will create a god that you fear"

The Great Quest

It is silly to be a believer or non-believer. We simply do-not-know!
Mankind should go on the quest to find out our place in the Universe. We must judge ourselves from the perspective that we are but the tiniest dot in this vast Universe we are just beginning to know. The quest to understand our place in the Universe can unite all mankind. It would help us make the Earth the best it can be, give us Peace on Earth, and unite us against the forces in the Universe we may not be able to control.

The idea and Phelosophy of the site is praise worthy. This recall us the plurilisium that used by all the Holy Prophets, Pious man of GOD,AFLATOON, SUKHRAT and SADI and HAFIZ and congratulation to the Country "CANADA" and specially the people who are making the policy of this great country. In todays WORLD it is only CANADA who accepts the HUMANITY pluralisum.
With in the Human being it is only PRINCE KARIM AGA KHAN, Imam of the Shia Immami Ismaili Muslims Who devoted himself for the PLURALISIM and WELFARE of the Humanity, and says 'DIVERSITY IS STRENTH'

Hello David,

I like your Einstein quote. However, I do not think that Einstein is saying we cannot understand anything about this "revealed intelligence." The use of the word revealed demonstrates that we can understand something about God. I understand Einstein to be saying that in our finiteness our thoughts are small compared to God. I think this is an accurate assessment since we are finite and God is infinite. The great news is that we can have eternal life by having faith in His eternal Son. He came to give life to all who would believe. Eternal life in more than just duration of time but it is also a quality of life. I have life in God that began the day I believed and it will never end.

Consider part of Jesus’ prayer:
"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3).

Sincerely,

Alethia

FROM DAVID FAHEY"
For Ann O.

I just wanted to add a P.S. here. I forgot to add that I don't think Jesus was misleading us when he said God is love. Actually, Christianity and Taoism really aren't all that different from one another. Christ taught us that God resides in all of us. We can choose to acknowledge his presence, or we can deny or ignore it. Very Taoist.

Hello again, David.

Christians agree that God is present in all things too. We also believe that His being transcends the level of being that we combination of body and soul are.

The presence of spirit (soul) in body is a problem for many people, however. As I see it, my consciousness (part of my spirit) is present in all parts of my body somehow, so although I don't understand *how* I have to think *that* it is so: spirit can be present in a body and remain spirit. This amounts to being in more than one place at a time. But now some physicists are introducing the that there are realities that can be present in more than one place at once. Hmmmm.

Anyway, we too believe that God is present everywhere and that there is goodness - and evil.
Evi, of course, is the great theological problem for Christians.

Ann O.

For Alethia;

Thats a very good point, and I would say accurate. Here is a quote from Albert Einstein that might help;

"The scientist's religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority, that in comparison with it, all the systematic thinking of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

"The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught up in desire, you see only the
manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding."
Lao Tsu

It is called darkness because none of our senses can percieve it. It could also be called light, because the less we obstruct it, the more radiant we are. It really is just simple wisdom, with a bit of poetic mystery thrown in. I think that's why The Tao is so influencial in Zen Buddhism.

Hello Cayambe,

Welcome to the discussion. I hope you are having a great evening. Would you say that a globe had no maker or a GI Joe no designer? Would you say that morality is based on opinion and that reason finds it source in impersonal matter? That is the natural conclusion of what you assert. I am glad that I can look to a transcendent God for if I looked for life in that which is finite I would have a limited life. But since I believe in the eternal God I have eternal life. Faith is only as good as the object of one's faith. Who or what is the object of your faith?

Alethia

Jesus said, “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly” (John 10:10).

Hello David,

Thanks for your kind explanation. Taoism is said to be "beyond logic." The problem I see with this is the attempt to explain Taoism with logic. Much like you have done above.

Alethia

Sally Quinn…….
I don’t know that I would classify myself as an atheist. I was born with no conception of God or religion, indeed it wasn’t until I was six years old that I was informed such a conception existed. Alas, as explained, it made no sense to me then, or since. I can’t really say God does not exist, just that I have no perception of him in any way shape or form, or feel a need for such.

If your yearning should bring you to believe in something transcendent or spiritual, I hope you will share your reasoning and perceptions which bring you to that condition. It has always been a puzzle to me how so many otherwise intelligent and discerning people persuade themselves of something so obviously silly, but they do. It leaves me wondering what the hell I’m missing here.

To those who believe that people come to faith in God because they are afraid of death, I can assure you that that was not the case for me. I came to God after finally getting over my fear of facing the truth. It is an earnest search for truth that led me towards God.

Wow! Some very interesting comments. This is a wonderful forum and something that supports what I already believe. As corny as this sounds---I grew up learning about the 3 onenesses---Mankind, Religion, and God. I am a Baha'i and believe we are all striving to grow closer to God and it's nice to see that there is a place to try to understand where others are coming from. Beautiful :)

For Ann O.

I just wanted to add a P.S. here. I forgot to add that I don't think Jesus was misleading us when he said God is love. Actually, Christianity and Taoism really aren't all that different from one another. Christ taught us that God resides in all of us. We can choose to acknowledge his presence, or we can deny or ignore it. Very Taoist.

For Ann O.

Thanks for your post. I don't know that much about Zen Buddhism, other than to say it is a slightly newer form of Tibetan Buddhism. I think it is a form of trickery that leads us to question and observe life, or the nature of life. All life.

I would like to give you an example of the Tao as written by Lao Tsu. (as translated by Stephen Mitchell):

"As it acts in the world, the Tao
is like the bending of a bow. The top is bent downward;
the bottom is bent up.
It adjusts excess and deficiency
so that there is perfect balance.
It takes from what is too much
and gives to what isn't enough.

Those who try to control,
who use force to protect their power,
go against the direction of the Tao.
They take from those who don't have enough
and give to those who have too much.

The Master can keep giving
because there is no end to her wealth.
She acts without expectation,
succeeds without taking credit,
And doesn't think that she is better
than anyone else."

I hope this helps.

For Alethia;

Personalities are developed through our upbringing and our life experiences, mostly. But I do believe there are inate qualities passed along from parents to children.

When I say that I don't think God is a personality, I mean that God is a force, and creator of everything in the universe. I think we made God in our image, not the other way around.
I call it God for lack of a better term.

I am a Taoist, and according to Lao Tsu's Tao Te Ching, the Tao created everything. Basically the Tao is nature. And we are just as much a part of nature as a tree or plant or some other living thing. To live in accorance with nature, by learning about the conduct of life in nature, for me, makes alot of sense.

It doesn't require belief in a supreme being, there is no dogma, no judgement no "given reward or punishment." The natural laws of cause and effect govern our lives just as they effect everything else in the universe. If we are mean and greedy, for instance, that is what we put out into the universe, and believe me it WILL come back to us in time. If we are loving and caring, bending and not rigid, content with the paradise right before our eyes, then that is what we get in return. Hell is of our own making and so is heaven.

If you would like to futher understand what I am so humbly trying to say, read the Tao. Also read the essays of Ralph W. Emerson. The father of transcendentalism.

Thank you for your question. I hope I made at least a little sense.

Being thankful is being appreciative of what is given to us. It is recognizing that what was given has great value. Being religious does not constitute thankfulness but our personal relationship with God first, then with others. Having a personal relationship with God teaches us to be thankful in what he has given us like life through his Son Jesus Christ, our family and friends and our physical possesions. When you have thankfulness through the root, which is God, then you can properly distribute the thanks through others and circumstances.

HUMAN BEING tells us: People interested in Tao Practices, check:
http://www.universal-tao.com/

Thanks for the site, Human Being. (I like your screen name :-) Very interesting.

Can you tell me -- do the Taoists believe there is objective goodness? From what I've read it seems Taoists seem to think there is, unlike some of the Buddhist teachings. If so, is this a difference between Taoism and Buddhism?

Another question. There is an oriental practice which I've found very useful in examining my conscience. (<<-- That's a Catholic phrase for remembering and examining one's sins). The practise is called "the One Thousand Petalled Lotus". Do you know from which tradition it springs? I recommend it all the time and would like to be sure which tradition it came from originally.

Ann O.

Remove the embellishments in religions and they basically converge. Abraham is the first of the embellishments that needs deleting.

People interested in Tao Practices, check:
http://www.universal-tao.com/

Hello David,

If God is not a person where did you get your personality? Did you get it from lifeless inert matter?

Alethia

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Can you imagine yourself nonexistent after death without any sense of being, any sentient awareness of self, gone forevermore for all eternity? If you have no problem imagining your nonexistence, more than likely you find it easy to be an atheist. On the other hand, if you are not able to imagine your nonexistence after death, you very likely will be searching most of your life for some way to prepare yourself for an existence in the afterlife. For many people that transcends into exploration of religious or metaphysical explanations for their existence here as well as in an afterworld. It seems to me that people are born with one or the other of these two different types of thinking about life and death. Some scientific studies recently have isolated areas of the brain which are different in atheists and believers, even to the extent of proposing the presence of a "God gene." I doubt that a meeting of the minds is possible between these two groups of people.

DAVID J. FAMEY tells us:

The Tao te Ching is a collection of 81 ideograms, that deal with our place in nature and the conduct of natural life. All life, all species. It doesn't judge, it doesn't punish, it doesn't bless or curse. It maintains balance in the world, and following its example, we learn to balance our own lives. There is a delicate harmony between Mind, Body and Spirit. Following the Tao helps us acheive that harmony. I am not preaching, just familiarizing the people on this bd., as to my beliefs.

Thank you, David. I didn't know that Taoism is practised in the West, though I know of its huge influence on Zen. Could you tell us more about the relationship between them?

I can understand the pull of such a religion. The problem of the suffering of innocent creatures gets to me all the time. I'm a cradle Catholic and have been taught to look for both the good as well as the bad in life, and I've found in my own experience that there is much, much more of goodness than evil. But still I simply have to trust that my brother Jesus is telling the truth when he says that God is love -- that eventually, as Julian of Norwich put it, all will be well and all will be well, and all manner of thing shall be well. It surely isn't well here. So, no, being a Christian doesn't lead to a harmonious relationship with the Absolute, at least not in my experience. So I can see the attraction of your faith. And I agree that there is much wisdom in it.

Ann O.

To Ann O.;
I don't believe that God is a person, I am not a Christian. Therefore there is alot about, not only, Christianity, but all of the other major orthodox religions, with the exception of Buddhism, that I don't adhere to.
I refuse to believe in any God that is vindictive and cruel. I don't believe God permits or doesn't permit human beings to suffer. Human beings permit human beings to suffer. I don't include natural disasters, like tsunamis or earthquakes or tornadoes and hurricanes. These are natural events that result from the changing, geological world we inhabit. But it is human beings that not only permit human suffering, they also are the cause. I am a Taoist.
The Tao te Ching is a collection of 81 ideograms, that deal with our place in nature and the conduct of natural life. All life, all species. It doesn't judge, it doesn't punish, it doesn't bless or curse. It maintains balance in the world, and following its example, we learn to balance our own lives. There is a delicate harmony between Mind, Body and Spirit. Following the Tao helps us acheive that harmony. I am not preaching, just familiarizing the people on this bd., as to my beliefs.

Pat tells us:
The GOD that I was raised to believe in (mother Southern Baptist and father (Luthern) was a punishing GOD. My memory is of always being told if I did something wrong GOD was going to punish me and I would never get to heaven.

Hi, again, Pat,

That is not the teaching of Southern Baptists and Lutherans whom I have known. As I understand them, God has different sorts of punishment, both in this life and the next, and some of them can be quite mild. In other words, not every little wicked thing we do is cause for damnation and they do not believe there is no hope of salvation for sinners. On the contrary, like most Christians, they believe that God forgives easily and cancels out punishment. But He does require that we also forgive others.

Ann O.

Pat Everett

Does God punish us? I would be interested in knowing what other Christians and other religions believe. Is it possible for you to post responses to this question for readers on a future Saturday? Thanks!

The GOD that I was raised to believe in (mother Southern Baptist and father (Luthern) was a punishing GOD. My memory is of always being told if I did something wrong GOD was going to punish me and I would never get to heaven.

Maybe that is what drove me away from organized religion. The GOD I believe in today has rules, however, he/she is NOT a punishing GOD. I can't imagine believe in "a god" that I would have to be afraid of. Now in my "old age" I know that my GOD is a kind and loving GOD that understands my struggles to do the right thing and maybe not always being perfect. I think he/she loves me just the way I am and helps me through hard times and good times. My GOD is there when I need someone to pray too and someone to cry with. I also give thanks to this GOD for all of the blessings in my life.

I talk to GOD just as if he/she were another person that knows better for me than I know for myself but also lets me learn the lessons I need to learn inorder to grow as a better person.

So maybe most of the people on here think I have what they would say is my own dreamed up beliefs. It works for me. I neither worry about if there is a heaven or hell. If there is I will deal with that when the time comes. I believe that hell just maybe here on earth and the lessons we learn from it sends us to a far better place in death. I feel as if I lead a good life by helping and caring for myself and others around me. I am not obsessed about what will happen when I am dead and live each day to the fullest here on earth.

So in short NO I do not believe in such thing as a punishing GOD.

PAT asks:

Does God punish us? I would be interested in knowing what other Christians and other religions believe. Is it possible for you to post responses to this question for readers on a future Saturday? Thanks!

Hi, Pat.

It is the usual belief of Christians that God does punish us for the sake of justice and our own good. He also forgives us when we are willing to admit that we have done wrong and to make restitution if that is owed to others. And we are taught that we must also forgive others as God forgives us.

N.T. Wright recently wrote a little book about evil and forgiveness called _Evil and the Justice of God _. It's short and easy to read. He admits that there is simply no philosophical answer to the question "Why does God permit innocent beings to suffer?" but his consideration of the evil done by people and God's response to it is quite profound, I think. I haven't quite finished it, but I recommend it highly. You might find it interesting.

Ann O.

Tom (I am told by the religious and sectarians alike that love is the answer to problems between people and peoples, but no one bothers to define it in a useful way. At 77, I have yet to hear a minister define it.
I find that looking for the good in others is a place to start. It is hard to find in some cases, but the act of looking for it is what makes the difference.
It is sort of like forgiveness. To forgive, or cancel a demand made upon someone, addresses the needs of the forgiver rather than the forgiven.)

First, read 1 Corinthians 13

Then find a book called 'A Love Worth Giving' by Max Lucado. This is a very good commentary on what love means.

If you still have trouble, Read 1,2 and 3rd john.

Greetings:

If something exists than something had to exist eternally because something cannot come from nothing. Reason requires person. Therefore, that which exists eternally is a person. This person is God.

God is clearly seen in what He has made, thus, humankind has no excuse for their unbelief. God has made us in His image. We are emotional, intellectual, volitional persons. God is also triune, He is three persons yet one God. That means that God is relational and has lived in relationship with the three persons of the Godhead from all eternity. We, being made in His image are also relational beings. We may interact with each other emotionally, intellectually, and volitionally. He made us to be one with Him, to have a relationship with Him but we have all gone our own way. We have said we do not want Him. We have chosen unbelief in Him and exchanged it for belief in man-made philosophies. We have all sinned and are therefore cut off from having life in Him who is the source of life. We are like branches broken from a tree and plants without roots. Yet we lift ourselves in arrogance supposing we have life when there is no life in us at all.

God the Son became a man to satisfy the justice of God on behalf of all humankind. He did this by paying our debt of death for sin on the cross. Then He arose from the dead and conquered death so that we could have new life. If a person will turn from their own way to God and place their trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross they will have new life now and for the rest of eternity. They will be united with God in a relationship of love. They will become part of the family in the community of God.

Bible Verses to Consider
“Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” (Genesis 1:26).

“...Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one” (Jesus’ Prayer John 17:11).

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse” (Romans 1:19,20).

In God's Love,

Alethia

Does God punish us? I would be interested in knowing what other Christians and other religions believe. Is it possible for you to post responses to this question for readers on a future Saturday? Thanks!

SMIJER tells us: The Unitarian Universalists are a rather small denomination, mainly in the United States. The UUA represents the merger of the Unitarian Church in America and American Universalists, both of which share a background in American protestantism, and a history dating to the original colonies. The basic tenets of Unitarian Universalism are the seven principles:

1 The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2 Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3 Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4 A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5 The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6 The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
7 Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Thanks, Smijer. Very interesting. Good to get some light instead of heat :-)

I find it interesting that you speak of your 7 "principles", not dogmas or credal beliefs. It seems to me that much of the acrimonious debate over the place of "religion" in law-making is due to not seeing that dogmas and ordinary moral principles can overlap.

For instance, according to Moses and Muhammed lying is evil, and this principle ("Lying is evil") is dogma in Judaism, Islam and Christianity. But everyone can learn this principle by ordinary human experience, and therefore "Lying is evil" is not simply a dogma for some believers -- for them it's *both* a moral principle learned by ordinary experience *and* an ethical dogma. In other words, some ethical dogmas and naturally discovered moral principles do not differen in *content* -- they differ only in the means whereby they are discovered. And some believers use both means.

It follows that some of the ethical principles of religious persons are indeed fit matter for public debate and should not be rejected simply on the basis that they are only religious dogma. Yes, they are religious, but some of them can also be gained by ordinary human experience and reasoning.

Yes, we can argue whether or not the experiences are relevant and the reasoning is proper, but such principles should not be automatically dismissed as being "unconstitutional" simply because they appear in a sacred book.

Ann O.

I think all religions, with the exception of a very few, believe they have a monopoly on God. But, interfaith discussions are not really new. Sure, I believe its possible. We are doing so now, although some posts a straying from the topic at hand.
I am of the belief that if one can stifle his or her passions as well as possible, it can be done productively.
But, there in lies the trick, because religion IS passion. It certainly is not reason. It is myth and cultus, with a touch of superstition.
Human beings seem to have a natural proclivity towards mythology. I think mythology can be very beneficial in regards to certain rites and rituals. But, I suppose it can be detrimental on certain levels. While superstition prolongs ignorance, it does does give us something larger than ourselves.
People need a connection to something larger than life. I think we all seem to need a certain sense of ascendency, something beyond the pains of this world.
But, as someone mentioned Emmanuel Kant a few posts back, I have to profess a certain agreement with Kant. He explains it well in his work, "Critique of Pure Reason."
Reason is cold and calculating. We need reason very much in our lives to say the least, but we also need a sense of wonder and awe. Some find that in a church or a mosque or tabernacle or synagog.
My personal belief is that heaven and hell co-exist, right here on Earth. My beliefs are simple. Too much intellectualizing cheapens or lessens that sense of awe. Without a sense of wonder, life would be just too boring and tedious. If there is a creator, surely it wouldn't go through the trouble of creating such beauty and magnificence in this world, if we we're born without that need to be amazed and awed.

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

Hello Davin,

Positing that the book that I believe reveals God is old does not answer the questions put forth nor does it disprove the existence of God. Dawkins assertions that “blind forces” are the source of the universe are a cop out. Ultimately the evolutionist believer assigns creative power to inert matter. The evolutionist reasons back to naturalism and thus assigns creative power to nature. In other words, nature is god. This presupposition does not match the real world that we live in.

Sincerely,

Alethia

Tom
That is so true. Please allow me to define love from my perspective.

Love is defined by God who is love, and through love, He decided to create man in His image so that they could have a perfect LOVE relationship together.

In order to manifest TRUE love, He had to give man the free will to choose TO love Him or NOT to love Him.

BUT

Man chose to love himself instead of God. Wanting to be his own God, determining what is right and wrong for himself.

BUT

God set out to prove His love and devotion to man by promising to deliver a Savior. You see God is perfect, holy, and just, and he requires the same of those He created, so first He, out of love, gave us a set of moral laws to live by.

BUT

We proved that we are unable to live by these laws to His standards, PERFECTION.

BUT

He did give us a Savior just as He promised. His own Son. “But God demonstrates His love for us in this, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” “Greater Love has no one than this, that He lay down His life for His friends.

You see God ALWAYS makes the first move in proving His love for us. That is why Jesus told us, “"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

That is LOVE!!

What I find intriguing is so called "religious" people, mostly Christians and Muslims, quote their own scriptures to justify their arguments that they are right and others are wrong. If I believe both the Bible and the Koran are great books and guides but not the infallible word of God, how can arguments based on these scriptures have any credibility with me? It's part of the arrogance of missionaries who assume the whole world will convert based on what a religion's scriptures say. The Mormons, for example, know that in most of the rest of the world, The Book of Mormon has no credibility. They use the Bible in their conversion attempts, naturally assuming that it has instant credibility in the Christian countries they try to get converts. It also intrigues me that religions say one thing in their scriptures like love, peace, harmony etc. and then in their actions are hurtful to their own or others. Many Christian and Muslim followers do not portray love and peace. On the other hand they are hateful and warlike in the name of their own exclusive God.

I have no faith in faith: Faith is the belief that certain propositions which are supported by no evidence whatsoever, are true! Indeed, such propositions may well be correct but one has no reason for believing that this is so, and such beliefs frequently lead to disaster. There are an infinite number of such possible propositions: Apart from the myriad of gods with different attributes postulated by various religions, we have such things as Russell's Orbiting Teapot and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. George W. Bush had faith that his god had chosen him to be president and that his god wanted him to invade Iraq and remove the (non-existent) weapons of mass destruction. I rest my case.

What I find intriguing is so called "religious" people, mostly Christians and Muslims,