The Pope's Visit to Turkey

vwqi kxhrwi tzgdhsue mpnxav snabzulg mphanclke psvi

vwqi kxhrwi tzgdhsue mpnxav snabzulg mphanclke psvi

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

Doesn`t matter what you say, but how...!! But you said it well http://boyspanking.iespana.es/

great site!!thanks for the service http://boyspanking.iespana.es/

Lovely, I must say, there is not so much themes, which deserve a comment. This one is realy needful http://boyspanking.iespana.es/

David,

Thanks for your post. I read it all the way through. I see you have an interest in eschology (end time prophecy). I have been recently trying to expand my knowledge of this subject as well, and have found the same things you have found to be true. I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts, even though some may call us crazy, I see the truth in them. God told us that He would give us signs for the end times. It's very hard to ignore these signs. First and foremost, the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948. This could very well be what people refer to as the "super-sign". Also, looking at science and technology these days makes you wonder as well. Your right, we have furthered our knowledge in such a way in the past 100 years, that it is hardly comparable to what we as mankind have learned in the past. Now with global warming as a threat to our world, we will see many more natural disasters, just like God said they would. The EU started with 10 nations. Look at the book of Daniel and you find 10 horns representing 10 nations. Can all this be coincidence. I don't think so. This is why I find an urgency more today than any other for the salvation of man. I hope that we could bring those who do not believe to Christ, not for our sake, but for theirs and the glory of God as well. Thanks for your post. I have a lot to learn, and I hope that maybe together we can share our knowledge to further our faith in God and to help those who are in need of spiritual salvation.

God bless you

Shrek3 Far Far Away needs a new king, and unless Shrek can find someone else, he'll be stuck with the figazavar...

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

To All

Muhammad and the Prostitute
Muhammad, The Great Anti Christ?
(TGAC)
A New Beginning?
Table of Contents

Beginning Note: Those who call themselves Christians and Muslims alike distort what the Bible actually says just to meet their needs and beliefs. But the Bible says what it says in truth. Mankind adds things to it. Read the Bible for what it really is, and you will find out things that you never thought were there.
When one translates something. They should realize that the translation all depends on how the sentence was said. But many take every possible meaning that one word might have and translate it to be what they want. It all depends on the tone and way that something is said also. Was it said in anger? Was it said as in a learning way? Was it said as a question? Was it said as a Parable to teach? Look in the book of Proverbs and wonder who is actually speaking here. (Proverbs 8:) Who was this craftsman at Gods side, The first of all creations? There are many other sections in the Old Testament where one can find Christ. But neither Catholics or Muslims will give into what God is really trying to tell us. Mostly because we have been told by other men who claim to be someone, and also claim to have all the answers to not study or even look for the truth on their own. Muslims are taught not to trust the people of the Book (Book meaning Bible). They are told that the People of the Book will lead them astray. And that would be true, if they followed the Church of Rome (Or the Prostitute that sets on the seven Hills. Actually the prostitute represents the City that ruled the world at one time. But the Bible speaks of another power coming from the First power in it’s own likeness).
But anyway, there is a big difference between those who call themselves Christians, and those who at least keep on trying to obey Gods Will.

We fight among each other because we refuse to obey God. We choose rather to do what Satan wants us to do. “Oh” how Lucifer must so delight in our hate for one another. I am only a man. But I will let God teach me what I need to Know. Of course many others say the same things as I do, but never truly try to understand what God is telling them. I am not saying I am totally right on everything. I make mistakes just like you. But I will always keep trying to learn more about the Lord. That is why I always say. Do not believe me for what I say. Prove me right or wrong by studying for yourselves. Pick up the Koran and study it. How will you know what your brothers believe in, unless you read it for yourself. The same goes for my Muslim Brothers. Pick up the Bible and read it for what it really says. Open up a history Book. Study, Study and Study some more. Do not let Satan deceive you any longer. This has been his plan from the beginning. To deceive mankind so as to have him destroy each other because of our own wants and beliefs. Do not believe just mere men (For which we all are). Believe God, and the proven history of the Bible. And as I hope and pray for Muslims in this truth, I also pray and hope for those who are Catholics.

Read these verses from Proverbs in the Old Testament. Who do you think it is speaking here? He says he was the first of all creations. He says he was the craftsman that stood by the side of God. Read for yourself what has been hidden, but was truly not. Only by our own selfishness do we miss what is really written in the Bible.

Proverbs 8: 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

PR 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

PR 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

PR 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

PR 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

PR 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

PR 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

PR 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

PR 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

PR 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind

The above is very interesting is it not. But even as it is. There are those who will make it say what they want it to say. Now, one might say that these verses are only giving an example of the Wisdom that was Gods. But any way you look at it, It still points bank to the wisdom that stood next to God. But if you do not believe that this is speaking of Christ, then here is something a little bit more just to confirm what is written here.
Read Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Very Interesting, Is it Not? A child sometimes understands these things better then we. They understand it better mostly because they do not have the selfishness that we as adults have inside of us. Because of this selfishness of ours, we kill, torture and maim one another, and claim that we are doing it in the name of the Lord and for his sake. Never has anything been spoken so wrongly by Mankind! What hypocrites we are to follow the words of men, instead of God.

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
A New Prophet?
Table of Contents

Muhammad while In Madinah was able to work freely in spreading Islam. The followers of Islam increased day after day. The ever increasing threat by the Makkans did not stop. Some small battles and confrontations occurred with the Makkans . Sometimes the battles were won by the Muslims, and sometimes by the Makkans. Muhammad also engaged in battles with the Persian and Byzantine Empire’s that were jeopardizing his newly formed Occult from the north and the east. But the battles with the Makkans stopped for a while after a treaty was made at Hudaibiyah that was signed by the Muslims and the Makkans who were thought as being unbelievers.
In Madinah, Muhammad succeeded in establishing Islam as a way of life in its supposedly true meaning. He provided Muslims with rules and Regulations to obey as if they were from God himself. His laws and rules govern many with an Iron scepter even till this day

Just before the fall (Or I should say the last fall of Rome the city, and the western Roman Empire) of Rome in the 7th century. (Of Course many say that Rome as a power with its Emperor was defeated in or around 470 AD) A certain man went to Rome to find out more about God. He thought he would be able to learn more about the Lord by talking and studying with the Christian Church (The Catholic Church) in Rome. But the only conclusion he came up with was that the Catholic Church at that time was not following what God had put down for man to obey. He saw them worshiping false idols in the Church buildings. They were praying to Mary, Peter and other saints. So in reality he knew that this was wrong. Except for the fact that he judged all Christianity on what he saw and learned in Rome. So he seemed to think that it was his duty to straiten mankind out on who God really was.
One might be able to say because of this, he started one of the worlds greatest Anti Christ’s Movements ever. He became the worlds greatest anti Christ leader, even to this day. (Could he have been the Great Anti Christ himself? He possibly could of been. But there is still much to study on this matter. Mostly because one could always be wrong on his theory’s). This mans name is Muhammad.
But anyway that one might look at who Muhammad really was and is. He still comes out to be an Anti Christ. He and his followers all deny that Christ is the Son of God. They say that he was only a profit. Basically they are saying that Christ was a minor prophet, and Muhammad was the great prophet that was to come. Are we to hate Muslims because of this? No we are not! They are mislead just like others are mislead by those who say that they are someone, when in reality they are only deceivers who want to rule over other’s. By doing this, they do it in his name. And I don’t mean Christ.

It is strange to me that this has not been spoken of through out the century’s. It seems to just have passed right by the Christian world. Except for the wars that went on during the Crusades. And the wars that went (Read the excerpts on the first page of this book.) on to make the Muslim religion what it is today. Some might think by reading this that the Church of Rome did think that he was the anti Christ (or something like one). Then again why would the Church of Rome think something like that? (When most likely the prostitute that sits on the seven hills spoken of in the Bible might represent the Church in Rome. Or it might even be the second beast. Remember, Rome was built on seven hills. Now Don’t jump up and down and stone me yet. These are just things that one should really study hard on). But that seems not to be the case. The wars were fought for land and rulership, and to force others to believe in what they believed. Of course both sides used God as their Excuse. Both sides thinking that God was on their side.

One would seem to wonder where the “devil” did not stand in those wars. And one might think which side was God really on. Well” you would have to take in the history of the Catholic Church at that time. And if you knew the Bible and studied it like you should. Then you would know that neither side obeyed what Christ left for us to honor the Father with. But even with all this happening, we should remember that there still were those then that knew neither side was right and followed the Lord in sometimes hidden places. There were always those who knew Christ for what he really was, and is. The Son of God, our savior. They knew that it was wrong to worship idols and the such. But because of their rebellion against the Catholic Church and the Muslims, they were often tortured and killed.
Our brothers and sisters of that era had it pretty bad it would seem. But they knew the truth. And as it says. The truth will set you free. Our brothers and sisters died because of their faith in the Lord. Even though they feared the pain of torture and death. They knew that they would live forever with the Lord. They knew that the Lord would save them in this way. By our Brothers and sisters dying in this way, they became an encouragement for others in times to come.

Many today believe that the anti Christ will rise and rule the world in the days to come. Some believe that he might be alive today and is just waiting for the right opportunity to start his rain of terror. I can not say that this will not happen in this way for sure. But by everything that I read and come up with in the Bible seems not to be on the side of those who think that the antichrist will be what they have made him out to be.
Not saying yes. But not saying no to this. There are many things we as Christians can be off on. Just like the Jews thought when Christ came. They thought when the Christ came, he would destroy the Romans and restore the Kingdom at that Time. They read the Scriptures and miss-interpreted them just as many do today. Never be to sure of yourselves of what you think you have found. The Bible also says that the antichrist will be Reveled. It could just Possibly be someone who might of already been here and the religion that he represents. This man could be someone that the Christians and world alike have just passed by without a second thought. Give or take a peace here and there.

Many Christians today get stuck on one idea, or belief, and stick with it till the day they die without exploring the rest of the Bible and the history that goes with it to see if what they believe could in realty be off just a little. “Not saying that they are wrong in there thoughts totally. But possibly being not quit right with the unfolding of the matter. I myself come to no permanent conclusions on many matters in the Bible, for I leave myself open to possibly being wrong on some things, but am convinced on many other matters. The Book of Revelations can be a tricky book for some. Mostly because many are taught by others to believe in what they have come up with in their own findings, which can be a good thing in some teachings. But can become a disaster if not put down and studied in the manner that God set for us to in the Bibles history. I am still studying and come to no permanent conclusions yet about some things in the Book of Revelations. But I do sway towards the positive in many other matters in what they might mean for us today.
If I hear someone talking about an antichrist that will be in the form of a man and will rule the whole world soon, or in the days to come. And if those who believe this, also preach a thousands years of peace on the earth and then the coming of Christ. Then I move back and take a deep breath because of the fact that the Bible does not really speak of a thousand years of peace. The ones who believe this, get this Idea from Revelations 20:, read this for a better understanding of what the thought might be in believing in a thousands years of peace on the earth. Also read Revelations 7: 1 to 4 and Revelations 14: 1 to 5.
But one can not just read two or three lines in a chapter and come up with the conclusion of a thousand years of peace before our Lords return. It is just not saying that here. You have to read the rest of the chapter, and the Bible to understand and get the big picture of it all. Here is something that tells us why it probably will not happen in this way. Mostly because it is to obvious. (But again, I say that I am still studying these matters also. So I could be wrong) Read in (1 Timothy: 1 to 11. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.)

But don’t stop here, or begin here. Read the rest of it also. The whole thing fits together like a puzzle. “A simple, but complex Puzzle”.
There is a big possibility that the antichrist has already come and set his mark upon the world through a false religion, which is the second largest religion in the world. This religion and many of its followers are the reason that the world leaders of today are looking for new ways to protect themselves. Because of this religion, new security measures are being sought through out the world. One of the security measures being looked at today is an ID card that possess sophisticated biometric data, Called the Smart ID Card. This card would have a Chip in it with all your vital information. The chip could be monitored from satellites, and your location could be known at anytime. The Smart ID card is a thought still in process for our Government. But others are considering it soon.
The Card seems like a good idea because of all that is happening in the world today. So many will most likely agree to something this simple. “But then again” why not! It would make life much more secure and convenient, wouldn’t it? Or would it. The Smart ID Card could be just a stepping stone to the next level of a so called National Security plan.
There is already a company out there with a Chip called the VeriChip. The VeriChip is a implantable chip. It is the size of a rice grain. And its so-called purpose is to make your life more secure. “Why” you could implant one of these chips in your child just in case someone was to kidnap her or him, and the police could trace them down with the use of Satellites and save your child. You could pay a monthly fee and know exactly where your child is at all times by going to your computer and clicking on a program that will let you see on a map (or other) where your child is located. Sounds great, does it not! Of course there is much more that this chip can do. And I mean much more. All this seems to sound good, doesn’t it. But can you imagine what the future might look like with this type of control over you?
Many of you out there that are Christians think that everything already has taken place in what it says in the book of Revelations. But that is not quit true. The world is still here, and Jesus never came back yet. I would suggest to wake up folks. Our generation might not live to see this happen (I tend to lean towards that we just might see it taking place) but our children might. And because of that possibility, we should be strengthening each other and our children in the Lords words.
You might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about this happening because the Lord is our protector. And that is very true. But will you be able to stand up under persecution. With what’s going on in the world today with homosexuality and other major sins of imorality taking place. With the Gay community winning, what they call civil rights (But what in reality is sinful immoral acts of sexual imorality) comes another thought of major concern for the Christian.
After they get what they want in the category of Marriage. There will be no stopping them in what ever they demand to be moral. Christians will be their next target after they have won there civil rights. We as Christians will look like an evil and corrupt organization that is no better then the K.K.K. We will be made to look like the troublemakers in this society. And guess what will happen then. “People” If you do not think this can happen in this country or in this world. Then you had better burst those safe Bubbles of yours. I am not saying this is going to happen now, or will happen in the way I just explained it. But this is for sure, Christ is not going to come back to save us in destroy the world because the people in the world are being good little boys and girls. He is going to come back because the people of this world will not put up with sound doctrine any longer. When the world is just too sinful for Him to put up with any longer is when to expect his coming.
And yes, you are right. No one knows the day and hour of our Lords return. But there are signs that tell us that it just might be close at hand. ( Matthew 24: 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.) Read all of Matthew chapter 24 to get the whole meaning of what is said here. There is much more being said here then Jerusalem falling to the Romans. It goes way beyond Jerusalem the City.

Again you might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about that day. And again I say you are right, but only in a since. You might not be worrying about that day for your own safety. But what about your neighbors and your coworkers and everyone else in the world that has not accepted our Lord yet. What will happen to them? I think we all know very well what their future holds for them. So by knowing this, we should be more powerful in our work for the Lord to bring as many as we can into His forgiveness.
Yes that’s right, you or I might not have to worry about the Lords coming if we are keeping with his ways. But many others do. So what should we be doing as Christians? We should be studying his word so as to be ready to make use of every opportunity that rises up before us.

There is much more that can be discussed on this matter. But to get back to the main idea that I started from in this section of the book. And that is, to not be to sure of what you have been taught to believe by others in your life, unless you have truly spent many hours and years into the study of these matters which were spoken of in this chapter. We should always be open (as long as it is not trampling on the words that God set down in the Bible for us) for more understanding.
There seems to be an opening of the word today. An increase in the knowledge of the Bible. Within the last five years, if not only three or four, there seems to be a better understanding of what is really being said in the Lords Book. I always wonder just what Daniel was really writing about when he spoke of the last days, where people would go from here and they’re to increase Knowledge. Read In the NIV Version (Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.")

Now read what the King James version says. (Danial 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.)

By reading both you get a better understanding of what is being said here. It says that knowledge shall be increased. We can look at that in two ways. One is, that I do not remember Nero, Herod, King James or anyone else in times past driving around in big limousines and playing with their computers and sending e-mail to there buddies. In other words. We have seen in the last hundred years, an enormous Increase in Knowledge and science and technology. In just the last 20 to 25 years we have doubled that knowledge in the Science and technology areas. But besides all that, there seems to be a increase in the knowledge of the Lords words. The bible seems to have been opened up father for those who seek more knowledge of what God has planed for his people. Maybe this is just my imagination, and no one else sees this happening. Remember I could be wrong. I am just another Christian trying to come closer to the knowledge that God might want me to have. But there seems to be something happening today (Or something coming) that intrigues me to seek more and more of what The Lord put down in his book and the history that goes along with it.

After all these thoughts we have just discussed, we come back to who was, or is the antichrist anyway? Was it, or is it Mohammed? Or is the antichrist still to come? Christ said the antichrist was already with them two thousand years ago. He said the antichrist is anyone who denies that He is the Son of God. That might have been just the beginning of what was, or is to come. There definitely does seem to be something about a number system where no one, rich or poor can buy, sale or trade without this number. But that number does not necessarily have to be one number as 666. It could be that as the bible says. That 666 is mans number. Some think that this might have something to do with man being created on the sixth day. others tend to lean in this direction and add to it that we are now in our six thousandth year of creation after the flood, or before the flood. Is any of this right or wrong? I am not sure about all that. But it is something to maybe ponder upon. None of us are all that perfect and all knowledgeable. We can be wrong in our thinking. That is why the Lord said seek and ye shall find.( Matthew: 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.)

Remember again, that there is a difference of those who call themselves Christians, and of those who at least keep on trying to do better in the Lord. God is not created in our image. We are created in his. Do we think that He can not keep a little book together in the way that he wanted it to be. He created the whole universe. Everything in the Bible is to be obeyed. If we change anything in it to suite our own wants and needs. Then we deserve what is promised to those who disobey

To All

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
Muhammad, The Great Anti Christ?
(TGAC)
A New Beginning?
Table of Contents

Beginning Note: Those who call themselves Christians and Muslims alike distort what the Bible actually says just to meet their needs and beliefs. But the Bible says what it says in truth. Mankind adds things to it. Read the Bible for what it really is, and you will find out things that you never thought were there.
When one translates something. They should realize that the translation all depends on how the sentence was said. But many take every possible meaning that one word might have and translate it to be what they want. It all depends on the tone and way that something is said also. Was it said in anger? Was it said as in a learning way? Was it said as a question? Was it said as a Parable to teach? Look in the book of Proverbs and wonder who is actually speaking here. (Proverbs 8:) Who was this craftsman at Gods side, The first of all creations? There are many other sections in the Old Testament where one can find Christ. But neither Catholics or Muslims will give into what God is really trying to tell us. Mostly because we have been told by other men who claim to be someone, and also claim to have all the answers to not study or even look for the truth on their own. Muslims are taught not to trust the people of the Book (Book meaning Bible). They are told that the People of the Book will lead them astray. And that would be true, if they followed the Church of Rome (Or the Prostitute that sets on the seven Hills. Actually the prostitute represents the City that ruled the world at one time. But the Bible speaks of another power coming from the First power in it’s own likeness).
But anyway, there is a big difference between those who call themselves Christians, and those who at least keep on trying to obey Gods Will.

We fight among each other because we refuse to obey God. We choose rather to do what Satan wants us to do. “Oh” how Lucifer must so delight in our hate for one another. I am only a man. But I will let God teach me what I need to Know. Of course many others say the same things as I do, but never truly try to understand what God is telling them. I am not saying I am totally right on everything. I make mistakes just like you. But I will always keep trying to learn more about the Lord. That is why I always say. Do not believe me for what I say. Prove me right or wrong by studying for yourselves. Pick up the Koran and study it. How will you know what your brothers believe in, unless you read it for yourself. The same goes for my Muslim Brothers. Pick up the Bible and read it for what it really says. Open up a history Book. Study, Study and Study some more. Do not let Satan deceive you any longer. This has been his plan from the beginning. To deceive mankind so as to have him destroy each other because of our own wants and beliefs. Do not believe just mere men (For which we all are). Believe God, and the proven history of the Bible. And as I hope and pray for Muslims in this truth, I also pray and hope for those who are Catholics.

Read these verses from Proverbs in the Old Testament. Who do you think it is speaking here? He says he was the first of all creations. He says he was the craftsman that stood by the side of God. Read for yourself what has been hidden, but was truly not. Only by our own selfishness do we miss what is really written in the Bible.

Proverbs 8: 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

PR 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

PR 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

PR 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

PR 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

PR 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

PR 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

PR 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

PR 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

PR 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind

The above is very interesting is it not. But even as it is. There are those who will make it say what they want it to say. Now, one might say that these verses are only giving an example of the Wisdom that was Gods. But any way you look at it, It still points bank to the wisdom that stood next to God. But if you do not believe that this is speaking of Christ, then here is something a little bit more just to confirm what is written here.
Read Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Very Interesting, Is it Not? A child sometimes understands these things better then we. They understand it better mostly because they do not have the selfishness that we as adults have inside of us. Because of this selfishness of ours, we kill, torture and maim one another, and claim that we are doing it in the name of the Lord and for his sake. Never has anything been spoken so wrongly by Mankind! What hypocrites we are to follow the words of men, instead of God.

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
A New Prophet?
Table of Contents

Muhammad while In Madinah was able to work freely in spreading Islam. The followers of Islam increased day after day. The ever increasing threat by the Makkans did not stop. Some small battles and confrontations occurred with the Makkans . Sometimes the battles were won by the Muslims, and sometimes by the Makkans. Muhammad also engaged in battles with the Persian and Byzantine Empire’s that were jeopardizing his newly formed Occult from the north and the east. But the battles with the Makkans stopped for a while after a treaty was made at Hudaibiyah that was signed by the Muslims and the Makkans who were thought as being unbelievers.
In Madinah, Muhammad succeeded in establishing Islam as a way of life in its supposedly true meaning. He provided Muslims with rules and Regulations to obey as if they were from God himself. His laws and rules govern many with an Iron scepter even till this day

Just before the fall (Or I should say the last fall of Rome the city, and the western Roman Empire) of Rome in the 7th century. (Of Course many say that Rome as a power with its Emperor was defeated in or around 470 AD) A certain man went to Rome to find out more about God. He thought he would be able to learn more about the Lord by talking and studying with the Christian Church (The Catholic Church) in Rome. But the only conclusion he came up with was that the Catholic Church at that time was not following what God had put down for man to obey. He saw them worshiping false idols in the Church buildings. They were praying to Mary, Peter and other saints. So in reality he knew that this was wrong. Except for the fact that he judged all Christianity on what he saw and learned in Rome. So he seemed to think that it was his duty to straiten mankind out on who God really was.
One might be able to say because of this, he started one of the worlds greatest Anti Christ’s Movements ever. He became the worlds greatest anti Christ leader, even to this day. (Could he have been the Great Anti Christ himself? He possibly could of been. But there is still much to study on this matter. Mostly because one could always be wrong on his theory’s). This mans name is Muhammad.
But anyway that one might look at who Muhammad really was and is. He still comes out to be an Anti Christ. He and his followers all deny that Christ is the Son of God. They say that he was only a profit. Basically they are saying that Christ was a minor prophet, and Muhammad was the great prophet that was to come. Are we to hate Muslims because of this? No we are not! They are mislead just like others are mislead by those who say that they are someone, when in reality they are only deceivers who want to rule over other’s. By doing this, they do it in his name. And I don’t mean Christ.

It is strange to me that this has not been spoken of through out the century’s. It seems to just have passed right by the Christian world. Except for the wars that went on during the Crusades. And the wars that went (Read the excerpts on the first page of this book.) on to make the Muslim religion what it is today. Some might think by reading this that the Church of Rome did think that he was the anti Christ (or something like one). Then again why would the Church of Rome think something like that? (When most likely the prostitute that sits on the seven hills spoken of in the Bible might represent the Church in Rome. Or it might even be the second beast. Remember, Rome was built on seven hills. Now Don’t jump up and down and stone me yet. These are just things that one should really study hard on). But that seems not to be the case. The wars were fought for land and rulership, and to force others to believe in what they believed. Of course both sides used God as their Excuse. Both sides thinking that God was on their side.

One would seem to wonder where the “devil” did not stand in those wars. And one might think which side was God really on. Well” you would have to take in the history of the Catholic Church at that time. And if you knew the Bible and studied it like you should. Then you would know that neither side obeyed what Christ left for us to honor the Father with. But even with all this happening, we should remember that there still were those then that knew neither side was right and followed the Lord in sometimes hidden places. There were always those who knew Christ for what he really was, and is. The Son of God, our savior. They knew that it was wrong to worship idols and the such. But because of their rebellion against the Catholic Church and the Muslims, they were often tortured and killed.
Our brothers and sisters of that era had it pretty bad it would seem. But they knew the truth. And as it says. The truth will set you free. Our brothers and sisters died because of their faith in the Lord. Even though they feared the pain of torture and death. They knew that they would live forever with the Lord. They knew that the Lord would save them in this way. By our Brothers and sisters dying in this way, they became an encouragement for others in times to come.

Many today believe that the anti Christ will rise and rule the world in the days to come. Some believe that he might be alive today and is just waiting for the right opportunity to start his rain of terror. I can not say that this will not happen in this way for sure. But by everything that I read and come up with in the Bible seems not to be on the side of those who think that the antichrist will be what they have made him out to be.
Not saying yes. But not saying no to this. There are many things we as Christians can be off on. Just like the Jews thought when Christ came. They thought when the Christ came, he would destroy the Romans and restore the Kingdom at that Time. They read the Scriptures and miss-interpreted them just as many do today. Never be to sure of yourselves of what you think you have found. The Bible also says that the antichrist will be Reveled. It could just Possibly be someone who might of already been here and the religion that he represents. This man could be someone that the Christians and world alike have just passed by without a second thought. Give or take a peace here and there.

Many Christians today get stuck on one idea, or belief, and stick with it till the day they die without exploring the rest of the Bible and the history that goes with it to see if what they believe could in realty be off just a little. “Not saying that they are wrong in there thoughts totally. But possibly being not quit right with the unfolding of the matter. I myself come to no permanent conclusions on many matters in the Bible, for I leave myself open to possibly being wrong on some things, but am convinced on many other matters. The Book of Revelations can be a tricky book for some. Mostly because many are taught by others to believe in what they have come up with in their own findings, which can be a good thing in some teachings. But can become a disaster if not put down and studied in the manner that God set for us to in the Bibles history. I am still studying and come to no permanent conclusions yet about some things in the Book of Revelations. But I do sway towards the positive in many other matters in what they might mean for us today.
If I hear someone talking about an antichrist that will be in the form of a man and will rule the whole world soon, or in the days to come. And if those who believe this, also preach a thousands years of peace on the earth and then the coming of Christ. Then I move back and take a deep breath because of the fact that the Bible does not really speak of a thousand years of peace. The ones who believe this, get this Idea from Revelations 20:, read this for a better understanding of what the thought might be in believing in a thousands years of peace on the earth. Also read Revelations 7: 1 to 4 and Revelations 14: 1 to 5.
But one can not just read two or three lines in a chapter and come up with the conclusion of a thousand years of peace before our Lords return. It is just not saying that here. You have to read the rest of the chapter, and the Bible to understand and get the big picture of it all. Here is something that tells us why it probably will not happen in this way. Mostly because it is to obvious. (But again, I say that I am still studying these matters also. So I could be wrong) Read in (1 Timothy: 1 to 11. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.)

But don’t stop here, or begin here. Read the rest of it also. The whole thing fits together like a puzzle. “A simple, but complex Puzzle”.
There is a big possibility that the antichrist has already come and set his mark upon the world through a false religion, which is the second largest religion in the world. This religion and many of its followers are the reason that the world leaders of today are looking for new ways to protect themselves. Because of this religion, new security measures are being sought through out the world. One of the security measures being looked at today is an ID card that possess sophisticated biometric data, Called the Smart ID Card. This card would have a Chip in it with all your vital information. The chip could be monitored from satellites, and your location could be known at anytime. The Smart ID card is a thought still in process for our Government. But others are considering it soon.
The Card seems like a good idea because of all that is happening in the world today. So many will most likely agree to something this simple. “But then again” why not! It would make life much more secure and convenient, wouldn’t it? Or would it. The Smart ID Card could be just a stepping stone to the next level of a so called National Security plan.
There is already a company out there with a Chip called the VeriChip. The VeriChip is a implantable chip. It is the size of a rice grain. And its so-called purpose is to make your life more secure. “Why” you could implant one of these chips in your child just in case someone was to kidnap her or him, and the police could trace them down with the use of Satellites and save your child. You could pay a monthly fee and know exactly where your child is at all times by going to your computer and clicking on a program that will let you see on a map (or other) where your child is located. Sounds great, does it not! Of course there is much more that this chip can do. And I mean much more. All this seems to sound good, doesn’t it. But can you imagine what the future might look like with this type of control over you?
Many of you out there that are Christians think that everything already has taken place in what it says in the book of Revelations. But that is not quit true. The world is still here, and Jesus never came back yet. I would suggest to wake up folks. Our generation might not live to see this happen (I tend to lean towards that we just might see it taking place) but our children might. And because of that possibility, we should be strengthening each other and our children in the Lords words.
You might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about this happening because the Lord is our protector. And that is very true. But will you be able to stand up under persecution. With what’s going on in the world today with homosexuality and other major sins of imorality taking place. With the Gay community winning, what they call civil rights (But what in reality is sinful immoral acts of sexual imorality) comes another thought of major concern for the Christian.
After they get what they want in the category of Marriage. There will be no stopping them in what ever they demand to be moral. Christians will be their next target after they have won there civil rights. We as Christians will look like an evil and corrupt organization that is no better then the K.K.K. We will be made to look like the troublemakers in this society. And guess what will happen then. “People” If you do not think this can happen in this country or in this world. Then you had better burst those safe Bubbles of yours. I am not saying this is going to happen now, or will happen in the way I just explained it. But this is for sure, Christ is not going to come back to save us in destroy the world because the people in the world are being good little boys and girls. He is going to come back because the people of this world will not put up with sound doctrine any longer. When the world is just too sinful for Him to put up with any longer is when to expect his coming.
And yes, you are right. No one knows the day and hour of our Lords return. But there are signs that tell us that it just might be close at hand. ( Matthew 24: 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.) Read all of Matthew chapter 24 to get the whole meaning of what is said here. There is much more being said here then Jerusalem falling to the Romans. It goes way beyond Jerusalem the City.

Again you might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about that day. And again I say you are right, but only in a since. You might not be worrying about that day for your own safety. But what about your neighbors and your coworkers and everyone else in the world that has not accepted our Lord yet. What will happen to them? I think we all know very well what their future holds for them. So by knowing this, we should be more powerful in our work for the Lord to bring as many as we can into His forgiveness.
Yes that’s right, you or I might not have to worry about the Lords coming if we are keeping with his ways. But many others do. So what should we be doing as Christians? We should be studying his word so as to be ready to make use of every opportunity that rises up before us.

There is much more that can be discussed on this matter. But to get back to the main idea that I started from in this section of the book. And that is, to not be to sure of what you have been taught to believe by others in your life, unless you have truly spent many hours and years into the study of these matters which were spoken of in this chapter. We should always be open (as long as it is not trampling on the words that God set down in the Bible for us) for more understanding.
There seems to be an opening of the word today. An increase in the knowledge of the Bible. Within the last five years, if not only three or four, there seems to be a better understanding of what is really being said in the Lords Book. I always wonder just what Daniel was really writing about when he spoke of the last days, where people would go from here and they’re to increase Knowledge. Read In the NIV Version (Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.")

Now read what the King James version says. (Danial 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.)

By reading both you get a better understanding of what is being said here. It says that knowledge shall be increased. We can look at that in two ways. One is, that I do not remember Nero, Herod, King James or anyone else in times past driving around in big limousines and playing with their computers and sending e-mail to there buddies. In other words. We have seen in the last hundred years, an enormous Increase in Knowledge and science and technology. In just the last 20 to 25 years we have doubled that knowledge in the Science and technology areas. But besides all that, there seems to be a increase in the knowledge of the Lords words. The bible seems to have been opened up father for those who seek more knowledge of what God has planed for his people. Maybe this is just my imagination, and no one else sees this happening. Remember I could be wrong. I am just another Christian trying to come closer to the knowledge that God might want me to have. But there seems to be something happening today (Or something coming) that intrigues me to seek more and more of what The Lord put down in his book and the history that goes along with it.

After all these thoughts we have just discussed, we come back to who was, or is the antichrist anyway? Was it, or is it Mohammed? Or is the antichrist still to come? Christ said the antichrist was already with them two thousand years ago. He said the antichrist is anyone who denies that He is the Son of God. That might have been just the beginning of what was, or is to come. There definitely does seem to be something about a number system where no one, rich or poor can buy, sale or trade without this number. But that number does not necessarily have to be one number as 666. It could be that as the bible says. That 666 is mans number. Some think that this might have something to do with man being created on the sixth day. others tend to lean in this direction and add to it that we are now in our six thousandth year of creation after the flood, or before the flood. Is any of this right or wrong? I am not sure about all that. But it is something to maybe ponder upon. None of us are all that perfect and all knowledgeable. We can be wrong in our thinking. That is why the Lord said seek and ye shall find.( Matthew: 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.)

Remember again, that there is a difference of those who call themselves Christians, and of those who at least keep on trying to do better in the Lord. God is not created in our image. We are created in his. Do we think that He can not keep a little book together in the way that he wanted it to be. He created the whole universe. Everything in the Bible is to be obeyed. If we change anything in it to suite our own wants and needs. Then we deserve what is promised to those who disobey

porn movies

russian porn

RUACHX POWERFULLY EXPRESSED

It's not Benedict's place -- nor is it any of Christendom's place -- to help Islam "deal with its more violent and extreme elements". THAT is our number one problem: our knee-jerk response to "help" other countries solve their problems. For us to insinuate ourselves into the middle of (what we perceive to be) problems in Islam is about as helpful to Muslims as it was when Europeans decided to "help" Native and Africans become "civilized" almost three centuries ago.

Look around us! Poverty, desolation, crime, abuse, neglect. There aren't enough social workers to deal with the everyday stuff we do to each other -- so we now want to what? "Help" Islam deal with violent and extreme elements? Tell you what:

Take care of Fred Phelps showing up at Walter Reed, shouting his blasphemous and inciteful diatribe, then we can talk about "helping" Islam with its extremists.

Stop anti-abortionists from blowing up clinics and murdering doctors, and then we can talk about "helping" Islam with its violence.

Feed our babies, get our children off the streets, and educate our young people -- give them a future -- then, maybe, we'll talk about "helping Muslims take on" the parts of their society they wish they could eradicate.

As Christians, our backyard is littered with the aftermath wrought by violence and extremism, and before Benedict starts trying to lead his sect of Christendom into "helping" people who really don't want our help, he needs to take a page out of Pope John Paul II's book and start working toward healing the rifts between Catholics and Protestant religions.

The Christian house isn't clean enough for our leaders to be going out and dictating what other religions should do when they need to weed out certain "elements". And it won't be clean enough, until we've plucked a few planks out of our own eyes first.

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

well the turkish visitors have left and i took them to times square and to see the tree at rockefeller center and on a carriage ride through central park and as they were my guests and are very secular i didnt bother them with my religiosly oriented question because i know it would have made them uncomfortable and their was a language barrier that barred deep discussions- but we took alot of nice pictures and we all had a hoot...peace im not done with my answer by a long shot gaby

jazakhalakhairum rana

i have some people coming in from turkey tomorrow so ill ask their opinions about the papal visit
(other than the streets were closed down)which is all they told me when i asked- people are the same every where peeeace

Verses from the Quran:I believe this verse from the sura(chapter)The Dinner Table refering to Christians was posted before:

5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave with vanity.

The Chapter continues by describing the monks and priests with the following words:

[5.83] And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).
[5.84] And what (reason) have we that we should not believe in Allah and in the truth that has come to us, while we earnestly desire that our Lord should cause us to enter with the good people?
[5.85] Therefore Allah rewarded them on account of what they said, with gardens in which rivers flow to abide in them; and this is the reward of those who do good (to others).

alethia may ALLAH return you safely

Alethia,

Have a good trip! When you come back, maybe you could give me a down to earth answer instead of quoting the "good book" to me.

Alethia,
it seems to me that you did not take into consideration Quran 60:8-9 which I mentioned earlier. Parts of Quran 9 was revealed during a time of war. When muslims and non muslims were at war with each other and muslims were being persecuted against for the sole reason that they were MUSLIM and were being driven out of their homes. Thus God allowed them to defend themselves rather than "turn the other cheek" which frankly wouldnt have worked.
"Verse 5 in surah Tauba was revealed when the pagans had broken the terms of the treaty with them and plotted to fight the Muslims; to counter it, the directive was given: “But when the forbidden months Are past, then fight and slay The pagans wherever you find them/ And seize them, beleaguer them/ And lie in wait for them/ In every stratagem of war.”
Likewise, when the pagans mounted a war on the faithful they were told in verse 14: “Fight them, and God will/ Punish them at your hands,/ Cover them with shame,/ And He will help you/ To overcome them.” In surah Muhammad, verse 4, the instructions were more
specific: “Therefore, when you meet/ The unbelievers at war/ Smite at their necks/ And subdue them/ Thereafter show generosity/ By granting them ransom.” "

(http://www.islamherald.com/asp/interfaith/hinduism/islam_victim_of_distortion.asp)
(http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/tafseer/tauba.htm)

You can't just take a passage out of the Quran without regards as to why it was revealed. Its not telling muslims to randomly kill non believers for the heck of it! come on man gimme a break. If that was the case how do you explain the relationship between muslims and christians in places like Morroco and Spain where Churches and Mosques were placed side by side and people lived with civility. If youve really studied Islam and the Science of the Quran you would know that. I cant help but think that your study involved but a few books about Islam and a shallow reading of the Quran.
The Quran 60.8-9 tells us that if they (Jews, Christians, Non Beleivers) dont war against the Muslims, then be KIND and JUST towards them.

Furthermore to say that the Prophet 'hijacked' Christian and Jewish doctrine is such bollocks. The Prophet was the seal to all of all Prophets. He was simply carrying the message of all faiths which started as monotheistic religions but eventually completely drifted away from the original teachings that there is only One God worthy of worship and to not align partners with him. Even Christians admit that the Bible has been changed and no two Bibles are the same. Furthermore how can people even claim that the Bible is the word of God or of Jesus when Jesus didnt even write it. It was written after his death. Furthermore there are so many things in the Bible which are scientifically untrue. You will never find that in the Quran because the Quran reflects that God is perfect because the Quran is perfect.
Now can you stop picking at the same things and move on?
ANd if Jesus came to die for Me and the Entire world as you said Alethia then why doesnt everyone in the entire world just go to Heaven? Why do we have to be Christian to go to Heaven then? and if we deny Jesus then its pretty pointless that he died for us isnt it? And if Jesus was the son of God, how can he be God as well? And if he was God and the Son of God (which i cant bring myself to understand) then how can he 'die' for us? i mean how can God die? and just because Jesus was a virgin doesnt mean he was God or the son of God for Gods sake! Jesus never claimed he was the Son of God. People only started saying that after he died.

Oh and I dont know why Christians arent allowed to preach to people in Muslim countries. I have no clue, maybe your better off asking those Muslim countries.

"I see the gospel "according to Luke", "according to John", "according to Matthew", .. etc. I DON'T SEE A GOSPEL "ACCORDING TO JESUS"! The "Gospel according to Jesus" can only be found in some chapters and verses in the Quran." - here here to that!

Dear Gaby,

Thanks for the question. Eternal life is not just duration of life after a believer dies but it is life in the here and now. Jesus changed my life 19 years ago when I studied the Bible and came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Since that day my life was made new.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Now I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I speak to Him is prayer and He speaks back to me through the Bible and through the way He leads my life.

Another aspect of life now in Christ is with fellow believers. We get together and have fun together and learn more about God.

I will be going out of town for a while so I will not be making any posts while I am gone. If I do not catch up with you all again I want Victoria, Gaby, and Thor to know that it has been a pleasure meeting you. God Bless You!

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him" (1 John 4:9).

Verses of the day, from the Quran, Chapter 6:

110. Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

111. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".

112. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the b est Sustainer (of our needs)."

115. God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

116. And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wo uldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

119. God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment o f all desires).

120. To God doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

================================================

Such was the spirit in the missing Gospel of Jesus! Peace be upon Jesus and his mother Mary...

GABY what an excellent penetrating question---
when i was maybe 11-12ish i had a book of comics by this beatnik artist jim crane- i google him and cant find him- and there was this guy trying to make deals with god like if iworship you will you make me rich or something like that and at the end he said :o i must worship you becasue you are god? what kind of deal isthat? but that says it for me- ive thought al ong time about motives intentions and to worship god because youre going to get rewarded seems like the lowestr of weasel self serving maneuvers to me-
would we be good- kind- considerate of other humans if we werent rewarded/punished for our actions?
what if we had absolute freedom to live consequence free?
(like the 70s hee hee) just kidding i liked in austin powers when he said about living in the 60s without any consequence of sexual encounters- never mind i digress as always-

would we live with some code of honor some standard we hold ourselves too?
truly?
only judging ourselves?
i know humanists and atheists claim this and good for them-

i cant answer this right now because im cleaning and resealing the grout in my kitchen floor- but ill get back to you for sure-
do you believe this is my short answer?
peace

actually thor what youre suggesting is living life with a heightened sense of awareness of your own mortaltity- you assume that because someone is not trying to control that knowledge that they are not living consciously.

what if we packed that consciousness into our mentality right now? what if we tried to focus that sense of urgency and limited time into our everyday living- what if we tried to live every moment i the present instead of thinking about the future or obsessing over the past-dwelling in past hurts or angers or regrets-what if we tried to bring it out from insides ourselves instead of an outwardly imposed catalyst- do you know how many small and large and beautiful things happen when we relinquish control and admit we are really suscepible to the waves of fate?
would you concede that this is also a very valid mentality?

ithink you and gaby are having the same motives of living in the present but just perceive it's accomplishment differently.
what do you think?
did i misunderstand? let me know peace

Alethia and Victoria,

Both of you seem to be ardent students of your religious texts. And I am sure you are storng believers in your individual faiths.

The question I have is why is religion that important to you? Is it because you see it as a way of life while alive? Or is it beause you want to be rewarded with an afterlife?

TO THOR:

I WROTE:

ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold. "

YOU RESPONDED:

This is no reason. Knowing in no way obstructs your ability to live in the present, in fact it will only ENHANCE it if you Learn you have only a few years left, and then you try your utmost to enjoy them, travel, and generally do all the things you have postponed for later."

Actually, Thor, it is a very valid reason.

You are talking about living for another 5 or 10 years or longer and your ability to plan what you would do with the time you have left.

What if you were told that you will die in the next 10 minutes? How much planning can you do then?

When my time is up, it's up, so be it. But I'd rather not know!

alethia, im a little disappointed- i have had suspicons of your good intentions and have bent over backward to assume the highest motives-

now you reveal that you have had this conversation and are well versed in these accusations, so obviously you have something in mind-

just tell us the answer you want ecveryone to hear!

what was posted here was more of a defense- the only accusation is the implicitly slanderous question.

obviously you have a well stocked website that has dealt lengthily in this topic-
so skip all this foreplay and just give us the answer i know you have.

peace peace peace

Alethia wrote:

"Just what I thought, you dodged the questions like every other Muslim friend on this thread. You make the same accusations I have been listening to for years by my Muslim friends yet never with any proof. All you are doing is setting up straw men. I pray that you will see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that you can experience His love and forgiveness."

After ALL these questions that I asked you and in which I implied "how weak" your position is, you say I dodged the question? Amazing!

You say, "Gospel of Jesus Christ"

I see the gospel "according to Luke", "according to John", "according to Matthew", .. etc. I DON'T SEE A GOSPEL "ACCORDING TO JESUS"! The "Gospel according to Jesus" can only be found in some chapters and verses in the Quran.

Shalamu Alaikum (As Jesus would "say it")!

Dear Friend,

Just what I thought, you dodged the questions like every other Muslim friend on this thread. You make the same accusations I have been listening to for years by my Muslim friends yet never with any proof. All you are doing is setting up straw men. I pray that you will see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that you can experience His love and forgiveness.

Love in Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Alethia wrote:

"I have been waiting for weeks for a Muslim to answer the following questions. Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world?"

Do you want to have a license to take people away from the light of knowledge in Islam into the darkness and confusion of christianity? In the west, Islam is propagating very fast, even in the midst of this angry attacks on Islam. Why don't you start where you are and try to convert some?

Have you ever been to any of these countries that you want to go to and preach? Do you know that most arabs actually know a lot more about the bible than most christians? Do you know that the arabs are not moved at all when someone reads some bible verses to them? That's because they got used to the high standrads of the Quranic recitation. I am not trying to be mean here. Believe me I am telling you the truth. Do you know that many christians in the middle east are hiding their believe in Islam and have actually converted but afraid to show it because of the pressure from the churches there? Perhaps you can try and convert these people back first.

Do you know that most of the christians who convert to Islam in the middle east are either young and outspoken or too old and afraid to meet their Lord before making the announcement? Do you know that christians in the middle east are "instructed" to not listen to the Quran when recited? Do you know that christians in the middle east are "instructed" not to discuss or engage in any religious debate with muslims?

Imagine yourself standing in front of a muslim, and he asks you, from which christian denomination are you? Which version of the bible do you use? The moment you answer these questions (and you have to), you have discredited yourself. It is self destructive to be grilled in front of a youngster who asks basic questions that you can't answer. Have you ever listned a muslim preacher? Do you know how balanced and logical these speeches are? I sure listned to a lot of christian preachers and I know the big gap in the message between the two. What Islam give muslims is freedom of belief with no restrictions on reading other scriptures and compare notes. That's why muslims have such strong faith. What will you do when every wall of confusion you build, they bring it down in front of your eyes (much like what I did with you)? Muslims use the Quran as the "quality control" scripture over others. What will you do when a muslim tells you that you can't trust the bible as it is today because out of the 24,000 available bible manuscripts, no two are identical? I imagine a young kid running toward you and asks: Uncle, how do you know if the true message is in the bible that use and is not in the other (24,000 - 1) ones out there.

Did you ever think that may be, just may be, it is the church that doesn't want you to go there? Hmmmm! You are giving me some ideas now! Perhaps muslims are the ones who should start preaching Islam at a corner near to you! Now that was fun!

Peace on you (as Jesus himself said in the bible! Did you know that one?)

come on alethia- why dont you ask abul kasem? the darling of faithfreedom.org?

hes an apostate but is still alive and kicking enough to pander to islamophobes. daniel pipes? hes written reams of hateful yes i said it- hateful orientalist anti-islam books-

look- if youre hetting your information from people who loudly proclaim their hatred for islam- how can you expect it to be a respected opinion?

if you really want to know the answer to this question- ive offered you websites- and now this lady has offered you another one sunnipath.com

we need to move on from this subject-

alethia- show us something positive about your faith-

do you have any interesting stories that would uplift us?

i know you have more in you than this tired question which you keep asking ive seen many people answer you

come on be positive

faithfreedom.org? tellchildrenthetruth which seems a thinly veiled jewish anti muslim site?

im certainly getting an education...

I have read the Quran many times and never went upon the word "spread by the sword" but what i read was .." And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers? *99
It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense. *100
Yunus : Jonah 10 : 99-100 (The Noble Qur'an)
and if we have to see why did mouhamad fought the jews in the madena , we should read the histor very good and see that there was a treaty between the jews and the muslims and the jews broke the treaty ..if we can read the deatails mabe we could come with a clear idea about what realy happened.

this is the truth and perhaps i set myself up to criticism for it but- i became muslim 2 years before 911 through prayer and study- im a white american type and i used to always volunteer that i became muslim without marrying one- and i met an african american fellow in chicago and when i told him that he told me he didnt become muslim in prison and we laughed and we laughed---anyway- i was so clueless that - you know that white cotton cloth you often see people wearing in the eastern world? well its called MUSLIN-- AND I SWEAR I THOUGHT THAT the people who wore that cloth were called MUSLINS AFTER THEIR CLOTHES!! and ive read alot of rumi and sufi stuff and all sorts of stuff about islam and i didnt quite make the connection- admittedly Alot of stuff i read was really dated like 1001 nights translated by richard burton but still i know well what you speak of...

Dear Sidrah,

You are very careful with your selection of verses. One thing that I have already discussed on this thread is the doctrine of abrogation. Qur'an 9 cancels all the peaceful verses towards Christians and Jews.

Al-Shawkani
Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

I have been waiting for weeks for a Muslim to answer the following questions. Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations? The truth is Muhammad high jacked some doctrine from Christianity and Judaism when He came along six-hundred years after Christ. He then made up his own religion. When Jews and Christians rejected his message because it was heresy he became violent. What we see today in the Muslim world is his followers following his example.

I do not point these things out because I hate I point them out, out of love for the true and living God and out of love for my fellow humans. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God. Even Muhammad knew He was born of a virgin. Why was He born of a virgin? It is because He is God. Jesus is God incarnate and He came to die for you Sidrah and the entire world.

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

PS: I studied Islam before 9/11. 9/11 just reinforced what I already knew.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

"Slowly the West is giving up it's freedoms, to eventual enslavement to Islam."

its funny how people only make silly comments like this after 9/11. Before that no one even know what Islam was and all of a sudden everyone is an expert on the religion.

that was from www.sunnipath.com

i find it quite amusing that no on seems to pick up on this verse:
"Allah does not forbid you from being kind and just towards those who did not make war on you because of your deen or drive you from your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are just." - 60.8-9

but perhaps that is because it doesn't serve their agenda. tsk tsk

Ok so this is for those people who continuously pick out a few verses from the Quran to show that it is a religion of violence:

"These are common stereotypes about Islam. People who don't understand the religion like to toss around the accusation that the Qur'an teaches violence and anti-semitism. Unfortunately, a lot of people who buy into these misconceptions have distinctly Islamophobic agendas that preclude them from having any positive views of Islam.

Islam is a fourteen-hundred years old way of life. One simply can't take the scripture of Islam, which is the Qur'an (also spelled Koran), and make sweeping generalizations about the religion, particularly when one lacks the qualifications to interpret the Qur'an.

The Qur'an makes reference to different groups of non-Muslims. First, the Qur'an recognizes the natural diversity of humanity, "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Qu'ran, 49:13)

There is also the recognition that human beings are religiously and ethnically diverse, "For, had God so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community; however, He lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides aright him that wills [to be guided]; and you will surely be called to account for all that you ever did!" (Qur'an, 16:93)

What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."

The Qur'an speaks of "kuffar," or those who disbelieve, or cover up the truth, or deny the truth of God and His messengers. However, it is incorrect to translate "kafir" as infidel. The Qur'an also does not label all non-Muslims as kuffar, or unbelievers.

The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

The Qur'an is the culmination of the Abrahamic tradition. Thus, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the completion of God's message to humanity. Muslims also believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original form since its revelation over 1400 years ago. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has not been altered by human hands. For Muslims, this is a miracle and proof of God's concern for humanity.

Let's look at one of the most misunderstood passages of the Qur'an:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out..."

Most people usually only quote the first part.

Here's the entire passage:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Qur'an, 2:190-192)

Let's look at the interpretation of the above verses. First, examine the historical context. These verses were revealed at a time when Islam was under siege, when the small Muslim community was fighting for its very existence against powerful polytheists. The biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah bless him and give him peace, makes it very clear that the Prophet preached peacefully for the first 13 years of his mission. He left Mecca for Medina to make a new start. Even when the polytheists in Mecca were persecuting Muslims and looting their houses, the Prophet hesitated to fight. He only took up arms when God gave him permission:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them." (Qur'an, 22:39)

The first battles the Muslims waged were in self-defense. They were disciplined and adhered to strict codes of conduct. Noncombatants, including women and children were not targeted. Furthermore, the Muslims avoided destroying property, livestock, and trees.

Even as Islam spread beyond the borders of Arabia into the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires (Syria and Persia), non-Muslims were accorded certain rights. If they accepted the authority of the new Islamic government, then treaties were concluded and the non-Muslims paid a special tax, called a jizya. The options were not convert, die, or pay the tax. Instead, non-Muslims were allowed to practice their own religions and maintain their own institutions. In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax. This tax exempted them from military service and gave them special status under the Islamic system. Many non-Muslims actually welcomed Muslim rule, knowing that they had certain rights under the new system. In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax. This tribute system was very compatible with the political economy of the premodern world.

Islam could not have had the huge appeal it did if Muslims' first response was to kill "infidels." Within one hundred years of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread from Spain in the West to China in the East. Islam's initial spread was through political-military means. However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes. Muslims ruled places like the Indian subcontinent for centuries and did not forcibly convert the population. In fact, India remained majority Hindu under Muslim rule.

The Ottomans created a multi-confessional, multi-ethnic millet system where Muslims, Christian, and Jews lived together in peace. In fact, the Ottomans' elite military corp, the Janissaries, were predominantly Christian.

Islam's tolerance, and indeed welcoming, of other religions flourished in places like Spain, where Muslims cultivated an atmosphere of learning, scholarship, and art. Christians flocked to study in the universities of Muslim Spain.

Consider this:

In the Catholic Reconquista of Muslim Spain, Muslim and Spanish Jews were generally ordered to convert to Christianity, be expelled, or die.

When the Spanish Jews fled the Catholics, where did they go? They sought refuge with the Ottoman Muslims in Istanbul. This was in the 15th century. To this day, there is a Jewish quarter in Istanbul where the people still speak Spanish, descendants of the Spanish Jews who found a home with the Muslims!

Let's go back to the Qur'an:

The Qur'an says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an, 2:62)

And, the Qur'an also states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an, 2:256)

Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Today, as yesterday, and in centuries past, Islam speaks to people's hearts with the beautiful message that There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger.

This is a message that has inspired countless believers from all walks of life, a religion followed by over 1.5 billion human beings the world over, including my own family, who were raised as Christians, but discovered the beauty of Islam over three decades ago."

i thought gabys post was one continuous post
i didnt know you made it

i dont want to know because im afraid it would make me act like a hypocrite and start praying more or do better works as i approached my death day

thats why whenever i say ill do something tomorrow i say "insha'alla" if god wills it-

there is a saying that says, work as if you will live forever, and pray as if you will die tomorrow.

going to the doctor and getting an analysis has no real bearing on my immortal soul- thats the difference

ok?

"ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold. "

This is no reason. Knowing in no way obstructs your ability to live in the present, in fact it will only ENHANCE it if you Learn you have only a few years left, and then you try your utmost to enjoy them, travel, and generally do all the things you have postponed for later.

Despite all this logical stuff, you are in the 98 % or so MAJORITY. Of course that does not make it right.

Only two (me and my old friend) wanted to know.

victoria

victoria :

"im surprised, id assumed i was in the 98%.
98% of people would want to know the time of their death? thats amazing..."

You did not read carefully. I NEVER said which was the 98% and which the 2%, so that I did not prejudice the voting.

It all fits very well with a forum of "faithful" who put a low premium on Science and Knowledge

It also fits well with a society that, even in the "brainiest" University Campuses, 40% or so of all people living there read HOROSCOPES.

And that's funny... they enjoy reading that NONSENSE predicting what their future will bring, but they refise to know (assuming it was available, which it is not) when they'd die so they can change their life to their benefit!

I am convinced that still most people do not get it, so I'll do an example.

In my case, if I do not learn when I'll die, I will assume that I will live more or less as much as my relatives did, and add a few years for science's progress and my own optimism, so I'd plan assuming I'll live another 40-50 years from now. And I will not throw my hard-earned retirement millions to the wind, since I would expect to need them over a long time, perhaps need $ for long term care which is very expensive, etc.

BUT if I knew for a fact that I had only anopther FIVE or TEN years to live, I would USE that VALUABLE info to do much better than otherwise,

since I can then PLAN my travels, work projects, spending etc to fit the NEW Reality.

IF the 98% were consistent, then they also would NOT want to know what is going on every time they go to the doctor for a check up! What is the diff?

im surprised, id assumed i was in the 98%.
98% of people would want to know the time of their death? thats amazing...

TO A question for all in the FOrum, at the end of this post :

" frequently ask people a question and I am quite surprised by their answers.

I ask them to suppose that somebody (God or whoever) would tell them when they would die. No gory details, just the date and the time, such as Nov 21, 2076, 3 PM. Would they LIKE to KNOW or not?

Only I and an old friend (who now is a very wealthy business owner) answered one way, and 98% of the people asked answered the other way.

I am curious what you and all the rest of the forum would choose."

ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold.

Dear Friend,

I am simply making an observation of what these texts clearly teach. I am not saying that those observations are the word of God. The point is that Jesus received worship for the disciples and the angels are commanded to worship Him. Jesus existed before He became flesh as was pointed out with the John 17 passage. God became flesh in John 1:1-3, 14). The “Word was God and with God” and the “Word became flesh.” A child would be born who would be called “the Mighty God” and “the Everlasting Father.” You have refused to answer this case by dodging the issue. Until you address these points with a sound refutation we have nothing more to talk about.

In the Grace of Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Dear Sidrah,

Thanks for your response. The acts I see before me in the Muslim world testify to the violence of Islam. Forced conversions are seen in the case of Fox news employees Steve Centanni and Olaf Wig. This is consistent with what is taught in Qur’an 9 the war chapter. Qur’an 9:5 and 9:29-30 highlight this truth clearly. This is also seen lived out by Muhammad himself in the Hadith. If you refute that with reason instead of violence then you have accomplished refuting the Pope. I am thankful to the Arabs for Algebra but Algebra has nothing to do with this matter. By the way, I am not Catholic and am not an apologist for the Catholic Church. I am simply a Christian in the arms of Jesus.

In Jesus the Truth,

Alethia

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

This is for Alethia, who has been seemingly waiting a very long time for some refute the words of Manuel II Paleologus so here it is Alethia;

"To show that Islam sees God as so transcendent that reason is extraneous, Benedict cited an 11th century Muslim sage named Ibn Hazm. To establish the connection between this position and violence, he quoted a 15th century Christian Byzantine Emperor (and head of the Byzantine, or Eastern Church) named Manuel Paleologus. Paleologus criticized Muslims for "spreading (their faith) by the sword," both because "God is not pleased by blood" and because true conversion depended on reason. "Show just what the Muhammad brought that was new," Paleologus said, in a passage quoted by Benedict, "and there you will find things only evil and inhuman." It remains unclear whether Benedict was deliberatley trying to raise the temperature. Many analysts, especially in Rome, think he knew exactly what he was saying and regard the Islamic section of the 35 min. speech as a brave and eloquent warning of Islam's inherent violence and of faithless West's inability to offer moral response. Yet Benedict's argument was slapdash and flawed. His sage, Ibn Hazm turned out to have belonged to a school with no current adherents, and although reason's primacy is debated in Islam, it is very much part of the culture that developed algebra. Paleologus ' forced-conversion accusation misrepresents the sweep of Muslim history, since more often than not, Islam has left religious groups in conquered territory intact, if hobbled. And assuming that a punctilious scholar like Benedict really wanted to engage on Islam and violence, why do it through the idiosyncratic lens of an embattled king in the 1400's who made his name partly for his efforts at drumming up enthusiasm for a new Crusade?" - Time Magazine, November 27, 2006

Thanks for the "goblin" catch!

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)"

Now you quote verses but you put YOUR OWN TEXT to justify anything you say. You are now acting exactly like the hundreds of the "unknown" authors of the bible. Please take note of that.

"Woe to those who write the book by their own hands, then they this is from GOD! Woe to them for what they have written and Woe to them for what they have earned!"

Peace!

What is Woo to you? Are you goblin? Its "Woe"

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)"

Now you quote verses but you put YOUR OWN TEXT to justify anything you say. You are now acting exactly like the hundreds of the "unknown" authors of the bible. Please take note of that.

"Woo to those who write the book by their own hands, then they this is from GOD! Woo to them for what they have written and Woo to them for what they have earned!"

Peace!

10 ten different valuse ascribed to each card

actually i have to agree with the scientist- the physical fact that tomorrow will come is not based on faith that it will ome- but from observation of a phenomenon that so far the earth moves around the sun every day- in islam we say if we are going to do something tomorrow insha'alla- if god wills it-
meaning we know there will be a tomorrow, but maybe we will, maybe we wont be here to see it.

that psalm seems to me to be david talking to god. mixing it up with NT doesnt change its core meaning.

newton was a man of deep faith- and scientists have had inspirations and stepped outside of the bonds of logic that is part of discovery.

i would say faith has been known to limit science-
science hasnt limited faith so far-

an interesting aside on laws of probability-
years ago i read tarot cards (which is as non scientific as you can get)
i did it with the intention of debunking so i became the best of the best at it-

i worked for honeywll bull for a man who was one of the 5 men on the planet working in artificial intelligence and they were trying to teach computers to dream (this was 1986)

so out of the 56 cards- i ascribed numerological and symbological values to them using a variety of categories-(atrological, elemental etc) and with each card came up with about 1 different values that could be applied to each.

then every day using very simple control questions we would do readings and put the information in the computer. we were lookinf for patterns and correlations.

interestingly enough after 2 months of this, the findings were that it was an indeterminate process. being cards and cards always follow the laws of probability- youd assume that there would be a pattern but surpringly this wasnt the case.

i personally dont see any contradictions between science and faith (islam hasnt has this problem) but people can and do limit and try to control.
as amatter of fact i was just watching micheal crichton the author talking about how the british government right now is abusing scientific infromation- and how the scientists there are angry and their findings being twisted and results being misused---

im probably in the 98%- i do not want to know the time and date of my death.

i dont think anyone is questioning that you have faith alethia and we dont demand that you prove the existence of your faith-

i think asking for proof that thought processes exist, reason and logic- is a distraction.
i think the whole asking of an impossible question
is a device to avoid the questions put before you.

you asked for an answer and were given one.
did you mean an answer that would make you happy?
or fit in with your own philosophy?

what exactly was your point that was proven with the answering of question?

besides ive answered at length and in detail every question youve asked of me- so in turning the tables- when will you respond to my many questions?

have you proven my point by not answering?

obviously we are all sitting at computers so we all must share some respect for science-

You could not answer the question so you have proved my point.

Alethia

Alethia :

Dear Scientist Friend,

"Can you observe empirically the reason you are using to try to explain your position?"

Oh please don't play sophistic games with me.

"Have you seen tomorrow?"

No, nor has anybody else. In my courses, I gave a handout of unbelievably wrong predictions by the biggest experts, to show them how futile is to try to predict the future.

" Do you make plans for tomorrow?"

I certainly do, and I revise them daily as necessary. That does not in the least refute the fact that nobody knows Everything that will happen tomorrow or a year from now.

" Why would you make plans for what is has not been observed yet?"

Oh PLEASE! I make plans so that I can ACCOMPLISH something in my life and I can MONITOR to what extent they are done. These "plans" are mostly JOBS I have to do at work, things I want to see on TV, meetings, etc. None of these are cast in stone.

" You use faith all the time."

No I do not, And EVEN if I did, it has NOTHING to do with RELIGIOUS Faith, that blindly accepts the verses of Alleged holy books as true, with ZERO Proof.

" You plan for the future by faith."

Of course I do not. I plan with knowledge (imperfect, but knowledge nonetheless!) Random events may happen, and may change my plans, but i KNOW that TOO, and have PLANNED fot it!

" When you reason with me you are appealing to the laws of logic to make your case."

There is no other way.

" Yet you cannot see logic."

If I could, I'd say in my earlier post, I use my senses ONLY. I did NOT say that, I said I use my senses AND my brains!

" If you truly only trust in what can be proven empirically"

NO, of course not, I also trust what can be proven MATHEMATICALLY! And I trust that even MORE.

Mathematics is the Queen of the Sciences. And Music, serious classical etc music, is almost 100% MATHEMATICS too! Empirical sciences are imperfect, but Mathematics is not.

That is why many have associated MAth with God, and for Geometry in particular, there is a mnemonic rule to help remember the first few digits of PI, in greek, translated

"Always the God the Great Does Geometry"

" then you would not use logic to try to prove a point."

There is no other way.

" So you see you have not answered the question. "

I have answered all questions, regardless if you liked the answers or not.

"If you are going to use logic to explain things to me and you are an empirisist"

No, actually at work I am not an experimentalist, but a Heavy user of Math, as you may have already guessed.

" I think you better account for logic using the scientific method or else you are living inconsistently with what you say you think."

Logic is a tool of the Scientific Method. Logic is used in Mathematics excusively.

If you only allow Observation and Experiment, and no mathematics, you have excluded most modern science.

Oh, and BTW

I frequently ask people a question and I am quite surprised by their answers.

I ask them to suppose that somebody (God or whoever) would tell them when they would die. No gory details, just the date and the time, such as Nov 21, 2076, 3 PM. Would they LIKE to KNOW or not?

Only I and an old friend (who now is a very wealthy business owner) answered one way, and 98% of the people asked answered the other way.

I am curious what you and all the rest of the forum would choose.

Make it simple, no ifs ands and buts, would you like to know, or not?

Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)

Book of Hebrews Explanation of Who Jesus is

1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son,
today I have begotten you"?

Or again,

"I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son"?

6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him."

7Of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire."

8But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

10And,

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.[a]
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end."

13And to which of the angels has he ever said,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

14Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Peter's Explanation of Who David was talking About

27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

"'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool.'

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Dear Friend,

I will answer your questions when you answer the verses I have already posted about the existence of Christ before He came to earth. I am not going to dance around with your shifting arguments. You answer what is convienant to what you believe but ignore the truth clearly stated that a child would be born that was God (Isaiah 9:6). That Jesus existed before He came to earth (John 8:58), that Jesus received worship from His disciples and did not rebuke them.

In Jesus Christ the Ancient of Days,

Alethia

Dear Scientist Friend,

Can you observe empirically the reason you are using to try to explain your position? Have you seen tomorrow? Do you make plans for tomorrow? Why would you make plans for what is has not been observed yet? You use faith all the time. You plan for the future by faith. When you reason with me you are appealing to the laws of logic to make your case. Yet you cannot see logic. If you truly only trust in what can be proven empirically then you would not use logic to try to prove a point. So you see you have not answered the question. If you are going to use logic to explain things to me and you are an empirisist I think you better account for logic using the scientific method or else you are living inconsistently with what you say you think.

In Christ Jesus,

Alethia

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. (Hebrews 11:1-3)

Alethia :

"As for my scientist friend I have a few questions.

" What makes the scientific method possible?"

Many things, but of course first and foremost that the thinking person Refuses to accept ANYTHING IN FAITH but tries to UNDERSTAND the world we live in with his or her senses and his or har brains. Without the Crutches of allegedly holy scriptures, which were ALL REALLY Written by HUMANS claiming to be inspired by dreams and apparitions and NO PROOF of any of that.

Primitive people used to deify all aspects of NAture, such as the Wind (!), THunder, etc.

THEN the Ancient Greek Philosophers came along, before the classics, in the 7th and 6th century BC, and started a GOLDEN AGE of EXPLAINING RATIONALLY the causes of things.

Humanity forgot these GIANTS for centuries, now called "The DARK AGES" and deservedly so, and also called "THE AGE OF FAITH!"

Eventually Humanity REDISCOVERED THESE BRILLIANT ANCIENT GREEKS, the 100 or 1000 giants that REALLY CHANGED THE WORLD, and that is why you do not wear skins and kill animals with clubs to feed yourself today, and you live not in some decrepit hut but in a small A/C'd paradise instead.

Sir Isaac NEWTON admitted, giant that he was himself, that he was "STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS" and that helped him IMMENSELY to see further and make his discoveries and his achievements.

" Why should we expect things to act in certain ways if we live in a chance universe?"

"A chance universe" may appear so to some, but is sure not agreed to by others. WHat looks like chance (the outcome of a coin toss, heads or tails) to you, is in reality FULLY PREDICZTABLE if you are proficient in the laws of Physics and have all thhe relevant data (forces on the coin, angles at which they are applied, etc). AS EInstein correctly understood, there are NO porobabilities in Real Life. SOmething either HAPPENS or DOES NOT HAPPEN. We just use probability as a convenient tool to express the degree of likelihood for an event before it happens (eg, will it rain tomorrow at noon in a specific location)

"In Jesus Christ Who is the Essence of all Wisdom and Knowledge,"'

There is cartainly no proof for this claim. Jesus was sure a great Religious Leader and Moralist, BUT he sure was NO SCIENTIST of any kind. If he was interested, he might be a good one, but we will never know.

Do not confuse belief with knowledge and proof.

You don’t have to distort the teachings of Muhammad to use them for violence. If you want to use the teachings of Jesus, the Son of God, for violence, you have to distort them. For me, that makes the message of Jesus superior to the message of Muhammad.

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus was humble and meek He did not have to go around saying He was God. The works He did showed that He was God. He forgave sin, calmed the wind and the sea, feed 5,000 men plus woman and children with five loaves of bread and two fish. The prophet Isaiah clearly foretold that a Child would be born that would be the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:5)."

Where does Jesus say he is doing the work? Read carefully:

Right before he performed his biggest miracle, he made sure that people understood that GOD in heaven is doing the work.

"41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me"
(John 11:41-42)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30) [peace be upon Jesus, a true prophet who did what GOD commanded him to do]

You need more?

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." Luke 11:20

Alethia wrote:
"Jesus is God’s only begotten Son of God"

Have you forgot already about prophet David?
Read (Psalm 2:7)
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (DAVID), Thou art my Son; this day have I BEGOTTEN thee."

You should be able to understand that the word begotten is not that special anymore???

Even Peter made it so clear that Jesus is a MAN sent by GOD. Read:
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22)

For the rest of your comments, read:
Genesis: 6:2-4
Exodus: 4:22
Jeremiah: 31:9
Romans: 8:14

Good night!

alethia dont doubt your good intentions- i also beleive that the intentions one reads with colors their perception- the principle of the observer changing what is being observed- (empirically reasoned) and thats why i like talking with you because i trust your good intentions- even if my reaction is initially defensive or less than sterling i have suspicion for your good intentions which tempers my responses.

one can read scripture with the presupposition that there is a God, but my eyes ee differently for i have no presupposition that Jesus(ata) is actually God, i spent years seing it with eyes that believed Jesus(ata) is God, but could never correlate his words with that meaning.

nopw a greek translation of the OT clearly wont work- so monogenes or not its not applicBLE TO THE STATED SCRIPTURE.oops
monotheists view that as we are ALL children of god.

if Jesus(ata)npre-abrahamic, why did Mary have him circumcised in the abrahamic manner?
why was the lineage of Jesus(ata) even through joseph, who had nothing to do with is begetting?
luke 3:23 joseph son of heli
matt 1:16 joseph son of jacob

wouldnt gabriel (or God) have clued her into the divine nature of her son? if she was brave enough to proclaim the spiritual nature of his birth, surely she would have followed through on the natural specialness of Jesus(ata) and disregarded these rules designed for man- but maybe not-

do you know in the Qur'an Jesus(ata) spoke as a babe in arms?

so for me this psalms quoting is not enough- the fact that it was reinterperted as support for something doesnt prove it iether, but thats ok.

also you keep quoting thomas but why do you never quote the gospel of thomas? if he is so important in the proof of the godhood of Jesus(ata) it would see that his gospel would support this.

now if you discount the gospel of thomas, do you also discount his ability to recognize or state the God in Jesus(ata) how is it that he didnt recognize it immediately and why should we trust his impaired judgement as proof?

anyway, how about the trial before the sanhedrins and the seeming feeling of abandonment that Jesus(ata) expressed at the last moments of his earthly life?

did you see your movie?

peace

o also before abraham was I AM - I AM is the name that God gave to himself in the OT-

before abraham existed, God existed- would seem the proper way to interpert it.

as for Jesus(ata) asking for God to glorify him, this seems inconsistent with the humility he always showed- (that was your first statement the humbleness of Jesus(ata)

Dear Victoria,

I agree with you about the personal attacks. I never said that I did not use reason. I believe that God is the precondition for reason meaning that without Him reason would not be possible. As a Christian I want to reason form the scriptures and with a presupposition that God exists. I hold to this presupposition because it best fits the real world we live in. Some will contend that they do not presuppose anything when they reason but that is not true. For example the atheist presupposes that nature is all that there is and that all one can know is what one can observe. This is fatal, however, because this does not fit the world we live in. Take reason for example, have you ever observed a molecule of reason? Or how about love, has anyone ever observed love under a microscope? The atheist then cannot account for the abstract would. He or she tries to explain the world with reason he or she cannot observe while at the same time saying that nature is all that there is. This is a contradiction.

Jesus was humble and meek He did not have to go around saying He was God. The works He did showed that He was God. He forgave sin, calmed the wind and the sea, feed 5,000 men plus woman and children with five loaves of bread and two fish. The prophet Isaiah clearly foretold that a Child would be born that would be the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:5).

Jesus is God’s only begotten Son of God. In Greek, “monogenes,” “only unique Son,” "one of a kind." Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. However, He is the only Son of God of His kind. This is stated in the Old Testament (OT) and is fulfilled in the New Testament (NT). The OT: “I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you” (Psalm 2:7).

The NT:

“And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm” "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you' (Acts 13:32-33).

Jesus was with the Father for all eternity. Some verses that speak of His existence before He came to earth are:
“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).
“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed” (John 17:5).

Jesus put on human flesh and became 100% man while at the same time remaining 100% God. He did this to fulfill His promise to die for sin on behalf of humankind and then to conquer death on behalf of humankind.

What do you think Jesus is telling Thomas here?
8Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

I have to use scripture. I do not want you to think I am making things up.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

Alethia wrote:

"Okay, who was the Child that was born that is called "Everlasting Father" and "Mighty God?" How much clearer does it need to be?"

Let's assume the answer is not known to that question, what right do you have to say this applies to Jesus? I say none.

"How much clearer does it need to be?"

The only thing clear to me is that you just won't see what the scripture (not the church) "really" says. Everytime you bring a new batch of bible verses, I showed you what they mean and you never come back with a meaningful answer. The verses that I quote to you are beyond interpretation and are spoken directly by Jesus. Yet, you always come back, out of disperation, with new questionable texts.

There is ONE question that you have to ask yourself:

Are you willing to accept that the bible is full of contradictions that led you to where you are today or will you do something about it?

If you really are serious about religious knowledge, you cannot restrict yourself to the teaching of the church. Think of "Jesus" said and focus on them. Make a project out of it, but you need to study the "old testament" in order to understand the context of each verse and the metaphores used.

If you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing, I will have to cover more topics you really don't wish me to get closer to. This time, I will be the one quoting the bible!

although you say that you dont use your own reasoning, youve written several paragraphs using nothing but reasoning, which is fine- its good to use tyour brain to figure out the meanings of what you read- it is why ALLAH gave us intelligence-to make distinctions between truth and lies etc..

also i think its indelicate for : to say alethia and victoria are fanatics- i dont recall ever degrading any scientists or atheists or christians or anyone--- we are trying to keep these conversations above the level of personal insults because that only elicits emotional responses and drives reason from the conversation- also it implies that the person who is making the "observation" is reacting from an emotional need to claim some superiority when- in reality- name calling drags everything down with it.
keep it above board

does it mean then, from this passage-that when the sanhedrin accuesed Jesus(ata) of blasphemy according tho their own law- that they were right and he was claiming to be God? even though he told them explicitly he was God's son?
Wht didnt he state that he was God?
he knew their intentions- he had already agreed to drink the cup that God had sent to him- to follow God's will. wouldnt this have been the time for him to declare his godship and claim his due?
he clearly had nothing to lose...
but instead he claimed pointedly that he was God's son- was he lying? playing with words? or was he simply stating the truth?

also there is no reconciliation- no rationale to justify his "last words"
eli eli sabachatani lama- my god my god why have you forsaken me-

if he knew that this was his fate, and he accepted it as gods will- why at the last moment of truth-
would his faith waver to such an incredible degree??

im not asking for a bunch of scripture to sift through, but honestly interested in your personal reasoning with these seeming incongruities...peace

Dear Friend,

Okay, who was the Child that was born that is called "Everlasting Father" and "Mighty God?" How much clearer does it need to be?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Thanks for quoting this verse the interpretation is found in the full context of scripture. Jesus is saying that Christians will have division with non-believers even to there own family members. He is also saying that our love for Him (God) must be more than for our own parents and children. That is why I tell my children to love God more than me He is perfect and I am not. It is interesting that you chose this passage because it highlights the truth that Jesus is above all earthly beings. He is God. Jesus uses the sword metaphorically here and is not speaking of an actual sword. Paul does this also when he speaks of the spiritual battle between good and evil. Note the sword is the word of God. He writes:

The Whole Armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20)
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

And the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 4:11-13)

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The verse you quoted reminds me of the division that is caused between those who believe and those who do not. Jesus is the one who divides the believer from the unbeliever. I guess the latter is true for you and that is why you are against what I am saying. I do not fear you or any other person. I fear (reverence) God who owns my soul.

Verse in Context (Matthew 10:28-39)

28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[f] 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?[g] And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

In Jesus Alone,

Alethia

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In the bible, where are the quotes that showed Jesus being called any of these names?

How many time Jesus was called the "Wonderful Counselor": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Mighty God": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Everlasting Father": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Prince of Peace": Zero

The verse is either wrong, an addition, or misinterpreted! Is this another contradiction or misunderstanding?

How can you call Jesus the "prince of peace" when he said:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Alethia: You sound like a very devoted person. I really want you to have another look at the bible.

Alethia:

I say to you what Jesus said again:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

Jesus is asking YOU, don't you know what God means when (and if) it is attributed to him? Don't you know it means a mighty prophet! Don't you know what "worship" means when it is attributed to him or any other prophet? It means follow him and adhore him. When GOD told Moses that he is God to the pharoe and Aron will be his prophet. Does this mean pharoe and Aron should worship Moses? Or does it mean follow him to the heart? When early Muslims used to say to prophet Mohamed "I will sacrifice myself and my parent for you", did that mean they worshiped him or just adhored him more than anything else in their lives?

ALETHIA: The bible is either sending a "conflicting messages" regarding the use of the word "God" or you have to believe in the true meaning (as I explained to you) of the word based on the direct evidence from the bible.

Jesus is asking you one more time: Don't you know what the word means here?

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

He used the Jew's language and metaphores. When Thomas said (if it was said indeed) "My Lord and my God!", he obviously meant what any Jew will say to a highly annointed judge or rabbi. Jesus didn't think in any other term because he expected them to know what they are talking about. He responded properly (John 10:34) when for the first time he saw the Jews twisting the meaning in front of him. So he responded almost sarcastically, don't you know what it means when it is written in YOUR book that "I said, Ye are gods"!

Dear Victoria,

What poem?

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

I just take the scripture for its intended meaning. For example, sometimes there is figurative language which is easily recognized and sometimes there is historical narrative. Again, this is easily recognized. The Bible has parables, proverbs, historical narrative, epistles, apocalyptic writings, poetry, prophecy, and a book of lament. I read each type of scripture keeping this in mind.

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

As for my scientist friend I have a few questions. What makes the scientific method possible? Why should we expect things to act in certain ways if we live in a chance universe?

In Jesus Christ Who is the Essence of all Wisdom and Knowledge,

Alethia

Dear Friend,

I am looking at the scripture in its historical context. Jesus is the Mighty God who was born of woman, the Everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6). You cannot get a clearer statement on Jesus being God. Unless you want to cut it out of the Bible because it does not fit your idea of whom Jesus is. Jesus received worship form the disciples when He gave His great commission in Matthew 28. Thomas called Him. "My Lord and my God" when He realized just who Jesus was. Jesus did not correct Thomas but instead let Thomas marvel at what he had just come to understand.

John 20:27-29
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Word is God and with God at the same time and the Word became Flesh

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it…14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
If this does not say Jesus is God what does it say?

In the Love of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father Jesus,

Alethia

time for 'on faith' to ask another question. what is the cause of war: is it layered in triplicate from ireland, isreal and iraq; religion? or is it reality, ignorance that speaks 'you have invaded my fathers house and i live to die for a cause, and i will go to heaven, only after i personally escort you to hell?'

ALETHIA and VICTORIA:

One of the major errors that our christian brothers fall into is the interpretation of the bible based on a word by word english translation. I can find some execuses for them to be so confused. At the same time, I believe that GOD made it this way as a "miracle" and a clear testimony to the truth of the Islamic belief that Jesus was only sent to the Israelites. Jesus used their language, metaphores, and parables to prove that his message started and will end with them, to the day of judgement. The bible should be looked at in that context.

To give you an example (a very clear one I might add), I ask, when was the most important time when Jesus had the chance to say that he is a god that should be worshipped and that he is one of the three images of one God? I say when the Jews confronted him and "accused" him of saying that he is god! The christian brothers actually jump in joy that Jesus was accused of that crime and they actually take it as a proof that he is god! But "in the language of the Jews", people were called gods (meaning godly people or judges among them). Here are some examples:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

Jesus here is referring to the verse:
"I said, 'you are gods'" Psalm 82:6

Also GOD gave Moses the name God:

"The LORD said to Moses, Behold, I make you as God to Pharaoh [to declare My will and purpose to him]; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet." Exodus 7:1

In essense, the word God when assigned to people, in the language/metaphore of the Jews, it meant messanger from God and a person that have been given the authority from GOD to carry His message and His will on earth. Moses, Jesus, and some Jews actually possesed that quality and earned that name "by GOD's permission".

Every single text of the bible must be looked at in the context of what it meant to the Jews, not to what the church wants you to believe. This fact, as demonstrated by evidence from the bible, shows how deeply misguided the christian masses are. Islam came 600 years after Jesus to re-direct humanity into the original path that Ibraham, Moses, Jacob, Jesus, and all other prophets have taught their followers. All the changes in the books before Islam needed to be highlighted and to make the message clear enough to everyone so that you can't argue in front of GOD the almighty claiming that no one warned you. The duty of Muslims is NOT to convert people to Islam, but rather explain the message and the truth. It is upto each invidual to find the way for himself/herself. I leave you with these two quotes:

From the Quran: "Let there be no complusion in religion". You won't find any explicit declaration like this in any other scripture!

Prophet Mohamed said: "The example of me and all the other prophets is like a very nice house built out stones. People will look at it and wonder, if only for this missing rock in that house, it would have been perfectly built. I am that rock!" He equates himself with all the others and asserts that ALL have come to build the same religion/house of GOD!

This forum is an utter failure.

Besides of the tons of misinformation posted, it has largely degenerated into posts evenly split between two fanatics, Alethia and Victoria.

No wonder most other posters have quietly gone away.

Hopefully people will TRY Science. It is Far More difficult than paroting pieces from so-called Holy books, so it is not for everybody.

Science is the answer to the world's misery. Science has ALREADY worked WONDERS that people could not even IMAGINE a century ago, and in many cases, 10-20 years ago!

ALETHIA Am i mistaken or do you have a more symbolic or broad interpertation of scripture? you dont seem tohave a literal view (which im all infavor of when it comes to the bible.) now, i do okay with the broad view- it was in my literal interpertations that i started having problems. my interpertation of the Qur'an for instance- tends to be a great deal more literal- now as far as the councilof nicea and
the doctrine of the trinity- it was developed in 326
and there are lots of stories of intrigue and even asassinations of bishops opposed tothe trinitarian idea. the thing is the whole concept on only a very few scripture-(some believed to have been added but im not getting into that- and without these very few lines- the idea falls apart.

i went through my bible and underlined every instance where the Jesus(ata) called himself or referred to his humanity- his "manness" i made that word up- and it was over a hundred. i never even thought about a computer at that time and ive done several bible searches and it seems they are cwensored to filter out some searches, like verses that i have memorized dont show up in searches for specific words etc. i honestly havent even tried to use the computer for the Qur'an, instead just studying books- i love books-

really lovely poem- it sounds biblical and i assume you know thats a compliment!
peace and come back with lots of inspirational energy and fill us with a glow from your movie
peace

one very nice custom muslims have is when they meet they give each other the kiss of peace-
i know Jesus(ata) told his followers to greet each other with the kiss ofpeace but this seems to not be the custom now-

once atr my mosque after 911 we invited a bunch of christians and jews for soome shindig or other and i greeted each and every lady with kisses on both cheeks- they laughed at me for awhile over that one.
so as one of the people of the book i leave you with the kiss of
peace

Dear Victoria,

I do not know what questions I did not answer. Perhaps I missed a post. I do use reason when I answer you and I must use the Bible in presenting an argument. I do not think that is unreasonable.

Jesus is the law giver and the judge. He spoke with authority. Matthew records,

When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law (Matthew 7:28-29).

He is God Almighty. Since you do not believe that you have problems with His words in Luke.

The Lord is a Man of war and He will judge all unrighteousness. If He did not punish sin He would not be a good God. That is why God tells us to take up the cause of the weak and afflicted. To help those who cannot help themselves against the wicked.

Many times the Lord is with us but we will not enlist His help. We will not trust Him for the victory. Although it does not say it in the text I think that the men of Judah did not trust the Lord and feared the chariots of iron. Much like the spies who did not trust the Lord when they spied out the land of Canaan.

The Gnostic gospels were rejected because they denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The Apostle John taught against the false teachings of the Gnostics so why would Gnostic gospels be included in the Bible. As for the Apocrypha they were not considered scripture. For example, the book of Macabees is a good history book but not scripture.

People have been trying to tear my faith down since the day I believed. The Lord is my strength and my shield. He comforts me in times of trouble. I can trust Him always. Since He saved me 19 years ago He has always been faithful even when I am weak.

Have a good night Victoria.

In Jesus’ everlasting Arms,

Alethia

For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
13As a father shows compassion to his children,
so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.
14For he knows our frame;[a]
he remembers that we are dust.

15As for man, his days are like grass;
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
and its place knows it no more.
17But the steadfast love of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,
and his righteousness to children's children,
18to those who keep his covenant
and remember to do his commandments.
19The LORD has established his throne in the heavens,
and his kingdom rules over all.

20Bless the LORD, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21Bless the LORD, all his hosts,
his ministers, who do his will!
22Bless the LORD, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the LORD, O my soul!

i just reread my entry i dont mean to imply youre dishonest, sorry it might sound that way i apologize

If you pray for me thats nice alethia, pray for my health or my entrance to paradise, please tho when a cheristian says they will pray for you there is implied that they know better and will pray for someone to "come to Jesus(ata). ive never left Jesus(ata) so you understand that is not a good prayer. promise you wont do that as it is not necessary.

the bible didnt satisfy me for so many reasons.
ive put specific questions to you.
but you ignore them.
read br. mohammeds paragraph on abrogations
i didnt say i became muslim by reading one passage in the bible- i said through 2 hard years of prayer.

18% of muslims in the worls are middle eastern, so
there are other views.

alethia, ive had some of the best philisophical minds try and describ the trinity, and ive never had one really do it, to my satisfaction or theirs. its a mystery is not good enough
a special relationship from god can be had without it...Jesus(ata) managed didnt he?
there are so many questions you havent even attempted honestly to answer or even acknowledge that its pointless to ask more questions to be ignored. its ok ive been down this road countless times and i knew you didnt have the answers.
how do you consider being kept in the flesh being saved?
its my fault i asked for at least one response, and one is what i got.
i dont know maybe ill know in heaven is hardly an answer.
what i have against cut and pastes is they are unconscious and replace the exchange of actual thinking. i never read cut and pastes. they are intellectually lazy way to communicate and i give them as much energy as the person did when they clicked and sent.

alright ill give you one- both from matthew

matt 5:22 whoever shall say thou fool shall be in danger of hellfire.

matt23:17 ye fools and blind.
both spoken by Jesus(ata)
does that mean Jesus(ata) condemns himself to the hellfire? or is he above the laws of God somehow?
either interpertation is, well the Jesus(ata) i know had humility and never presented himself as above God or his laws

Jesus(ata) was not a hypocrite to say something for others and not apply it to himself.

i can copy and paste reams of pages on contradictions in the bible,but i dont want to tear down the bible- its a destructive exercise and does nothing to help anyone. however, i also dont want that destructive energy directed at me because it drains and saddens me and prevents me from having productive conversations.

the years that people spend arguing over countless points in the bible, why not just read a book that requires no argument because it is clear?

imagine if Jesus(ata) had laid out clear rules of engagement of war? with all the wars waged in his name, if he were God surely he could have foresaw this. did he just not see fit to give instruction to future generations?

someone posted some of the rules in a post before, and though they convemiently cut the ayat(verses) off, and plain just skipped over one -191-nothing193- says clearly that only if someone is fought against, then a muslim is allowed TO DEFEND THEMSELF- but as soon as the AGGRESSION stops so should they stop fighting.
EXODUS15:3 THE LORD IS A MAN OF WAR
??? what is that?
judges 1:19 aND THE lORD WAS WITH jUDAH and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountains, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron. (?)
does that mean God cant control his own creation? Is God susceptible or powerless against the strenghth of iron???

and these are just snippets sitting beside me i didnt even try.

and the apocrypha, and barnabus and thomas- what of their gospels?

see, it doesnt feel good when someone tears up something you believe in does it?

id rather discuss why islam is my religion.

its not likely that ill go see that movie because my husband is a big spoiled baby and always wants to see everything.
the billboards told hi to go see the davinci code, so we went to see it. he fell asleep after 1 hour and it was 3 hours long.
id read a book some years before called holy blood holy grail and everything from the book was in the movie. then my dad told me ron brown was being sued by the same authors. michael hart i think.

its all just a massive rationale to prove that the kings of england were from the family lineage of Jesus(ata) anyway.

ill throw the suggestion to him but were both so busy we dont get to the movies much.
but if it comes out on video ill be sure to see it.

because ALLAH didnt want people to worship Mohammed (pbuh) like a god, his image is not shown but theres a movie called the messenger that is i think ok. thanks for the ear, im dizzy from cleaning my bathroom with chemicals so im going to go for now peace and always nice talking to you

Dear Gaby,

I go to a non denominational church. This brings up an interesting truth about what the Church actually is. The church is not a building. The Church is people who believe in Jesus Christ. The people of God are "living stones." Peter put it this way,

"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:

'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame'"(1 Peter 2:4-6).

I usually wait until movies come out on DVD also but not this one. Have a great weekend!

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

I woke up last night and thought of you and I prayed for you. I do think you are a nice person.

I have talked with many Middle Eastern Muslims over the years and that is where I got that idea that they thought I was bringing God down by saying that Jesus is God.

Everything a believer needs is in the Bible I do not need to look to another book. Yes, I do believe in one God and I have no problem with the Shema. I have laid out that case above. Just quoting the Shema does not refute that there are three persons that are one God. In fact, I think in the Shema itself is the idea of diversity and unity. That is the three persons are unified as one God. As I pointed out above, “in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (singular). Like, let us (plural) make man in our own image”(Genesis 1:26). Again I have made the case that part of being made in the image of God is the relational aspect of our nature. In other words God made us with the ability to relate because He is a God of relationship from all eternity. If you want to see what a perfect relationship is about, look at the model of God the Son and God the Father. In all due respect you have not addressed this issue and you have not demonstrated that it is implausible. Quoting the Shema does not show the Trinity to be untrue.

I do not know why is appears that two of Paul’s conversion accounts differ when speaking about Paul’s traveling companions but I will find out when I am in heaven. Maybe some heard the voice and others did not among his companions. Anyway, that is not enough to shake my faith in the mountains and mountains of truth contained in the scriptures.

It is interesting that you bring this up in light of the fact that Muhammad made a provision for contradictions in the Qur’an with the doctrine of abrogation (Naskh). That is why on one hand Muhammad could say nice things about the people of the book and then he would say, “make no friends of Christians and Jews” on the other hand. There are contradictions in the Qur’an. For example,

“No change can there be in the Words of Allah” (Sura 10:64)
”There is none that can alter the Words of Allah” (Sura 6:34)

“When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

I guess “I understand not” why Allah is changing his revelation. I guess making a statement like that is enough to appease us all. Now the contradiction above has to do with God’s nature. Can Allah’s word be altered or not?

Was Pharaoh drowned or not?

Pharaoh was Spared
"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
Pharaoh was not Spared
Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

As for your charge that I am cutting and pasting would you rather I type each verse I quote from the Bible and the Qur’an. I would be a fool to do that when I have acess to both online. You make this charge as if it diminishes the arguments (arguments in a classical sense not arguing) I have been making. Victoria, is it not correct to document and quote sources in making one’s case?

As for your feeling that the Bible led you to the Qur’an through Proverbs 3:5-6. Why would you trust the Bible to do that? You said it is corrupted.

Are you going to see the Nativity?

In Jesus Grace,
Alethia

i like this website, i spend most of my time reading what other people very different (but not really) than myself's opinions and experiences.
but this evangelical crusade is getting on my nerves. ive tried to rise above it- but it seems im letting myslef get sucked into it in trying to defend some ludicrous assertions against my faith.
thats not why im here.

i dont believe that people are going to change their religion because someone attacks it, as a matter of fact most attacks have led me deeper into consolidating my own beliefs and researching so now in real life i can probably effect a better dawa.

my religion is a record of what i do mostly not what i say. and here i do nothing but say words, which have their power but i dont want to get into an endless competition of your scripture versus my scripture. im going to go pet my kitties now.
peace all

here is that verse-
PRVOERBS 3:5-6 TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
6)IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AND HE WILL MAKE YOUR PATHS STRAIGHT.

It was prayers like this that led me to the straight path of islam,

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE MOST
MERCIFUL.
ALL THE PRAISES AND THANKS ARE TO ALLAH, THE LORD
OF THE ALAMIN(MANKIND AND ALL THAT EXISTS)
THE MOST GRACIOUS THE MOST MERCIFUL
THE ONLY OWNER OF THE DAY OF RECOMPENSE
YOU (ALONE) WE WORSHIP AND YOU (ALONE)
WE ASK FOR HELP.
>>>> GUIDE US TO THE STRAIGHT WAY <<<<<<
THE WAY OF THOSE ON WHOM YOU HAVE BESTOWED YOUR
GRACE. NOT THE WAY OF THOSE WHO EARNED
ANGER, NOR OF THOSE WHO WENT ASTRAY.

I had intended to quote the exact scripture and reference it there because i paraphrased it from memory before- but i thought you might like to see Al-Fatihah, the prayer above which unifies all muslis in purpose and intent it is said countless millions of times every day by millions of muslims all over the world in every nationality- dont you think GOD wants to give unity to his peoples? He is not a God od disorder and chaos-

so GABY yes, i do need a prophet's revelation- not to be secure in the knowledge that there IS A GOD but TO KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS OF ME- WHAT IS THE HIGHEST BEHAVIOR THAT I CAN ASPIRE TO.. AND WHAT IS THE BEST FORM TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM!

IVE TRIED THEM ALL- WORSHIPFULLY AND RESPECTFULLY,
AND THE CONSISTENT AND UNWAVERING AND FOCUSED ONE POINTED CONCENTRATION AND DESPAIRING LONGING OF MY HEART AND SOUL HAS LED ME IRREVOCABLY TO ALLAH- TO THE SEMINAL FEATURE OF THE ONENESS OF GOD.

ALETHIA- AS A JEW JESUS(ATA) PRAYED MANY TIMES EVERY DAY THE SHEMA-
HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD!!!!!!

WILL YOU PRAY DIFFERENTLY THAN JESUS(ATA)?????
DO YOU PRESUME TO KNOW A BETTER WAY TO PRAY THAN JESUS(ATA) HIMSELF?
oopscaps again, sorry.

are you going to try and tell me that Jesus(ata) didnt pray this?

here is my challenge for you alethia and anyone else... settle this in your heart, not in words words words driven by the ego and desire for spiritual one-upsmanship. spiritual pride is the last vestige of pride in a spiritual evolution but the hardest to overcome.

what is your interpertation of what revelations repeatedly tells you to overcome?

it was in READING THE BIBLE THAT I BECAME MUSLIM!!

when i ws reading that Jesus(ata) would send a comforter- i was struck by a thunderbolt of certainty that the comforter is Mohammed(pbuh)

ask God to continue to lead you to the straight path that HE wants you to worship him with...
not the path that you have grown comfortable with

if you are sure of your faith and christianity the prayer will only lead you deeper into your faith.

how can you go wrong with this? it is a win win situation.

br. mohammed again thanks you bring a deeper understanding to those with ears to hear

ALETHIA- You start your post saying you know muslims think a certain way- because we are bringing god down to less than he is? you are wrong. you take a tiny thing and try to make a bad spin on it.
doesnt the bible say- do not lean on your own understanding but instead trust in God? in psalms

youll never hear me speaking for christians, snakehandlers, buddhists or anyone and stating i presume to know what they think- i dont presume to know what muslims think or anyonwe else-only myself.
instead ofmaking an assertion from what you IMAGINE
i will elaborate- ALLAH is beyond the limiting and BRINGING DOWN TO A HUMAN LEVEL- HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE COUNTLESS so we cannot with our egos limit them to a human dimension- trying to HUMANIZE the nature of ALLAH does not elevate but rather denigrates Him.

you mix up your scripture hiding old testament "prophecies" that not all agree are in reference to Jesus(ata), even among christians, with new testament, well it doesnt matter ive seen this many times. it requires an initial agreement as to the interpertation of the old testament to make it make sense.

One thing , please stop saying that Muhammed (pbuh) said this or that.
By continuing to deman the Prophet(pbuh) YOU DO NOT build up any credence.
If you didnt know, the Qur'an was sent as the words of ALLAH through the angel Jibreel(gabriel) to the Prophet(pbuh).
The Prophet(pbuh) did not make these statements but relayed them to mankind.

As to the corruption of the bible, i gave 3 scriptures in direct and total contradiction to each other concerning the conversion of paul on the road to damascus, 3 separate and differing accounts of the same event.

conveniently you have skipped over addressing this.

also why did the scripture that is known as the books of the apocrypha-(over 10) get thrown out of the bible?
how can the bible denounce itself?
does that mean they were wrong?
will there be other books proclaimed wrong in the future?
who decides what is wrong to throw it out?

why are there 2 versions of daniel? which one is right?
and 2 versions of jeremiah chapter 6?

and 6 EXTRA BOOKS OF ESTHER?
if the bible is not corrupted was it corrupt before when it contained these books?
why are there over 20 translations of the bible that disagree with each other?

you capitalize the word SON in your post but it is not capitalized in the bible.

i have answered at length and in detail any assertions youve made using your own bible to do so, will you finally answer even one of the many questions ive asked?

im not interested in another cut and paste of offense and attacks against islam, but have been waitong patiently for some defense of the many points ive brought up- but you remain silent in regards to.

as ive said- there are countless horrific verses from the bible regarding exhortations to dash childrens heads against the ground, and plunder and steal peoples belongings, and raping married women!!!!
im not posting them because it is unseemly.

but please address at least ONE of the points!
just one!

if you respond with another cut and paste angainst islam i will know for sure you have no defense and that will , in my eyes , be an admission on your part that the bible is indeed corrupted.

It seems to me that the question of whether or not Islam is a violent religion misses the current reality.
The field of Islam has been effectively taken over by those Islamic teachers who invoke and teach it as justifying this mindless killing of innocent people,suicide bombers,followers who get on airplanes to blow up as many innocent souls as possible all in the name of ALLAH.
As a pragmatic matter, as long as those who believe that Islam is non- violent are unable to convince the clerics who advocate violence that they are not acting in accordance with Islam, the rest of us must regard the most effective voices of Islam as essentially violent and take steps to prevent them from killing the rest of us.

Alethia,

You shock me! Does that mean you don't attend church?

No, I'm not going to see the Nativity story. I'm not to go to the movies much. I'll wait unitl it comes out on DVD and then see it.

Dear Gaby,

I am simply a Christian. Faith is only as strong as the object of faith. My faith is not in things that are temporal. My faith is in the living God who is clearly seen in all that He has made. He is revealed in His creation, He is revealed in His word, and He was revealed in His first coming. The works He did fulfilled that which was spoken of Him before He even came. For example, the Isaiah 53 passage I quoted above described His crucifixion hundreds of years before He came. If you click on the link I provided above you can read the prophecy in totality. Jesus fulfilled I all things that I highlighted above and more. So as you can see it is not, "blind faith." What is the object of your faith?

God bless you and have a great weekend. Are you going to see The Nativity movie? I am very excited about the movie.

In Jesus' Rescuing Power,

Alethia

Theory of abrogation invalidated by the Holy Qur’an
“The principle on which the theory of abrogation is based is unacceptable, being contrary to the clear teaching of the Qur’an. A verse is considered to be abrogated by another when the two cannot be reconciled with each other; in other words, when they appear to contradict each other. But the Qur’an destroys this foundation when it declares that no part of it is at variance with another: “Will they not then meditate on the Qur’an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy” (4:82). It was due to lack of meditation that one verse was thought to be at variance with another; and hence it is that in almost all cases where abrogation has been upheld by one person, there has been another who, being able to reconcile the two, has repudiated the alleged abrogation.
Sayuti on abrogation:
It is only among the later commentators that we meet with the tendency to augment the number of verses thought to have been abrogated, and by some of these the figure has been placed as high as five hundred. In this connection, Sayuti, one of the well-known commentators, says: “Those who multiply (the number of abrogated verses) have included many kinds –one kind being that in which there is neither abrogation, nor any particularization (of a general statement), nor has it any connection with any one of them, for various reasons. And this is as in the words of God: ‘And spend out of what We have given them’ (2:3); ‘And spend out of what We have given you’ (63:10); and the like. It is said that these are abrogated by the verse dealing with charity (zakat), while it is not so, they being still in force” Sayuti himself brings the number of verses which he thinks to be abrogated down to twenty-one, in some of which he considers there is abrogation, while in others he finds that it is only the particularization of a general injunction that is effected by a later verse; but he admits that there is a difference of opinion even about these.”
“The rule of interpretation of the Quran is given in the Book itself,
“He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive __ they are the basis of the Book __ and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it their own interpretation. And none do mind except men of understanding.” (3:6).
The following rules may, therefore, be laid down:
-- The principles of Islam are enunciated in decisive words in the Qur’an; and, therefore, no attempt should be made to establish a principle on the strength of an allegorical passage, or of words susceptible of different meanings.
-- The explanation of the Book should in the first place be sought in the Qur’an itself; for, whatever it has stated briefly, or merely hinted at, in one place, will be found expanded and fully explained elsewhere in it.
-- It is very important to remember that the Qur’an contains allegory and metaphor along with what is plain and decisive, and the only safeguard against being misled by what is allegorical or metaphorical is that the interpretation of such passages must be strictly in consonance with what is laid down in clear and decisive words, and not at variance therewith.
When a law or principle is laid down, any statement carrying a doubtful significance, or a statement apparently opposed to the law so laid down, must be interpreted subject to the principle enunciated. Similarly that which is particular must be read in connection with and subject to more general statements.”( Religion Of Islam_-Maulana Muhammad Ali.

Alethia,

Because of your fervor and blind faith in the Bible I cannot help myself, I just have to ask.

Exactly what sect do you belong to?

Correction: Muhammad came along 600 years later.

In Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

Hope all is well with you.

Quote from Victoria
“One thing that people maybe dont remember or know about the Qur'an is that God is not redundant and does not find it necessary to repeat himself.
( i have to put it in human terms although we dont worship ALLAH as a human or even describe him that way-hence no caps there) the Quran is the correction, the last word- there is only one uncorrupted and perfect version that has been protected by ALLAH for 1400 some
years- even if you dont want to accept it as such- still there are some sublime stories contained within- some about the same biblical prophets”

I know that Muslims say this because they think it is bringing God down to less than He is but that is not the case. Jesus is 100% God while at the same time 100% human. The one thing that none of my Muslim friends have shown me is how Islam can come along 400 years after Jesus and then start changing what He said? I also have not seen any proof that Jesus was a Muslim when Islam did not even exist yet. It is true that Jesus was in complete "submission" to the Father but that does not mean that He was part of the Muslim religion as we have come to know it. That has yet to be proven. The assertion by my Muslim friends that the Bible has been corrupted has never been proven either. Every defense of these assertions that I have heard has been based on falsehoods.

The Old Testament told us the coming of the Messiah beginning in Genesis 3 when God told Satan that the seed of a woman would bruise Satan’s head (Genesis 3:15). God continually restated His promise to send the Messiah throughout the Old Testament. Isaiah 53 recorded how the Messiah would pay for sin by His substitutionary death. It is as follows:

“But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:5-6http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=is%2053;&version=47;).

Also Psalm 2 tells us that Jesus is the begotten Son of God:
“I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:7-12).
Isaiah 9 tells us that this Son would be God:
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus received worship without stopping those who worshipped:
“Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:28-29).

“Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’”

Note: “The name” is singular not “the names” “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” There are three persons here who are one. For us this is part of being made in God’s image. The truth that we are relational is part of being made in God’s image. This is why we can relate to Him in a way no other creatures can. He has had a relationship for all eternity within the three persons of the Godhead.

The Bible tells us that the Messiah would be born from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That He would come from the Jewish tribe of Judah. That He would be a descendant of David (2 Samuel 7:16; Matthew1:1; 2:19). That He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12-13a; Mathew 26:14-15). That the Messiah would be murdered (Daniel 9:26). That His body would not see decay that He would defeat death (Psalm 16:10-11; Acts 2:27). All these things Jesus fulfilled. These truths all demonstrate that the Bible as a whole is a unified message and that Jesus, God the Son would come and die for our sins and rise from the dead.

The Qur’an says none of this is true. If the Qur’an is correct than Christianity is a hopeless religion. If the Qur’an is correct there is no payment for our sins and we who believe in Jesus are hopeless and still in our sins. But Muhammad was not correct and because of Jesus all who believe have had their sins paid for. Because of Jesus all who believe have eternal life because He has risen from the dead.

I have laid out a case throughout this thread with documentation. I have yet to see this done on the other side. Just because Muhammad said these things were not true does not make it so. He came along 400 years after Jesus. He made some very strong statements about Christianity. The only thing the Muslim has to rest on is that Muhammad said Allah told him those things. Why should I believe him when I have a whole body of unified witness about our fall in the garden, the promise of God to send a Savior, the promise that this Savior would die in the place of sinners, and the promise that He would raise from the dead setting that captives free. The only thing I have from Muhammad is assertions charging that these things are not so. There is no proof… not one shred of proof.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

“only strong hadith and strict quran i never heard those ugly stories and are so extrememly out of character for the Prophet(pbuh) that i think maybe they may have some question to their validity” (Victoria) - Another possibility is that you don’t know, or don’t even want to know, consiously or unconsiously, the true character of Muhammed. In other words ... that you are living in denial, instead of accepting the facts.

What I don't understand is why one needs the Bible or Koran to begin with. Why do you need someone else's revelations to be secure in the knowledge that there is a God? And why do you need to worship someone other than him? The Christians get upset when someone says anything bad about Jesus and the Muslims do the same for their Muhammad. Why? You have elevated 2 humans to godlike status and you appear to worship them more than God. Why?

If Islam isn’t violent then why are Islam’s borders and its innards so bloody? The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. I agree with Muslims who claime that “true” Islam (Suffism) is not a violent religion, but is Islam only a religion? No. It’s also a political ideology, which tries to hide its violent behavior behind the religion. Failure to counter this ideology has allowed radical Islam to flourish in the West. Stricter checks should be made to exclude extremist clerics from Western countries.

no i had intended to post alot of horrific bible verses but changd my mind- i was referring to my own posts that i never put- i thought such an action on my part would serve no good purpose. to date i dont believe ive made any personal comments and insha'alla i hope i willnot i was ashamed of my instinct to rejoinder peace the apology was nice tho
but not necessary
but you have to be very careful of your sources too
only strong hadith and strict quran i never heard those ugly stories and are so extrememly out of character for the Prophet(pbuh) that i think maybe they may have some question to their validity
peace

VICTORIA:

If you were addressing my post, I wasn't ugly at all. I am just amazed at the amount of denial on this forum. Unbelievable responses and out of context quotes. Someone has to highlight this issue in the proper manner. I thought I did, may be a little bit harshly. If so, my apologies.

honestly i will find no delight in posting violent and ugly posts- it will serve no good purpose.
may ALLAH give your heart some peace

A SALAAMU ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULAHI WA BARAKATU BROTHER MOHAMMED AHMAD, Thank you for your heavily cited and
indisputable proof of the peaceful nature of Islam.
ALLAH loves not the aggressors.
that says it all
everything is conscientiously referenced and
i hope that you will pop in here again with your knowledge

anonymous i cant follow your posts because 4363 is a meaningless number

i can also post countless scripture out of context, instead let me give a few in context

It is quite amazing to see that christians base their faith on finding faults in others rather than searching for a decent message from their scriptures! As I indicated earlier, Jesus declared, with all the honesty of a prophet, that he was sent to the house of Israel. He even went as far as saying that the Jews were the sheeps he is after, and everyone else is a dog!

"And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."!!!

The quotes need no intrepretation. Yet our friend "Alethia" came up with a nice "tongue and cheek" qualifier! It shows how "brainwashed" you people are. Is it too much to ask from you to "think" and stop repeating the drills!!! Then another revealation from an anonymous poster that "christians actually started calling each others christians in the book of Acts"! The book of Acts has no known author and the earliest date that book was authored was 65 years after Jesus left this earth (look up this fact yourself). Jesus NEVER heared or ordered his disciples to use the word "chritianity". You know why? Because Jesus never intended to come up with a new religion! He said to his disciples many times that he didn't come with any different tradition than Moses'and he told them to wait for the spirit of truth to guide them to all truth. He said "I have many things to tell you but you can't bare them now". He knew they didn't have the capacity. Jesus even got frustrated with them at time. At one instance he told them "Still can't understand my words, ye of little faith". Yes he called his "disciples" of little faith. Jesus teachings were very specific and were fashioned to fit the lifestyle of the Jews at his time.

Why? Why take the truth and flip it on its face like that? Why follow preachers who have nothing to lose but their wealth that they gather from all these brainwashed heads? Why can't you see what's "really written" in the bible? You claim to be a bible believer! I ask you, no I beg you, please read the bible and let your minds share some space with your emotions when you read it. Is this too much to ask?

I truely wish that you open your eyes and think of the day when we all meet in front of the one true God. We will all be asked what we did to warn each others. Oh God, I delivered the message, so be my witness!

Muhammad assassinates poets and poetesses.

These two poets represent others in early Islam.

March 624: Uqba bin Abu Muayt

Uqba mocked Muhammad in Mecca and wrote derogatory verses about him. He was captured during the Battle of Badr, and Muhammad ordered him to be executed. "But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?" Uqba cried with anguish. "Hell," retorted the prophet coldly. Then the sword of one of his followers cut through Uqba’s neck.

March 624: Asma bint Marwan

Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans, and whose husband was named Yazid b. Zayd. She composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. When the prophet heard what she had said, he asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?" A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep.

The following morning, the assassin defied anyone to take revenge. No one took him up on his challenge, not even her husband. In fact, Islam became powerful among his tribe. Previously, some members who had kept their conversion secret now became Muslims openly, "because they saw the power of Islam," so conjectures an early Muslim source that reports the assassination.

In addition to the sources that recount these and other assassinations, the Quran also supports harsh punishments for mockers and insulters (Suras 3:186; 33:57; 33:59-61; and 9:61-63).

The Qur’an says:

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors”. 2:190

"قاتلوا في سبيل الله الذين يقاتلونكم ولا تعتدوا إن الله لا يحب المعتدين" البقرة 190:2

“And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter” 2:191

" وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ وَلاَ تُقَاتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِن قَاتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ كَذَلِكَ جَزَاء الْكَافِرِينَ" البقرة 191:2

“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression”. 2:193

" وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلّهِ فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَانَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ" ابقرة 193:2

“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216

" كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ وَهُوَ كُرْهٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تُحِبُّواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ شَرٌّ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ" البقرة 216:2

Here we see for the first time that war was permissible. Remember that in the earlier days of Islam, war was not allowed. But these verses abrogate the earlier verses, allowing war both in self-defense and against those who the Muslims did not have a treaty with. However, even these verses were in turn abrogated by these later verses:

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

"فَلْيُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ الَّذِينَ يَشْرُونَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا بِالآخِرَةِ وَمَن يُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيُقْتَلْ أَو يَغْلِبْ فَسَوْفَ نُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء"74:4

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا" النساء 89:4

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"لاَّ يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُوْلِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً وَكُـلاًّ وَعَدَ اللّهُ الْحُسْنَى وَفَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء 95:4

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن قُوَّةٍ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدْوَّ اللّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تُظْلَمُونَ" الأنفال 60:8

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ" الأنفال 65:8

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"قَاتِلُوهُمْ يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللّهُ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ وَيُخْزِهِمْ وَيَنصُرْكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَيَشْفِ صُدُورَ قَوْمٍ مُّؤْمِنِين" التوبة 14:9

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُون" التوبة 29:9

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

"قُلْ هَلْ تَرَبَّصُونَ بِنَا إِلاَّ إِحْدَى الْحُسْنَيَيْنِ وَنَحْنُ نَتَرَبَّصُ بِكُمْ أَن يُصِيبَكُمُ اللّهُ بِعَذَابٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ أَوْ بِأَيْدِينَا فَتَرَبَّصُواْ إِنَّا مَعَكُم مُّتَرَبِّصُون" التوبة 52:4

Now, what we see here is this: the Quran orders Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth (all of the earth) by any means. Most Islamic scholars say that one verse of the Quran (9:5) abrogates 124 verses, which are basically all the verses that talk about peace and forgiveness. This is the verse that says:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

"فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ" التوبة 5:9

As we see clearly in this verse (which is commonly called the verse of the sword) there is only one way out for pagans (or infidels) to be spared from being slain. They should repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, i.e. become Muslims. As for people of the book we read the verse in the same sura v. 29, which tells us the way out of being killed “until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

They have to pay protection money and accept to be subdued, i.e. second class citizens, even if they live in their homeland. We see this put into practice in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and all the Middle Eastern countries that were conquered by Muslims in the first 100 years of Islam. The ancestors of the Christians who live there now suffered a lot to stay Christian.

Now, there is a fiqhi rule that has to be taken into consideration when studying this:العبرة بعموم اللفظ لا بخصوص السبب, i.e. what is considered is the absoluteness of the utterance, not the specialization of the reason for the revelation. That is, they follow the letter, not the spirit of the law...

In other words Muslims scholars when they make a judgement they consider the Quran and Mohammad in the light of their meaning not in the light of reasons of revelation.

Mohammad Ahmad,

Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”

Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

The Messenger of Allah called out to them: O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam and you will be safe.” When the answer was unsatisfactory, he told them: “You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land” (4363).

“I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims,” Muhammad declared to ’Umar (4366).

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Pope Benedict’s comments refer to a saying of the Holy Prophet which I quote:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been commanded that I should fight these people until they bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and keep up prayer and pay zakat (obligatory charity). When they do this, their blood and their property shall be safe with me except as Islam requires, and their reckoning is with Allah."1

Regarding such sayings, the Holy Prophet said “My sayings do not abrogate the word of Allah (the Holy Qur’an), but the word of Allah can abrogate my sayings.2

The saying (hadith) quoted above and referred to by the Byzantine emperor begins with the words, I have been commanded (or ordered), and the command to fight is contained in the Holy Qur’an in the following words:

“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed this limit.” (2:190).

Muslims, therefore, could not resort to fighting unless an enemy was the first to assume hostilities. What the Saying means is that fighting begun under these conditions is to cease when the enemy people accept Islam.

Moreover the Holy Quran further specifies: “There is no compulsion in religion (2: 256).” “Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made because they are oppressed” (22:39). “And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors (2:190). “And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah.” (2:193). “And if Allah did not repel some people by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered would have been pulled down”. (22:40). The Holy Quran Uses the Arabic word qital for fighting which is only allowed in self defense and against religious persecution of all faiths. The Arabic word Jihad is not used in the Qur’an for this purpose. The only Jihad the Holy Quran refers to is with it: “And strive against them a mighty striving with it.” (25:52). This means conveying the word of God to other people through peaceful dialogue. It is the only scripture which clearly and categorically states,
“There is no compulsion in religion”.
Islam by its very name is a religion of peace. History bears witness to the fact that the Holy Prophet was the only religious figure in the annals of world history who forgave his persecutors against whom he had fought only in self defense as the word of God had commanded him. When Makkah the city of his blood-thirsty opponents and persecutors was conquered, not a drop of blood was spilt, nor was anyone forced to convert to Islam. He forgave them all by quoting the Qur’anic verse, “No reproof be against you this day.” (12:92).
After quoting the Byzantine emperor the Pope should have pointed out that the Byzantine emperor was wrong. This would have gone a long way in promoting religious dialogue.
Also I would advise the evangelical extremists to study the Holy Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet before engaging in false propaganda and innuendo against Islam and its Holy founder. Last and not the least those who engage in terrorism in the name of Islam and their leaders should learn from the example of the Holy Prophet and study the word of God, rather then follow the ignorant Mullah, or be misled, by the political demagogues.

1 Bu 2:16-Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24 Muhsin Khan.
2 (Al-Mishkat al-Masabih 1:6

PS WHy would i listen to islamic propaganda for bible information? that would be crazy AND stupid!
i have a brain and can read for myself. i dont go to a plumber for heart surgery, i go to the source!

ALETHIA- im happy to see a scripture that says christianity is for all the nations- i dont agree with elitism in religion- now it still doesnt deal with the apparent contradictions- but im not pushing that- it is what it is.
I like the verse on abraham. Mohammed(pbuh) is descended form ishmael-and indeed abrams seed is spread throughout the earth and as many as the stars in the sky. Jesus(ata) and Mohammed(pbuh) are cousins- when asked by the sahaba(companions of the Prophet(pbuh) who would be closest to him in paradise, he crossed his first 2 fingers and said,"Jesus(ata) and I will be like this in paradise."
one of the things that always bothered me and is answered in islam is- sarai was so MEAN and petty in the bible version! i never could reconcile her terrible jealous and spiteful behavior with the wife of a prophet! i mean, sending a woman and her baby off to the desert to die! but it is explained at length in the Qur'an and she was not like that.

One thing that people maybe dont remember or know about the Qur'an is that God is not redundant and does not find it necessary to repeat himself.
( i have to put it in human terms although we dont worship ALLAH as a human or even describe him that way-hence no caps there) the Quran is the correction, the last word- there is only one uncorrupted and perfect version that has been protected by ALLAH for 1400 some
years- even if you dont want to accept it as such- still there are some sublime stories contained within- some about the same biblical prophets-

hey, its only fair, ive read your book!

but no, we dont believe in the divinity of Jesus(ata) but i havent for so many years...
the reaon i couldnt embrace judaism is because it demanded that i renounce Jesus(ata) which i could never do. it would have been a subtraction of my faith- a regression- whereas the Prophet(pbuh) is an addition, a progression of my spiritual evolution.
you really were gracious to GABY and i applaud you for that. humility and passion alethia- thats you.

i moved to new york from chicago last year and had to give away my bibles- i like the feel of a book in my hands and cant get the hang of looking up scripture on the net(no tactile inspiration there- that intangible) i have some ray bradbury inme in that respect- ill be an old lady ranting at the kids- read a book!
i digress as alwys

GOKHAN no separation of secular and sacred in TURKEY???? ARE YOU SERIOUS?? do oyou think im going to go into a mosque and say long live kemalpasha?? look at the fury when those 50 turks were praying in the hagia sophia! even the soccer teams ARE DIVIDED BETWEEN SACRED AND SECULAR. I CANT THINK OF A COUNTRY THAT IS MORE DIVIDED ALONG THOSE LINES THAN TURKEY! SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS oops
now as for muslims believing deceitfully- perhaps delusionally would be more accurate.

personally it never occurred to me to gloat about the popes prayer i was too busy applauding his gracious manners but i can see how some might have such a self glorifying motive- i think it was really beautiful and helped heal the rift and i think the pope did too- did you see the video of the prayer? it was really moving- i saw it on zaman-

but i personally would be really interested to hear about your experiences as a converted christian- were you treated badly? well? i imagine your family must have given you a hard time...possibly..how do i know? maybe you could share with us peace all
GABY IS GABY short for gabriel? i love that name
i had a cat that i wanted to name gabriel but i named galadriel( i made it up) cuz i thought it would be disrespectful to call a cat an angel name
peace dotn i babble on? yes i do

Pope's visit was for political reason since religion on this part of the world. Since there is no separation of Secular and Sacred world over there; his actions/behaviours were his religion according to Muslims.

Muslims took his actions as if he 'submitted' himself to Islam and naturally this creates a reaction of pride in Muslims. How do I know it? I was a Muslim from Turkey and became Christian later and lived among them.

I think Pope went too far to submit Islam instead of keeping balance in his actions. Islamic world would feel strenghted and deceitfully will believe that they have power over Pope. Some of this actions were good but the bad one was turning his face to Kabbe for prayer in a Mosque was the bad one.

An interesting thing happened to me last night. I met a Native American friend of mine and he asked me out of the blue what religion I am. So I told him I belong of the Church of Gaby. He wanted me to elaborate and I explained that my God lives in nature and the beauty that is evident in all living things; that I didn't need to follow an organized religion because I know my own truth. He smiled and told me he is a Calvinist. When I said I thought that was odd, he gently reminded me that his name is Calvin. We found out that our two faith are very much alike.

In Acts 11:26 the disciples were first called christians.
Jesus Christ the personal name of the One whose title gave its nameto the Christian religion. Since "Jesus" was a fairly common name in the first century, distinguishingphrases were used when referring to Him.( Jesus of Nazareth;Jesus,Son of David,the Messiah Jesus;Christ Jesus; and Jesus Christ.

Dear Gaby,

Perhaps I should have said, "I think." You are right it is what I think is true by reading the whole Bible. When you see Jesus in the Gospels he is continually commending the faith of Gentiles. This is in keeping with God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. He tells Abraham that he would be a blessing to the nations. His promise is as follows:

Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. (Genesis 12:1-3).

Jesus also in His commission to the church said:

"Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:16-20).

He tells his disciples to preach His messsage to "all the nations." Therefore, I know God's plan is for all people both Jew and Gentile.

Jesus geneology also has Gentiles included, like Rahab , Ruth the Moabite, and Tamar the Canaanite.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes and God bless

In Jesus' Love and Grace,

Alethia

Evil is the normal state of affairs. The question that one should be asking is that in todays world who is supporting good. The Religions fought their wars through the centuries. In the 20th Century, the anti-religionists had their shot: The Facists and Communists in Europe and the Communist in Asia. These people killed more people than any group in history. Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, etc. were all against religion and killed to impose their rule. At their time, the Christians, Jews and Muslims have been a light for education and science. Christianity and Judaism have evolved and to the extent the Muslims have evolved, there are other Muslims attempting to go back in history. But the bottom line is Religion has given mankind his finer moments.

Just so we can clear up who wrote what, please see tye following:

"The Acts of the Apostles (Greek Praxeis Apostolon) is a book of the Bible, which now stands fifth in the New Testament. It is commonly referred to as simply Acts.

Acts tells the story of the Early Christian church, with particular emphasis on the ministry of the Twelve Apostles and of Paul of Tarsus. The early chapters, set in Jerusalem, discuss Jesus's Resurrection, his Ascension, the Day of Pentecost, and the start of the Twelve Apostles' ministry. The later chapters discuss Paul's conversion, his ministry, and finally his arrest and imprisonment and trip to Rome.

It is almost universally agreed that the author of Acts also wrote the Gospel of Luke. The traditional view is that both the two books were written c. 60 by a companion of Paul named Luke — a view which is still held by many theologians. Alternatively, many modern scholars view the books as having been written by an unknown author at a much later date, sometime between 80 and 150."

Which really means, we have no clue, who wrote what.

Alethia:

"When Jesus had his dialog with the Canaanite woman he was saying to her tongue and cheek,"

By whose authority can you claim that Jesus was "tongue in cheek"? That is pure conjecture on your part.

"The Faith of a Canaanite Woman"

Nowhere in this story did I see any "tongue in cheek" dialogue. You alway want proof from everyone one else. Where is YOUR proof?

Warning Concerning Antichrists 1 John 2:18
-25
18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[c] 21I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us eternal life.

thats interesting austin- are they like the jews for jesus in america?
also concerned i can agree with you about the biased and faulty cirricula in america.

Victoria,

Luke wrote Acts, stop listening to Islamic propaganda.

ANONYMOUS- Paul invented christianity for gentiles.
No one even the most adamant christians will deny that Paul wrote all of Acts and after.

1) it requires a great stretch of credibility to presume that you are aware of the thought processes of the apostles and it is even stranger to think that Jesus(ata) was speaking "tongue in cheek".
Tha implies a knowledge of the inner workings of Jesus'(ata) thought processess also- it seems
I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL stands on it' own. to say its 'tongue in cheek' means he was being sarcastic and meant the opposite of what his words were? It seems a dishonest way to conduct a ministry.
Does that mean anything else I want to negate, ro turn opposite and can just claim it was said 'tongue in cheek'?

2) Paul never met Jesus(ata) in person. The only time paul ever met him, was in a vision and we have only his words and his writings to substantiate this.
Even stranger still, Paul couldnt even keep his own story straight even though he was the author!
ACTS 9:7 paul says the men with him heard the
voice of Jesus(ata)
ACTS22:9 paul says the men with him DID NOT hear
voice of Jesus(ata)

and in acts26:12-18 when dragged before king agrippa, paul has a THIRD CONTRADICTORY STORY
and he was the only author of all 3!

the story you have cited as "proof" occuring to ananias also happens in a conveninet
'vision' and again WE ONLY HAVE PAUL WRITING ABOUT HIMSELF.

YOU ARE RIGHT, PAUL DID CLAIM TO BE A PHARISEE- and wasnt it in matthew 23 that jesus bitterly denounced the pharisees? o you hypocrites and pharisees you whitewash the outside of the tomb but inside is all sorts of filth etc...(domething like that its from memory)

PAUL himself decided on his own that it was okay to take the message of Jesus(ata) to the gentiles and the people of the nations- at the opposition and active denouncement of the ACTUAL apostles- of which paul was never one. he was chastised by the apostles many times he writes it himself!

Paul was a persecutor of christians himslef until his miraculous conversion and we OPNLY HAVE HIS WORD(3 DIFFERENT VERSIONS OUT OF THE SAME MOUTH) THAT THIS EVER HAPPENED!

where were the disciples when paul was imprisoned?
why did jesus see fit to only send 'visions' to paul and not the apostles who lived and ate and loved with him?
paul wrote alot of his "scripture" when he was imprisoned. why didnt the apostles come to help paul?
or write to him? why didnt they associate with him?
one reason is because he was reinventing the message of Jesus(ata) by attaching pagan concepts to it-the trinity- do a google on trinity you will come up with many- the gnostics- the mazdans- hindus- egyptians- the greeks had a practice where they would take a person and heap the 'sins' of all the people on him and throw him into a taurobilium (pit) and then throw blood on him TO CLEANSE AWAY THE SINS WITH BLOOD!
does this ideA sound familiar?
kind of similar to the idea at the time popular of taking all the sins of a village and and heaping them on a goat and running the goat out of the village. where we get the term "scapegoat" from.
wouldnt it be nice if we didnt have to take personal responsibility for our actions, but could just pile them up on some unwitting creature and that pesky responsiblity could be conveniently forgotten? we never have to think or worry in the future if we do something wrong, we just load up the scapegoat and VOILA culpability free!

there are so very very many incongruities and downright major contradictions and inventions from the source of paul that i couldnt possibly begin to enumerate them.
paul just took existing pagan practices and 'christianized" them to make his task easier- which his task was a raging egomaniac jumping on a bandwagon trying to suck up some reflected glory.

for instance- in ephesus turkey it was the uncontested center of goddess worship- i think it was diana or astarte(easter) paul simply inserted
Mary(ata) as local goddess and we have 2000 years later a center of marian devotion in modern day ephesus- the pope was just there...

bsides Jesus(ata) was jewish and never heard of christos(greek) or christianity and there is no reason to believe that he would be averse to anyone becoming a jew on his account.
they were clearly special people cited and their faith is what made Jesus (grudgingly in the case of the woan) accept them.
well im tired now so ill be back later.
just a little taste and all in the cause of honesty and truth.

so now alethis i think you understand why i bridle when you always cite pauline "scriptures"
remember i told you i was not even pauline when i was a christian(later on)?
now you have the tiniest taste why.
and of course since ive posted scripture this is a ll vwery easy to verify using your own texts.
peace

For those interested in jewish-christian relations, take a look at www.tjcii.com There is an attempt to form a second jerusalem council to state that jewish believers in messiah do not have to become "christianized" and to ask for forgiveness for the past anti-semitism of the church. This council would represent every christian denomination, especially the historical churches such as the orthodox and roman catholic.
shalom

thor: don't obfuscate and get your anger under control!
The simple issue concerned the number of deaths directly attributable to the Spanish Inquisition. A subject YOU brought up not me. You however have been tapdancing around this issue ever since I put forward my question. E.,g., 'historical facts', 'too busy to waste my time,'don't play dumb w/me'etc.,etc.,.Recent research has dated Wii Durant's work. I seem to recall reading his and his wife's work back in the 50s/60s/. That doesn't make him wrong of course but new stuff makes it a litlle dated. Somewhat like your ideas,don't you think?

The hardest thing in thew world to open is a closed mind.
Think about it and remember the words of the recent Pope DO NOT BE AFRAID... ( the Truth may,in your case, set you free)

Dear Friend,

Jesus used numerous occasions to illustrate that the gospel was for the entire world. He commended the Roman centurion and said, "I have not found faith like this in all Israel." When Jesus had his dialog with the Canaanite woman he was saying to her tongue and cheek, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This was to illustrate to his disciples who thought the Messiah was only for the Jewish people that the gospel was indeed for the whole world and that many Gentiles do indeed have faith. You will see in the story below that the woman’s faith is highlighted and rewarded. In addition to this the Apostle Paul (Saul) who was a Jew and a Pharisee was sent by Jesus to the Gentiles to become the apostle to the Gentles. The passage at the bottom of the page illustrates this truth. So you see you are not correct in your assertion that Jesus only loves Jewish people.

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; and taking food, he was strengthened (Acts 9:10-19).

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

"For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The General - you really have to be kidding. A college class is the last place anyone is going to get the truth about the Koran. Hearing the politically correct version of history and the lie that Islam is "Abrahamic" "just like" Christianity and Judaism is a trip down fantasy highway. The key facts that any infidel needs to know is that it is not chronological, it contradicts itself and the Bible, the peaceful verses are abrogated and replaced by the violent ones. Also, most Muslims worldwide are illiterate so even they don't read the Koran or they read it in Arabic a language they don't understand. Altheia understands Islam and the Koran 1000 times better than you ever will. If you really knew anything about it you would try to refute her accurate commentary.

I still have this very honest question that nobody seems to know the answer to. Jesus said "I was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He also refused to help cure a woman't daughter because she was not from the house of Israel. At the end, he did it because the women was so distraught. The question is, if Jesus rejected non-Jews in his time, why do you people still think that christianity is not a man-made religion and why you follow Jesus even though his teachings were not universal and not inclusive? It really is an honest question. I don't think that Jesus himself knows of such a thing as "christianity". In the matter of fact, he never heared that word in his life, nor the word Jesus (his name is Isu in Hebrew), nor did he hear the word christ!!!

Am I misinformed or you just follow your ancestors?

Thanks for any reply.

Pakistan Christians get 15 years for blasphemy
AFP

November 27, 2006

FAISALABAD, Pakistan -- A Pakistani court has sentenced two Christians to 15 years of hard labor on charges of desecrating the Koran under the country's tough blasphemy laws, officials said Monday.

James Masih, 25, and Boota Masih, 60, were found guilty of burning pages of the Muslim holy book, Judge Mohammad Aslam said in a verdict Saturday after a trial in the industrial city of Faisalabad.

Both men, who are not related, were also fined 25,000 rupees ($416), court officials said.

"Scores of people gave evidence against the convicts," said police officer Mian Mian Muhammad Akram, adding that a member of the local council in the city's Nishatabad neighborhood had lodged the case against them.

"We saved their lives from an angry mob of Muslims who wanted to kill them, and took them into custody," senior police officer Sarfraz Falki added.

The Christian community would challenge the verdict, Christian provincial legislator Pervez Rafiq said.

Desecrating the Koran is punishable by death under the blasphemy laws of overwhelmingly Muslim Pakistan, although no one has ever been executed for the crime.

Christians, who make up less than 3 percent of Pakistan's population of 150 million, say that the blasphemy laws are used as an excuse to victimize them.

In June this year two Islamic clerics stabbed to death a Muslim man in the nearby town of Muzaffargarh when police brought him to court to face charges that he abused Allah and the Prophet Mohammed during a brawl.

Dear Alethia,

if your are going to post passages from the Koran please read the WHOLE thing .Maybe you do this and just dont understand the Quran is extremly complex and maybe you just dont understand or maybe you just copy and paste things off of the net . What im trying to say is unless you have read the koran or have taken a college class on Islam please remember what you are saying is a opinion not fact. You cant argue with someone using bais information you got from the internet .

The General

Dear Zahir,

By the way, I do not mean that Christians are polytheists they are not. We believe in three persons who are one God. Muhammad considered it polytheism to believe in the Trinity.

In Jesus,

Alethia

Dear Zahir,

Prove that Muhammad is speaking figuratively. Daniel Pearl knows it is not figurative. Christians believe in the Trinity and, therefore, are considered polytheists so this is incorrect Zahir.

P.S.- just to point out another misinterpretation made by Alethia quoting:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off” (Qur’an 8:12).
Infidels? not Jews and Christians...no we love them. He was speaking of the polytheistic followers in his community who prayed to inanimate wooden idols. As far as the finger-tip and neck smiting, he could be referring to the idols. I know he did knock them over and break them. I hope you guys see how easy it is for things to be misconstrued .

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Dear Victoria,

I am sorry I put your name at the top of one of my posts. I did not do it on purpose. Can you forgive me?

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

Hello Thor,

Thanks for trying to help me but my earthy life is good. Eternal life is not only duration of life but quality of life now and for the rest of eternity.

In Jesus" Grace and Mercy,

Alethia

Dear Zahir,

The following verses are an attack on Jesus Christ and those who believe He is the Son of God.

Koranic Verses in Referring to Judaism and Christianity

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Dear Zahir,

I hope you are doing well and are in good health. I notice that you have not refuted anything that I have said. Instead you have compared me to Hitler and Stalin. Nice try, ad hominine attacks will not work. I have not said an unkind thing to anyone on this site. I have merely pointed out the truth about Muhammad and the nature of Islam. This has all come from a sincere heart of love for God and my fellow humans. Refute what I have said and I will post a retraction with an apology. I have made this offer numerous times but all I have received is name calling and dodging of the questions. Comparing me to Hitler and Stalin may be dramatic because they were bad guys but it does not prove one thing that I have said false.

Jesus openly pointed out people who perverted the way of God. He said they were "broods of vipers" and “white washed tombs” (Matthew 23:1-36).” He told the truth about works based false religion and those who thought they were righteous by keeping religious rituals. Muhammad in the Qur'an took direct shots at the character of Jesus Christ the Son of God (John 3:16). The central theme of the Bible is that God would send the Messiah born of a woman (Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 9:6). That the Messiah would be God in the flesh (Isaiah 9:6). That He would be pierced for our sins (Isaiah 53:1-12). That He would rise again from the dead. Muhammad said none of these things were true. This is a direct insult to God and an attack on the Holy Scriptures given to mankind by God. I have documented everything I have said on this site.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

"Gaby :

To Zahir:

"It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception"

But take confort in the fact that some of us at least TRY to be fair."

As long as the "nice" Moslems, ie the ones that do not strap explosives arounf their belts and murder innocents indicriminately all over the planet, do not condemn in the starkest terms, in fact EXCOMMONICATE the Murderers that obviously have given them a very bad name, there is no hope for them.

Fair Enough?

To Zahir:

"It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception"

But take confort in the fact that some of us at least TRY to be fair.

Alethia,

I recommend reading JD Crossan's The Historical Jesus where he separates the truth from the embellishments in the NT. e.g.; John 14:6

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me",

was not said by the historic Jesus but was a later addition by some well-meaning scribe .210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12 , see http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

oh and this victoria being a man thing is
the most paranoid and irrational statement ever. That was so random I was laughing at such a wild accusation, but it just proves your ignorance to a POSSIBLITY of goodness in Islam.

cheers to high character victoria

THOR
i choose to have suspicions that your intentions are good- i asked God to lead me to worship Him the way that He wanted me to, eve if it wasnt the form that i was comfortable with---
and i taped it to my refrigerator and prayed about it maybe i think 2 ish years.

it wasnt what was WRONG with christianity but what is RIGHT with islam

islam has enhanced my christian inner child
a salaamu alaikum

i think 8 out of 10 things said in this blog are false

STOP POINTING FINGERS

nobody is getting anywhere.
understand that Islam is a peaceful religion and if a Muslim does not believe in Jesus and his message of peace, he is not Islamic.

Now the hateful and arrogant religion you see on TV read in the news and hear rediculous fabrications of, is not islam. That's propagated crap, and to believe it is representative of the religion is just naive. I don't let Columbine reflect my judgement of Christianity, let alone thousands of other occurences that OBVIOUSLY are a poor index to what people associate it with. It's a scapegoat, and we are not idiots, we fall for it because WE WANT TO...and that just concerns more personal issues

Alethia, dont even mention Jesus when you speak, your behavior is so repulsively opposite to what he preached its almost humorous. be humble, maybe you dont know everything, and realize you dont have control over anyone here so stop trying to brainwash them, like Hitler, or Stalin, or bin Laden and other insecure and neglected people. Try modesty and humility, it may take you places

Nobody in this blog that continuously accuses Islam can do so justifiably. Isnt it ironic how similar their own ignorance is to the people they are so hateful towards. YOUR RESEARCH/OBSERVATIONS AND STUDIES are so partial and subjective I can't imagine such narrowmindedness can prove yourself otherwise. You're out to get Muslims and your personal vendetta only blinds yourself. Take a page out of the prophet's book (any of them actually), and trying being nonjudgmental for a whole day. It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception

use your intellect

id like to answer thor, but you made a bad accusation of me and
now im afraid of your intentions.

but peace still

" victoria :..
When I became muslim over 7 years ago (i was a praciticing franciscan catholic and became muslim through prayer"

I was never catholic nor was I fond of their antics, but I like the Fransiscan branch.

What was wrong with it, that made you convert to Islam?

PS I once had a professor from S Korea that got a fellowship from his country, picked up wife and two kids and worked with me for a full year, in 1995. He converted from his original Buddhism to being a very active, practicing Christian (protestant of some sort)

He would ask me if i worked at night or during the day, and when I replied that I am not a night person, I work when the Sun shines and sleep when it's dark, he .. praised my habit because Jesus allegedly did so too.

I laughed at his comparison, and told him jesus did not have much of a choice... electric lights would not be invented for another 1,800+ years!

" victoria :it is funny and synchronistic that i just made a post on the coomon ground readr site about the 72 virgins myth."

Oh, so you too say it is a myth, eh?

Note to myself. Drop that conversion to islam seminar. These used car salesmen are at it again!

"Alethia :

Hello Thor,"

Hi there, Hope you are well.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

jesus is entitled to his opinion. To me, an AGNOSTIC, there is no proof of the existence of the "Father", and jesus is a HUMAN, perhaps the best Human that ever lived, but a HUMAN nonetheless. The rest is BELIEF, not Fact. And you can believe in anything you want. it's a free country.

"Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar"

this is not a matter of truth or lie. It is a FIGURE OF SPEECH for Gawd's sakes.

". His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way."

No they do not! His martyrdom proves that humans are savages. His allleged resurrection is NOT a FACT.

"If you turn to Him you will have new life."

I'm pretty happy with the life I have so far. I'm only sorry it will end by Nov 21, 2076, around 3 PM.

" God bless you Thor."

Thor bless you too. (you know THor was a God too, don't you. I was born on his day too.. Thur's day)

Lighten up, Alethia, and try to enjoy your eartly life. That's all there is. And there is no Justice either...

"Alethia :

Hello Thor,"

Hi there, Hope you are well.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

jesus is entitled to his opinion. To me, an AGNOSTIC, there is no proof of the existence of the "Father", and jesus is a HUMAN, perhaps the best Human that ever lived, but a HUMAN nonetheless. The rest is BELIEF, not Fact. And you can believe in anything you want. it's a free country.

"Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar"

this is not a matter of truth or lie. It is a FIGURE OF SPEECH for Gawd's sakes.

". His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way."

No they do not! His martyrdom proves that humans are savages. His allleged resurrection is NOT a FACT.

"If you turn to Him you will have new life."

I'm pretty happy with the life I have so far. I'm only sorry it will end by Nov 21, 2076, around 3 PM.

" God bless you Thor."

Thor bless you too. (you know THor was a God too, don't you. I was born on his day too.. Thur's day)

Lighten up, Alethia, and try to enjoy your eartly life. That's all there is. And there is no Justice either...

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Hello Thor,

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar. His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way. He is the only one who paid our debt of death for sin. He is the only one who conquered death for us by rising from the dead. If you turn to Him you will have new life. God bless you Thor.

In Jesus' Loving Arms,

Alethia

I JUST READ THORS remarks and for the record concern was stating alethia was banned and she was his friend and my very public response was for him to relay to her my peace.

it is funny and synchronistic that i just made a post on the coomon ground readr site about the 72 virgins myth.

ALETHIA FOR THE 6TH TIME I DONT WANT TO BE RUDE
PLEASE STOP HOUNDING ME.

PEACE PEOPLES

" Alethia :

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion."

There are no false religions. All religions are arbitrary. This is like some psychic crook on TV saying "I am the only real psychic, all others are charlatans". Jay Leno made huge fun of that AD (it did appear on TV a few years ago)

The problem with ISlam, and not just in the 7th century beginings but TO THIS DAY is the murderous behavior of its practitioners.

This is the problem WE the non-islamists have with Islam, BUT Islam's own followers have a much bigger problem, which is obvious if you look at their dismal standard of living DESPITE the Trillions of $ of oil "allah" put under their soil.

OBVIOUSLY, Islam utterly failed to help its practitioners PROSPER here in THIS Life. So they lull them with false promises of 72 virgins after death, stuff that even 4 year olds dismiss as silly BS.

" Alethia :

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion."

There are no false religions. All religions are arbitrary. This is like some psychic crook on TV saying "I am the only real psychic, all others are charlatans". Jay Leno made huge fun of that AD (it did appear on TV a few years ago)

The problem with ISlam, and not just in the 7th century beginings but TO THIS DAY is the murderous behavior of its practitioners.

This is the problem WE the non-islamists have with Islam, BUT Islam's own followers have a much bigger problem, which is obvious if you look at their dismal standard of living DESPITE the Trillions of $ of oil "allah" put under their soil.

OBVIOUSLY, Islam utterly failed to help its practitioners PROSPER here in THIS Life. So they lull them with false promises of 72 virgins after death, stuff that even 4 year olds dismiss as silly BS.

" Michael J. :

..Islam has many faces (religions or denominations). It fights within itself; call each other infidels; and many of the fights are bloody. How will becoming Muslim bring peace?"

When people live on $2 a day in the Gaza strip (while Arafat's (Christian, BTW), widow Suha, the one that clueless Hillary "Rodham" (LOL) Clinton embraced in public, lives high on the hog in Paris and spends more than one million US $ a MONTH)

THeir life will be very cheap and expendable.

Where are the multi-billionaire Arab so-called "brothers" of these Palestinians in Saudi Arabia? Even in the tiny EMirates, the "Emir" needs THREE Jumbo Jets to carry his harem and all his staff to his vacation palaces in Spain and the Islands near spain.

Why don't they invest their excess tens of billions in GAZA? If they did, there would be no more suicide murderers.

Why does the USA have to be the sponsor and the funder of every marshall plan around the world? We have a budget deficit and a huge national debt, whbile the so-called "brothers" of the palestinians, the degenerate Emirs, are rolling literally in hundreds of billions of $ Every year oil revenues.

Where is THEIR compassion a la Curan?

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion. I have never hidden that truth. That is not the issue however. The issue is whether or not that case that has been built is true. Stop worrying about my motives and weigh the evidence. Although, I will tell you that my motive is care for you and all others who are held captive by Islam.

In Jesus Emancipating Love,

Alethia

Jesus Said:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed” (Luke 4:18).

To Concerned the Christian:

I like that. And it makes a lot of sense.

As long as there is organized religion where people trust whatever their Pope, Preacher, Imam, etc. spews forth, there can not be common ground. When it comes to faith most people don't question, they follow. Their faith is not open to discussion because they have been brainwashed into believing they hold the key to eternal life. But that alone is not enough for the religious zealots, they also believe that everyone has to be forced into their believe system. Whether it's done in the style of Alethia who professes that she is concerned for our souls, or in the style of extremists who say it's my way or no way. One is as repulsive as the other.

ALETHIA- I had suspicons that you were using your questions to frame islam in a bad light and not in the interest of honest query, since you obviously have the capacity to find information that fits in with your preconceived ideas,refrain from asking me any further questions, as i am busy and the time ive taken to honor your requests was repaod with unkindness and casting aspersions on my religion.
please, in peace, let us agree to disagree.
im afraid your posts frighten me with their vehemence, and im skipping over them.
Any communication that degenerates into angeor slander to anyone- i stop reading immediately- so save yourself effort on my behalf.

I will respnd only to kindness in the future and good intentions.

THOR- you gave me a chuckle.at first. but the mean insult has resulted in me now ---o forget it - peace to you too.

What I find so astounding in most of the blogs which portray Islam as a "friendly" religion is that even fellow-Islamistists don't even recognize each other as legitimate. If they think that a global conversion to Islam will bring ultimate peace to the world, look what is happening in Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc. Shi'a against Sunni against Sufi against Ahmaddiya, and this list can go on and one with the many interpretations of each. One imam against another. Islam has many faces (religions or denominations). It fights within itself; call each other infidels; and many of the fights are bloody. How will becoming Muslim bring peace?

An important consideration that I constantly note on religious blogs is, as per Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary Christian theologian, God does not know the Future. From his book, Church: The Human Story of God, "Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And if God does not know the future, Mohammed, Jesus and Isaiah surely did not.

In two sentences of profound common sense, Schillibeeckx has reduced the OT, NT and Koran to typically good but wishful thinking of many ancient scribes.

This falls correctly in line with two of God's greatest dependent gifts, i.e. Free Will and Future.

Pause and think about it!!!

Thor:

My sense of humor is fine when something is humorous. But, agreed. I wish all of you could refrain from personal attacks below the belt.

As far as Victor(ia) is concerned, I am well aware that people use monikers and often pretent to be who they are not. However, as long as I do not have any prove of malignant behavior, why should I doubt what the posts say. If I did, there would be no point in loggin on in the first place.

As for Alethia, I have concluded by her numerous posts that she is a Christian Zealot who'd like to convert the world to her kind of faith. She scares me.

Hello Victoria,

The following is more from the same article. Note that this is the biggest Mosgue in Kabul. I guess it is the minority who have "highjacked Islam" in Kabul.

At Friday prayers in mosques across the Afghan capital, the case of Abdul Rahman and the consequent international outcry is the hot topic of discussion and the centrepiece of sermons.

"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.

"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."

Public mood

The issue has not reached the stage of street protests, as was the case recently during demonstrations against the publication in the West of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.

But there is little doubt that feelings run deep and can easily be inflamed.

Worshippers at the Pulakasthy mosque in Kabul
The mood among worshippers in Kabul is hardening

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."

Few were willing to listen to the growing condemnation in the West.

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.

That cuts no ice with Mr Qadir.

"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."

Western backers of the Afghan government are pressing to create a country that is a moderate and progressive democracy, able to turn its back on its Taleban past.

But analysts say they often forget that Afghanistan is a deeply conservative country rooted in tribal traditions.

"This is a Muslim country. The state is Muslim, people are Muslim 99%," says Judge Ansarullah.

Dear Victoria,

There is not freedom of religion in the Islamic world and Muhammad did not preach freedom of religion. You obviously have made up your own religion because what you tell me is not what I have learned through study and observation. The following article from the BBC proves the point.

Mood hardens against Afghan convert
By Sanjoy Majumder
BBC News, Kabul

Abdul Rahman in court
Abdul Rahman is refusing to return to Islam

Increasing international pressure over the case of Christian convert Abdul Rahman is forcing the Afghan government to play a careful balancing act between its Western allies and religious conservatives at home.

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge.

"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4841334.stm

I find it laughable that the judge said, "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him." The judge here is saying that Abdul has to regret converting to Christianity to be forgiven by the court. In other words being a Christian is a crime in the Muslim world. The only reason that Abdul was let go is because pressure from the USA on the government that the USA had set up. Had it not been for the USA Abdul would be dead right now. You can read the article in totality on the web address above.

In Jesus' Love and Truth,

Alethia

(not just that even if she were a female, Victoria is nothing like her REAL Moslem name)

But I am convinced she is a MALE trying to defend the INDEFENSIBLE OPPRESSION and SUBJUGATION of women under the medieval (and worse) teachings of ISLAM.

Gaby :

Victoria is a SHAMELESS, deliberate LIAR in more ways than her defense of Islam. Note that she was propagating the lie that Alethia, a poster that never offenced anyone, was banned from the forums.

"Thor:

Please do us all a favor and ignore PLHeart. Your last post was beyond the bounds of civility and not for public consumption."

First, the post was fine, you need to get a sense of HUMOR, I even put the vintage SNL phrase in QUOTES so you do not take it literally.

SECOND and MOST IMPORTANT, If you tell PLH to STOP mentioning my name in her clueless, silly posts, THEN I will stop responding to her silly rants.

Agreed?

Thanks.

". But unfortunately the pope's effords to make piece with the Orthodox Church of Istanbul"

there is no such thing as the Orthodox CHurch of Istanbul.

Try to be accurate.

The Orthodox Church has five patriarchs all over the world, and the one of CONSTANTINOPLE (which was renamed Istanbul only in 1930) is the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Also, you are trying to protray this as the efforts of the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope, historically way beneath the "Patriarch" rank) and the rejection of them by theh Ecumenical Patriarch.

Where is your EVIDENCE that this is what happened?

Victoria,

I appreciate your candor and your willingness to explain.

As I have said before, I am a spiritual person and believe in God. However, I do not and will never believe in any prophets, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise. The reason is simple, I think they were good demagogues but they hardly spoke for God.

I try to live my life by treating others as I'd like to be treated and to see the beauty rather than the evil. Unlike many others on this board.

I wish you well!

Thor:

Please do us all a favor and ignore PLHeart. Your last post was beyond the bounds of civility and not for public consumption.

". But unfortunately the pope's effords to make piece with the Orthodox Church of Istanbul"

there is no such thing as the Orthodox CHurch of Istanbul.

Try to be accurate.

The Orthodox Church has five patriarchs all over the world, and the one of CONSTANTINOPLE (which was renamed Istanbul only in 1930) is the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Also, you are trying to protray this as the efforts of the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope, historically way beneath the "Patriarch" rank) and the rejection of them by theh Ecumenical Patriarch.

Where is your EVIDENCE that this is what happened?

Instead of spreading out hostile messages the Pope and the counterpart should give messages to the world that they take their lesson. The pope's visit to Turkey was incredable for me and he gave the neccesary message to the today's polarizing world. But unfortunately the pope's effords to make piece with the Orthodox Church of Istanbul was in vain and the most interesting part of the trip was Pope's support of Turkish accesion to the European Union. I hope to see a world within the peace of nations and religions soon with the help of Pope, Muslim Turks, and The EU.

" PLHeart :

Thor:
Like I Care...!!! "

hahaha... IF YOU DID NOT YOU WOULD NOT KEEP BUGGING ME WITH NEW SILLY POSTS!

"You & Concerned have made this whole thing personal..."

for zthe lasrt time, you truly "ignoraANT sL-T":

cONCERNED IS A christiAN, i AM AN aGNOSTIC. LOOK UP THE GOD DAMNED WORD IN THE DICTIONARY, YOU TOTAL, CLUELESS MORON, AND LEARN!

" We either don't believe Thor's way, or we believe Concerned's way.."

more clueless garbage. there is no "Thor's way"!!! I am for REASON AND SCIENCE, I do not have a CULT to offer you, stupid person!

GET A BLOODY HINT!

Idiot...

" PLHeart :

Thor:
Like I Care...!!! "

hahaha... IF YOU DID NOT YOU WOULD NOT KEEP BUGGING ME WITH NEW SILLY POSTS!

"You & Concerned have made this whole thing personal..."

for zthe lasrt time, you truly "ignoraANT sL-T":

cONCERNED IS A christiAN, i AM AN aGNOSTIC. LOOK THJE GOD DAMNED WORD IN THE DICTIONARY, YOU TOTAL, CLUELESS MORON, AND LEARN!

" We either don't believe Thor's way, or we believe Concerned's way.."

more clueless garbage. there is no "Thor's way"!!! I am for REASON AND SCIENCE, I do not have a CULT to offer you, stupid person!

GET A BLOODY HINT!

Idiot...

Vandueren :

If you want to know if Islam is a religion of peace, read the following text about the Barbary States in North-Africa (1500 – 1850 AD).

Contemporary scholars estimate that over 1 million white Christians from France and Italy to Spain, Holland, Great Britain, the Americas, and even Iceland were captured between 1500 and 1800 by pirates from the Barbary States — modern-day Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya—collectively known to the Arab world as the Maghrib (“Land of Sunset”) .

After seizing the cargo and scuttling the vessel, the pirates would strip the crew of anything deemed remotely valuable. The shaken, naked, terrified crewmen would then be dragged back to North Africa. There, they would be imprisoned and enslaved or, if they were lucky, ransomed back to their sovereign or their family or the company they worked for.

..

EXCELLENT, TRUTHFUL and INFORMATIVE POST.

HISTORY WILL EVENTUALLY PREVAIL OVER THE AL JAZEERAS PROPAGANDA MACHINE, the clueless ARAB STREET SUICIDAL MURDERERS, AND THE DAMNED LIES AND MURDERS OF THE ISLAMOFASCIST PIGS.

WHEN WILL THE BIG SHOTZ IMAMS AND CALIPHS AND OTHER savage CLOWNS OF THE MOSLEM WORLD CONDEMN TO HELL FOR EZERNITY, INSTEAD OF ENCOURAGING, ALL THESE SUICIDAL: MURDERERS????

Don't hold your breath...

"To thyne own self be true :

Vandueren: How do you think America got its slaves? they were captured in Aftica, chained and brought across the ocean to the USA--shame on you for criticizing the crimes of the Barbary states as if they were worse than your own!(slavery, shock and awe, naked prisoner pyramids, rape etc..etc..etc..)

December 6, 2006 9:14 AM"

iLLITERATE idiot:

LEARN your History.

ARAB MOSLEM MERCHANTS were the ones that captured the slaves in the cluelest conditions, took them from their families and kids, and SOLD THEM TO THE CAPTAINS OF THE SLAVE SHIPS.

But I do not expect islamofascist no-good murderous fanatics to EVER SAY THEY WERE SORRY

You criticize the US for slavery 300 and 200 years ago?

WHAT ABOUT THE COLD BLOODED MURDER BY YOUR MOSLEM BRETHEWRN NO GOOD MURDERERS OF THE ARMENIANS?

YES< the 1.75-2 MILLION ARMENIANS

as recently as 90 years ago, in 1915,

by the savage Turks?????

NO APOLOGY AND NO REPARATIONS WERE GIVEN SO FAR

You are worse than the NAZIS, At least they said they were SORRY and gave REPARATIONS to the survivors of the Holocaust!

ALETHIA- Since you are so thirsty for this knowledge I know you will appreciate this.
I cant copy and paste so youll have to go to
toledomuslims.com and search for apostasy in islam

there is so much information there that i am sure you will be satisfied.
Sadly, you have been misinformed, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO PREACH CONVERSION IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES- IF IT HAPPENS THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING ISLAMIC LAW.

however it is a very strange thing to go and try and impose your ideas on another culture, but good manners are not the question.

this site should more than satisfy your question.
peace

Vandueren: How do you think America got its slaves? they were captured in Aftica, chained and brought across the ocean to the USA--shame on you for criticizing the crimes of the Barbary states as if they were worse than your own!(slavery, shock and awe, naked prisoner pyramids, rape etc..etc..etc..)

If you want to know if Islam is a religion of peace, read the following text about the Barbary States in North-Africa (1500 – 1850 AD).

Contemporary scholars estimate that over 1 million white Christians from France and Italy to Spain, Holland, Great Britain, the Americas, and even Iceland were captured between 1500 and 1800 by pirates from the Barbary States — modern-day Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya—collectively known to the Arab world as the Maghrib (“Land of Sunset”) .

After seizing the cargo and scuttling the vessel, the pirates would strip the crew of anything deemed remotely valuable. The shaken, naked, terrified crewmen would then be dragged back to North Africa. There, they would be imprisoned and enslaved or, if they were lucky, ransomed back to their sovereign or their family or the company they worked for.

Although there is much in the history of America’s wars with the Barbary pirates that is of direct relevance to the current global war on terrorism, one aspect seems particularly instructive to informing our understanding of contemporary affairs. Very simply put, the Barbary pirates were committed, militant Muslims who meant to do exactly what they said.

Take, for example, the 1786 meeting in London of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Tripolitan ambassador to Britain. As American ambassadors to France and Britain, respectively, Jefferson and Adams met with Ambassador Adja to negotiate a peace treaty and protect the United States from the threat of Barbary piracy.

These future United States Presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress,

“ ... that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise... “

Sound familiar?

Note that America’s Barbary experience took place well before colonialism entered the lands of Islam, before there were any oil interests dragging the U.S. into the fray, and long before the founding of the state of Israel !!!

The Islamic basis for piracy in the Mediterranean was an old doctrine relating to the physical or armed jihad, or struggle. To Muslims in the heyday of Barbary piracy, there were, at least in principle, only two forces at play in the world: the Dar al-Islam, or House of Islam, and the Dar al-Harb, or House of War. The House of Islam meant Muslim governance and the unrivaled authority of the sharia, Islam’s complex system of holy law. The House of War was simply everything that fell outside of the House of Islam—that area of the globe not under Muslim authority, where the infidel ruled. For Muslims, these two houses were perpetually at war—at least until mankind should finally embrace Allah and his teachings as revealed through his prophet, Mohammed.

Dear Fern,

It seems to me that you are in denial about Islam. I asked some simple questions four days ago that no Muslim has answered. I will post them again but I am afraid no one will give a reasonable answer. Ahmed illustrates the point I have made. Ahmed is the only one that answered and he had to hide for two years because he became a Christian in the Middle East. The whitewashed Westernized version of Islam you see is not the true face of Islam.

I am still waiting for answers to these questions.

Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations?

In Jesus, Love and Truth,

Alethia

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:43-45).

Gabriel: your horror stories about how Muslims would "tie one leg of the baby to the mother and one leg to the father and pulled the parents apart splitting the child in half "is just not true; it's a muslim hater's fantasy. Your propaganda reminds me of the Gulf War lies where a woman of your ilk named Nayirah appeared in front of a congressional committee on October 10,1990 and swore that to the fact that : "I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where 15 babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators and left the babies on the cold floor to die." The babies in incubator stories became a lead item in newspapers, and on radio and TV all over the US. no one – not the congressmen in the hearing, or any journalist present – bothered to find out the identity of the young woman. She was the daughter of Kuwait's ambassador to the United States, and actually hadn't seen the "atrocities" she described take place. (When later confronted with the lack of evidence for her claims, the young woman said that she hadn't been in the hospital herself, but that a friend who had been there had told her about it.)Similar unsubstantiated stories appeared at the UN a few weeks later, where a team of "witnesses," coached by Hill&Knowlton, gave "testimony" (although no oath was ever taken) about atrocities in Iraq. It was later learned that the seven witnesses used false names and even identities in one case. In an unprecedented move, the US was allowed to present a video created by Hill & Knowlton to the entire security council.But no journalist bothered to look into these witnesses' claims. As Susan B. Trento wrote in her book, "The Power House," an in-depth look at Hill & Knowlton, "The diplomats, the congressmen, and the senators wanted something to support their positions. The media wanted visual, interesting stories." Gabriel, do you have a conscience?...before looking at other's wrongs, you make sure you are right. Why is it that you want the world to hate muslims so much?

THE PROBLEM here lies in our needs to distinguish ourselves from one another. I'm noticing a pattern here of those who oppose Islam or Christianity that we are doing so in ignorance. Rather than identifying ourselves by what we have in common, we do so by establishing our differences and thus, distance ourselves from each other even more.
well that isnt very productive...I dont feel we need more ostracism in this area.
When quoting the Quran, we must consider the context (1400 years!) of what is said. A perfect example is the misunderstanding of marriage rights (polygamy) in Islam. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) had more than 1 wife and the quran (i dont have the exact quote) states something like: you may have 6 if you like. Now this has been spread everywhere in efforts to further soil Islam, but the VERY NEXT CLAUSE in the quran says, if you can love support and treat them all with equal love; in complete equity. It then goes on to say that man is incapable of doing so and therefore should be monogamous--rather than just dictating, the quran is justifies the importance of equality and monogamy. In the prophet's time (600s AD) marriage solely signified the sharing of living quarters, and elements of that matter, so the prophet would marry some of his orphaned relatives as well in order to take care of them too. Accusing without looking at its context will misguide you. Its like accusing Shakespeare of discriminating women by exclaiming "Peace, Ho!" The prophet's marriages were a legal sort of deal. No sexual relations of any sort here. This is just one example of the extreme misconstrument of Islam.
Islam is a pluralistic faith; meaning we accept, and even embrace, many other beliefs.
Prophet Mohd. said, "Whoever oppresses any non-Muslim I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgement." This belief is timeless in Islam.
Islam believes absolutely in the miraculous birth of Jesus and he who does not believe in Jesus and his message is not a muslim! This answers many questions.
Islam places the highest regards for women of any Abrahamic text in refrence to the Virgin Mary in the Quran...If necessary I can cite this.
Prophet Muhammad was once asked: "Who has the greatest claim on me with regard to service and kind treatment?" The Prophet replied, "Your mother, and again your mother, and once again your mother. After her, is your father, then that of your near relations and then of the relations next to them."
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER
1.4 BILLION people are Islamic, the 2nd largest faith in the world must have some (understatement) good intent
If you are making judgements of Islam, you cannot make them based off what you see on TV or hear in the news because its rediculously biased! Theres no money in me trying to agree with you, the money comes when I take out a gun and threaten to shoot. Thats when all the cameras pop up. Listen to Jack Johnson- "The News." What we see on TV shouldn't even be a disgrace to Islam because such violence and ignorance arent even related to its beliefs. If you really care, and your actual intentions are in understanding things and not just bad-mouthing others, do some real research. It's not as easy as reading a book as complex and unchanged for 1400 years as the Quran; we end up misinterpreting things quite often.
Spend 5 minutes on Whyislam.org or look up speeches by His Highness the Aga Khan IV. He's the spiritual leader of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims, but speaks universally of the religion.
To take peace, tolerance, and unity (think frontierless brotherhood, oneness with god) from Islam is to take Jesus Christ from CHRISTianity.
Contradictions and violence are in the history of all religions; we're imperfect.

Christianity and Islam both FORBID the decorating of trees, but almost nothing is universally iconic of the religion itself as the Christmas tree. but its okay! I don't feel the entire Christian population is now blasphemous.
I wish I could justify the disgusting behavior of some Muslims today, but its just a product of ignorance and lack of education--no high-minded individual behaives that way. Nevertheless! we in a very accessable western world have taken no measure to understand them, and no human is violent by nature; something caused it.

Use your intellect well,
Zahir

P.S.- just to point out another misinterpretation made by Alethia quoting:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off” (Qur’an 8:12).
Infidels? not Jews and Christians...no we love them. He was speaking of the polytheistic followers in his community who prayed to inanimate wooden idols. As far as the finger-tip and neck smiting, he could be referring to the idols. I know he did knock them over and break them. I hope you guys see how easy it is for things to be misconstrued .

grandma was over 500 women
mom worked 20 years
i fed 100
i realize that by sharing so many personal facts i am making myself vulnerable to attacks- i hope people will be kind enough to realize my intentions are good and respond i kind

the 0 is stuck on my keyboard

GABY- I dont want you to feel i am ignoring your respectful query.
When I became muslim over 7 years ago (i was a praciticing franciscan catholic and became muslim through prayer and searching-not marriage as many american women do) i asked many of the same questions.
my grandmother was head secretary of 5 women from 1925 til the 70s.
my mom was the first female union steward in her union where she worked in a state mental institute for 2 years.
I, by myself fed 10 hoeless people a day for a year- worked with the mexican and indians up and down the coast of california for 2 years in the fields to call attention to their bad treatment (which i also endured) took careof neglected and
abused handicaped people for several years in Calif., a job no one else will do, volunteered at the disable american veterans for a few years-volunteered and taken care of numerous people with aids- the list goes on,

My point is my life has been dedicated to the selfless service of humanity- the highest christian ideal-
i was raised in an atmosphere of free and powerful women who never hesitated to express themselves.

I have had the same critiques of MY MISPERCEPTIONS
of what islam is. Through study and inquiry i have learned that this is not islam. Muslim women are as free to express theselves as christians or any other woman. But there are alot of bad people out there who abuse their power over others and perpetuate a patriarchal interpertation of a non gender specific religion.

I would not be a muslim if it were a religion that
proposed such ridiculous ideas.
Muslim women have been landowners for 1400 years!

American women have only received the right to own land in this century!!!!!!!!!!

I have to go feed my husband now, not because i am his slave, but because i take care of the people i love.( and im a much better cook- we both agreed we will never ever eat his cooking).

you may notice thAT I DONT USE SCRIPTURES to make my points
that is because i dont want to start a scripture war- and im afraid if i post them it will be an excuse for some to argue and i want to encourage intelligent dialogue from our brains- not mindless cut and paste competition- who really reads them anyway?
more comments in the future insha'allah when i have time peace and peace

Alethia please stop dogging me.I am intolerant of intolerance and do not appreiciate you making me the focus of your crusade.It is because I have responded to your questions with reason that you ask them of me. We shall agree to disagree and if you really want answer to your questions, you will visit the sites i provided you with.

If you continue to ask questions then you will only br revealing that you ask them as thinly veiled forums to attack islam and not in the spirit of genuine inquiry.
peace

If anyone here feels i have ever insulted anything they believe then i apologize.
Please post any insult i have given so that i may be reminded and apologize properly.

GABRIEL it is little comfort, but I am disgusted by the behavior of the people you encountered.
A salaamu alaikum

Boring question (re: the pope's comments). This whole religion "debate," if one can call it that, is really starting to suck. The reason? Check out the answers to the previous question. The secularists will keep asking for evidence, and the woo-woos will keep saying evidence is irrelevant and apologizing for their particular flavor of woo. Boring, boring, boring.

Last month, Elie Wiesel summed up the sad pointlessness of all this sound and fury: "The fanatic does not believe in dialogue; I do. How then is conversation between us possible?"

The Christians in Lebanon always had problems with the Moslems, but we never thought our neighbors would turn on us. That situation was aggravated by the influx of the Palestinians coming from Jordan after King Hussein kicked them out in Black September. That's what tipped the scale in Lebanon. Not only had Moslems become the majority but they now also felt empowered by the presence of the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat wanting to attack the Christians, take over Lebanon and use it as a base from which to attack Israel.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975 we didn't even know what that word meant. We had taken them into our country, allowed them to study side by side with us, in our schools and universities. We gave them jobs, shared with them our way of life. We didn't realize the depth of their hatred to us as infidels. They looked at us as the enemy not as neighbors, friends, employers and colleagues.

A lot of Muslims pored in from other Muslim countries like Iran -- the founder and supporter of Hezbollah, one of the leading terrorist organizations in the world today. They came from Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The Lebanese civil war was not between the Lebanese, it was a holly war declared on the Christians by the Muslims of the Middle East.

They started massacring the Christians, city after city. Horrific events the western media seldom reported. One of the most ghastly acts was the massacre in the Christian City of Damour where thousands of Christians were slaughtered like sheep. The Muslims would enter a bomb shelter, see a mother and a father hiding with a little baby. They would tie one leg of the baby to the mother and one leg to the father and pulled the parents apart splitting the child in half. A close friend of mine was mentally disturbed because they made her slaughter her own son in a chair. They tied her to a chair, tied a knife to her hand and holding her hand forcing her to cut her own son’s throat. They would urinate and defecate on the altars of churches using the pages of the bible as toilet paper. They did so many things I don't need to go into any more detail. You get the picture.

GABY- i really would like to answer you, because it is not hard. cultural and traditional islam are subject to the same abuses as any religion, (consider snake handling).

unfortunately i think this particular board has become an anti-muslim camp(not everyone) and no matter how reasonable or moderate my response- i will be attacked so im not going to set myself up for that right now,peace

Muslims move to disrupt Brigitte Gabriel's appearance in Detroit today

Brigitte Gabriel, the courageous and insightful author of Because They Hate, is scheduled to speak at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor this evening.

However, emails have gone out to Muslim students urging "all Muslim brothers and sisters to do what they need to do to disrupt this event." One email said: "Muslims, Arabs, and their friends and allies should give Gabriel a proper welcome."

Congressman Tom Tancredo was attacked, and his speech disrupted, last week at Michigan State University Law School. And of course, there was the notorious disruption of Jim Gilchrist's talk, and the subsequent closing-off of Walid Shoebat's, at Columbia recently. It is all part of the larger pattern of trying to silence and discredit through personal attacks anyone who dares speak up too strongly against the jihad and in defense of Western civilization.

Brigitte Gabriel has asked for special help tonight. If you are in the University of Michigan area, especially if you are in law enforcement, please attend Brigitte's talk and let these thugs know that they can't get away with their strongarm tactics in America.
http://jihadwatch.org/

Thor:
Like I Care...!!! You & Concerned have made this whole thing personal... We either don't believe Thor's way, or we believe Concerned's way...
What will you both do when you've found out you are both wrong, what will Alethia & Victoria do if they both find out they are wrong??? The arrogance of absolutes is just soooooooo .... Go be absolute... Just don't tell me you've got it all wrapped up.... 'Cause lookin' at this mess... well, ya's might be educated, but, you're ..... never mind, well...you're not human... Flaws aren't allowed... Only perfection... Only, all of you don't have it right.... I may not either, but, the arrogance of your arguments, shows you all are tryin' to prove that only you have the right answer.... Maybe, I'm better off being the stupid 1, because you all are soooooo smart, sure you are....

Machina Infernalis is an idiot.

Sorry for the length, Team!

Some interesting points in the pages I read. On the whole though I think some stereotypically "internet" posters have emerged. If I were to attempt to deflate them I would say: "No one that matters is really shocked by by what you have to say" and "Chat rooms are a better place to feel better about and vindicated in your belifs" and finally "It is not really useful to just point out how someone is wrong, particularly if they are an Ineternet Nutter."

That said, I can only really talk about the Regensburg speech by the Pope. I thought it was intellectually refreshing to read. And honestly, as an atheist, it came dangerously close to converting me to Catholicism. (Not quite though.)

I'll hold off on specific comments about it, as rereading parts of it (particularly towards the end) I realize that I have forgotten some of it.

To me the speech seems flawless. As a philosophical/theological speech with a dash of history, I found it far more readable than other non-fiction. And it was skillfully argued, totally resonable, and persuasive.

However, what does leap out is that his lecture was in no way intended for normal people.

To pick out parts I do remember: To imagine that (Muslim) rioters would have a rough idea of how early Christianity was influenced by the Greek philosophical/scientific tradition is absurd. It seems just as unlikely to suppose that they had thought about the paradoxical implications of a truly "omnipotent" God.

This isn't exactly news. The average jane or joe is not very smart. And it gets worse when people congregate in a mob. Even the intellectuals I know have effectively 0% interest in theology -- for good reason! So an inability, or total lack of desire, to follow along is... unforgiveable, but understandable.

But it *is* disheartening to see that outraged presidents (or PMs) of middle eastern countries couldn't take the time to actually read the speech. Thay have a responsibility to their citizens to maintain civility and order! So too with (apparently) every person in the media who has covered it. These people, at least, are not unintelligent. There's no excuse.

So yeah anyway, I find it basically impossible to udnerstand why anyone would get in a tizzy about his speech. Particularly when it was so well-written. The only thing you can accuse it of is being useless theology.

Now as a bitter person with an eye to the destruction of all religion, I will admit that I smiled a little to learn that Muslims burned things and killed people... **again** ...because they "got offended". Obviously it makes them look like ultra-violent morons and barbarians. I figure this sets the whole religion up for a fall.

I am very encouraged by Pope Bendict's visit to Turkey and the way he reached out and proved that he has come with a mission to respect Islam and extend a reconciling and friendly hand to the adherents of Islam. It is equally impressive that the visit went off well without any major unsavoury incident. The photograph of the Pontiff and Turkey's religious leader Ali Bardakoglu holding holds, both wearing grand white dresses, should give an indication that this Pope is really serious about bridging the divide between the two great religions and the Islamic leaders are equally willing to bring it about.

I have a feeling that the ex-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has been read wrongly by the Media and Analysts earlier, because of his long stay as Ideology chief in the Vatican under Pope John Paul II. I think that long stay might have helped him to reflect on and realise that blind ideology in religious matters and issues is not sustainable and that the Vatican needs to show a flexible face to the world and take a more active role in cultivating an understanding and friendship towards other religions.

May be he was constrained by his post and the strong personality of Pope John Paul II and could not influence him much. Pope John Paul II was very charismatic but was also very rigid in his stands, particularly in relaxing certain procedures (like use of contraceptive, ordaining of women as priests, etc) and must have read his mission as strengthening Catholicism by emphasizing the fundamentals as he knew them. But the world had moved on and he perhaps could not face the fact that in a basically democratic world, the subjects want a better say in how they are governed and directed, be it either by political or religious leaders. Also his frail and failing health would have definitely undermined his enthusiasm to make radical changes.

But that is not the case with Pope Benedict. His election as Pontiff was a well-conducted affair (contrast to the election of Pope John Paul II, in an emotional atmosphere immediately after the short reign of Pope John Paul I, who suddenly died within just a few days of becoming Pope). Pope Benedict must have canvassed for his policies amongst the Cardinals who elected him and must have given them some idea about what he thought his mission was, should he be elected as Pope. It is a credit to the College of Cardinals that they went out to elect him, in spite of his reputation as an ideologue and inflexible theoretician. I believe something radical happened in that conclave and the College of Cardinals must have debated about the future of Catholicism and the ways and means to revive its popularity and standing and felt that Cardinal Ratzinger with his long experience inside Vatican was a better candidate to implement changes, albeit gradually.

Who better to initiate these changes than the person who was earlier tasked with the responsibility of writing, advocating and implementing the rules and procedures.

I also believe that Pope John Paul II was more style but Pope Benedict would infuse more substance into his running of the Papacy.

He has started well in visiting Turkey which though secular has a majority of Muslim population and which is under tremendous pressure to transform itself more so it can be admitted into the European Union. And Turkey is better placed geographically as a bridge between the turbulent West Asia and the prosperous Europe. Pope Benedict’s blessings and reaching out to Islam in Turkey is rather symbolic and pregnant with meaning.

I fervently hope that this initiative can be seized by all the important players and a better understanding and tolerance can come about between the major religions. As it has been said by Pope Benedict, after all, they all pray to the One God and there should really be no ill-will or hate amongst them. Democracy also means freedom and liberty, which sadly has been overlooked when dealing with others of different persuasions and practices.

Pope Benedict may be the catalyst to develop better understanding and relationship and bring about more miracles than are expected of him and those sick of the fighting and killing that is going on in the world will grasp his outstretched hand to promote peace and prosperity.

The signs and images are encouraging after Pope Benedict’s visit to Turkey.

God Speed to him.

concerned
Someone who thinks child molesters are as you say CUTE they are mentally challanged.now if you stand up you will notice your feet point outwards, it is a proven fact that if there is nothing physically wrong with you are a product of inbreeding scientific fact. look it up and tell the people who take care of you in the nut house you now know why you act like you do.I WOULD STRONGLY ADVISE A DNA TEST WITH YOUR LOVE ONES.

Dear Victoria,

Did you see the post below under Returning Bronze Horses to Istanbul Might Heal Wounds: John Dominic Crossan? This is waht I am talking about. Ahmed lived in a real Muslim country.

Ahmed:

plain and simple fact: you are in danger of your life if you preach conversion to Christianity in any predominantly Muslim nation. beleive me I converted to Christianity from Islam in the Middle East, I had to live in secret for two years till I brought my family to America.

In Christ,

Ahmed

Posted December 4, 2006 9:20 PM

" Gaby :

Victoria,

I can't agree with you! I appears that women in Islam do not have the same rights as man, nor are they equal."

Gaby:

You are absolutely right, and what's worse, women are not just A LITTLE lower than men in Islamic societies, they are treated worse than people treat their PETS here in the US, much worse.

Wow. There are some really crazy people. Nothing religion to nuture the very worst in every human being. All religious people should be fed to lions for the amusement of the wealthy.

Victoria,

I can't agree with you! I appears that women in Islam do not have the same rights as man, nor are they equal. I don't really think it's the kind in Saudi Arabia who won't allow women to be equal to men, but rather the Islamic scholars. As long as Imams suppress women's rights, I have to infer that Islam as a religion sees women as little more than slaves to their men. Just read the article in today's front page of the Post.

Any country that is largely Muslim, regardless of their political leaders, seems to have very little regard for the western idea of human (that would include women) rights.

"Concerned :

Has any other infidel ever noticed in news video coverage the various outfits worn in Islamic lands? Especially when there is some sort of meeting. You see one person wearing one color turban next to another wearing a different color next to someone in a robe next to other types of robes, next to someone wearing Western clothing, etc. etc."

Males should wear white outfits and females black ones. It is sort of the opposite to western weddings.

Those who wear other colors are bloody heretics and will burn in hell. Wearing an okhre burka instead of a black burka is a moral low that only Britney and the Artist calling herself Madonna are capable of. Oh, and Paris Hilton, how could I forget her.

. Bad girl! (Or bad farm animal... human-rights wise, farm animals have more!)

" Concerned :

Anon - to the greatest extent, except for the smallest insignificant percentage, those who call themselves Muslim had no choice in the matter. "

I know. And if you read my post carefully, I said, in caps too, "WILLINGLY".

" Instead of demanding that all lands under the control of Islam give absolute FREEDOM to all individuals to reject Islam or choose another faith, the West is just inviting Islam into it's communities"

ITS, not "It's".

" watching, like a bunch of clueless morons, as whole towns, particularly in Europe, are becoming Islamic even taking up Sharia law in some cases."

Europs has a HUGE underpopulation problem, which will result in a Social Sceurtity and pension nightmare compapred to which the USA will be Paradise on Earth.

One easy but foolish solution is to allow more destitute, barefoot and pregnant (literally) fansatic Islamists to emigrate from North Africa to France and other nations governed by idiots that do not know any better.

You are just too cute. If you would just quit attacking people and deal with the issues. The fact that you are obsessing over me and wanting to meet (for either a fight or to molest isn't clear) indicates that you are unable to discuss the issues seriously. You would fit in well in an Islamic society. In any case I'm not a minor and I'm not interested in being molested by you so leave me alone.

CONCERN
homos who hide behind computers and talk smack are punks that is you scumbag any time any place

Anon - to the greatest extent, except for the smallest insignificant percentage, those who call themselves Muslim had no choice in the matter. Those born into a country, community, family, controlled by Islam are signing their own death warrant to either reject Islam or even worse try to leave it after becoming Islamic. Infidels in those communities face extreme pressures, economic, legal, social, you name it, to become Islamic and just quit fighting it. To remain a Christin or Jew or other non-Islamic faith under Islam is not a choice one would make either. But since every single community controlled by Islam was Christian, Jewish or other faiths before Islam invaded small numbers have held out holding on to their original faiths all these centuries. These facts is what makes the West's response to Islam so insane. Instead of demanding that all lands under the control of Islam give absolute FREEDOM to all individuals to reject Islam or choose another faith, the West is just inviting Islam into it's communities watching, like a bunch of clueless morons, as whole towns, particularly in Europe, are becoming Islamic even taking up Sharia law in some cases.

Has any other infidel ever noticed in news video coverage the various outfits worn in Islamic lands? Especially when there is some sort of meeting. You see one person wearing one color turban next to another wearing a different color next to someone in a robe next to other types of robes, next to someone wearing Western clothing, etc. etc. I always wonder how much significance these choices of garb have. In some instances there is no doubt that the choice is super critical and is part of their Islamic group but I'm always curious how much of it is just random, rather like an outing in the West where one person is wearing a tuxedo, another wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt, another wearing business casual, and then of differing colors, etc. But the confused jumble of clothing selection at some of these Islamic meetings really is noticeable and I believe quite significant to them.

For a male to sderiously believe in Islam, 72 virgins and all, maybe is a sign of naivete and mild retardation.

But for a FEMALE to WILLINGLY become a Moslem, it is a sign of pure Masochism, if not also a total dysfunction of the brain.

Think about it!

Why would a human being subject herself to an inferior status, be caged at home, not even being able to drive her kids to school?

No wonder Illiteracy, Diesease and Poverty prevails in the Moslem world,

DESPITE the TRILLIONS of $ worth of oil and gas that "Allah" has placed under their soil.

You are quite wrong. Both the Pope and the Turkish alleged Holy person lookes like ELVIS IMPERSONATORS with their shiny white dresses or outfits or whatever you call them.

The Turkish dude wore high heels too. (not stilleto ones, platform type, like Korea's Mental Li Ill)

You are quite wrong. Both the Pope and the Turkish alleged Holy person lookes like ELVIS IMPERONATORS with their shiny white dresses or outfits or whatever you call them.

The Turkish dude wore high heels too.

Perhaps Tom would like to explain the rationale of the neck tie?

I would not support the wearing of a "Jesus is Lord" t-shirt to such an important gathering. Concerned is just trying to make trouble.

The Istanbul meeting needed a red carpet with Joan Rivers and some gay dudes at the end to interview the principals and comment on their outfits. The Orthodox chap took the prize for bling. The Pope sported the most dead animals. The Muslim outfit had the timeless look of Star Wars with a hint of Elton John.

It’s easy to see why so many billions of adherents follow and, when asked, kill for these guys. They really do look like the ambassadors of invisible gods.

How intelligent you humans are.

What is the deal with the all-capital postings?

Don;t you psycho fanatic know that in Internet Etiquette this is considered as SHOUTING and YELLING, moron?

Go yell and shout at the sick, illiterate, deranged masses that fill the Arab Streets.

Better yet, wrap a bunch of explosives around your waist and go murder some infidels..

May get you a higher floor in Islamic Heaven

(the stupid Kuran SAYS SO VERBATIM)

" PLHeart :

Well, I'm gonna upset a boat-load of people... Concerned Ain't gonna like me & Thor Ain't gonna like me either..."

Don't delude and don't flatter yoruself.

You are utterly unimportant

and the few posts of yours I read and wasted my time were full of inacciracies and falsehoods.

COnsider yourself flattered that I made the mistake to read them.

ALETHIA- WELL, I HAD ALOT OF MAJOR INCONGRUITIES THAT I COULD NEVER RECONCILE IN CHRISTIANITY AND I TRIED FOR 38 YEARS.

FOR INSTANCE- THE FIRST COMMANDMENT.
AND THE WORDS OF JESUS(ATA)
SO I CANNOT WORSHIP JESUS(ATA) AS GOD.
JESUS(ATA) WAS A JEW AND DID NOT SET UP ANYONE BESIDE GOD. HE WORSHIPPED NO
MAN AND NOWHERE DID HE TELL ANYONE TO WORSHIP HIM.

OF COURSE YOYU UNDERSTAND HERE THAT I AM SPEAKING OF MY OWN THOUGHTS AND INTERPERTATIONS AND DO NOT SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE. IM JUST SHARING MY OWN SPIRITUAL PROGRESSION AND THINKING PROCESSES.

NOW I HAVE TO GO BUT TONIGHT "INSHA'ALLA" ILL COME BACK. (IF ALLAH WILLS IT) PEACE SISTER ALETHIA

Maybe the Pope should have worn a t-shirt that says Jesus is Lord! That would have gone over great. The Muslims would have rioted and killed him ripping his limbs from his body and spreading his blood all over themselves.

Where are the fashion police when you really need them? Did you see the outfits on these three characters? Since billions of people still "believe" in god(s) and religious organizations, I don't see much hope for world survival.

Anon - I didn't realize you were into that. But in any case there are forums for that too. Just be careful - Dateline NBC is out there catching you guys.

Respect should be a two way street, The vitupertiveness of Islamic media, often state sanctioned, should be condemned. there is a difference betweem comment and hatred. The Pope and non-moslem societies, should make clear that cartoons, comments on societal differences etc are not equivalent to Jehad. We are not engaged in a war with Islam, but we don't want hatred accented by any Islamic group against non moslems.

concerned
So you think molesting children is CUTE?

In Jesus' love indeed....With Christmas approaching, let's all celebrate the birth of a man who was known as Jesus Christ. As a non-religious person, I still appreciate the fact that there once was a man named Jesus who tried throughout his life to teach people to live together in peace and harmony. So far, the populations and their particular flavour of religions have yet to live as He taught, yet his birth and life are worth remembering. Who knows, maybe some day, people may actually forget about the smoke and mirrors of today's organized religions and start to simply live by his teachings. Jesus and Muhammad said it best: "Love your neighbour as yourself". Merry Christmas to all!

Anon - your absurd rantings are really cute but this forum really is supposed to be for serious discussion. Go find another forum to chat on. Maybe there is a forum on Britney Spears or Favorite Candy or something like that you might enjoy.

TO ALETHIA AND VICTORIA
You both have one thing in common, you are both second class citizens in each of your religions

ATTENTION ALL CHRISTIANS
Sister Norma Giannini has been accused of sexual assault 200 TIMES over a period of 20 years

To all you NUT JOBS who post a pro religious comment.There is a saying everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.If you believe there is a life after go take out a big insurance policy and step in front of a train.you are all weakminded who can't think for yourselves

Dear Victoria,

Can you give an answer for the hope you have in Islam? Do you really have to send me to a web page? I know my posts are long so if you are just skimming them you have not understood the full weight of the case I have been making. Now I see why your responses lack understanding in what I have written. How are you going to know if what we are trying to tell you is true if you will not weigh out what is said in totality. There is no "violence” in my questions. They flow from a heart that cares for your soul. I believe Islam is a false religion and, therefore, will hurt you. If I did not care I would not say anything that would be easier.

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

PLHEART WELL, EVERY MUSLIM ON THE PLANET MINUS ONE--
a couple of years ago- (vanity prevents me from dating myself) i spent my rent money and took myself to see mikhail baryshnikovs last dance tour. it was a one man show choreographed by the legendary twyla tharp and i reccomend "white nights" the dance for freedom makes me all reklempt (snl coffee talk)
i watched a christmas story tonite with my husband and we laughed our heads off- as a matter of fact he wants to but a replica of that stupid lamp at rite aid...and i say if you dont cry at the end of its a wonderful life then you aint human.

i dress very colorfully and on occasion i will have dirty looks or smirks from the sisters at the mosque- and my reply is ALLAH LOVES BEAUTY which is a response given to me by one of the most brilliant minds in america dr. amir ali sadly deceased... you will find small hearts and minds and intolerance in every strata--- just as you will find tolerance and joy in the least expected places--- to qupote monty python- god has the best sense of humor- consider the platypus...

Well, I'm gonna upset a boat-load of people... Concerned Ain't gonna like me & Thor Ain't gonna like me either.... And Every Muslim on the planet is gonna hate me double... I'm gonna fight for the right to watch "The Nutcracker" starring Mikhail Baryshikov & Gelsey Kirkland & any other "Nutcracker" type movies including the 1 that features McCauley... you know the 1 from"Home Alone 1 & 2".. I also resrve the right to watch "Miracle on 34th St." & "White Christmas"...
So the $64,000,000 question is why does a Agnostic/Atheist say no matter what you 2 extremes do, will she fight for the right to watch these sappy things...?
Because she is wayyyyyyyyyyyy tired of you both... But, she is way tired of Muslims telling her that she can't listen to or watch Baryshnikov or listen to Tchaikvsky....
No, you don't get to claim me so easily "Religious Rightists"... Because you also would take the joy from the "Yule-Tide"
Which also inclues simple thoughts as "White Christmas", or a Prince taking a loving person to a dance!!!
All religions are hateful....
The Joy Of Burning A Pine Log In A Fire-place, is a thing NEITHER OF YOUR RELIGIOUS IDEALS CAN ACCEPT..."Are you worth "Pullin' Up" to make behave?"
Nope, you're both sooooooo arrogant, why bother asking you to pay attention....
But, I'm going to watch everything I mentioned, because it gives me a light soul... I don't have to ask Concerned's permission nor do I have to ask Thor's permission...Nor Do I Have To Ask A Christians Permission To Enjoy This Moment Of Peace... All I have to do is have the joy of the moment....

GABY- as a muslim woman- that's a really easy one.
It says in the Qur'an that any government that is ruled by a king is inherently corrupt.
Because it is the birthplace of the Prophet(pbuh people mistakenly imagine that it is representative of islam. Actually, only 18% of muslims in the world are of arabic descent. Because it is the location of Mecca itholds a specialplace in Islam. But that does not mean the people there are magical or above reproach. As far as injustices go...i think there are worse.

Islam is a religion without biases. While the christians were suing the bible to prove the MANIFEST DESTINY of the white mans right to own the black people as slaves, muslims had been teaching equality of the races and sexes.
ALL MUSLIMS ARE AS EQUAL AS THE TEETH ON A COMB.
LIKE THE FINGERS ON ONE HAND, DIFFERENT BUT EQUAL.
The elitism you see in other rleigions- is not islamic doctrine. If you see instances of its abuse itis the fault of the practicers, not the doctrine. We all of us are striving to be better.
peace

CONCERNED:

The hate is clear in your words and what's inside your heart is even worse! How did you end up this way with the teachings of Jesus? Do not go to extremes in your thinking. Jesus was sent to the Jews, as he himself said. What business do you have with him? Are you looking for true guidance? Be sincere, lookup to the sky, and ask God for help. Jesus CANNOT help you because all his power was from God (read the bible). If you continue to believe otherwise (brainwashing have been going on for long time), you might lose any perspective of the truth.

I am not trying to give you hard time, you already seem in distress. You should justify your faith through the understanding of the scripture, not by attacking others and say I must be better than them. Might work for you today but one day you won't be able to keep torturing yourself. Read the Bible and the Quran, with no pre-judgement, then decide for yourself! If you want to know about christianity, you read the bible and ask knowledgable people. You don't go to an athiest for that matter. Did you ever ask yourself how come muslims know the bible more than the majority of christians? Similarly, you want to know Islam, read the Quran and ask knowledgable people. Fair enough!?

Alethia- if you are sincerely interested in the answers toyour questions go to islamonline.net or islamonline.com
However, since there are violent accusations implied in your questions- i have some suspicion of the integrity of your motives in asking questions that are designed to malign muslims. Better minds than mine will answer them for you on these sites if you genuinely want an understanding.

I have never insulted anyone here-even in the tiniest subtlest way. I will only respond to well mannered queries. I havent made an derogatory remarks to any religion, philosophy or any body of people. Iam losing interest in visiting here because it seems to be degenerating into some pushing their agendas onto others, and leaves no room for meaning dialogue. I rarely read the long copy and pastes and wonder that people think someone will work so hard to read something that contains slander- towards christians muslims jews hindus atheist ... i respect all of your rights to expression.
peace

I think the pope has made the right choice to pray at the mosque in Turkey to pay for his mistakenly idiotic speech on violence in Islam. He ought to read history and should remember which religion the Nazi germans belong to and also the killing of 250K+ Japanese by the Americans. How about the millions of people who were killed during the British colonisation and how about the numerous people killied by the Spanish,French,Durch colonisation in South America , Africa & Asia and forced conversion of people to chrisitianity? Is it ok to commit violence in the name of chrisitianity? I guess the Pope and the followers think they can get away with all these nonsense for long. How dumb is that?

Kanan

"And it took SIX MONTHS to burn the priceless Heritage of Humanity to fuel Omar's BATHS."

The only teensy problem with that story is that it was written 300 years after the purported event, so you'll forgive me if I take it with a gigantic grain of salt.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9

"First of, Theodosios was NOT an EMperor of ROME (!!!!!)"

Uh, yes he was. He was the last Roman emperor to control both the Eastern and Western Empires.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa062601a.htm

Yes, but then you have slay the infidels (Sura 9:5) in the Qur'an also.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

the so called radicals of islam are not believers. I think that you should one day go to a mosque and see for yourself what a real muslim. those people blowing things are not muslims they just do it for their reasons and just use God's name as a cover. I think that people who do not see Islam as peaceful religion are blind to the real facts. There have been a lot of christians who were violent. remember the kkk and the white supremists. how about hitler? ring a bell. maybe instead of just listening to what other people say maybe you should pick up the quran and read it yourself. Muhammad (pbuh) is the most peaceful and most reverd human being of this world. insulting him is not helping you. maybe you are not understanding the religion and the Quran. i wonder how can someone understand something they have no idea about? i wonder how can someone form opinions without reasearch. i know that someday you all will see the truth. You all will see who was right and who was wrong. Eventually, you will all see the truth. for those who are devout christians, iahve a question. how can jesus be the son of god and god. so he is own son. and on top of that hes a holy spirit. y'all need to make up you minds.

I hope that you realize the truth before its too late

Alethia wrote:

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:43-45)."

Let's talk about fruits! 25% of USA are HEAVY drinkers. More than 95% drink alcohol. What kind of fruit is that in this overwhlmingly christian country? Millions of citizens are on illegal drugs. Millions others are in jail. You want a real ripe fruite, here it is: 40% of newborn are from unmarried couples. Divorce rate is above 50%. The lack of high moral standards are pushing millions of men and women into being gays. The list goes on and on and on!

You are abusing Jesus and the bible with your behavior. Think TWICE before you quote Jesus or the bible! Jesus will reject YOU on the day of judement because you call him God!!! Read the bible for God's sake!!!

Dear Muslims,

I am still waiting for answers to these questions. Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations?

In Jesus, Love and Truth,

Alethia

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:43-45).

Alethia:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion". Guess where can you find such a verse?

Dear Friends

Christians are to follow Jesus' words and example but have not been perfect in their behavior. One also must remember that there are and have been people who are Christian in name only and that Jesus preached very strongly against hypocrisy. That is one of the things that first drew me to Him when I began reading the Gospels.

Muhammad on the other hand began peacefully and interacted with the Jews and Christians but when they did not receive his message he resorted to violence. His followers have been following his example ever since. In Qur’an 9 the repentance chapter Muhammad’s example became the blueprint for Jihad that is used by Muslims to this day. Muhammad had made a covenant with the people of Mecca that he would not kill them but later Muhammad changed his mind and gave them four months to convert to Islam or die. Verse 5 was given to cancel out the covenant he had made. Qur’an 9:5 follows:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 9:5).

The Highly regarded Islamic commentary published by the Azhar gave commentary on the verse in 1983 as follows:

"The chapter of Repentance was revealed to raise the level of security which the infidels enjoyed because Muhammad had earlier made a covenant with them not to kill them. After that, this verse was given (9:5) in order to free God and Muhammad from any covenant with the infidels. It gives them four months in which they will be protected, but by the end of the four months (the end of the grace period), the order comes: Kill the infidels wherever you find them. Capture them, besiege them in their castles and fortresses until they are forced to accept Islam or be killed."

The highly respected Ibn Hisham: - Al Sohaily in his book, "al-Rawd al-Anaf" which is the most famous book about Muhammad’s life (part 4, p. 194); we read the following commentary on verse 5:

"When Muhammad conquered Mecca and the Arabs realized that they were not able to wage war against Muhammad, they accepted the Islamic faith. But some of the infidels continued to be as they were. (They used to make pilgrimages also because this practice was in vogue among the people hundreds of years before Muhammad). Then suddenly Muhammad sent someone to announce to the Tribe of Quraysh that no pilgrimage would be allowed for the infidels after that year (9H); none would enter paradise unless he were a Muslim. Muhammad was going to give the infidels a respite for four months, and after that there would not be a covenant except the covenant of the sword and war (lit: piercing and the strike of the sword). After this period, people entered Islam by hook or by crook, and anyone who did not become a Muslim fled the Arabian Peninsula."
So you can see that when Muslims wage Jihad it is for the purpose of Islamic expansion and they are following the example of the “prophet.” Osama Bin Laden followed this example of giving time for repentance before Jihad by calling the USA to turn to Islam before he brought down the world trade center. This may be one of the reasons the president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called on Americans to convert to Islam. Personally, I believe he is preparing for Jihad.

In conclusion, followers of Jesus have a different blueprint to follow than followers of Muhammad. Jesus was peaceful and turned the other check all the way to the cross. He told Peter to put away his sword and said “those who live by the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:5). So-called Christians who have not and do not follow Jesus’ example are living in direct disobedience to Jesus’ words and example. Muhammad on the other hand took up the sword himself and commanded his follower to do likewise. People all over the Islamic world have followed his example and are following his example and words today.

It is true that some Muslims do not follow Muhammad’s example. In fact, some do not even know about his violent example and do not understand the Qur’an. But the consensus in the Islamic world is mostly in lock step with Muhammad’s words and actions. A person would have to be an ostrich to miss this truth.

I pray that those who are ensnared in Islam would see the truth about Jesus and be set free.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

Dear Candice,

That made no sense.

In Jesus' Love and Truth,

Alethia

People have been abusing history here and repeating erroneous information. In any case, a few atrocities, even if correctly cited, are no proof that either Islam or Christianity is a more violent religion. Both claim to possess the absolute truth, both have spread by the sword, both have repressed their rivals by force when they could, both are connected to innumerable massacres, atrocities and wars.

There is no single agreed-upon date for the destruction of the Library of Alexandria. Its collections were spread among several buildings so it may have been destroyed in stages. Some of its contents were said to be lost when the Emperor Aurelian's (270–275 AD) army captured the city after a revolt in 273 AD. In 391, Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of pagan temples, and Alexandria's Patriarch, Theophilus, led Christian mobs to destroy several institutions, including the Museum of Alexandria, and the Serapeum, a temple which held the "daughter library" to the Great Library. Alexandria was rarely mentioned as a center for scholarship after that. Another story claims that the library was destroyed by Caliph Umar after the Muslim conquest in 642, and that the books were burned in the city's bathouses for 6 months. According to Wikipedia, "this story has been universally regarded as a fiction since the 18th century...put down to Chistian crusader propaganda."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus told Peter to put away his sword and said, those "who live by the sword will die by the sword." Jesus was God in Human flesh; he died, and rose from the dead."

Jesus told Paul (his real name is Saul but that sounds too jewish so the early founder of chritianity changed his name to Paul so it sounds greek rather than jewish!) to carry the sword in the first place. Then he told him to put it down. This is an action that can only be taken by a human not God. God doesn't play around and keep changing his mind!

Dear Candice,

I hope you are having a good day. What you assert is nowhere in the Gospels. Jesus told Peter to put away his sword and said, those "who live by the sword will die by the sword." Jesus was God in Human flesh; he died, and rose from the dead. Islam attacks all those truths of the Christian faith. However, we will not threaten Muslims who are blaspheming the name of Jesus by saying He is less than God. Our God is big enough to take care of the problem at the judgment. In the mean time we will defend the Christian faith with love and the word of God. We will obey Jesus' command to turn the other cheek.

May you know the truth about Jesus our great God and Savior who said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

The abuse that Jesus getting from the masses of christians today is unheard of! Jesus taught them to worship the only one God in heaven, they say no, we will worship you! He teaches them that everyone will be acountable for his/her own action, they say no, we want the easy way and that all our sins are paid for by him. He told them that unless your rightousness exceeds that of the Jews, they say no, we will not apply the law. He tells them that "I was only sent to the lost sheep of the sons of Israel", they insist they follow him even with a message that fits them not.

No wonder on his second return, he will tell them "I knew you not, depart away from me". Christians today will face the same disappointments that their ancestors have faced when their twisted moral and idelogies failed them. That's the only truth about chritianity! I wish Jesus comes back soon! The majority of you will be surprised for what he will do...

You Christians seem to follow the misleading Gospel of Mark in believing Jesus was a pacifist. Mark wrote this to get the Roman government off the backs of Christians who were suspected, rightly, of believing in a Zealot Saviour, Jesus.

Scholars have established that the pacific Jesus was an imaginary Jesus. Pilate had Jesus killed as the leader of a band of rebels camped on the Mount of Olives. He had already taken over the temple and driven out its officials -- not alone but with his troops. Jesus was a Zealot or at least willing to do the bidding of the Zealots. One of his disciples was a Zealot, Simon the Zealot.

Christian doctrine proclaims an imaginary Jesus, not the apocalyptic and revolutionary Jesus who so scared the Romans and their Jewish priestly collaborators that he had to be done away with. He was. He did not rise from the dead. What rose what a totally false conception of Jesus invented by Paul, by Mark, and by the author of the Fourth Gospel.

There are many places to read the truth. I suggest just one: SGF Brandon's Jesus and the Zealots.

You Christians seem to follow the misleading Gospel of Mark in believing Jesus was a pacifist. Mark wrote this to get the Roman government off the backs of Christians who were suspected, rightly, of believing in a Zealot Saviour, Jesus.

Scholars have established that the pacific Jesus was an imaginary Jesus. Pilate had Jesus killed as the leader of a band of rebels camped on the Mount of Olives. He had already taken over the temple and driven out its officials -- not alone but with his troops. Jesus was a Zealot or at least willing to do the bidding of the Zealots. One of his disciples was a Zealot, Simon the Zealot.

Christian doctrine proclaims an imaginary Jesus, not the apocalyptic and revolutionary Jesus who so scared the Romans and their Jewish priestly collaborators that he had to be done away with. He was. He did not rise from the dead. What rose what a totally false conception of Jesus invented by Paul, by Mark, and by the author of the Fourth Gospel.

There are many places to read the truth. I suggest just one: SGF Brandon's Jesus and the Zealots.

To Realist from Daniel. Realist, I am actually agnostic and have nothing at all against science.

What I am concerned with is the vague defense science puts up against religion.

You state that morality can exist without religion--that God essentially is unnecessary for morality.

What I state is that if science prefers to dispense with God as an explanation for morality, far from science taking it for granted that morality will just exist without God science must not only question morality severely but devise all sorts of strategies for action on the part of man because otherwise man will not be able to go down through the centuries without God.

When you remove God all falls upon the shoulders of man. Morality with a belief in God is action to reconcile one with God. Morality without God is action to ensure the human species will continue to exist--and therefore probably much more difficult.

Scientists quite simply are demolishing the illusions of religion without seeing that logically they should have been preparing man for actions in a world without God--or to put it in another way, they have been demolishing illusions without not only calling for morality but the creation of morality itself (new behaviors).

Even worse, scientists have been demolishing illusions, not calling for a severe questioning of morality and the creation of future superior actions, and creating technology which dramatically increases the capacity of man to destroy himself.

Even without the technology morality should have been seriously questioned. In fact in a world without God--if you want to speak about political structures--it makes sense to have some sort of authoritarianism so that the species is certain of not undermining itself and dying an empty fate without God. And when you add technology to the equation it only makes sense to literally call for a new type of man--one capable of the actions which will not turn technology against man...

I am far from being against science realist. What I am against is the ludicrousness of all too many scientists. If you want to dispense with God that does not mean an easy life without all the moral demands of religion--on the contrary! It means the life of the terrifying responsibility of man fending for himself.

I find it outrageous that you should say man should not depend on God but then you say you believe in socialism--all those people that believe the state should take care of them!

A true comedy. A world without God demands the most responsible of people--not those that depend on the state or anything. Some sort of authoritarianism which is not socialism is more compatible with a Godless world.--That is to say authoritarianism until people are of such caliber that they can be totally democratic and totally responsible.

When people tell me they are agnostic or atheistic--essentially do not believe in God--far more often than not they just want to get away from moral strictures. Dispensing with illusion is supposed to arrive at that end. But dispensing with illusion properly speaking should lead one to terrifying responsibility and self-sufficiency.

If science truly wants to get away from religion it will have to not only assure man can exist without God, it will have to assure us it can improve man's behavior in a variety of ways without God.

Furthermore science will have to provide a long range goal. At the least scientists should have the courage to say that they demonstrate their mastery and understanding of phenomena--the principles behind--by replicating phenomena.--and that ideally the goal is to replicate the universe--prove we grasp it by making it.

But no, scientists will not say that. They prefer the vague "discover truth" and to "dispense with illusions", etc.

I find it incredibly strange that scientists themselves seem totally incapable of logic and coherance of statement.

How can they not see that to dispense with God and believe in evolution must result in a call to take evolution into our own hands and calls for morality and political structures conducive to such a goal?--Furthermore that all this taking of evolution into our own hands is to get in position to totally be able to replicate the universe at will?

And what is that other than a type of dream about...God?

TO Chelle:

I think they worship they same God, but have different rituals. I am glad you said Christian Churches rather than Church.

Where I grew up there were 2 Christian religions, the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Protestants. All others were labeled either sects or cults because they were not mainstream.

In America, things are a little different. I had never seen so many churches in my entire life. And all of them profess to have the one right way to worship. Mind Boggling!

TO Concerned:

"Whoever runs this site is going to have to fix that - impersonators will ruin this forum. In any case whoever posted that is a dirt bag and a moron."

Who posted what and who is a dirt bag and a moron?

Whoever runs this site is going to have to fix that - impersonators will ruin this forum. In any case whoever posted that is a dirt bag and a moron.

As to Chelle - you are incorrect, but you probably knew that.

TOUGH LOVE AND ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM

One of the greatest tenets of democracy is that a superior argument will win the day. Right now, this doctrine is being turned on its head by the Islamic Fundamentalists.
These crazed murderers are not only cleaning our intellectual clocks. They are wiping the floors with our morbid brains.

These Fundamentalists have taken Islam and turned its teachings into a murderous medieval ideology – that the killing of infidels in the name of Allah will be rewarded in heaven - allowing the Islamists to sexually molest for all eternality 72 virgins, in 72 mansions, and 72 beds – that the murder of millions of non - believers is a religious duty, women are inferior to men - their virtual slaves to be denied education, beaten, killed for adultery or other sexual transgressions (real or imaged), covered from head to toe, people can be mutilated and tortured, barbers giving hair cuts can be killed, music and movies banned, women practicing folk dancing murdered, schools teaching young girls blown up, anyone who believes in a different interpretation of Islam to be killed and on and on. Muslims have paid a terrible price at the hands of these Fundamentalists. Children mutilated. Grand parents brains blown all over the street. Women, children, old and young. Over one hundred and fifty thousand Muslims have been slaughtered in the most horrid, unimaginable ways since 9/11.

Against these ridiculous crazy teachings, the Western World is intellectually collapsing – freedom of speech is collapsing. Anyone who writes or puts on a play exposing these teachings can be killed. In the face of this onslaught, moderate Muslims are being pushed to the background and running for cover. Western Governments are running for cover. Mosques are being taken over by radical Islamists from the Saudi Arabian Wahhabbi sect.

We need to form an immediate alliance with moderate Muslims to turn the intellectual tide. There can be no polite political correctness here. Tolerating - intolerance is no longer an option.

The Pope in his recent speech on God and Reason has shown the way forward. A very important event occurred recently when 36 Islamic Scholars sent the Pope a communication in which they agreed – that in Islam, Allah is – “A GOD OF REASON.” This important declaration - perhaps one of the most important by a group of such eminent Islamic scholars must be seized upon. The Pope should call for a world religious conference on the scale of Vatican 2 bringing together all the top religious leaders and scholars from EVERY world religion to draft a Universal Declaration of Religious Principles. This Declaration will form the basis of an historic alliance between Christianity and Islam to turn the murderous fundamentalist tide before it is too late. Before a nuclear weapon is exploded in the Name of Allah in a Western City killing millions.

Following would be the format of this Universal Religious Declaration.

There is only one God
God is God
God is a God of Reason.
God is not an irrational being. If God is irrational then God is not God.

Ordinary people on the street understand the words – “reason” and ‘irrational”. Any such declaration must be kept simple - not an intellectual rambling on of the Philosophy of Reason. (For a very important article on the Philosophy of Reason and Pope Benedicts controversial speech I draw your attention to article – “Socrates or Muhammad?
Joseph Ratzinger on the destiny of reason” by Lee Harris.)

God Being a God of Reason Therefore:

All violence in the Name of God/Allah is the GREATEST evil anyone can commit. Suicide is an evil act in every religion. Suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the Name of God/Allah – this is the Supreme evil act. The second most evil act is killing, maiming, and torturing others to the Greater Glory of God/Allah. The concept of Jihad as religious holy war must be condemned. Violence in religion must be totally and
completely renounced – WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. There is no heaven for these murderers. No mansions. No virgins. Just the black hole of eternal damnation. If God /Allah believes in violence then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God of Reason Therefore:

Women and men are equal in the eyes of God. Women are the equal of men. God did not create women to be the chattel or slaves of men. Females have full rights in society before the law, under the rule of law, can dress any way they freely desire without fear of death, walk the streets without a male relative escort, do any occupation, receive all educational rights, drive planes, trains, automobiles, fly to the stars, choose their husbands etc. These equal rights of women in society are very important. Their exercise without fear of violence must be declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION in any such declaration. If God/Allah is a sexist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God of Reason Therefore:

There are many ways to God/Allah. Each individual has the total and complete right to find his/her own way to God/Allah or not. Religious freedom is the right of all mankind. To practice ones religious beliefs non – violently is a corner stone of all civilized societies. It is an unimpeachable right.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore:

All human beings are created equal. All races are created equal. God/Allah does not wish that any human being be a slave. No one person is the lesser of the other. To use religion to spread hate against other races, religions in places of worship, employing television or any other medium, teaching hatred to the young in schools – this is evil incarnate. If God/Allah is a racist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore

God/Allah blessed man with an intelligence to reason, to explore, to seek the truth of any question – total freedom of thought. To think and reason without fear of jail/death. It is against the will of God/Allah to threaten anyone with death, torture or prison for freely exercising his God/Allah given brain. The human brain is the greatest gift God/Allah has ever bestowed on man. It was given to mankind to purse - the arts, literature, sciences, intellectual pursuits. Its free exercise is the will of God/Allah. Declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah is anti intellectual then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore

All mankind has the right to freedom and democracy, equality before the law, freedom of action, freedom of thought, right to elect their leaders. God /Allah does not want dictators and tyrants to rule over other men. NO EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah does not believe in the right of mankind to Freedom and Democracy then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

Pope Benedict has opened the way to a great reconciliation of the world religions. A Grand Conference issuing this Universal Declaration of Religious Rights and Freedoms to be read in every Church, Synagogue, Mosque would be the start of an alliance between faiths against ALL religious extremists. A turning point in the struggle for the minds of young people especially young Muslims who are being constantly bombarded by a religious evil ideology.

Intolerance can never be tolerated in a free and democratic society. Those who refuse to accept Western democratic rights and freedoms, the teachings of a God of Reason, must be cased out into the darkness. IT’S TIME FOR TOUGH LOVE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST STYLE.

By; Larry Houle
intermedusa@yahoo.com

One must be aware that the Catholic Church and the Christian Churches don't have as much in common as you would think. They don't pray to the same God, nor do they find salvation in the same place. We need to separate the two when making judgements based on faith and history. The Catholic group often calls themselves Christians yet the conservative Christian group will never call themselves Catholic. Often clumping the two together causes false assumptions.

How to people explain the good and bad gods of peoples who never heard of Jews, Christians or the Bible? Some of them even sacrificed humans to appease those gods. Were all of these different peoples equally moronic or were they responding to real spirits in the world the best way they knew how? How is it that you think you of all people are so far above all those other peoples through history? Just mocking Christianity isn't enough. They didn't invent gods. All they did was use the Bible which was the way The One real God chose to reveal himself to Mankind to help man quit responding as they were to what they knew was there but could not really know.

to "Anonymous"

1. I did not say evil was a Christian concept; I said Satan was.

2. Nope, don't worry about only getting a two-fold return at all.

3. By your definition of sacred, perhaps Wiccans should have chosen the stake.

4. Would you find the cross upside down blasphemous? The Pentacle was chosen before I arrived on the scene.

5. Actually, the "wise woman" trait runs in the family. I showed the trait, and was taught by my aunt. Along with two cousins.

Someone mentioned Buddhist Monks who set themselves on fire in protest during the war in Vietnam. There was a case this year of a Protestant Pastor in Germany (not too sure of the exact facts here, a Christian in Europe in any case, who set himself on fire to protest the Islamization of his country. It does bring attention to a problem. It does show great courage and commitment to a cause. But the most important thing, the critical factor, is that these people didn't kill innocent victims like the low down Muslims who blow themselves up not just in "protest" but as a deliberate tactic to kill Jews or others. When your final act on earth is killing innocent human beings there can be ZERO doubt that Hell is the ONLY place you go. When Muslims start blowing themselves up or setting themselves on fire without killing anyone but themself then and only then will I listen to whatever it is they are "complaining" about or "protesting".

The Koran:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued" (Surat At-Tauba 9:29)

If you do not believe in God the same way that Muhammad did you could convert and be subdued or lose your life. This is peace?

There was an article on Wikepedia about Wiccans and it had this penta-star symbol, which is also used by Satanists. Any connection?"

"Thank you for this question. Let me say this very clearly, WICCA IS NOT SATANISM. Satan is a Christian concept."

Really, do you really believe it was these pesky Christians that invented EVIL (aka Satan?)

LOL! Evil was invented by various religions 1,000s of years ago before Christianity and other religious recognized it too. In the PErsian old religion, in particular, good and evil were two sides of ONE God. (Hormuz was the good and Ariman the bad. Spellings vary)

" The first Wiccan rede is "If it harms none, do what you will". The second rede is the Law of the Three-fold Return. Simply stated, we believe whatever energy we send out will return to us three times as strong."

Did you ever worry that good energy you send out will be actually returned to you only twice as strong? As a long-term investor, I would.

"The Pentacle represents the four elements crowned by "Akasha", or spirit, and is encircled to represent the connection between all. It is as sacred to us as the Cross is to Christians, the Star of David to Jews, and the Crescent and Star to Muslims."

Of all these symbols, only the cross has any justification, due to the martyrdom of Christ, to be sacred. With the Star of David a second-if anybody has more evidence on that let us know.

But the Moslem Symbol and the penta-star are just geometrical shapes. The moslem one is just the moon when it is a quarter-full. WHy are these sacred?

"I believe some Satanists use the five-pointed star with spirit pointing downwards. I frankly find this blasphemous."

Why would one consider something blasphemous just because it is upside down? If it is a satanic symbol when pointing downwards, why in the world did WICCA adopt an almost identical symbol and risk being identified with Satanists (that are giulty of all kinds of crimes on top of their questionable worship of evil?)

Why not stay out of trouble and adopt a symbol that is not as offensive?

Wouldn't a swastika going the other way be just as controversial as the Nazi one?

Why spend all that time to resolve the expected misunderstandings because of the choice (by whom?) of these symbols?

ALSO, I assume you were NOT brought up WIccan, but you selected that religion for some reason? (what?)

British Muslim Cleric Abu Hamza:

"You must know the cause of Allah and you must help that cause in fighting, by fighting and when you fight you kill, you don't fight just to negotiate or to show off or to make videos or to make audios, fight to kill not fight to tape"

"Killing a Kafir(Non-believer) who is fighting you is OK. Killing a Kafir for any reason, you can say it, it is OK - even if there is no reason for it"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690084.stm

I admit that there are the words "disbelievers" (infidels??), "kill", "repent" etc. in Quran and prophet Muhammad did not turn his other cheek to be slapped. He rather fought to get back to his own city that he had to escape to get rid of pursecution.
Most of the Muslims know that those words in the Quran meant for the persecuters of the prophet who were disbelievers. It is there in the text of the Quran if you read it carefully.
After prophet's death Muslim warriors went to conquer world. Islam spread. But for this we cannot blame the religion. We saw Christians (the British) rule our country, the world. Christianity also spread all over the world. And now Afghanistan, Iraq. Although it is sure that the Bible did not teach to conquer countries.
It's sad that we see a section of Muslims are bringing back those words with willful incorrect meaning.
So we find that every thing do not come from religion or religious books. Today, in Bangladesh political parties have taken violent way to protest. The leading party claims itself to be secular, and there are many Hindu leaders in it. What would you say for the killings, the unprecedented anarchy? They are quarrelling over the constitution.
Look at Sri Lanka, India, Nepal where the conflicting parties are not all Muslims.
I think this makes clear what I like to say.

I would like to get a reaction from Muslim men and women on the following article:

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- Saudi women still can't drive cars, but they can sell them. Potential buyers can go to an all-women showroom where, for the first time, other women will help them choose a car and answer questions about horsepower, carburetors and other automotive features.
Neither the saleswomen nor the female buyers can take the car out for a test drive because women are banned from driving in Saudi Arabia - even though they have been allowed to own cars for decades and hire male drivers. Almost half the autos belong to women.
The kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam has long limited what women can do outside the home, seeking to keep them from coming into contact with men who aren't relatives.
So touchy is the issue of women driving that people who previously called for dialogue about whether Saudi Arabia should remain the only Arab nation that bans female drivers have been largely silenced by a wave of condemnation from conservatives. Mindful of those sensitivities, the Riyadh car dealership that opened the all-women showroom asked that its name not be used.
The seven female saleswomen at the spacious showroom insist they aren't pushing for female driving but only providing comfort for women who want to buy cars and don't like to go to dealerships run by men. With the sexes segregated in schools, restaurants and banks, interaction between salesmen and women customers is awkward for many Saudis.
"I don't support women driving even if a permission is given for them to do so, because the society is not prepared for such a step," said Widad Merdad, one of the saleswomen, which is privately owned and - like many in Saudi Arabia - offers a range of cars.
While the introduction of car saleswomen into the work force may seem a gain for Saudi women, some say that for every step forward, women suffer other setbacks.
Saudi writer Maram Mekkawi cited a recent incident in which female doctors attending a conference in the same room as men - a rare event in the kingdom - were asked to leave because one speaker refused to address a mixed group. The women left, sparking outrage among other women.
In a column in Al-Watan newspaper, Mekkawi said the women doctors wouldn't have been kicked out had Saudi society not programmed them to accept such humiliation.
"I'm sorry to say that I have found in the Western world men and women with much more manly stands than ours here, where we claim a monopoly on values and principles," Mekkawi wrote.
"Would I be blamed if I felt like a third-class or even 10th-class citizen?" she added.
Some people wonder if the new all-women showroom will meet the fate of a similar business forced to close shortly after it opened in Jiddah a few years ago.
A Saudi woman in public relations said anything that brings women closer to cars is seen as a threat by conservatives, who think female driving will open the way for women's emancipation.
The woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of being harassed, said she was forced to cancel a women-only private viewing of new models of a popular car a year ago when religious police agents stormed into the dealership hours before the reception.
When told the reception was intended only to show cars to women, the police retorted that the vehicles could be taken to the women's homes for private viewings, she said.
It's not only men who oppose women driving, however.
Ruqiya al-Duwaighry, in a letter to the opinion page of Al-Watan, wrote that driving "strips women of their femininity" and puts them in situations that might violate the ban on the sexes mixing.
Driving "may subject her to give up the veil or mix with strange men, such as workers at gas stations or security men at checkpoints," she wrote. "Women, by nature, cannot cope with such hard work."
Others say women should at least learn how to drive so they can cope in emergencies, especially in households that cannot afford drivers. The Saudi Gazette recently told the story of a woman who disguised herself as a man to drive her elderly father to an emergency room as he was having a heart attack.
At the showroom, where a half-dozen cars sit on gleaming marble floors shielded from the view of people outside by blackened windows, Merdad said the employees get several weeks of training - but not how to drive.
The showroom is attached to a dealership run by men with more than 100 cars on display. Female shoppers can watch a live feed of that showroom on a flat-screen TV in a comfortable seating area. If one sees a car she likes, it is brought into the female showroom.
"It's better than seeing the car in a catalog," said Maha Mohsen, a marketing representative.

Beheaded girls were Ramadan 'trophies'
Stephen Fitzpatrick, Jakarta correspondent
November 09, 2006
THREE Christian high school girls were beheaded as a Ramadan "trophy" by Indonesian militants who conceived the idea after a visit to Philippines jihadists, a court heard yesterday.

The girls' severed heads were dumped in plastic bags in their village in Indonesia's strife-torn Central Sulawesi province, along with a handwritten note threatening more such attacks.

The note read: "Wanted: 100 more Christian heads, teenaged or adult, male or female; blood shall be answered with blood, soul with soul, head with head."

Javanese trader Hasanuddin appeared in Jakarta Central Court yesterday charged with planning and directing the murders in October last year. He faces a death sentence if found guilty under anti-terrorism legislation.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20726085-2703,00.html

Anonymous :
" wiccan :

(wiccan shakes her pom-poms and yells, "Way to go, smafdy!")"

There was an article on Wikepedia about Wiccans and it had this penta-star symbol, which is also used by Satanists. Any connection?"

Thank you for this question. Let me say this very clearly, WICCA IS NOT SATANISM. Satan is a Christian concept. The first Wiccan rede is "If it harms none, do what you will". The second rede is the Law of the Three-fold Return. Simply stated, we believe whatever energy we send out will return to us three times as strong. Worshipping an "evil" being would violate the first law, and be very dangerous under the second.

The Pentacle represents the four elements crowned by "Akasha", or spirit, and is encircled to represent the connection between all. It is as sacred to us as the Cross is to Christians, the Star of David to Jews, and the Crescent and Star to Muslims.

I believe some Satanists use the five-pointed star with spirit pointing downwards. I frankly find this blasphemous.

I think it's important to try to teach Muslims that what they believe is false, but why should they listen to somebody tring to soften their integrity? The Koran explicitly teaches of a radical religious Jihad. The real Muslims are the radical ones, the muslims who don't take action to convert all non-believers are the ones who don't have the right view of Islam. Maybe instead of trying to tell everybody they are intolerant with their views, we should try to explain why they are false. If a religious belief happens to be the way things really are, nobody's view of how "intolerant" it is matters. That is the way things are. Truth is the way things are, not the way we think they should be.

" wiccan :

(wiccan shakes her pom-poms and yells, "Way to go, smafdy!")"

There was an article on Wikepedia about Wiccans and it had this penta-star symbol, which is also used by Satanists. Any connection?

(wiccan shakes her pom-poms and yells, "Way to go, smafdy!")

In this vein, I posted the following on Post Global back in September. Conceited fool that I am, I still think it's pretty good.

"1. No religion is inherently good or evil. The good, kind, tolerant man will find that in his religion which supports his inclinations; the bad, hateful, intolerant man will do the same. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all been used to justify the most appalling crimes against humanity; they have also inspired their followers to fight against these crimes. You get out of religion what you put in.

2. "You did this to us, so it's OK for us to do this to you! Nuh-uh! Uh-huh!" You could follow this argument back to Homo Habilis and still not find justice. Every clan, tribe, city-state, and nation has used force to impose their will on another; none are righteous in this regard, so stop acting like you've got a perfect excuse to hurt each other. You don't.

3. Keep your religion to yourself. If your actions aren't sufficient witness to your faith, then you're doing it wrong. Conversion by coercion isn't salvation, it's rape. (Doesn't matter if it's the threat of death or hellfire, it's still rape.) Is this really how you want to honor the Divine?

One Light, many paths. Blessed Be."

" c cook :

Alethia,such a pretty name,and a lovely person, I am sure.You want to convince us Jesus was a peace loving man who spread love and forgiveness through out the land.Your motiffs (SIC!) are pure I am sure,but how do you expect me, a possible nonbeliever, (you are not sure what you are?) to accept Jesus and let him fill my heart with love and forgiveness,when I hear such hate coming from your mouth"

If you cannot see the obvious, I doubt that anybody can help you.

However, if you intentionally make false charges, such as the charge that hate has EVER come from Alethia's mouth in ANY of her accurate posts, (most of which are 100% quotes anyway, offering little in the way of opinion), how can you ask us to take you seriously?

I have read dozens of Alethia's numerous posts and I have NEVER EVER seen anything even remotely hateful.

And I am largely an Agnostic, mind you. BUT a Historically LITERATE one. And I am offended when other posters post nonsense. Alethia does not do that, you can take her quotes to the bank.

That last one at 12:41 was by me. Sorry.

I was away for a while, but I've managed to scan the entries here since I left, and there's just too much to respond to.

Islam: Preaches conversion or death. Practices same. Usurper of Jew's claim to being god's chosen people (if you don't believe them, read their book). Widely perceived as murdering bastards. In it for the power.

Christianity: Preaches peace, love, and understanding (if you don't believe them, read their book). Practices conversion or death. Bastard offspring of Judiasm, Greek thought on the nature of god, Roman militarism, and, perhaps a touch of Buddhism. Widely perceived as murdering bastards, with a positive marketing message. In it for the money and the power.

Judaism: Don't mess with us. Peolpe have been trying to wipe us off the face of the earth since forever. We've grabbed a chunck of land, and we aim to hold it. Even though we don't need to, we claim this land as ours based on our position as God's chosen people, - having received deed and title directly from him (if you don't believe us, read our book). We don't care if you convert, we're not really sure if you can. We've proven we can live peacefully in many cultures, nonetheless, we keep getting blamed for everything and attacked. Keep your distance, or we'll jack you up. In it for survival.

Other religions: Other than some Moslem/Hindu strife in India, everybody seems to be minding their own damned business.

Atheists: We think y'all are totally freekin nuts. We understand human nature, and the need for some groups to justify their inhumanity to one another by claiming that they are acting in accordance with a "higher power". We understand that the willingness and desire of one tribe to dominate another trancends religion and that this behavior will continue for as long as mankind exists. What makes us ill is the use of an imaginary being to justify it all. we know intellectual dishonest when we see it. Widely mischaracterized as being wishy-washy and unable to choose or commit. In it for the long run.

TO ABC:

You are correct that Bhuddist monks have set themselves on fire, and that Hindu's placed the wives of their dearly male departed on the funeral pyres.

However, that is still a far cry from the widespread atrocities that have been committed for centuries in the name of Islam and Christianity.

God did not write the Bible and neither did Jesus. From what I read here, Mohammed didn't write the Koran either.

Therefore, both texts are hearsay written by fallible humans. And for that bunch of baloney people go on the barricades and kill each other.

I don't get it!

Alethia,such a pretty name,and a lovely person, I am sure.You want to convince us Jesus was a peace loving man who spread love and forgiveness through out the land.Your motiffs are pure I am sure,but how do you expect me, a possible nonbeliever, to accept Jesus and let him fill my heart with love and forgiveness,when I hear such hate coming from your mouth.Evidently you didn`t find the same Jesus I did.Better luck next time. Love, understanding,and forgiveness, will give us all peace someday, of this I am sure.Maybe this dialog will be the beginning!!!

These posts are getting longer and longer - sorry.

Realist

No need to apologize, but, as an alleged Realist, I assume you realize that the longer they are, the fewer, if any, will read them, EVEN if they are really, realy good?

I have read none of them. I read enough lengthy articles at work as it is.

That's why the 1-page executive summary was invented.

Alternatively, put one important idea in one paragraph, and post it as one post, and save the rest for later.

Daniel,
Sorry, I missed your last post altogether when I made my last reply. This forum is moving very fast and I’m pretty slow at responding.

You said:
“I find that a grotesque piece of trickery on your part to somehow make evolution non-random by strictly separating change from selection.

Anyone capable of basic logical analysis can see that although of course there are patterns to evolution--we see it everywhere from dog breeding to farming, etc.--not to mention in examples from nature--all these patterns exist on a background of randomness if we exclude God or intelligent design--and this is what the general reader means by evolution being random.”

I wasn’t trying to trick you, although I should have been more accurate. I should have said “evolution is not purely random” instead of “evolution is not random”. People are always saying “Evolution is random, so how can it ever produce something? The reason evolution can produce complex life forms is because it is directed by the environment. Evolution causes animals to adapt to suit their environment. People don’t understand how it works because they don’t understand that selection is not random. Animals that aren’t suited to their environment die, so their genes are not passed on. To be strictly correct, genes that make animals better suited to reproducing themselves in their environment are more likely to be replicated. That’s really all there is to it.

You wrote:
“If you exclude God or an intelligent designer of whatever type, it makes little difference how long a pattern goes on--it still peters out in randomness.”

Evolution is an optimisation algorithm. There are many computer algorithms that use randomness to search for optimal solutions to problems. There are many optimisation problems that occur in engineering that are so difficult to solve that it may take millions of years using today’s best computers even to solve a relatively small instance of the problem, i.e. to be sure that you have the best solution. Often for problems like these, we use a random search strategy that starts with a guess at a solution and keeps improving on the guess by making a random change to the solution. Each time we change the solution, we check it to see if it is better than the previous solution, if the new solution is better, the new solution is kept, otherwise it is thrown away and we keep the previous solution. In this way you get better and better solutions to the problem. You can often find the best solution or a solution that is close to optimal in a reasonable time.

It is really important to understand the difference between the process that I just described and just random guessing. If there are trillions of possibilities and say a few thousand of those are acceptable solutions, if you just take random guesses, and keep the best guess, it will take a very long time to get close to a good solution. Most people think that evolution works like that. The process that I described only works if the random changes to the current solution are small. If the changes are too large, then it becomes the same as just taking one random guess after another and you don’t get anywhere. In that case you would be right and evolution would peter out in randomness.

If you don’t get the difference between a totally random process and a directed process, here is another game to illustrate the difference. You need ten dice. The idea is to try to roll ten sixes. It will take you, on average, 60,466,176 attempts before you roll ten sixes if you roll all ten dice each time. If you instead roll all the dice and then leave all of the dice that have sixes alone and just roll the dice that don’t show a six, it won’t take you very long to get ten sixes. This is the difference between a random process without selection and a random process with selection. In this instance you are doing the selection. In nature it is the environment that does the selection.

I forgot to explain how evolution could go on forever. Evolution stops when an organism is well suited to it's environment and any small change is unlikely to make it more likely to survive. Cockroaches are very well adapted, and sharks as well. They have not changed for hundreds of millions of years if my memory serves me. But complex systems like ecosystems can change in chaotic ways and might keep changing forever, so evolution does not have to stop or peter out.

“This is why evolution is so threatening to all attempts to superimpose order on existence as religion does. People who truly believe in evolution really have no choice but to call for man to take evolution into his own hands and hope that he evolves to where pattern will further be discovered on the randomness of existence without God, or quite simply there will be a fallback into religion.”

You raise an interesting issue. I don’t agree that we don’t have a choice. We don’t have to take evolution into our own hands. Many people are frightened of that possibility. I agree that scientists need to be responsible in what they do and there must be laws to control the pace and direction of research. This is particularly true for medical research. In actual fact, there is a very effective mechanism to control scientists – it’s called funding. If you don’t like scientists doing certain types of research, then don’t give them any funding for that. This tends to happen naturally anyway. Having said that, we need to apply rational criteria to determine what research should proceed. I think that cutting funding into stem cell research for religious reasons is stupid. I think the decision should be based on what the benefits are for humanity.

Having said that, I think we eventually will take evolution into our own hands. I think the benefits are just too tempting. We don’t have the technology to do so now, but technology is advancing at an exponential pace (some actually argue that it’s advancing at a hyper-exponential pace), and we probably will have the technology in maybe the next few hundred years. I’m not frightened of this as long as the focus is on proving that the benefits of any particular research outweigh the risks.

If I understood you correctly, you have indicated your concern that technology is advancing rapidly, but morality can’t keep up. I can tell you that may scientists are concerned about this, and I agree that our legal systems can’t keep up with the rapid pace of development. Our legal systems are very antiquated and need to make use of more technology and need to catch up. People need to be better educated and better informed about the implications of scientific research so they can make informed decisions. This is why I’m constantly angered by religious people distorting and misrepresenting science to suit their religious agendas. They can’t just kill us anymore, but they can use propaganda to misrepresent what we are doing.

Evolution is threatening to religious people because it removes the need for God as a means of explaining our existence. Read “Darwin’s Dangerous Idea” if you haven’t already. It is exactly about the concerns that you have. I haven’t read it myself, but I’ve read a few of Daniel Dennett’s books. I think Dennett is one of the smartest people on the planet.

“But evolution as championed by the Democratic party and against the religious in the U.S. amounts to nothing more than man arriving at socialism or something.”

I didn’t know that the Democratic Party is against religion and I didn’t know that it promotes evolution. If they are in favour of improving science education, then I hope they win the next election.

I don’t see anything wrong with socialism. The US is currently in a mess, I think largely because it is not socialist enough. You only seem to have a choice between right wing and extreme right wing. I really don’t understand why Christians support the Republicans. Socialism is much more compatible with what Jesus taught than capitalism is.

You keep asking what the goal of science is. I don’t really think it’s a meaningful question. Science is a tool like a hammer. A hammer can be used to build a house or hit someone on the head. It depends on the goals of the person using the hammer. The same applies to science.

What is science? Science is a process for understanding the world in which we live. The main purpose of the scientific method is to compensate for the biases and limitations of individual scientists. This makes science a very reliable means of getting at the truth. Sorry if your teeth are gnashing.

There is a difference between pure and applied science. Pure science is motivated by curiosity about the world we live in, but it should be guided by what will provide the most benefit to mankind. Applied science is all about using the knowledge we have to improve our lives.

What goals do scientists have? The best scientists are motivated by curiosity, and their goal is just to learn as much as they can. Many scientists are motivated by ego. They like to show off how clever they are. I think this is probably true of all scientists to some degree. It’s no different to athletes or any other profession. You want to be the best in your field.

You seem to have a very negative view of science. I want to know as much about myself and the world in which I live so that I can help to make the world a better place to live in. The more we know, the better equipped we are to deal with the problems we face. Science is the best tool we have for this. Why are you so against truth?

“I find the entire philosophy of science to be extremely problematical. And God help you if you tell me these are problems of philosophy and not science. We all know science rules the day--that philosophy is not what is in combat with religion today. We have rather the scientific viewpoint--whatever that is--in conflict with religion. And God help you if you try to divorce science from technology as another wiggler I spoke to tried to...”

Science is not trying to combat religion. What puts religion in conflict with science is that science keeps exposing the lies that religion promotes to perpetuate itself. I liked what the Dalai Lama said when he was asked what would happen if science proved that something fundamental that Tibetan Buddhism teaches was wrong. He said Tibetan Buddhism would have to change. I like the current Dalai Lama. He’s a very smart fellow and extremely nice too! If religion is telling the truth, it has nothing to fear from science. Only if religion is lying should it fear science. I used to be a Buddhist for a while. Buddhism is one of the few religions that I really respect. It’s not a religion based on lies, it’s a religion based on compassion.

I don’t understand what problem you have with the philosophy of science. You seem to want to be religious, but science has dispelled all of your illusions and you are angry about it. Is that it? Get over it! Try Zen, try Taoism. Those are great religions and they don’t conflict with science. Or join the Church of Reality.

“I loathe all the sneaking about, trying to cut things this way and that. Another sneak about was your attempt to defend morality without religion by speaking about the Japanese. I lived in Japan and indeed the Japanese are an extraordinary people. Perhaps they are evidence of morality without religion. The question is why. Could it possibly be because of genetics? But no, I suspect you will champion the cultural view as so many liberals in the U.S. do...In other words, your view is a hopelessly confused mish-mash of declaring evolution is not random (when in your own words it exists on a background of randomness), and that the Japanese are evidence of morality without religion when really I do not even have to guess that you will say precisely that evolution has nothing to do with it and that it is strictly cultural and that we all can learn it (and not need religion).”

No, I don’t believe morality is strictly cultural at all, that would be inconsistent as you correctly point out. Even dogs exhibit basic morality. I used to own a dog and he snapped at me one day. Later he came up to me whimpering and started licking me. He knew he’d done something wrong. I believe that morality is a product of human nature which is primarily genetic, although culture is important too. Evolution explains perfectly well where morality comes from. We can survive better if we cooperate with each other, so evolution will favour organisms that cooperate. I think it’s that simple.

I think the main problem that humanity faces is that we are not “designed” to live in the world we have created for ourselves. This is why we have moral issues: we get angry, we can be selfish, we are territorial and possessive. We’re capable of being both kind and cruel. It’s just the way we are. All of these traits are useful for living “in the wild”. They’re all useful for survival in different circumstances, but they are less useful in the society that we currently live in. I think we invented religion and morality as a means of guiding and controlling our human nature. The problem is that it is based on illusions and manipulation. It’s a two edged sword and it can be used to bring out our better nature or it can be used to divide us and whip up hate. It can easliy go off the rails. Our genes determine our limits and our personality, but we are each capable of a wide range of behaviour. I think culture is an important influence on our behaviour too. Religion is a part of culture.

You wrote: “The sheer beauty of her name is enough to convince me you are wrong.”

I think you can have both truth and beauty. :-) Alethia seems like a really lovely person, her faith is very important to her and I don’t like to mess with that. But she is being deceived, and she’s come here to discuss her faith and I consider it important that I tell her what I believe to be the truth, just as she is doing. I value truth and I don’t like to deceive people.

I left my religion gradually and relatively painlessly. I felt a kind of nagging guilty feeling like there was something wrong with me for a few years after giving up Christianity. Many flavours of Christianity make people feel guilty and worthless in order to stop them from thinking. It’s very effective. Losing faith can be very painful and it can isolate your from your friends and family, so I don’t normally make a point of trying to dispel people’s illusions. I’ve been an atheist for twenty years, but I’ve rarely ever discussed religion with any believers, except where they have come preaching on atheist or similar forums. I once had a discussion on a philosophy forum with a pastor who worked in prisons, and I could see that I severely weakened his faith. I felt very bad about it because I could see that it troubled him severely. I don't think atheism is for everyone. You can't just stop believing something that you have believed for most of your life. It can be a severe shock to lose your faith.

These posts are getting longer and longer - sorry.

Realist

" Concerned :

As someone who claims to have been a Christian in the past, Victoria you really should be ashamed of yourself "

Victoria is a discredited Liar. Not only in the details of her posts re Islam and CHristianity, but also in the false rumors she circulated yesterday, claiming, repeatedly, that Alethia had been "banned" (SIC!) from this forum, even though Alethia NEVER EVER posted ANYTHING offensive!

And that old song and dance above, I do not believe on4e word of it, it is like those hate-filled callers that call C-span and claim they had been Republicans and then spew a ton of hate against President G W Bush.

" Alethia :

Dear Muslims,

Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? "

are you kidding? It is even illegal to worship in public! NO Relgion other than the savage hate-filled WAHABBI Moslem (the funders of the murders of the 3,000+ americans at the WTC, for which they are still paying) can publicly exercise that right in Saudi Arabia, for example, whjere CHristians have to go hide within an Embassy chapel to practice their religion.

As someone who claims to have been a Christian in the past, Victoria you really should be ashamed of yourself trying to say that Islam "respects" Jesus. Islam can say whatever it wants about Jesus but the starting point, the fact, is that it DENIES the deity of Christ and that he ROSE FROM THE DEAD. Maybe some stupid Christians are willing to accept that sort of backhanded compliment but they really should know what a fool they are for doing so since without those key facts Jesus is nothing more than a swell guy - hardly the sort of guy you want to give your entire life and eternal future to.

As for the Fez story - MUCH of Islamic history is not well known or is presented BY MUSLIMS as fantasy bearing no resemblance to reality whatsoever. Whether or not that particular incident is exactly authentic the spirit of it is. Too many fools today gloss over the bloody history of Islam and pretend that the current terrorism is some sort of strange diversion from the wonderful peaceful adventures of Islam. They are ignorant fools. The West must wake up and learn the truth about the history of Islam.

Dear Muslims,

Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations?

In Jesus, Love and Truth,

Alethia

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Matthew 6:43-45).

" Craig : It may have actually been destroyed in 391AD under orders of Emperor Theodosius I of Rome"

Oh isn' t this priceless. Is it as accurate as all the other nonsense in support of the Moslem Savages aND mURDERERS you are spweing here today?

First of, Theodosios was NOT an EMperor of ROME (!!!!!)

You are 70 years out of date on this one. The capital was MOVED to COnstantinople by COnstantine the great MORE THAN a half century EARLIER.

Sounds like YOU are quoting from "chick tracts" as you so derogatorili accuse others, far better informed than you are in this forum, oh Moslem Apologist!

And since you are at it, are you also denying the holocaust of the 1.75-2 MILLION ARMENIANS by the davage moslem TURKS and their moslem accomplices in 1915?

LOL!

Islam a religion of peace MY ASS!

Ignorant idiots! Mullah Brainwashed sheep...

" Craig :

"See how savage moslem conquerors in 632 or 642 AD scaked ALEXANDRIA's LIBRARY (and even if you only have an ounce of classical education you'd know the 600,000 PRICESS volumes there were the sum total of human knowledge and Western Civilization at the time"

Actually, the jury is still out on this. It may have actually been destroyed in 391AD under orders of Emperor Theodosius I of Rome. That is, it really might have been the Christians that did it."

tHE JURY is NOT still out and has not been out for decades.

BOTH these above things happened. The library also suffered fires etc from time to time, BUT you really do not believe that all that was MADE UP by some PRAVDA like Journalist working for Byzantium? Laugable.

OMAR (UMAR) was a historical person, and his infamous "rationalization" for using the priceless 600,000 volumes of the library as Firewood sound 100% genuine: (from memory)

"If these volumes agree with the Coran, they are redundant. If not, they are heretic. In both cases, they can and will be burned"

And it took SIX MONTHS to burn the priceless Heritage of Humanity to fuel Omar's BATHS.

(at least the murderous, illiterate savages had good hygiene habits.. maybe they copied these from the Greco-Romans too!)

" kaan kalyon :

The Greek theather is the begining of acting. The Pope and the leaders of the Turkish politicions are acting like nothing but a represantation of greek theather!"

You are giving them far too much credit.

I knew the greek Theater, they wer enothing like the greek THeater.

With their shiny white dresses or outfits or whatever they are called, they looked more like a bunch of ELVIS IMPERSONATORS.

" It's like i've seen this movie before. Reliegiion and human needs do not nessesearly meet.I think humanity will advance much better whithout faith."

Won't happen. Less than 1% of the population have what it takes to go thru life with the aid of science only.

"Let us think about how we advance the well being of world population not faith."

See the history, it never ever happened, EVEN the Fascist regimes of all colors (Nazis, Stalin, Mao, etc) all replaced Religion with the CULT OF PERSONALITY. Instead of the Virgin and Jesus, we had Mao's puffy face, or Stalin's pock-marked one, or Hitler's ranting and raving.

You are wishing for a UTOPIA, but this greek word means literally "NO PLACE", there is NO PLACE in the world where you can ever find such a society.

Dear Concerned,

I am still here.

In Jesus' Love and Truth,

Alethia

This is an idle question borne of a meandering mind.
What is the power that drives people to such passions and for millenia? Atheists discount the intangible it seems- unles i misunderstand- i dont lke to presume to speak for other people and im sure they are quite varied in their thinking.
But there seems to be no central doctrine- no prophet if you will for lack of a better term- that has held that invisiblebond of such unity- destructive or constructive. It seems to be lacking some integral insight into real human nature- not idealized, unrealistic- but with all its broad scopes of absolute corrupton to sublime selfless submission to an ideal...
I cannot think of any secular philosophy that has so gripped the imaginations and passions of men,
i just cant. Perhaps i am insufficient to the task.
But it truly seems the study of humnity has not caught up with the inspired lightening insights that faith does offer us.
Where is that humanist codex of life- that manual of human nature? That is still extant. That has proven itself over a millenium or even half of one? Just a thought after morning prayers.
peace

The Greek theather is the begining of acting. The Pope and the leaders of the Turkish politicions are acting like nothing but a represantation of greek theather! It's like i've seen this movie before. Reliegiion and human needs do not nessesearly meet.I think humanity will advance much better whithout faith.Let us think about how we advance the well being of world population not faith.

"Therefore the average Faithful SACRIFICES in the present, in the hope of an UNCERTAIN Return in the future. Moslems do not drink, Christians may not do this and that, and should instead give more to charity etc etc. ALL in return to rewards and avoiding penalties later."

I passionately disagree with this statement.

Yes, there are promised rewards in the distant future that, should a religious person's basis for faith be faulty, will never come.

But not all the "sacrifices" that are made are detrimental. A person who does not drink alcohol for religious reasons may miss out on a social sport that many people enjoy--but will never have to worry about being late to work the next day because they have a hangover, sacrificing a habitual pleasure for 9 months or facing Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, will save money they would have spent on alcohol (which can add up) that can be put towards more beneficial things like education, savings, or other entertainment--etc etc etc.

These "sacrifices" often have immediate and tangible benefits that enrich the lives of those who make them. Often they aren't seen as a real sacrifice anyhow, and if they are, the rewards both in this life and the next clearly mean more to the person making those choices.

Many of them are choices you or I might make even if we don't subscribe to that faith--for example, I don't believe there's anything wrong with drinking, my church doesn't either (until it becomes excessive, of course), but I don't really like alcohol to begin with, so I don't. I have yet to see how this is harming my life seriously, even if some of my friends don't quite get how I can prefer water to a good drink.

There are people who have sacrificed for faith in ways that were detrimental to their lives, however, and not necessarially by choice. There's a big difference between willing and beneficial sacrifices and coercive, detrimental ones. I hope that you can see that not every faith is a sort of cult demanding the second sort.

"Another fun fact about Fez: The Red Fez hat got that way after Muslims massacred 20,000 Christians in Fez dumping them in a ditch into which the Muslims dipped their white hats. Got to give it to them, they get style points for that one."

There's no historical evidence for this either, unless you count Chick tracts as historical evidence.

"See how savage moslem conquerors in 632 or 642 AD scaked ALEXANDRIA's LIBRARY (and even if you only have an ounce of classical education you'd know the 600,000 PRICESS volumes there were the sum total of human knowledge and Western Civilization at the time"

Actually, the jury is still out on this. It may have actually been destroyed in 391AD under orders of Emperor Theodosius I of Rome. That is, it really might have been the Christians that did it.

CONCERN- I APPRECIATE YOUR FERVOR, WERE YOU AWARE THAT THERE ARE MANY STORIES ABOUT JESUS(ATA) IN THE QUR'AN? AS A MATTER OF FACT THERE IS A WHOLE BOOK DEVOTED TO THE FAMILY OF JESUS. SURA 3 AL IMRAN

SO, ISLAM MOST DEFINITELY "INCLUDES" JESUS(ATA).
HW IS ONE OF OUR REVERED PROPHETS. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN ASKED WHO WOULD BE CLOSEST TO HIM IN PARADISE, MOHAMMED(PBUH) REPLIED THAT HE AND JESUS(ATA) WOULD BE LIKE THIS IN PARADISE. HE THEN CROSSED HIS FIRST 2 FINGERS AS A SIGN OF CLOSENESS.

DO YOU KNOW WHO THE MOST LOVED AND RESPECTED WOMAN IN ISLAM IS?
IT IS MARY(ATA) THE MOTHER OF JESUS(ATA).

INSTEAD OF WORRYING SO MUCH ABOUT DESTROYING ISLAM- CREATE FOR YOURSELF A CONSTRUCTIVE PHILOSOPHY.

There may be individual Muslims open to the peaceful message of Christ but in all honesty solving the Islamic problem will not be done through peaceful evangelization. Islam precludes that. The wholesale discretization of Islam and Muhammad is the only way the West will have to fight Islam non-violently. Destruction of Islamic "holy" sites will also likely be required but egging on the Muslims themselves to destroy in their rioting may take care of that. Altheia is most likely not banned. Her posts were very informative. Someone was just joking around about that.

So then borne from this state of western induced stark raving lunatic insanity- acceptance of christianity is created?

Disclaimer- I do not mean to imply in any way that madness is a prerequisite to acceptance of christianity.

I think Concern's theory on effective evangelization lack a certain reality-based logic.

IM SORRY CONCERNED, YOU'RE MAKING THIS TOO EASY AND IT'S BRINGING OUT MY SARCASTIC SIDE.

IM SORRY ALETHIA HAS BEEN BANNED AND GLAD SHE HAS A FRIEND. I ASSUME YOU WILL CARRY HER TORCH.
GIVE HER MY PEACE.

"WHEN YOU ATTACK PEOPLES BELIEF SYSTEMS, YOU ONLY MAKE THEM DEFENSIVE- IT IS A VERY POOR AND INEFFECTIVE WITNESS. IF YOUR MESSAGE IS VALUABLE- JUST GIVE THE "GOOD NEWS" INSTEAD."

Unfortunately that doesn't work with Islam. History has proven that. You keep refusing to examine and JUDGE Islam BASED UPON those societies that Islam has been in control of for very long periods of time. If they won't even allow Christians to share the Good News then what does that tell you?

Muhammad set Islam up so that as a totalitarian system it cannot be fought. Those in it cannot leave. Those without it CANNOT criticize it. Talk about a monopoly.

The only way that the West is going to remain free is if it declares open season on Islam and lets it fly. The truth is at some point in the future the West is going to have to use psychological operations on Islam deliberately "offending" Muslims causing them to freak out and riot and kill and destroy their own cities. It is only AFTER repeatedly putting them through this that they will eventually realize that they are being teased like a cat jumping for a feather that it cannot reach. At some point if Islam is going to coexist in the free world they are simply going to have to come to grips with what millions, billions of people REALLY THINK ABOUT ISLAM AND MUHAMMAD. If it drives them into stark raving mad insanity then so be it.

Where did all these crazy people come from?
Religions seem to have made madness acceptable.

Personal note, to ACB (it's time for your meds darling).

Victoria,

Alethia has been banned from the site

Alethia's Friend

Alethia, now you're calling
muslims a "savage horde". Your words are belying your claims of love for your fellow humans.

I responded to your post in depth in Waldmans post again, te reason is i visit the posts of the panelists before i come here and you are double and triple posting.

Read corinthians 13 again and then put it into practice. This is as judgemental as you'll ever see me get. By responding to your vitriolic attacks on muslims, I am drawing attention to something better left forgotten.

WHEN YOU ATTACK PEOPLES BELIEF SYSTEMS, YOU ONLY MAKE THEM DEFENSIVE- IT IS A VERY POOR AND INEFFECTIVE WITNESS. IF YOUR MESSAGE IS VALUABLE- JUST GIVE THE "GOOD NEWS" INSTEAD.
ARE YOU AFRAID THAT THE NEWS WONT STAND ON ITS OWN? MUST YOU PREFACE EVERY SCRIPTURE WITH SLANDER? THESE NEGATIVE ATTACKS ARE ONLY GALVANIZING THE FEAR RESPONSES OF LIKE-MINDED INDIVIDUALS AND DOES A DISSERVICE TO THE PURPOSE OF THIS SITE.

FOR THOSE WHO DONT KNOW CORINTHIANS 13 IS A VERSE FROM THE BIBLE THAT LISTS ALL THE QUALITIES OF LOVE. SOME BIBLES TRANSLATE IT AS CHARITY- ALTHOUGH THE WORDS ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK. ANOTHER OF THEMANY LIBERTIES TAKEN IN BIBLICAL TRANSLATION.
THATS ALL M SAYING ON THIS SUBJECT.
PEACE

These Hadiths demonstrate that Islam is militant and not peaceful.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."
olume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

I read some of the comments...and to be honest with you, those people who want to ridicule and undermine an entire religion; what makes you any different from all you have just preached?

You preach good faith and whatnot yet you do not see what detrimental harm you are causing by not showing respect to others, including Muslims.

Now I am not disrespecting anyone, but if you're going to share your "opinions" do so with the respect and courtesy expected and show that you can acknowledge diversity and accept it.

-Efe

"We can learn to see a little light in each of the colors; but the sparkling brightness, holding all true color, is on the other side of the prism of our human conceptions. Perhaps that is where we must go to find the light."

Jimbo- you took a lump of coal and made it a diamond. Please interrupt like that anytime! Blessed Be.

Daniel, Another great post! You ask some really important questions and raise some interesting issues..

You seem to be confusing patterns with intelligence. The universe is full of patterns. Science is all about understanding these patterns. Science assumes that the universe can be understood and described in terms of some set of mathematical laws. This assumption is not based on faith, it’s based on observation. You might interpret these patterns as evidence of God. I don’t, because I think that would be presumptuous. I can’t see any connection between the patterns observed by scientists and the stories written in religious books except that they are both attempts to make sense of the universe. Where science and religion provide competing explanations, science has always been right and religion has been wrong. I don’t see any reason why that will ever change. Science has more accurate information and better methods of drawing conclusions.

Evolution explains how “simple” laws like the ones physicists find are able to give rise to complex intelligent creatures like ourselves without any need for a designer. That’s the whole point. Intelligent design just moves the problem from one that we can study to one for which there is no explanation – it is not a scientific theory and it doesn’t explain anything. Intelligent Design can’t explain where intelligence comes from it just ignores the problem and the evidence altogether. Evolution can and does explain where intelligence comes from.

You said:
“When you drop a creator from your worldview nothing can be taken for granted. But this is precisely what scientists overwhelmingly do these days. Scientists simply believe we can be moral without religious illusions when not only are we expected to be moral without God, we are expected to take our evolution into our own hands.--But scientists have no courage of stating the latter part of that sentence--no!--they prefer no creator to existence and liberal values (Democratic party) to the point of socialism.”

I don’t understand what you mean here. Science shouldn’t take anything for granted. That’s why religion has always been wrong when it has disagreed with science. Religion takes it for granted that their books holy books are true despite the fact that they contradict what we can observe about the universe.

You seem to be talking about several things here. The first is whether an external agent created the universe or not. The second is where morality comes from. The third is which political party scientists vote for.

I think if there is a creator he she or it has nothing to do with what people wrote in religious books, and so I think it’s very unlikely that morals come from the creator. I don’t think that the creator is a he or a she. God doesn’t reproduce does he? Who would God have sex with? I don’t think “Jesus’ mother” is a sensible answer. Sexual reproduction is a product of evolution.

I don’t know which party scientists vote for in the US, but I think your guess is probably right. If I lived in the US I would probably vote Democrat because there is no sensible alternative at this time.

You seem to think that morals can only come from God. That’s a pretty unusual view for an agnostic to have. It’s a very Christian view. I disagree with you there. Other religions have different views on where morality comes from. I don’t believe people have ever needed gods to be moral. People have been around much longer than Christianity, Islam and Judaism, and those religions only represent about half of people on earth. I don’t think any of those gods are the source of all morality. Those gods set a pretty bad example for us to follow.

It makes no sense to me to expect that God is the source of morality. As I asked in another topic: What would God know about morality? Morality is all about how people should get along with each other. Who does God get along with? Who does he hang out with? Morality only makes sense in a social context. Unless there are lots of Gods who hang out together and interact socially, it just makes no sense to expect God to be the source of all morality.

I don’t have much time to reply, but I would really like to give my views on the other issues you raise, so I might do so in a later post. I’m keen to address the social implications of scientific discoveries and the future of science and religion, but I’ve got to drop my kids off at school.

Regards,
Realist

Sorry to diverge from the thread of this current conversation, but I want to say thank you to Wiccan, who used a nice metaphor yesterday:

" ... I don't see the different religions as competitors. If you shine light through a prism, it comes out a rainbow; each religion is a different color. Is blue better than yellow?"

It has been reminding me of something someone said to me a few years ago: "My Mama used to say, 'All religions fall short of the glory of God.'"

Our disagreements are unavoidable in the human dimension, because each color has some light in it. When we see the color, we tend to cling to it, as if it were all there is to the light.

I remind myself, the customer isn't always right, but the customer always has a point. We can learn to see a little light in each of the colors; but the sparkling brightness, holding all true color, is on the other side of the prism of our human conceptions. Perhaps that is where we must go to find the light.

Thanks again, Wiccan. Again, sorry for the interuption.

GILEO
FORMER GOVERNOR?HE WALKED AROUND DOING HIS THING MAKING A DOLLAR IN WRESTLING.YOU SAY THE MORE YOU TRY TO CONVERT A MUSLIM THE MORE VIOLENT THEY WILL BE.DO YOU KNOW ANY MUSLIMS?WAIT I WILL ANSWER THAT QUESTION FOR YOU NO YOU DON'T.YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THAT IT JUST SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE JUST LIKE THOR.

THOR
ONCE AGAIN YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING. YOU MADE REFERENCE TO HOW MUCH MONEY I MAKE I GUARANTEE TO I COULD BUY AND SELL A MORON LIKE YOU. NOW GO TO BED YOU HAVE TO GO TO WORK MONDAY IF YOU HAVE A JOB. WHATS FOR DINNER HOT DOGS AND BEANS?I HEAR BEING POOR SUCKS.

You don't know me,(Steve NY) but I sure know you. Jessie Ventura once mentioned you. "Weak minded".

" Gileo :

The more you try to convert Muslims the more violent they will be."

You MUST Be Joking, OR you have NOTZ ONE HINT of Muman history!

IT WAS ALWAYS THE OTHER WAY AROUND! FORCIBLE OR NON FORCIBLE CONVERSIONS OF ALL KINDS OF Religions PEOPLE TO MOSLEMS.

IF (I repeat IF) Moslems KNEW what would help them PROSPER and become Literate, Wealthy, far less sick AS A SOCIETY, they would VOLUNTEER to convert to, if not Christianity (the most successful nations on earth, indeed the ones that have given us the MArvel of Modern Science and Technology!), at least to CONFUCIANISM that also respects education and hard work

instead of going around BLOWING THEMSELVES UP AND MURDERING 3,000s of INNOCENTS and then blaming it on the USA and BUSh, as this Terminally RETARDED Steve NY character!

In addition to being rude and retarded, you seem to be very offended that you had the GOOD FORTUNE to be confused for a jew.

Are you also an antisemite, scum?

Or just a... Self Hating Jew?

This forum should be off limit for village idiots like Steve NY, or at least we should be able to put them in our IGNORE LIST like we can in YAHOO forums, and not have to see their WORTHLESS DRIVEL.

The more you try to convert Muslims the more violent they will be.
Peace is only possible when religions stop trying to become more powerful.
And that is not possible.
Violence is going to here if the church does not insist on taking over the state.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 57:

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet sent seventy men from the tribe of Bani Salim to the tribe of Bani Amir. When they reached there, my maternal uncle said to them, "I will go ahead of you, and if they allow me to convey the message of Allah's Apostle (it will be all right); otherwise you will remain close to me." So he went ahead of them and the pagans granted him security But while he was reporting the message of the Prophet , they beckoned to one of their men who stabbed him to death. My maternal uncle said, "Allah is Greater! By the Lord of the Kaba, I am successful." After that they attached the rest of the party and killed them all except a lame man who went up to the top of the mountain.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.261

THOR
I MUST SAY YOU ARE THE MOST IGNORANT PERSON I HAVE COME ACROSS IN A LONG TIME ,STEVE NY MEANS I AM JEWISH?THE LAST TIME I HEARD THE WORD THOR WAS WHEN A PROSTITUTE WAS FINISHED WORKING FOR THE NIGHT AND SHE COMPLAINED SHE WAS THOR

"baskın karadeniz :

some people looks muslims from a pre-judgement perspective ıslam ıs the religion of peace lıke other religions. to prevent clashes of cıvılızatıons we must provıde allıance of cıvılızations.the pope made mıstake by hıs remarks.he must be objective.his support to Turkey for EU membership was good because EU is not a christian club."

From the little Turkish I know, your last name means "Black Sea".

Your Savior Kemal Atatuerk has saved Turkey from the grip of poverty and backwardness of ISLAM, which was a religion that preached expansionism and murder of the infidels for centuries in Europe, Asia and Africa.

If Modern Turkey abandoned ISlam (and not just its military and most politicians, that have done so, but its people too) and embraced SCIENCE as Kemal wanted it to, it would bave a much better Economy and Standard of Living, a much smaller but far wealthier population, and, despite the fact that 95%-99% of its land belongs to ASIA and NOT to Europe, it might even be accepted in the EU much more easily than it will be today.

As for Europe, study your Geography and Anthropology, it IS a CHristian CLub and has been for millenia. Even if its leaders are today mostly Secular, and despite the inflow of millions of impoverished moslems from its former colonies in Africa.

" steve ny :"

I do not reply to savages that scribble horribly missplelled passages entirely in CAPS. Go shout in a stupid ball game, you do not seem to have the brains for anything more challenging.

In addition, you FALSELY respond to Alethia, she was NOT the one that used the "LANDSMAN" reference, I DID, and it was 100% CORRECTLY SPELLED.

If you are not Jewish, then I am quite sorry for you, but BOTH the "Steve" and the "NY" were giveaways. Tells us what you are then.

As for "atheist", it is NOT a rational position, but JUST ANOTHER RELIGION, that CLAIMS, without being able to prove it, that God does not exist.

Only AGNOSTICISM has the Scientific Accuracy and HONESTY to say that I DO NOT KNOW wether various Gods Exist, and Nobody can prove or disprove their existence,(and I do not CARE either).

But I am sure all this is way above your pay grade.

PS Not only is the word "LANDSMAN" correctly spelled BOTH in German (in which i am fluent, having had 5 years of it in high school), but it is also used in YIDDISH.

And sometimes Jews use it to refer to non-jews. In one forum in the NY Times, a Jewish person addresed a Greek friend of his and said "Your Landsman George Stephanopoulos (former Clinton Whipping boy and now ANC showo host).."

SO its use is PERFECTLY FINE and go learn some German andf Yiddish before you come here, ignorant idiot, and correct what needs no correction.

OK?

ALETHAI
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I AM JEWISH?YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING.LOOKED UP THE WORD[LANDSMEN]IT SAYS ONE WHO LIVES ON THE LAND,INEXPERIENCED SAILOR.ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN BEFORE YOU SPEAK.LEARN HOW TO SPEAK GERMAN AND USE THE CORRECT SPELLING.

some people looks muslims from a pre-judgement perspective ıslam ıs the religion of peace lıke other religions. to prevent clashes of cıvılızatıons we must provıde allıance of cıvılızations.the pope made mıstake by hıs remarks.he must be objective.his support to Turkey for EU membership was good because EU is not a christian club.

I have to say that we shouldn't indulge ourselves in the inner details of each religion, until we make sure we understand the origin and the message of that religion. The main issues I see with christians today is that they do not understand how Jesus's teaching have been transformed by the church into what's known today as chirtianity. The first thing that struck me was the fact that the bible as we see it today was first "published" 261 years after Jesus. There were tens of thousands of manuscripts written by thousands of authors. The "ownership" of these manuscripts went to the church. Then the hardwork of sifting through the widely contradicting manuscripts started. The "pick and chose" process and the "baking" of the new religion took tens of years. The process ended with a conference that "democratically elected Jesus" as a divine God! Anything in the old manuscripts that denies that (and there are plenty of those) was thrown away. Even the bible itself as it exists today doesn't have a single verse that says that Jesus claimed to be God or asked people to worship him!!!

I am NOT attacking the bible but I honestly want to know how can any christian kneel in front of a statue of Jesus and pray to him??? Jesus himslef said it many times and explained to his followers that all the powers he got is from the Father (the God in heaven who created the universe and everything in it) and he personally have no power from his ownself. He showed his desciples how to pray to God. Even when he was judged before the crucifiction abd being accused to preach as a son of God (meaning him being a divine God), Jesus confronted them and asked them "don't you know what it means??", "haven't you been called Gods". He knew that the Jews were called Gods, meaning Godly ppeople! In the old testament, God told Moses "I made you god over the pharoe". It meant a prophet, not God!

I want to know why we don't address these serious questions and study the bible "honestly" to see where the church gone wrong and where it misguided these masses of people. I want to feel comfortable with what I am doing and I believe in. I will never follow the herd. It is too serious a matter to bury our heads and seal our hearts and minds just because we were born in a place where truth is distorted.

Sorry if I offended anyone but let's think rather than follow others blindly.

ALETHAI
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I AM JEWISH?YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING.LOOKED UP THE WORD[LANDSMEN]IT SAYS ONE WHO LIVES ON THE LAND,INEXPERIENCED SAILOR.ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN BEFORE YOU SPEAK.LEARN HOW TO SPEAK GERMAN AND USE THE CORRECT SPELLING.

THOR
I WOULD NOT LEAVE ANY CHILD WITH ANY RELIGIOUS PREACHER.HE HAS A PENIS HE WANTS TO USE IT. ESPECIALLY RELIGIOUS ONE THEY LOOK TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE BELIEVERS.A RELIGIOUS PERSON IS A PERSON WITH A WEAK MIND CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND LOOK TOWARD THESE PREADOTORS WHO HIDE BEHIND THE CLOTH,YOU SEE THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PEOPLE. GET SMART THINK FOR YOURSELF.IF YOU THINK I EVER WAS MOLESTED BY ONE THE ANSWER IS NO.I WAS A NON BELIEVER,NEXT A AGNOSTIC,AND WHAT I SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE WORLD I AM NOW 100 PERCENT ATHEIST

" Alethia :

What is your point Steve in NY? My point is that I follow Jesus not a priest. The priest will answer for his own actions before God. As will everyone else.

Alethia"

Steve in NY is trying to make ALL Christians look bad because of the crimes of a Few (and ALL CATHOLIC, not of any other Christian Denomination) priests with altar boys.

Poor Steve has no ill word to speak of the Moslems, EVEN as their savage hordes have been murdering his Israeli Landsmen for five decades now.

WHat a damned fool!

" Alethia :

What is your point Steve in NY? My point is that I follow Jesus not a priest. The priest will answer for his own actions before God. As will everyone else.

Alethia"

Steve in NY is trying to make ALL Christians look bad because of the crimes of a Few (and ALL CATHOLIC, not of any other Christian Denomination) priests with altar boys.

Poor Steve has no ill word to speak of the Moslems, EVEN as their savage hordes have been murdering his Israeli Landsmen for five decades now.

WHat a damned fool!

Unbelievable Typo! I twice wrote "live" instead of the correct "leave" above.

I must be getting old at 123...

steve ny :

alethia
I said would you leave your child alone with a PRIEST? NOT JESUS

Steve:

You should specify a CATHOLIC priest. There were NO incidents of any kind with any Protestant or Orthodox or any other Christian Denominations.

PS Steve-rino: Would you live YOUR Child with ABRAHAM? THE Old Testament Patriarch Abraham?

Why, I would not even live HIS OWN child Isaac with him! He was all ready to SLAUGHTER him to please his imaginary God (who must have been a true "Rear Opening", to request such a mindless sacrifice of an innocent child!)

If it was TODAY, ISaac would be REMOVED