The Pope's Visit to Turkey

vwqi kxhrwi tzgdhsue mpnxav snabzulg mphanclke psvi

vwqi kxhrwi tzgdhsue mpnxav snabzulg mphanclke psvi

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

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David,

Thanks for your post. I read it all the way through. I see you have an interest in eschology (end time prophecy). I have been recently trying to expand my knowledge of this subject as well, and have found the same things you have found to be true. I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts, even though some may call us crazy, I see the truth in them. God told us that He would give us signs for the end times. It's very hard to ignore these signs. First and foremost, the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948. This could very well be what people refer to as the "super-sign". Also, looking at science and technology these days makes you wonder as well. Your right, we have furthered our knowledge in such a way in the past 100 years, that it is hardly comparable to what we as mankind have learned in the past. Now with global warming as a threat to our world, we will see many more natural disasters, just like God said they would. The EU started with 10 nations. Look at the book of Daniel and you find 10 horns representing 10 nations. Can all this be coincidence. I don't think so. This is why I find an urgency more today than any other for the salvation of man. I hope that we could bring those who do not believe to Christ, not for our sake, but for theirs and the glory of God as well. Thanks for your post. I have a lot to learn, and I hope that maybe together we can share our knowledge to further our faith in God and to help those who are in need of spiritual salvation.

God bless you

Shrek3 Far Far Away needs a new king, and unless Shrek can find someone else, he'll be stuck with the figazavar...

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

9 provides that a any amount in excess of that 20% in that year

To All

Muhammad and the Prostitute
Muhammad, The Great Anti Christ?
(TGAC)
A New Beginning?
Table of Contents

Beginning Note: Those who call themselves Christians and Muslims alike distort what the Bible actually says just to meet their needs and beliefs. But the Bible says what it says in truth. Mankind adds things to it. Read the Bible for what it really is, and you will find out things that you never thought were there.
When one translates something. They should realize that the translation all depends on how the sentence was said. But many take every possible meaning that one word might have and translate it to be what they want. It all depends on the tone and way that something is said also. Was it said in anger? Was it said as in a learning way? Was it said as a question? Was it said as a Parable to teach? Look in the book of Proverbs and wonder who is actually speaking here. (Proverbs 8:) Who was this craftsman at Gods side, The first of all creations? There are many other sections in the Old Testament where one can find Christ. But neither Catholics or Muslims will give into what God is really trying to tell us. Mostly because we have been told by other men who claim to be someone, and also claim to have all the answers to not study or even look for the truth on their own. Muslims are taught not to trust the people of the Book (Book meaning Bible). They are told that the People of the Book will lead them astray. And that would be true, if they followed the Church of Rome (Or the Prostitute that sets on the seven Hills. Actually the prostitute represents the City that ruled the world at one time. But the Bible speaks of another power coming from the First power in it’s own likeness).
But anyway, there is a big difference between those who call themselves Christians, and those who at least keep on trying to obey Gods Will.

We fight among each other because we refuse to obey God. We choose rather to do what Satan wants us to do. “Oh” how Lucifer must so delight in our hate for one another. I am only a man. But I will let God teach me what I need to Know. Of course many others say the same things as I do, but never truly try to understand what God is telling them. I am not saying I am totally right on everything. I make mistakes just like you. But I will always keep trying to learn more about the Lord. That is why I always say. Do not believe me for what I say. Prove me right or wrong by studying for yourselves. Pick up the Koran and study it. How will you know what your brothers believe in, unless you read it for yourself. The same goes for my Muslim Brothers. Pick up the Bible and read it for what it really says. Open up a history Book. Study, Study and Study some more. Do not let Satan deceive you any longer. This has been his plan from the beginning. To deceive mankind so as to have him destroy each other because of our own wants and beliefs. Do not believe just mere men (For which we all are). Believe God, and the proven history of the Bible. And as I hope and pray for Muslims in this truth, I also pray and hope for those who are Catholics.

Read these verses from Proverbs in the Old Testament. Who do you think it is speaking here? He says he was the first of all creations. He says he was the craftsman that stood by the side of God. Read for yourself what has been hidden, but was truly not. Only by our own selfishness do we miss what is really written in the Bible.

Proverbs 8: 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

PR 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

PR 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

PR 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

PR 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

PR 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

PR 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

PR 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

PR 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

PR 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind

The above is very interesting is it not. But even as it is. There are those who will make it say what they want it to say. Now, one might say that these verses are only giving an example of the Wisdom that was Gods. But any way you look at it, It still points bank to the wisdom that stood next to God. But if you do not believe that this is speaking of Christ, then here is something a little bit more just to confirm what is written here.
Read Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Very Interesting, Is it Not? A child sometimes understands these things better then we. They understand it better mostly because they do not have the selfishness that we as adults have inside of us. Because of this selfishness of ours, we kill, torture and maim one another, and claim that we are doing it in the name of the Lord and for his sake. Never has anything been spoken so wrongly by Mankind! What hypocrites we are to follow the words of men, instead of God.

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
A New Prophet?
Table of Contents

Muhammad while In Madinah was able to work freely in spreading Islam. The followers of Islam increased day after day. The ever increasing threat by the Makkans did not stop. Some small battles and confrontations occurred with the Makkans . Sometimes the battles were won by the Muslims, and sometimes by the Makkans. Muhammad also engaged in battles with the Persian and Byzantine Empire’s that were jeopardizing his newly formed Occult from the north and the east. But the battles with the Makkans stopped for a while after a treaty was made at Hudaibiyah that was signed by the Muslims and the Makkans who were thought as being unbelievers.
In Madinah, Muhammad succeeded in establishing Islam as a way of life in its supposedly true meaning. He provided Muslims with rules and Regulations to obey as if they were from God himself. His laws and rules govern many with an Iron scepter even till this day

Just before the fall (Or I should say the last fall of Rome the city, and the western Roman Empire) of Rome in the 7th century. (Of Course many say that Rome as a power with its Emperor was defeated in or around 470 AD) A certain man went to Rome to find out more about God. He thought he would be able to learn more about the Lord by talking and studying with the Christian Church (The Catholic Church) in Rome. But the only conclusion he came up with was that the Catholic Church at that time was not following what God had put down for man to obey. He saw them worshiping false idols in the Church buildings. They were praying to Mary, Peter and other saints. So in reality he knew that this was wrong. Except for the fact that he judged all Christianity on what he saw and learned in Rome. So he seemed to think that it was his duty to straiten mankind out on who God really was.
One might be able to say because of this, he started one of the worlds greatest Anti Christ’s Movements ever. He became the worlds greatest anti Christ leader, even to this day. (Could he have been the Great Anti Christ himself? He possibly could of been. But there is still much to study on this matter. Mostly because one could always be wrong on his theory’s). This mans name is Muhammad.
But anyway that one might look at who Muhammad really was and is. He still comes out to be an Anti Christ. He and his followers all deny that Christ is the Son of God. They say that he was only a profit. Basically they are saying that Christ was a minor prophet, and Muhammad was the great prophet that was to come. Are we to hate Muslims because of this? No we are not! They are mislead just like others are mislead by those who say that they are someone, when in reality they are only deceivers who want to rule over other’s. By doing this, they do it in his name. And I don’t mean Christ.

It is strange to me that this has not been spoken of through out the century’s. It seems to just have passed right by the Christian world. Except for the wars that went on during the Crusades. And the wars that went (Read the excerpts on the first page of this book.) on to make the Muslim religion what it is today. Some might think by reading this that the Church of Rome did think that he was the anti Christ (or something like one). Then again why would the Church of Rome think something like that? (When most likely the prostitute that sits on the seven hills spoken of in the Bible might represent the Church in Rome. Or it might even be the second beast. Remember, Rome was built on seven hills. Now Don’t jump up and down and stone me yet. These are just things that one should really study hard on). But that seems not to be the case. The wars were fought for land and rulership, and to force others to believe in what they believed. Of course both sides used God as their Excuse. Both sides thinking that God was on their side.

One would seem to wonder where the “devil” did not stand in those wars. And one might think which side was God really on. Well” you would have to take in the history of the Catholic Church at that time. And if you knew the Bible and studied it like you should. Then you would know that neither side obeyed what Christ left for us to honor the Father with. But even with all this happening, we should remember that there still were those then that knew neither side was right and followed the Lord in sometimes hidden places. There were always those who knew Christ for what he really was, and is. The Son of God, our savior. They knew that it was wrong to worship idols and the such. But because of their rebellion against the Catholic Church and the Muslims, they were often tortured and killed.
Our brothers and sisters of that era had it pretty bad it would seem. But they knew the truth. And as it says. The truth will set you free. Our brothers and sisters died because of their faith in the Lord. Even though they feared the pain of torture and death. They knew that they would live forever with the Lord. They knew that the Lord would save them in this way. By our Brothers and sisters dying in this way, they became an encouragement for others in times to come.

Many today believe that the anti Christ will rise and rule the world in the days to come. Some believe that he might be alive today and is just waiting for the right opportunity to start his rain of terror. I can not say that this will not happen in this way for sure. But by everything that I read and come up with in the Bible seems not to be on the side of those who think that the antichrist will be what they have made him out to be.
Not saying yes. But not saying no to this. There are many things we as Christians can be off on. Just like the Jews thought when Christ came. They thought when the Christ came, he would destroy the Romans and restore the Kingdom at that Time. They read the Scriptures and miss-interpreted them just as many do today. Never be to sure of yourselves of what you think you have found. The Bible also says that the antichrist will be Reveled. It could just Possibly be someone who might of already been here and the religion that he represents. This man could be someone that the Christians and world alike have just passed by without a second thought. Give or take a peace here and there.

Many Christians today get stuck on one idea, or belief, and stick with it till the day they die without exploring the rest of the Bible and the history that goes with it to see if what they believe could in realty be off just a little. “Not saying that they are wrong in there thoughts totally. But possibly being not quit right with the unfolding of the matter. I myself come to no permanent conclusions on many matters in the Bible, for I leave myself open to possibly being wrong on some things, but am convinced on many other matters. The Book of Revelations can be a tricky book for some. Mostly because many are taught by others to believe in what they have come up with in their own findings, which can be a good thing in some teachings. But can become a disaster if not put down and studied in the manner that God set for us to in the Bibles history. I am still studying and come to no permanent conclusions yet about some things in the Book of Revelations. But I do sway towards the positive in many other matters in what they might mean for us today.
If I hear someone talking about an antichrist that will be in the form of a man and will rule the whole world soon, or in the days to come. And if those who believe this, also preach a thousands years of peace on the earth and then the coming of Christ. Then I move back and take a deep breath because of the fact that the Bible does not really speak of a thousand years of peace. The ones who believe this, get this Idea from Revelations 20:, read this for a better understanding of what the thought might be in believing in a thousands years of peace on the earth. Also read Revelations 7: 1 to 4 and Revelations 14: 1 to 5.
But one can not just read two or three lines in a chapter and come up with the conclusion of a thousand years of peace before our Lords return. It is just not saying that here. You have to read the rest of the chapter, and the Bible to understand and get the big picture of it all. Here is something that tells us why it probably will not happen in this way. Mostly because it is to obvious. (But again, I say that I am still studying these matters also. So I could be wrong) Read in (1 Timothy: 1 to 11. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.)

But don’t stop here, or begin here. Read the rest of it also. The whole thing fits together like a puzzle. “A simple, but complex Puzzle”.
There is a big possibility that the antichrist has already come and set his mark upon the world through a false religion, which is the second largest religion in the world. This religion and many of its followers are the reason that the world leaders of today are looking for new ways to protect themselves. Because of this religion, new security measures are being sought through out the world. One of the security measures being looked at today is an ID card that possess sophisticated biometric data, Called the Smart ID Card. This card would have a Chip in it with all your vital information. The chip could be monitored from satellites, and your location could be known at anytime. The Smart ID card is a thought still in process for our Government. But others are considering it soon.
The Card seems like a good idea because of all that is happening in the world today. So many will most likely agree to something this simple. “But then again” why not! It would make life much more secure and convenient, wouldn’t it? Or would it. The Smart ID Card could be just a stepping stone to the next level of a so called National Security plan.
There is already a company out there with a Chip called the VeriChip. The VeriChip is a implantable chip. It is the size of a rice grain. And its so-called purpose is to make your life more secure. “Why” you could implant one of these chips in your child just in case someone was to kidnap her or him, and the police could trace them down with the use of Satellites and save your child. You could pay a monthly fee and know exactly where your child is at all times by going to your computer and clicking on a program that will let you see on a map (or other) where your child is located. Sounds great, does it not! Of course there is much more that this chip can do. And I mean much more. All this seems to sound good, doesn’t it. But can you imagine what the future might look like with this type of control over you?
Many of you out there that are Christians think that everything already has taken place in what it says in the book of Revelations. But that is not quit true. The world is still here, and Jesus never came back yet. I would suggest to wake up folks. Our generation might not live to see this happen (I tend to lean towards that we just might see it taking place) but our children might. And because of that possibility, we should be strengthening each other and our children in the Lords words.
You might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about this happening because the Lord is our protector. And that is very true. But will you be able to stand up under persecution. With what’s going on in the world today with homosexuality and other major sins of imorality taking place. With the Gay community winning, what they call civil rights (But what in reality is sinful immoral acts of sexual imorality) comes another thought of major concern for the Christian.
After they get what they want in the category of Marriage. There will be no stopping them in what ever they demand to be moral. Christians will be their next target after they have won there civil rights. We as Christians will look like an evil and corrupt organization that is no better then the K.K.K. We will be made to look like the troublemakers in this society. And guess what will happen then. “People” If you do not think this can happen in this country or in this world. Then you had better burst those safe Bubbles of yours. I am not saying this is going to happen now, or will happen in the way I just explained it. But this is for sure, Christ is not going to come back to save us in destroy the world because the people in the world are being good little boys and girls. He is going to come back because the people of this world will not put up with sound doctrine any longer. When the world is just too sinful for Him to put up with any longer is when to expect his coming.
And yes, you are right. No one knows the day and hour of our Lords return. But there are signs that tell us that it just might be close at hand. ( Matthew 24: 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.) Read all of Matthew chapter 24 to get the whole meaning of what is said here. There is much more being said here then Jerusalem falling to the Romans. It goes way beyond Jerusalem the City.

Again you might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about that day. And again I say you are right, but only in a since. You might not be worrying about that day for your own safety. But what about your neighbors and your coworkers and everyone else in the world that has not accepted our Lord yet. What will happen to them? I think we all know very well what their future holds for them. So by knowing this, we should be more powerful in our work for the Lord to bring as many as we can into His forgiveness.
Yes that’s right, you or I might not have to worry about the Lords coming if we are keeping with his ways. But many others do. So what should we be doing as Christians? We should be studying his word so as to be ready to make use of every opportunity that rises up before us.

There is much more that can be discussed on this matter. But to get back to the main idea that I started from in this section of the book. And that is, to not be to sure of what you have been taught to believe by others in your life, unless you have truly spent many hours and years into the study of these matters which were spoken of in this chapter. We should always be open (as long as it is not trampling on the words that God set down in the Bible for us) for more understanding.
There seems to be an opening of the word today. An increase in the knowledge of the Bible. Within the last five years, if not only three or four, there seems to be a better understanding of what is really being said in the Lords Book. I always wonder just what Daniel was really writing about when he spoke of the last days, where people would go from here and they’re to increase Knowledge. Read In the NIV Version (Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.")

Now read what the King James version says. (Danial 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.)

By reading both you get a better understanding of what is being said here. It says that knowledge shall be increased. We can look at that in two ways. One is, that I do not remember Nero, Herod, King James or anyone else in times past driving around in big limousines and playing with their computers and sending e-mail to there buddies. In other words. We have seen in the last hundred years, an enormous Increase in Knowledge and science and technology. In just the last 20 to 25 years we have doubled that knowledge in the Science and technology areas. But besides all that, there seems to be a increase in the knowledge of the Lords words. The bible seems to have been opened up father for those who seek more knowledge of what God has planed for his people. Maybe this is just my imagination, and no one else sees this happening. Remember I could be wrong. I am just another Christian trying to come closer to the knowledge that God might want me to have. But there seems to be something happening today (Or something coming) that intrigues me to seek more and more of what The Lord put down in his book and the history that goes along with it.

After all these thoughts we have just discussed, we come back to who was, or is the antichrist anyway? Was it, or is it Mohammed? Or is the antichrist still to come? Christ said the antichrist was already with them two thousand years ago. He said the antichrist is anyone who denies that He is the Son of God. That might have been just the beginning of what was, or is to come. There definitely does seem to be something about a number system where no one, rich or poor can buy, sale or trade without this number. But that number does not necessarily have to be one number as 666. It could be that as the bible says. That 666 is mans number. Some think that this might have something to do with man being created on the sixth day. others tend to lean in this direction and add to it that we are now in our six thousandth year of creation after the flood, or before the flood. Is any of this right or wrong? I am not sure about all that. But it is something to maybe ponder upon. None of us are all that perfect and all knowledgeable. We can be wrong in our thinking. That is why the Lord said seek and ye shall find.( Matthew: 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.)

Remember again, that there is a difference of those who call themselves Christians, and of those who at least keep on trying to do better in the Lord. God is not created in our image. We are created in his. Do we think that He can not keep a little book together in the way that he wanted it to be. He created the whole universe. Everything in the Bible is to be obeyed. If we change anything in it to suite our own wants and needs. Then we deserve what is promised to those who disobey

To All

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
Muhammad, The Great Anti Christ?
(TGAC)
A New Beginning?
Table of Contents

Beginning Note: Those who call themselves Christians and Muslims alike distort what the Bible actually says just to meet their needs and beliefs. But the Bible says what it says in truth. Mankind adds things to it. Read the Bible for what it really is, and you will find out things that you never thought were there.
When one translates something. They should realize that the translation all depends on how the sentence was said. But many take every possible meaning that one word might have and translate it to be what they want. It all depends on the tone and way that something is said also. Was it said in anger? Was it said as in a learning way? Was it said as a question? Was it said as a Parable to teach? Look in the book of Proverbs and wonder who is actually speaking here. (Proverbs 8:) Who was this craftsman at Gods side, The first of all creations? There are many other sections in the Old Testament where one can find Christ. But neither Catholics or Muslims will give into what God is really trying to tell us. Mostly because we have been told by other men who claim to be someone, and also claim to have all the answers to not study or even look for the truth on their own. Muslims are taught not to trust the people of the Book (Book meaning Bible). They are told that the People of the Book will lead them astray. And that would be true, if they followed the Church of Rome (Or the Prostitute that sets on the seven Hills. Actually the prostitute represents the City that ruled the world at one time. But the Bible speaks of another power coming from the First power in it’s own likeness).
But anyway, there is a big difference between those who call themselves Christians, and those who at least keep on trying to obey Gods Will.

We fight among each other because we refuse to obey God. We choose rather to do what Satan wants us to do. “Oh” how Lucifer must so delight in our hate for one another. I am only a man. But I will let God teach me what I need to Know. Of course many others say the same things as I do, but never truly try to understand what God is telling them. I am not saying I am totally right on everything. I make mistakes just like you. But I will always keep trying to learn more about the Lord. That is why I always say. Do not believe me for what I say. Prove me right or wrong by studying for yourselves. Pick up the Koran and study it. How will you know what your brothers believe in, unless you read it for yourself. The same goes for my Muslim Brothers. Pick up the Bible and read it for what it really says. Open up a history Book. Study, Study and Study some more. Do not let Satan deceive you any longer. This has been his plan from the beginning. To deceive mankind so as to have him destroy each other because of our own wants and beliefs. Do not believe just mere men (For which we all are). Believe God, and the proven history of the Bible. And as I hope and pray for Muslims in this truth, I also pray and hope for those who are Catholics.

Read these verses from Proverbs in the Old Testament. Who do you think it is speaking here? He says he was the first of all creations. He says he was the craftsman that stood by the side of God. Read for yourself what has been hidden, but was truly not. Only by our own selfishness do we miss what is really written in the Bible.

Proverbs 8: 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

PR 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

PR 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

PR 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

PR 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

PR 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

PR 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

PR 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

PR 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

PR 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind

The above is very interesting is it not. But even as it is. There are those who will make it say what they want it to say. Now, one might say that these verses are only giving an example of the Wisdom that was Gods. But any way you look at it, It still points bank to the wisdom that stood next to God. But if you do not believe that this is speaking of Christ, then here is something a little bit more just to confirm what is written here.
Read Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Very Interesting, Is it Not? A child sometimes understands these things better then we. They understand it better mostly because they do not have the selfishness that we as adults have inside of us. Because of this selfishness of ours, we kill, torture and maim one another, and claim that we are doing it in the name of the Lord and for his sake. Never has anything been spoken so wrongly by Mankind! What hypocrites we are to follow the words of men, instead of God.

“Muhammad and the Prostitute”
A New Prophet?
Table of Contents

Muhammad while In Madinah was able to work freely in spreading Islam. The followers of Islam increased day after day. The ever increasing threat by the Makkans did not stop. Some small battles and confrontations occurred with the Makkans . Sometimes the battles were won by the Muslims, and sometimes by the Makkans. Muhammad also engaged in battles with the Persian and Byzantine Empire’s that were jeopardizing his newly formed Occult from the north and the east. But the battles with the Makkans stopped for a while after a treaty was made at Hudaibiyah that was signed by the Muslims and the Makkans who were thought as being unbelievers.
In Madinah, Muhammad succeeded in establishing Islam as a way of life in its supposedly true meaning. He provided Muslims with rules and Regulations to obey as if they were from God himself. His laws and rules govern many with an Iron scepter even till this day

Just before the fall (Or I should say the last fall of Rome the city, and the western Roman Empire) of Rome in the 7th century. (Of Course many say that Rome as a power with its Emperor was defeated in or around 470 AD) A certain man went to Rome to find out more about God. He thought he would be able to learn more about the Lord by talking and studying with the Christian Church (The Catholic Church) in Rome. But the only conclusion he came up with was that the Catholic Church at that time was not following what God had put down for man to obey. He saw them worshiping false idols in the Church buildings. They were praying to Mary, Peter and other saints. So in reality he knew that this was wrong. Except for the fact that he judged all Christianity on what he saw and learned in Rome. So he seemed to think that it was his duty to straiten mankind out on who God really was.
One might be able to say because of this, he started one of the worlds greatest Anti Christ’s Movements ever. He became the worlds greatest anti Christ leader, even to this day. (Could he have been the Great Anti Christ himself? He possibly could of been. But there is still much to study on this matter. Mostly because one could always be wrong on his theory’s). This mans name is Muhammad.
But anyway that one might look at who Muhammad really was and is. He still comes out to be an Anti Christ. He and his followers all deny that Christ is the Son of God. They say that he was only a profit. Basically they are saying that Christ was a minor prophet, and Muhammad was the great prophet that was to come. Are we to hate Muslims because of this? No we are not! They are mislead just like others are mislead by those who say that they are someone, when in reality they are only deceivers who want to rule over other’s. By doing this, they do it in his name. And I don’t mean Christ.

It is strange to me that this has not been spoken of through out the century’s. It seems to just have passed right by the Christian world. Except for the wars that went on during the Crusades. And the wars that went (Read the excerpts on the first page of this book.) on to make the Muslim religion what it is today. Some might think by reading this that the Church of Rome did think that he was the anti Christ (or something like one). Then again why would the Church of Rome think something like that? (When most likely the prostitute that sits on the seven hills spoken of in the Bible might represent the Church in Rome. Or it might even be the second beast. Remember, Rome was built on seven hills. Now Don’t jump up and down and stone me yet. These are just things that one should really study hard on). But that seems not to be the case. The wars were fought for land and rulership, and to force others to believe in what they believed. Of course both sides used God as their Excuse. Both sides thinking that God was on their side.

One would seem to wonder where the “devil” did not stand in those wars. And one might think which side was God really on. Well” you would have to take in the history of the Catholic Church at that time. And if you knew the Bible and studied it like you should. Then you would know that neither side obeyed what Christ left for us to honor the Father with. But even with all this happening, we should remember that there still were those then that knew neither side was right and followed the Lord in sometimes hidden places. There were always those who knew Christ for what he really was, and is. The Son of God, our savior. They knew that it was wrong to worship idols and the such. But because of their rebellion against the Catholic Church and the Muslims, they were often tortured and killed.
Our brothers and sisters of that era had it pretty bad it would seem. But they knew the truth. And as it says. The truth will set you free. Our brothers and sisters died because of their faith in the Lord. Even though they feared the pain of torture and death. They knew that they would live forever with the Lord. They knew that the Lord would save them in this way. By our Brothers and sisters dying in this way, they became an encouragement for others in times to come.

Many today believe that the anti Christ will rise and rule the world in the days to come. Some believe that he might be alive today and is just waiting for the right opportunity to start his rain of terror. I can not say that this will not happen in this way for sure. But by everything that I read and come up with in the Bible seems not to be on the side of those who think that the antichrist will be what they have made him out to be.
Not saying yes. But not saying no to this. There are many things we as Christians can be off on. Just like the Jews thought when Christ came. They thought when the Christ came, he would destroy the Romans and restore the Kingdom at that Time. They read the Scriptures and miss-interpreted them just as many do today. Never be to sure of yourselves of what you think you have found. The Bible also says that the antichrist will be Reveled. It could just Possibly be someone who might of already been here and the religion that he represents. This man could be someone that the Christians and world alike have just passed by without a second thought. Give or take a peace here and there.

Many Christians today get stuck on one idea, or belief, and stick with it till the day they die without exploring the rest of the Bible and the history that goes with it to see if what they believe could in realty be off just a little. “Not saying that they are wrong in there thoughts totally. But possibly being not quit right with the unfolding of the matter. I myself come to no permanent conclusions on many matters in the Bible, for I leave myself open to possibly being wrong on some things, but am convinced on many other matters. The Book of Revelations can be a tricky book for some. Mostly because many are taught by others to believe in what they have come up with in their own findings, which can be a good thing in some teachings. But can become a disaster if not put down and studied in the manner that God set for us to in the Bibles history. I am still studying and come to no permanent conclusions yet about some things in the Book of Revelations. But I do sway towards the positive in many other matters in what they might mean for us today.
If I hear someone talking about an antichrist that will be in the form of a man and will rule the whole world soon, or in the days to come. And if those who believe this, also preach a thousands years of peace on the earth and then the coming of Christ. Then I move back and take a deep breath because of the fact that the Bible does not really speak of a thousand years of peace. The ones who believe this, get this Idea from Revelations 20:, read this for a better understanding of what the thought might be in believing in a thousands years of peace on the earth. Also read Revelations 7: 1 to 4 and Revelations 14: 1 to 5.
But one can not just read two or three lines in a chapter and come up with the conclusion of a thousand years of peace before our Lords return. It is just not saying that here. You have to read the rest of the chapter, and the Bible to understand and get the big picture of it all. Here is something that tells us why it probably will not happen in this way. Mostly because it is to obvious. (But again, I say that I am still studying these matters also. So I could be wrong) Read in (1 Timothy: 1 to 11. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.)

But don’t stop here, or begin here. Read the rest of it also. The whole thing fits together like a puzzle. “A simple, but complex Puzzle”.
There is a big possibility that the antichrist has already come and set his mark upon the world through a false religion, which is the second largest religion in the world. This religion and many of its followers are the reason that the world leaders of today are looking for new ways to protect themselves. Because of this religion, new security measures are being sought through out the world. One of the security measures being looked at today is an ID card that possess sophisticated biometric data, Called the Smart ID Card. This card would have a Chip in it with all your vital information. The chip could be monitored from satellites, and your location could be known at anytime. The Smart ID card is a thought still in process for our Government. But others are considering it soon.
The Card seems like a good idea because of all that is happening in the world today. So many will most likely agree to something this simple. “But then again” why not! It would make life much more secure and convenient, wouldn’t it? Or would it. The Smart ID Card could be just a stepping stone to the next level of a so called National Security plan.
There is already a company out there with a Chip called the VeriChip. The VeriChip is a implantable chip. It is the size of a rice grain. And its so-called purpose is to make your life more secure. “Why” you could implant one of these chips in your child just in case someone was to kidnap her or him, and the police could trace them down with the use of Satellites and save your child. You could pay a monthly fee and know exactly where your child is at all times by going to your computer and clicking on a program that will let you see on a map (or other) where your child is located. Sounds great, does it not! Of course there is much more that this chip can do. And I mean much more. All this seems to sound good, doesn’t it. But can you imagine what the future might look like with this type of control over you?
Many of you out there that are Christians think that everything already has taken place in what it says in the book of Revelations. But that is not quit true. The world is still here, and Jesus never came back yet. I would suggest to wake up folks. Our generation might not live to see this happen (I tend to lean towards that we just might see it taking place) but our children might. And because of that possibility, we should be strengthening each other and our children in the Lords words.
You might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about this happening because the Lord is our protector. And that is very true. But will you be able to stand up under persecution. With what’s going on in the world today with homosexuality and other major sins of imorality taking place. With the Gay community winning, what they call civil rights (But what in reality is sinful immoral acts of sexual imorality) comes another thought of major concern for the Christian.
After they get what they want in the category of Marriage. There will be no stopping them in what ever they demand to be moral. Christians will be their next target after they have won there civil rights. We as Christians will look like an evil and corrupt organization that is no better then the K.K.K. We will be made to look like the troublemakers in this society. And guess what will happen then. “People” If you do not think this can happen in this country or in this world. Then you had better burst those safe Bubbles of yours. I am not saying this is going to happen now, or will happen in the way I just explained it. But this is for sure, Christ is not going to come back to save us in destroy the world because the people in the world are being good little boys and girls. He is going to come back because the people of this world will not put up with sound doctrine any longer. When the world is just too sinful for Him to put up with any longer is when to expect his coming.
And yes, you are right. No one knows the day and hour of our Lords return. But there are signs that tell us that it just might be close at hand. ( Matthew 24: 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.) Read all of Matthew chapter 24 to get the whole meaning of what is said here. There is much more being said here then Jerusalem falling to the Romans. It goes way beyond Jerusalem the City.

Again you might think that we as Christians do not have to worry about that day. And again I say you are right, but only in a since. You might not be worrying about that day for your own safety. But what about your neighbors and your coworkers and everyone else in the world that has not accepted our Lord yet. What will happen to them? I think we all know very well what their future holds for them. So by knowing this, we should be more powerful in our work for the Lord to bring as many as we can into His forgiveness.
Yes that’s right, you or I might not have to worry about the Lords coming if we are keeping with his ways. But many others do. So what should we be doing as Christians? We should be studying his word so as to be ready to make use of every opportunity that rises up before us.

There is much more that can be discussed on this matter. But to get back to the main idea that I started from in this section of the book. And that is, to not be to sure of what you have been taught to believe by others in your life, unless you have truly spent many hours and years into the study of these matters which were spoken of in this chapter. We should always be open (as long as it is not trampling on the words that God set down in the Bible for us) for more understanding.
There seems to be an opening of the word today. An increase in the knowledge of the Bible. Within the last five years, if not only three or four, there seems to be a better understanding of what is really being said in the Lords Book. I always wonder just what Daniel was really writing about when he spoke of the last days, where people would go from here and they’re to increase Knowledge. Read In the NIV Version (Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.")

Now read what the King James version says. (Danial 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.)

By reading both you get a better understanding of what is being said here. It says that knowledge shall be increased. We can look at that in two ways. One is, that I do not remember Nero, Herod, King James or anyone else in times past driving around in big limousines and playing with their computers and sending e-mail to there buddies. In other words. We have seen in the last hundred years, an enormous Increase in Knowledge and science and technology. In just the last 20 to 25 years we have doubled that knowledge in the Science and technology areas. But besides all that, there seems to be a increase in the knowledge of the Lords words. The bible seems to have been opened up father for those who seek more knowledge of what God has planed for his people. Maybe this is just my imagination, and no one else sees this happening. Remember I could be wrong. I am just another Christian trying to come closer to the knowledge that God might want me to have. But there seems to be something happening today (Or something coming) that intrigues me to seek more and more of what The Lord put down in his book and the history that goes along with it.

After all these thoughts we have just discussed, we come back to who was, or is the antichrist anyway? Was it, or is it Mohammed? Or is the antichrist still to come? Christ said the antichrist was already with them two thousand years ago. He said the antichrist is anyone who denies that He is the Son of God. That might have been just the beginning of what was, or is to come. There definitely does seem to be something about a number system where no one, rich or poor can buy, sale or trade without this number. But that number does not necessarily have to be one number as 666. It could be that as the bible says. That 666 is mans number. Some think that this might have something to do with man being created on the sixth day. others tend to lean in this direction and add to it that we are now in our six thousandth year of creation after the flood, or before the flood. Is any of this right or wrong? I am not sure about all that. But it is something to maybe ponder upon. None of us are all that perfect and all knowledgeable. We can be wrong in our thinking. That is why the Lord said seek and ye shall find.( Matthew: 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.)

Remember again, that there is a difference of those who call themselves Christians, and of those who at least keep on trying to do better in the Lord. God is not created in our image. We are created in his. Do we think that He can not keep a little book together in the way that he wanted it to be. He created the whole universe. Everything in the Bible is to be obeyed. If we change anything in it to suite our own wants and needs. Then we deserve what is promised to those who disobey

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It's not Benedict's place -- nor is it any of Christendom's place -- to help Islam "deal with its more violent and extreme elements". THAT is our number one problem: our knee-jerk response to "help" other countries solve their problems. For us to insinuate ourselves into the middle of (what we perceive to be) problems in Islam is about as helpful to Muslims as it was when Europeans decided to "help" Native and Africans become "civilized" almost three centuries ago.

Look around us! Poverty, desolation, crime, abuse, neglect. There aren't enough social workers to deal with the everyday stuff we do to each other -- so we now want to what? "Help" Islam deal with violent and extreme elements? Tell you what:

Take care of Fred Phelps showing up at Walter Reed, shouting his blasphemous and inciteful diatribe, then we can talk about "helping" Islam with its extremists.

Stop anti-abortionists from blowing up clinics and murdering doctors, and then we can talk about "helping" Islam with its violence.

Feed our babies, get our children off the streets, and educate our young people -- give them a future -- then, maybe, we'll talk about "helping Muslims take on" the parts of their society they wish they could eradicate.

As Christians, our backyard is littered with the aftermath wrought by violence and extremism, and before Benedict starts trying to lead his sect of Christendom into "helping" people who really don't want our help, he needs to take a page out of Pope John Paul II's book and start working toward healing the rifts between Catholics and Protestant religions.

The Christian house isn't clean enough for our leaders to be going out and dictating what other religions should do when they need to weed out certain "elements". And it won't be clean enough, until we've plucked a few planks out of our own eyes first.

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well the turkish visitors have left and i took them to times square and to see the tree at rockefeller center and on a carriage ride through central park and as they were my guests and are very secular i didnt bother them with my religiosly oriented question because i know it would have made them uncomfortable and their was a language barrier that barred deep discussions- but we took alot of nice pictures and we all had a hoot...peace im not done with my answer by a long shot gaby

jazakhalakhairum rana

i have some people coming in from turkey tomorrow so ill ask their opinions about the papal visit
(other than the streets were closed down)which is all they told me when i asked- people are the same every where peeeace

Verses from the Quran:I believe this verse from the sura(chapter)The Dinner Table refering to Christians was posted before:

5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave with vanity.

The Chapter continues by describing the monks and priests with the following words:

[5.83] And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).
[5.84] And what (reason) have we that we should not believe in Allah and in the truth that has come to us, while we earnestly desire that our Lord should cause us to enter with the good people?
[5.85] Therefore Allah rewarded them on account of what they said, with gardens in which rivers flow to abide in them; and this is the reward of those who do good (to others).

alethia may ALLAH return you safely

Alethia,

Have a good trip! When you come back, maybe you could give me a down to earth answer instead of quoting the "good book" to me.

Alethia,
it seems to me that you did not take into consideration Quran 60:8-9 which I mentioned earlier. Parts of Quran 9 was revealed during a time of war. When muslims and non muslims were at war with each other and muslims were being persecuted against for the sole reason that they were MUSLIM and were being driven out of their homes. Thus God allowed them to defend themselves rather than "turn the other cheek" which frankly wouldnt have worked.
"Verse 5 in surah Tauba was revealed when the pagans had broken the terms of the treaty with them and plotted to fight the Muslims; to counter it, the directive was given: “But when the forbidden months Are past, then fight and slay The pagans wherever you find them/ And seize them, beleaguer them/ And lie in wait for them/ In every stratagem of war.”
Likewise, when the pagans mounted a war on the faithful they were told in verse 14: “Fight them, and God will/ Punish them at your hands,/ Cover them with shame,/ And He will help you/ To overcome them.” In surah Muhammad, verse 4, the instructions were more
specific: “Therefore, when you meet/ The unbelievers at war/ Smite at their necks/ And subdue them/ Thereafter show generosity/ By granting them ransom.” "

(http://www.islamherald.com/asp/interfaith/hinduism/islam_victim_of_distortion.asp)
(http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/tafseer/tauba.htm)

You can't just take a passage out of the Quran without regards as to why it was revealed. Its not telling muslims to randomly kill non believers for the heck of it! come on man gimme a break. If that was the case how do you explain the relationship between muslims and christians in places like Morroco and Spain where Churches and Mosques were placed side by side and people lived with civility. If youve really studied Islam and the Science of the Quran you would know that. I cant help but think that your study involved but a few books about Islam and a shallow reading of the Quran.
The Quran 60.8-9 tells us that if they (Jews, Christians, Non Beleivers) dont war against the Muslims, then be KIND and JUST towards them.

Furthermore to say that the Prophet 'hijacked' Christian and Jewish doctrine is such bollocks. The Prophet was the seal to all of all Prophets. He was simply carrying the message of all faiths which started as monotheistic religions but eventually completely drifted away from the original teachings that there is only One God worthy of worship and to not align partners with him. Even Christians admit that the Bible has been changed and no two Bibles are the same. Furthermore how can people even claim that the Bible is the word of God or of Jesus when Jesus didnt even write it. It was written after his death. Furthermore there are so many things in the Bible which are scientifically untrue. You will never find that in the Quran because the Quran reflects that God is perfect because the Quran is perfect.
Now can you stop picking at the same things and move on?
ANd if Jesus came to die for Me and the Entire world as you said Alethia then why doesnt everyone in the entire world just go to Heaven? Why do we have to be Christian to go to Heaven then? and if we deny Jesus then its pretty pointless that he died for us isnt it? And if Jesus was the son of God, how can he be God as well? And if he was God and the Son of God (which i cant bring myself to understand) then how can he 'die' for us? i mean how can God die? and just because Jesus was a virgin doesnt mean he was God or the son of God for Gods sake! Jesus never claimed he was the Son of God. People only started saying that after he died.

Oh and I dont know why Christians arent allowed to preach to people in Muslim countries. I have no clue, maybe your better off asking those Muslim countries.

"I see the gospel "according to Luke", "according to John", "according to Matthew", .. etc. I DON'T SEE A GOSPEL "ACCORDING TO JESUS"! The "Gospel according to Jesus" can only be found in some chapters and verses in the Quran." - here here to that!

Dear Gaby,

Thanks for the question. Eternal life is not just duration of life after a believer dies but it is life in the here and now. Jesus changed my life 19 years ago when I studied the Bible and came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Since that day my life was made new.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Now I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I speak to Him is prayer and He speaks back to me through the Bible and through the way He leads my life.

Another aspect of life now in Christ is with fellow believers. We get together and have fun together and learn more about God.

I will be going out of town for a while so I will not be making any posts while I am gone. If I do not catch up with you all again I want Victoria, Gaby, and Thor to know that it has been a pleasure meeting you. God Bless You!

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him" (1 John 4:9).

Verses of the day, from the Quran, Chapter 6:

110. Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

111. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".

112. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the b est Sustainer (of our needs)."

115. God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

116. And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wo uldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

119. God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment o f all desires).

120. To God doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

================================================

Such was the spirit in the missing Gospel of Jesus! Peace be upon Jesus and his mother Mary...

GABY what an excellent penetrating question---
when i was maybe 11-12ish i had a book of comics by this beatnik artist jim crane- i google him and cant find him- and there was this guy trying to make deals with god like if iworship you will you make me rich or something like that and at the end he said :o i must worship you becasue you are god? what kind of deal isthat? but that says it for me- ive thought al ong time about motives intentions and to worship god because youre going to get rewarded seems like the lowestr of weasel self serving maneuvers to me-
would we be good- kind- considerate of other humans if we werent rewarded/punished for our actions?
what if we had absolute freedom to live consequence free?
(like the 70s hee hee) just kidding i liked in austin powers when he said about living in the 60s without any consequence of sexual encounters- never mind i digress as always-

would we live with some code of honor some standard we hold ourselves too?
truly?
only judging ourselves?
i know humanists and atheists claim this and good for them-

i cant answer this right now because im cleaning and resealing the grout in my kitchen floor- but ill get back to you for sure-
do you believe this is my short answer?
peace

actually thor what youre suggesting is living life with a heightened sense of awareness of your own mortaltity- you assume that because someone is not trying to control that knowledge that they are not living consciously.

what if we packed that consciousness into our mentality right now? what if we tried to focus that sense of urgency and limited time into our everyday living- what if we tried to live every moment i the present instead of thinking about the future or obsessing over the past-dwelling in past hurts or angers or regrets-what if we tried to bring it out from insides ourselves instead of an outwardly imposed catalyst- do you know how many small and large and beautiful things happen when we relinquish control and admit we are really suscepible to the waves of fate?
would you concede that this is also a very valid mentality?

ithink you and gaby are having the same motives of living in the present but just perceive it's accomplishment differently.
what do you think?
did i misunderstand? let me know peace

Alethia and Victoria,

Both of you seem to be ardent students of your religious texts. And I am sure you are storng believers in your individual faiths.

The question I have is why is religion that important to you? Is it because you see it as a way of life while alive? Or is it beause you want to be rewarded with an afterlife?

TO THOR:

I WROTE:

ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold. "

YOU RESPONDED:

This is no reason. Knowing in no way obstructs your ability to live in the present, in fact it will only ENHANCE it if you Learn you have only a few years left, and then you try your utmost to enjoy them, travel, and generally do all the things you have postponed for later."

Actually, Thor, it is a very valid reason.

You are talking about living for another 5 or 10 years or longer and your ability to plan what you would do with the time you have left.

What if you were told that you will die in the next 10 minutes? How much planning can you do then?

When my time is up, it's up, so be it. But I'd rather not know!

alethia, im a little disappointed- i have had suspicons of your good intentions and have bent over backward to assume the highest motives-

now you reveal that you have had this conversation and are well versed in these accusations, so obviously you have something in mind-

just tell us the answer you want ecveryone to hear!

what was posted here was more of a defense- the only accusation is the implicitly slanderous question.

obviously you have a well stocked website that has dealt lengthily in this topic-
so skip all this foreplay and just give us the answer i know you have.

peace peace peace

Alethia wrote:

"Just what I thought, you dodged the questions like every other Muslim friend on this thread. You make the same accusations I have been listening to for years by my Muslim friends yet never with any proof. All you are doing is setting up straw men. I pray that you will see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that you can experience His love and forgiveness."

After ALL these questions that I asked you and in which I implied "how weak" your position is, you say I dodged the question? Amazing!

You say, "Gospel of Jesus Christ"

I see the gospel "according to Luke", "according to John", "according to Matthew", .. etc. I DON'T SEE A GOSPEL "ACCORDING TO JESUS"! The "Gospel according to Jesus" can only be found in some chapters and verses in the Quran.

Shalamu Alaikum (As Jesus would "say it")!

Dear Friend,

Just what I thought, you dodged the questions like every other Muslim friend on this thread. You make the same accusations I have been listening to for years by my Muslim friends yet never with any proof. All you are doing is setting up straw men. I pray that you will see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that you can experience His love and forgiveness.

Love in Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Alethia wrote:

"I have been waiting for weeks for a Muslim to answer the following questions. Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world?"

Do you want to have a license to take people away from the light of knowledge in Islam into the darkness and confusion of christianity? In the west, Islam is propagating very fast, even in the midst of this angry attacks on Islam. Why don't you start where you are and try to convert some?

Have you ever been to any of these countries that you want to go to and preach? Do you know that most arabs actually know a lot more about the bible than most christians? Do you know that the arabs are not moved at all when someone reads some bible verses to them? That's because they got used to the high standrads of the Quranic recitation. I am not trying to be mean here. Believe me I am telling you the truth. Do you know that many christians in the middle east are hiding their believe in Islam and have actually converted but afraid to show it because of the pressure from the churches there? Perhaps you can try and convert these people back first.

Do you know that most of the christians who convert to Islam in the middle east are either young and outspoken or too old and afraid to meet their Lord before making the announcement? Do you know that christians in the middle east are "instructed" to not listen to the Quran when recited? Do you know that christians in the middle east are "instructed" not to discuss or engage in any religious debate with muslims?

Imagine yourself standing in front of a muslim, and he asks you, from which christian denomination are you? Which version of the bible do you use? The moment you answer these questions (and you have to), you have discredited yourself. It is self destructive to be grilled in front of a youngster who asks basic questions that you can't answer. Have you ever listned a muslim preacher? Do you know how balanced and logical these speeches are? I sure listned to a lot of christian preachers and I know the big gap in the message between the two. What Islam give muslims is freedom of belief with no restrictions on reading other scriptures and compare notes. That's why muslims have such strong faith. What will you do when every wall of confusion you build, they bring it down in front of your eyes (much like what I did with you)? Muslims use the Quran as the "quality control" scripture over others. What will you do when a muslim tells you that you can't trust the bible as it is today because out of the 24,000 available bible manuscripts, no two are identical? I imagine a young kid running toward you and asks: Uncle, how do you know if the true message is in the bible that use and is not in the other (24,000 - 1) ones out there.

Did you ever think that may be, just may be, it is the church that doesn't want you to go there? Hmmmm! You are giving me some ideas now! Perhaps muslims are the ones who should start preaching Islam at a corner near to you! Now that was fun!

Peace on you (as Jesus himself said in the bible! Did you know that one?)

come on alethia- why dont you ask abul kasem? the darling of faithfreedom.org?

hes an apostate but is still alive and kicking enough to pander to islamophobes. daniel pipes? hes written reams of hateful yes i said it- hateful orientalist anti-islam books-

look- if youre hetting your information from people who loudly proclaim their hatred for islam- how can you expect it to be a respected opinion?

if you really want to know the answer to this question- ive offered you websites- and now this lady has offered you another one sunnipath.com

we need to move on from this subject-

alethia- show us something positive about your faith-

do you have any interesting stories that would uplift us?

i know you have more in you than this tired question which you keep asking ive seen many people answer you

come on be positive

faithfreedom.org? tellchildrenthetruth which seems a thinly veiled jewish anti muslim site?

im certainly getting an education...

I have read the Quran many times and never went upon the word "spread by the sword" but what i read was .." And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers? *99
It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense. *100
Yunus : Jonah 10 : 99-100 (The Noble Qur'an)
and if we have to see why did mouhamad fought the jews in the madena , we should read the histor very good and see that there was a treaty between the jews and the muslims and the jews broke the treaty ..if we can read the deatails mabe we could come with a clear idea about what realy happened.

this is the truth and perhaps i set myself up to criticism for it but- i became muslim 2 years before 911 through prayer and study- im a white american type and i used to always volunteer that i became muslim without marrying one- and i met an african american fellow in chicago and when i told him that he told me he didnt become muslim in prison and we laughed and we laughed---anyway- i was so clueless that - you know that white cotton cloth you often see people wearing in the eastern world? well its called MUSLIN-- AND I SWEAR I THOUGHT THAT the people who wore that cloth were called MUSLINS AFTER THEIR CLOTHES!! and ive read alot of rumi and sufi stuff and all sorts of stuff about islam and i didnt quite make the connection- admittedly Alot of stuff i read was really dated like 1001 nights translated by richard burton but still i know well what you speak of...

Dear Sidrah,

You are very careful with your selection of verses. One thing that I have already discussed on this thread is the doctrine of abrogation. Qur'an 9 cancels all the peaceful verses towards Christians and Jews.

Al-Shawkani
Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

I have been waiting for weeks for a Muslim to answer the following questions. Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations? The truth is Muhammad high jacked some doctrine from Christianity and Judaism when He came along six-hundred years after Christ. He then made up his own religion. When Jews and Christians rejected his message because it was heresy he became violent. What we see today in the Muslim world is his followers following his example.

I do not point these things out because I hate I point them out, out of love for the true and living God and out of love for my fellow humans. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God. Even Muhammad knew He was born of a virgin. Why was He born of a virgin? It is because He is God. Jesus is God incarnate and He came to die for you Sidrah and the entire world.

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

PS: I studied Islam before 9/11. 9/11 just reinforced what I already knew.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

"Slowly the West is giving up it's freedoms, to eventual enslavement to Islam."

its funny how people only make silly comments like this after 9/11. Before that no one even know what Islam was and all of a sudden everyone is an expert on the religion.

that was from www.sunnipath.com

i find it quite amusing that no on seems to pick up on this verse:
"Allah does not forbid you from being kind and just towards those who did not make war on you because of your deen or drive you from your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are just." - 60.8-9

but perhaps that is because it doesn't serve their agenda. tsk tsk

Ok so this is for those people who continuously pick out a few verses from the Quran to show that it is a religion of violence:

"These are common stereotypes about Islam. People who don't understand the religion like to toss around the accusation that the Qur'an teaches violence and anti-semitism. Unfortunately, a lot of people who buy into these misconceptions have distinctly Islamophobic agendas that preclude them from having any positive views of Islam.

Islam is a fourteen-hundred years old way of life. One simply can't take the scripture of Islam, which is the Qur'an (also spelled Koran), and make sweeping generalizations about the religion, particularly when one lacks the qualifications to interpret the Qur'an.

The Qur'an makes reference to different groups of non-Muslims. First, the Qur'an recognizes the natural diversity of humanity, "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Qu'ran, 49:13)

There is also the recognition that human beings are religiously and ethnically diverse, "For, had God so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community; however, He lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides aright him that wills [to be guided]; and you will surely be called to account for all that you ever did!" (Qur'an, 16:93)

What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."

The Qur'an speaks of "kuffar," or those who disbelieve, or cover up the truth, or deny the truth of God and His messengers. However, it is incorrect to translate "kafir" as infidel. The Qur'an also does not label all non-Muslims as kuffar, or unbelievers.

The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

The Qur'an is the culmination of the Abrahamic tradition. Thus, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the completion of God's message to humanity. Muslims also believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original form since its revelation over 1400 years ago. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has not been altered by human hands. For Muslims, this is a miracle and proof of God's concern for humanity.

Let's look at one of the most misunderstood passages of the Qur'an:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out..."

Most people usually only quote the first part.

Here's the entire passage:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Qur'an, 2:190-192)

Let's look at the interpretation of the above verses. First, examine the historical context. These verses were revealed at a time when Islam was under siege, when the small Muslim community was fighting for its very existence against powerful polytheists. The biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah bless him and give him peace, makes it very clear that the Prophet preached peacefully for the first 13 years of his mission. He left Mecca for Medina to make a new start. Even when the polytheists in Mecca were persecuting Muslims and looting their houses, the Prophet hesitated to fight. He only took up arms when God gave him permission:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them." (Qur'an, 22:39)

The first battles the Muslims waged were in self-defense. They were disciplined and adhered to strict codes of conduct. Noncombatants, including women and children were not targeted. Furthermore, the Muslims avoided destroying property, livestock, and trees.

Even as Islam spread beyond the borders of Arabia into the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires (Syria and Persia), non-Muslims were accorded certain rights. If they accepted the authority of the new Islamic government, then treaties were concluded and the non-Muslims paid a special tax, called a jizya. The options were not convert, die, or pay the tax. Instead, non-Muslims were allowed to practice their own religions and maintain their own institutions. In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax. This tax exempted them from military service and gave them special status under the Islamic system. Many non-Muslims actually welcomed Muslim rule, knowing that they had certain rights under the new system. In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax. This tribute system was very compatible with the political economy of the premodern world.

Islam could not have had the huge appeal it did if Muslims' first response was to kill "infidels." Within one hundred years of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread from Spain in the West to China in the East. Islam's initial spread was through political-military means. However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes. Muslims ruled places like the Indian subcontinent for centuries and did not forcibly convert the population. In fact, India remained majority Hindu under Muslim rule.

The Ottomans created a multi-confessional, multi-ethnic millet system where Muslims, Christian, and Jews lived together in peace. In fact, the Ottomans' elite military corp, the Janissaries, were predominantly Christian.

Islam's tolerance, and indeed welcoming, of other religions flourished in places like Spain, where Muslims cultivated an atmosphere of learning, scholarship, and art. Christians flocked to study in the universities of Muslim Spain.

Consider this:

In the Catholic Reconquista of Muslim Spain, Muslim and Spanish Jews were generally ordered to convert to Christianity, be expelled, or die.

When the Spanish Jews fled the Catholics, where did they go? They sought refuge with the Ottoman Muslims in Istanbul. This was in the 15th century. To this day, there is a Jewish quarter in Istanbul where the people still speak Spanish, descendants of the Spanish Jews who found a home with the Muslims!

Let's go back to the Qur'an:

The Qur'an says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an, 2:62)

And, the Qur'an also states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an, 2:256)

Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Today, as yesterday, and in centuries past, Islam speaks to people's hearts with the beautiful message that There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger.

This is a message that has inspired countless believers from all walks of life, a religion followed by over 1.5 billion human beings the world over, including my own family, who were raised as Christians, but discovered the beauty of Islam over three decades ago."

i thought gabys post was one continuous post
i didnt know you made it

i dont want to know because im afraid it would make me act like a hypocrite and start praying more or do better works as i approached my death day

thats why whenever i say ill do something tomorrow i say "insha'alla" if god wills it-

there is a saying that says, work as if you will live forever, and pray as if you will die tomorrow.

going to the doctor and getting an analysis has no real bearing on my immortal soul- thats the difference

ok?

"ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold. "

This is no reason. Knowing in no way obstructs your ability to live in the present, in fact it will only ENHANCE it if you Learn you have only a few years left, and then you try your utmost to enjoy them, travel, and generally do all the things you have postponed for later.

Despite all this logical stuff, you are in the 98 % or so MAJORITY. Of course that does not make it right.

Only two (me and my old friend) wanted to know.

victoria

victoria :

"im surprised, id assumed i was in the 98%.
98% of people would want to know the time of their death? thats amazing..."

You did not read carefully. I NEVER said which was the 98% and which the 2%, so that I did not prejudice the voting.

It all fits very well with a forum of "faithful" who put a low premium on Science and Knowledge

It also fits well with a society that, even in the "brainiest" University Campuses, 40% or so of all people living there read HOROSCOPES.

And that's funny... they enjoy reading that NONSENSE predicting what their future will bring, but they refise to know (assuming it was available, which it is not) when they'd die so they can change their life to their benefit!

I am convinced that still most people do not get it, so I'll do an example.

In my case, if I do not learn when I'll die, I will assume that I will live more or less as much as my relatives did, and add a few years for science's progress and my own optimism, so I'd plan assuming I'll live another 40-50 years from now. And I will not throw my hard-earned retirement millions to the wind, since I would expect to need them over a long time, perhaps need $ for long term care which is very expensive, etc.

BUT if I knew for a fact that I had only anopther FIVE or TEN years to live, I would USE that VALUABLE info to do much better than otherwise,

since I can then PLAN my travels, work projects, spending etc to fit the NEW Reality.

IF the 98% were consistent, then they also would NOT want to know what is going on every time they go to the doctor for a check up! What is the diff?

im surprised, id assumed i was in the 98%.
98% of people would want to know the time of their death? thats amazing...

TO A question for all in the FOrum, at the end of this post :

" frequently ask people a question and I am quite surprised by their answers.

I ask them to suppose that somebody (God or whoever) would tell them when they would die. No gory details, just the date and the time, such as Nov 21, 2076, 3 PM. Would they LIKE to KNOW or not?

Only I and an old friend (who now is a very wealthy business owner) answered one way, and 98% of the people asked answered the other way.

I am curious what you and all the rest of the forum would choose."

ANSWER: No I would not!!! REASON: I like to live in the present and don't want to know what the future hold.

Dear Friend,

I am simply making an observation of what these texts clearly teach. I am not saying that those observations are the word of God. The point is that Jesus received worship for the disciples and the angels are commanded to worship Him. Jesus existed before He became flesh as was pointed out with the John 17 passage. God became flesh in John 1:1-3, 14). The “Word was God and with God” and the “Word became flesh.” A child would be born who would be called “the Mighty God” and “the Everlasting Father.” You have refused to answer this case by dodging the issue. Until you address these points with a sound refutation we have nothing more to talk about.

In the Grace of Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Dear Sidrah,

Thanks for your response. The acts I see before me in the Muslim world testify to the violence of Islam. Forced conversions are seen in the case of Fox news employees Steve Centanni and Olaf Wig. This is consistent with what is taught in Qur’an 9 the war chapter. Qur’an 9:5 and 9:29-30 highlight this truth clearly. This is also seen lived out by Muhammad himself in the Hadith. If you refute that with reason instead of violence then you have accomplished refuting the Pope. I am thankful to the Arabs for Algebra but Algebra has nothing to do with this matter. By the way, I am not Catholic and am not an apologist for the Catholic Church. I am simply a Christian in the arms of Jesus.

In Jesus the Truth,

Alethia

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

This is for Alethia, who has been seemingly waiting a very long time for some refute the words of Manuel II Paleologus so here it is Alethia;

"To show that Islam sees God as so transcendent that reason is extraneous, Benedict cited an 11th century Muslim sage named Ibn Hazm. To establish the connection between this position and violence, he quoted a 15th century Christian Byzantine Emperor (and head of the Byzantine, or Eastern Church) named Manuel Paleologus. Paleologus criticized Muslims for "spreading (their faith) by the sword," both because "God is not pleased by blood" and because true conversion depended on reason. "Show just what the Muhammad brought that was new," Paleologus said, in a passage quoted by Benedict, "and there you will find things only evil and inhuman." It remains unclear whether Benedict was deliberatley trying to raise the temperature. Many analysts, especially in Rome, think he knew exactly what he was saying and regard the Islamic section of the 35 min. speech as a brave and eloquent warning of Islam's inherent violence and of faithless West's inability to offer moral response. Yet Benedict's argument was slapdash and flawed. His sage, Ibn Hazm turned out to have belonged to a school with no current adherents, and although reason's primacy is debated in Islam, it is very much part of the culture that developed algebra. Paleologus ' forced-conversion accusation misrepresents the sweep of Muslim history, since more often than not, Islam has left religious groups in conquered territory intact, if hobbled. And assuming that a punctilious scholar like Benedict really wanted to engage on Islam and violence, why do it through the idiosyncratic lens of an embattled king in the 1400's who made his name partly for his efforts at drumming up enthusiasm for a new Crusade?" - Time Magazine, November 27, 2006

Thanks for the "goblin" catch!

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)"

Now you quote verses but you put YOUR OWN TEXT to justify anything you say. You are now acting exactly like the hundreds of the "unknown" authors of the bible. Please take note of that.

"Woe to those who write the book by their own hands, then they this is from GOD! Woe to them for what they have written and Woe to them for what they have earned!"

Peace!

What is Woo to you? Are you goblin? Its "Woe"

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)"

Now you quote verses but you put YOUR OWN TEXT to justify anything you say. You are now acting exactly like the hundreds of the "unknown" authors of the bible. Please take note of that.

"Woo to those who write the book by their own hands, then they this is from GOD! Woo to them for what they have written and Woo to them for what they have earned!"

Peace!

10 ten different valuse ascribed to each card

actually i have to agree with the scientist- the physical fact that tomorrow will come is not based on faith that it will ome- but from observation of a phenomenon that so far the earth moves around the sun every day- in islam we say if we are going to do something tomorrow insha'alla- if god wills it-
meaning we know there will be a tomorrow, but maybe we will, maybe we wont be here to see it.

that psalm seems to me to be david talking to god. mixing it up with NT doesnt change its core meaning.

newton was a man of deep faith- and scientists have had inspirations and stepped outside of the bonds of logic that is part of discovery.

i would say faith has been known to limit science-
science hasnt limited faith so far-

an interesting aside on laws of probability-
years ago i read tarot cards (which is as non scientific as you can get)
i did it with the intention of debunking so i became the best of the best at it-

i worked for honeywll bull for a man who was one of the 5 men on the planet working in artificial intelligence and they were trying to teach computers to dream (this was 1986)

so out of the 56 cards- i ascribed numerological and symbological values to them using a variety of categories-(atrological, elemental etc) and with each card came up with about 1 different values that could be applied to each.

then every day using very simple control questions we would do readings and put the information in the computer. we were lookinf for patterns and correlations.

interestingly enough after 2 months of this, the findings were that it was an indeterminate process. being cards and cards always follow the laws of probability- youd assume that there would be a pattern but surpringly this wasnt the case.

i personally dont see any contradictions between science and faith (islam hasnt has this problem) but people can and do limit and try to control.
as amatter of fact i was just watching micheal crichton the author talking about how the british government right now is abusing scientific infromation- and how the scientists there are angry and their findings being twisted and results being misused---

im probably in the 98%- i do not want to know the time and date of my death.

i dont think anyone is questioning that you have faith alethia and we dont demand that you prove the existence of your faith-

i think asking for proof that thought processes exist, reason and logic- is a distraction.
i think the whole asking of an impossible question
is a device to avoid the questions put before you.

you asked for an answer and were given one.
did you mean an answer that would make you happy?
or fit in with your own philosophy?

what exactly was your point that was proven with the answering of question?

besides ive answered at length and in detail every question youve asked of me- so in turning the tables- when will you respond to my many questions?

have you proven my point by not answering?

obviously we are all sitting at computers so we all must share some respect for science-

You could not answer the question so you have proved my point.

Alethia

Alethia :

Dear Scientist Friend,

"Can you observe empirically the reason you are using to try to explain your position?"

Oh please don't play sophistic games with me.

"Have you seen tomorrow?"

No, nor has anybody else. In my courses, I gave a handout of unbelievably wrong predictions by the biggest experts, to show them how futile is to try to predict the future.

" Do you make plans for tomorrow?"

I certainly do, and I revise them daily as necessary. That does not in the least refute the fact that nobody knows Everything that will happen tomorrow or a year from now.

" Why would you make plans for what is has not been observed yet?"

Oh PLEASE! I make plans so that I can ACCOMPLISH something in my life and I can MONITOR to what extent they are done. These "plans" are mostly JOBS I have to do at work, things I want to see on TV, meetings, etc. None of these are cast in stone.

" You use faith all the time."

No I do not, And EVEN if I did, it has NOTHING to do with RELIGIOUS Faith, that blindly accepts the verses of Alleged holy books as true, with ZERO Proof.

" You plan for the future by faith."

Of course I do not. I plan with knowledge (imperfect, but knowledge nonetheless!) Random events may happen, and may change my plans, but i KNOW that TOO, and have PLANNED fot it!

" When you reason with me you are appealing to the laws of logic to make your case."

There is no other way.

" Yet you cannot see logic."

If I could, I'd say in my earlier post, I use my senses ONLY. I did NOT say that, I said I use my senses AND my brains!

" If you truly only trust in what can be proven empirically"

NO, of course not, I also trust what can be proven MATHEMATICALLY! And I trust that even MORE.

Mathematics is the Queen of the Sciences. And Music, serious classical etc music, is almost 100% MATHEMATICS too! Empirical sciences are imperfect, but Mathematics is not.

That is why many have associated MAth with God, and for Geometry in particular, there is a mnemonic rule to help remember the first few digits of PI, in greek, translated

"Always the God the Great Does Geometry"

" then you would not use logic to try to prove a point."

There is no other way.

" So you see you have not answered the question. "

I have answered all questions, regardless if you liked the answers or not.

"If you are going to use logic to explain things to me and you are an empirisist"

No, actually at work I am not an experimentalist, but a Heavy user of Math, as you may have already guessed.

" I think you better account for logic using the scientific method or else you are living inconsistently with what you say you think."

Logic is a tool of the Scientific Method. Logic is used in Mathematics excusively.

If you only allow Observation and Experiment, and no mathematics, you have excluded most modern science.

Oh, and BTW

I frequently ask people a question and I am quite surprised by their answers.

I ask them to suppose that somebody (God or whoever) would tell them when they would die. No gory details, just the date and the time, such as Nov 21, 2076, 3 PM. Would they LIKE to KNOW or not?

Only I and an old friend (who now is a very wealthy business owner) answered one way, and 98% of the people asked answered the other way.

I am curious what you and all the rest of the forum would choose.

Make it simple, no ifs ands and buts, would you like to know, or not?

Jesus is the Creator of the Universe (Hebrews 1:2). The angels worship Him (Hebrews 1:7). And God calls the SOn God (Hebrews 1:8)

Book of Hebrews Explanation of Who Jesus is

1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son,
today I have begotten you"?

Or again,

"I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son"?

6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him."

7Of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire."

8But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

10And,

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.[a]
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end."

13And to which of the angels has he ever said,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

14Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Peter's Explanation of Who David was talking About

27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

"'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool.'

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Dear Friend,

I will answer your questions when you answer the verses I have already posted about the existence of Christ before He came to earth. I am not going to dance around with your shifting arguments. You answer what is convienant to what you believe but ignore the truth clearly stated that a child would be born that was God (Isaiah 9:6). That Jesus existed before He came to earth (John 8:58), that Jesus received worship from His disciples and did not rebuke them.

In Jesus Christ the Ancient of Days,

Alethia

Dear Scientist Friend,

Can you observe empirically the reason you are using to try to explain your position? Have you seen tomorrow? Do you make plans for tomorrow? Why would you make plans for what is has not been observed yet? You use faith all the time. You plan for the future by faith. When you reason with me you are appealing to the laws of logic to make your case. Yet you cannot see logic. If you truly only trust in what can be proven empirically then you would not use logic to try to prove a point. So you see you have not answered the question. If you are going to use logic to explain things to me and you are an empirisist I think you better account for logic using the scientific method or else you are living inconsistently with what you say you think.

In Christ Jesus,

Alethia

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. (Hebrews 11:1-3)

Alethia :

"As for my scientist friend I have a few questions.

" What makes the scientific method possible?"

Many things, but of course first and foremost that the thinking person Refuses to accept ANYTHING IN FAITH but tries to UNDERSTAND the world we live in with his or her senses and his or har brains. Without the Crutches of allegedly holy scriptures, which were ALL REALLY Written by HUMANS claiming to be inspired by dreams and apparitions and NO PROOF of any of that.

Primitive people used to deify all aspects of NAture, such as the Wind (!), THunder, etc.

THEN the Ancient Greek Philosophers came along, before the classics, in the 7th and 6th century BC, and started a GOLDEN AGE of EXPLAINING RATIONALLY the causes of things.

Humanity forgot these GIANTS for centuries, now called "The DARK AGES" and deservedly so, and also called "THE AGE OF FAITH!"

Eventually Humanity REDISCOVERED THESE BRILLIANT ANCIENT GREEKS, the 100 or 1000 giants that REALLY CHANGED THE WORLD, and that is why you do not wear skins and kill animals with clubs to feed yourself today, and you live not in some decrepit hut but in a small A/C'd paradise instead.

Sir Isaac NEWTON admitted, giant that he was himself, that he was "STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS" and that helped him IMMENSELY to see further and make his discoveries and his achievements.

" Why should we expect things to act in certain ways if we live in a chance universe?"

"A chance universe" may appear so to some, but is sure not agreed to by others. WHat looks like chance (the outcome of a coin toss, heads or tails) to you, is in reality FULLY PREDICZTABLE if you are proficient in the laws of Physics and have all thhe relevant data (forces on the coin, angles at which they are applied, etc). AS EInstein correctly understood, there are NO porobabilities in Real Life. SOmething either HAPPENS or DOES NOT HAPPEN. We just use probability as a convenient tool to express the degree of likelihood for an event before it happens (eg, will it rain tomorrow at noon in a specific location)

"In Jesus Christ Who is the Essence of all Wisdom and Knowledge,"'

There is cartainly no proof for this claim. Jesus was sure a great Religious Leader and Moralist, BUT he sure was NO SCIENTIST of any kind. If he was interested, he might be a good one, but we will never know.

Do not confuse belief with knowledge and proof.

You don’t have to distort the teachings of Muhammad to use them for violence. If you want to use the teachings of Jesus, the Son of God, for violence, you have to distort them. For me, that makes the message of Jesus superior to the message of Muhammad.

Alethia wrote:

"Jesus was humble and meek He did not have to go around saying He was God. The works He did showed that He was God. He forgave sin, calmed the wind and the sea, feed 5,000 men plus woman and children with five loaves of bread and two fish. The prophet Isaiah clearly foretold that a Child would be born that would be the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:5)."

Where does Jesus say he is doing the work? Read carefully:

Right before he performed his biggest miracle, he made sure that people understood that GOD in heaven is doing the work.

"41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me"
(John 11:41-42)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30) [peace be upon Jesus, a true prophet who did what GOD commanded him to do]

You need more?

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." Luke 11:20

Alethia wrote:
"Jesus is God’s only begotten Son of God"

Have you forgot already about prophet David?
Read (Psalm 2:7)
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (DAVID), Thou art my Son; this day have I BEGOTTEN thee."

You should be able to understand that the word begotten is not that special anymore???

Even Peter made it so clear that Jesus is a MAN sent by GOD. Read:
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22)

For the rest of your comments, read:
Genesis: 6:2-4
Exodus: 4:22
Jeremiah: 31:9
Romans: 8:14

Good night!

alethia dont doubt your good intentions- i also beleive that the intentions one reads with colors their perception- the principle of the observer changing what is being observed- (empirically reasoned) and thats why i like talking with you because i trust your good intentions- even if my reaction is initially defensive or less than sterling i have suspicion for your good intentions which tempers my responses.

one can read scripture with the presupposition that there is a God, but my eyes ee differently for i have no presupposition that Jesus(ata) is actually God, i spent years seing it with eyes that believed Jesus(ata) is God, but could never correlate his words with that meaning.

nopw a greek translation of the OT clearly wont work- so monogenes or not its not applicBLE TO THE STATED SCRIPTURE.oops
monotheists view that as we are ALL children of god.

if Jesus(ata)npre-abrahamic, why did Mary have him circumcised in the abrahamic manner?
why was the lineage of Jesus(ata) even through joseph, who had nothing to do with is begetting?
luke 3:23 joseph son of heli
matt 1:16 joseph son of jacob

wouldnt gabriel (or God) have clued her into the divine nature of her son? if she was brave enough to proclaim the spiritual nature of his birth, surely she would have followed through on the natural specialness of Jesus(ata) and disregarded these rules designed for man- but maybe not-

do you know in the Qur'an Jesus(ata) spoke as a babe in arms?

so for me this psalms quoting is not enough- the fact that it was reinterperted as support for something doesnt prove it iether, but thats ok.

also you keep quoting thomas but why do you never quote the gospel of thomas? if he is so important in the proof of the godhood of Jesus(ata) it would see that his gospel would support this.

now if you discount the gospel of thomas, do you also discount his ability to recognize or state the God in Jesus(ata) how is it that he didnt recognize it immediately and why should we trust his impaired judgement as proof?

anyway, how about the trial before the sanhedrins and the seeming feeling of abandonment that Jesus(ata) expressed at the last moments of his earthly life?

did you see your movie?

peace

o also before abraham was I AM - I AM is the name that God gave to himself in the OT-

before abraham existed, God existed- would seem the proper way to interpert it.

as for Jesus(ata) asking for God to glorify him, this seems inconsistent with the humility he always showed- (that was your first statement the humbleness of Jesus(ata)

Dear Victoria,

I agree with you about the personal attacks. I never said that I did not use reason. I believe that God is the precondition for reason meaning that without Him reason would not be possible. As a Christian I want to reason form the scriptures and with a presupposition that God exists. I hold to this presupposition because it best fits the real world we live in. Some will contend that they do not presuppose anything when they reason but that is not true. For example the atheist presupposes that nature is all that there is and that all one can know is what one can observe. This is fatal, however, because this does not fit the world we live in. Take reason for example, have you ever observed a molecule of reason? Or how about love, has anyone ever observed love under a microscope? The atheist then cannot account for the abstract would. He or she tries to explain the world with reason he or she cannot observe while at the same time saying that nature is all that there is. This is a contradiction.

Jesus was humble and meek He did not have to go around saying He was God. The works He did showed that He was God. He forgave sin, calmed the wind and the sea, feed 5,000 men plus woman and children with five loaves of bread and two fish. The prophet Isaiah clearly foretold that a Child would be born that would be the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:5).

Jesus is God’s only begotten Son of God. In Greek, “monogenes,” “only unique Son,” "one of a kind." Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. However, He is the only Son of God of His kind. This is stated in the Old Testament (OT) and is fulfilled in the New Testament (NT). The OT: “I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you” (Psalm 2:7).

The NT:

“And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm” "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you' (Acts 13:32-33).

Jesus was with the Father for all eternity. Some verses that speak of His existence before He came to earth are:
“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).
“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed” (John 17:5).

Jesus put on human flesh and became 100% man while at the same time remaining 100% God. He did this to fulfill His promise to die for sin on behalf of humankind and then to conquer death on behalf of humankind.

What do you think Jesus is telling Thomas here?
8Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

I have to use scripture. I do not want you to think I am making things up.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

Alethia wrote:

"Okay, who was the Child that was born that is called "Everlasting Father" and "Mighty God?" How much clearer does it need to be?"

Let's assume the answer is not known to that question, what right do you have to say this applies to Jesus? I say none.

"How much clearer does it need to be?"

The only thing clear to me is that you just won't see what the scripture (not the church) "really" says. Everytime you bring a new batch of bible verses, I showed you what they mean and you never come back with a meaningful answer. The verses that I quote to you are beyond interpretation and are spoken directly by Jesus. Yet, you always come back, out of disperation, with new questionable texts.

There is ONE question that you have to ask yourself:

Are you willing to accept that the bible is full of contradictions that led you to where you are today or will you do something about it?

If you really are serious about religious knowledge, you cannot restrict yourself to the teaching of the church. Think of "Jesus" said and focus on them. Make a project out of it, but you need to study the "old testament" in order to understand the context of each verse and the metaphores used.

If you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing, I will have to cover more topics you really don't wish me to get closer to. This time, I will be the one quoting the bible!

although you say that you dont use your own reasoning, youve written several paragraphs using nothing but reasoning, which is fine- its good to use tyour brain to figure out the meanings of what you read- it is why ALLAH gave us intelligence-to make distinctions between truth and lies etc..

also i think its indelicate for : to say alethia and victoria are fanatics- i dont recall ever degrading any scientists or atheists or christians or anyone--- we are trying to keep these conversations above the level of personal insults because that only elicits emotional responses and drives reason from the conversation- also it implies that the person who is making the "observation" is reacting from an emotional need to claim some superiority when- in reality- name calling drags everything down with it.
keep it above board

does it mean then, from this passage-that when the sanhedrin accuesed Jesus(ata) of blasphemy according tho their own law- that they were right and he was claiming to be God? even though he told them explicitly he was God's son?
Wht didnt he state that he was God?
he knew their intentions- he had already agreed to drink the cup that God had sent to him- to follow God's will. wouldnt this have been the time for him to declare his godship and claim his due?
he clearly had nothing to lose...
but instead he claimed pointedly that he was God's son- was he lying? playing with words? or was he simply stating the truth?

also there is no reconciliation- no rationale to justify his "last words"
eli eli sabachatani lama- my god my god why have you forsaken me-

if he knew that this was his fate, and he accepted it as gods will- why at the last moment of truth-
would his faith waver to such an incredible degree??

im not asking for a bunch of scripture to sift through, but honestly interested in your personal reasoning with these seeming incongruities...peace

Dear Friend,

Okay, who was the Child that was born that is called "Everlasting Father" and "Mighty God?" How much clearer does it need to be?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Thanks for quoting this verse the interpretation is found in the full context of scripture. Jesus is saying that Christians will have division with non-believers even to there own family members. He is also saying that our love for Him (God) must be more than for our own parents and children. That is why I tell my children to love God more than me He is perfect and I am not. It is interesting that you chose this passage because it highlights the truth that Jesus is above all earthly beings. He is God. Jesus uses the sword metaphorically here and is not speaking of an actual sword. Paul does this also when he speaks of the spiritual battle between good and evil. Note the sword is the word of God. He writes:

The Whole Armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20)
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

And the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 4:11-13)

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The verse you quoted reminds me of the division that is caused between those who believe and those who do not. Jesus is the one who divides the believer from the unbeliever. I guess the latter is true for you and that is why you are against what I am saying. I do not fear you or any other person. I fear (reverence) God who owns my soul.

Verse in Context (Matthew 10:28-39)

28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[f] 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?[g] And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

In Jesus Alone,

Alethia

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In the bible, where are the quotes that showed Jesus being called any of these names?

How many time Jesus was called the "Wonderful Counselor": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Mighty God": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Everlasting Father": Zero
How many time Jesus was called the "Prince of Peace": Zero

The verse is either wrong, an addition, or misinterpreted! Is this another contradiction or misunderstanding?

How can you call Jesus the "prince of peace" when he said:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Alethia: You sound like a very devoted person. I really want you to have another look at the bible.

Alethia:

I say to you what Jesus said again:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

Jesus is asking YOU, don't you know what God means when (and if) it is attributed to him? Don't you know it means a mighty prophet! Don't you know what "worship" means when it is attributed to him or any other prophet? It means follow him and adhore him. When GOD told Moses that he is God to the pharoe and Aron will be his prophet. Does this mean pharoe and Aron should worship Moses? Or does it mean follow him to the heart? When early Muslims used to say to prophet Mohamed "I will sacrifice myself and my parent for you", did that mean they worshiped him or just adhored him more than anything else in their lives?

ALETHIA: The bible is either sending a "conflicting messages" regarding the use of the word "God" or you have to believe in the true meaning (as I explained to you) of the word based on the direct evidence from the bible.

Jesus is asking you one more time: Don't you know what the word means here?

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

He used the Jew's language and metaphores. When Thomas said (if it was said indeed) "My Lord and my God!", he obviously meant what any Jew will say to a highly annointed judge or rabbi. Jesus didn't think in any other term because he expected them to know what they are talking about. He responded properly (John 10:34) when for the first time he saw the Jews twisting the meaning in front of him. So he responded almost sarcastically, don't you know what it means when it is written in YOUR book that "I said, Ye are gods"!

Dear Victoria,

What poem?

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

I just take the scripture for its intended meaning. For example, sometimes there is figurative language which is easily recognized and sometimes there is historical narrative. Again, this is easily recognized. The Bible has parables, proverbs, historical narrative, epistles, apocalyptic writings, poetry, prophecy, and a book of lament. I read each type of scripture keeping this in mind.

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

As for my scientist friend I have a few questions. What makes the scientific method possible? Why should we expect things to act in certain ways if we live in a chance universe?

In Jesus Christ Who is the Essence of all Wisdom and Knowledge,

Alethia

Dear Friend,

I am looking at the scripture in its historical context. Jesus is the Mighty God who was born of woman, the Everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6). You cannot get a clearer statement on Jesus being God. Unless you want to cut it out of the Bible because it does not fit your idea of whom Jesus is. Jesus received worship form the disciples when He gave His great commission in Matthew 28. Thomas called Him. "My Lord and my God" when He realized just who Jesus was. Jesus did not correct Thomas but instead let Thomas marvel at what he had just come to understand.

John 20:27-29
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Word is God and with God at the same time and the Word became Flesh

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it…14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
If this does not say Jesus is God what does it say?

In the Love of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father Jesus,

Alethia

time for 'on faith' to ask another question. what is the cause of war: is it layered in triplicate from ireland, isreal and iraq; religion? or is it reality, ignorance that speaks 'you have invaded my fathers house and i live to die for a cause, and i will go to heaven, only after i personally escort you to hell?'

ALETHIA and VICTORIA:

One of the major errors that our christian brothers fall into is the interpretation of the bible based on a word by word english translation. I can find some execuses for them to be so confused. At the same time, I believe that GOD made it this way as a "miracle" and a clear testimony to the truth of the Islamic belief that Jesus was only sent to the Israelites. Jesus used their language, metaphores, and parables to prove that his message started and will end with them, to the day of judgement. The bible should be looked at in that context.

To give you an example (a very clear one I might add), I ask, when was the most important time when Jesus had the chance to say that he is a god that should be worshipped and that he is one of the three images of one God? I say when the Jews confronted him and "accused" him of saying that he is god! The christian brothers actually jump in joy that Jesus was accused of that crime and they actually take it as a proof that he is god! But "in the language of the Jews", people were called gods (meaning godly people or judges among them). Here are some examples:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

Jesus here is referring to the verse:
"I said, 'you are gods'" Psalm 82:6

Also GOD gave Moses the name God:

"The LORD said to Moses, Behold, I make you as God to Pharaoh [to declare My will and purpose to him]; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet." Exodus 7:1

In essense, the word God when assigned to people, in the language/metaphore of the Jews, it meant messanger from God and a person that have been given the authority from GOD to carry His message and His will on earth. Moses, Jesus, and some Jews actually possesed that quality and earned that name "by GOD's permission".

Every single text of the bible must be looked at in the context of what it meant to the Jews, not to what the church wants you to believe. This fact, as demonstrated by evidence from the bible, shows how deeply misguided the christian masses are. Islam came 600 years after Jesus to re-direct humanity into the original path that Ibraham, Moses, Jacob, Jesus, and all other prophets have taught their followers. All the changes in the books before Islam needed to be highlighted and to make the message clear enough to everyone so that you can't argue in front of GOD the almighty claiming that no one warned you. The duty of Muslims is NOT to convert people to Islam, but rather explain the message and the truth. It is upto each invidual to find the way for himself/herself. I leave you with these two quotes:

From the Quran: "Let there be no complusion in religion". You won't find any explicit declaration like this in any other scripture!

Prophet Mohamed said: "The example of me and all the other prophets is like a very nice house built out stones. People will look at it and wonder, if only for this missing rock in that house, it would have been perfectly built. I am that rock!" He equates himself with all the others and asserts that ALL have come to build the same religion/house of GOD!

This forum is an utter failure.

Besides of the tons of misinformation posted, it has largely degenerated into posts evenly split between two fanatics, Alethia and Victoria.

No wonder most other posters have quietly gone away.

Hopefully people will TRY Science. It is Far More difficult than paroting pieces from so-called Holy books, so it is not for everybody.

Science is the answer to the world's misery. Science has ALREADY worked WONDERS that people could not even IMAGINE a century ago, and in many cases, 10-20 years ago!

ALETHIA Am i mistaken or do you have a more symbolic or broad interpertation of scripture? you dont seem tohave a literal view (which im all infavor of when it comes to the bible.) now, i do okay with the broad view- it was in my literal interpertations that i started having problems. my interpertation of the Qur'an for instance- tends to be a great deal more literal- now as far as the councilof nicea and
the doctrine of the trinity- it was developed in 326
and there are lots of stories of intrigue and even asassinations of bishops opposed tothe trinitarian idea. the thing is the whole concept on only a very few scripture-(some believed to have been added but im not getting into that- and without these very few lines- the idea falls apart.

i went through my bible and underlined every instance where the Jesus(ata) called himself or referred to his humanity- his "manness" i made that word up- and it was over a hundred. i never even thought about a computer at that time and ive done several bible searches and it seems they are cwensored to filter out some searches, like verses that i have memorized dont show up in searches for specific words etc. i honestly havent even tried to use the computer for the Qur'an, instead just studying books- i love books-

really lovely poem- it sounds biblical and i assume you know thats a compliment!
peace and come back with lots of inspirational energy and fill us with a glow from your movie
peace

one very nice custom muslims have is when they meet they give each other the kiss of peace-
i know Jesus(ata) told his followers to greet each other with the kiss ofpeace but this seems to not be the custom now-

once atr my mosque after 911 we invited a bunch of christians and jews for soome shindig or other and i greeted each and every lady with kisses on both cheeks- they laughed at me for awhile over that one.
so as one of the people of the book i leave you with the kiss of
peace

Dear Victoria,

I do not know what questions I did not answer. Perhaps I missed a post. I do use reason when I answer you and I must use the Bible in presenting an argument. I do not think that is unreasonable.

Jesus is the law giver and the judge. He spoke with authority. Matthew records,

When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law (Matthew 7:28-29).

He is God Almighty. Since you do not believe that you have problems with His words in Luke.

The Lord is a Man of war and He will judge all unrighteousness. If He did not punish sin He would not be a good God. That is why God tells us to take up the cause of the weak and afflicted. To help those who cannot help themselves against the wicked.

Many times the Lord is with us but we will not enlist His help. We will not trust Him for the victory. Although it does not say it in the text I think that the men of Judah did not trust the Lord and feared the chariots of iron. Much like the spies who did not trust the Lord when they spied out the land of Canaan.

The Gnostic gospels were rejected because they denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The Apostle John taught against the false teachings of the Gnostics so why would Gnostic gospels be included in the Bible. As for the Apocrypha they were not considered scripture. For example, the book of Macabees is a good history book but not scripture.

People have been trying to tear my faith down since the day I believed. The Lord is my strength and my shield. He comforts me in times of trouble. I can trust Him always. Since He saved me 19 years ago He has always been faithful even when I am weak.

Have a good night Victoria.

In Jesus’ everlasting Arms,

Alethia

For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
13As a father shows compassion to his children,
so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.
14For he knows our frame;[a]
he remembers that we are dust.

15As for man, his days are like grass;
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
and its place knows it no more.
17But the steadfast love of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,
and his righteousness to children's children,
18to those who keep his covenant
and remember to do his commandments.
19The LORD has established his throne in the heavens,
and his kingdom rules over all.

20Bless the LORD, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21Bless the LORD, all his hosts,
his ministers, who do his will!
22Bless the LORD, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the LORD, O my soul!

i just reread my entry i dont mean to imply youre dishonest, sorry it might sound that way i apologize

If you pray for me thats nice alethia, pray for my health or my entrance to paradise, please tho when a cheristian says they will pray for you there is implied that they know better and will pray for someone to "come to Jesus(ata). ive never left Jesus(ata) so you understand that is not a good prayer. promise you wont do that as it is not necessary.

the bible didnt satisfy me for so many reasons.
ive put specific questions to you.
but you ignore them.
read br. mohammeds paragraph on abrogations
i didnt say i became muslim by reading one passage in the bible- i said through 2 hard years of prayer.

18% of muslims in the worls are middle eastern, so
there are other views.

alethia, ive had some of the best philisophical minds try and describ the trinity, and ive never had one really do it, to my satisfaction or theirs. its a mystery is not good enough
a special relationship from god can be had without it...Jesus(ata) managed didnt he?
there are so many questions you havent even attempted honestly to answer or even acknowledge that its pointless to ask more questions to be ignored. its ok ive been down this road countless times and i knew you didnt have the answers.
how do you consider being kept in the flesh being saved?
its my fault i asked for at least one response, and one is what i got.
i dont know maybe ill know in heaven is hardly an answer.
what i have against cut and pastes is they are unconscious and replace the exchange of actual thinking. i never read cut and pastes. they are intellectually lazy way to communicate and i give them as much energy as the person did when they clicked and sent.

alright ill give you one- both from matthew

matt 5:22 whoever shall say thou fool shall be in danger of hellfire.

matt23:17 ye fools and blind.
both spoken by Jesus(ata)
does that mean Jesus(ata) condemns himself to the hellfire? or is he above the laws of God somehow?
either interpertation is, well the Jesus(ata) i know had humility and never presented himself as above God or his laws

Jesus(ata) was not a hypocrite to say something for others and not apply it to himself.

i can copy and paste reams of pages on contradictions in the bible,but i dont want to tear down the bible- its a destructive exercise and does nothing to help anyone. however, i also dont want that destructive energy directed at me because it drains and saddens me and prevents me from having productive conversations.

the years that people spend arguing over countless points in the bible, why not just read a book that requires no argument because it is clear?

imagine if Jesus(ata) had laid out clear rules of engagement of war? with all the wars waged in his name, if he were God surely he could have foresaw this. did he just not see fit to give instruction to future generations?

someone posted some of the rules in a post before, and though they convemiently cut the ayat(verses) off, and plain just skipped over one -191-nothing193- says clearly that only if someone is fought against, then a muslim is allowed TO DEFEND THEMSELF- but as soon as the AGGRESSION stops so should they stop fighting.
EXODUS15:3 THE LORD IS A MAN OF WAR
??? what is that?
judges 1:19 aND THE lORD WAS WITH jUDAH and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountains, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron. (?)
does that mean God cant control his own creation? Is God susceptible or powerless against the strenghth of iron???

and these are just snippets sitting beside me i didnt even try.

and the apocrypha, and barnabus and thomas- what of their gospels?

see, it doesnt feel good when someone tears up something you believe in does it?

id rather discuss why islam is my religion.

its not likely that ill go see that movie because my husband is a big spoiled baby and always wants to see everything.
the billboards told hi to go see the davinci code, so we went to see it. he fell asleep after 1 hour and it was 3 hours long.
id read a book some years before called holy blood holy grail and everything from the book was in the movie. then my dad told me ron brown was being sued by the same authors. michael hart i think.

its all just a massive rationale to prove that the kings of england were from the family lineage of Jesus(ata) anyway.

ill throw the suggestion to him but were both so busy we dont get to the movies much.
but if it comes out on video ill be sure to see it.

because ALLAH didnt want people to worship Mohammed (pbuh) like a god, his image is not shown but theres a movie called the messenger that is i think ok. thanks for the ear, im dizzy from cleaning my bathroom with chemicals so im going to go for now peace and always nice talking to you

Dear Gaby,

I go to a non denominational church. This brings up an interesting truth about what the Church actually is. The church is not a building. The Church is people who believe in Jesus Christ. The people of God are "living stones." Peter put it this way,

"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:

'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame'"(1 Peter 2:4-6).

I usually wait until movies come out on DVD also but not this one. Have a great weekend!

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

I woke up last night and thought of you and I prayed for you. I do think you are a nice person.

I have talked with many Middle Eastern Muslims over the years and that is where I got that idea that they thought I was bringing God down by saying that Jesus is God.

Everything a believer needs is in the Bible I do not need to look to another book. Yes, I do believe in one God and I have no problem with the Shema. I have laid out that case above. Just quoting the Shema does not refute that there are three persons that are one God. In fact, I think in the Shema itself is the idea of diversity and unity. That is the three persons are unified as one God. As I pointed out above, “in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (singular). Like, let us (plural) make man in our own image”(Genesis 1:26). Again I have made the case that part of being made in the image of God is the relational aspect of our nature. In other words God made us with the ability to relate because He is a God of relationship from all eternity. If you want to see what a perfect relationship is about, look at the model of God the Son and God the Father. In all due respect you have not addressed this issue and you have not demonstrated that it is implausible. Quoting the Shema does not show the Trinity to be untrue.

I do not know why is appears that two of Paul’s conversion accounts differ when speaking about Paul’s traveling companions but I will find out when I am in heaven. Maybe some heard the voice and others did not among his companions. Anyway, that is not enough to shake my faith in the mountains and mountains of truth contained in the scriptures.

It is interesting that you bring this up in light of the fact that Muhammad made a provision for contradictions in the Qur’an with the doctrine of abrogation (Naskh). That is why on one hand Muhammad could say nice things about the people of the book and then he would say, “make no friends of Christians and Jews” on the other hand. There are contradictions in the Qur’an. For example,

“No change can there be in the Words of Allah” (Sura 10:64)
”There is none that can alter the Words of Allah” (Sura 6:34)

“When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

I guess “I understand not” why Allah is changing his revelation. I guess making a statement like that is enough to appease us all. Now the contradiction above has to do with God’s nature. Can Allah’s word be altered or not?

Was Pharaoh drowned or not?

Pharaoh was Spared
"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
Pharaoh was not Spared
Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

As for your charge that I am cutting and pasting would you rather I type each verse I quote from the Bible and the Qur’an. I would be a fool to do that when I have acess to both online. You make this charge as if it diminishes the arguments (arguments in a classical sense not arguing) I have been making. Victoria, is it not correct to document and quote sources in making one’s case?

As for your feeling that the Bible led you to the Qur’an through Proverbs 3:5-6. Why would you trust the Bible to do that? You said it is corrupted.

Are you going to see the Nativity?

In Jesus Grace,
Alethia

i like this website, i spend most of my time reading what other people very different (but not really) than myself's opinions and experiences.
but this evangelical crusade is getting on my nerves. ive tried to rise above it- but it seems im letting myslef get sucked into it in trying to defend some ludicrous assertions against my faith.
thats not why im here.

i dont believe that people are going to change their religion because someone attacks it, as a matter of fact most attacks have led me deeper into consolidating my own beliefs and researching so now in real life i can probably effect a better dawa.

my religion is a record of what i do mostly not what i say. and here i do nothing but say words, which have their power but i dont want to get into an endless competition of your scripture versus my scripture. im going to go pet my kitties now.
peace all

here is that verse-
PRVOERBS 3:5-6 TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
6)IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AND HE WILL MAKE YOUR PATHS STRAIGHT.

It was prayers like this that led me to the straight path of islam,

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE MOST
MERCIFUL.
ALL THE PRAISES AND THANKS ARE TO ALLAH, THE LORD
OF THE ALAMIN(MANKIND AND ALL THAT EXISTS)
THE MOST GRACIOUS THE MOST MERCIFUL
THE ONLY OWNER OF THE DAY OF RECOMPENSE
YOU (ALONE) WE WORSHIP AND YOU (ALONE)
WE ASK FOR HELP.
>>>> GUIDE US TO THE STRAIGHT WAY <<<<<<
THE WAY OF THOSE ON WHOM YOU HAVE BESTOWED YOUR
GRACE. NOT THE WAY OF THOSE WHO EARNED
ANGER, NOR OF THOSE WHO WENT ASTRAY.

I had intended to quote the exact scripture and reference it there because i paraphrased it from memory before- but i thought you might like to see Al-Fatihah, the prayer above which unifies all muslis in purpose and intent it is said countless millions of times every day by millions of muslims all over the world in every nationality- dont you think GOD wants to give unity to his peoples? He is not a God od disorder and chaos-

so GABY yes, i do need a prophet's revelation- not to be secure in the knowledge that there IS A GOD but TO KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS OF ME- WHAT IS THE HIGHEST BEHAVIOR THAT I CAN ASPIRE TO.. AND WHAT IS THE BEST FORM TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM!

IVE TRIED THEM ALL- WORSHIPFULLY AND RESPECTFULLY,
AND THE CONSISTENT AND UNWAVERING AND FOCUSED ONE POINTED CONCENTRATION AND DESPAIRING LONGING OF MY HEART AND SOUL HAS LED ME IRREVOCABLY TO ALLAH- TO THE SEMINAL FEATURE OF THE ONENESS OF GOD.

ALETHIA- AS A JEW JESUS(ATA) PRAYED MANY TIMES EVERY DAY THE SHEMA-
HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD!!!!!!

WILL YOU PRAY DIFFERENTLY THAN JESUS(ATA)?????
DO YOU PRESUME TO KNOW A BETTER WAY TO PRAY THAN JESUS(ATA) HIMSELF?
oopscaps again, sorry.

are you going to try and tell me that Jesus(ata) didnt pray this?

here is my challenge for you alethia and anyone else... settle this in your heart, not in words words words driven by the ego and desire for spiritual one-upsmanship. spiritual pride is the last vestige of pride in a spiritual evolution but the hardest to overcome.

what is your interpertation of what revelations repeatedly tells you to overcome?

it was in READING THE BIBLE THAT I BECAME MUSLIM!!

when i ws reading that Jesus(ata) would send a comforter- i was struck by a thunderbolt of certainty that the comforter is Mohammed(pbuh)

ask God to continue to lead you to the straight path that HE wants you to worship him with...
not the path that you have grown comfortable with

if you are sure of your faith and christianity the prayer will only lead you deeper into your faith.

how can you go wrong with this? it is a win win situation.

br. mohammed again thanks you bring a deeper understanding to those with ears to hear

ALETHIA- You start your post saying you know muslims think a certain way- because we are bringing god down to less than he is? you are wrong. you take a tiny thing and try to make a bad spin on it.
doesnt the bible say- do not lean on your own understanding but instead trust in God? in psalms

youll never hear me speaking for christians, snakehandlers, buddhists or anyone and stating i presume to know what they think- i dont presume to know what muslims think or anyonwe else-only myself.
instead ofmaking an assertion from what you IMAGINE
i will elaborate- ALLAH is beyond the limiting and BRINGING DOWN TO A HUMAN LEVEL- HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE COUNTLESS so we cannot with our egos limit them to a human dimension- trying to HUMANIZE the nature of ALLAH does not elevate but rather denigrates Him.

you mix up your scripture hiding old testament "prophecies" that not all agree are in reference to Jesus(ata), even among christians, with new testament, well it doesnt matter ive seen this many times. it requires an initial agreement as to the interpertation of the old testament to make it make sense.

One thing , please stop saying that Muhammed (pbuh) said this or that.
By continuing to deman the Prophet(pbuh) YOU DO NOT build up any credence.
If you didnt know, the Qur'an was sent as the words of ALLAH through the angel Jibreel(gabriel) to the Prophet(pbuh).
The Prophet(pbuh) did not make these statements but relayed them to mankind.

As to the corruption of the bible, i gave 3 scriptures in direct and total contradiction to each other concerning the conversion of paul on the road to damascus, 3 separate and differing accounts of the same event.

conveniently you have skipped over addressing this.

also why did the scripture that is known as the books of the apocrypha-(over 10) get thrown out of the bible?
how can the bible denounce itself?
does that mean they were wrong?
will there be other books proclaimed wrong in the future?
who decides what is wrong to throw it out?

why are there 2 versions of daniel? which one is right?
and 2 versions of jeremiah chapter 6?

and 6 EXTRA BOOKS OF ESTHER?
if the bible is not corrupted was it corrupt before when it contained these books?
why are there over 20 translations of the bible that disagree with each other?

you capitalize the word SON in your post but it is not capitalized in the bible.

i have answered at length and in detail any assertions youve made using your own bible to do so, will you finally answer even one of the many questions ive asked?

im not interested in another cut and paste of offense and attacks against islam, but have been waitong patiently for some defense of the many points ive brought up- but you remain silent in regards to.

as ive said- there are countless horrific verses from the bible regarding exhortations to dash childrens heads against the ground, and plunder and steal peoples belongings, and raping married women!!!!
im not posting them because it is unseemly.

but please address at least ONE of the points!
just one!

if you respond with another cut and paste angainst islam i will know for sure you have no defense and that will , in my eyes , be an admission on your part that the bible is indeed corrupted.

It seems to me that the question of whether or not Islam is a violent religion misses the current reality.
The field of Islam has been effectively taken over by those Islamic teachers who invoke and teach it as justifying this mindless killing of innocent people,suicide bombers,followers who get on airplanes to blow up as many innocent souls as possible all in the name of ALLAH.
As a pragmatic matter, as long as those who believe that Islam is non- violent are unable to convince the clerics who advocate violence that they are not acting in accordance with Islam, the rest of us must regard the most effective voices of Islam as essentially violent and take steps to prevent them from killing the rest of us.

Alethia,

You shock me! Does that mean you don't attend church?

No, I'm not going to see the Nativity story. I'm not to go to the movies much. I'll wait unitl it comes out on DVD and then see it.

Dear Gaby,

I am simply a Christian. Faith is only as strong as the object of faith. My faith is not in things that are temporal. My faith is in the living God who is clearly seen in all that He has made. He is revealed in His creation, He is revealed in His word, and He was revealed in His first coming. The works He did fulfilled that which was spoken of Him before He even came. For example, the Isaiah 53 passage I quoted above described His crucifixion hundreds of years before He came. If you click on the link I provided above you can read the prophecy in totality. Jesus fulfilled I all things that I highlighted above and more. So as you can see it is not, "blind faith." What is the object of your faith?

God bless you and have a great weekend. Are you going to see The Nativity movie? I am very excited about the movie.

In Jesus' Rescuing Power,

Alethia

Theory of abrogation invalidated by the Holy Qur’an
“The principle on which the theory of abrogation is based is unacceptable, being contrary to the clear teaching of the Qur’an. A verse is considered to be abrogated by another when the two cannot be reconciled with each other; in other words, when they appear to contradict each other. But the Qur’an destroys this foundation when it declares that no part of it is at variance with another: “Will they not then meditate on the Qur’an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy” (4:82). It was due to lack of meditation that one verse was thought to be at variance with another; and hence it is that in almost all cases where abrogation has been upheld by one person, there has been another who, being able to reconcile the two, has repudiated the alleged abrogation.
Sayuti on abrogation:
It is only among the later commentators that we meet with the tendency to augment the number of verses thought to have been abrogated, and by some of these the figure has been placed as high as five hundred. In this connection, Sayuti, one of the well-known commentators, says: “Those who multiply (the number of abrogated verses) have included many kinds –one kind being that in which there is neither abrogation, nor any particularization (of a general statement), nor has it any connection with any one of them, for various reasons. And this is as in the words of God: ‘And spend out of what We have given them’ (2:3); ‘And spend out of what We have given you’ (63:10); and the like. It is said that these are abrogated by the verse dealing with charity (zakat), while it is not so, they being still in force” Sayuti himself brings the number of verses which he thinks to be abrogated down to twenty-one, in some of which he considers there is abrogation, while in others he finds that it is only the particularization of a general injunction that is effected by a later verse; but he admits that there is a difference of opinion even about these.”
“The rule of interpretation of the Quran is given in the Book itself,
“He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive __ they are the basis of the Book __ and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it their own interpretation. And none do mind except men of understanding.” (3:6).
The following rules may, therefore, be laid down:
-- The principles of Islam are enunciated in decisive words in the Qur’an; and, therefore, no attempt should be made to establish a principle on the strength of an allegorical passage, or of words susceptible of different meanings.
-- The explanation of the Book should in the first place be sought in the Qur’an itself; for, whatever it has stated briefly, or merely hinted at, in one place, will be found expanded and fully explained elsewhere in it.
-- It is very important to remember that the Qur’an contains allegory and metaphor along with what is plain and decisive, and the only safeguard against being misled by what is allegorical or metaphorical is that the interpretation of such passages must be strictly in consonance with what is laid down in clear and decisive words, and not at variance therewith.
When a law or principle is laid down, any statement carrying a doubtful significance, or a statement apparently opposed to the law so laid down, must be interpreted subject to the principle enunciated. Similarly that which is particular must be read in connection with and subject to more general statements.”( Religion Of Islam_-Maulana Muhammad Ali.

Alethia,

Because of your fervor and blind faith in the Bible I cannot help myself, I just have to ask.

Exactly what sect do you belong to?

Correction: Muhammad came along 600 years later.

In Jesus Christ,

Alethia

Dear Victoria,

Hope all is well with you.

Quote from Victoria
“One thing that people maybe dont remember or know about the Qur'an is that God is not redundant and does not find it necessary to repeat himself.
( i have to put it in human terms although we dont worship ALLAH as a human or even describe him that way-hence no caps there) the Quran is the correction, the last word- there is only one uncorrupted and perfect version that has been protected by ALLAH for 1400 some
years- even if you dont want to accept it as such- still there are some sublime stories contained within- some about the same biblical prophets”

I know that Muslims say this because they think it is bringing God down to less than He is but that is not the case. Jesus is 100% God while at the same time 100% human. The one thing that none of my Muslim friends have shown me is how Islam can come along 400 years after Jesus and then start changing what He said? I also have not seen any proof that Jesus was a Muslim when Islam did not even exist yet. It is true that Jesus was in complete "submission" to the Father but that does not mean that He was part of the Muslim religion as we have come to know it. That has yet to be proven. The assertion by my Muslim friends that the Bible has been corrupted has never been proven either. Every defense of these assertions that I have heard has been based on falsehoods.

The Old Testament told us the coming of the Messiah beginning in Genesis 3 when God told Satan that the seed of a woman would bruise Satan’s head (Genesis 3:15). God continually restated His promise to send the Messiah throughout the Old Testament. Isaiah 53 recorded how the Messiah would pay for sin by His substitutionary death. It is as follows:

“But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:5-6http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=is%2053;&version=47;).

Also Psalm 2 tells us that Jesus is the begotten Son of God:
“I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:7-12).
Isaiah 9 tells us that this Son would be God:
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus received worship without stopping those who worshipped:
“Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:28-29).

“Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’”

Note: “The name” is singular not “the names” “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” There are three persons here who are one. For us this is part of being made in God’s image. The truth that we are relational is part of being made in God’s image. This is why we can relate to Him in a way no other creatures can. He has had a relationship for all eternity within the three persons of the Godhead.

The Bible tells us that the Messiah would be born from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That He would come from the Jewish tribe of Judah. That He would be a descendant of David (2 Samuel 7:16; Matthew1:1; 2:19). That He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12-13a; Mathew 26:14-15). That the Messiah would be murdered (Daniel 9:26). That His body would not see decay that He would defeat death (Psalm 16:10-11; Acts 2:27). All these things Jesus fulfilled. These truths all demonstrate that the Bible as a whole is a unified message and that Jesus, God the Son would come and die for our sins and rise from the dead.

The Qur’an says none of this is true. If the Qur’an is correct than Christianity is a hopeless religion. If the Qur’an is correct there is no payment for our sins and we who believe in Jesus are hopeless and still in our sins. But Muhammad was not correct and because of Jesus all who believe have had their sins paid for. Because of Jesus all who believe have eternal life because He has risen from the dead.

I have laid out a case throughout this thread with documentation. I have yet to see this done on the other side. Just because Muhammad said these things were not true does not make it so. He came along 400 years after Jesus. He made some very strong statements about Christianity. The only thing the Muslim has to rest on is that Muhammad said Allah told him those things. Why should I believe him when I have a whole body of unified witness about our fall in the garden, the promise of God to send a Savior, the promise that this Savior would die in the place of sinners, and the promise that He would raise from the dead setting that captives free. The only thing I have from Muhammad is assertions charging that these things are not so. There is no proof… not one shred of proof.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

“only strong hadith and strict quran i never heard those ugly stories and are so extrememly out of character for the Prophet(pbuh) that i think maybe they may have some question to their validity” (Victoria) - Another possibility is that you don’t know, or don’t even want to know, consiously or unconsiously, the true character of Muhammed. In other words ... that you are living in denial, instead of accepting the facts.

What I don't understand is why one needs the Bible or Koran to begin with. Why do you need someone else's revelations to be secure in the knowledge that there is a God? And why do you need to worship someone other than him? The Christians get upset when someone says anything bad about Jesus and the Muslims do the same for their Muhammad. Why? You have elevated 2 humans to godlike status and you appear to worship them more than God. Why?

If Islam isn’t violent then why are Islam’s borders and its innards so bloody? The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. I agree with Muslims who claime that “true” Islam (Suffism) is not a violent religion, but is Islam only a religion? No. It’s also a political ideology, which tries to hide its violent behavior behind the religion. Failure to counter this ideology has allowed radical Islam to flourish in the West. Stricter checks should be made to exclude extremist clerics from Western countries.

no i had intended to post alot of horrific bible verses but changd my mind- i was referring to my own posts that i never put- i thought such an action on my part would serve no good purpose. to date i dont believe ive made any personal comments and insha'alla i hope i willnot i was ashamed of my instinct to rejoinder peace the apology was nice tho
but not necessary
but you have to be very careful of your sources too
only strong hadith and strict quran i never heard those ugly stories and are so extrememly out of character for the Prophet(pbuh) that i think maybe they may have some question to their validity
peace

VICTORIA:

If you were addressing my post, I wasn't ugly at all. I am just amazed at the amount of denial on this forum. Unbelievable responses and out of context quotes. Someone has to highlight this issue in the proper manner. I thought I did, may be a little bit harshly. If so, my apologies.

honestly i will find no delight in posting violent and ugly posts- it will serve no good purpose.
may ALLAH give your heart some peace

A SALAAMU ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULAHI WA BARAKATU BROTHER MOHAMMED AHMAD, Thank you for your heavily cited and
indisputable proof of the peaceful nature of Islam.
ALLAH loves not the aggressors.
that says it all
everything is conscientiously referenced and
i hope that you will pop in here again with your knowledge

anonymous i cant follow your posts because 4363 is a meaningless number

i can also post countless scripture out of context, instead let me give a few in context

It is quite amazing to see that christians base their faith on finding faults in others rather than searching for a decent message from their scriptures! As I indicated earlier, Jesus declared, with all the honesty of a prophet, that he was sent to the house of Israel. He even went as far as saying that the Jews were the sheeps he is after, and everyone else is a dog!

"And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."!!!

The quotes need no intrepretation. Yet our friend "Alethia" came up with a nice "tongue and cheek" qualifier! It shows how "brainwashed" you people are. Is it too much to ask from you to "think" and stop repeating the drills!!! Then another revealation from an anonymous poster that "christians actually started calling each others christians in the book of Acts"! The book of Acts has no known author and the earliest date that book was authored was 65 years after Jesus left this earth (look up this fact yourself). Jesus NEVER heared or ordered his disciples to use the word "chritianity". You know why? Because Jesus never intended to come up with a new religion! He said to his disciples many times that he didn't come with any different tradition than Moses'and he told them to wait for the spirit of truth to guide them to all truth. He said "I have many things to tell you but you can't bare them now". He knew they didn't have the capacity. Jesus even got frustrated with them at time. At one instance he told them "Still can't understand my words, ye of little faith". Yes he called his "disciples" of little faith. Jesus teachings were very specific and were fashioned to fit the lifestyle of the Jews at his time.

Why? Why take the truth and flip it on its face like that? Why follow preachers who have nothing to lose but their wealth that they gather from all these brainwashed heads? Why can't you see what's "really written" in the bible? You claim to be a bible believer! I ask you, no I beg you, please read the bible and let your minds share some space with your emotions when you read it. Is this too much to ask?

I truely wish that you open your eyes and think of the day when we all meet in front of the one true God. We will all be asked what we did to warn each others. Oh God, I delivered the message, so be my witness!

Muhammad assassinates poets and poetesses.

These two poets represent others in early Islam.

March 624: Uqba bin Abu Muayt

Uqba mocked Muhammad in Mecca and wrote derogatory verses about him. He was captured during the Battle of Badr, and Muhammad ordered him to be executed. "But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?" Uqba cried with anguish. "Hell," retorted the prophet coldly. Then the sword of one of his followers cut through Uqba’s neck.

March 624: Asma bint Marwan

Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans, and whose husband was named Yazid b. Zayd. She composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. When the prophet heard what she had said, he asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?" A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep.

The following morning, the assassin defied anyone to take revenge. No one took him up on his challenge, not even her husband. In fact, Islam became powerful among his tribe. Previously, some members who had kept their conversion secret now became Muslims openly, "because they saw the power of Islam," so conjectures an early Muslim source that reports the assassination.

In addition to the sources that recount these and other assassinations, the Quran also supports harsh punishments for mockers and insulters (Suras 3:186; 33:57; 33:59-61; and 9:61-63).

The Qur’an says:

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors”. 2:190

"قاتلوا في سبيل الله الذين يقاتلونكم ولا تعتدوا إن الله لا يحب المعتدين" البقرة 190:2

“And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter” 2:191

" وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ وَلاَ تُقَاتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِن قَاتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ كَذَلِكَ جَزَاء الْكَافِرِينَ" البقرة 191:2

“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression”. 2:193

" وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلّهِ فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَانَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ" ابقرة 193:2

“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216

" كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ وَهُوَ كُرْهٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تُحِبُّواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ شَرٌّ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ" البقرة 216:2

Here we see for the first time that war was permissible. Remember that in the earlier days of Islam, war was not allowed. But these verses abrogate the earlier verses, allowing war both in self-defense and against those who the Muslims did not have a treaty with. However, even these verses were in turn abrogated by these later verses:

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

"فَلْيُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ الَّذِينَ يَشْرُونَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا بِالآخِرَةِ وَمَن يُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيُقْتَلْ أَو يَغْلِبْ فَسَوْفَ نُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء"74:4

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا" النساء 89:4

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"لاَّ يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُوْلِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً وَكُـلاًّ وَعَدَ اللّهُ الْحُسْنَى وَفَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء 95:4

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن قُوَّةٍ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدْوَّ اللّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تُظْلَمُونَ" الأنفال 60:8

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ" الأنفال 65:8

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"قَاتِلُوهُمْ يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللّهُ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ وَيُخْزِهِمْ وَيَنصُرْكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَيَشْفِ صُدُورَ قَوْمٍ مُّؤْمِنِين" التوبة 14:9

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُون" التوبة 29:9

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

"قُلْ هَلْ تَرَبَّصُونَ بِنَا إِلاَّ إِحْدَى الْحُسْنَيَيْنِ وَنَحْنُ نَتَرَبَّصُ بِكُمْ أَن يُصِيبَكُمُ اللّهُ بِعَذَابٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ أَوْ بِأَيْدِينَا فَتَرَبَّصُواْ إِنَّا مَعَكُم مُّتَرَبِّصُون" التوبة 52:4

Now, what we see here is this: the Quran orders Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth (all of the earth) by any means. Most Islamic scholars say that one verse of the Quran (9:5) abrogates 124 verses, which are basically all the verses that talk about peace and forgiveness. This is the verse that says:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

"فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ" التوبة 5:9

As we see clearly in this verse (which is commonly called the verse of the sword) there is only one way out for pagans (or infidels) to be spared from being slain. They should repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, i.e. become Muslims. As for people of the book we read the verse in the same sura v. 29, which tells us the way out of being killed “until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

They have to pay protection money and accept to be subdued, i.e. second class citizens, even if they live in their homeland. We see this put into practice in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and all the Middle Eastern countries that were conquered by Muslims in the first 100 years of Islam. The ancestors of the Christians who live there now suffered a lot to stay Christian.

Now, there is a fiqhi rule that has to be taken into consideration when studying this:العبرة بعموم اللفظ لا بخصوص السبب, i.e. what is considered is the absoluteness of the utterance, not the specialization of the reason for the revelation. That is, they follow the letter, not the spirit of the law...

In other words Muslims scholars when they make a judgement they consider the Quran and Mohammad in the light of their meaning not in the light of reasons of revelation.

Mohammad Ahmad,

Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”

Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

The Messenger of Allah called out to them: O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam and you will be safe.” When the answer was unsatisfactory, he told them: “You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land” (4363).

“I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims,” Muhammad declared to ’Umar (4366).

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Pope Benedict’s comments refer to a saying of the Holy Prophet which I quote:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been commanded that I should fight these people until they bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and keep up prayer and pay zakat (obligatory charity). When they do this, their blood and their property shall be safe with me except as Islam requires, and their reckoning is with Allah."1

Regarding such sayings, the Holy Prophet said “My sayings do not abrogate the word of Allah (the Holy Qur’an), but the word of Allah can abrogate my sayings.2

The saying (hadith) quoted above and referred to by the Byzantine emperor begins with the words, I have been commanded (or ordered), and the command to fight is contained in the Holy Qur’an in the following words:

“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed this limit.” (2:190).

Muslims, therefore, could not resort to fighting unless an enemy was the first to assume hostilities. What the Saying means is that fighting begun under these conditions is to cease when the enemy people accept Islam.

Moreover the Holy Quran further specifies: “There is no compulsion in religion (2: 256).” “Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made because they are oppressed” (22:39). “And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors (2:190). “And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah.” (2:193). “And if Allah did not repel some people by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered would have been pulled down”. (22:40). The Holy Quran Uses the Arabic word qital for fighting which is only allowed in self defense and against religious persecution of all faiths. The Arabic word Jihad is not used in the Qur’an for this purpose. The only Jihad the Holy Quran refers to is with it: “And strive against them a mighty striving with it.” (25:52). This means conveying the word of God to other people through peaceful dialogue. It is the only scripture which clearly and categorically states,
“There is no compulsion in religion”.
Islam by its very name is a religion of peace. History bears witness to the fact that the Holy Prophet was the only religious figure in the annals of world history who forgave his persecutors against whom he had fought only in self defense as the word of God had commanded him. When Makkah the city of his blood-thirsty opponents and persecutors was conquered, not a drop of blood was spilt, nor was anyone forced to convert to Islam. He forgave them all by quoting the Qur’anic verse, “No reproof be against you this day.” (12:92).
After quoting the Byzantine emperor the Pope should have pointed out that the Byzantine emperor was wrong. This would have gone a long way in promoting religious dialogue.
Also I would advise the evangelical extremists to study the Holy Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet before engaging in false propaganda and innuendo against Islam and its Holy founder. Last and not the least those who engage in terrorism in the name of Islam and their leaders should learn from the example of the Holy Prophet and study the word of God, rather then follow the ignorant Mullah, or be misled, by the political demagogues.

1 Bu 2:16-Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24 Muhsin Khan.
2 (Al-Mishkat al-Masabih 1:6

PS WHy would i listen to islamic propaganda for bible information? that would be crazy AND stupid!
i have a brain and can read for myself. i dont go to a plumber for heart surgery, i go to the source!

ALETHIA- im happy to see a scripture that says christianity is for all the nations- i dont agree with elitism in religion- now it still doesnt deal with the apparent contradictions- but im not pushing that- it is what it is.
I like the verse on abraham. Mohammed(pbuh) is descended form ishmael-and indeed abrams seed is spread throughout the earth and as many as the stars in the sky. Jesus(ata) and Mohammed(pbuh) are cousins- when asked by the sahaba(companions of the Prophet(pbuh) who would be closest to him in paradise, he crossed his first 2 fingers and said,"Jesus(ata) and I will be like this in paradise."
one of the things that always bothered me and is answered in islam is- sarai was so MEAN and petty in the bible version! i never could reconcile her terrible jealous and spiteful behavior with the wife of a prophet! i mean, sending a woman and her baby off to the desert to die! but it is explained at length in the Qur'an and she was not like that.

One thing that people maybe dont remember or know about the Qur'an is that God is not redundant and does not find it necessary to repeat himself.
( i have to put it in human terms although we dont worship ALLAH as a human or even describe him that way-hence no caps there) the Quran is the correction, the last word- there is only one uncorrupted and perfect version that has been protected by ALLAH for 1400 some
years- even if you dont want to accept it as such- still there are some sublime stories contained within- some about the same biblical prophets-

hey, its only fair, ive read your book!

but no, we dont believe in the divinity of Jesus(ata) but i havent for so many years...
the reaon i couldnt embrace judaism is because it demanded that i renounce Jesus(ata) which i could never do. it would have been a subtraction of my faith- a regression- whereas the Prophet(pbuh) is an addition, a progression of my spiritual evolution.
you really were gracious to GABY and i applaud you for that. humility and passion alethia- thats you.

i moved to new york from chicago last year and had to give away my bibles- i like the feel of a book in my hands and cant get the hang of looking up scripture on the net(no tactile inspiration there- that intangible) i have some ray bradbury inme in that respect- ill be an old lady ranting at the kids- read a book!
i digress as alwys

GOKHAN no separation of secular and sacred in TURKEY???? ARE YOU SERIOUS?? do oyou think im going to go into a mosque and say long live kemalpasha?? look at the fury when those 50 turks were praying in the hagia sophia! even the soccer teams ARE DIVIDED BETWEEN SACRED AND SECULAR. I CANT THINK OF A COUNTRY THAT IS MORE DIVIDED ALONG THOSE LINES THAN TURKEY! SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS oops
now as for muslims believing deceitfully- perhaps delusionally would be more accurate.

personally it never occurred to me to gloat about the popes prayer i was too busy applauding his gracious manners but i can see how some might have such a self glorifying motive- i think it was really beautiful and helped heal the rift and i think the pope did too- did you see the video of the prayer? it was really moving- i saw it on zaman-

but i personally would be really interested to hear about your experiences as a converted christian- were you treated badly? well? i imagine your family must have given you a hard time...possibly..how do i know? maybe you could share with us peace all
GABY IS GABY short for gabriel? i love that name
i had a cat that i wanted to name gabriel but i named galadriel( i made it up) cuz i thought it would be disrespectful to call a cat an angel name
peace dotn i babble on? yes i do

Pope's visit was for political reason since religion on this part of the world. Since there is no separation of Secular and Sacred world over there; his actions/behaviours were his religion according to Muslims.

Muslims took his actions as if he 'submitted' himself to Islam and naturally this creates a reaction of pride in Muslims. How do I know it? I was a Muslim from Turkey and became Christian later and lived among them.

I think Pope went too far to submit Islam instead of keeping balance in his actions. Islamic world would feel strenghted and deceitfully will believe that they have power over Pope. Some of this actions were good but the bad one was turning his face to Kabbe for prayer in a Mosque was the bad one.

An interesting thing happened to me last night. I met a Native American friend of mine and he asked me out of the blue what religion I am. So I told him I belong of the Church of Gaby. He wanted me to elaborate and I explained that my God lives in nature and the beauty that is evident in all living things; that I didn't need to follow an organized religion because I know my own truth. He smiled and told me he is a Calvinist. When I said I thought that was odd, he gently reminded me that his name is Calvin. We found out that our two faith are very much alike.

In Acts 11:26 the disciples were first called christians.
Jesus Christ the personal name of the One whose title gave its nameto the Christian religion. Since "Jesus" was a fairly common name in the first century, distinguishingphrases were used when referring to Him.( Jesus of Nazareth;Jesus,Son of David,the Messiah Jesus;Christ Jesus; and Jesus Christ.

Dear Gaby,

Perhaps I should have said, "I think." You are right it is what I think is true by reading the whole Bible. When you see Jesus in the Gospels he is continually commending the faith of Gentiles. This is in keeping with God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. He tells Abraham that he would be a blessing to the nations. His promise is as follows:

Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. (Genesis 12:1-3).

Jesus also in His commission to the church said:

"Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:16-20).

He tells his disciples to preach His messsage to "all the nations." Therefore, I know God's plan is for all people both Jew and Gentile.

Jesus geneology also has Gentiles included, like Rahab , Ruth the Moabite, and Tamar the Canaanite.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes and God bless

In Jesus' Love and Grace,

Alethia

Evil is the normal state of affairs. The question that one should be asking is that in todays world who is supporting good. The Religions fought their wars through the centuries. In the 20th Century, the anti-religionists had their shot: The Facists and Communists in Europe and the Communist in Asia. These people killed more people than any group in history. Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, etc. were all against religion and killed to impose their rule. At their time, the Christians, Jews and Muslims have been a light for education and science. Christianity and Judaism have evolved and to the extent the Muslims have evolved, there are other Muslims attempting to go back in history. But the bottom line is Religion has given mankind his finer moments.

Just so we can clear up who wrote what, please see tye following:

"The Acts of the Apostles (Greek Praxeis Apostolon) is a book of the Bible, which now stands fifth in the New Testament. It is commonly referred to as simply Acts.

Acts tells the story of the Early Christian church, with particular emphasis on the ministry of the Twelve Apostles and of Paul of Tarsus. The early chapters, set in Jerusalem, discuss Jesus's Resurrection, his Ascension, the Day of Pentecost, and the start of the Twelve Apostles' ministry. The later chapters discuss Paul's conversion, his ministry, and finally his arrest and imprisonment and trip to Rome.

It is almost universally agreed that the author of Acts also wrote the Gospel of Luke. The traditional view is that both the two books were written c. 60 by a companion of Paul named Luke — a view which is still held by many theologians. Alternatively, many modern scholars view the books as having been written by an unknown author at a much later date, sometime between 80 and 150."

Which really means, we have no clue, who wrote what.

Alethia:

"When Jesus had his dialog with the Canaanite woman he was saying to her tongue and cheek,"

By whose authority can you claim that Jesus was "tongue in cheek"? That is pure conjecture on your part.

"The Faith of a Canaanite Woman"

Nowhere in this story did I see any "tongue in cheek" dialogue. You alway want proof from everyone one else. Where is YOUR proof?

Warning Concerning Antichrists 1 John 2:18
-25
18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[c] 21I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us eternal life.

thats interesting austin- are they like the jews for jesus in america?
also concerned i can agree with you about the biased and faulty cirricula in america.

Victoria,

Luke wrote Acts, stop listening to Islamic propaganda.

ANONYMOUS- Paul invented christianity for gentiles.
No one even the most adamant christians will deny that Paul wrote all of Acts and after.

1) it requires a great stretch of credibility to presume that you are aware of the thought processes of the apostles and it is even stranger to think that Jesus(ata) was speaking "tongue in cheek".
Tha implies a knowledge of the inner workings of Jesus'(ata) thought processess also- it seems
I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL stands on it' own. to say its 'tongue in cheek' means he was being sarcastic and meant the opposite of what his words were? It seems a dishonest way to conduct a ministry.
Does that mean anything else I want to negate, ro turn opposite and can just claim it was said 'tongue in cheek'?

2) Paul never met Jesus(ata) in person. The only time paul ever met him, was in a vision and we have only his words and his writings to substantiate this.
Even stranger still, Paul couldnt even keep his own story straight even though he was the author!
ACTS 9:7 paul says the men with him heard the
voice of Jesus(ata)
ACTS22:9 paul says the men with him DID NOT hear
voice of Jesus(ata)

and in acts26:12-18 when dragged before king agrippa, paul has a THIRD CONTRADICTORY STORY
and he was the only author of all 3!

the story you have cited as "proof" occuring to ananias also happens in a conveninet
'vision' and again WE ONLY HAVE PAUL WRITING ABOUT HIMSELF.

YOU ARE RIGHT, PAUL DID CLAIM TO BE A PHARISEE- and wasnt it in matthew 23 that jesus bitterly denounced the pharisees? o you hypocrites and pharisees you whitewash the outside of the tomb but inside is all sorts of filth etc...(domething like that its from memory)

PAUL himself decided on his own that it was okay to take the message of Jesus(ata) to the gentiles and the people of the nations- at the opposition and active denouncement of the ACTUAL apostles- of which paul was never one. he was chastised by the apostles many times he writes it himself!

Paul was a persecutor of christians himslef until his miraculous conversion and we OPNLY HAVE HIS WORD(3 DIFFERENT VERSIONS OUT OF THE SAME MOUTH) THAT THIS EVER HAPPENED!

where were the disciples when paul was imprisoned?
why did jesus see fit to only send 'visions' to paul and not the apostles who lived and ate and loved with him?
paul wrote alot of his "scripture" when he was imprisoned. why didnt the apostles come to help paul?
or write to him? why didnt they associate with him?
one reason is because he was reinventing the message of Jesus(ata) by attaching pagan concepts to it-the trinity- do a google on trinity you will come up with many- the gnostics- the mazdans- hindus- egyptians- the greeks had a practice where they would take a person and heap the 'sins' of all the people on him and throw him into a taurobilium (pit) and then throw blood on him TO CLEANSE AWAY THE SINS WITH BLOOD!
does this ideA sound familiar?
kind of similar to the idea at the time popular of taking all the sins of a village and and heaping them on a goat and running the goat out of the village. where we get the term "scapegoat" from.
wouldnt it be nice if we didnt have to take personal responsibility for our actions, but could just pile them up on some unwitting creature and that pesky responsiblity could be conveniently forgotten? we never have to think or worry in the future if we do something wrong, we just load up the scapegoat and VOILA culpability free!

there are so very very many incongruities and downright major contradictions and inventions from the source of paul that i couldnt possibly begin to enumerate them.
paul just took existing pagan practices and 'christianized" them to make his task easier- which his task was a raging egomaniac jumping on a bandwagon trying to suck up some reflected glory.

for instance- in ephesus turkey it was the uncontested center of goddess worship- i think it was diana or astarte(easter) paul simply inserted
Mary(ata) as local goddess and we have 2000 years later a center of marian devotion in modern day ephesus- the pope was just there...

bsides Jesus(ata) was jewish and never heard of christos(greek) or christianity and there is no reason to believe that he would be averse to anyone becoming a jew on his account.
they were clearly special people cited and their faith is what made Jesus (grudgingly in the case of the woan) accept them.
well im tired now so ill be back later.
just a little taste and all in the cause of honesty and truth.

so now alethis i think you understand why i bridle when you always cite pauline "scriptures"
remember i told you i was not even pauline when i was a christian(later on)?
now you have the tiniest taste why.
and of course since ive posted scripture this is a ll vwery easy to verify using your own texts.
peace

For those interested in jewish-christian relations, take a look at www.tjcii.com There is an attempt to form a second jerusalem council to state that jewish believers in messiah do not have to become "christianized" and to ask for forgiveness for the past anti-semitism of the church. This council would represent every christian denomination, especially the historical churches such as the orthodox and roman catholic.
shalom

thor: don't obfuscate and get your anger under control!
The simple issue concerned the number of deaths directly attributable to the Spanish Inquisition. A subject YOU brought up not me. You however have been tapdancing around this issue ever since I put forward my question. E.,g., 'historical facts', 'too busy to waste my time,'don't play dumb w/me'etc.,etc.,.Recent research has dated Wii Durant's work. I seem to recall reading his and his wife's work back in the 50s/60s/. That doesn't make him wrong of course but new stuff makes it a litlle dated. Somewhat like your ideas,don't you think?

The hardest thing in thew world to open is a closed mind.
Think about it and remember the words of the recent Pope DO NOT BE AFRAID... ( the Truth may,in your case, set you free)

Dear Friend,

Jesus used numerous occasions to illustrate that the gospel was for the entire world. He commended the Roman centurion and said, "I have not found faith like this in all Israel." When Jesus had his dialog with the Canaanite woman he was saying to her tongue and cheek, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This was to illustrate to his disciples who thought the Messiah was only for the Jewish people that the gospel was indeed for the whole world and that many Gentiles do indeed have faith. You will see in the story below that the woman’s faith is highlighted and rewarded. In addition to this the Apostle Paul (Saul) who was a Jew and a Pharisee was sent by Jesus to the Gentiles to become the apostle to the Gentles. The passage at the bottom of the page illustrates this truth. So you see you are not correct in your assertion that Jesus only loves Jewish people.

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; and taking food, he was strengthened (Acts 9:10-19).

In Jesus' Love,

Alethia

"For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The General - you really have to be kidding. A college class is the last place anyone is going to get the truth about the Koran. Hearing the politically correct version of history and the lie that Islam is "Abrahamic" "just like" Christianity and Judaism is a trip down fantasy highway. The key facts that any infidel needs to know is that it is not chronological, it contradicts itself and the Bible, the peaceful verses are abrogated and replaced by the violent ones. Also, most Muslims worldwide are illiterate so even they don't read the Koran or they read it in Arabic a language they don't understand. Altheia understands Islam and the Koran 1000 times better than you ever will. If you really knew anything about it you would try to refute her accurate commentary.

I still have this very honest question that nobody seems to know the answer to. Jesus said "I was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He also refused to help cure a woman't daughter because she was not from the house of Israel. At the end, he did it because the women was so distraught. The question is, if Jesus rejected non-Jews in his time, why do you people still think that christianity is not a man-made religion and why you follow Jesus even though his teachings were not universal and not inclusive? It really is an honest question. I don't think that Jesus himself knows of such a thing as "christianity". In the matter of fact, he never heared that word in his life, nor the word Jesus (his name is Isu in Hebrew), nor did he hear the word christ!!!

Am I misinformed or you just follow your ancestors?

Thanks for any reply.

Pakistan Christians get 15 years for blasphemy
AFP

November 27, 2006

FAISALABAD, Pakistan -- A Pakistani court has sentenced two Christians to 15 years of hard labor on charges of desecrating the Koran under the country's tough blasphemy laws, officials said Monday.

James Masih, 25, and Boota Masih, 60, were found guilty of burning pages of the Muslim holy book, Judge Mohammad Aslam said in a verdict Saturday after a trial in the industrial city of Faisalabad.

Both men, who are not related, were also fined 25,000 rupees ($416), court officials said.

"Scores of people gave evidence against the convicts," said police officer Mian Mian Muhammad Akram, adding that a member of the local council in the city's Nishatabad neighborhood had lodged the case against them.

"We saved their lives from an angry mob of Muslims who wanted to kill them, and took them into custody," senior police officer Sarfraz Falki added.

The Christian community would challenge the verdict, Christian provincial legislator Pervez Rafiq said.

Desecrating the Koran is punishable by death under the blasphemy laws of overwhelmingly Muslim Pakistan, although no one has ever been executed for the crime.

Christians, who make up less than 3 percent of Pakistan's population of 150 million, say that the blasphemy laws are used as an excuse to victimize them.

In June this year two Islamic clerics stabbed to death a Muslim man in the nearby town of Muzaffargarh when police brought him to court to face charges that he abused Allah and the Prophet Mohammed during a brawl.

Dear Alethia,

if your are going to post passages from the Koran please read the WHOLE thing .Maybe you do this and just dont understand the Quran is extremly complex and maybe you just dont understand or maybe you just copy and paste things off of the net . What im trying to say is unless you have read the koran or have taken a college class on Islam please remember what you are saying is a opinion not fact. You cant argue with someone using bais information you got from the internet .

The General

Dear Zahir,

By the way, I do not mean that Christians are polytheists they are not. We believe in three persons who are one God. Muhammad considered it polytheism to believe in the Trinity.

In Jesus,

Alethia

Dear Zahir,

Prove that Muhammad is speaking figuratively. Daniel Pearl knows it is not figurative. Christians believe in the Trinity and, therefore, are considered polytheists so this is incorrect Zahir.

P.S.- just to point out another misinterpretation made by Alethia quoting:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off” (Qur’an 8:12).
Infidels? not Jews and Christians...no we love them. He was speaking of the polytheistic followers in his community who prayed to inanimate wooden idols. As far as the finger-tip and neck smiting, he could be referring to the idols. I know he did knock them over and break them. I hope you guys see how easy it is for things to be misconstrued .

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Dear Victoria,

I am sorry I put your name at the top of one of my posts. I did not do it on purpose. Can you forgive me?

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

Hello Thor,

Thanks for trying to help me but my earthy life is good. Eternal life is not only duration of life but quality of life now and for the rest of eternity.

In Jesus" Grace and Mercy,

Alethia

Dear Zahir,

The following verses are an attack on Jesus Christ and those who believe He is the Son of God.

Koranic Verses in Referring to Judaism and Christianity

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Dear Zahir,

I hope you are doing well and are in good health. I notice that you have not refuted anything that I have said. Instead you have compared me to Hitler and Stalin. Nice try, ad hominine attacks will not work. I have not said an unkind thing to anyone on this site. I have merely pointed out the truth about Muhammad and the nature of Islam. This has all come from a sincere heart of love for God and my fellow humans. Refute what I have said and I will post a retraction with an apology. I have made this offer numerous times but all I have received is name calling and dodging of the questions. Comparing me to Hitler and Stalin may be dramatic because they were bad guys but it does not prove one thing that I have said false.

Jesus openly pointed out people who perverted the way of God. He said they were "broods of vipers" and “white washed tombs” (Matthew 23:1-36).” He told the truth about works based false religion and those who thought they were righteous by keeping religious rituals. Muhammad in the Qur'an took direct shots at the character of Jesus Christ the Son of God (John 3:16). The central theme of the Bible is that God would send the Messiah born of a woman (Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 9:6). That the Messiah would be God in the flesh (Isaiah 9:6). That He would be pierced for our sins (Isaiah 53:1-12). That He would rise again from the dead. Muhammad said none of these things were true. This is a direct insult to God and an attack on the Holy Scriptures given to mankind by God. I have documented everything I have said on this site.

In Jesus’ Love and Truth,

Alethia

"Gaby :

To Zahir:

"It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception"

But take confort in the fact that some of us at least TRY to be fair."

As long as the "nice" Moslems, ie the ones that do not strap explosives arounf their belts and murder innocents indicriminately all over the planet, do not condemn in the starkest terms, in fact EXCOMMONICATE the Murderers that obviously have given them a very bad name, there is no hope for them.

Fair Enough?

To Zahir:

"It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception"

But take confort in the fact that some of us at least TRY to be fair.

Alethia,

I recommend reading JD Crossan's The Historical Jesus where he separates the truth from the embellishments in the NT. e.g.; John 14:6

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me",

was not said by the historic Jesus but was a later addition by some well-meaning scribe .210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12 , see http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

oh and this victoria being a man thing is
the most paranoid and irrational statement ever. That was so random I was laughing at such a wild accusation, but it just proves your ignorance to a POSSIBLITY of goodness in Islam.

cheers to high character victoria

THOR
i choose to have suspicions that your intentions are good- i asked God to lead me to worship Him the way that He wanted me to, eve if it wasnt the form that i was comfortable with---
and i taped it to my refrigerator and prayed about it maybe i think 2 ish years.

it wasnt what was WRONG with christianity but what is RIGHT with islam

islam has enhanced my christian inner child
a salaamu alaikum

i think 8 out of 10 things said in this blog are false

STOP POINTING FINGERS

nobody is getting anywhere.
understand that Islam is a peaceful religion and if a Muslim does not believe in Jesus and his message of peace, he is not Islamic.

Now the hateful and arrogant religion you see on TV read in the news and hear rediculous fabrications of, is not islam. That's propagated crap, and to believe it is representative of the religion is just naive. I don't let Columbine reflect my judgement of Christianity, let alone thousands of other occurences that OBVIOUSLY are a poor index to what people associate it with. It's a scapegoat, and we are not idiots, we fall for it because WE WANT TO...and that just concerns more personal issues

Alethia, dont even mention Jesus when you speak, your behavior is so repulsively opposite to what he preached its almost humorous. be humble, maybe you dont know everything, and realize you dont have control over anyone here so stop trying to brainwash them, like Hitler, or Stalin, or bin Laden and other insecure and neglected people. Try modesty and humility, it may take you places

Nobody in this blog that continuously accuses Islam can do so justifiably. Isnt it ironic how similar their own ignorance is to the people they are so hateful towards. YOUR RESEARCH/OBSERVATIONS AND STUDIES are so partial and subjective I can't imagine such narrowmindedness can prove yourself otherwise. You're out to get Muslims and your personal vendetta only blinds yourself. Take a page out of the prophet's book (any of them actually), and trying being nonjudgmental for a whole day. It's really quite eye-opening how unfair we all are, and I'm no exception

use your intellect

id like to answer thor, but you made a bad accusation of me and
now im afraid of your intentions.

but peace still

" victoria :..
When I became muslim over 7 years ago (i was a praciticing franciscan catholic and became muslim through prayer"

I was never catholic nor was I fond of their antics, but I like the Fransiscan branch.

What was wrong with it, that made you convert to Islam?

PS I once had a professor from S Korea that got a fellowship from his country, picked up wife and two kids and worked with me for a full year, in 1995. He converted from his original Buddhism to being a very active, practicing Christian (protestant of some sort)

He would ask me if i worked at night or during the day, and when I replied that I am not a night person, I work when the Sun shines and sleep when it's dark, he .. praised my habit because Jesus allegedly did so too.

I laughed at his comparison, and told him jesus did not have much of a choice... electric lights would not be invented for another 1,800+ years!

" victoria :it is funny and synchronistic that i just made a post on the coomon ground readr site about the 72 virgins myth."

Oh, so you too say it is a myth, eh?

Note to myself. Drop that conversion to islam seminar. These used car salesmen are at it again!

"Alethia :

Hello Thor,"

Hi there, Hope you are well.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

jesus is entitled to his opinion. To me, an AGNOSTIC, there is no proof of the existence of the "Father", and jesus is a HUMAN, perhaps the best Human that ever lived, but a HUMAN nonetheless. The rest is BELIEF, not Fact. And you can believe in anything you want. it's a free country.

"Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar"

this is not a matter of truth or lie. It is a FIGURE OF SPEECH for Gawd's sakes.

". His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way."

No they do not! His martyrdom proves that humans are savages. His allleged resurrection is NOT a FACT.

"If you turn to Him you will have new life."

I'm pretty happy with the life I have so far. I'm only sorry it will end by Nov 21, 2076, around 3 PM.

" God bless you Thor."

Thor bless you too. (you know THor was a God too, don't you. I was born on his day too.. Thur's day)

Lighten up, Alethia, and try to enjoy your eartly life. That's all there is. And there is no Justice either...

"Alethia :

Hello Thor,"

Hi there, Hope you are well.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

jesus is entitled to his opinion. To me, an AGNOSTIC, there is no proof of the existence of the "Father", and jesus is a HUMAN, perhaps the best Human that ever lived, but a HUMAN nonetheless. The rest is BELIEF, not Fact. And you can believe in anything you want. it's a free country.

"Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar"

this is not a matter of truth or lie. It is a FIGURE OF SPEECH for Gawd's sakes.

". His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way."

No they do not! His martyrdom proves that humans are savages. His allleged resurrection is NOT a FACT.

"If you turn to Him you will have new life."

I'm pretty happy with the life I have so far. I'm only sorry it will end by Nov 21, 2076, around 3 PM.

" God bless you Thor."

Thor bless you too. (you know THor was a God too, don't you. I was born on his day too.. Thur's day)

Lighten up, Alethia, and try to enjoy your eartly life. That's all there is. And there is no Justice either...

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Hello Thor,

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

Either Jesus is the only way or He is a liar. His death, burial, and resurrection prove that He is the only way. He is the only one who paid our debt of death for sin. He is the only one who conquered death for us by rising from the dead. If you turn to Him you will have new life. God bless you Thor.

In Jesus' Loving Arms,

Alethia

I JUST READ THORS remarks and for the record concern was stating alethia was banned and she was his friend and my very public response was for him to relay to her my peace.

it is funny and synchronistic that i just made a post on the coomon ground readr site about the 72 virgins myth.

ALETHIA FOR THE 6TH TIME I DONT WANT TO BE RUDE
PLEASE STOP HOUNDING ME.

PEACE PEOPLES

" Alethia :

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion."

There are no false religions. All religions are arbitrary. This is like some psychic crook on TV saying "I am the only real psychic, all others are charlatans". Jay Leno made huge fun of that AD (it did appear on TV a few years ago)

The problem with ISlam, and not just in the 7th century beginings but TO THIS DAY is the murderous behavior of its practitioners.

This is the problem WE the non-islamists have with Islam, BUT Islam's own followers have a much bigger problem, which is obvious if you look at their dismal standard of living DESPITE the Trillions of $ of oil "allah" put under their soil.

OBVIOUSLY, Islam utterly failed to help its practitioners PROSPER here in THIS Life. So they lull them with false promises of 72 virgins after death, stuff that even 4 year olds dismiss as silly BS.

" Alethia :

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion."

There are no false religions. All religions are arbitrary. This is like some psychic crook on TV saying "I am the only real psychic, all others are charlatans". Jay Leno made huge fun of that AD (it did appear on TV a few years ago)

The problem with ISlam, and not just in the 7th century beginings but TO THIS DAY is the murderous behavior of its practitioners.

This is the problem WE the non-islamists have with Islam, BUT Islam's own followers have a much bigger problem, which is obvious if you look at their dismal standard of living DESPITE the Trillions of $ of oil "allah" put under their soil.

OBVIOUSLY, Islam utterly failed to help its practitioners PROSPER here in THIS Life. So they lull them with false promises of 72 virgins after death, stuff that even 4 year olds dismiss as silly BS.

" Michael J. :

..Islam has many faces (religions or denominations). It fights within itself; call each other infidels; and many of the fights are bloody. How will becoming Muslim bring peace?"

When people live on $2 a day in the Gaza strip (while Arafat's (Christian, BTW), widow Suha, the one that clueless Hillary "Rodham" (LOL) Clinton embraced in public, lives high on the hog in Paris and spends more than one million US $ a MONTH)

THeir life will be very cheap and expendable.

Where are the multi-billionaire Arab so-called "brothers" of these Palestinians in Saudi Arabia? Even in the tiny EMirates, the "Emir" needs THREE Jumbo Jets to carry his harem and all his staff to his vacation palaces in Spain and the Islands near spain.

Why don't they invest their excess tens of billions in GAZA? If they did, there would be no more suicide murderers.

Why does the USA have to be the sponsor and the funder of every marshall plan around the world? We have a budget deficit and a huge national debt, whbile the so-called "brothers" of the palestinians, the degenerate Emirs, are rolling literally in hundreds of billions of $ Every year oil revenues.

Where is THEIR compassion a la Curan?

Hello Victoria,

Of course I am trying to show you that Islam is a false religion. I have never hidden that truth. That is not the issue however. The issue is whether or not that case that has been built is true. Stop worrying about my motives and weigh the evidence. Although, I will tell you that my motive is care for you and all others who are held captive by Islam.

In Jesus Emancipating Love,

Alethia

Jesus Said:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed” (Luke 4:18).

To Concerned the Christian:

I like that. And it makes a lot of sense.

As long as there is organized religion where people trust whatever their Pope, Preacher, Imam, etc. spews forth, there can not be common ground. When it comes to faith most people don't question, they follow. Their faith is not open to discussion because they have been brainwashed into believing they hold the key to eternal life. But that alone is not enough for the religious zealots, they also believe that everyone has to be forced into their believe system. Whether it's done in the style of Alethia who professes that she is concerned for our souls, or in the style of extremists who say it's my way or no way. One is as repulsive as the other.

ALETHIA- I had suspicons that you were using your questions to frame islam in a bad light and not in the interest of honest query, since you obviously have the capacity to find information that fits in with your preconceived ideas,refrain from asking me any further questions, as i am busy and the time ive taken to honor your requests was repaod with unkindness and casting aspersions on my religion.
please, in peace, let us agree to disagree.
im afraid your posts frighten me with their vehemence, and im skipping over them.
Any communication that degenerates into angeor slander to anyone- i stop reading immediately- so save yourself effort on my behalf.

I will respnd only to kindness in the future and good intentions.

THOR- you gave me a chuckle.at first. but the mean insult has resulted in me now ---o forget it - peace to you too.

What I find so astounding in most of the blogs which portray Islam as a "friendly" religion is that even fellow-Islamistists don't even recognize each other as legitimate. If they think that a global conversion to Islam will bring ultimate peace to the world, look what is happening in Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc. Shi'a against Sunni against Sufi against Ahmaddiya, and this list can go on and one with the many interpretations of each. One imam against another. Islam has many faces (religions or denominations). It fights within itself; call each other infidels; and many of the fights are bloody. How will becoming Muslim bring peace?

An important consideration that I constantly note on religious blogs is, as per Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary Christian theologian, God does not know the Future. From his book, Church: The Human Story of God, "Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And if God does not know the future, Mohammed, Jesus and Isaiah surely did not.

In two sentences of profound common sense, Schillibeeckx has reduced the OT, NT and Koran to typically good but wishful thinking of many ancient scribes.

This falls correctly in line with two of God's greatest dependent gifts, i.e. Free Will and Future.

Pause and think about it!!!

Thor:

My sense of humor is fine when something is humorous. But, agreed. I wish all of you could refrain from personal attacks below the belt.

As far as Victor(ia) is concerned, I am well aware that people use monikers and often pretent to be who they are not. However, as long as I do not have any prove of malignant behavior, why should I doubt what the posts say. If I did, there would be no point in loggin on in the first place.

As for Alethia, I have concluded by her numerous posts that she is a Christian Zealot who'd like to convert the world to her kind of faith. She scares me.

Hello Victoria,

The following is more from the same article. Note that this is the biggest Mosgue in Kabul. I guess it is the minority who have "highjacked Islam" in Kabul.

At Friday prayers in mosques across the Afghan capital, the case of Abdul Rahman and the consequent international outcry is the hot topic of discussion and the centrepiece of sermons.

"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.

"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."

Public mood

The issue has not reached the stage of street protests, as was the case recently during demonstrations against the publication in the West of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.

But there is little doubt that feelings run deep and can easily be inflamed.

Worshippers at the Pulakasthy mosque in Kabul
The mood among worshippers in Kabul is hardening

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."

Few were willing to listen to the growing condemnation in the West.

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.

That cuts no ice with Mr Qadir.

"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."

Western backers of the Afghan government are pressing to create a country that is a moderate and progressive democracy, able to turn its back on its Taleban past.

But analysts say they often forget that Afghanistan is a deeply conservative country rooted in tribal traditions.

"This is a Muslim country. The state is Muslim, people are Muslim 99%," says Judge Ansarullah.