Non-Believers and Thanksgiving

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Thanksgiving is DEFINITELY a religious holiday.

Regards,
Tim (Pastor of the Church of turkey-loving football fans who love a day off of work)

How could we take seriously anyone who never doubted?

I'm amazed at how a simple celebration of an event that happened centuries ago has been twisted into something religious. Thanksgiving is a celebration on the coming together of different cultures with a harvest meal. The pilgrims came to America to escape religious oppression and was starving when Native Americans helped them by providing needed food. So where did all this religious debate come from. I'm sure the pilgrims viewed this occurrence as a God sent event.
Who to give thanks to? God, or whomever you see or don't see as a Higher Being, your mother, etc for going to the store and preparing it, the farmer for working long hours to grow the food, nature, earth, life in general for being here to enjoy it.
Sorry, Moral Majority, but everything is not about you. Set your egos aside and just enjoy a day with your family and give thanks to whomever or whatever pleases you and leave everyone else to do the same.

"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense." Carl Sagan

The U.S. Congress defiles the Constitution every time it opens with a prayer.

Yet, the idea that this is a Christian nation, or a Judeo-Christian nation, is itself obscene, so by all means let the Congress add to the defilement by allowing every other religious faith to open sessions with their prayers, if only to demonstrate the lie in the claim that this is an inherently Christian or JudeoChristian or biblical or theist nation state.

I oppose this establishment of religion (a sanctioned prayer by anyone), but if we must have it, let the dominant fundamentalist Christian religionists feel a small part of the pain that the rest of us feel any time ANY prayer is offered with government sanction.

Here's to Hindu and every other kind of prayer... may it help us all understand soon the obscenity and absurdity of any government established or sanctioned religion.

Meery meet indeed!

I hope your Lughnasadh was filled with a rich harvest of family and other loved ones!

Happy Lammas!

This is a day of thanks for the Harvest...our first Harvest...we have three.

Lepi, PP, Wiccan...all...Many Blessings on this day.

terra

I am a Christian. Either all religions should be allowed to offer prayers or blessings in the House, Senate and other Government settings, or there should be no prayer at all. Anything else violates everything this country stands for. If prayer continues, the question becomes "What is a religion?" I sure don't have the answer to that one!

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Bitner :
"Ah, but Gabby, who are you giving thanks to? If you express gratitude, there is a recipient of that thanks, which is why I said that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday."

Our table grace for every meal consists in thanking the earth and sun for giving life to the plants and animals we eat, thanking the plants and animals for the continuance of our lives that their deaths will ensure, thanking the people who raised and prepared the food, and thanking others at the table for their company in sharing the meal with us. Obviously, not all of these entities can be addressed individually, but nonetheless, being thankful for them does not necessarily mandate a divine source for them. My theist AND atheist friends and family find that they are able to participate in our grace without feeling hypocritical.

I am used to Pope John Paul's approach which (at least in his later years) was more unifying across religions. Anyone who thinks there is only one path to God - 'X' Religion - has got it all wrong - its not about Religion.

I am used to Pope John Paul's approach which (at least in his later years) was more unifying across religions. Anyone who thinks there is only one path to God - 'X' Religion - has got it all wrong - its not about Religion.

Bittner:

You give thank to nature!

I think if people knew more about the history of this country, they would have a much clearer view of "Thanksgving." Like Neil said about the 4th of July, Thanksgiving as we think we know it is a myth. And early settlers of this country were fighting about faith back then, too. We have romanticized this period of our country to fit our insecure needs and justify all the things we may have done wrong.
I don't see why you have to belong to a church, a faith of any kind or even believe in God to be thankful. That sure would be arrogant (and gasp, Un-Christian!). Oh wait, that is kind of how most Americans are so maybe that works...(sarcasm, people, sarcasm).

Thanksgiving may have a religious origin, and many do celebrate it in a religious way today. However there's nothing wrong for the non-religious to take this idea and use it to the fullest for their own purpose. Thankfulness is not an exclusive trait of religion or Christianity. Does anyone honestly believe God is the only one you could, or should, thank? Give some credits to the fellow humans that made your and our lives easier.

Why not? Religion has nothing to do with it.

Why should the Catholic Church use the state's language in its rituals when the state rejects prayer and God in its rituals?

I though we learned from Poland that the church is the only institution the people have when government wrongly imposes its will upon the governed. Of course, we are now in month number of nine of a majority of Americans favoring immediate withdrawal from Iraq, but that's different, according to all the politicians.

Ah, but Gabby, who are you giving thanks to? If you express gratitude, there is a recipient of that thanks, which is why I said that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. However, it's not a Christian holiday.

Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday. Someone just infused religion into it.

Actually it's a holiday where you give thanks for the years harvest. Anyone can do that!

Is Thanksgiving a religious holiday? Sure. Is it strictly a Christian holiday? No. Do you really suppose that the Native Americans present at the first Thanksgiving were giving thanks to Yahweh? I doubt it. And anyone, from any faith or none, may show gratitude for what they have.

Yes, non believe can celebrate thanksgiving. Why not? For instance, this past thankgiving we had several friends over. I bought the turkey and the ham. I bought the sweet potatoes, the white potatoes, the green beans, and the rest of the fixings. I made the pumpkin pie. I roasted the turkey. In short, from beginning to end, I prepared a feast that everyone enjoyed. When it was over they all gave their thanks to me. We didn't need an invisible man in the sky, nor some hokey myths about pilgrims and indians. We just enjoyed each others company and a good meal.
So next thanksgiving, honor your mythical god, if you will, and have your sweet little re-written historical scenarios of pilgrims in funny hats. But give thanks to the person or persons who made the meal before you possible.
As for the pagan/christian discussion, I know a lot of pagans, although I myself am not one. They are all, without exception, fine people who can share my table any time they wish. I also know a lot of people who claim to be christians. Many of them are also fine decent people. But many of them are lying, backstabbing, greedy people. The botton line is that religion doesn't make a person what he is. A person is either good or bad to begin with. Add religion to their lives and they are merely good or bad people who subscribe to a a religion. Nothing more. The christians Jesus is alledged to have said that we will know people by their fruits. Judging from the "fruit" is see from many christians I have little choice but to presume that the tree has some serious problems.
Just my two cents worth. Take it for what you will. Save your flames as I don't make it a habit to check back and see what responses may have been generated by my words.
And yes, I would vote for a pagan were one running for office. But I hesitate anymore to vote for anyone who plays the Jesus card in his attempt to get elected. After 6+ years of Bush & Co I've learned something.

You know what?

I think thanksgiving is a time for coming together and being thankful for everything that we have, regardless of what faith we are. Be thankful that you can practice that faith, even you christians!

Non christians have family, friends, and lives to be thankful for too. Its not your holiday.

For John 2:16. I was a Catholic. I am a Catholic. I am a mature Catholic. I believe. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit works through God's Church. So ... I guess my vote cancels out your's.

For John 2:16. I was a Catholic. I am a Catholic. I am a mature Catholic. I believe. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit works through God's Church. So ... I guess my vote cancels out your's.

For John 2:16. I was a Catholic. I am a Catholic. I am a mature Catholic. I believe. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit works through God's Church. So ... I guess my vote cancels out your's.

I am a Pagan. I was a Catholic. That was enuff to make anyone not believe.

July 4th isn't a religious holiday- it celebrates the birth myth of the United States. Rather than giving thanks to an alleged supernatural being, we should give thanks to the native Americans who made one of the greatest strategic blunders of all time.

If they had not helped the pilgrims they could have staved off the ensuing european invasion for some time to come. It would have been just a reprieve, but who knows how it might have worked out.

I guess Christians can argue that their supernatural being was tougher and more ruthless than the native american supernatural being(s).

Funnily enough, these gods seem to follow Darwinian principles!

The only reason why people believe in God is that they have a need to immortalize themselves. The foundation for all religions is faith. The problem is, is that if something is true, you do not need to have faith in it. Religion is the problem, not the answer. It is the cause of all wars. It is why we live in such peril today. To believe in such "non-sense", you have to overlook every single obvious facet of reality. THe Bible is written in a way that cannot be understood. It is vague and can be iterpreted in many different ways. That is why there is so many religions. It makes no sense at all. If there was a book that was supposed to have a set of rules for a society, it would not have to be interpreted.It would have to be exact. There is such a book. but the bible is not it.

I belive in the virtue of FAITH.
Beliving in something without proof.
Yes I belive.

Like most american traditions tainted by religion, the original meaning has long since been lost. Still plenty of good comes from celebrating though; families get together, people spend tons of cash, good football games, etc. etc. Even without religion, it's a great holiday for all. Turkey ROCKS!!!!

In response to Finster:

God's love is so much more complex than most people think. But to back up some, it's simple in that God does love everyone - but that doesn't mean God can be with them. Because man is born into sin, they are separated from God. God's holiness restricts him from even being in the presence of sin. For those who do not accept his grace through the sacrifice of Jesus, they are still separated from him. Hell is not punishment in the form of intentionally hurting people, but rather the absence of being with God. God is forced to separate them from him and in such a place, there can be no good. Evil takes control and that might be the point where a punishment of more than just separation begins.

In response to Finster:

God's love is so much more complex than most people think. But to back up some, it's simple in that God does love everyone - but that doesn't mean God can be with them. Because man is born into sin, they are separated from God. God's holiness restricts him from even being in the presence of sin. For those who do not accept his grace through the sacrifice of Jesus, they are still separated from him. Hell is not punishment in the form of intentionally hurting people, but rather the absence of being with God. God is forced to separate them from him and in such a place, there can be no good. Evil takes control and that might be the point where a punishment of more than just separation begins.

Well, when a "believer" tells me I will be in hell, I take it as a compliment...because if said person is in heaven, for me to join them there would be for me, by definition, hell.

I associate with a Christain faith but I do not believe in heaven or hell. Nor do I believe that a truly all-loving God would "doom" someone to a hell or "reward" others with a heaven.

I don't feel that someone has to be of the Christian faith to receive the love of God.

Jesus was God's best representative on earth and his message was love, respecting all people, harming no one, just love. I believe that is God's message.

No heaven, no hell, no god, no devil. If there were a god, does it have an ego? Does it need to be worshipped? Will it send one to hell for doing something it knew one would do? Can there really be something with horns, hooves, & a tail waiting for bad boys & girls? Religion was created to control the mindless masses & for politicians to have something they claim to have in common with the same. Claptrap extorting tithes from the gullible & fearful.

Christian, Catholic, Mormon, etc... It's not the religion, it's what you choose to believe. I'm personally a Christian, but I believe God knows everybody's heart! I also believe that the Bible teaches wonderful lessons, but I do not go to church, I do not force my beliefs and I am content with that. People who think Christians are "Arrogant" should take a look at them selves before making such a statement that stereotypes us.

Is there a Heaven or Hell? I believe that there is something after life and that it's good. It's not up to anybody to decide who should experience it and who shouldn't. Me personally; I'd rather go through life having something more to believe in that is based on good character and morals. That doesn't make me arrogant, that makes me hopeful and happy!

I'd much rather believe and be right than not believe and be wrong!

Christian, Catholic, Mormon, etc... It's not the religion, it's what you choose to believe. I'm personally a Christian, but I believe God knows everybody's heart! I also believe that the Bible teaches wonderful lessons, but I do not go to church, I do not force my beliefs and I am content with that. People who think Christians are "Arrogant" should take a look at them selves before making such a statement that stereotypes us.

Is there a Heaven or Hell? I believe that there is something after life and that it's good. It's not up to anybody to decide who should experience it and who shouldn't. Me personally; I'd rather go through life having something more to believe in that is based on good character and morals. That doesn't make me arrogant, that makes me hopeful and happy!

I'd much rather believe and be right than not believe and be wrong!

As an anti-religious person who believes in God (yes, there are such people), I think that Heaven and Hell are right here on Earth. It is up to us to choose (by our deeds) where we choose to be.

As an anti-religious person who believes in God (yes, there are such people), I think that Heaven and Hell are right here on Earth. It is up to us to choose (by our deeds) where we choose to be.

As an anti-religious person who believes in God (yes, there are such people), I think that Heaven and Hell are right here on Earth. It is up to us to choose (by our deeds) where we choose to be.

Only those infected with religion would be so arrogant as to assume they can control a secular holiday. Your feeble attempts at mind control will get you nowhere.

Only those infected with religion would be so arrogant as to assume they can control a secular holiday. Your feeble attempts at mind control will get you nowhere.

I assume that the tern "non-believer" in the question refers to non-Christians.
One need not be Christian to be grateful for the good things in life. In fact, it is possible to experience gratitude without the necessity for a belief in any sort of deity.
My parents are Christian, I am an eclectic pagan, my husband practices an Eastern faith known as Mahikari, some aspects of which I have integrated into my own path, and my daughter is agnostic. When we share a meal, we use the following table graced, which all of us find we can agree on:
We partake of this food with gratitude for all the blessings of heaven and earth,
for the efforts of those who have prepared it,
and for those with whom we share it.
For each of us, the term "blessings of heaven and earth" means something different. For my parents, it's the Judeo-Christian God who provided manna in the wilderness, for me, it's the living euniverse from which all life comes, for my husband it's the Creator god as well as the lesser god who specifically governs the material aspects of the world, and for my daughter, it's the sunshine, the rain, and the dirt which contributied to the growth of the plants and animals which make up our meals. We don't all have to have the same beliefs to be grateful for what we have.

m689k

Yes, we should thank the Founding Fathers, who understood so well the self-serving mischief done in the name of God, for creating a system that, so far at least, has kept the Christians safely contained.

Of course it is a "religious" holiday. The original reason of celebrating Thanskgiving was to Give thanks to God (The Creator God) for the many blessings that were given to those who sacrificed for the freedom to worship as they pleased. So even if you are an atheist, you should be thankful that you have a choice in this country to be that and not be persecuted by the government.

Yes! Of course atheists and agnostics should give thanks and celebrate thanksgiving. The problem isn't that they give thanks, it's that they don't know Who to thank! If they stop giving thanks they will hardly come to know Him better. You don't solve one problem by causing another.

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DWB - Though I am not all-knowing when it comes to religion, I don't remember Jesus asking the blind man if he believed in God prior to granting him sight.

You see, I got the impression that Jesus just loved, and he loved with out strings.

With regard to our Nation's leaders- rightly so we should elect those who can be moral and just in their leadership. But faith alone does not determine that. Many wars start because of religions including the Christian faith, and I've known religious persons who committed crimes and sin, just as non-religious, or non Christians have.

I think your stereotype is very small minded. Wasn't it Jesus that reminded those who were about to stone the prostitute to think twice, and evaluate themselves before they judge another?

"DWB :
It always amazes me that the citizens of our Great Nation - The United States of America - rely on what candidates say. If they would just do a little research they would find the true character of each candidate. Their personal views on most political topics would be mirrored by their voting history. Their Christian beliefs would be self-evident. Or their lack there of. AND NO POLITICAL CANDIDATE SHOULD BE ELECTED UNLESS THEY ARE OF CHRISTIAN FAITH!

The United States was founded on Christian beliefs. How could anyone uphold our great Constitution if they do not understand the foundation in which it was built upon. Just look at our legal system that is full of Liberals, Atheists and Opportunists. If we had Christian leaders when most of these judges were appointed (to Lifetime postitions) we would not be in this situation. A moral and ethical demise.

God Bless The United States of America!"

Gosh, DWB, guess that little item in the First Amendment about not establishing a state religion was just a brain fart from our Founding Fathers? Does this mean the pogroms and burnings should start again? Should I stock up on aloe?

Excuse me. Faith is only one factor. You are free to vote on whether a candidate agrees with your religious views or not. Thank God most people don't use that as the one and only criteria. I'll say it one more time: 30% will vote right if Alan Ginsberg was to run Republican. 30% would vote Democrat if they ran Adolf Hitler. It's us folks in the middle the make the difference. We don't presume to use the religious litmus test as our defining factor. I think this is what really pisses off the religious right. Keep working on it though. You are free to do that in America, even if it's a pretty limited way to pick leadership. Has it worked for you so far? Your boy Bush ....

It always amazes me that the citizens of our Great Nation - The United States of America - rely on what candidates say. If they would just do a little research they would find the true character of each candidate. Their personal views on most political topics would be mirrored by their voting history. Their Christian beliefs would be self-evident. Or their lack there of. AND NO POLITICAL CANDIDATE SHOULD BE ELECTED UNLESS THEY ARE OF CHRISTIAN FAITH!

The United States was founded on Christian beliefs. How could anyone uphold our great Constitution if they do not understand the foundation in which it was built upon. Just look at our legal system that is full of Liberals, Atheists and Opportunists. If we had Christian leaders when most of these judges were appointed (to Lifetime postitions) we would not be in this situation. A moral and ethical demise.

God Bless The United States of America!

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A true Christian or Jew cannot practice yoga or meditation and still claim he or she serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or the triun God(God the father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Ghost). The only meditation Christians and Jews are allowed to do is on the laws of God in the Bible. Yoga and meditations open up spiritual access for entry of contrary spirits or demons. With true knowledge that Moslems use witch doctors to make voodoo, I see no prohibition for Moslems to engage in yoga and meditations.

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Since religious faith is based on no evidence whatsoever, I truly wish that it were not a basis for public policy. Faith is belief without evidence. To set government policy based on texts that are thousands of years old and have no basis in reality and require you to believe in essentially what is an imaginary friend is folly.

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My Brother and I were very close. When he was killed in Viet Nam, I experienced the most profound grief. I cried for 9 months. I lived far from my family at the time. I quit my job and just basically cried day and night. I did not realize, nor did anyone suggest, that I needed help. At the end of that period, I found I was completely empty. Never during the experience, was I suicidal, nor have I ever been since. I just simply had no attachments to anything or anyone. I had no fears, no grief, no needs, no joy, and I also had no curiosity about this state. I have since read that this is the state of non-attachment that Monks and other spiritual seekers strive to attain.

One hot, clear August day, we visited a cemetary and I thought of all those who had died in the war. But then I thought of all the love from other people, that was associated with each gravestone. I suddenly realized that there was far, far more love, than grief and tragedy, in the world, that those headstones symbolized. Just at that moment, a feeling swept up my spine and over me life a giant ocean wave. I found myself enveloped in pure white light, and in that light was my Brother. He was perfect, whole, and at peace. We talked for what seemed like a long time. I don't remember what was said but it seemed as if an entire lifetime of our relationship had been resolved - both the past and what would have been in the future had he lived. During this time, another part of my mind was skeptical and trying to analyze what was happening. I looked down at my feet and saw that the light had a round opening at the bottom and I could see my feet still standing on the sidewalk. That image struck me very funny for some reason.

Then, it seemed as if there was nothing more to communicate between the two of us; that our relationship, our lives, had suddenly somehow been completed in the most perfect way, that defied my understanding. I felt complete peace. It was then that I chose to disengaged from our communion. I wasn't afraid to do this - it felt just right for both of us.

Then, I was out of the light and saw once again, the normal scene of my worldly surroundings before me. Immediately, my conscious mind began to rationalize away this experience, because it defied all my previous assumptions and understanding about the nature of reality. But, as I turned to leave, it was as if someone put my eyes on a headstone some distance from where I was standing, that ordinarily I would not have noticed. And on it, was the name that was my maiden name (although I doubt the person who was buried there was a relative). It felt like my Brother was still with me, reconfirming the reality of this encounter, and that he wanted to get it across to me that this experience was not the result of my imagination, or that my mind was distorted from a long period of grief, but that it was real.

After that, I determined to find out how such a thing could have happened to me, and why it did not happen to any other member of my family. I began a study of spirituality and consciousness, that persists to this day. Ever since I emerged from the light and my communion with my Brother, I was utterly healed of all grief, filled with a peace and joy which has stood the test of time. While I have missed my Brother all these years, I have had no further grief about his passing, and I know beyond any doubt, that his wounds were healed completely and that he lives on a higher plane which I will go to when I pass over, and we will be together again. This experience anchored my belief in God in a very personal way, and in the fact of everlasting life, which Christ spoke to us about.

I hope my experience will inspire others to faith, as it did to me.

Mary

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Family,

I celebrate Thanksgiving because it is a time to remember the things we enjoy and all the freedom and options we have in life. The historic reasons are too corrupt to use them. Immigrants starving to death and natives who felt the need to help them....a good human attitude.

Mauro

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ive had over 8 solid posts just disappear- i dont know what buzzwords im using, but they were all very logical biblical scripture with reasoning attached- often questions asked that could be construed as challenging, but certainly never rude in any way.
but its never happened in these open forums- only responses to panelists-

id lke to mention in defense of accusations-
exactly what news channel do you imagine is going to
broadcast moderate muslims that have anything ompelling to say about the issues of violence and the position of most muslims on it?

there are some muslim panelists on this site- go see how theyre attacked-

prejudice is an ugly thing no matter whose mouth it comes from and we should be free to express ourselves here without censure-

just kill them with kindness is what i say
peace

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peace

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Here is the deal. I am Muslim, my husband is Christian. We have a preschool aged child. His family all but ignores my faith. Never once have they wished my a happy holiday or bought my daughter a gift for a Muslim holiday. My parents have gifted my husband a gold cross, bought our child gifts on Christmas and made her an Easter basket. My mom's point: She has to know we love and accept her. PERIOD. I think when she grows up my in-laws will have a rude awakening. Children know who accepts and loves them. I just hope she does not experience too much pain from their ignorance. I just try to ignore their behavior. The challenge for me is that my holidays are never recognized in the US. I do not get days off work, there are never any displays in the mall, etc... So I try to keep with my traditions getting together with friends and making new ones as a I go along. My grandfather once said ( in response to my question about God and faith). Child God is at the top of a great mountain. All the pathways on the side of that mountain lead to Him. Everyone takes a different path to the top. I guess that explains why my mom is the way she is.....my recommendation is accept these children for who they are and do not make them choose loyalties. Extended family you must do the same or risk hurting a child....in my faith the greatest sin there is.

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One of the greatest tenets of democracy is that a superior argument will win the day. Right now, this doctrine is being turned on its head by the Islamic Fundamentalists.
These crazed murderers are not only cleaning our intellectual clocks. They are wiping the floors with our morbid brains.

These Fundamentalists have taken Islam and turned its teachings into a murderous medieval ideology – that the killing of infidels in the name of Allah will be rewarded in heaven - allowing the Islamists to sexually molest for all eternality 72 virgins, in 72 mansions, and 72 beds – that the murder of millions of non - believers is a religious duty, women are inferior to men - their virtual slaves to be denied education, beaten, killed for adultery or other sexual transgressions (real or imaged), covered from head to toe, people can be mutilated and tortured, barbers giving hair cuts can be killed, music and movies banned, women practicing folk dancing murdered, schools teaching young girls blown up, anyone who believes in a different interpretation of Islam to be killed and on and on. Muslims have paid a terrible price at the hands of these Fundamentalists. Children mutilated. Grand parents brains blown all over the street. Women, children, old and young. Over one hundred and fifty thousand Muslims have been slaughtered in the most horrid, unimaginable ways since 9/11.

Against these ridiculous crazy teachings, the Western World is intellectually collapsing – freedom of speech is collapsing. Anyone who writes or puts on a play exposing these teachings can be killed. In the face of this onslaught, moderate Muslims are being pushed to the background and running for cover. Western Governments are running for cover. Mosques are being taken over by radical Islamists from the Saudi Arabian Wahhabbi sect.

We need to form an immediate alliance with moderate Muslims to turn the intellectual tide. There can be no polite political correctness here. Tolerating - intolerance is no longer an option.

The Pope in his recent speech on God and Reason has shown the way forward. A very important event occurred recently when 36 Islamic Scholars sent the Pope a communication in which they agreed – that in Islam, Allah is – “A GOD OF REASON.” This important declaration - perhaps one of the most important by a group of such eminent Islamic scholars must be seized upon. The Pope should call for a world religious conference on the scale of Vatican 2 bringing together all the top religious leaders and scholars from EVERY world religion to draft a Universal Declaration of Religious Principles. This Declaration will form the basis of an historic alliance between Christianity and Islam to turn the murderous fundamentalist tide before it is too late. Before a nuclear weapon is exploded in the Name of Allah in a Western City killing millions.

Following would be the format of this Universal Religious Declaration.

There is only one God
God is God
God is a God of Reason.
God is not an irrational being. If God is irrational then God is not God.

Ordinary people on the street understand the words – “reason” and ‘irrational”. Any such declaration must be kept simple - not an intellectual rambling on of the Philosophy of Reason. (For a very important article on the Philosophy of Reason and Pope Benedicts controversial speech I draw your attention to article – “Socrates or Muhammad?
Joseph Ratzinger on the destiny of reason” by Lee Harris.)

God Being a God of Reason Therefore:

All violence in the Name of God/Allah is the GREATEST evil anyone can commit. Suicide is an evil act in every religion. Suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the Name of God/Allah – this is the Supreme evil act. The second most evil act is killing, maiming, and torturing others to the Greater Glory of God/Allah. The concept of Jihad as religious holy war must be condemned. Violence in religion must be totally and
completely renounced – WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. There is no heaven for these murderers. No mansions. No virgins. Just the black hole of eternal damnation. If God /Allah believes in violence then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God of Reason Therefore:

Women and men are equal in the eyes of God. Women are the equal of men. God did not create women to be the chattel or slaves of men. Females have full rights in society before the law, under the rule of law, can dress any way they freely desire without fear of death, walk the streets without a male relative escort, do any occupation, receive all educational rights, drive planes, trains, automobiles, fly to the stars, choose their husbands etc. These equal rights of women in society are very important. Their exercise without fear of violence must be declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION in any such declaration. If God/Allah is a sexist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God of Reason Therefore:

There are many ways to God/Allah. Each individual has the total and complete right to find his/her own way to God/Allah or not. Religious freedom is the right of all mankind. To practice ones religious beliefs non – violently is a corner stone of all civilized societies. It is an unimpeachable right.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore:

All human beings are created equal. All races are created equal. God/Allah does not wish that any human being be a slave. No one person is the lesser of the other. To use religion to spread hate against other races, religions in places of worship, employing television or any other medium, teaching hatred to the young in schools – this is evil incarnate. If God/Allah is a racist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore

God/Allah blessed man with an intelligence to reason, to explore, to seek the truth of any question – total freedom of thought. To think and reason without fear of jail/death. It is against the will of God/Allah to threaten anyone with death, torture or prison for freely exercising his God/Allah given brain. The human brain is the greatest gift God/Allah has ever bestowed on man. It was given to mankind to purse - the arts, literature, sciences, intellectual pursuits. Its free exercise is the will of God/Allah. Declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah is anti intellectual then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

God Being A God Of Reason Therefore

All mankind has the right to freedom and democracy, equality before the law, freedom of action, freedom of thought, right to elect their leaders. God /Allah does not want dictators and tyrants to rule over other men. NO EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah does not believe in the right of mankind to Freedom and Democracy then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.

Pope Benedict has opened the way to a great reconciliation of the world religions. A Grand Conference issuing this Universal Declaration of Religious Rights and Freedoms to be read in every Church, Synagogue, Mosque would be the start of an alliance between faiths against ALL religious extremists. A turning point in the struggle for the minds of young people especially young Muslims who are being constantly bombarded by a religious evil ideology.

Intolerance can never be tolerated in a free and democratic society. Those who refuse to accept Western democratic rights and freedoms, the teachings of a God of Reason, must be cased out into the darkness. IT’S TIME FOR TOUGH LOVE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST STYLE.

i are. panthiest take all the good from all the "religion" and bail on the bad stuff, (confession, female circumsion,etc}

Issues

Mistakes, Lies & Misconceptions
about American Indian people

The Thanksgiving Myth

Let me begin by stating that thousands of years before the 'official'
Thanksgiving Day was proclaimed by Governor Winthrop of the
Massachussetts Bay Colony in 1637, North American Indigenous
people across the continent had celebrated seasons of Thanksgiving.
'Thanksgiving' is a very ancient concept to American Indian nations.
The big problem with the American Thanksgiving holiday is its false
association with American Indian people. The infamous 'Indians and
pilgrims' myth. It is good to celebrate Thanksgiving, to be thankful
for your blessings. It is not good to distort history, to falsely portray
the origin of this holiday and lie about the truth of its actual inception.
Here are some accurate historical facts about the true origin of this
American holiday that may interest you.........................................

'Thanksgiving' did not begin as a great loving relationship between the
pilgrims and the Wampanoag, Pequot and Narragansett people. In fact,
in October of 1621 when the 'pilgrim' survivors of their first winter in
Turtle Island sat down to share the first unofficial 'Thanksgiving' meal,
the Indians who were there were not even invited! There was no turkey,
squash, cranberry sauce or pumpkin pie. A few days before this alleged
feast took place, a company of 'pilgrims' led by Miles Standish actively
sought the head of a local Indian leader, and an 11 foot high wall was
erected around the entire Plymouth settlement for the very purpose of
keeping Indians out! Officially, the holiday we know as 'Thanksgiving'
actually came into existence in the year 1637. Governor Winthrop of the
Massachussetts Bay Colony proclaimed this first official day of Thanksgiving
and feasting to celebrate the return of the colony's men who had arrived
safely from what is now Mystic, Connecticut. They had gone there to
participate in the massacre of over 700 Pequot men, women and children,
and Mr. Winthrop decided to dedicate an official day of thanksgiving
complete with a feast to 'give thanks' for their great 'victory'....

As hard as it may be to conceive, this is the actual origin of our current
Thanksgiving Day holiday. Many American Indian people these days do
not observe this holiday, for obvious reasons. I see nothing wrong with
gathering with family to give thanks to our Creator for our blessings and
sharing a meal. I do, however, hope that Americans as a whole will one
day acknowledge the true origin of this holiday, and remember the pain,
loss, and agony of the Indigenous people who suffered at the hands of
the so-called 'pilgrims'. It is my hope that children's plays about 'the
first Thanksgiving', complete with Indians and pilgrims chumming at
the dinner table, will someday be a thing of the past. Why perpetuate
a lie? Let us face the truths of the past, and give thanks that we are
learning to love one another for the rich human diversity we share.

(Written by John Two-Hawks)

ISSUES MISTAKES LIES & MISCONCEPTIONS

As usual the question posed begs a predictable response, it's tendatious, a flawed manner of thinking. The history of Thanksgiving deals with an attempt on the part of early protestants (1840's)to deminish other beliefs replacing them with a protestant holyday, this was a run up to the hate filled days of the "no nothings". Why do so few know history?

Having read the history of Thanksgiving, this is not a holiday that I am excited about celebrating. The Native Americans helped show us how to survive, welcomed us to their land, taught us how to be successful in agriculture, and gave us many of their resources. Americans on the other hand, after having a feast with them to celebrate thanks, basically wiped them out. That's why I'm not sure if this holiday is anything to give thanks to.

And starting a meal in the name of God doesn't make it a religious ceremony.

This is for PLHEART

"Name a time when Christ said anywhere in the Bible how to invest money???"

I just found a verse in Ecclesiastes 11:1, which is a teaching for us to diversify our investments.

Scripture has answers for questions on every aspect/issue of life.

Seek and you shall find.

You have to know the author to understand his words.

God bless

Whoever asked this insignificant, silly question, instead of tryign to solve the world's REAL problems, obviously have a lot of time on their hands. I do not.

Thanks for those who read my posts... No, I don't have hate toward anybody necessarily, but, on a sub-level I do fear you "Religious Rightists" a bit. "Religious Rightists" demand that I choose, their way or hell... I can't let "Religious Rightists" do that to me. So I'll be as I am, an Agnostic bordering on being an Atheist, because "Religious Rightists" have done way toooooo many things to other's on the path of life.

The pilgrims came here to get away from the state church. The government and the church were the ruling body in England. That is the purpose of seperation of church and state. The church is not the governing body and government doesn't have the right to regulate it unless it is for immoral purposes like murder of innocents like radical Islam. Most of our country's founders said that government without the authority of scripture is dead. That still does not say the church is in charge. But, we in the church should seek government offices to protect the unborn and the elderly from merciless killing.

Yes. It's a day of thanks. Thanksgiving is a tradition from Europe where it was a harvest festival. When it was brought to the US and Canada it was a havest festival where eventually people put religious beliefs into it.

This is part of a Harvest Home Blessing...this is the Wiccan Thanksgiving.

“My Lord and Lady;
Mighty Father and Mother of All

I am blessed by your gifts from the soil. They remind me that I am one with all. May I remember the blessings of the Gods in my heart, my body and in my life.”

So this is one of three harvest celebrations we have. We do not mind that you Christians borrow one.

Why is there a fight about if non believers can be thankful for the gifts they recieve? Why waste so much energy...give thanks for believers and non that share their talents and gifts to the rest of us.

Blessed be and thanks,
Lady k.

Love the posts.....Thanks ROZ and PLHEART, I'm with you all the way.

As the old saying goes "I'd rather burn in hell with friends and family then live in heaven with self rightous strangers". I'm agnostic and I'll take may chances and I'm not hedging my bets. I think I'll be alright.

What I appreciate most about reading these is to hear other people think as I do. In our society today with all the "Thank God" and religious talk today I often feel alone in my thinking drowned out by all the "You must have God in you life" talk. Particularly being African American sometimes the first thing I'm asked is what church I go to...when I say I don't I get this strange look and they ask why not then promptly invite me to their church. Drives me nuts!

please keep the discussions going regardless of the question at hand. I'm sure all those that have read the posts have learned something...if not...thats on them...they missed out!

Peace

To: Plheart
Look at all the attention you have gotten at this site. I too have been subjected to the very issues that you have been. However, though it took me many years to understand that God has always loved me and works together for good. He is still there for you. He has shown you how evil ones can come in His Name to destroy. Do not let this happen, but look at others in a new light that can bring a greater understanding of others. You are not the only one who has suffered, but you can make a difference by changing your heart and replacing it with the true love of God in your heart. You say you have read your Bible, but because of the spirit that is in you, do not understand. As the saying goes. "When we think that God has left us, Guess who moved." No one can save us from our thoughts but ourselves. Tell me, has it given you peace in your way of thinking or filled you with the hatred that the enemy loves.

I think people should give thanks everyday, not just one day a year. They may choose to thank someone of this earth or not, that is their choice. I wish polititions would just govern and stay out of religion.

What does Thanksgiving have to do with Christianity or any other religion? In the post-modern world of today, even Christmas has been secularized to the point that many people think of the 'Holiday Season' less as a time of religious adhearance than a time for gathering with family and friends. This is as it should be.

What a pointless question in a country of freedom such as the United States. Non-believers should be free to do whatever they want so long as it does no harm to others. Hopefully no one will question the believer's right to celebrate thanksgiving.

It is with Great Thanks that acknowledge Beachwoman & her gracious writing. Thankyou for the time you've taken to read my posts.
Here's hoping that your holiday's are peaceful & calm.

give me a break.

the pilgrims came to this country so they could observe religions of their choice...but it sure looks like many in the current christian community are unwilling to let other modern americans worship who or what they please, if they choose to worship anything. in a similar way, this increasingly intolerant christian community is unwilling to think that people who are not affiliated with any religion, or their specific religion, can have faith, beliefs and values.

"unwilling to think:" there in may lie the problem. so many of these so-called "people of faith" have given up any sense of reason and thinking. they are just willing to carry out the religious dictates of their most recent celebrity-type, power-hungry "ministers." (thank you, ted haggard.)

as for being thankful, one doesn't have to believe in anything to be thankful. people can be glad they were able to persevere or succeed with or without the help of anyone else or a deity. belief in oneself is more important and more productive than the possible, but highly unlikely, intervention by a deity. to borrow from the judeo-christian tradition: "god helps those that help themselves," although i am a firm believer in community helping those that need it too.

i am sick and tired of so many, especially in the christian community, trying to turn everything into a religious observance.

along the same line, i am disgusted with various so-called religious people claiming they have the one true answer, the one true religion. no wonder there are religious wars even amongst competing sects of the same religions, like the muslims.

get real: ALL religion was invented by a human being, whether intentionally, primarily to make sense of the universe, or via some moment of delusion. was it marx who said "religion is the opiate of the people"...whoever got it right.

if you want it to be "religious," fine, celebrate it your way, but PLEASE leave the rest of us alone to observe a mythical event or any event in our own way.

on thanksgiving and every holiday, let us each be thankful for whatever in our own way without religious prescription!

Thanksgiving can be whatever one wants it to be. I am a non-believer and I celebrate Thanksgiving by simply being grateful for what I have and for the many people that have helped me to have allowed me to help them and learned from doing that.

If you are religious and have the need to celebrate the day with your religious beliefs included into that day so be it.

PLHEART - I have read all of your posts and understand where you are coming from as I am much like you. My childhood was not "quite" as horrific as yours but none the less much like yours. I also had "believing" parents.

I feel the "Religious Rightists" as you call them live in a fairy tale world with a fairy tale book. I feel they are in some state of denial. I was never permitted to be in "that" denial. Actually I was never a child. So the bible to me is the same as Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and Easter Bunny. If you are raised in an alcoholic, abusive home there are no fairy tales of any kind. Reality is there from day one. No I am no longer angry about my childhood, however, I am angry at people who will not come out of that denial and see what is really going on in this country today. I have felt as much fear in the last 6 years as I did as a child.

What George Bush has done to this country along with all of the "Religious Rightists" PLHEART has mentioned is really scary. It is not the same country as it was before he came into office. No I don't believe people should mix politics and religion. This is a perfect example of what happens because of that.

I do believe there are good Christians, Muslims, and whatever other believers are out there, however, this is a good example of what happens when the far right of whatever religion has power.

IT BECOMES VERY FRIGHTNING!!! Why don't the "good" Christians stand up for the nuts that are out there like RUSH, ANN C, and on and on. Not any different than the Muslims that won't stand up against the bombers.

We need to find a middle ground in government and I am hoping that in 2 years the poor person that happens to inherit this mess will be able to bring us back from the hell this administration has created in the name of GOD.

My Thanksgiving came after a week in Georgia. First, several days at Koinonia Farms in Americus, Georgia. Koinonia is where Habitat for Humanity got its start, and also offered integrated fellowship with local tenant farming families (colored) and local 'new-to-farming' families (non-colored) - in the 1940s! Faith conversations were a priority, with some disagreements and healthy discussion - though everyone involved was Baptist! Responses from the town ranged from angry boycotting - to the Ku Klux Klan, with gunshot and bombs included. The leaders' responses were totally based on the philosophy of nonviolence. We gave thanks many times while we were there.

The weekend before Thanksgiving Day, I was still in Georgia, but at Ft. Benning in Columbus, with 20,000 other folks - of all religions and none - protesting the infamous torture training at the School of the Americas there. It was incredibly uplifting to be among so many Americans and Latin Americans who believe so strongly that the oppression and torture, killing, and 'disappearing' of peoples by military power MUST BE STOPPED! We gave thanks many times, while we were there.

Then it was time to get together with family to prepare for Thanksgiving. Busying ourselves with cooking, setting tables, etc. was fine. Because, you see, I couldn't talk with the family about where I'd been and what I'd been doing the week before. The Thanksgiving prayers offered by my family members are thanks for personal salvation and the providence of God in Jesus. Period.

Nevertheless, we love one another. We just can't talk about 'religion or politics'. So we give thanks in different ways, for different things, and go on with our lives. I'm sure this is true in many families. Some prefer to talk about things they disagree about, anyway. Others take offense if opinions different to theirs are voiced - because 'the BIBLE says...' .

I give thanks for the example of folks at Koinonia Farms, at the School of the Americas Watch rally, and in all religious or non-religious movements for peace and non-violence.
I give thanks that humans care for one another in their families - and in the wider family of humanity.

Thanksgiving was a good concept but underneath it there is a lot of bad blood and ruthlessness against the Indians by the Pilgrims.

If Thanksgiving is the acceptance of gratitude then we should thank ONE GOD with every breath we take, with every right step we take, with every good deeds we perform, with everytime when someone is being good to us.

In Sikhism( Sikh= as student,a seeker a learner) a sikh thanks for all humanity in his/her prayers and also in Amritsar- the holy shrine of sikhism- 70,000 meals are served daily to all, irrespective of thier hue,creed or faith, 24 hours a day.Any person can walk in and enjoy the free meal. Nice way to thank I suppose. These meals are also served in all the Gurudwaras- Guru= Teacher, Dwara= Portal- all around the world daily

TJ

Another smart person...!!!! Geeeeeee.... I hope there are more of these around....!!! Good for you Eliza...!!!

My family celebrates Thanksgiving as a harvest/cultural festival and a day to be appreciative of the good things in our lives. Instead of a prayer we go around the table and each share something we are grateful for in our lives. We tend to attribute these positive things to substantive real world causations (our own hard work, good economy, love of another, etc.) rather than to a Deity. I have no problems with anyone celebrating however they wish. I think this whole culture war thing is a bit strange. Let people celebrate things in ways that are meaningful to them. No one is telling Christians they can't pray at Thanksgiving or celebrate Christ's birth at Christmas (although Christmas is rooted in pagan holidays of Saturnalia and Yule and everyone knows Jesus probably couldn't have been born Dec. 25th). I won't call you a hypocrit for putting up a Christmas tree although it is a completely pagan inspired tradition. Live and let live.

Whew Realist.... Yep, I hope that's what I meant...^^^^^^ Up there... I wish DesiringGod would figure it out...

Desiring God Fan:

"Ok Realist...for some moral or ethical reason you feel the need to apologize, where do atheists get such high standards of morality? :o)"

I thought I've already answered at length in earlier posts where atheists get their morality from. Same place that you get yours from.

But I don't think I'm better than anybody else, and I'm going to prove that by going right on "brawling" - Sorry, I just can't help it :-). Thanksgiving is over, so I'm going to continue this discussion. I apologize again in advance for going off topic. I'm keen to understand your point of view - it doesn't make much sense to me. So let me try. I'm sorry if I'm a little sarcastic, but I want you to see how I see it.

I like nice people and I want to be nice too. I want to be liked and respected - who doesn't. I want my kids to have happy lives and I want the world to be a better place for them, so maybe I can set a good example and make a small difference to the world. Makes sense doesn't it? I don't need to be a TRUE believer to have a reason to be nice do I? I'd rather be good for those reasons than because I'm afraid some sadistic god is going to torture me because I didn't believe some nonsense that some some ignorant person wrote in a book a long time ago. I'd rather trust someone who values responsibility rather than someone who is only being nice to me because of the threat of torture or because they want to convince me to believe the same lies that they believe.

OK, so you're a SPECIAL kind of Christian, a "TRUE" Christian who is better and holier than those ordinary Christians. So you're going to heaven and those ordinary Christians aren't? Is that the difference?

The statistics are incomplete, they didn't divide Christians into TRUE Christians, and hypocritical scumbag secular Christians who are worse than atheists. It's all clear now. Only TRUE Christians and atheists commit few crimes, those ordinary Chistians who are actually nasty evil secularists commit most of the crimes. (I'll bet those "carnal" Christians actually enjoy sex too. Shame on them! Some of them might even be homosexual.)

It seems most Christians, (at least the fanatical ones) believe that their particular flavour of Christianity makes them better people than everybody else, and only they are going to heaven. I think that's part of the attraction of Christianity - you get to belong to an exclusive club. It's also one of the big problems with it. It just proves conclusively that most (if not all) of them are wrong.

OK, lets suppose for the sake of argument that TRUE Christians are better than others. What makes you and the TRUE Christians better than other people? You claim (without any evidence) that you/they are less likely to commit crimes. Is that because TRUE Christians are never selfish, never get angry, never lie or do anything wrong? You already admitted that you are a sinner and deserve to burn in hell, so I guess that's not it.

You really haven't made it clear whether it's faith or works that gets you the ticket into heaven. You seem to be saying it's mostly works and not faith that gets you into heaven. Maybe if you're good enough then you will get into heaven - you don't commit any serious crimes, only break a few of the 10 commandments etc is that it? Or is it just the right mixture of trying hard to be good and a bit of faith as well?

Do you have to be more fanatical than ordinary Christians to be a TRUE Christian and go to heaven? Is there a certain level of faith required. If you don't have enough faith ... Bzzt, sorry you're going downstairs!

It sounds to me like you think that the ones who really really try very hard to be good like Jesus are going to heaven and those who aren't trying hard enough won't. And those who are trying hard enough wouldn't be committing crimes. Is that how it goes?

If that's it then I can't see any reason why God wouldn't allow a few very good Buddhists into heaven either. Buddhists have a very strict moral code. I prefer the Buddhist moral code to the Christian one. Buddhists must be kind to all living creatures and should never kill or injure ANYTHING - ever. Absolutely impossible actually, but it's a very nice ideal and one that I admire as something to aim for. Buddhism has almost never been responsible for a war.

The point I'm tying to make, and I'm repeating myself now is that Christians don't have a monopoly on morality. There are good and bad people in all cultures and all religions. There were good people before Christianity and there will be good people when Christianity has become ancient history.

I think the difference between really nice Christians and not so nice Christians is due to a combination of culture, upbringing, peer pressure and personality. It's the same with everybody no matter what their religion or lack thereof.

As Dan Dennett says, I prefer to thank Goodness, not God.

Regards,
Realist

ROFLMSAO !!!! Good 1 Pete.... Works for me..!!!

Thanksgiving provides all of us the opportunity to stuff ourselves with religious and secular sentimental gibblets and gibberous. It is one of the few times during the year when we authentically reflect on what a blessing it is that relatives and friends are loved best when they are out of sight and muted to the edge of silence.

A grateful heart is close to God - so all who are grateful on Thanksgiving Day are pleasing to the divine in all of us. Thankfully, our culture in America has not commercialized this holiday to death.

Good Golly Miss Molly!!! DesiringGod, I am not an angry person by nature. But, I am a real thinking person who wishes people would stop using God as the a plank for their social & political problems.
Ofcourse you need God for your moral problems if that is what gets you through the day. For my moral problems I simply look & ask myself, do I need to hurt a person to prove who I am? That usually makes me think a thing through with a free mind & I know I don't have to. That's how simple it is to answer a moral question for myself. Did God need me to bother Him?? Nope... I just knew the answer. For every text from the Bible you've used thtough-out your writings, I still am able to answer my questions with 1 simple thought. I don't have to prove to anyone how important I am by hurting them. I don't have to prove to Gays I am important by hurting them & telling them they can not have a civil union. I don't have to prove how important I am by hurting an un-wed mother & calling her child a bastard. Now, I admit it took me a minute to get there, but, that was because of my anger & fear of God. Once I put the teaching of the dogma of God on the back burner & looked at what was really important, then needing God for every last thing wasn't necessary. If there is a God, I'll take the chance that He knew my intent & whether it was worthy of Him. If not, I think I'm going to have a lot of company in hell.

Vast Left and PLHEART:

I have tried and failed to inform you how the vast majority of everyday Christians, not the hig-profile "Rightists" you keep pounding on, live our lives. I thought it was important, Vast Left, to inform a non-Christian (unless you are an expert on Christain theology) why MANY Christians believe like Jesus that there are those who claim to be Christians in word only. If I wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm a plumber" but I take no action to both KNOW what a plumber is and DO what a plumber does, then I'm really not a plumber. There are people who claim to be "Christians" and are not...if you don't believe that, then I can't help you understand TRUE or BIBLICAL Christianity. You will always argue by pointing out the few HIGH PROFILE, media "stars" who claim they are Christian to belittle those of us who are regular people who have been saved by God's grace (which we didn't deserve).

No One is born a Christian...they might be born "Catholic", PLHEART, but we Protestants (most of us) do not believe there are many Christians in Catholicism...and they would say the same about us (at least their doctrine does...they are the only "true" church...we do not believe in the Papacy and their works-based sacrament system). So you're right, I agree that many Catholic "Christians" are imprisoned, as well as non-Christians and a few "true" Christians as I call them.

back to my point that no one is "born" a Christian. Vast Left, I am not trying use use rhetoricl tricks, I'm trying to inform a non-Christian about someone becomes a "true" Christian using Biblical theology. Jesus said one has to Repent (TURN from an old sinful life) and Believe (and belief is not mere mental assent). Belief is dying to self and living for Christ. Christian Belief is turning over control of your life to God, humbly praising Him for life today and eternal life forever. Christian belief is costly...I'm not rich PLHEART, by the way.

You love to attack people without all the facts (just your nature coming out). I have tried to inform you that there are "true" Christians, and Hypocrites...and the hypocrites get most of the bad press. Hence you know more about them than my Christian friends who scrape a living in Africa to feed the homeless and starving folks in Angola, or my Christian friends who spent months in Pakistan after the big earthquake to help the poor...I don't think you know ANY true Christians...you just know what the media feeds you about those high profile RIGHTISTS you hate.

By the way, I don't need to listen to a minister every Sunday (and I don't PLHEART) to know and see godly, Biblical truth lived out in my home and in my community. I am digusted by much of what I hear from pulpits today...I would go listen to a Charles Spurgeon or a Jonathan Edwards or an A.W. Pink or a John Owen any Sunday, but they are all dead. So, please don't presume too much about fellow "posters" next time.

Well, I'm done with this site. I've tried to have a civil discourse, but you insist on screaming back about Rightists all the time and you are apparently oblivious to all I've been writing. God draws who He wills to salvation...if you've heard His Gospel from the Bible, then you are responsible to Him, not me. I have never tried to "Save" anyone...only God saves by drawing who He wills through their Repentance and faith.

PLHEART, again, I hope you find peace one day or you'll pass on just as angry at the world as you are today. No person can help you. You need Christ. You need peace. Go to the Prince of Peace this Christmas season. He alone is your hope.

Take care. If I have offended you in any way, then I apologize.

DesiringGod.org fan

DesiringGod.org is the website of the greatest living theologian. He pastors an inner-city church, very diverse culturally, helping the poor and down-trodden (physically and spiritually), and firm in their biblical doctrines of grace.

Good point Mike:

I have nearly been killed more than 10 times in my life. In once case, had I stepped left instead of right while crossing the street to avoid someone walking towards me, I would have been run over by a bus traveling quite fast that unknown to me was coming up from behind. In each case, I was just plain thankful I wasn't dead. I consider it luck. In either case the bus thing still gives me the willies when I think about it.

It is possible to be thankful for our good fortune without necessarily attributing to a god or the God.

Reality check people. This is another evangelist attempt to turn the United States in an evangelical theocracy. Thanksgiving is two things, a holiday, and a feast. Americans dont consider it to have anything to do with religion. If it was religious, it would be removed from the calendar as unlawful state sponsored religion.

Yo VastLeft!!!! Thankyou, I'd forgotten about good ole Rush!!! If it weren't for "Religious Rightists" Rush wouldn't have a platform to spew his hatefilled garbage.
That's what I'm talking about DesiringGod, it's that kind of fumbling innocene or failure to see what your type of Christian does to America & the true thinking human being.
I'd be more forgiving of Ted Haggard if he would come out of the closet & stay out of the closet than to try & show up back on the political scene with the claim that he's been "cured" of being gay, & still spewing his hate of gays & gay marriage.
No DesiringGod, until you realllllllllly stop & realllllllly look at what the "Religious Rightists" have made you buy into, with your money I might add, you'd do better to just let us, who do think 1st, control the better part of who we are.
Believe this, if there is a God & He's been talking to me, then I've done as He's asked, when I have fed the friendless & given clothes to those that had none. So far, He in His Infinate Wisdom has not told me to listen to Jerry Fallwell, or Pat Robertson, or James Dobson, or Tony Perkins, & He sure hasn't punished me when I ran like hell away from that kind of hatefilled preaching. So, I must be doing something right...don't ya think?
If you are what you call a true Christian how come you allowed your Christianity to be high-jacked by these type of men anyway? You know what they are doing in the name of Christ is wrong & sinful, yet, you continue to allow them to raise money to stay on T.V., they even have a whole Network for goodness sake. Think it through DesiringGod, I've got no hate for you, I just think your blinded, & if you think I'm blind, then I'd be a damn fool to let you a blind person, lead me, if I'm blind. Personally, I think I see things a lot more clearly than you do.
Before I put my idea of faith into the hands of any man & their interpretation of the Bible, I'd do better to as Christ once said, "be quiet in your prayers". I can read that book & understand it without the effort of any man telling me to believe what he says his way or risk going to hell.
I know it's too much to ask DesiringGod, but, why don't you miss church 1 Sunday & if you can without you minister's sermons ringing in your ears sit down & ask yourself these questions, 1. Am I too stupid to understand this book on my own. 2. Am I too caught-up on proving my church's version of what God says, to allow someone else to understand this book differently than I do? 3. Can I allow someone to think for themselves without preaching to them that the thoughts they have are wrong.
I would also apply these same questions to the Radical Muslims & the Q'uran.
If you can't allow everyone to think differently from you, then I submit, you are not a peace loving Christian or peace loving Muslim.

Desiringgod,

"You obviously were raised by parents who were NOT true Christians."

Again with the "No True Scotsman" argument. One of the oldest rhetorical tricks in the book.

Are the dozens or hundreds or thousands of Catholic priests that molest children "true Christians"?

Are the millions of Christians who avidly listen to Rush Limbaugh -- and enjoy hearing him make light of torture at Abu Ghraib, the poverty of Katrina victims, and Michael J. Fox's infirmities -- are they true Christians?

How about the ones who send money to Pat Robertson, so he can pollute our airwaves with claims that acceptance of homosexuals will cause hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and "possibly a meteor"? Are they true Christians?

The ones who foamed at the mouth in excitement about plans to "kick some Muslim ass" in a country that didn't attack us and had neither the means nor the plan to? Are they true Christians?

"I did answer the question of those who CLAIM to be Christians and still sin, soemtimes sin very badly...such as your examples.....we TRUE Christians (as defined in earlier posts from Scripture) desire no ill-will toward you or others who have been deeply wounded in the past. We pray that you find happiness one day.

Free to think as I please (and likewise to you :o)
Desiring God fan."

I am still astounded how self-described "TRUE Christians" can never seem to resist their increasingly frantic urge to preach, pontificate and attempt to yet again subjugate all those who don't agree with their particular brand of "Christianity". It has all gotten so 15 minutes ago.

First off, I notice the Really Religious Poster says some of us sin "very badly". I guess that means the Reallly Religious Poster only sins really goodly. Give me a break.

Secondly, please, PLEASE don't tell me you are praying for me. I sincerely don't believe you, and if you are actually doing such an idiotic thing, I implore you to stop at once.

Believing in "guilt-by-associaton", I fear God might think I share your ridiculous and decidedly Un-Christian views. I can't afford to have a mark like that against. me.

Yes, it absolutely is a religious holiday. Why?
Well, it's simple. Every Thanksgiving I find myself saying "Thank God I don't have to go to work today."

That's "religious" enough for me.

PLHEART:

I did answer the question of those who CLAIM to be Christians and still sin, soemtimes sin very badly...such as your examples. Did you not read that Jesus claimed that MANY are deceived into thinking they are Christians...they "SAY" they are Christians, but in reality they are wolves in sheep's clothing? Re-read the entire Sermon on the Mount please. (Matthew 5-7)

WOW...you are so angry at "high-profile" "Rightists" in the news that you can't see the millions of humble Christians who lead healthy, joyful lives and endure tirades like yours on a daily basis. I AGREE with you that there are MANY messed up "Christians", but there are just as many messed up non-Christians out there.

I am not trying to stop you or anyone else from being a "Free-Thinker"...lighten up. In this country, you may vent all you want and you have the right to worship yourself or no one. Whew...I sure hope you can have a joyful day one day. All who read these posts can hear your vitriolic tone and hatred of others and life itself.

You react harshly to even friendly advice...we TRUE Christians (as defined in earlier posts from Scripture) desire no ill-will toward you or others who have been deeply wounded in the past. We pray that you find happiness one day.

Free to think as I please (and likewise to you :o)
Desiring God fan

DesiringGod, You still don't have an answer for those that claim that they are Christians & still do this!!! It ain't just me!!! We see it everywhere!!! You'd better start paying attention to those who use their "Religious Rightists" status, to do this stuff & clean that mess up before you come up on me & tell me my free mind needs to be controled by "Religious Rightists". You have got to clean-up the abuse going on in your own back yard.
Jerry Fallwell abuses Christians by telling them that they can't think for themselves & must vote for whom he says to.
Pat Robertson says God comes to him & tells him how to invest money!!! If that's not abusing a Christian mind, what the Sam Hill is??!!?? Name a time when Christ said anywhere in the Bible how to invest money???
Why oh Why, can't you look at these men & these messes they make & clean this silliness up...??? I Mean to tell ya, Ted Freaking Haggard, Is As Gay As They Come, but, instead of letting him live his natural life as a Gay, you all are going to try & shove him back in the closet... Why..?? Have you ever looked into his eyes while he preaches on T.V.?? I have, those eyes show me a man on the border of insanity, those eyes remind me of the eyes of Radical Muslims who have those suicide bombs attached to their bodies. The pain he must be suffering because he knows he's Gay & he still can't be honest with himself & live his natural life as he is. Instead, one day on the news, we may see the following, "Ted Haggard, famous anti-gay preacher, who was caught having an affair with a gay prostitute was found dead after killing his estranged wife & children." Or, Haggard will end up in jail for killing the prostitute. And "Religious Rightists" will blame Atheists or Seculars & claim we did this to him, we made him Gay instead of "Religious Rightists" had to beat him into submission & broke his soul.

Just to prove my point, you ask some Hispanic prisoners, who are gang members & are in jail. They will tell you their parents brought them up in the Catholic Church. They will also tell you that on Sundays when the priest comes in to do Mass they are there in the prison chapel.
I am not saying that there are more Hispanics in prison, but, those Hispanics that are in prison were religiously trained in the church & they love their Catholic faith. Yet, they still find themselves in prison. You reallllllllllllllly don't have a grip on this do you? You just thought you'd try a new tack to see if you could prove being a "Religious Rightist" is better than being able to think as a free person.

Dear PLHEART,

You obviously were raised by parents who were NOT true Christians. I hope you read my entire post about what true Christians are. I am deeply sorry that those who hurt you called themselves Christians. They were not. Now, you classify anyone who calls himself a "Christian" as a "Religious Rightist" and ASSUME they all beat their kids. Sorry, but you are sadly mistaken. Your anger does not equate with the reality of most loving Christian homes. I truly hope you find some healing (Christian or otherwise) from your past...but please don't blame all Christians for your abuse. I don't beat my kids and I know of no other true Christian family today who does. Hypocrites might (and I'm sure some do), and I'm not denying your past, but to lump all Christians into your past abusive situation is not right.

May you find comfort and hope in Christ,
Deisiring God fan
2 Corinthians 1

DesiringGod, I'll have you know, that prisons are filled with people who were indeed brought up in so called Christian homes. Most of the time "the fear of God" was beaten into these kids, who finally flipped out after the last beating & decided the only way out was to take a life including their parents lives. How dare you blame all Atheists & Secularists!!! The arrogance!!! Will you ever admit that the extremism of "Religious Rightists" are just as dangerous? "Religious Rightists" have always used fear to control. How do you use control? Why, "spare the rod & spoil the child", ofcourse!!! So the child fears you, good, because he/she doesn't want to be beaten, but, after you get done making sure that child fears you & your version of God, the child begins to hate that verion of God & they begin to hate you too. The child leaves home, hell, the child RUNS from home. Better to live on the streets than fear being beaten at home. Then the child finds itself doing whatever they have to just to stay away from the parents who were so "Religiously Righteous". No DesiringGod, you do not get to blame Atheists & Secularists, because of "Religious Rightists" failure to use disciple without fear.
You never cease to amaze me!!! Blaming everbody else because to look at the failures of "Religious Rightists" is just toooooooo awful admit....

Realist?

Ok Realist...for some moral or ethical reason you feel the need to apologize, where do atheists get such high standards of morality? :o)

The basic problem with your statistics is that the vast majority of Americans are not TRUE Christians as the media and polls indicate. While it is becoming more politically incorrect to identify oneself as a Bible-believing and Bible-following Christian, most Americans still use this faulty logic: I am an American, therefore I am a Christian. (I said Most, not all, Realist). MOST of these so-called Christians display no evidence that Christ is Lord of their lives, that he daily affects their decision-making process. Therefore, they are "Christian" in name only, or because "my parents were Chrisians" and therefore, "I am a Christian" is NOT how true Christianity works.

That was a long intro to say that when polls say 80 to 90% of Americans say that they are "Christians", that is so wrong and certainly not a "scientific" approach to determining how many true Christians there are in the population. If you would clearly ask Americans if they support the more difficult teachings of Jesus such as the following three quotes, you would find that many do not believe in the hard teaching of Jesus.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3) or "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6). Or "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." Jesus here could be speaking to most Americans who call themselves Christians but rarely ACT like true Christians.

SO, I would say that while there might be many people who claim to be Christians in America, the true number is much less. Your biased sample of prison inmates is woefully wrong. I don't know what sort of "Christians" you have met, but you obviously don't have much contact with true Christians. We do not hate you. True Christians are to love enemies, even enemies of the cross of Christ. You are indeed free to believe in a fantasy world in which you think (and other biased human secularists...which includes MOST agnostics, atheists, humanists, etc....) Christians are populating are prisons. Perhaps I should have said human secularists popluate the majority of our prisons, but people who love Christ with all their hearts, minds and souls RARELY end up in prison. People who only "make a decision" for Christ or "walk an aisle" but never live as if Jesus was Lord of their lives are not truly Christians. True Christians are characterized by a hunger and thirst for righteousness (right moral living according to God's Word).

If nothing else, I hope you now realize that there are indeed poor examples of "Christians", people who claim it with their mouths but their hearts are far from God. Jesus despised these people (Read Matthew 23)..A true disciple of Jesus as defined by Jesus is one "who takes up his cross daily and follows Christ...who doesn't love the world, who stores up treasure in heaven and not on earth, is known for the love he has for the body of Christ." How many Americans are Chrsians by this definition from Christ Himself? Very few...and "for the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Jesus in Matthew 7) He goes on in Matthew 7 to say in verse 21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

If these people who outwardly SAY they are Christians and Jesus says, "Depart from me. I never knew you"...then wouldn't you agree that there are many that don't know Him...who claim to?

There are MANY more examples of this in Scripture. So, Realist, I would try to find a true Christian and observe his/her life and you'll see how differenet he/she is than nominal, "in name only" Christians.

So, forgive me for my assertion that "Atheists" populate our prisons...I meant to say "secularists" or "people who have no true relationship with God". God saves us FROM our sins...we our not perfect, but the desire to please God for true Christians overrides the sinful desire to commit crimes. Secularists follow their human nature, which is sinful without Christ. (Ever watch the news? Mankind has a sinful nature. Police rarely are out arresting true Christians -- the criminals talk like secularists to me and in no way look like a true follower of Christ). True Christians live out versuses like Galatians 2:20, which is usually incomprehensible to non-Christians. "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Well, thanks again for reading. I hope you meet some true Christians one day. They will change your opinion, and you'll see the difference between "carnal Christians" and "Spirit-filled", true Christians. Now that's another long answer...

Have a good day!
Desiring God Fan

Dear Ken,
Thanks... I needed that, Everyone Have A Good Day At Work!!!!

DesiringGod, I Never Said I Hated You... I Just Think You Use Religion As A Reason To Rule Over A Free Thinking Person & That's A Sin... Thank Goodness Some Free Thinking People Over Came That Type Of Rule, Or The True Miracles That Have Saved So Many Lives Would Have Never Been Invented.

Sorry for getting into a brawl! That was mean spirited of me.

I'm thankful for this forum that allows us to brawl in a civilized manner.

I like the idea of thanksgiving. I don't give a hoot if it's a religious festivial or not. Lets give thanks to whoever we want to give thanks to.

Regards,
Realist.

Is this still about Thanksgiving? Looks like a brawl is brewing. Anyway, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. It's a very human story. The pilgrims were starving and freezing. Many didn't make it. Thanks to their fortitude and to the compassion of the Indians, a few survived. When I'm grateful, I feel rich, regardless of my bank account. I'm thankful TO my family, my community and my nation, FOR my family, my community and my nation.
Any turkey left?

Desiring God Fan wrote:
"Non-Christians have done SO much greater harm than good in our world. Talk to any police officers lately? They are not out arresting Christians every day and night...the vast majority of criminals are NOT committed followers of Jesus Christ."

I have to respond to this. Lets look at some actual facts rather than just one person's opinion (based on what, faith?). Studies on crime show that the percentage of atheists in prison is extremely low - much lower than the percentage of atheists in society. Atheists are much less likely to be criminals than religious people. Numerous studies of prison populations around the world show similar results.

These are the results of one study:
"Christians made up 75% of the United States prison population compared to Atheists tiny 0.2%, Christians make up 75% of United States population as a whole and Atheists only 10%."

Here are all the figures:
http://www.thekn0wledge.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=32

Please ignore the inflamatory title and the biased and incorrect interpretation. Atheists can be biased as well.

This seems to indicate that there is little correlation between being Christian and being a criminal but atheists are much less likely to be criminals. It also seems that atheists and agnostics have a slightly lower rate of divorce than the general population.

Those are the facts. If you are going to make accusations, base them on facts please, not imagination!

Regards,
Realist.

"I need to respect your beliefs, but I must challenge you when, for example, you kill abortion doctors, lynch black people, and prohibit stem cell research based on dogma. However, stem cell research should be done only after a strict set of ethical rules have been established."

First of all, there is no such thing as an "abortion doctor". Who "doctors" abortions? The correct term is Abortionist. This is one who performs or commits abortion. "Abortion Doctor" may be good for public relations, but there is no such thing unless there is a medical specialty of physicians that only treat sick abortions.

As to your other points above. No Christian ever killed an abortionist, lynched a black man and no Christian is prohibiting all stem cell research. In fact no research has been made illegal.

Anybody can claim to be a Christian, but the Holy Scriptures make it clear that a real Christian will be known by the fruits they produce, not by the claims they make. A man or woman who claims to be a Christian, but kills an abortionist(unless in self-defense), lynches another human being merely because one believes another human is inferior(ironically this is what most who call themselves pro-choicers support) is not a Christian.

On the Stem-cell research issue; perhaps you are confusing the Federal Funding with non-federal funded research. It is true that our president has made a sound judgement to only commit federal funds to non-embryonic stem-cell research due to ethical reasons. He also has made a judgement that non-embryonic research holds much more promise for success than embryonic research and so far is backed-up by evidence that, to this day, not one study or experiment has shown success in having a benificial result or outcome in animal trials. In fact, actual results have been very negative.

Embryonic research IS GOING ON and is not legally prohibited in any way. Many private research organizations and state governments have committed and are spending MILLIONS of dollars on embryonic research. If there is a success to be found in this area then it will be. Let embryonic-stem cell research prove itself first by showing success, but until success is seen, it is merely a belief and not deserving of federal funds, regardless of the faith statements by many researchers that say embryonic cells "hold great promise". This is a statement of faith, not science and I thought top scientists were against mixing religion(faith) with science?

President Bush's prohibition of embryonic research then is not based on dogma, but on science and science's failure to show any benefit or success from embryonic research.

As for the "ethics" of the research. In WWII, there were many scientists and researchers within the Third Reich that were using live humans(Jews and others considered humanly inferior by the Nazis) for research. Such research was considered perfectly "ethical" by those in charge, but of course this is because of a severe bigotry and prejudice practiced by the scientists themselves. But yet such research would be considered "ethical" and scientific because of those creating the terms and boundaries.

When you say, stem-cell(presumably you should specify "embryonic stem-cells" if this is what you mean) research should be done only after a strict set of ethical rules have been established", who is actually going to set the standard for what is "ethical"? Who is interviewing, evaluating and cross-examining those setting up these "ethics" to make sure they are free of bias, prejudice and bigotry and by what standard or ethics and morality are they being measured against? For it already seems any scientist or researcher that approves of such research is showing a prejudice or bigotry against the youngest of humans(those at the embryo stage of developement) and therefore should be excluded from making policy on ethics involving embryonic stem-cell research.

Well, they say everyone has to believe in something.

I believe I'll have another turkey sandwich.

I have learned a few things here. I learned that DesiringGodFan has mastered the art of cut and paste. (Your Computers 101 professor must be SO proud!)

PLHeart is a sweetheart who makes an awful lot of sense - and I wish her a happy life.

To all, Happy Thanksgiving. No matter what - or whom you choose to believe.

Desiring God Fan:
As to the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, I'm still undecided as to whether Jesus was a real person or not. I always used to assume as everyone else does that there is lots of independendent evidence for the existence of Jesus as a real person, but the more I look into it, most of the "evidence" seems to be from Christian sources and Christian historians. I'll admit I don't know very much about this topic, so feel free to take my words with a grain of salt. I don't like people presenting things as truth without really knowing, and I don't want to do the same. I've met some very smart ex-Christians who know a lot more about the history of the Bible and Christianity than I do, and my opinion is based to some extent on what they have told me.

Most of the evidence that is presented as "independent" "secular" evidence of the existence of Jesus comes from much later than the time of Jesus, and it only seems to confirm that there were Christians and they talked and wrote about Jesus during the century after he supposedly lived. I don't doubt that, but I have some doubt that Jesus was even a real person and I'm convinced that the miracles did not happen. Extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence and the evidence just isn't there. The evidence seems to me to indicate that the miracles were made up a long time after the time of Jesus.

There is plenty of "evidence" that "holy men" in India have performed miracles and the evidence is much more convincing than the evidence for the miracles that Jesus performed.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust many Christian historians to give an unbiased opinion about the existence of Jesus because History demonstrates that Christians have shown time and time again that they prefer to make the evidence fit their conclusions instead of drawing conclusions based on evidence. "My faith and the Bible proves the existence of Jesus, so lets see if we can pick and choose and distort the evidence to make it fit - if the evidence doesn't support our beliefs it must be rejected because it must be wrong." and as a last resort: "Since the evidence doesn't support our conclusions, it must be fabricated by Satan." Not all Christians are so irrational but to a greater or lesser extent, this seems to be how many Christians try to understand reality. It has been proven to be a very unreliable method of determining the truth.

It's a natural tendency for people to look for evidence to support one's beliefs. Scientists do this too. But the difference between science and religion is that science recognizes that we have this tendency and there are processes to counteract it. That's the whole point of science. Religion does not have these checks and balances, and so is not a reliable tool for determining the truth.

Scientists all have their biases, and sometimes even fabricate results for various reasons. But they eventually get caught out because Science has very effective processes to verify the evidence and to reject theories that are unsupported by facts. In fact, currently most of the dishonesty in science seems to involve scientists with a Christian agenda. E.g. the ID people. They've been caught out.

Mike: I am a man. Thanks for your comments. I've been a Christian and was born again once. It only lasted about two weeks - probably because I didn't have people continually reinforcing the brainwashing.

Regards,
Realist

Dear Neo, PLHEART and Realist:

Well, this has been a fun long weekend of "conversing", so to speak. One final post, and I'm back to my other duties and responsibilities.

As I reflect on some of your anger and bitterness towards those of us who actually believe with all of our hearts and minds that Jesus is REAL and DIVINE, I am saddened. I have learned a new term from you all, "Religious Rightists". (I'm familiar with the Religious Right, just never heard them referred to so many times as "Religious Rightists" :o) Your hatred of them is quite obvious. I personally don't look to those enamoured with politics, either from the right or the left, to answer life's most pressing problems. People, left and right, need God, whether they (you) will admit it or not. Science cannot answer the "WHY are we here?" questions of life. One day, after your last breath, you will see Reality. Reality will be a life with God or an eternity apart from God. Your betting quite a bit that you are right. Just imagine for a moment that you may be wrong.

You spent your whole life angry at "religious" people, partuclarly those dratted Christians. If you have been personally wounded by a person who claimed to be a Christian, I'm truly sorry. As I said earlier, I've been around the world many times, and the nicest people...the ones with the most happiness in their lives have been committed Christians (not "Christian hypocrites").

Some of you keep bringing up poor examples of "Christians" from the 17th century or folks like Falwell, but the vast majority of neighborly Christians love their families, love their neighbors, and weekly give financially to help those in need...my family supports a poor family in South America each month, not becauae we HAVE to, No one demands that we support this family...we just WANT to provide food, clothing, and school supplies to this family. Check out the awesome humanitarinan work that Compassion International does (see www.compassion.com) and yes they do it in the name of Christ's love for people.

Your stereotype of us as Christians as anti-intellectual, deluded individuals is just outdated and laughable. I know many intellectual Christians who earned advanced degrees in science, math, and engineering, as well as theology and the humanities. I received a 4-year scholarship to a leading American University and graduated with a 4.0 in my major. My undergraduate degree was a Bachelor of Science!
Christians today come from all walks of life. They (we) love Jesus because he changed their hopeless lives to lives of hope, love, joy, and peace (in the midst of poverty, hunger, lost jobs, dying relatives, etc... They have a hope for the future...an eternal hope.

And by the way, we do take responsibility for our actions. We just recognize that we are not perfect and when we sin against another person or a holy God, we do ask for forgiveness from the person AND God. A humble and a contrite spirit is alien to most atheists...yes and some "Christians" too, I know! Again, I know folks in law enforcement too, and they tell me that they rarely have to arrest committed Christians...it's the godless who generally have fewer moral guidelines and hence commit more crimes.

To answer another post, No ONE forces me to believe anything. I have studied most world religions and observed many atheists and agnostics throughout my life. I willingly submit my life joyfully to God each day, as He alone has the power to change hard hearts like mine. I too, have been hurt by professing Christians in my life...even "fired" from a job by alleged "Christians". It hurt and still does some days, but I don't hold that against God and other true Christians. There are A LOT of folks that think they're Christians, but they are sadly mistaken unless they have truly repented of sin and believe that Jesus is Lord (and therefore LIVE for His Glory and not their own).

I'm rambling now, please forgive me. Well, I'll close with part of a little article I found about Science and Christianity.

I think it will promote some thoughtful reflection. By the way, I reserved that Dawkins book today at the library, and I look forward to reading it. I did read a review (from a secular website) of it and they said that while some of his argumenets were good, that he was quite biased and inflammatory with his rhetoric.

Thanks for reading! Take Care of yourselves!

I agree with you PLHEART...that for a Christian, for me to Live is Christ, and to die is gain! I hope that will be true for you one day as well. (See the Book of Philippians...it is awesome)

SCIENCE and CHRISTIANITY:

"I will close this section with three quotes which aptly summarise the need of science and Christianity for each other. The first is by John Polkinghorne in an article in the Daily Telegraph. Polkinghorne is a theoretical physicist and a member of the Royal Society. He was a professor of mathematical physics before his ordination to the Anglican ministry in 1983. Today he is president of Queens' College, Cambridge, and has been one of the leaders in what seems to be a growing contingent of British physicists who are engaging in meaningful theological discussion. He says:

Men of religion can learn from science what the physical world is really like in its structure and long-evolving history. This constrains what religion can say where it speaks of that world as God's creation. He is clearly a patient God who works through process and not by magic. Men of science can receive from religion a deeper understanding than could be obtained from science alone. The physical world's deep mathematical intelligibility (signs of the Mind behind it) and finely tuned fruitfulness (expressive of divine purpose) are reflections of the fact that it is a creation.

The second quote is from the eminent philosopher Alfred North Whitehead. He observed:

When we consider what religion is for mankind, and what science is, it is no exaggeration to say that the future course of history depends upon the decision of this generation as to the relations between them.

The third quote, which I like most of all, comes from Gordon Cooper, American Astronaut, who named his spacecraft "Faith 7". He said:

At an altitude of more than 150 miles over the Indian Ocean, I had faith and thanked God for the privilege of being on the space flight. Our launch team had faith in God, in the hardware we had developed and in each other. As we learn more about the universe we gain greater faith in the work of the Supreme Architect. Upon contemplating the complex workings of millions of planetary bodies - and the unknown immensity of the universe - we realise what a fantastic miracle it all is, including our little earth.

see the rest at http://www.christianity.co.nz/scienc11.htm

In Christ and For His Glory,
www.desiringGod.org Fan

A fundamental aspect of early civilization was group worship.

Could it be that God is a form of schizophrenia caused by this genetic mutation that happend about 5,800 years ago? Read more below:

September 09, 2005
Human Brain Is Still Evolving

http://www.hhmi.org/news/lahn4.html

Howard Hughes Medical Institute researchers who have analyzed sequence variations in two genes that regulate brain size in human populations have found evidence that the human brain is still evolving.

Their statistical analysis indicated that the Microcephalin haplogroup D appeared about 37,000 years ago, and the ASPM haplogroup D appeared about 5,800 years ago - both well after the emergence of modern humans about 200,000 years ago.

“In the case of Microcephalin , the origin of the new variant coincides with the emergence of culturally modern humans,” said Lahn.

“And the ASPM new variant originated at a time that coincides with the spread of agriculture, settled cities, and the first record of written language.

So, a major question is whether the coincidence between the genetic evolution that we see and the cultural evolution of humans was causative, or did they synergize with each other?”

And the best one NEO is, if there is a heaven, & if you are allowed to look at the pearly gates & if there is God & He's there to meet you, I'll bet the 1st thing He says is: "Why you jackass, you never had to give a dime to any church just to come & meet me... The ticket's free.."
Ya know what's the biggest giggle of all, while Jerry Fallwell & the people like him are railing against stem cell research, the man wants every discovery made by scientists to be used to keep his sorry butt alive. He wants to stay alive even when he's too old & the ticker is crashing... Why...??? Is it because he's scared of dying??? Why wouldn't he want to die a loving natural death & meet God, instead of using every last medical device known to man. If You Ain't Afraid Of Dying, Because You Think Your Version Of God Is Better Than Any Other Version Of God, Then Stop Using Every Medical Discovery To Stay Here. Thank The Lord, Your God, Ask His Permission To Meet Him & Go.

Religious Rightists don't like Science because it takes away their ability to bilk people out of money. Religion is just money, power and a way to get people to feel better about the sins they comit in the name of god.

Born Again: This is interesing. Why must people be born again? Is it because they committed such horrible sins against themselves and/or others that they are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves and their actions so they engage in the fantasy that if they accept JC as their savior, then they don't have to live with the guilt of all the harm they have done>

And did you know you used to have to pay the Church $$$$ in order for them to let you get into heaven?

Such nice people they are and so clean too.

That's me again, I forgot to sign my name.

And the sun revolves around the earth. The bible said is so, so it must be true.
Religious Rightist are such nice people too. Read below:

n 1612, opposition arose to the Copernican theories, which Galileo supported.

In 1614, from the pulpit of Santa Maria Novella, Father Tommaso Caccini (1574-1648) denounced Galileo's opinions on the motion of the Earth, judging them dangerous and close to heresy. Galileo went to Rome to defend himself against these accusations.

However, in 1616, Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino (1542-1621) personally handed Galileo an admonition enjoining him to neither advocate nor teach Copernican astronomy, because it was contrary to the accepted understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

In 1622, Galileo wrote the Saggiatore [The Assayer], which was approved and published in 1623. In 1624, he developed the first known example of the microscope. In 1630, he returned to Rome to apply for a license to print the Dialogo dei Massimi Sistemi [Dialogue on the Great World Systems], published in Florence in 1632. But in October of that year, he was ordered to appear before the Holy Office in Rome.

The court issued a sentence of condemnation and forced Galileo to abjure. He was confined in Siena and eventually, in December 1633, he was allowed to retire to his villa in Arcetri.

In 1634, he was deprived of the support of his beloved daughter, Sister Maria Celeste (1600-1634), who died prematurely.

In 1638, when he was almost totally blind, the Discorsi e dimostrazioni intorno a due nuove Scienze [Discourses and demonstrations on two new Sciences] was published in Leiden. Galileo died in Arcetri on January 8, 1642.

Or are they a bunch of hateful dogmists?

Back atcha ...!!! Get me...??!!?? Not just me Honey, they are after anybody & everybody that uses the tools as nature intended they be used...!!

PLHEART
They are just out to get you aren't they??!! Boo!!

Let everyone live in peace and be thankful in thier own way.
Now where's the food!

Ya know, you "Rligious Rightists" are gonna drive people 'round the bend. "Christians Invented Science"? There wasn't a Christian on the planet when the 1st Greek measured time with a pair of sticks!!! The 1st experiment done by any man was done by a Greek who measured the seasons, & it was done some 5 or 6 hundred years before Christ was a gleam in Mary's eye. Hypatia, a woman I might add, furthered the study of mathematics than any other man & was promptly stoned to death for her efforts,(hope I spelled her name right). All of the astronomers, were tortured by the Catholic Church. To this day, the Church won't admit that the freaking Sun is the center of our solar system & that the earth revolves around it. "Christians invented Science"? Science as we know it came to be because men & women who actually thought a thing through decided for themselves not to believe in the hooooodooooo of Religion & instead sought a more true explaination of how this world works.
Which now brings me to, yep you've guessed it, stem research. For almost a hundred years our scientists have experimented with all types of things to save lives. Salk & the polio vaccine comes to mind. Now, scientists stand on the edge of discovering more cures of more diseases if they were allowed to take the next step & look at stem cell research. However, as you can see "Religious Rightists" want to curb those experiments. In other countries, experiments are going forward at a pace that just awes the mind. And because of those experiments patents are being applied for, for new machines invented by doctor's & medical facilities from other countries. In other words, Americans aren't the inventor's anymore & we as a nation are not making the money we used to make producing these items. Because of the hooodooooooo by "Religious Rightists" in this country, an educated mind is being told it has to remain stuck in stupid, because that's what "Religious Rightists" have said God wants. Now our best & brightest need to go to Iran, who does do stem cell research,(yep I said Iran), in order to catch up on simple learning!!!
Now, back to the question, Should non-believers be allowed to celebrate Thanksgiving? Hell yes, just to be Thankful there's a country on this planet who doesn't let it's own hooooodoooo from it's own primary religion stop the mind from learning.

How sad that people use Thanksgiving to thank a non-existent god; they should instead be thanking family and friends for their support, community, and love.

Once again, religion has directed believers away from the reality around them. It breaks my heart.

To: Desiring God Fan
I am also a fan of John Piper. Anyone who offers all of their writings and sermons (for free) rather than charging for them like many of our brothers and sisters on the internet, is a true advocate for the gospel!! Blessings to you!!

Good morning Realist! and Note to VAST LEFT at bottom of this post.

Key words you wrote...

"As far as I know, almost all anybody knows about Jesus is from the New Testament (and books that didn't make it into the various drafts of the Bible). There are very few references to Jesus outside of Christian literature, and most of those few that do exist are rather dubious."

"As far as I know"...very dangerous words indeed.

It is obvious that you have not studied much biblical history, archaeology, or Christian theology...so I would not put all my trust in your limited knowledge. I have limited knowledge too, but all arguments that try to disprove the reality of the historical Jesus are quite lacking. I have read most of their arguments. They are seriously lacking. (I did leave a very successful career to study theology full-time, and I am thankful for all the time delving into that most important subject. :o) I'm still learning and reading, and I hope you do as well.

Self-centered people have tried to quench Christian history and truth for centruries. If God exists, they believe, "we're in BIG trouble". So atheists and liberals try to re-write history all the time.

Actually, I'm not a "fundamentalist" as you would suggest..go to desiringGod.org and learn about Christian Hedonism...that will blow your misconceptions away! :o)

I pray that one day you will understand that we Christians do not live in constant fear...we have a healthy fear of the omnipotent God Who created this world (we are not cosmic accidents) AND at the same time we live with much JOY because He has opened our hearts to experience His love, joy, and peace! My "church" has not taught me this...I found these truths within the Bible and from a few very godly, Reformed AND JOYFUL Christians! :o)

I've got a lot of family things to do today, so I need to run. Have a good day...life is a joy and it has been a pleasure to interact with you. Keep reading, and I will too! Here is some basic info about the historical Jesus:

Did Jesus Really Exist?

"No, he didn't!" some skeptics claim, thinking that this is a quick, powerful lever with which to pry people away from "the fable of Christianity." But the lever crumbles at its very first use. In fact, there is more evidence that Jesus of Nazareth certainly lived than for most famous figures of the ancient past. This evidence is of two kinds: internal and external, or, if you will, sacred and secular. In both cases, the total evidence is so overpowering, so absolute that only the shallowest of intellects would dare to deny Jesus' existence. And yet this pathetic denial is still parroted by "the village atheist," bloggers on the internet, or such organizations as the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

The Internal Evidence

Aside from the many Messianic predictions in the Old Testament, not one of the four Gospels or the 23 other documents in the New Testament would make an ounce of sense if Jesus had never lived. Did the whole cavalcade of well-known historical personalities in the first century A.D. who interacted with Jesus deal with a vacuum? Did Herod the Great try to terminate an infant ghost? Did the Jewish high priests Annas and Caiaphas interview a spirit? Did the Roman governor Pontius Pilate judge a phantom on Good Friday, or Paul and so many apostles give their lives for a myth?

No one doubts that the above names are well known from both sacred and secular sources, as well as archaeological evidence, and are therefore historical. The same is clearly true of Jesus of Nazareth. But why, then, is Jesus not permitted the "luxury" of actually having lived as did the rest of these? Why the double standard here?

From the internal, biblical evidence alone, therefore, Jesus' existence is simply categorical. And yet there is an abundance of additional extrabiblical information on this question.

The External Evidence: Christian

Another long paragraph could be devoted to writings of the early church fathers, some of whom had close contact with New Testament personalities. Jesus' disciple John, for example, later became bishop of the church at Ephesus. One of his students was Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, and a student of his, in turn, was Irenaeus of Lyons. The centerpiece in all of their writings was Jesus the Christ ("Messiah").

Apart from such living personal links to Jesus, both geographical and temporal tangencies appear in Justin Martyr. Born of pagan parents around A.D. 100 in Nablus (between Judea and Galilee), Justin tried and abandoned various philosophical schools until he found in Christianity the one true teaching. As a native of the Holy Land, Justin mentions sites associated with Jesus, such as the Bethlehem grotto in which he was born, and even such details as Jesus working as an apprentice carpenter in the shop of his foster father Joseph, where they specialized in producing such agricultural implements as yokes for oxen and plows.

External Evidence: Jewish

The Jewish rabbinical traditions not only mention Jesus, but they are also the only sources that spell his name accurately in Aramaic, his native tongue: Yeshua Hannotzri—Joshua (Jesus) of Nazareth. Some of the references to Jesus in the Talmud are garbled—probably due to the vagaries of oral tradition—but one is especially accurate, since it seems based on written sources and comes from the Mishna—the earliest collection of writings in the Talmud. This is no less than the arrest notice for Jesus, which runs as follows:

He shall be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and lured Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. Anyone who knows where he is, let him declare it to the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.

Four items in this statement strongly support its authenticity as a notice composed before Jesus' arrest: 1) The future tense is used; 2) Stoning was the regular punishment for blasphemy among the Jews whenever the Roman government was not involved; 3) There is no reference whatever to crucifixion; and 4) That Jesus was performing "sorcery"— the extraordinary or miraculous with a negative spin—is quite remarkable. This not only invokes what historians call the "criterion of embarrassment," which proves what is conceded, but accords perfectly with how Jesus' opponents explained away his miraculous healings: performing them with the help of Beelzebul (Luke 11:18).

Moreover, the first-century Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, twice mentions "Jesus who is called the Christ" in his Jewish Antiquities. In the second of these, he tells of the death of Jesus' half-brother James the Just of Jerusalem (20:200). And two books earlier, in the longest first-century non-biblical reference to Christ, he tells of Jesus midway through his discussion of events in Pontius Pilate's administration:

At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. (18:63)

This is the recent, uninterpolated text that replaces the traditional version which, unfortunately, had suffered early interpolation. For a more detailed evaluation of Josephus and his references to Jesus, please see my separate article on Josephus in this series.

External Evidence: Secular

Cornelius Tacitus, one of the most reliable source historians of first-century Rome, wrote in his Annals a year-by-year account of events in the Roman Empire under the early Caesars. Among the highlights that he reports for the year A.D. 64 was the great fire of Rome. People blamed the emperor Nero for this conflagration since it happened "on his watch," but in order to save himself, Nero switched the blame to "the Christians," which is the first time they appear in secular history. Careful historian that he was, Tacitus then explains who "the Christians" were: "Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus" (15:44). He then goes on to report the horrors that were inflicted on the Christians in what became their first Roman persecution.

Tacitus, it should be emphasized, was not some Christian historian who was trying to prove that Jesus Christ really lived, but a pagan who despised Christians as a "disease," a term he uses later in the passage. Had Jesus never even existed, he would have been the first to expose that pathetic phantom on whom such cultists placed their trust. Were no other references to Jesus available, this passage alone would have been sufficient to establish his historicity. Skeptics realize this, and so have tried every imaginable means to discredit this passage—but to no avail. Manuscript analysis and computer studies have never found any reason to call this sentence into question, nor its context.

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus also recorded events of the first century in his famous Lives of the Twelve Caesars. He, too, regarded the Christians as a sect "professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Nero 16) and doubtless cited "Christus" as well, spelling his name "Chrestus" (Claudius 25). That the vowels "e" and "i" were often interchangeable is demonstrated by the French term for "Christian" to this day: chretien.

Pliny the Younger was the Roman governor of Bithynia—today, the northwestern corner of Turkey—and about the year 110 he wrote the emperor Trajan (98-117 A.D.), asking what to do about the Christians, a "wretched cult" whom he mentions eight times in his letter. Christ himself is cited three times, the most famous instance referring to Christians "...who met on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honor of Christ, as if to a god..." (Letter No. 96). Trajan's response, interestingly enough, suggests that Christians not be hunted out. (Ibid., No. 97). But again, if Christ were only a mythical character, these hostile sources would have been the first to emblazon that fact in derision.

Other ancient secular sources, such as Theudas and Mara bar Serapion also bear witness to the historicity of Jesus. But any further evidence clearly comes under the "beating a dead horse" category so far as this article is concerned. Nothing more is necessary in view of the overpowering evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was no myth, but a totally historical figure who truly lived. Skeptics should focus instead on whether or not Jesus was more than a man. That, at least, could evoke a reasonable debate among reasonable inquirers, rather than a pointless discussion with sensationalists who struggle to reject the obvious.

By Paul L. Maier, The Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University

Vast Left: Check this out as well...

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9610/johnson.html

Even 2000 years ago it was told to us that the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Yes, we are fools for Christ!! And such a wonderful freedom we enjoy!!!

Whoops, to Realist. I did not mean to assume that you are a man. :)

Mr. Realist

You really can't understand that Christianity is an awesome freedom. You claim that Christians are enslaved with guilt and fear. Sir, I must confidently assert that for someone who is a TRUE believer that it is quite the opposite! It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. He is the steadfast anchor of my soul who brings me great freedom, peace and joy. I pray that each of you will someday learn of this great freedom within our hearts that is available to all who believe on the name of Jesus Christ. Our rock and our redeemer!!! It is really a wonderful thing that He gives freedom to such an undesrving bunch.... Christians! ME included!! Grace and Peace to you!!

Sorry for the sloppy spelling and grammar in my last post - I type like an engineer. :-)

DesiringGod.org fan wrote:
"I do realize that the only true God, the God of the Bible, is a God of love AND a God of wrath."

He's pretty inconsistent isn't he? Rather like a spoilt brat.

"(Remember Sodom and Gomorrah?) Didn't know if you could handle that truth, but I do believe it."

So are you admitting that you were lying to us about God being such a nice guy because you thought we couldn't handle the truth? You were just pretending to be a liberal Christian, but you're really a fundamentalist, but didn't want to admit it because you are a little embarrased by it? I'm sorry for being cruel, but I can handle the truth, can you?

"He will Judge all of us. Not just me and you, but all...and I know that I deserve Hell because I have broken some of His commandments."

No, you don't! I think I care about you more than God does, and I don't even know you! I feel very sorry for you if you really believe that. You are enslaved by fear and guilt. That's how fundamentalists keep you ignorant. That is why I don't like religion, well at least fundamentalist Christianity. It turns good people into fearful ignorant guilt-ridden biggots. I'm not saying that you are like that, but there are plenty of examples of people like that in the news in the US.

"How about you? I'm not perfect, but I am casting all my hope on the REALITY of Jesus' Life and Death. MOST non-Christian theological scholars do not question the reality of Jesus Christ"

If they don't they certainly should. As far as I know, almost all anybody knows about Jesus is from the New Testament (and books that didn't make it into the various drafts of the Bible). There are very few references to Jesus outside of Christian literature, and most of those few that do exist are rather dubious. This is very surprising since you would expect that someone who went around performing miracles including raising the dead, would have been mentioned by somebody other than the Christians. In some cases, there were supposedly many witnesses. What happened to all the eye-witnesses? It is really surprising that there is no mention of these miracles in other writings of the time.

The New Testament was written 30-100 years after Jesus lived, and Bible scholars aren't sure who the authors were for most of the books. When Police collect evidence for a crime, the eye-witnesses often have wildly differing reports of a crime even if they are interviewed on the same day or the next day. How reliable do you think someone's description of events would be fourty years later - particularly if they were not even eye-witnesses but were relating events that were described to them by others?

As for me, I'm not perfect either, none of us are. But I haven't done anything so bad that I feel I should be tortured for all eternity. I'm not obsessed with being imperfect, that's not very healthy. If I do something wrong, I try to make up for it. I'm just human. I really can't understand why God would create all of us just so that he could torture most of us for all eternity. It just doesn't make sense unless he's one very sick monster.

Christianity is a seriously unhealthy religion.

"He must be either Lord or a Lunatic...He can't be both." or a mostly or totally fictional character most of whose life has been copied from earlier mythology. (I was going to opt for a more sarcastic answer, but that would be displaying my own imperfect human nature).

"Skeptics have been unable to disprove the history, archaeology, and theology of the Bible for centuries."

That's just plain wrong. Who's been feeding you that nonsense? There are numerous instances where archaeological evidence contradicts the Bible, and more importantly, there is almost no independent historical evidence that corroborates the existence of Jesus or the events of his life. You probably need to read some unbiased material about the archaeology of the Bible. Maybe something like: http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm
I admit I'm not a expert on the subject.

"So Realist...get REAL! Jesus was Real. His Word is LIFE...yes, read the Whole Bible...I agree with you. He is a God who promises either Eternal Life (to those who repent of their sin and believe...he came preaching a Gospel of Repent and Believe...see Mark Chapter 1, Verse 15) OR Eternal death...again read the Bible...Jesus calls Hell the unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:12) Jesus spoke of Hell's misery many times...so He came to offer Life and Hope and Joy, or reject Him and live for yourself and spend eternity in Hell. Ever hear of Pascal's wager?"

The Bible makes lots of promises and threats, but I hven't found any evidence that those promises or threats are real.

My appologies to Pascal, but I can't make myself believe something just because it might be convenient for me if it were true. I can't twist my mind that far - that would be a kind of psychosis. I can only believe something if I actually think it is true. I don't believe Christianity corresponds to reality. The evidence all seems to me to point the other way.

"By the way, yes I believe we are born sinners...you and me. My only hope and your only hope is that God is God and you and I are not."

I have to comment on this. This is what really gets me riled about Christianity. It punishes the innocent, takes responsibility away from the guilty, gives credit to God for all the good things that he wasn't involved in and blames and persecutes people for things that they are not responsible for (and presumably God is). It's totally screwed up. Sorry, but that's the way it looks to me.

"I need to close, but I have absolutely no ill-will towards you, only your philosophy of life that ignores the Sovereign Lord. You are currently blinded by the lies of Satan...yes, I believe he is real too. I pray that your eyes will one day be opened to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ. (see 2 Corinthians)"

I'm obviously starting to make sense to you because now you have to invoke Satan to dismiss what I've been saying. I don't have any ill will towards you either. I think you are a good person who is seriously brainwashed.

I base my understanding of reality on things that I can learn and observe about the world, while you seem to ignore the real world and base your reality on a only one book (OK it's a collection of small books).

Regards,
Realist

Vast Left:

Good morning...sure I'll take a look at Dawkins' book. I have a rather extensive library...you were correct in that I do a lot of reading. I have seen Dawkins on some television shows, and I have read some articles in magazines about his worldview. I find his worldview quite empty and ultimately sad. I will look for the book at the library, however.

Have you read any C.S. Lewis? He was a brilliant man who doubted God's existence, and later came to realize that God must exist. You are staking eternity that you are correct. Have you considered what eternity will be like if you are wrong?

Enjoy this article! Take care! (I'll look for the Dawkins book today!)

Don't Waste Your Life

Since September 11, 2001, I have seen more clearly than ever how essential it is to exult explicitly in the excellence of Christ crucified for sinners and risen from the dead. Christ must be explicit in all our God-talk. It will not do, in this day of pluralism, to talk about the glory of God in vague ways. God without Christ is no God. And a no-God cannot save or satisfy the soul. Following a no-God—whatever his name or whatever his religion—will be a wasted life. God-in-Christ is the only true God and the only path to joy.

To bring us to this highest and most durable of all pleasures, God made his Son, Jesus Christ, a bloody spectacle of blameless suffering and death. This is what it cost to rescue us from a wasted life. The eternal Son of God “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing.” He took “the form of a servant” and was born “in the likeness of men . . . . He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:6-8).

All Things Were Made for Him
This Jesus was and is a real historical man in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Colossians 2:9). Since he is “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God,” as the old Nicene Creed says, and since his death and resurrection are the central act of God in history, it is not surprising to hear the Bible say, “All things were created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16). For him! That means for his glory.

Ever since the incarnate, redeeming work of Jesus, God is gladly glorified by sinners only through the glorification of the risen God-Man, Jesus Christ. His bloody death is the blazing center of the glory of God. There is no way to the glory of the Father but through the Son. All the promises of joy in God’s presence, and pleasures at his right hand, come to us only through faith in Jesus Christ.

If We Reject Him, We Reject God
Jesus is the litmus test of reality for all persons and all religions. He said it clearly: “The one who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16). People and religions who reject Christ reject God. Do other religions know the true God? Here is the test: Do they reject Jesus as the only Savior for sinners who was crucified and raised by God from the dead? If they do, they do not know God in a saving way.

That is what Jesus meant when he said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Or when he said, “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him” (John 5:23). Or when he said to the Pharisees, “If God were your Father, you would love me” (John 8:42).

If we would see and savor the glory of God, we must see and savor Christ. For Christ is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). To put it another way, if we would embrace the glory of God, we must embrace the Gospel of Christ. The reason for this is not only because we are sinners and need a Savior to die for us, but also because this Savior is himself the fullest and most beautiful manifestation of the glory of God. He purchases our undeserved and everlasting pleasure, and he becomes for us our all-deserving, everlasting Treasure.

The Gospel is the Good News of the Glory of Christ
This is how the Gospel is defined. When we are converted through faith in Christ, what we see with the eyes of our hearts is “the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The Gospel is the good news of all-conquering beauty. Or to say it the way Paul does, it is the good news of “the glory of Christ.” When we embrace Christ, we embrace God. We see and savor God’s glory. There is no savoring of God’s glory if we do not see it in Christ. This is the only window through which a sinner may see the face of God and not be incinerated.

The Bible says that when God illuminates our hearts at conversion, he gives “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). Either we see the glory of God “in the face of Jesus Christ,” or we don’t see it at all. And “the face of Jesus Christ” is the beauty of Christ reaching its climax in the cross. The bloody face of Christ crucified (and triumphant!) is the countenance of the glory of God. What was once foolishness to us becomes our wisdom and our power and our boast (1 Corinthians 1:18, 24).

Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cherish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort in every pain.

------------------------------------------------

© Desiring God

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.

DesiringGod.org fan,

So, does that mean you're not going to read Dawkins?

His "The God Delusion" is a very concise and well-argued book about the fact that there probably is no God. Might be worth your time.

Seems like you do a lot of reading about religion. This would be an important addition to that reading.

You challenge others to read a lot of scripture to "open their minds" to it.

I'm sure you don't equate faith with ignorance, so why not take the time to learn another perspective?

Is there a difference between being religious and being spiritual?

Even if one were a non believer in a spiritual/religious realm, couldn't one find something to be grateful about?

Celebrate that!

Hi Neo:

There IS a God, and WE have a lot to answer for.

Romans 1: 18 - 23:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 10
1Brothers,my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

indeed goood =)[url=http://gooogle.com/]gooogle[/url]

Robert DeNiro said:"If there is a God he has a lot to answer for."

See the guy is much smarter than me, in 12 words, he's said what I have been stammering around trying to get at for days.

Hi Vast Left and Realist!

Sorry if I have not included enough Scripture for you Realist. If I posted it all, you would see that I do believe the Bible cover to cover. I do realize that the only true God, the God of the Bible, is a God of love AND a God of wrath. (Remember Sodom and Gomorrah?) Didn't know if you could handle that truth, but I do believe it. He will Judge all of us. Not just me and you, but all...and I know that I deserve Hell because I have broken some of His commandments. How about you? I'm not perfect, but I am casting all my hope on the REALITY of Jesus' Life and Death. MOST non-Christian theological scholars do not question the reality of Jesus Christ...that He lived and that after this small-town carpernter's death AND RESURRECTION, a worldwide explosion of Christ-followers happened...why? Because his disciples were emboldened with great courage to spread the Gospel (GOOD NEWS) of Christ around the world. Not FORCED conversions...like ALL I know of today...we were drawn by the love and grace (and knowing of the wrath) of God to salvation.

I also believe that Jesus is God...why? Because He claimed to be God and then proved it time and time again. (SO NEO, if you follow the teachings of Jesus, then you must believe He is Lord as He claimed to be.) He also spoke of the reality of Hell more than anyone in the Bible. Many will choose the broad road that leads to death and hell. Jesus in Matthew 7: 13-14

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

He was a real person, a rational human being, but also was divine and proved it many times...the key being His resurrection. We could debate the validity of His resurrection forever, but His life, death, and resurrection has changed history more than anyone who has ever lived. He must be either Lord or a Lunatic...He can't be both.

So or you atheists and scientists (who are not ALL atheists), it IS rational to believe in God. Skeptics have been unable to disprove the history, archaeology, and theology of the Bible for centuries. Yes, there is an aspect of God-given faith in Christianity, but great minds like Luther, Calvin, Bacon, Pascal, Edwards, C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, etc... knew that the God of the Bible was real. God-given faith and reason could and do live together. Have you read any of Lee Strobel's books?

The popular view that faith and science are in conflict was not present when science first bloomed. “In the early days of science, it’s certainly true that there was no sense in which science and religion were antagonistic,” according to Sir Alan Cooke, a Fellow of the Royal Society of London, the world’s oldest and leading organization dedicated to the study of science.
Francis Bacon, for example, who is often regarded as the father of the scientific method, said “Natural Philosophy [the study of nature] is, after God’s Word, the surest medicine for superstition and also the most approved nourishment of Faith. And so she is rightly given to Religion as a most faithful handmaiden….”
“Science could and did grow in only one milieu: Christianity,” according to Dr. D James Kennedy. “Science—and all its benefits—arose in a distinctly Christian framework where men believed that a rational God had made a rational universe, and it was our job to explore the laws of His creation.”

So Realist...get REAL! Jesus was Real. His Word is LIFE...yes, read the Whole Bible...I agree with you. He is a God who promises either Eternal Life (to those who repent of their sin and believe...he came preaching a Gospel of Repent and Believe...see Mark Chapter 1, Verse 15) OR Eternal death...again read the Bible...Jesus calls Hell the unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:12) Jesus spoke of Hell's misery many times...so He came to offer Life and Hope and Joy, or reject Him and live for yourself and spend eternity in Hell. Ever hear of Pascal's wager?

By the way, yes I believe we are born sinners...you and me. My only hope and your only hope is that God is God and you and I are not.

To another of your points "and more and more I can see how much harm religion is doing in the world. It's not just a harmless fiction, it's a dangerous delusion" I am so sorry but you are a deluded Realist. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Non-Christians have done SO much greater harm than good in our world. Talk to any police officers lately? They are not out arresting Christians every day and night...the vast majority of criminals are NOT committed followers of Jesus Christ. I could go on and on and list thousands of Christian relief organizations that have aided millions of people in dire need. Who are the first to mobilize after a storm to feed people? Christian relief agencies...I don't see atheists and agnostics mobilizing nearly as much. Christians lay down their lives so that others might truly live. Ever hear of Jim Elliot, John G Paton, William Carey, Adonirum Judson, the Apostle Paul? Read something that will inspire your soul. Pick up a good Christian Biography. Read about the great Doctor D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Another of your points...one which I generally agree with: "She went to be "healed" by a faith healing preacher in one of those mega churches that are so popular in the US." You said churches like this cause great harm and I agree! You might find it interesting to know that I disdain MOST of these mega-churches as well. Much harm IS caused by liberal and wrong theology. Few churches get the gospel right anymore.

I need to close, but I have absolutely no ill-will towards you, only your philosophy of life that ignores the Sovereign Lord. You are currently blinded by the lies of Satan...yes, I believe he is real too. I pray that your eyes will one day be opened to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ. (see 2 Corinthians)

By God's grace alone,
DesiringGod.org fan
Romans 1 would be good for you as well

I am with Mr. Tichell, above, who gives thanks to "all those wonderful human beings who have made my life better". That's Thanksgiving, pure and simple. Spouses, siblings, parents, good friends. Please. It's not a religious holiday, no matter what a bunch of New Englanders in black hats with funny buckles might have said or done over three centuries ago.

Who cares if Thanksgiving is a religious holiday? It is not.

The bigger question is: At the beginning of the 21st Century and armed with all the information provided to us by science and technology how can any educated human being not come to the conclusion that we, human beings, created god and invented religion. There is no other rational explanation.

I have always been a thankful person, it may be my nature. I was brought up in a moral good home without God. I was thankful then.

I went through many changes, not wanting or needing God, became an agnostic ( always thought there was somethings bigger then us out there) I still was still thankful.

After going through depression, a divorce and searching for meaning in life, when through lots of different 'new age" experiences, ended up in an abusive relationship( still trying to look to the positive and thankful for small things)in the middle of that time I actually read the Bible ( If you have not read it how do you know what Jesus is all about?)for the first time.

And it took several years and stuggling with all those question "how can a good god alow such evil?" What about those who haven't heard the Gospel the Good News? and many more for me to see there is TRUTH.
I know I couldn't save myself from anything and asked for the forgiveness of my sins and belived that God come down to give His life a Ransome for all that would believe. Now 17 years later I Love and Trust God for my life and Thank Him for all things.

We all can be Thankful

Well, I'll be damned... !!! They posted this message...^^^^

Here's what has me upset just now, I wrote a post & this site has held it back. The post had to do with the idea of anyone sitting in judgement of me. I said that I want God to come & look me in the eye, & expect I will hear the following, "Yes PLHeart, while you're a Pain In The Ass, you did feed those that were hungry, without being asked, & when the Hipanic woman knocked on your door at 6AM & asked to use the phone so she could call someone to get a ride, you let her use the phone & although you were too afraid to let her wait in your apartment, you at least gave her a sweatshirt so she could be warm, while she waited outside for her ride. If you at least did this much for someone, then that's good enough for me." I may not believe in a religion, but, I believe in a natural goodness of heart.
I also said, that some where in the Bible it says, "Beware of those that preach & pontificate in the streets, for they do not speak the words of the Lord, your God". And yes, I would include T.V. preachers, because they do that preaching for their own self angrandisement(hope I spelled that right), instead of taking all that T.V. money & truely helping the poor. I see Liberty University doesn't let all of it's students in for free. They indeed have scholarships, but, Jerry Fallwell would never ever dream of allowing his college be open to all including secular people, for free. All Religions Limit Free Thought, & until Religions understand that it is Free Thought that has advanced this society & made it the greatest experiment known to any man anywhere, then religion will never surpass it's fear & superstition. It will stay mired where it is.

Oh my God! What a piece of BS. Mr. Meacham....get a grip on reality and forget the superstitions and the head up your you know whatsky. Any new insights into Iraq? It is always a sad day to listen to people who don't have a clue but speak with such assurances.

DesiringGod.org fan:

Your intentions are good, and I'm sure you sincerely believe it, but most of what you say simply is not true. You talk a lot about love and how wonderful God is and how wonderful "true" Christians are, but the problem is that that's not what the Bible says. You pick the bits that you like out of the Bible and ignore the rest.

The god described in the Bible is a lying murdering hyporite. I won't repeat all of the other proof of this that other posters have posted. If you want to be a real Christian at least read the Bible - all of it! Then you might find out what this God you glorify is really like! If you like web sites, check out http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ if you want to have a more realistic view.

What I really can't understand is why liberal Christians pick the bits they like from the Bible, and ignore the rest and then claim that all love and all goodness comes from God. By picking the best bits out of the Bible, and rejecting the rest, you are exercising your moral judgement and proving that **people** are capable of deciding what is good and what is not on their own. The Gods that claim to be the source of all goodness and morality set a pretty bad example for the rest of us to follow.

People are the same everywhere you go, there are good and bad people - mostly people have good intentions. You claim to have many friends who have different beliefs. You must realize that Christianity does not have a monopoly on goodness or love, so why do you spend your time promoting such nonsense?

I generally don't like to try to destroy people's cherished illusions. I generally think people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe ... as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Now that last bit is important. I've been a happy atheist for around 20 years now, and I'm happy that you have such positive beliefs and you want to be a good person. I don't normally preach atheism, but I've realized as have many other non-religious people (and religious people too) that we can't ignore religion any more. I don't think you would cease to be a good person if you stopped believing in God, your goodness comes from your human nature that you were born with, not from your religion or the Bible or God. If goodness comes from God, then evil must also come from God.

Illusions and lies cause harm! Ultimately the more we understand and face reality, the better equipped we will be to deal with it and to make the world a better place. Your beliefs, nice and pleasant and comforting as they seem are capable of harming people.

What really scares me about religion is that it makes people place the whims of imagined gods above real issues in the real world. This causes harm. I recently read about a lady who had a serious disease which weakened her bones, and she couldn't walk unaided. She went to be "healed" by a faith healing preacher in one of those mega churches that are so popular in the US. I'm sure the "miracle" strengthened the faith of the congregation. A week later her spine collapsed and she died not too long after. Nobody from the church bothered to follow up what happened to her, and even if they did, I'm sure they would not have bothered to tell the congregation - why needlessly weaken their faith - that would be a bad thing, right? God works in mysterious ways.

I used to think it was a harmless illusion when people thank God for everything good that happens and when something bad happens - it's just bad luck. But now I'm no longer sure. I don't see any gods helping us when we are in trouble. PLHEART has learnt this from bitter experience. God wasn't there helping people on 9/11. God wasn't there helping people when the hurricane hit New Orleans or when the tsunami devastated coastal Asia, although some preachers in the US actually gave God credit for those acts - at least they were being consistent and logical. To their credit, most of them were pretty embarrassed about it afterwards. Nobody could be that stupid and ignorant in this day and age could they?

The point is that by pretending that God is responsible for everything takes away responsibility from us people. By taking away responsiblity from people religion does real harm. When people survive a plane crash, we should be thankful for the engineers who designed the safety features on the plane. We should be thankful to the firefighters who risk their lives to save people. Give thanks to the doctors (many of whom are atheists or agnostics) who study hard to learn about the real world and work hard to save people's lives every day. God is not going to come and save us when we destroy the environment. It's up to us to do something about it.

What annoys me is that the religious are always giving God credit for things he had nothing to do with and blaming a non-existent Satan (created by God to torment us for His amusement?) for their own shortcomings. Get real! Give thanks to those who deserve it! God doesn't need your gratitude. Accept responsiblity for your actions. If you hurt someone, do something about it! Applogise to them! Help fix the problem, do something useful instead of praying to God for forgiveness and expecting God to sort out your problems. I've never seen any evidence that God does anything.

I respect a religious person's right to believe what they want to believe and when I hear people thanking God, I would not normally say anything even though it might irritate me, but the religious don't always show me the same respect, and more and more I can see how much harm religion is doing in the world. It's not just a harmless fiction, it's a dangerous delusion, and I think it's about time we pointed it out. I think relgious freedom is important, but equally important is the right for people to point out that some aspects of religion are a load of nonsense.

DesiringGod.org fan: Your beliefs are entirely based on fiction. Be a good person, love your neighbour, choose the good bits out of the Bible if they inspire you, but please don't promote fantasy as reality. It hurts people.

PLHEART: Hang in there! You're not alone.

Since I'm presching anyway, here's a url if you are interested in a sensible reasons to be a good person:
http://churchofreality.org/ I won't copy the whole site into my post. Look at it if you want or not, you won't burn in hell if you don't or if you do.

Give thanks to those who deserve it. And don't just give thanks, show your appreciation by doing something useful to help someone!

Regards,
Realist

Sorry Desiringgod.org Fan,

I'm afraid you lost me at the first turn here:

"Many skeptics today put little thought into how rational and how beautiful God's love is! He created this universe and MANY scientists believe in Him."

You're talking about an unprovable supernatural force -- an idea which is expressly popularized via belief and ritual, rather than via evidence -- and you're lecturing me about rationality!?

You've asked me to read some stuff, and I have. I'm asking you to read Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion." Among his many well-documented points is the stunning correlation between atheism and being an eminent scientist.

And please don't go the whole "Einstein believed in God" route. Dawkins discusses Einstein's views on religion at length, and he details the history of vicious attacks against him because he didn't buy into the monotheistic tradition.

Are Ms. Quinn & Mr. Meacham afraid of me? Good Golly, you shouldn't be!!! If it weren't for me you wouldn't have people preaching as hard as they are, your point of view!!! I've not been vulgar or un-lady-like!!! If my points are valid then accept them as valid, if you think you can prove me wrong take your best shot!!! But, I think I've given as good as I've gotten & I think there are more of my kind than you'd care to admit out here, wanting to go on with their lives without the burden of "Religious Rightists" & their agenda. Stop worry-ing about me & post what I write & let the chips fall where they will. The best way to weigh a truth is the way that truth is dealt with.

I think gratitude lifts all of us out of the morass of pettiness and self absorption that plagues our lives. It lifts all boats. And I think all human beings know that I am a Christian. God does not need my gratitude. I am the one that needs it.

On one of the previous pages Tom asked for a definition of love. Regarding being thankful, this is what I am most thanful for...

Love is defined by God who is love, and through love, He decided to create man in His image so that they could have a perfect LOVE relationship together.

In order to manifest TRUE love, He had to give man the free will to choose TO love Him or NOT to love Him.

BUT

Man chose to love himself instead of God. Wanting to be his own God, determining what is right and wrong for himself.

BUT

God set out to prove His love and devotion to man by promising to deliver a Savior. You see God is perfect, holy, and just, and he requires the same of those He created, so first He, out of love, gave us a set of moral laws to live by.

BUT

We proved that we are unable to live by these laws to His standards, PERFECTION.

BUT

He did give us a Savior just as He promised. His own Son. “But God demonstrates His love for us in this, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” “Greater Love has no one than this, that He lay down His life for His friends.

You see God ALWAYS makes the first move in proving His love for us. That is why Jesus told us, “"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

That is LOVE!!

Mary:
How are the Fonz and Richie doing?

And I am not sure I am an atheist. I am more likely a Deist who follows the teachings of the Buddha and Jesus. However, I do not believe in this god of the old and new testament, and know little of Islam, but my Egyptian friend that married my sister (what a life I lead) told he has his problems with Islam's teachings.

However "god" may be a pimply faced nerd and the universe a mere computer simulation of which we are a part.

Humbly yours,

Neo

Read them and weep Mary Cunningham:

What kind of people were the first Christians recruited from? Mainly from the "labouring and burdened," the members of the lowest strata of the people.

With its particularly great appeal to some of the poor, Christianity was well positioned to reflect social grievances in an empire increasingly marked by inequality. Slaves, dispossessed farmers and impoverished city dwellers found hope in a religion that promised rewards after death. Christianity also answered cultural and spiritual needs - especially but not exclusively among the poor - left untended by mainstream Roman religion and culture.

http://history-world.org/origins_of_christianity.htm

Nov 24, 1859, Charles Darwin, a British naturalist, published "On the Origin of Species." It was the paper in which he explained his theory of evolution through the process of natural selection.

Darwin was so afraid of the Religious Rightists that he only permitted this to be printed after his death.

[ Chuck: By the way,
Immaculate Conception does not mean Mary was a virgin.
It means she supposedly did not have original sin. ]

I find it interesting that everyone is so sure of what they believe. It will be interesting to see what happens when you die . . . I wish I could be a fly on that wall.

I also wonder who will be going to Heaven if there is one. A non-believer who is a very moral person and doesn't "sin"
OR someone who believes in "him" and keeps "sinning" and then repents.

My vote is for the moral person. If god goes with the one who merely states "I believe in you, wash away my sins" -- I'd rather not have anything to do with that god.

The silver rain,the shining sun,the fields where scarlet poppies run,and all the ripples in the wheat are in the bread that we do eat.

And when we sit at every meal and speak of eartth,we always feel that we are eating rain and sun and fields where scarlet poppies run.

NEO (and his fellow atheists)

Re: Christianity was most popular with slaves.

No, not true. Think about it a little. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and so were his disciples; they were free men, not slaves: craftsmen, fishermen, labourers. Matthew was a tax collector (not a very popular profession then, as now). Where would they go to spread good word? Who would they go to?

The crucifixion showed them it was a wee bit dangerous for them all to stay in the Holy Land; so they spread throughout the Empire travelling to preach to the far flung communities of Jews of the diaspora. It was here, amidst their own people, that the new faith took hold. So--like their founders--the earliest Christians were Jews, but Jews who had been born and lived outside the Holy Land.

Instead of all this useless comparative religion studies we should just have a decent history of religion. Right now the history of Christianity seems to be in the hands of the atheists--and, ehmm, to put it mildly they do have their own agenda. Because I've always felt that the history of a thing equals the thing itself. So my history equals me, the history of Ireland equals Ireland and the history of atheism is what atheism is today.

Is the history of Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving itself? Then it is a religious holiday..in the same way as saying grace before a meal is a religious deed.

I have had absolutely no problem celebrating Thanksgiving in the United States. We celebrate it with family along with the traditional turkey (surrounded by Indian food). The fusion works great.

Besides, I have also been celebrating Christmas with a real live tree, decorating the tree, exchanging gifts, and imbibing the spirit of giving. We do everything except go to the church and attend Mass. I can do all that without being a lesser Hindu. No problems at all. Fanatism about religion is one of the most absurd ways of looking at life.

India has been conquered by the Muslims (Moghuls), the French, the Portuguese, the British, and the Persians--for hundreds of years. Yet Hinduism is very much alive and vibrant in India today. We are not paranoid about losing our identity.

To NEO, VAST LEFT, PLHEART and all:

Many skeptics today put little thought into how rational and how beautiful God's love is! He created this universe and MANY scientists believe in Him. Man's basic problem is that they would rather love the creation instead of the Creator. WHY? Because sinful people (like me) realize that if God truly exists then I might (or will) be responsible for my actions...and one day have to answer to my Creator for how I lived my life. Many people thus ignore God and never THANK Him for giving us life...a life that was meant to bring Glory to the Creator.

You don't look at the Grand Canyon or a Rembrandt painting and say, "WOW, am I good or what?" You praise the artist, the creator. We were meant to praise God, not exalt ourselves. The Bible is full of examples of what happens when mankind turns it back to God. Most don't realize how offensive this is to the One who created them for His glory, not theirs. This rebellion by man is met with amazing grace and love from God. He is not malevolent. He gave you and me breath today, another chance to recognize that life is all about Him, not us.

Dear VAST LEFT:
you wrote:
"Both the Old and New Testament tell us that God's loving us is a means to our glorifying him."

So, God's in this for the ego-trip? Sounds like a rather shallow kind of love.

"God's saving us from self-centeredness so that we can enjoy making much of him forever."

Again, it seems that God is the one who is self-centered. Even if I believed he were real, I don't see why I'd pray to such a god.

Because if there is a GOD (which I believe), He created all and is worthy of worship.
Have you read C.S. Lewis...see my earlier post...Lewis also thought God was selfish at one time, but he came to realize that people always glorify or praise what or who is exceedingly lovely.

On my wedding anniversary, let's say I am going to surprise my wife with a bouquet of roses. I come home, ring the doorbell, and she opens the door. I give her the roses and I say, "Honey, I love you and I have arranged for a sitter for the kids. There is no one on earth I'd rather spend tonight with. You bring me great joy"! What would be her response?

Would it be (with a disgusted look on her face) "Right! Always thinking about yourself...this brings YOU great joy. I can't believe how selfish you are!" OR would it be, (with great joy on her face) "Wow...you got me roses and a dinner date! I love you and thank you for being so happy with me and loving me so much that you would rather be with me than anyone else in the world!"

What happened here? I showed her that I get the JOY and SHE gets the glory! She isn't an egotist. She is glorious to me. She is worthy of my praise! I pursue my joy in making her feel glorious...this is what it means to glorify God.

I pursue my life, my joy in pleasing God. I glorify God by enjoying Him forever. He gets the glory of a humble, Christ-honoring, obedient life and I get the joy of knowing I am pleasing my Creator. I seek pleasure, as I know all people do. I find my greatest pleasure in knowing and loving the God of the Bible...not the ink on the pages, but the Living reality that there IS a God, and that He desires to have a relationship with you and me. He transforms hearts and lives...for His Glory and our joy!

This concept is better explained by Dr. John Piper in his wonderful book entitled "Desiring God".

It would profit your mind and soul to read it and savor the beauty of living a life to glorify the One who is truly worthy of worship. We can't understand the incredible grace He has shown us until we recognize the weight of the ugliness of self-worship to Him.

Perhaps this short article below will help you...Please think deeply about this.
Take care and thanks for writing.

God's Glory and the Deepest Joy of Human Souls Are One Thing
Fifteen Implications

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By John Piper January 1, 1995

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Jonathan Edwards writes:

God in seeking his glory seeks the good of his creatures, because the emanation of his glory . . . implies the . . . happiness of his creatures. And in communicating his fullness for them, he does it for himself, because their good, which he seeks, is so much in union and communion with himself. God is their good. Their excellency and happiness is nothing but the emanation and expression of God's glory. God, in seeking their glory and happiness, seeks himself, and in seeking himself, i.e. himself diffused . . . he seeks their glory and happiness.

Thus it is easy to conceive how God should seek the good of the creature . . . even his happiness, from a supreme regard to himself; as his happiness arises from . . . the creature's exercising a supreme regard to God . . . in beholding God's glory, in esteeming and loving it, and rejoicing in it.

God's respect to the creature's good, and his respect to himself, is not a divided respect; but both are united in one, as the happiness of the creature aimed at is happiness in union with himself.

In his book, God's Passion for His Glory: Living the Vision of Jonathan Edwards (with the complete text of The End for Which God Created the World (Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books, 1998), John Piper offers fifteen implications for the truths cited above.

1. God’s passion for his own glory and his passion for my joy in him are not at odds.

2. Therefore, God is as committed to my eternal and ever-increasing joy in him as he is to his own glory.

3.The love of God for sinners is not his making much of them, but his graciously freeing and empowering them to enjoy making much of him.

4.All true virtue among human beings must aim at bringing people to rejoice in the glory of God.

5.It also follows that sin is the suicidal exchange of the glory of God for the broken cisterns of created things.

6.Heaven will be a never-ending, ever-increasing discovery of more and more of God’s glory with greater and ever-greater joy in him.

7.Hell is unspeakably real, conscious, horrible and eternal – the experience in which God vindicates the worth of his glory in holy wrath on those who would not delight in what is infinitely glorious.

8.Evangelism means depicting the beauty of Christ and his saving work with a heartfelt urgency of love that labors to help people find their satisfaction in him.

9.Similarly Christian preaching, as part of the corporate worship of Christ’s church, is an expository exultation over the glories of God in his word, designed to lure God’s people from the fleeting pleasures of sin into the sacrificial path of obedient satisfaction in him.

10.The essence of authentic, corporate worship is the collective experience of heartfelt satisfaction in the glory of God, or a trembling that we do not have it and a great longing for it.

11.World missions is a declaration of the glories of God among all the unreached peoples, with a view to gathering worshippers who magnify God through the gladness of radically obedient lives.

12.Prayer is calling on God for help so it is plain that he is gloriously resourceful and we are humbly and happily in need of grace.

13.The task of Christian scholarship is to study reality as a manifestation of God’s glory, to speak about it with accuracy, and to savor the beauty of God in it.

14.The way to magnify God in death is by meeting death as gain.

15."It is a Christian duty, as you know, for everyone to be as happy as he can." (C. S. Lewis)

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© Desiring God

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.

Though I am a confirmed atheist, Thanksgiving always has been and remains my favorite holiday. Its expression is through simple acts of togetherness: food, friends, football. By comparison, Xmas has been commercialized and warped into something truly grotesque.

I think this is one of the most unfortunate 'conversations' I have ever read. Religious or not, who cares. If the origins of thanksgiving are religious, okay. Most things around the beginning of this country had some kind of basis in religion and the pursuit of religious tolerance. That's why we can even have a blog like this- disagree and then go on our merry ways...

One of the greatest things about Thanksgiving is that we all have things to be grateful for, you can send that gratitude in whatever direction you want, but don't poison a good thing by over thinking it and antagonizing each other. Enjoy the day, enjoy the food, enjoy the company- say thank you, to God, to your Mother, to your significant other, to your best friend, to your dog... But don't fight about Thanksgiving. There should be one day a year we can all look at each other say This is something we have in common, and we're grateful for that.

In my view, it should be possible to give thanks for the good things in your life. It doesn't matter where you believe those things came from, whether it's deity or fate or some other belief. Whatever the cause, many of those things are out of our control.

I'm 55 years old, have celebrated Thanksgiving my entire life, and was not aware that it is a religious holiday. I would thank you for educating me but unfortunately I'm not a religious person and therefore gratitude is a sentiment I'm incapable of.

Last comment was posted by daniel. Sorry--my first time posting here and I goofed up. Will be more careful next time. I look forward to talking to Syrinx and Believer on future questions.

Thanksgiving has the potential of being a holiday appealing to everyone regardless of whether or not they believe in religion but in order to do so, ironically, we have to ensure that everyone is truly thankful--and how do we do that? I suggest that everyone fast prior to Thanksgiving--in a sense replicate the hunger of the original pilgrims. People might want to divorce Thanksgiving from religion, but it makes little sense unless people are truly thankful. In fact even most religious people, I suspect, are not really thankful simply because we live the life of plenty. The true enemy of Thanksgiving is not religion or secularism but simply our gluttony. We should fast prior to Thanksgiving--in fact avoid meat all throughout the year (except perhaps fish, eggs)--especially turkey--then we might truly have a feast to be thankful for....

In the 2nd paragraph of the article Meacham describes Franklin's "public religion" as

"the broad belief in a God who created the world, who was attentive to history and to prayers, who intervened in the affairs of humankind through providence, and who would ultimately reward or punish men for their conduct. This was the "Creator" and the "Nature's God" of the Declaration of Independence and the God whom George Washington, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson spoke of in their public remarks."

Correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that all 3 of the mentioned founding fathers were Deists. It is also my understanding that Deism posited a "First Cause" or a "Prime Mover" but that this Deist god was also thought of as "the Master Clockwinder". It may have initially set the world in motion but did not intervene in its workings nor mete out justice in an afterlife.

Also, while Washington, Adams and Jefferson often mentioned a Creator or "Nature's God" in their public remarks they were referring to their Deist concept of God NOT the Christian concept of God of which they were highly critical in their private writings. (and some public writings as well, The Jefferson Bible and Thomas Paines later publication "The Age of Reason" for example.)

BTW, great quote from my hero Robert Ingersoll :)

I'd like to Thankyou all for some of the thoughts you have brought to my table. Some of you still don't get it & I don't think you ever will. I understand most of you perfectly well, although you may not think so. I went to a religious school & am well grounded in the Bible. The difference between us is, in those hours when a child, who wants so very much to believe in a thing, finds that those who demanded her allegiance & obedience, & then betrayed her for they own self-importance & gratification & then made her feel that she was not worthy of respect from them or the God they used, that child has to accept those facts as they are laid open before her.
Believe it or not, I still try to talk to Him, I try to say that I'm sorry I no longer trust or believe. But, frankly, I still feel more human walking alone on my path without "Religious Rightists" & their dogma & would much rather continue as I am, free to know, free to feel & free from the limitations you think you have a right to place on my life. "Religious Rightists" try to use the "free expression" clause as a reason to insert religious dogma on everyone else. Please feel free to express yourself inside of your church any way you see fit. But, stop throwing your dogma in my face & demand I accept it in my public life. I will vote for any person for the reasons I feel are best suited to my needs, not a "Religious Rightists" requirements.
The best I can hope for, is that some of you stop yourselves, & ask this question, "Would Christ have really done this to anybody." Most of you know He wouldn't, but, because you think there are more of you "little Christ's" walking around, you can pretty much "do His job for Him". That's why I call you "Religious Rightists", because you are arrogant enough to think you know more than even what Christ thought He meant. Silly aren't you?

John Smith:
I'm not sure that by saying, "I doubt you are interested in hearing the true Christian perspective on suffering," you are truly going to accomplish anything meaningful. If you care to share this "true" perspective, do so in a way that shows you are a recipient of truth, not the creator of it. Any knowledge we have does not originate in our own minds, but is taught or given to us by someone outside ourselves. I'm pretty sure this calls for a vast level of humility. Secondly, what is your basis for this "true" perspective of Christian suffering? If God is there to help you when you ask, as you say, then why did He not help PLHEART when she asked, as she indicated in an earlier post? Perhaps you should be more careful with your words, especially if you are going to speak them so proudly!

PLHEART:

Yes, many SHOULD change how they act, including me. Many, that you call "religious rightists," do act in ways that you describe. However, the actions you describe are not done only by religious rightists, Christians, or any other particular group. They are done by all people in all places. This is a human problem, not a religious one.
This is indeed my point. Though I claim to know what truth is, I do not claim to live it perfectly.
It's easy to target those who believe differently than we do. This goes for Christians and non-Christians alike. Though you differ with me in beliefs, I have not tried to attack the way you behave differently than the way you believe. A person may believe that killing is wrong and then kill someone. That does not mean his belief was wrong, only that he didn't act according to what he believed. Similarly, the beliefs of Christians are not incorrect simply because some act contrary to the Christian message. This, by no means, excuses the "Christian" for his actions, but merely points out that truth does not rely on those who believe or disbelieve it. Does this make sense? I may have worded it awkwardly. I apologize if I have.

PLHEART:

I doubt you are interested in hearing the true Christian perspective on suffering, but I'll try to give it to you in a nutshell anyway--

God created us with free will. He gave us the ability to freely choose or reject Him. The result is that people are free to choose evil, and when they do, they can harm innocents. It is not God who is to blame, it is fallen man, and the devil. God is there to help you when you ask.

In retrospect, it is hard not to feel that the Establishment clause may well have been the great mistake of the First Amendment, in not being worded more narrowly. You cannot have a government "of, by and for the people" that is in hostility to the most important beliefs of those same people. As the power and scope of the federal government has grown, and the meaning of the Establishment clause has been stretched continually by the courts, this kind of conflict has become an increasing, and inevitable problem. If everywhere the government goes, faith must be shut out, and government continues to go where it was not originally intended, the Free Exercise clause becomes increasingly threatened, and rendered nearly meaningless for practical purposes.

That tension is currently not being resolved well, and it speaks to either a flaw in the Constitution, or in current politics. The best answer consistent with the Constitution is more limited government, but those pressing the secular view are also those pressing the expansion of government. Therein lies the problem, and the perceived, and very real, threat felt by people of faith.

What it points out is the intrinsic contradiction that has overtaken and crippled what passes for "liberalism" in America. You cannot claim the mantle of individual liberty while simultaneously being the party of activist government. What we now have is the descendants of both the Federalists and the old Democratic Party crowded in to one Republican Party, and an essentially neo-Marxist party on the left calling itself the Democrats. Jefferson is undoubtedly rolling in his grave, because there is no one left who holds to his views, except a few lonely libertarians.

The frustration of independent voters, "Reagan Democrats", or whatever you want to call them, is based on the fact that what used to be their party has been taken over by people who are essentially the unholy, mutant children of Marx and Nietzsche, the two most dangerous, destructive and misguided thinkers of recent history.

If "secularists" were truly liberal, and truly interested in individual liberty, they would be pressing for ways to allow people to order their lives in accordance with their beliefs, whatever they may be. The first concept that jumps to mind is school vouchers. The Supreme Court has already held that decisions made by individuals with vouchers do not amount to an establishment of religion if used at religious schools. Simply voucherizing education dollars would eliminate a huge segment of the conflicts in this area.

The fact that "secularists" oppose that concept suggests that they are not really interested in individual liberty at all, but rather in controlling schools for the purpose of indoctrinating children into secularism. Of course, the truth has a far more ugly and base element to it-- the Democratic Party is too controlled by the teachers' unions to even consider it.

Yes God should have raised me from the house of the hate I was placed in!!! If He Knew What Was Going To Happen To This Soul & He Wanted To Protect It So It Could Serve Him Better, Then He Should Have Shown This Soul The Love It Deserved!!! What makes me get up everyday? Pure entertainment. Watching what you "Religious Rightists" try & pull on the un-suspecting, & catching you & trying to stop you every damn day!!! Every day, "Religious Rightists" try to take something away from us by those things you've mentioned & every day I find myself saying out loud... NO I won't let you do this... Example: The Dixie Chicks while in Europe had the guts to say that they were ashamed of George Bush & the fact he was from Texas. What did you "Religious Rightists" do??? Well, By Golly Gosh, You tried to kill their careers. You'll burn their records, You'll make sure no one buys tickets to their concerts, that's just how petty You "Religious Rightists" are. Now, mind, Natalie Maines never said she disrespected the "Office of the President of the United States", she said Bush was not a person she admired & therefore was ashamed of him. Yet, You "Religious Rightists" felt you had the right to sit in judgement of her & in the process tried to wreak the living of those who worked with her. Funny part is, More & More People Are Coming To The Very Same Conclusion That Natalie Maines Had. She Was Just Smarter Than The Rest Of The Country & Knew Her Truth Sooner Than Some Of You...!!! Do Any Of You See Yourselves??? Do Any Of You Get It Yet...??? At this moment of history, I swear I'd rather be the soul walking alone as I am on this planet, than aligned with any 1 religion, sect, or group. "Religious Rightists" are natural born killers of the free human heart & mind. You Don't Like How I See You??? Change How You Act!!!

Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. But that doesn't mean that it belongs to any one religion or religious belief.

I use the term "religion" broadly to refer to one's ultimate values or, as Luther put it, "that to which your heart clings, that in which you trust." And for something around 10% of the US population who self-identify as atheists, humanists, agnostics, ratioanlists, or freethinkers, that ultimate value in which we trust is facts and reason. Just because the majority of religions are founded on supernatural claptrap doesn't mean they all are. (Buddhists also object to the official US religion of "ceremonial deism" - camoflaged Christianity - whereby the official loyalty oath of our nation includes an "under God" insertion.)

Reason applied to the objective world, of course, is what we call science. Reason applied to one's inner subjective experience, and without the sort of unwarranted conclusions that supernaturalists insist upon, is rational religion.

A rational person can certainly participate in the spirit of Thanksgiving, but not with the idea of thanking an imagined deity. Yes, that's redundant - all deities are creatures of the imagination. But we do certainly thank all the *other people* that make our way of life possible, as other unbelievers here have pointed out.

Finally, "to feel thankful" is not necessarily a transitive verb. One can also feel thankful without having to feel thankful *towards* anyone or anything else.

Dr. Timothy Gorski, Pastor
The North Texas Church of Freethought
http://www.churchoffreethought.org

He still seems selfish, creating us for his glory and all. Selfishness is the root of all sin. So he still seems like a sinner to me.

Remember, Christianity originally took hold (was popular with) the slaves of Rome. This is history. Such beliefs would play well with slaves who have no control over their lives or explanation for the terrible lives they must lead, always having to obey the whim of the masters and most Romans were a bunch sadistic bastards to start with.

No, I am unconvinced of the details you provide regarding being created solely for the glory of this vengeful god.

Y'all seem sincere. We would probably agree on many basic principles on how to treat one another, but when it comes to how we live our lives I believe it should be in search of the truth (scientific truth as I am too easily fooled by my own senses) and for the betterment of mankind as opposed to the Glory of god.

If we met in person, and I probably with not be challenging your beliefs the way I am on this board, but this board is here to discuss some very basic issues about religion which are not normally done in polite company.

Religion has its good points. For example, by living your life for the glory of god, you have in essence (practically) lived it for the betterment of the next generation of man-kind but also its bad points too. It has repressed and hindered the advancement of science, promoted hatred towards non-believers and at its heart promotes self-hatred.

No, there have been so many horrible things done in the name of religion, that I cannot be a believer of this vengeful god (old or new testament). I would like to say, I have great admiration for Jesus. He was a very cool dude.

To me what we need is a new religion based on the teaching Jesus, of turning the other cheek, and loving our neighbor. Christianity was once new. Before it became subverted by the Romans, early Christians basically took a vow to do good. This is what I believe. We should strive to do good, but so much suffering has been done in the name of this god.

40,000 jews where killed before the Crusaders ever made it out of Europe, the streets of Jerusalem ran with rivers of blood once the Crusaders finally made it and most importantly, it denies the dignity of man and reason.

I need to respect your beliefs, but I must challenge you when, for example, you kill abortion doctors, lynch black people, and prohibit stem cell research based on dogma. However, stem cell research should be done only after a strict set of ethical rules have been established.

I have no formal religious training. I never went to a house of worship as kid. When I was little, I asked my dad to confirm that there was a god, and he told me I should decide for myself when I was older. I think everyone should have that option.

I have found the most guidance from Buddhist beliefs. It took me many years to understand, but finally I got a book titled "buddhism for idiots" and it was simple enough for me to understand and helped me learn how to live a more simple and peaceful life. I am not saying I am a Buddhist for I fail too often to live up to those standard, but it helped me a lot.

I believe in a benevolent god that wants to help me, not one that created me as a slave to live my life for his glory. This is a very dangerous set of beliefs for it garners too much control over people and rejects reason as a guiding force.

Who is right? I do not know. But that is best I can do in expressing my concerns about religion, and the malevalent god that I read of in the Bible.

I believe god killed his son to atone for his sins, not ours, because if he truly created us with all our flaws, he is to blame for our suffering. You see, I have a problem with him.

Peace

PLHEART:
I realize there are about 203 million posts between this one and the last I wrote, but I would like to respond to your response to my post...(you get the picture:0)
I'm not sure there is any way to offer comfort or answers for you in a simple post on a web site, but I'll write what I can and pray that it helps in some small way.
As I Christian, I believe about God the three attributes that you mentioned: omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience. God was indeed there when you were crying out to Him, He knew exactly what was going on (better, in fact than you OR your parents), and He had the power to affect the situation. This is what the Bible teaches about God, and I could not presume to speak WHY God acted the way He did in that situation.
Why do you say, "He should have dipped His Hand in & raised me from this earth?" I'm not trying to sound harsh or insulting, but I'm curious why we assume this about God. God certainly can do such things, but can we assume that He must? Please bear with me through an illustration.
You are probably familiar with the story of Joseph. He was sold by his brothers into slavery to Egypt and through other circumstances (of which he was innocent) ended up in jail. While there, he interpreted a dream given to Pharaoh and became second in command over all Egypt. Because of this, he was able to rescue countless people from a coming famine. In Genesis 45, Joseph, speaking to his brothers, attributes his being sold into slavery to a work of God "to preserve life." (45:5) "So now, it is not you who sent me here, but God." (45:8) In Genesis 50:20, Joseph says, "As for you, you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose, so He could preserve the lives of many people."
Joseph could have asked God why he was allowed to be in slavery or why God allowed him to be in jail, but that fact remained to be seen. However, a great work was brought about because of the things Joseph had to endure.

I'm curious what your "path" is. What are you looking forward to? What is your purpose in life? What causes you to get out of bed in the morning and drag yourself through one more day?

Lastly, I would agree with your statement that Christians want to imbue all holidays with their beliefs. I think this stems from several different motives including: legalism, arrogance, and lastly from gratitude. The first two are obviously errant. The last, however, carries a great potential. As I have grown in my relationship with God, I begin to see more often how He has provided all that I need and much that I do not. Indeed, ALL good things are a gift from God. The Christian "religion," as presented in Scripture, is a total life commitment. It will/should affect every aspect of our lives, including the celebration of holidays. On Thanksgiving, I give thanks to many people for many wonderful things, as you have mentioned. However, I primarily give thanks to God, from Whom all these good things have come.
However, I don't think that Thanksgiving is a necessarily religious holiday! Of course non-Christians can celebrate it. Of course they SHOULD celebrate it. My hope is, of course, that as they give thanks, they will one day, perhaps even today, understand that while they are giving thanks to the many who have encouraged and blessed them, give thanks to God, who is the Ultimate Giver of all good things.
Again, I hope this all makes sense and offers encouragement to all who read it, especially PLHEART. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to read my thoughts. May glory be given to God if it does encourage, and if it does not, may God forgive me for misrepresenting Him. To Him be all the glory, honor, and THANKSGIVING!

Hi Vast Left and PLHEART,

Sorry for the rushed postings but I have been busy with the kids and getting them ready for bed. Vast Left wrote this:

"Have you ever considered the possibility that you were indoctrinated into all this when you were very young or very vulnerable, and that it perhaps may not be better than trusting your own sense of morality?"

No, I was not indoctrinated as a child. I had loving Christian parents, but they did not force me to believe anything...I just watched their lives of loving us and helping others all the time. My beliefs today differ from theirs only in terms of how to become a Christian. If you know theology, they are more Arminian than I am. I have advanced degrees, have lived all over the world, have friends from all walks of life and religions (and agnostocs and atheists too), and I still believe that TRUE followers of Christ are the most humble, loving, self-sacrificing people I have ever known. Before you stop reading, let me say that I agree with you that many who have professed to "know Christ" have not acted LIKE Christ throughout history. I agree that MANY (not all) within churches today are just "playing with an entertainment-drivern, post-modern" group of "church-goers", not true Christians.

I have many friends serving the poor and needy in all parts of the world in the name of Christ. They are sacrificing joyfully so that others will "see" the love of Christ manifested in their daily lives. In my many years of observing human nature, I have seen only TWO kinds of people. Those who live for themselves and those who live to serve others. Time and time again I have seen Christians living the example of serving others. I have great disdain for MOST TV Preachers and others who distort the true gospel of the grace of God. The reason I used a website URL was because I had little time and Piper says it the way I would like to say it to you...in a truthful and loving way.

PLHEART...your questions...Hmmm....this one "Only two or three need be gathered in my name" instead you spend money building great monstrosities to prove your version of God is greater while people starve"

....well, the two or three gathered in my name is speaking about church disciple when taken in context....and the people who are in the "religion business" to make money are a disgrace to the name of Christ...I agree with you. The Christians I admire the most are the ones who are storing up treasures in heaven, not here on earth. I know thousands of Christians who live humble lives and give God the glory for what awaits them in heaven, while still living a joyful life here on eart with little financial means. The church in China is exploding because they are being persecuted. The church grows when it is persecuted...so beware of the "rich Christians"...I agree! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven!

Anyway, all my degrees and travel have taught me to appreciate other worldviews, but when I take a hard look at world religions (including atheism) I have to say the evidence is that Christianity is true. I have studied the Bible in Greek and Hebrew and it truly makes sense....the history in it is true, and the fact that Christianity is thriving is amazing. Jesus was not a military man, nor a ruler, but he willingly died and I have seen him give life and joy and hope to the hopeless.

I hope this helps you...I need to go...good night. Look to Jesus, not "religious rightists" or whatever you call them...look to Jesus alone. He is your answer. (John 3:3)

Take care and Happy Thanksgiving all.

Desiring God, I'd like to believe that this sermon was so that a soul would feel less alone that it should. But, there....there in the middle.... right next to the bits, sits the thing that makes it painful. Instead of addressing the "truthiness" of what I said, sits, this, We only get to God by way of the beliefs you think are worthy. And in the end, a web site with a URL. But, not 1 word addressing the natural truth of those things that Christ is supposed to have really said. Just man-made interpretations. No address to the points that were made, just excuses for why you can't give a true explaination. Stop Using Him!!! He Doesn't Deserve It !!! Even I've got more respect for Him than you do!!! And Yes, had you even taken the time to read some of my previous posts, as a child I do indeed blame God/Christ for leaving a child to stand alone facing evil.

DesiringGod.org,

Was that a slow news day in Dallas? :v)

Seriously, that seems like an unusual thing to see in what sounds like a daily city newspaper.

You implored us to read that article, and I did, and I'm going to give you my honest response:

"the One who died to free you and me from self-love"

How do you know this? Because, as they say, the Bible told you so? Why should I run my life based on a questionably translated old book?

"Both the Old and New Testament tell us that God's loving us is a means to our glorifying him."

So, God's in this for the ego-trip? Sounds like a rather shallow kind of love.

"God's saving us from self-centeredness so that we can enjoy making much of him forever."

Again, it seems that God is the one who is self-centered. Even if I believed he were real, I don't see why I'd pray to such a god.

"Take the cross of Christ, for example. The death of Jesus Christ is the ultimate expression of divine love"

A piece of wood on which someone was murdered doesn't sound like love to me. If someone offers to be killed that way for some sins he expects me to commit, I'll say "no thanks" and take the raps for my own doings. What a horribly guilty thing it would be to try to benefit from such a deed.

"So to vindicate his justice he does the unthinkable – he puts his Son to death as the substitute penalty for our sins. The cross makes it plain to everyone that God does not sweep evil under the rug of the universe. He punishes it in Jesus for those who believe."

Again, this is just terrible. I would never pray to someone who would kill his own son for sins he suspects I would commit.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you were indoctrinated into all this when you were very young or very vulnerable, and that it perhaps may not be better than trusting your own sense of morality?

There are tremendous societal pressures to believe in religion. It's painful to wean yourself out of it -- it can make you feel alone and perhaps embarrassed for having believed, much as people can react badly when finding out that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny isn't real.

I implore you to check out Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion" or Julia Sweeney's book and CD, "Letting Go of God."

I don't think you're a bad person for believing in religion, I just don't think religion is ultimately healthy for us or that it's based on the truth that it claims to be.

I hope you feel that atheists are not bad people for not believing.

I appreciate that you shared your thoughts on this, and I hope you'll find some worth in mine.

Only a few minutes left in my time zone, but I do wish you and all my fellow Americans -- and all earthlings, everwhere -- a very happy Thanksgiving!

To PLHEART and NEO...one last resource for you...this URL below will answer your questions most fully. It has the C.S. Lewis quote that you can relate to. He struggled with some of the same issues...

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/EssentialPiper/1457_Is_God_for_Us_or_for_Himself/

Previous post was for NEO as well...sorry for not addressing it to you. Perhaps this will answer your questions:

Quest for Joy
Six Biblical Truths

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By John Piper January 1, 1995

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Did you know that God commands us to be glad?
"Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart." (Psalm 37:4)

1) God created us for his glory
"Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth,... whom I created for my glory" (Isaiah 43:6-7)

God made us to magnify his greatness - the way telescopes magnify stars. He created us to put his goodness and truth and beauty and wisdom and justice on display. The greatest display of God's glory comes from deep delight in all that he is. This means that God gets the praise and we get the pleasure. God created us so that he is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.

2) Every human should live for God's glory
"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).

If God made us for his glory, it is clear that we should live for his glory. Our duty comes from his design. So our first obligation is to show God's value by being satisfied with all that he is for us. This is the essence of loving God (Matthew 22:37) and trusting him (1 John 5:3-4) and being thankful to him (Psalm 100:2-4) It is the root of all true obedience, especially loving others (Colossians 1:4-5).

3) All of us have failed to glorify God as we should
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

What does it mean to "fall short of the glory of God?" It means that none of us has trusted and treasured God the way we should. We have not been satisfied with his greatness and walked in his ways. We have sought our satisfaction in other things, and treated them as more valuable than God, which is the essence of idolatry (Romans 1:21-23). Since sin came into the world we have all been deeply resistant to having God as our all-satisfying treasure (Ephesians 2:3). This is an appalling offense to the greatness of God (Jeremiah 2:12-13).

4) All of us are subject to God's just condemnation
"The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

We have all belittled the glory of God. How? By preferring other things above him. By our ingratitude, distrust and disobedience. So God is just in shutting us out from the enjoyment of his glory forever. "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

The word "hell" is used in the New Testament twelve times - eleven times by Jesus himself. It is not a myth created by dismal and angry preachers. It is a solemn warning from the Son of God who died to deliver sinners from its curse. We ignore it at great risk.

If the Bible stopped here in its analysis of the human condition, we would be doomed to a hopeless future. However, this is not where it stops...

5) God sent his only son Jesus to provide eternal life and joy
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners..." (1 Timothy 1:15)

The good news is that Christ died for sinners like us. And he rose physically from the dead to validate the saving power of his death and to open the gates of eternal life and joy (1 Corinthians 15:20). This means God can acquit guilty sinners and still be just (Romans 3:25-26). "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Coming home to God is where all deep and lasting satisfaction is found.

6) The benefits purchased by the death of Christ belong to those who repent and trust him
"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out" (Acts 3:19). "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

"Repent" means to turn from all the deceitful promises of sin. "Faith" means being satisfied with all that God promises to be for us in Jesus. "He who believes in me," Jesus says, "shall never thirst" (John 6:35). We do not earn our salvation. We cannot merit it (Romans 4:4-5). It is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is a free gift (Romans 3:24). We will have it if we cherish it above all things (Matthew 13:44). When we do that, God's aim in creation is accomplished: He is glorified in us and we are satisfied in him - forever.

Does this make sense to you?
Do you desire the kind of gladness that comes from being satisfied with all that God is for you in Jesus? If so, then God is at work in your life.

What should you do?
Turn from the deceitful promises of sin. Call upon Jesus to save you from the guilt and punishment and bondage. "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). Start banking your hope on all that God is for you in Jesus. Break the power of sin's promises by faith in the superior satisfaction of God's promises. Begin reading the Bible to find his precious and very great promises, which can set you free (2 Peter 1:3-4). Find a Bible-believing church and begin to worship and grow together with other people who treasure Christ above all things (Philippians 3:7).

The best news in the world is that there is no necessary conflict between our happiness and God's holiness. Being satisfied with all that God is for us in Jesus magnifies him as a great Treasure.

"You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand." (Psalm 16:11)

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Scripture taken from the Holy Bible, New International Version®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by permission of International Bible Society. "NIV" and "New International Version" are trademarks registered in the United States Patent and Trademark office by International Bible Society.
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© Desiring God

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.

PLHEART, You obviously have been hurt by someone or perhaps many who claim to be "Christian". No one is perfect, except Christ. He chose to do His Father's will...to redeem a sinful people. He joyfully bore the cross set before Him. The whole Bible is about Redemption. We sinned. We fell short of the glory of God. God is Holy. You and I are not. We cannot save ourselves. We needed a Savior. God had a plan. And Christ joyfully bore our sin on the cross - Hebrews 12:2 (New International Version)

2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

...this makes no sense to those whose hearts have not been transformed by God's grace through faith alone. I would advise you to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He once had great disdain for the God of the Bible too. His "Reflections on the Psalms" would profit you too.

So, the questions remain, so I'll cut and paste some info that I think will help you if you read it ALL with an open heart:

"The answer I think the Lord gave me was: take them to one verse of Scripture that is as close to the center as you can get and show them why Paul says there what he says.

The verse is Galatians 6:14: "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Or to state it positively: Only boast in the cross of Jesus Christ. It is a single idea. A single goal. A single passion. Only boast in the cross. The word can be translated "exult in" or "rejoice in." Only exult in the cross of Christ. Only rejoice in the cross of Christ. Paul says let this be your single passion, you single boast and joy and exultation. In this great moment called ONE DAY let the ONE THING that you love, the one thing that you cherish, the one thing that you rejoice in and exult over be the cross of Jesus Christ.

This is shocking for two reasons.

1) One is that it's like saying: Only boast in the electric chair. Only exult in the gas chamber. Only rejoice in the lethal injection. Let your one boast and one joy and one exultation be the lynching rope. "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." No manner of execution that has ever been devised was more cruel and agonizing than to be nailed to a cross. It was horrible. You would not have been able to watch it - not without screaming and pulling at your hair and tearing your clothes. Let this be the one passion of your life.

2) That is one thing that is shocking about Paul's words. The other is that he says this is to be the only boast of your life. The only joy. The only exultation. "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What does he mean by this? Really? No other boast? No other exultation? No other joy except the cross of Jesus - the death of Jesus?

What about the places where Paul himself uses the same word for "boast" or "exult" for other things? For example:

Romans 5:2: "We exult in hope of the glory of God."

Romans 5:3: "We also exult in our tribulations, knowing that they produce patience and approvedness and hope."

2 Corinthians 12:9, "Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses."

1 Thessalonians 2:19: "Who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you?"

So, if Paul can boast and exult in all these things, what does Paul mean - that he would not "boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

But what does that mean? Is that just double talk? You exult in one thing and just say that you are exulting in another thing? No. There is a very profound reason for saying this - that all exultation, all rejoicing, all boasting in anything should be a rejoicing in the cross of Jesus Christ.

He means that, for the Christian, all other boasting, should also be a boasting in the cross. All exultation in anything else should be exultation in the cross. If you exult in the hope of glory you should be exulting in the cross of Christ. If you exult in tribulation because tribulation works hope, you should be exulting in the cross of Christ. If you exult in your weaknesses, or in the people of God, you should be exulting in the cross of Christ.

Why is this the case? For this reason: for redeemed sinners, every good thing - indeed every bad thing that God turns for good - was obtained for us by the cross of Christ. Apart from the death of Christ, sinners get nothing but judgment. Apart from the cross of Christ, there is only condemnation. Therefore everything that you enjoy in Christ - as a Christian, as a person who trusts Christ - is owing to the death of Christ. And all your rejoicing in all things should therefore be a rejoicing in the cross where all your blessings were purchased for you at the cost of the death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

One of the reasons we are not as Christ-centered and cross-saturated as we should be is that we have not realized that everything - everything good and every thing bad that God turns for the good of his redeemed children was purchased by the death of Christ for us. We simply take life and breath and health and friends and everything for granted. We think it is ours by right. But the fact is that it is not ours by right.

We are doubly undeserving of it.

1) We are creatures and our Creator was not bound or obligated to give us anything - not life or health and anything. He gives, he takes, and he does us no injustice.

2) And besides being creatures with no claim on our Creator, we are sinners. We have fallen short of his glory. We have ignored him and disobeyed him and failed to love him and trust him. The wrath of his justice is kindled against us. All we deserve from him is judgment. Therefore every breath we take, every time our heart beats, every day that the sun rises, every moment we see with our eyes or hear with our ears or speak with our mouths or walk with our legs is free and undeserved gift to sinners who deserve only judgment.

And who bought these gifts for us? Jesus Christ. And how did he purchase them? By his blood.

Every blessing in life is designed to magnify the cross of Christ, or to say it another way, every good thing in life is meant to magnify Christ and him crucified. So, for example, we totaled our 1991 Dodge Spirit last week, but nobody was hurt. And in that safety I exult. I glory in that. But why was nobody hurt? That was a gift to me and my family that none of us deserves. We are sinners and by nature children of wrath, apart from Christ. So how did we come to have such a gift for our good? Answer: Christ died for our sins on the cross, and took away the wrath of God from us, and secured for us, even though we don't deserve it, God's omnipotent grace that works everything together for our good. So when I exult in our safety, I am exulting in the cross of Christ.

And the insurance paid us $2800 for the car and Noel took that money and went to Iowa and bought a 92 Chevy Lumina and drove it home in the snow. And now we have a car again. And I exult in the amazing grace of so much bounty. Just like that. You wreck your car. You come out unhurt. Insurance pays up. You get another one. And move on almost as if nothing happened. And in thanks I bow my head and exult in the untold mercies even of these little material things. Where do all these mercies come from? If you are a saved sinner, a believer in Jesus, they come through the cross. Apart from the cross, there is only judgment - patience and mercy for a season, but then, if spurned, all that mercy only serves to intensify judgment. Therefore every gift is a blood-bought gift. And all boasting - all exultation - is boasting in the cross.

Woe to me if I exult in any blessing unless my exulting is an exulting in the cross of Christ.

Another way to say this is that the design of the cross is the glory of Christ. The aim of God in the cross is that Christ would be honored. When Paul says in Galatians 6:14, "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ," he is saying that God's will is that the cross be always magnified - that Christ crucified always be our boast and exultation and our joy and our praise - that Christ get glory and thanks and honor for every good thing in our lives - and every bad thing that God causes to turn for good.

But now here's a question: If that is the aim of God in the death of Christ - namely, that "Christ crucified" be honored and glorified for all things, then how is Christ to get the glory he deserves? The answer is that children and youth and adults have to be taught that these things are so. Or to say it another way: the source of exultation in the cross of Christ is education about the cross of Christ.

That's my job: to get glory for Jesus by teaching you these things. And then your job is to get more glory for Jesus by acting on them and teaching them to more people. Education about Jesus is for exultation in Jesus. And if we want there to be no exultation except in the cross, then we must pursue education about the cross - and under the cross.

Or maybe we should say, "on the cross." Education on the cross will lead to exultation of the cross. What do I mean?

Look at the rest of verse 14: "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Boasting in the cross happens when you are on the cross. Is that not what verse 14 says? The world has been crucified to me, and I have been crucified to the world. The world is dead to me, and I am dead to the world. Why? Because I have been crucified. We learn to boast in the cross and exult in the cross when we are on the cross.

Now what does that mean? When did that happen? When were you crucified? The answer is in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." When Christ died, we died. The glorious meaning of the death of Christ is that when he died, all his own died in him. That death, that he died for us all, becomes our death when we are united to Christ by faith.

But you say, "Aren't I alive? I feel alive." Well, here is a need for education. We must learn what happened to us. We must be taught these things. That is why Galatians 2:20 and 6:14 are in the Bible. God is teaching us what happened to us, so that we can know ourselves and know his way of working with us and exult in him and in his Son and in the cross as we ought.

So we read Galatians 2:20 again to see that, Yes, we are dead and yes, we are alive. "I have been crucified with Christ [so I am dead, and he goes on]; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me [why? Because I died, that is, my old rebellious, unbelieving self died, and he goes on]; and the life which I now live in the flesh [so, Yes, I am alive, but it isn't the same "I" as the "I" who died] I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." In other words the "I" who lives is the new "I" of faith. The new creation lives. The believer lives. The old self died on the cross with Jesus.

And if you ask, "What's the key for linking up with this reality? How can this be mine? The answer is implied in the words about faith in Galatians 2:20. "The life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God." That is the link. God links you to his Son by faith. And when he does there is a union with the Son of God so that his death becomes your death and his life becomes your life.

Now take all that over to Galatians 6:14, "May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Don't boast in anything except in the cross.

And how can I become that radically cross-centered - so that all my exultation is traced back to the cross? Answer: realize that when Christ died on the cross, you died; and when you trusted him, that death took effect in your life. Paul says, it's your death to the world and the world's death to you.

Meaning: when you put your trust in Christ, your bondage to the world is broken, and the overpowering lure of the world is broken. You are a corpse to the world, and the world is a corpse to you. Or to put it positively, according to verse 15, you are an "new creation." The old you is dead. A new you is alive. And the new you is the you of faith. And what faith exults in is NOT the world, but Christ, and especially, Christ crucified.

This is how you become so cross-centered that you say with Paul, "I will not boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." The world is no longer my treasure. It's not the source of my life and my satisfaction and my joy. Christ is.

But what about safety in the car accident? What about the insurance payment? Didn't you say you were happy about that? Isn't that the world? So are you dead to the world?

I could be. I hope so. Because being dead to the world doesn't mean going out of the world. And it doesn't mean not feeling things about the world - some negative and some positive (1 John 2:15; 1 Timothy 4:3). It means that every legitimate pleasure in the world becomes a blood-bought evidence of Christ's love, and an occasion of boasting in the cross. We are dead to insurance payments when the money is not what satisfies, but Christ crucified, the Giver, satisfies. When our hearts run back along the beam of blessing to the source in the cross, then the worldliness of the blessing is dead, and Christ crucified is everything.

That is the goal of education for exultation - in the cross. O may God grant us to dream and plan and work and give and teach and live for the glory of Christ and him crucified!"

If you read this entire post, thanks! Take Care.

SEE COMPLETE ANSWER at WEBSITE Below
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© Desiring God

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.

Desiring God...Free Me From Self-Love...??? If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black...!!! I have never seen a "Religious Rightists" do anything but call attention to himself & how GREAT HIS LOVE IS FOR HIS INTERPRETATION OF HIS GOD...How Arrogant Are You!!???!!! "I'm stopping stem cell research to prove I love God more than you seculars love learning".... Just who the hell do you think you're BSin'??? If stem cell research finds a cure for you & whatever illness you find you have 20 years down the road, your sorry back-side will be the 1st in line to get the cure!!! No you don't..!!! You don't get to tell me anything...!!!! You see I remember the most important verse... "Only two or three need be gathered in my name" instead you spend money building great monstrosities to prove your version of God is greater while people starve.... There's another verse in Corithians, "Beware of those that preach & pontificate in the streets,(& I'll add, preaching on T.V.), for they do not necessarily speak the word of the Lord. Radical Muslims are no better either, a Golden Dome Mosque, while their own starve??? And in the end, someone who prays to Allah differently blew it up.... God, when do you all wake-up & smell the coffee...??
And FSC...Why Can't Thanksgiving be about giving Thanks to those who every damn day get up & walk outside & do a day's labor so that all American's feel safe, free, whole & part of this country?
What makes you think they don't deserve Thanks? The Arrogance Is Enough To Take The Breath Away From People Who Actually Think First Before They Panic .... And That's What "Religious Rightists" do, Panic, Because To Believe They Need To Accept Their Limitations On The Human Plane Is Un-thinkable. There Has To Be A God!!! Why Can't It Be Because These Are The Moments Of Human Life & That As Time Passes All Things Must Change.

Dear Desiring:Forgive me if my words seem harsh.

Please answer me this:

What sort of being requires me to kill my first born to show my allegience to him?

What kind of being kills his own son?

Please explain what kind of being denies Moses entry into the promise land after all the sacrificies he made of his tribe?

Why should I live to glorify such a being?

I am not proposing hedonism in place of belief in a deity. I am proposing reason in place of giving up myself to something that seems hateful.

Denying every lasting life for eating from the tree of knowledge? Proposing ignorance to glorify god seems selfish on the part of god and of course, all sin stems from selfishness. Seems to me god is a sinner.

Y'all have killed in his name, committed adultry in his name as well as condoned pedofiles in his name.

Tell me why I should glorify this god of yours.

Thanks

Based on some of the responses, it seems many see 'Thanksgiving' in the limited context of the USA's scheduled holiday. 'Thanksgiving' is a religious holiday for some, a statuatory holiday for others, and just good and/or common practice for a number of others.

I must admit to being rather disappointed by this Question #2 but perhaps answers will lead to something; if it be a recognition of the value and grace in giving thanks for life, lives, living, and all that affords, great. And then how shall we proceed to facilitate further dialogue amongst people of varying beliefs for our collective harmony?

Just wondering. . .

FSC

On this Thanksgiving day, when you have the freedom to Thank God or not, please do not say hateful things about followers of the One who died to free you and me from self-love. True Christians lay down their lives willingly...that others, like you and me, might truly live. If you care to think deeply about what true Christianity is, then I implore you to read the rest of this post.

Thank you!

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The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is

Do people go to the Grand Canyon to increase their self-esteem? Probably not. This is, at least, a hint that the deepest joys in life come not from savoring the self, but from seeing splendor. And in the end even the Grand Canyon will not do. We were made to enjoy God.

We are all bent to believe that we are central in the universe. How shall we be cured of this joy-destroying disease? Perhaps by hearing afresh how radically God-centered reality is according to the Bible.

Both the Old and New Testament tell us that God's loving us is a means to our glorifying him. "Christ became a servant ... in order that the nations might glorify God for his mercy" (Romans 15:8-9). God has been merciful to us so that we would magnify him. We see it again in the words, "In love [God] destined us to adoption ... to the praise of the glory of His grace" (Ephesians 1:4-6). In other words, the goal of God's loving us is that we might praise him. One more illustration from Psalm 86:12-13: "I will glorify your name forever. For your lovingkindness toward me is great." God's love is the ground. His glory is the goal.

This is shocking. The love of God is not God's making much of us, but God's saving us from self-centeredness so that we can enjoy making much of him forever. And our love to others is not our making much of them, but helping them to find satisfaction in making much of God. True love aims at satisfying people in the glory of God. Any love that terminates on man is eventually destructive. It does not lead people to the only lasting joy, namely, God. Love must be God-centered, or it is not true love; it leaves people without their final hope of joy.

Take the cross of Christ, for example. The death of Jesus Christ is the ultimate expression of divine love: "God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Yet the Bible also says that the aim of the death of Christ was "to demonstrate [God's] righteousness, because in the forbearance of God he passed over the sins previously committed" (Romans 3:25). Passing over sins creates a huge problem for the righteousness of God. It makes him look like a judge who lets criminals go free without punishment. In other words, the mercy of God puts the justice of God in jeopardy.

So to vindicate his justice he does the unthinkable – he puts his Son to death as the substitute penalty for our sins. The cross makes it plain to everyone that God does not sweep evil under the rug of the universe. He punishes it in Jesus for those who believe.

But notice that this ultimately loving act has at the center of it the vindication of the righteousness of God. Good Friday love is God-glorifying love. God exalts God at the cross. If he didn't, he could not be just and rescue us from sin. But it is a mistake to say, "Well, if the aim was to rescue us, then we were the ultimate goal of the cross." No, we were rescued from sin in order that we might see and savor the glory of God. This is the ultimately loving aim of Christ's death. He did not die to make much of us, but to free us to enjoy making much of God forever.

It is profoundly wrong to turn the cross into a proof that self-esteem is the root of mental health. If I stand before the love of God and do not feel a healthy, satisfying, freeing joy unless I turn that love into an echo of my self-esteem, then I am like a man who stands before the Grand Canyon and feels no satisfying wonder until he translates the canyon into a case for his own significance. That is not the presence of mental health, but bondage to self.

The cure for this bondage is to see that God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the most loving act. In exalting himself – Grand Canyon-like – he gets the glory and we get the joy. The greatest news in all the world is that there is no final conflict between my passion for joy and God's passion for his glory. The knot that ties these together is the truth that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Jesus Christ died and rose again to forgive the treason of our souls, which have turned from savoring God to savoring self. In the cross of Christ, God rescues us from the house of mirrors and leads us out to the mountains and canyons of his majesty. Nothing satisfies us – or magnifies him – more."

Originally published in Dallas Morning News.
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© Desiring God

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.

Jesus is crying for what the Church(s) have done with his teachings.

Right on Lefty.

These intolerant religious people are hateful at heart like the god they worship. They believe the sun revolves around the earth. We have sent a spacecraft beyond the solar system. Guess what, they did not find heaven.

We have drilled beyond the crust of the earth. Guess what, no hell.

It's time to stand up to these people. Religion is just about power and money and getting people to hate one another.

Theses religious psychos (clinically that's what they are suffereing from) are living in a fantasy world.

Enough is enough. We (anyone with a half a brain) are not going to take it anymore and any politican that has or does pander to the religous right, like Hillary and McCain do not desear our vote.

PLHeart,

Keep the lack of faith, baby!

We have one life to live, and probably no afterlife.

Better to live it being truthful and realistic than cowed or hypnotized.

The Christianists and Islamists and Zionists are drunk with power, and they will keep pretending we're being unreasonable for preferring reality over fantasy.

They also accuse *us* of being intolerant, when it is they who tell us we should have our nose pressed up against the glass when it comes to everything -- now including Thanksgiving -- and that we should just shut up when they use our tax dollars on their faith-based initiatives, when they legislate intolerance toward gays, and they expect us to stay silent while God's own president destroys all that was great in this country.

There are more of them, and they're crazier and meaner (God is love, doncha know?), so it's not a lot of fun taking them on. But the truth, as I've heard, shall set us free.

The question on the table: "Is Thanksgiving a religious holiday? If so, who does one thank and for what? Should non-believers celebrate Thanksgiving?"

The first answer is no. Regardless of the christian tendency to make everything about themselves, the fact of the celebration is that a group of people who were hardly clinging to survival were helped by the natives who taught them how to survive. The people were christians, as are most Americans today, and so they attributed everything to god, like the silly little sheep they were. Let's go ahead and ignore the animist natives who actually provided them the tools to take care of themselves.

The second question, strangely, hinders on a positive response from the first. However, I'll answer it anyway. There are any variety of things to thank and be thankful for. I'm thankful to my wife for being strong and taking care of our children. I'm thankful to my parents for raising me with an open mind. None of these feelings has anything to do with a make believe diety.

As for the last question, the answer is only if they feel comfortable doing so. I know that I couldn't spend thanksgiving with the majority of my family anymore, because I would feel totally out of place as they chant their useless prayers.

A couple from Benjamin Franklin:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."

Dear VastLeft... Boy, I could get to like you in a heart beat!!!! Everyone thinks I'm just hateful person, but, I'm not. I am just sooooooooo tired of walking around like I'm on egg-shells. "Religious Rightists" think they have to take everything away from the seculars, so that the seculars will have bow & accept, or shut-up & hide. Why do you think Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death"? Was it because he wanted the church to rule America? The Founding Fathers were very aware of how the Catholic Church had control over kingdoms all over Europe & how kings & queens ruled those European kingdoms with an iron fist with the aid of the Church. They wanted no part of it, not even in a benign way, like "Religious Rightists" claim they are. But, the "Religious Rightist" like George Bush & the rest of "Religious Rightists" Republican Party aren't benign when they send troops to attack a country that never attacked us, like Iraq. As I said earlier, some soliders were going to die today & indeed on Thanksgiving 3 more soliders have died. What kind of Thanksgiving has this evil soul given to those families? What did they ever do to George Bush that he should have been allowed to kill their children? No.... I think you "Religious Rightists" need to get shaken 'til your teeth rattle around in your heads & maybe even your eyes pop.

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

-- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789)

Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (543)

Deane,

Christianists are very happy to rewrite our religious history, something you warn secularists not to do.

For one thing, you've just turned Abraham Lincoln into a bible-thumper.

Let's let him speak for himself: "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Washington, like most of the founding fathers was a Deist, not a Christian. Since we're apparently never allowed to evolve traditions in this country, it seems un-American that so many of you are Christians.

Washington, if he believed in some very general sort of a creator, had a healthy skepticism about organized religion: "The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes."

Here's what Thomas Jefferson has to say: "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

And: "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

And: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter."

In the 1950s, Christianists had no qualms about rewriting the Pledge of Allegiance, which was written by a minister (who ultimately gave up the church because of its racism), as they shoehorned the line "under God" line into it, so they could violate the founders' vision of a separation between church and state, much as today's faith-based president is doing at every turn.

Because as you've said they've co-opted every moment of joy a person should be allowed to feel without the restriction of religion. They are not going to give us peace, they are going to make war on us 'til we'll have no place left to stand. But, I'd rather be dead than let that happen to me.

Turkey is not a religious holiday! Many religions have co-opted Thanksgiving due to its message of "giving thanks". However, it is not a religious holiday.

Shouldn't be be asking, is Christmas a regular business day or holiday...now that's a legitimate quesion.

Give me a break.

The "Religious Rightists" that you so call Christians, are simply sharing Christ's love for you, so you too could believe in what He did

Hah! sharing Christ's love with their holier than thou pomposity and judgement. What do they know about Christ's love and why are they trying to ruin Thanksgiving, the one holiday we have of unity.

Look, I'm Thankful to those who serve me in my time need & I have needed my friends a great deal. I have reason to be thankful for the police, the fire department, for our Armed Services in places they have no reason to be at. I have needed a doctor & a dentist & I am thankful to them for the goodness of heart they have shown me. I am thankful for the Farmer, who has grown the food I eat daily, I am thankful for the Game Cornish Hen/poultry farmer who raised the Hens I'll be having for dinner, I'm thankful for the butcher, the baker & the candle stick maker. These are people I touch on a daily basis in some form or fashion. Each of them deserve my loving respect. But, I don't require the PRESENCE(correct spelling) of a GOD to tell me what these people should mean to me or their VALUE to my life. Therefore I Do Not Need Your Version Of A God To Learn This. Keep it up "Religious Rightists", you're making me more determined to resist your type of "Christian Rightists" hate with all I have in my free heart & mind.

Definately, to be affected by what is good helps us in determining the realities of life, and from whence life came, and and the purpose of life in the presense of GOD. We seek things because the need is evident to us, so give thanks, and think on why.

Change History??? Why do you think we are fighting you so hard? It's because you keep right on going with "the founders worshipped God, therefore we're going to make you worship God too". Some of those founders were atheists, which is why they tried like hell to keep you seperated from running the Government. I've said before somewhere on this site, when we secular people gave you the "rope" to run this country, you hung us with Mark Foley who didn't know a page he didn't like, you gave us Denny Hastert, who although he micro-managed the House, had the nerve to claim he didn't know what Mark Foley was doing, & your biggest contribution to us was Tom Delay who made deals with Jack Abramoff, who just to add insult to injury stole money from Indians, ancestors of those that saved the 1st pilgrims, & then ofcourse there's George Bush, who has the nerve to claim God told to him run the United States of America. But, Instead of leading America with help of a power greater than himself, he's tried to prove he's greater than that power & ran my country into the ground with a poorly run war. "Religious Rightists" want to run this country, but, so far, the way you've run this country has been a crying shame. So please do not come into my face & tell me you "Religious Rightists" have been anointed by God to run the United States Of America, just because you're a believer. I'd rather trust Bill Clinton with alllllll of his faults than a "Religious Rightists" any day of the week!!!!

Thankyou VastLeft... I did start to wonder if I was out here on my own again. It's not that I begrudge a sincere person wanting to believe in "something bigger", but, why oh why should those of us who wish to be secular be told that Thanksgiving is only for the religious? What breeds this arrogance of "Religious Rightists"???

when you say that believers are o.k. with the ambiguity, for example when we say "God bless America" it must be said that believers (myself) are not ambiguous about who they mean. we know who abraham lincoln worshipped, and George Washington, and that was the God of Abraham. we are o.k. with other people being ambiguous about who they worship (or not). live and let live. just don't legally proclaim that our God is ambiguous and we are o.k. i think that Thanksgiving does not receive the ire of secularists as much as Christmas does because in many public schools kids are being taught that the pilgrims gave thanks to the indians instead of telling the truth that pilgrims gave thanks to God, that is the God of Abraham. Robert Ingersoll's quote about the religion of humanity is erroneous in its premise. that the secularist "....does not believe in praying and receiving, but in earning and deserving. it regards work as worship, labor as prayer, and wisdom as the savior of mankind....." makes these virtues exclusive. statements like these underscore and perpetuate the lack of understanding of secularists regarding believers. there is no stronger belief among believers of the value of hard work, taking care of others, etc.

i agree with john leland, baptist evangelist: let every man speak freely without fear....". you see, the holidays are what they are. their histories are set. they cannot be changed and any attempt to change their meanings will meet with outrage and resistance. however, "let every man ....worship according to his own faith...". secularists are the ones that must learn this lesson. they must accept that America has an intensely religious history but that they are free to worship as they please or not, not to change our history or to force others to eliminate the symbols of our religious history.

Ryan,

"Christians are known by the good fruit that they produce" is a classic example of the "No True Scotsman" argument. For example, if you say "No true Scotsman eats tomatoes," and someone shows you a Scotsman who eats tomatoes, you say "well, that's no true Scotsman."

If ye sow it, ye reap it, and religion as reaped a lot of bad stuff along with the good (and to be sure, there are many, many wonderful people who are belivers).

The suspension of rationality is incredibly dangerous stuff, viz. suicide terrorists, coverups of massive child rape, abortion-clinic bombers, infallible presidents, etc.

We're seeing this argument in the extraordinarily ironic story of Ted Haggard. No matter how you slice it, you have to pretend that homosexuality is totally "other" to a Christian ...or to any person who is concerned with "morality."

He calls Bush every Monday to campaign against gay marriage -- in-between his trysts with his meth-dealing gay prostitute. And the good people of his church are tut-tutting the "sin" of homosexuality, not the sins of intolerance, sanctimoniousnes, and hypocrisy.

Even at the less-extreme level, most of America's Christianists are avid supporters of an administration whose agenda is the polar opposite of Jesus': screw the poor, kill wantonly, never turn the other cheek.

The kneejerk respect religion gets is a sad, sick joke.

When people do good works, we should praise them, whether they are Christians or not.

When people do bad things, we should criticize them, whether they are Christians or not.

And when believers do bad things, you don't get to conveniently pretend away that their religion may have incited, emboldened, or enabled them to do it. Actually, you do get to. But you shouldn't.

To Ryan: Maybe, but, for myself the path I see doesn't require a revelation. I've had enough revealed to me to know that where ever God may be, it isn't here. If there is a God & that God is omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient, the moment I called to Him & said "save me from these people", He should have dipped His Hand in & raised me from this earth. But, He didn't. He wasn't there to protect a child.
But, this subject can be saved for another time. What is important is that I still find that "Christian Rightists" want to claim that all holidays must be imbued with their beliefs, including Thanksgiving, & it's that type of domination that's not excusable.

To PLHEART:

I had to shake my head as I read your post (4 posts up). All too often, I find people refusing to believe in God because of such life experiences. What your parents did was vile, shameful, and inexcusable, certainly not Christ-like. I would say that just because someone says they are a "christian," they cannot be assumed to be so. Christians are known by the good fruit that they produce. Yes, there are many who claim to be Christians, and may be so, but we cannot assume that they will cease doing selfish, sinful things.
I'm reading back through what I've written and it may not make sense, so I'll try to sum it up. The life that God calls us to in Christ is detailed in Scripture. Though many, indeed all, Christians will continue to do sinful things, we have a hope that one day, we will be made perfect in Christ. What we, as Christians, do now is pray that God's grace is given to us to make us more like Christ, AND that in spite of our vile, sinful filth, God's Name is made known as it is in Scripture.
I hope that makes some sense. I feel a deep sorrow for what your parents put you through as a child (especially since they claimed to be Christians). My prayer is that God will heal your hurts and make Himself known to you (as He truly is and not as some "Christians" make Him seem). On this day, I am thankful that I was given the opportunity to write this post to you. If God's character is made known through it, they may His name be praised. Otherwise, may He find it appropriate to correct me and show all of us the truth about Himself.

K.W. I like the "in the essentials, let there be unity, in the non-essentials let there be liberty, but, in all things let there be charity".... Probably, the most sane thing I've seen written in quite some time. I hope your Thanksgiving is filled with hope.

Why not? We all have something to be thankful for no matter how dire our situation may be.

Thanksgiving, is an opportunity. It is a time to reflect upon this earth and it abundance. It is a time to be at awe of the miracle of life. It is a time to be grateful for human goodness. Here is a chance to propagate the compassion, civility, and tolerance that has existed from time to time in this world. Whether it be from natives to immigrants or writer to writer. It is a time to seriously consider the suffering that does and has existed in this world and begin to actively ask what can I do to start to relieve such suffering and to heal past wounds. Action has much to do with gratitude. Vindictive words do little to relieve suffering. Merely talking about problems do not solve them. We have such a great abundance in America, how are we doing as individuals at sharing it? There are venues where one hundred percent of the donations arrive in the hands of those who need it most. There are abundant opportunities to help in our own communities. For most of us, we are hampered in our giving only so far as our attitude is concerned.
Someone once said that in the essentials, let there be unity; in the non-essentials; let there be liberty; but in all things let there be charity. Let there be no compulsion in religion; but what is religion except a particular paradigm of living. So too let there be no compulsion in Atheism or Secularism. As the Ten Commandments or words for the Holy Koran; or the council of Buddha ought to be respected as it adorns an edifice or the printed page, so too we ought to respect the messages of the secular world as they adorn our billboards and popular media. Let each man subscribe to the message that suits him best. Let each man and woman choose for themselves whether to worship God and give thanks to Him; or let them choose otherwise. However, let us never forget that choice can never be completely separated from consequence and let us choose those things that will bless mankind. And if we are religious let us be better at living everything in our religion that is good and lifts other blesses people. Those who are truly grateful will take time to acknowledge the powers that have brought them what they have.
If there really is a God in heaven, and everything that I have experienced on this earth tells me that there is, let us offer our thanks to Him for all that we have, and then show that gratitude by helping others.

Chuck: No I didn't call you "Righteous"... I called you a "Religious Rightists".... And if what "Religious Rightists" do to those who do not believe the way "Religious Rightists" want is called LOVE, I'd rather be left alone. If demanding that a person goes to a certain church, or believe a set of religious rules, or be sent to that religion's version of hell, I ain't buyin' it. Ya see I was raised by a set of people who by day claimed they were religious, but, by night drank like fish, beat their kids, molested the girl children & in general were just plain hateful people. I used to pray every night that God would rescue me from my parents. When He didn't I decided that was not the type of God I needed anymore. And that is the type of God "Religious Rightist" expect me to accept. Only I look at those ooooohhhhh so righteous preachers like Ted Haggard & see the same sort of secret hate that almost buried me alive. God knows He left me in a place I shouldn't have been left in, He knew I wanted to believe in Him, He knew that to keep my soul whole all I needed was to be rescued from that hate. But, a 12 year old girl wasn't important enough to be rescued. No, you keep your God & let me find my life path as I see it unfold before me.

"Religious Rightists", to PLHEART ........

Jesus died for the "sinner". He came for the "lost" not the rightesous. A Christian is simply one who believes that Jesus (God in the flesh) born of a virgin (Christmas), came to Earth to die for our sins (Good Friday). He was in a tomb for 3 days and rose on the 3rd day (Easter) as He defeated satin and death and ascended into Heaven. In the book of Revelation, all end-time prophecies have come true. And now, all Believiers (Sinners saved by Grace), await his glorious return for the "church" called the rapture.

The "Religious Rightists" that you so call Christians, are simply sharing Christ's love for you, so you too could believe in what He did for ALL on the Cross and have eternal life (John 3:16, and many others), because after the Rapture, unbelievers will suffer a tribulation period lead by the "anti-christ" and God will begin is judgement on his followers.

In the old testament, God commanded His cosen people to make a blood sacrifice for their sins before the high priest as a "symbol" of repentence. This requirement was to have an "unblemsihed" lamb sacrificed for their sins on a weekly basis. Prophets, like Isiah, 700 years before Christ was born, told the people of a "king" that would take away the sins of the world forever. That king was and is Jesus Christ. Jesus is of course in the Bible and mentioned in the Koran hundreds of times.

I am a begger telling another begger that I have found bread. The bread of life, in Jesus Christ.

And above all things (food, money, etc.), I am thankful to God for giving me a way to eternity through his Son Jesus Christ (John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)

Thanks goes to a real God, not a statue, not me, not my family, not my boss, not my president. All blessings and the "right" to simply breathe comes from God, who whether you believe or not, created you and knows the number of days you have left to come back to Him....... if you believe.

So, you call me righteous? I have sinned just like you. I simply repented (daily), and believe in a Savior that has saved a wretch like me,

God Bless.

My personal God is Mother Nature. Who else would deserve my thanks for the bounty we celebrate at Thanksgiving?

Jai,

I think you've missed the point about what non-believers are saying here.

You say: "Same with Thanksgiving. It is a part of the great American heritage and celebrating Thanksgiving signifies showing respect for America and Americans."

So far, so good. That's exactly what *we're* saying!

The topic of this thread attacks that ideal, as it questions whether non-believers are really part of this tradition.

"Let us not denounce every celebration because it emantes from some religion."

Few, if any, of the commenters are denouncing Thanksgiving -- we're embracing it, as we have our whole lives. But now we're being advised that, no, it doesn't belong to all Americans, because it's a supposed religious holiday.

*Instead let us enjoy all religions.*

Why should we? The biggest problems of the day stem from religion: a president who attacked the wrong country because Jesus told him to, two skyscrapers full of innocent people destroyed because Allah told some Saudis to, and all three major monotheistic religions bringing the world to the brink of destruction in the battle to find out who was really chosen to own the "Holy Lands." And should we be thankful that the march of American freedom is being stunted because some gay-basher wrote or translated Leviticus?

If the day ever comes that people repudiate religion, that will be one more thing to be thankful for.

I'm thankful for a great many things in this most-fortunate and oft-noble country, but religion ain't one of them.

My thoughts:
If you are a Christian you are going to celebrate as a Christian, if you are an atheist you are going to celebrate as an atheist, but chances are you are going to take advantage of the day to be with friends and family and you will be thankful, i will be thankful to God, in the name of Jesus.

Happy Thanksgiving and Blessings to All

Good Golly ..... Again you blame secular people??? If it weren't for you "Religious Rightists" turning everything into an "us or them" fight, this country would be just fine. Look at how the question is worded for God's sake. "Should non-believers celebrate Thanksgiving?" Where in the SAM HILL do you get off making even this holiday just about you??? "Religious Rightists" make every holiday a big PAIN IN THE ASS. If seculars were to try & make December 22, the 1st day of winter, a holiday just for seculars, you "Religious Rightist" would throw a fit, & claim we were practicing witch craft. Stop trying to make us walk your walk & talk your talk...!!!

I find it interesting that some find this discussion as divisive and irrelevant. Perhaps this stems from our inclination not to respect other perspectives, and points to the continued need for us to strive for tolerance. Yes, I get angry at intolerance, whether it’s from the religious right or any group. But, at the very least, I give “thanks” on this day and every day for living in a country where we have the freedom to express personal views without fear of being gunned down. Frankly, I enjoyed reading each and every posting here along with the diversity of thought. Wasn’t at all divisive or irrelevant for me. I learn from it all. “Thanks!”

In 1863, President Abraham Lincoln established a national holiday in the United States as “a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father.” So in answer to today's question, in the beginning at least, Thanksgiving day was meant to be a national holiday. However, considering today's attitude of hostility by secularists in this country toward any overture to religious symbolism, I doubt the day will be recognized by government entities as a holiday very much longer.

-PLHeart
>“They [Native Americans] deserve more from us >than they have gotten. We should begin with >Thanksgiving.”

While I agree, sadly, it “begins” and ends with Thanksgiving.

All in all a stupid question, anyone can “celebrate” any day. And as with all the holidays, the original purpose(s) has been usurped by Bunnies, Elves, fireworks, and in this case, football, gluttony and travel.
So while the “religious” may mumble a little “grace” (how ironic a term) before stuffing their face, this is *hardly* a religious holiday.
Quite simply it’s just another example of America misrepresenting history and covering it up. Mass genocide? Nah, let’s pretend it never happened! Pass the potatoes!

As usual it’s the religiously bent that post insults/with irritating tone.

One can enjoy and participate in all religions without being religious. I am no a Christian but in our house we put the Christmas tree with a Cross and Star of David. I have gone to Catholic churches and partaken of the wine and bread and prayed with the Catholics, this despite being a Hindu agnostic. I am showing both respect for catholics and enjoying Catholic liturgy.

I go to my temple and sing the Hindu hyms. For the same reasons as above.

I am participating in religion as part of our great human heritage.

Same with Thanksgiving. It is a part of the great American heritage and celebrating Thanksgiving signifies showing respect for America and Americans.

Let us not denounce every celebration because it emantes from some religion.

Instead let us enjoy all religions.

Because "Religious Rightists" want to believe that the planet came into being because they said so!!! Therefore everything that has happened to this planet, is of their belief. There are moments where I wish I could shake these people 'til their teeth rattled inside their heads. But, it wouldn't work, some force has to come to this planet, tap them on the shoulder, & say, "we did what we did to you, so you would use the "upper" part of your brains." Even then they would use "hooodoooo" to scare us into believing that they were the only one's who talked to "the force" & thus hold us back from knowing who that force is & what that power is.

Re: "Another horrible, divisive question! Thanksgiving was and remains an occasion to give thanks to God."

That's a major wow! The question is divisive -- not because it's a moronic question that's gratuitously insulting to atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists who have happily enjoyed this American holiday until now -- but because... what again?

I'm not sure there's much to discuss here, but I'll throw in my two cents. As with many who've already posted, I think that while the holiday has religious roots, it's not a religious holiday. If a person of any faith passes through any day without giving thanks through their religious practices, they've probably missed the boat a little, let alone reserving the giving of thanks to one day a year.

Thanksgiving is the coolest holiday. Stuffing is good. Turkey is good. Punkin' pie is good.

I'm waiting for the war on Christmas to start this year (I'm again' it). I (an atheist) think that that's what Jesus would do (Santa, too). This should be fun.

Wait just a minute. Thanksgiving is not about me? Are you really telling me that something out there is more important than me and deserving of my thanks?

After all I let you in on a little secret, Jesus spelled backwards is suseJ.

I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving and enjoy the blessings that God has given whether you believe in Him or not. The religious heritage of the holiday is hardly the issue; in fact the argument is trivial.

It is one time that people can share a table, eat a ton of food, laugh way too much, and take a nap while reflecting about how many things we all have to be thankful for. I am a Christian and chose to give my thanks to God. You also have a choice, just thank somebody else besides yourself.

Excuse Me???!!!??? I think it is the On Faith people who want to bully people into embracing God as the reason for Thanksgiving!!!! We either believe that it was ONLY God who helped the Pilgrims survive through the winter & spring & summer to a harvest with absolutely no thought to what the Indian's gave!!! Just how arrogant are you "Religious Rightists"?

Another horrible, divisive question!

Thanksgiving was and remains an occasion to give thanks to God. "On Faith" evidently wants to pick fights over the free exercise of this occasion and bully people who do believe in God into embracing --- who knows what.

What is this section about? Faith, or baiting people who have it?

You blew it yesterday, you're blowing it again.

Please, enough with the insults. It's time to shut this one down. The Post has never respected people of faith. This me-too effort is shameful and embarassing!

Tony:
Happy Thanksgiving.

Tony:
And whose got might that be? The God of the Deists or Isis or Zeus, and remember God spelled backwards, is Dog.

Just pointing that out with all the "secret" interpetations we get from the Religion Right about what the Bible means, like evolution is impossible and the sun revolves around the earth.

Well Bob, You may be right. But since the Indian did let them stay, we need to begin to properly ask the Indian to forgive our hatefulness towards them. They deserve more from us than they have gotten. We should begin with Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving in not remotely a religious holiday. The dirty savage "pilgram" people who landed with the Mayflower were a disgrace to humanity, an insult to the original peoples they soon sold into slavery.

Thanksgiving is a tribute to those native Americans who so innocently (and stupidly) helped these floundering English people survive. Any thinking warrior would have slaughtered them before they could learn how to plant corn.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Good for you Cynthia. At least you see the tree for the forest.

I am devided about Thanksgiving. I think of it as a comng together to celebrate friends and family. Giving thanks should happen daily, Otherwise, we might focus too much on negative aspects of our lives. I have never thought of thanksgiving as religious. And there are disturbing thought connected with our countrys history and the treatment of native Americans. So, I just celebrate it as a family tradition.

Because Mo, "Religious Rightists" think they have the monopoly how who's religion should be recognized, & I yes I include the "Radicals" of your religion. The murder of the Christian Cabinet Member of Lebanon is ample proof to me that Radical Muslim's will not recognize Christian's rights to be part of the country of Lebanon & it's government. "Religious Rightists" are just to scarey.

I am a muslim who LOVES thanksgiving. I am offended that Islam wasn't a religion mentioned in your list - why would you leave it out?! For me, thanksgiving is all about enjoying great good and good times spent with family and friends. That's not religious, that's just human nature.

Being an old(74) Jewish man I have come to the conclusion that the bible, obviously written down by old Jewish men has to be the greatest story ever made up. Since Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday it definely requires a "to whom thanks is given." I have decided that giving thanks to all those wonderful human beings who have made my life better for all these years from grandparents to parents to aunts, uncles, cousins, wife,sons, daughters-in-law, grandchildren, teachers, professors, protectors such as soldiers, sailors. marines, firefighters, police,drivers of buses trains, planes and streetcars,farmers,snowplowers,and all the other good people who make up, along with me, the human race.I am fine with those who feel a supernatural presence is necessary and do not argue their feelings.But for me the greatest glory is in the imperfect but continued struggle of humanity to get it right even though there are many of us who would rather be greedy, evil, powergrubbing, or just generally miserable specimens. I just wish humanity was able to figure out who these people are before it surrenders it's freedom to those who would steal it for their own agenda.

Just for the record, the first response got it wrong - the first "official" Thanksgiving was in Jamestown, VA, one full year before the "pilgrims" arrived on the Mayflower. That's all.

I'm sooooooooooo tired of genuflecting & kissing the ring of the "Religious Rightist". Get Over Yourselves. I don't care anymore whether you're Christians Rightists or Radical Muslims, there are just tooooooooo many other more important things going on with this planet that need attention. Some of which I might add I really could lay at both of your door-steps because some of it is your fault!!! Both Christian Rightists & Radical Muslims attempts to control great parts of this planet has caused more destruction of this planet than Noah's Flood. Both of you leave death & destruction where ever you choose fight each other & nothing is ever allowed to grow clean & free again. No, I don't like "Religions" or "Religious Rightists" of either stamp.

Chuck Chuck Chuck Chuck.... Good Golly... So therefore because the Pilgrims said, "In the name of God", we're supposed to bend backwards & give to "Religious Rightist" the right to dominate Thanksgiving? Where do you all stop & When do you all stop? Why isn't it good enough for a secular to celebrate the great harvest of our country.
We have little enough to celebrate in this country this year. Families will not be truely celebrating this year because their sons, daughters, husbands & wives are in Iraq & some will probably be killed on Thanksgiving Day. Families will not be celebrating this year, because either their jobs have been taken from them & sent over seas to a Chinese sweat shop, or be given to an illegal alien because the illegal alien will take less money to do the job.
If a secular person can find a reason to celebrate Thanksgiving & he isn't inclined to blame God for the mess this country finds itself in, be glad.

Gee folks lighten up.

Be thankful of whatever you have. Friends, family, food on the table. My gosh we have so much here in America!

And you Liberals that belittle all that;
Be thankful for a Bush to bash.
An economy that's fine.
Freedom to critizise Christians (And everyone else for sure).
Freedom to pork your buddy's bung and catch a nasty disease.

Be glad you got the day off for free.
Did I hear you sneeze?

Thanksgiving is and should be a holiday for every American (and other nationalities who also celebrate this or a similar holiday) to be brought together by the common feeling of thankfulness and a need to pass on the good that has come our way to those who need it most.

For those who believe in God(s), they should definitely be included, since, for example, I believe that God has at least an influence in the good things that have happened to me. But there is no reason for athiests or agnostics to feel left out even if our expressions of thanks tend to be aimed at a deity. There's still plenty to be thankful for--whether it's to your parents for loving you or to your 11th grade teacher for guiding you on the career path that has brought you happiness.

No matter what you believe, or what demographic you fall under, you have probably been blessed/lucky/happy in some respect. That is what thanksgiving comes down to in the end. It's a holiday about optimism, looking at the good that we have for once instead of what we don't have (that can wait for the day after when we go shopping). It is a harvest festival, but it's so much more than that. It's made complete when we make sure to give time, money, and goods to charitable causes during this season to ensure that others are blessed/lucky/happier too.

You don't have to believe that a specific God gave you your blessings to count them and be glad about them. It's a holiday that has managed to bring various faiths together on the common ground of these good feelings, and good food. There's no reason it should therefore disinclude those of no faith.

I suggest reading the "first Thanksgiving proclamation" which starts with "The Holy God..."

Of course non-believers can celebrate Thanksgiving. It's a time of "giving thanks" and there are a lot of non-divine people around to give thanks to. It's like asking if non-believers should ask forgiveness, if they don't believe that there's a god to ask forgiveness of.
"At the time of Christ, there wasn't the concept of 'religion', you either believed or you didn't believe. While Jesus was here he warned us of false prophets & doctrines. And 2000 years later 'man' has setup many religions based on these false prophets & doctrines (Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Mormanism, Jehovah witness, Scientology, etc.) that has misled billions of people."
No, there was very definitely the concept of religion. The Romans, for instance, had a pantheon that they had linked to other pantheons like the Greeks' (Diana=Artemis, Minerva=Athena, &c.).
Read your Bible. There was clearly a concept of religion when God said that he'd destroy all of the lesser gods of other tribes, or when the Jews were told to worship no other god above Yahweh, when Esther's husband outlawed Judaism, when Ruth said that she'd take the god of her mother-in-law--and that's just in the Old Testament. The New Testament has references to different religions all over the place. Kinda hard to convert people to Christianity if they didn't have religions before that, huh?
Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons *are* Christians. And Hinduism, just to take one example out of the list, was around way before Jesus is claimed to have been born.

Asking the question of the religiously inclined, not surprisingly, garners uniform answers. Apparently, the superstitious cannot imagine a form of humility or gratitude that does not reference a divine Creator.

I find that lack of imagination sort of sad.

After printing out this thread and reading it, I was idly thinking of the passage that says: "Enter his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." (Ps 100:4) (KJV)

When I ran into a comment above that thanksgiving isn't in the scriptures, etc., I looked it up in Cruden's Concordance and found over two dozen references to thanksgiving in the, if you will please pardon the expression, Bible. This was purportedly written by King David, hundreds of years B.C., so the Christians don't even have dibs.

I just checked the searchable Koran on the Web and found no "thanksgiving" but 25 "give thanks".

I grew up in the DC area, so I frequent the Post and found this forum to share my thoughts. Appreciate the ability to do.

I wanted to remind everyone that the 1st Thanksgiving was held in the name of Jesus Christ by the pilgrims of the "New World", in which they gave thanks to Him who provides all of our needs including the hope in eternal life through the belief in Him and Him only (John 3:16, John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)

At the time of Christ, there wasn't the concept of "religion", you either believed or you didn't believe. While Jesus was here he warned us of false prophets & doctrines. And 2000 years later "man" has setup many religions based on these false prophets & doctrines (Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Mormanism, Jehovah witness, Scientology, etc.) that has misled billions of people.

So as we reflect on Thanksgiving, I ask who are we really giving thanks to? Hopefully to the one and only true Living God.

To your other comment about gay marriage. Society, with the help of the devil, has twisted this sin-wrong doing, into a "civil rights" debate. We are degressing into a society of immorality to the point of wrong is right & and right is wrong (this by the way is an end-times prophecy in the book of Revelation), which will utlimately destroy & separate our nation. Societies & nations such as the Romans, Sodom & Gommorah, the Greek Empires, have all been down this road and have fallen.

Our country is in dire need of a "great awakening" to the truth that our forefathers founded this great nation, which was founded on the Holy Bible (God's Word).

Happy ThanksGiving.

Please journalists, why try to drive a wedge into a truly all-Americans holiday? What purpose do you try to serve? Thanksgiving is about what needs we all share, and what human qualities bring us together. We need more help with that, not more attempts to divide. On Thanksgiving, write a story about bridges, not about gaps.

this is just a profoundly stupid question. if you're religious, then thanksigiving is likely going to incorporate some praise of god for his merciful bounty. if you're not, then it's going to be a celebration of the good in man.

should non-believers celebrate thanksgiving? are you brain-dead? this is a question that tickles the mind of a washington post reader? are you kidding me?

Why don't you ask your self. How did Thanksgiving occur. I'll tell you how, by killing Indians, taking their land and calling their land our land.
We should thank God everyday for what we have.

I'm Canadian. We have our Thanksgiving on the 2nd Monday of October. One could say Thanksgiving is religious; but 'spiritual' is an even better expression or reference,for me. One can thank their God, or one can thank nature for her bounty; and one can even thank the thousands of people who make sure we have the bounty, not just on Thanksgiving, but all year round! About 3 years ago on an inter-city bus heading to Toronto; two 20 somethings guys were together and chatting, about the Labour Day. Their next holiday they knew, was Thanksgiving (Canada). One asked the other 'what's it about!' My instinct might have been to 'lecture' them; but I didn't. They'll learn. Especially if they are students living away from home. They'll go home for Thanksgiving, have their turkey and trimmings; all thanks to Mom and Dad!

Thanksgiving, if religious, would join a long list of other western holidays that co-opted "pagan" holidays.

Christmas is celebrated not at the time Jesus was born (according to dates in the Bible) but at mid-winter, using much of the same symbols as the Yule--green and red colors, candles, etc.

The "Easter" bunny and its eggs (?!?) are non-Christian symbols of fertility and the spring equinox.

As pointed out, the celebration that almost every American family has at Thanksgiving is a traditional harvest, or fall equinox, festival foods and gathering together against the coming winter.

I'm pretty tired of Christians usurping pagan holidays and then insisting that others acknowledge the Christians roots of them.

Move "Christmas" to the spring to a more closely approximate date of your saviour's birth and give me my Yuletide back.

Just a little Thanksgiving Story. When I was in the Air Force I was stationed in Turkey in the early 90s. When Thanksgiving rolled around we had a unit pot luck luncheon and our commander invited a group of Turkish visitors to attend. They loved it and ate up all the (clearly labeled) ham which I thought was pretty funny since they were all Muslims. A month later I was asked to help judge the transportation squadron's Christmas door decorating contest. All the employee's of that squadron were Turkish but they totatlly got into decorating their office doors with scenes of the Nativity, Santa, Etc... I got a big kick out of seeing them share our holiday.

Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday and shouldn't be made into one by overzealous Christians. I agree with "GT" 100% that it is a harvest festival and all people, regardless of belief, can celebrate it. If anything, it's Pagan.
The modern version of the American Thanksgiving tradition is obviously different from the first Thanksgiving - I doubt the Pilgrims and Indians ever thought Thanksgiving would become synonymous with getting stuffed, watching football, and falling asleep on the couch.
Almost every country has their own Thanksgiving day, but the U.S. is the only country that has made it into a 4-day weekend every year. And for THAT, I am thankful.

To best of my knowledge you will not find any reference to Thanksgiving in any scriptures, bible, koran or other religious teachings.
It is all fine and great for a politician to proclaim it is so, however I would comment that God, Jesus, and most religious figures did not take kindly to politicians.
Further, no one was there handing out loaves of bread nor fish.
It was heathen indians who saved the Pilgrims lives after they, as do modern day Americans, had squandered all their ressources with no regard for the future. For their efforts (the Indians) the following generations, under the guise of God no doubt, proceeded to slaughter the same Indians and confiscate their lands and culture.
Maybe this is someones idea of a religious ritual or experience but I do not really think that God, Buddha and/or Allah could possibly condone such behavior.
So please recognize this for the RARE event that it is, an act of kindness from one man to another.

Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday. It is a day we have sanctioned to celebrate harvest. To give thanks to God is something we should do everyday, not just one day a year. If we reflect on just being able to respond to this question and still be in the land of the living I would say that is what we give thanks for. Thanks for being given that God-given ability to be creative, be unique in our oneness, wonderfully fashioned in His image, caring, loving, are all God given attributes th thank God. For the unbeliever how can they give thanks when they don't know the Ultimate One to be thankful to.The heart of the whole matter is that as salvation is open to all of us, so is thanksgiving.

In Tibetan Buddhism there is a practice called Tonglen which Pema Chodron describes as "...the [meditation] practice [of] taking on the suffering of a person we know to be hurting and who we wish to help. For instance, if you know of a child who is being hurt, you breathe in the wish to take away all the pain and fear of that child. Then, as you breathe out, you send the child happiness, joy or whatever would relieve their pain. This is the core of the practice: breathing in other's pain so they can be well and have more space to relax and open, and breathing out, sending them relaxation or whatever you feel would bring them relief and happiness."

As the holiday of Thanksgiving is celebrated only in North America (a region of the planet abundant with food, wealth, and opportunity), maybe the human race would be better served if instead of focusing on WHO to give thanks to, we acknowledged our good fortune and contemplated on those of us who are less fortunate and how we might be able to help alleviate their suffering.

May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness;
May all be free from sorrow and the causes of sorrow;
May all never be separated from the sacred happiness which is sorrowless;
And may all live in equanimity, without too much attachment and too much aversion,
And live believing in the equality of all that lives.

Why shouldn't they celebrate? Thanksgiving in this country has religious roots - but it has cultural roots in harvest festivals common to pretty much every faith, and to those of no faith as well. Gratitude is a healthy emotion, and it doesn't require a divine recipient.
I've always thought of Thanksgiving as a holiday when all Americans can unite and be together in gratitude, and a holiday to bring families, by birth or choice, together in a loving meal. I may give thanks to the Blessed Mother and Father - another may thank Christ, or Adonai, or Allah, or the Spirit of Living, or those fellow humans who worked to grow and prepare the food and bring it to our tables, or to the animals and plants that gave their lives that we might eat. Or some combination of the above. That doesn't matter, as much as the gratitude, the love, and the shared celebration of togetherness and thankfulness for the abundance which we have. (And, I might add, a time to take the opportunity to share that abundance - of food, family _and_ love - with those who lack one or all of them.) That's the heart of Thanksgiving, and it's open to all of us, of whatever faith or no faith.

The Mayflower Compact, along with the Walum Olum, one of our (American's) oldest documents.

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

THANKSGIVING DAY - 1930
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION
Notwithstanding that our forefathers endured the hardships and privations of a primitive life, surrounded by dangers and solaced only with meager comforts, they nevertheless bequeathed to us a custom of devoting one day of every year to universal thanksgiving to Almighty God, for the blessing of life itself and the means to sustain it, for the sanctuary of home and the joys that pervade it, and for the mercies of His protection from accident, sickness, or death.
Our country has many causes for thanksgiving. We have been blest with distinctive evidence of divine favor. As a nation we have suffered far less than other peoples from the present world difficulties. We have been free from civil and industrial discord. The outlook for peace between nations has been strengthened. In a large view we have made progress upon the enduring structure of our institutions. The arts and sciences that enrich our lives and enlarge our control of nature have made notable advances. Education has been further extended. We have made gains in the prevention of disease and in the protection of childhood.
Now, therefore, I, Herbert Hoover, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate Thursday, November 27, 1930, as a National Day of Thanksgiving, and do enjoin the people of the United States so to observe it, calling upon them to remember that many of our people are in need and suffering from causes beyond their control, and suggesting that a proper celebration of the day should include that we make sure that every person in the community, young and old, shall have cause to give thanks for our institutions and for the neighborly sentiment of our people.
In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the City of Washington this 6th day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and thirty, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and fifty-fifth.

Should non-believer's celebrate Thanksgiving? Well, I'll be celebrating it tomorrow with my son and a big fat turkey. Thanksgiving is a harvest festival not a religious holiday. I'm grateful for all I have, but I don't attribute my good fortune to a higher power. I've got what I've got because of a supportive family, my own effort and chance.

The Pilgrims invented Thanksgiving in their belief that God led them to America. Yet, I think Thanksgiving should be celebrated because of the goodness & kindness of the Indian, because it was the Indian that truely saved those lives. Therefore, yes, a secular person should be allowed to celebrate Thanksgiving as a way to acknowledge the goodness of men to each other.
Why do "Religious Rightists" want to make Thanksgiving about them? Why can't Thanksgiving be about giving thanks to men who helped each other survive the last winter & then helped each other plant their crops to grow during the summer? Why can't Thanksgiving be about the Indians teaching the pilgrims how to do these things in the new land they came to? Why can't Thanksgiving be about men helping each other with the harvest of their crops? Why do "Religious Rightists" want to claim the exclusive right to Thanksgiving, when being Thankful towards men who saved the pilgrims lives is as important?
The Arrogrance Is Just Soooooooo ... Well, it just escapes understanding.