If some religious people believe they have a monopoly on truth, then are conversation and common ground possible? If so, what would be the difficulties and benefits of such a conversation?
Posted by Hal Straus on November 10, 2006 8:34 AM
Readers’ Responses to Our Question (986)
Whitney :
It has never made sense to me why people on the internet feel a near constant desire to berate one another with such hatred and "passion".
No common ground can be reached so long as everyone involved in the conversation feels the need to defend their faith (or lack thereof) rather than accept the difference of opinion (yours truely included).
Common ground can only come about when two people of different belief systems accept the irrationality of their faith (or lack thereof) and understand that logic plays no role in faith.
Truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No One, has a monopoly on truth. As proof, try this little experiment; next time you are at a family gathering, start telling a story about something that you and other members of your family did several years ago. I guarantee you that every person involved in the memory will have a different version of the story, and be absolutely sure that their version is the gospel truth. and you know what? They are probably right.
It has never made sense to me why people on the internet feel a near constant desire to berate one another with such hatred and "passion".
No common ground can be reached so long as everyone involved in the conversation feels the need to defend their faith (or lack thereof) rather than accept the difference of opinion (yours truely included).
Common ground can only come about when two people of different belief systems accept the irrationality of their faith (or lack thereof) and understand that logic plays no role in faith.
Truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No One, has a monopoly on truth. As proof, try this little experiment; next time you are at a family gathering, start telling a story about something that you and other members of your family did several years ago. I guarantee you that every person involved in the memory will have a different version of the story, and be absolutely sure that their version is the gospel truth. and you know what? They are probably right.
The common ground is in accepting each other as individuals, because we are more than the sum of our faith. The common ground is in the things we might share like integrity, honesty, kindness to name a few.
Deciding on the things for the common good and addressing them and not our faith differences is how to begin to build bridges between cultures and faith.
The common ground is in accepting each other as individuals, because we are more than the sum of our faith. The common ground is in the things we might share like integrity, honesty, kindness to name a few.
Deciding on the things for the common good and addressing them and not our faith differences is how to begin to build bridges between cultures and faith.
There are two parts to the debate, since we need to also discuss how we get along with each other from different religious groups as well as other living entities on the planet, including the planet and ecology, because it is a living entity itself and religious philosophy dictates how we use its resources.
The first is about the religion and the tolerance to other cultures, civilizations and the people of different nations. The second is about ensuring that we preserve the earth, its fauna and flora, and its ecology on which our dependence hangs as well. The goal of life is first to survive in the long term, then to be contended and happy most of the times, and then to pamper ourselves with luxuries, sometimes and not always. The last often gets created in our minds by the pushers of the manufactures of the luxury at the expense of other living entities and resource of the planet, including the earth and ecology, which our future generations also have right to live off. For now we are living like pests and selfish fools.
The later need to be discussed first as it is of paramount importance and also dictates how we live together in peace.
SAVING EARTH, ITS FLORA AND FAUNA, ECOLOGY AND LIFE ON PLANET
I personally think that the human experiment of extreme capitalism has failed to make people of all nations and civilizations naturally healthy, blissfully content and harmoniously co-existing.
Extreme capitalism relies on the growth of profits as the only pre-dominant factor, and becomes the only variable in life to be maximized and be concerned about. So many other parameters meaningful to the life here get sacrificed and ignored in the name of chasing the assets shown by the modern financial instruments. Those who know the history of money would know that "interest" and "inflation" were the man made creations because of greed of the few who became innovative in making "something" out of "nothing". So the modern society is forced to dump a working computer and all-in-one-printer-fax-copier-scanner, because Microsoft has upgraded their Operating System with a newer version of Windows and running on old hardware would be more time consuming and expensive to support. Sticking to old hardware would be unproductive as the old version Internet Explorer does not work with the newer version of operating system and the software running on the servers on the Web. Standards and backwards compatibility are talked about, but when reality hits you, one is forced to keep up with the products pushed down to you. Instead of it being a demand based economy, the extreme capitalistic economy is supply based. Suppliers, if they had their way, they would pan pure oxygen bottles that is linked with a mask and make it a fashion statement, endorsed by Sports and Movie Stars, who do not really adopt the new products but take bribe to satisfy their greed, and mislead the naive people who worship them blindly, because the pop culture of extreme capitalism promotes this as the cool thing to do. Example, my daughter had all kinds of Barbie Dolls, and when I was growing up, I cared for any one doll (those days boy infants were allowed to play with dolls in their innocence).
Extreme Capitalism relies on exploiting natural resources and human labor. It looks like the human capital is the only thing that can be sacrificed, as life is cheap here, and it can be diluted for its quality of life. How many of you have to suffer if you can not earn because you are ill, or have to look after a very ill child or parent and make two ends meet, at expense of your health and lack of sleep? But natural resources of Earth are not finite. What was thought as the infinite is now looking limited. Thanks to mega-machines invented by the worst beast, of greed and self-centered-ness, that God made, where a man looks like a nut (he actually has become a nut with no pun intended) before a giant wheel of these machines, which knock off and scoop mountains of trees and forests, along with their inhabitants and subtle but meaningful ecology. These machines plunder the earth for crude, ores and minerals, and other resources. But they forget that they are not limited. The natives of America, Europe, Africa and Asia understood this better 2500 years back, before Rome showed the world the material awards of colonization and conversion. The suit was followed by Great Britain and other European nations in the name of progress to the lands of natives.
I have a vision when the earth is pot-hole marked along with the litters of giant digs with everything gone except for the huge waste created by the mankind, and man desperately trying to figure out how to recycle them, which nature did over millions of years. Handful of resources left are badly fought over by the powerful man between themselves, in process killing the remaining and the week (US is already doing this in Iraq for the sake of oil and Russia has already laid claim to the land below North Pole for its rich oil and mineral reserves). We are living off as if there is no tomorrow! We like to eat other animals and give cruel treatment to them to satisfy our appetite, and the same habbit will turn men into cannibals, when all other natural resources and living beings are gone! So perhaps for starters, men should not cremate or burry their dead, but use the mortal remains to satisfy their hunger! (I mean here to wakeup the man's divine conscience and NOT have it follow the suit literally).
RELIGION & PHILOSPHY THAT GOVERNS OUR LIFE
a. All religion have issues because it is in the nature of the human being to deviate from its divine nature and become demonic - unless restrained with good teachings and practices.
b. Any organized religion with power, money, and organization hierarchy, would lead to corruption and scandals of sex, money embezzlement, and even murder. Though they can not be avoided, the degrees of them should be reduced so that less of them happen.
c. Wish there is a meter that classifies various religious factions by some criteria and meters the problems faced different religious groups.
But hating ALL people of OTHER religions and calling their SAINTS/GODS bad is not a solution. This is nothing but bigotry. And hiding behind anonymous postings is not a brave act. It will show a metric which will show merits and demerits of different religious truths, and not anecdotal.
d. Colonization, Conversion and Slavery are things that are in our History. The terrorism today is the new name for the things mentioned. So is Ethnic Cleaning that was seen in Bosnia, and now being seen in Africa. The issue of backward classes should also be raised to the same levels but wondered why the rest of the world is not noticing their poor plight. This does not mean that all people from US, UK, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, China and Africa are bad. And all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others are bad. Human tendency is to generalize a community based on deeds of a few from any community. That is why understanding history and statistics are very important.
e. Organized Religion has proven to be bad, and any classification has proven to be bad. Only an individual communication with the Divine and being Spiritual and following good teachings is important. We should take a syncretic approach, and the best teachings of Christ, Gnostics, Muslims, Sufis, Jews, Buddhists, Jains, Tao-ism, Shinto-ism, Vaishnavies Bhakti, Shaivite Yoga and Tantra (which is more than what meets a western eye), and Vedanta, my favourite and most scientific, should be followed by all of us.
f. That means the education should also focus on comparative religious studies and one should follow whatever teachings that suits a person.
g. Only truth is that we are part and parcel of the same Creator, including the Flora and Fauna of this world. Please note that this means we should stop killing animals and being cruel to them.
h. It also means we stop chopping trees and killing forests and the animals that dwell there. There is no excuse and justification for us to kill the creations of the Creator in the name of survival. Man can produce enough food with today's technology and cheaper. Please stop putting cows and bulls in small and restricted pens to make their meat tender. We do not need to put chicken in the small places for the reasons and recycle their droppings in automatic conveyors, mix it with more food, and re-convey the mix back to them! Unnatural ways of living would only create endemics like Bird Flu and Aids! Cruel mind-set of man towards Animals, soon turns into cruel mind-set towards fellow man. Plese look at the most peaceful religious people and their dietry habbits, for your own conviction.
Small Beginning:
1.Lets us for a good beginning, follow the teachings of Christ: "Do not look Me in outside the world, but inside yourself."
2. And lets be flexible like this: "Worship in any form or kind of any God, is worship of Me."
3. Lets take a step, and make friends from another community and give out your love and understanding.
4. Lets stop forcing our religion onto others. This is especially true for Islam and Christianity. History of 1800 years of Christianity and 1200 years of Islam speaks for itself, and India is a best example for atrocities done in the name of Islam by Islam Invaders. According to William Durant, "Nowhere in the history, in any place or in any time, have any one suffered at the hands of any invading army, as have Hindus for so long." The violence of 9/11, Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir would pale before itself. Same thing can be talked about the forceful conversion by Christian Founders in Middle East and Europe, and Christian Colonists in North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Africa, where natives have nearly perished and if they have survived, their nations' civilization, people and economy in ruins, to be recovered if they are lucky, but that is rare, unless you happen to be China and India (but you still carry the challenges imposed from the past foreign subjugation).
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that await for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
One of the most fascinating exhibits presented by the prosecution in the Holy Land Foundation case (provided by researchers for the NEFA Foundation) is a memorandum on the Muslim Brotherhood’s multifaceted plan to convert the United States to an Islamic nation. It is the smoking gun of the Ikhwan’s long-standing efforts to destroy the Western world as we know it.
The most interesting exhibit is a Muslim Brotherhood memorandum by Mohamed Akram, dated May 22, 1991, where he outlines the Ikhwan vision of the future. He leaves no ambiguity as to the nature of the Ikhwan calling. (The exhibits will be posted and written about more completely in the NEFA website in coming days).
Under the heading “Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America,” he writes:
“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated ad God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”
But wait, there is more:
“Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack.”
Akram then spells out in some detail the role of the Brotherhood in moving the project forward: “As for the role of the Ikhwan, it is the initiative, pioneering, leadership, raising the banner and pushing people in that direction (the Jihadist process). They are then able to employ, direct, and unify Muslims’ efforts and powers for this process. In order to do that, we must possess a master of the art of ‘coalitions,’ the art of ‘absorption’ and the principles of ‘cooperation.’”
The document then gives rationale for setting up Ikhwan organizations across the country: “We must say that we are in a country which understands no language other than the language of the organizations, and one which does not respect or give weight to any group without effective, functional and strong organizations.”
The document also deals with the criticism among the Brothers that the focus on the United States will drain support for the establishment of the global caliphate. The response is two-fold:
1) “The success of the Movement in America in establishing an observant Islamic base with power and effectiveness will be the the best support and aid to the global Movement project.”
2) The global (Ikhwan) movement has not “succeeded yet in distributing roles to is branches, stating that what is needed from them as one of the participants or contributors to the project to establish the global Islamic state. The day this happens, the children of the American Ikhwani branch will have a far-reaching impact and positions that make the ancestors proud.”
The document ends with a list of Ikhwan groups trying to coordinate, including all the usual (ISNA, ICNA, IIIT etc.)
What is so interesting about the document is the breadth of ambition, the conviction of ultimate success and the care with which the campaign we see today was being thought about 16 years ago. So is the the clarity of the ultimate objective of ending our years as a functioning democracy, built on the rule of secular law, minority rights and freedom of religion, press etc.
The infiltration of the government by members and sympathizers, the coordinated role of the organizations in pursuing specific objectives, the recruitment of the best and the brightest into the movement, and other objectives are far advanced, perhaps further than the author could have imagined in so short a time.
The rationale, for those like Lieken et al who want play footsie with these groups bent on our destruction, is truly mindboggling. I don’t think the Brothers who have been on the cusp of the new PR campaign, from Ramadan to Akef, have bothered to spell this out like the Brothers do for themselves.
But here we have it, in their own words, written by their own hands. There is much more to say, and I will revisit the topic as more information comes in.
Will anyone pay attention?
posted by Douglas Farah
Someone has to quietly and calmly present the evidance you have shown, without name calling where ever Ikhwan forces choose to speak in the US.
I have to point out there that the question that these posts is supposed to answer is, "Is there any common ground?" Unfortunately, it seems that too many people here are pointing out dissimilar ground instead of common ground. We are also accusing each other.
In order to find common ground, we must look for beliefs that are the SAME. I can point out a few.
1) Rejection of idolatry and multiple gods.
2) Necessary requirement of missionary work and conversion. (Isn't Christian missionary work like a jihad against error?)
3) Care for the poor
4) Belief in prophets
5) Respect for Abraham the ancient patriarch
Please study each other's beliefs with respect and interest with the intent to understand rather than condemn.
For those who post merely to cast Islam as evil, irrational and false, please let me point out that at various times in history, Islam was a progressive force that assisted the rise of culture in the West. One of Judaism's greatest sages is Maimonides. In Maimonides famous work, "Guide for the Perplexed," the harmony of past ages was noted in the forward of this book. (The paperback edition with bright red cover - do not have it in front of me now to provide better detail, but you can find it on Amazon and THIS is the kind of reading we all need to do for consciousness raising to occur) Anyway, in the forward, a letter that Maimonides wrote is spoken of and he refers to Muslim philosopher Ibn Rush'd (Averroes) who advocated rationalism, as "My Master Abd Allah Ibn Rush'd." Maimonides works were written after the death of Ibn Rush'd, so he used 'My Master' not in the context of a living mentor, but as an expression of respect for a philosophical body of writing that inspired his own. I believe that Thomas Aquinas was then similarly inspired by Maimonides. If you value the contributions of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and the Neoplatonists like Plotinus, Porphory and Iamblichus, it is good to realize that this body of work had become lost to Western culture and it was revived by Jewish and Arab scribes who translated the texts into Arabic and Hebrew, which were then translated to Latin and Greek leading to the 'Renaissance.'
OK - I hear you! You are asking, "What have Muslims done for us lately?" In truth, not much!
Islam is now in a period of intellectual stagnancy as Europe was during 'The Dark Ages."
But the haters of Islam need to face some facts. As obviously Islam will not be wiped from the face of the earth, as you wish, what would you next hope to see happen to current day Islamic culture? Hopefully you would answer that you would like to see a great consciousness raising in the Muslim world. The FACT that verses exist in the Qur'an which advocate a society establish around given human rights mandates, that have NOT been abrogated as often thought, gives Muslim a legitimate base for this REFOCUSING on the humanitarian model of Islam.
As a hater of Islam, if you cannot wipe Islam from the face of the earth - is not what the Muslim moderates are attempting to accomplish the next best thing for ALL OF HUMANITY?
Truly, the emotional hate posts here only express psychological immaturity. If you oppose violence, then help us find a viable solution based upon ISLAM'S OWN DICTATES rather then asking Muslims to forfeit their culture and become Western clones.
You can choose to help society reach a more humanitarian age or just boo and hiss from the sidelines. Can we not engage together in a vision that will uplift all concerned? Any reality is preceded by a vision. We may not be where you wish us to be but we are trying with everything we have to bring about a refocusing on the innate humanitarian aspects of Islam.
Humanitarian Qur'anic verses (ayah)?
Please see, once again, the excerpt from
Dr. Mansoor Alam's article below:
So what should be done now? Should we simply close our eyes to the Qur’an and allow these latter-day rulers and Imams to regurgitate the same old sectarian-based Shariah that was developed under dictatorial rule and which tramples on the most basic values of the Qur’an dealing with universal human rights, that among these are: sacrosanct right of the sanctity of human life (5:32); inalienable right of the freedom of choice (2:256, 18:29); right of tolerance for other faiths (22:40) and absolutely no compulsion in faith (2:256); right to conduct state affairs by mutual consultation (3:159, 42:38); universal right of human dignity (17:70); sacrosanct right of equal justice for all (4:58, 4:135, 5:42, 16:90) including enemies (5:8) and no bending of justice for anyone (if the Prophet was not above the law (6:15) then how can anyone else be?); right to hold positions based solely on merit (46:19); right of personal responsibility and accountability (53:38); right of ownership of the fruits of one’s labor and no free ride for anyone (53:39). Are these Qur’an-guaranteed human rights (to all men and women) to be found in our current practice of Islam anywhere not to say of the holiest place in Islam, the birth place of our Prophet (PBUH)?
Who else could be more responsible then for damaging the sacred heart of Islam in the name of Islam, in the name of the Qur’an, in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) than the twin forces of Muslim dictatorship and Muslim priesthood?
The situation has degenerated to such an extent that if one were to mention that above human rights are some of the most sacred in Islam; that our Prophet (PBUH) lived and implemented these rights in society; that an Islamic society is supposed to be constituted on the basis of these core rights at its heart; then surely it will raise many eyebrows and may even invite sarcasm from certain quarters with comments such as: “Have these human rights anything to do with Muslims and Islam?” These reactions are not out of place considering how Muslim countries have been mistreating and even killing their own people in the name of Islam.
The world is judging Islam by our practice of Islam, by observing the so-called practicing Muslims. No wonder we seem to be fulfilling the prophecy of the Qur’an by showing to the world by our own actions that Islam is a failure, that Islam is false (107:1-7)! Our failure to live up to true Islam is being seen as failure of Islam. We may think we are good practicing Muslims and that we will ultimately have the mercy and the blessings of Allah. All this is fine but what about the Qur’an and its emphasis on universal human rights? Is the Qur’an only for reciting to achieve mercy and forgiveness, mostly for the dead? Or, should its human rights also need to be implemented in human society?
As a matter fact these values are under siege in every Muslim country. Can we expect to get anywhere when Muslim societies trample on these rights while putting extraordinary emphasis on rituals? What would be more important to Islam in the eyes of Allah: performing its rituals or implementing its basic human rights?
The Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that Muslim Ummah is like a body. When any part of the body is in pain the whole body feels it. That body seems to be in critical condition today. The only way to revive it is to go back to the basic Qur’anic values guaranteeing universal human rights and make them the foundation of Muslim society the way our Prophet (PBUH) did more than 1400 years ago when the rest of the world was living in barbarism and chaos as noted by many historians (e.g., J.H. Denison, Emotion as the Basis of Civilization). This is the real miracle of the Qur’an. This is the true Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) to practice (7:157).
There is common ground. It exists in recognizing human rights.
Your assessment of Islam seems unfairly harsh. Many goodhearted and dedicated Muslims are trying to re-emphasis the compassionate Meccan injunctions of the Qur'an. They have not been abrogated by the Medina verses as often thought. In fact, placed in historical context, the Medina verses are from times of war, conflict and betrayal of earlier peace agreements. It is very misleading to take them out of their historical context.
The following is an excerpt of an article by
Dr. Mansoor Alam of Toledo Ohio. He is a university professor at Toledo University and fully dedicates himself to clarifying the importance of Human Rights within Islam. Islam as it was meant to be, not Islam as it currently is practiced. I ask in all fairness that everyone here read this excerpt from one of his articles to fully understand the great positive possibilities of the Qur'an. This man has a vision - a vision that we would all do well to attend to. Do not all of us wish to see Muslims in the West and throughout the world as great contributors to humanity rather than a people against humanity. The Vision of Dr. Mansoor Alam which is completely valid Qur'anically can accomplish this. Please note his Qur'anic references should you have any doubt. You can see for yourself that there in fact IS a
HUMANITARIAN ISLAM.
(excerpt from article by Mansoor Alam Ph.D.)
So what should be done now? Should we simply close our eyes to the Qur’an and allow these latter-day rulers and Imams to regurgitate the same old sectarian-based Shariah that was developed under dictatorial rule and which tramples on the most basic values of the Qur’an dealing with universal human rights, that among these are: sacrosanct right of the sanctity of human life (5:32); inalienable right of the freedom of choice (2:256, 18:29); right of tolerance for other faiths (22:40) and absolutely no compulsion in faith (2:256); right to conduct state affairs by mutual consultation (3:159, 42:38); universal right of human dignity (17:70); sacrosanct right of equal justice for all (4:58, 4:135, 5:42, 16:90) including enemies (5:8) and no bending of justice for anyone (if the Prophet was not above the law (6:15) then how can anyone else be?); right to hold positions based solely on merit (46:19); right of personal responsibility and accountability (53:38); right of ownership of the fruits of one’s labor and no free ride for anyone (53:39). Are these Qur’an-guaranteed human rights (to all men and women) to be found in our current practice of Islam anywhere not to say of the holiest place in Islam, the birth place of our Prophet (PBUH)?
Who else could be more responsible then for damaging the sacred heart of Islam in the name of Islam, in the name of the Qur’an, in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) than the twin forces of Muslim dictatorship and Muslim priesthood?
The situation has degenerated to such an extent that if one were to mention that above human rights are some of the most sacred in Islam; that our Prophet (PBUH) lived and implemented these rights in society; that an Islamic society is supposed to be constituted on the basis of these core rights at its heart; then surely it will raise many eyebrows and may even invite sarcasm from certain quarters with comments such as: “Have these human rights anything to do with Muslims and Islam?” These reactions are not out of place considering how Muslim countries have been mistreating and even killing their own people in the name of Islam.
The world is judging Islam by our practice of Islam, by observing the so-called practicing Muslims. No wonder we seem to be fulfilling the prophecy of the Qur’an by showing to the world by our own actions that Islam is a failure, that Islam is false (107:1-7)! Our failure to live up to true Islam is being seen as failure of Islam. We may think we are good practicing Muslims and that we will ultimately have the mercy and the blessings of Allah. All this is fine but what about the Qur’an and its emphasis on universal human rights? Is the Qur’an only for reciting to achieve mercy and forgiveness, mostly for the dead? Or, should its human rights also need to be implemented in human society?
As a matter fact these values are under siege in every Muslim country. Can we expect to get anywhere when Muslim societies trample on these rights while putting extraordinary emphasis on rituals? What would be more important to Islam in the eyes of Allah: performing its rituals or implementing its basic human rights?
The Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that Muslim Ummah is like a body. When any part of the body is in pain the whole body feels it. That body seems to be in critical condition today. The only way to revive it is to go back to the basic Qur’anic values guaranteeing universal human rights and make them the foundation of Muslim society the way our Prophet (PBUH) did more than 1400 years ago when the rest of the world was living in barbarism and chaos as noted by many historians (e.g., J.H. Denison, Emotion as the Basis of Civilization). This is the real miracle of the Qur’an. This is the true Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) to practice (7:157).
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
The Bavli [Babylonian Talmud] has formed the definitive statement of Judaism from the time of its closure to the present day. The excellence of its composition, the mastery and authority of those who everywhere studied it and advocated its law, the sharpness of its exegesis and discussion, the harmonious and proportional presentation of all details, these virtues of taste and intellect may well have secured for the document is paramount position … The Bavli served from its closure as an encyclopedia of knowledge and as a summa of the theology and law of Judaism.
— Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner
B
ible scholars are aware that Jesus Christ denounced the Pharisees. He said they nullified all the Commandments of God by their Tradition, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:13; Matt. 15:6-9, etc.). His invective, in truth, cannot be equalled. All of Matthew 23 is like a whiplash. He likened Pharisaism to a whited sepulchre, indeed beautiful outwardly, but "inside full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness." Christ climaxed one condemnation after another with the expletive, "Hypocrites!" He called the Pharisees children of them that killed the Prophets. He foretold they would go on killing, crucifying and persecuting until the guilt for all the righteous blood shed from Abel on down would be upon them. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Christ asked.
Christ is as utterly devastating of Pharisaism in the record of John 8. Although He admitted that His hearers were descendants of Abraham, He said they were, spiritually, of the devil. Christ told them:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because the truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44).
The Missing Link
"If some religious people believe they have a monopoly on truth, then are conversation and common ground possible?"
Sure. The conversation would go something like this:
"Our invisible supernatural being is better than yours, and all the dogma we have is better than the dogma that your religion has, and we'll continue to berate and kill each other to prove it."
Can we find Common Ground? Yes, we can. We can accept each human being as a brother or sister of the human family and a creation of God. To love them dispite the outcome might be our common cause. If one feels he or she has greater truth, we should hear them and consider, not ridicule.
Truth, like spilled diamonds, might be valued all the more if gathered into one jar through the return of the scattered gems. Some may have more, some less but we all hold truth, even if there is some dirt mingled in the mix that should be cleaned out. I may have some of both in my hands.
How about Ibn Baaz, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia from 1993 until his death in 1999, issuing a fatwa (pronouncement regarding sharia law) declaring: "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment."
People of faith are not immune from doing stupid things.
"The Lord didn't say nuclear. But I do believe it will be something like that."
Then he goes on:
"I have a relatively good track record," he said. "Sometimes I miss."
Whose track record is this, his or God's? How can God miss predictions and He is the One who charted everyone's and everything's destiny? Don't you have ears to hear with? Don't you have eyes to see with? Don't you have brains to think with? Surely, it is not the eyes that go blind, it is the hearts!
That is exactly what I am talking about! If this nonsense happens today in the age of information, imagine what went on after Jesus departed this earth! This is the "new born" christians in action. The holy ghost talks to them freely! This is the same holy ghost that led to the dream of Simon who claimed that he saw a vision in which God told him to preach to the gentiles. This is the same Simon whose own experience led to the writing of the book of acts, which was later taken as part of the word of God!!!!!
How dare anyone sees this sign of God of a born again Simon in the body of Robertson, and yet claims that the bible is ok and the history of christianity has lineage with Jesus!??! The ink indeed has dried and the pens are lifted!
"
116. And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wo uldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
119. God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment o f all desires).
120. To God doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
"
Here you have it! An honoured prophet of God keeping his message straight while walking the earth. After he leaves earth, he and his mother were treated like Gods, which is considered blasphemous even with Jesus' standards. There he is questioned by God and at the end still asking God for forgiveness for his people. Whose job is it to bring this truth forward? Who should come forward and defend that holy prophet of God?
"Islam talks very highly of him and his mother. Why should any muslim find it awkward to defend that prophet of God in the context of Islamic views?"
I am not a Christian, and do not profess to have any claims on the "absolute truth". However from my reading of Christ's life, I think he does not need the blessings of Quran to stand tall. He was tall already even before Quran mentioned him.
Defending one's religious views is like defending the color of one's chosen attire. What's good for you is yours, what's good for me I'll defend. In the end, there is a high probability that the two shall agree to disagree.
Apparently there would be no conflict, so long as one does not try to impose its will on the other. Unfortunately, Islam disagrees with this notion as it claims to be the sole custodian of the absolute truth, and as a result Islam has bloody borders.
Conviction and honesty really go hand in hand. Conviction also means the ability to prove your point, without lies or arrogance. One of the things that I like about Jesus is that he taught nothing in secret. He stood with courage in front of his enemies and pointed out the liers and hypocrytes among them. Islam talks very highly of him and his mother. Why should any muslim find it awkward to defend that prophet of God in the context of Islamic views? Muslims really have nothing to hide. Muslims have very special love for prophet Mohamed (PBUH) for all he has done through 23 years prophethood. At a time when muslims starve for knowledge about all prophets of God, our christian brothers continue to live in a dream world that led them astray for 100s of years.
The only thing I do different here is that I make sure I don't bring in lies or to dream up something that looks good in a post.
I am amazed. For all who respond with a ferocious hatred toward those with a "monopoly on truth", you are responding with an awful lot of conviction that your responses contain some absolute truth that everyone needs to hear! Seems by your responses that you allow yourself a monopoly on truth, and are comfortable making sure everyone knows it. I think some honesty is required as we all need to look at our responses carefully for what they are...our personal attempts to make truth claims. Since we all do this, can we really be so angry with others who are no less convinced of their beliefs than we are?
Regarding the respect of humans and their personal freedom and responsibilities, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) said:
"Consult your heart even when people insist on giving you a multitude of opinions"
He also said:
"If a believer is to chose between competing opinions in a matter, let him/her choses the easiest to apply, as long as it doesn't contradicts with God's laws".
That's what prophets are for. May the peace and the blessings of the almighty God be on all His prophets, Ibraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed. May God reward ALL the prophets for the work and sacrifice they done for all humanity. May God guides those who strayed from the straight path. Amen!
"That's because Islam have no religious hierarchy like churches and no priesthood either. Commands come from God, not humans."
There is. Either you don't know or are combing for claps. Islam governs every aspect of a Muslim's life - how s/he is to use the hands and for what purpose, how to mate, whom to marry, what to eat, how much long the beard has to be, how to dress and whom to kill. This, to me, pretty much sets the box. Because you are inside Islam and have faith (or blinders), you are just clueless.
well for a newbie you handle yourself with aplomb-
it can get a little brutal sometimes- scroll back and see what preceded your timely entrance here-
a salaamu alaikum
I know what you mean but I am not sure either which chapter these ayas are in. I can do a quick serach and see what I can come up with.
Believe it or not, but I am really new to this board discussions stuff. I am amazed at the amount of misinformation being shared here. I think I will train myself a bit on one or two boards and then see if I will have the stomach to read some of the stuff on the athiest board discussions. Peace.
simplewords-do you happen to know the ayat about not blindly following the ways of your father or something like that?
ive tried to find it but havnet been able to
also i wish youd check out the athiest question there are some really reasonable people there and im not always up to it philisophically but youre very well spoken and i think you be appreciated peace
"Well, why do Muslims prefer to stay inside the box that the mullahs and mosque has put them in?"
Hmmm! Never thought about that! Oh yes, I know why. That's because Islam have no religious hierarchy like churches and no priesthood either. Commands come from God, not humans. There is no box to begin with. How many other religions give you the freedom to read others scriptures? No box here either. Humans these days go a certain church denomination and ask for custom built box, with personally-tuned teachings, and a chance to pick the "word of God" that suits their life style!
How can anyone be so heart-blind to not see what's going on here???
"I don't need to judge you or you judge me anymore."
Thanks. Your response was anticipated. However we (self-conefessed kafirs) shall continue to oppose and pose challenge to the existing Islamic theory of paradise, earth and life, simply because in the West these theories/hypothesis have no place.
And you wrote to someone:
"So you prefer to stay inside the box that the church put you in."
Well, why do Muslims prefer to stay inside the box that the mullahs and mosque has put them in ?
"Islam has nothing to offer me. Muhammad came along 600 years after Jesus and contradicts the Word of God. He showed himself to be a false prophet."
So you prefer to stay inside the box that the church put you in. I think you are a good candidate for evanglism. Triple brainwashed and able to repeat the same sentence over and over again in your posts makes you an excellent candidate for such a position! By the way, which church denomination do you belong to so I understand which "version of the word of God" you believe in? Just curious!
"I'll choose to remain a condemned kafir for that would allow me to constantly question the validity of the message of the Quran and other religions and traditions."
That's one "hell" of a choice! Have it your way! I don't need to judge you or you judge me anymore. I carried the message to you (nothing else I could do) and you made a choice. This is the end of our discussions. Thanks!
Readers’ Responses to Our Question (986)
It has never made sense to me why people on the internet feel a near constant desire to berate one another with such hatred and "passion".
No common ground can be reached so long as everyone involved in the conversation feels the need to defend their faith (or lack thereof) rather than accept the difference of opinion (yours truely included).
Common ground can only come about when two people of different belief systems accept the irrationality of their faith (or lack thereof) and understand that logic plays no role in faith.
Truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No One, has a monopoly on truth. As proof, try this little experiment; next time you are at a family gathering, start telling a story about something that you and other members of your family did several years ago. I guarantee you that every person involved in the memory will have a different version of the story, and be absolutely sure that their version is the gospel truth. and you know what? They are probably right.
February 14, 2008 3:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
It has never made sense to me why people on the internet feel a near constant desire to berate one another with such hatred and "passion".
No common ground can be reached so long as everyone involved in the conversation feels the need to defend their faith (or lack thereof) rather than accept the difference of opinion (yours truely included).
Common ground can only come about when two people of different belief systems accept the irrationality of their faith (or lack thereof) and understand that logic plays no role in faith.
Truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No One, has a monopoly on truth. As proof, try this little experiment; next time you are at a family gathering, start telling a story about something that you and other members of your family did several years ago. I guarantee you that every person involved in the memory will have a different version of the story, and be absolutely sure that their version is the gospel truth. and you know what? They are probably right.
February 14, 2008 3:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords,
Victoria,
All other Muslims, brothers and sisters!
Eid Mubarik & Happy New Year to all of you.
Simplewords its nice to read your posts.
Sorry for the delayed greetings.
I was away and very happily busy getting engaged!
Your bit emotional & aggressive,
Brother!
January 5, 2008 7:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Maybe science can become the common ground...
www.foreverfamilyfoundation.org/sanfranciscocc.htm
January 4, 2008 5:03 AM | Report Offensive Comments
sbozti jlvoeyhs qohyicj cjiwkb opwnqj psre xhqi
September 19, 2007 7:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The common ground is in accepting each other as individuals, because we are more than the sum of our faith. The common ground is in the things we might share like integrity, honesty, kindness to name a few.
Deciding on the things for the common good and addressing them and not our faith differences is how to begin to build bridges between cultures and faith.
September 3, 2007 11:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The common ground is in accepting each other as individuals, because we are more than the sum of our faith. The common ground is in the things we might share like integrity, honesty, kindness to name a few.
Deciding on the things for the common good and addressing them and not our faith differences is how to begin to build bridges between cultures and faith.
September 3, 2007 11:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
DEBATE
There are two parts to the debate, since we need to also discuss how we get along with each other from different religious groups as well as other living entities on the planet, including the planet and ecology, because it is a living entity itself and religious philosophy dictates how we use its resources.
The first is about the religion and the tolerance to other cultures, civilizations and the people of different nations. The second is about ensuring that we preserve the earth, its fauna and flora, and its ecology on which our dependence hangs as well. The goal of life is first to survive in the long term, then to be contended and happy most of the times, and then to pamper ourselves with luxuries, sometimes and not always. The last often gets created in our minds by the pushers of the manufactures of the luxury at the expense of other living entities and resource of the planet, including the earth and ecology, which our future generations also have right to live off. For now we are living like pests and selfish fools.
The later need to be discussed first as it is of paramount importance and also dictates how we live together in peace.
SAVING EARTH, ITS FLORA AND FAUNA, ECOLOGY AND LIFE ON PLANET
I personally think that the human experiment of extreme capitalism has failed to make people of all nations and civilizations naturally healthy, blissfully content and harmoniously co-existing.
Extreme capitalism relies on the growth of profits as the only pre-dominant factor, and becomes the only variable in life to be maximized and be concerned about. So many other parameters meaningful to the life here get sacrificed and ignored in the name of chasing the assets shown by the modern financial instruments. Those who know the history of money would know that "interest" and "inflation" were the man made creations because of greed of the few who became innovative in making "something" out of "nothing". So the modern society is forced to dump a working computer and all-in-one-printer-fax-copier-scanner, because Microsoft has upgraded their Operating System with a newer version of Windows and running on old hardware would be more time consuming and expensive to support. Sticking to old hardware would be unproductive as the old version Internet Explorer does not work with the newer version of operating system and the software running on the servers on the Web. Standards and backwards compatibility are talked about, but when reality hits you, one is forced to keep up with the products pushed down to you. Instead of it being a demand based economy, the extreme capitalistic economy is supply based. Suppliers, if they had their way, they would pan pure oxygen bottles that is linked with a mask and make it a fashion statement, endorsed by Sports and Movie Stars, who do not really adopt the new products but take bribe to satisfy their greed, and mislead the naive people who worship them blindly, because the pop culture of extreme capitalism promotes this as the cool thing to do. Example, my daughter had all kinds of Barbie Dolls, and when I was growing up, I cared for any one doll (those days boy infants were allowed to play with dolls in their innocence).
Extreme Capitalism relies on exploiting natural resources and human labor. It looks like the human capital is the only thing that can be sacrificed, as life is cheap here, and it can be diluted for its quality of life. How many of you have to suffer if you can not earn because you are ill, or have to look after a very ill child or parent and make two ends meet, at expense of your health and lack of sleep? But natural resources of Earth are not finite. What was thought as the infinite is now looking limited. Thanks to mega-machines invented by the worst beast, of greed and self-centered-ness, that God made, where a man looks like a nut (he actually has become a nut with no pun intended) before a giant wheel of these machines, which knock off and scoop mountains of trees and forests, along with their inhabitants and subtle but meaningful ecology. These machines plunder the earth for crude, ores and minerals, and other resources. But they forget that they are not limited. The natives of America, Europe, Africa and Asia understood this better 2500 years back, before Rome showed the world the material awards of colonization and conversion. The suit was followed by Great Britain and other European nations in the name of progress to the lands of natives.
I have a vision when the earth is pot-hole marked along with the litters of giant digs with everything gone except for the huge waste created by the mankind, and man desperately trying to figure out how to recycle them, which nature did over millions of years. Handful of resources left are badly fought over by the powerful man between themselves, in process killing the remaining and the week (US is already doing this in Iraq for the sake of oil and Russia has already laid claim to the land below North Pole for its rich oil and mineral reserves). We are living off as if there is no tomorrow! We like to eat other animals and give cruel treatment to them to satisfy our appetite, and the same habbit will turn men into cannibals, when all other natural resources and living beings are gone! So perhaps for starters, men should not cremate or burry their dead, but use the mortal remains to satisfy their hunger! (I mean here to wakeup the man's divine conscience and NOT have it follow the suit literally).
RELIGION & PHILOSPHY THAT GOVERNS OUR LIFE
a. All religion have issues because it is in the nature of the human being to deviate from its divine nature and become demonic - unless restrained with good teachings and practices.
b. Any organized religion with power, money, and organization hierarchy, would lead to corruption and scandals of sex, money embezzlement, and even murder. Though they can not be avoided, the degrees of them should be reduced so that less of them happen.
c. Wish there is a meter that classifies various religious factions by some criteria and meters the problems faced different religious groups.
But hating ALL people of OTHER religions and calling their SAINTS/GODS bad is not a solution. This is nothing but bigotry. And hiding behind anonymous postings is not a brave act. It will show a metric which will show merits and demerits of different religious truths, and not anecdotal.
d. Colonization, Conversion and Slavery are things that are in our History. The terrorism today is the new name for the things mentioned. So is Ethnic Cleaning that was seen in Bosnia, and now being seen in Africa. The issue of backward classes should also be raised to the same levels but wondered why the rest of the world is not noticing their poor plight. This does not mean that all people from US, UK, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, China and Africa are bad. And all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others are bad. Human tendency is to generalize a community based on deeds of a few from any community. That is why understanding history and statistics are very important.
e. Organized Religion has proven to be bad, and any classification has proven to be bad. Only an individual communication with the Divine and being Spiritual and following good teachings is important. We should take a syncretic approach, and the best teachings of Christ, Gnostics, Muslims, Sufis, Jews, Buddhists, Jains, Tao-ism, Shinto-ism, Vaishnavies Bhakti, Shaivite Yoga and Tantra (which is more than what meets a western eye), and Vedanta, my favourite and most scientific, should be followed by all of us.
f. That means the education should also focus on comparative religious studies and one should follow whatever teachings that suits a person.
g. Only truth is that we are part and parcel of the same Creator, including the Flora and Fauna of this world. Please note that this means we should stop killing animals and being cruel to them.
h. It also means we stop chopping trees and killing forests and the animals that dwell there. There is no excuse and justification for us to kill the creations of the Creator in the name of survival. Man can produce enough food with today's technology and cheaper. Please stop putting cows and bulls in small and restricted pens to make their meat tender. We do not need to put chicken in the small places for the reasons and recycle their droppings in automatic conveyors, mix it with more food, and re-convey the mix back to them! Unnatural ways of living would only create endemics like Bird Flu and Aids! Cruel mind-set of man towards Animals, soon turns into cruel mind-set towards fellow man. Plese look at the most peaceful religious people and their dietry habbits, for your own conviction.
Small Beginning:
1.Lets us for a good beginning, follow the teachings of Christ: "Do not look Me in outside the world, but inside yourself."
2. And lets be flexible like this: "Worship in any form or kind of any God, is worship of Me."
3. Lets take a step, and make friends from another community and give out your love and understanding.
4. Lets stop forcing our religion onto others. This is especially true for Islam and Christianity. History of 1800 years of Christianity and 1200 years of Islam speaks for itself, and India is a best example for atrocities done in the name of Islam by Islam Invaders. According to William Durant, "Nowhere in the history, in any place or in any time, have any one suffered at the hands of any invading army, as have Hindus for so long." The violence of 9/11, Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir would pale before itself. Same thing can be talked about the forceful conversion by Christian Founders in Middle East and Europe, and Christian Colonists in North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Africa, where natives have nearly perished and if they have survived, their nations' civilization, people and economy in ruins, to be recovered if they are lucky, but that is rare, unless you happen to be China and India (but you still carry the challenges imposed from the past foreign subjugation).
AMEN, AMIN, AUM.
August 10, 2007 10:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
August 7, 2007 12:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
August 6, 2007 11:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that await for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
August 6, 2007 11:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
August 6, 2007 11:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
This must be the most significant question to ask whether or not there could be common ground? We must remember the typical natural behaviors of humans before Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. We also must remember the individual and societal transformation that occurred when every one of the great religions were established.
Before any known religion was established on Earth, based upon paleontology fossil evidence and other discoveries suggests that early humans acted mainly upon instinct and emotional impulses. Some of the most questionable behaviors of people in our times resemble the same behaviors of our distant ancestors when religion wasn't present including, vengeance, anger, fear, and desire. Early humans actively engaged into four principal activities in life; fighting, feeding, fleeing and mating.
Once the great religions and other philosophical viewpoints of the sacred emerged, the most paradoxical event in Earth's natural history has commenced. For the first time ever, a living species has transformed their basic behavioral patterns and introduced a new way of life, which includes but is not limited to restraint, extended love beyond the immediate family, charity, loyalty, devotion, pluralism, atonement, etc.
What's even more fascinating is that despite at least 2,000,000 living species on Earth today and at least 100,000,000,000 different life forms that emerged and gone extinct throughout Earth's history since the Precambrian Times that ranged between 4.5 billion to 600 million years ago; we're the only living inhabitants of Earth who've transformed our principal behavior, which ultimately introduced symbols, writing, mathematics, art, and a formal legal system.
What we must understand is that science showed how unique we really are. We're an unprecedented living exception of Earth's long history.
Although we've as a species has accomplished the impossible, we've also developed various traits of behavior over the course of a very long time and they're still with us today. Unfortunately, we don't have to search long to detect such emotional, reactionary, vengeful, and instinctive behaviors showed often in the media.
Our best solution in finding common ground is that almost every human being agrees to call this planet Earth. I'm confident, that we all agree that all 6,000,000,000+ people on Earth are members of the same species. If anyone disagrees, then we have a serious social problem. Once we've reach that goal then we must understand the ruthless aspect of our nature is as real as our enormous potential, diverse virtues and extensive accomplishments that continue on to triumph throughout this day and hopefully far and far beyond.
For every mistake or misjudgment we make we'll sometimes say that we're just human. It is a principal explanation but we shouldn't use it as a common excuse. We should also discover that diversity is the next great gift we'll receive as we learn from other cultures and viewpoints; we'll have an opportunity to expand our minds by learning the full extent of the human variation.
Although we often perceive ourselves in troubling times, maybe we should think about the immanent opportunities that wait for anyone brave enough to search beyond their limited perceptions.
August 6, 2007 11:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Aug 1, 08:53
Finally, The Smoking Gun
One of the most fascinating exhibits presented by the prosecution in the Holy Land Foundation case (provided by researchers for the NEFA Foundation) is a memorandum on the Muslim Brotherhood’s multifaceted plan to convert the United States to an Islamic nation. It is the smoking gun of the Ikhwan’s long-standing efforts to destroy the Western world as we know it.
The most interesting exhibit is a Muslim Brotherhood memorandum by Mohamed Akram, dated May 22, 1991, where he outlines the Ikhwan vision of the future. He leaves no ambiguity as to the nature of the Ikhwan calling. (The exhibits will be posted and written about more completely in the NEFA website in coming days).
Under the heading “Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America,” he writes:
“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated ad God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”
But wait, there is more:
“Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack.”
Akram then spells out in some detail the role of the Brotherhood in moving the project forward: “As for the role of the Ikhwan, it is the initiative, pioneering, leadership, raising the banner and pushing people in that direction (the Jihadist process). They are then able to employ, direct, and unify Muslims’ efforts and powers for this process. In order to do that, we must possess a master of the art of ‘coalitions,’ the art of ‘absorption’ and the principles of ‘cooperation.’”
The document then gives rationale for setting up Ikhwan organizations across the country: “We must say that we are in a country which understands no language other than the language of the organizations, and one which does not respect or give weight to any group without effective, functional and strong organizations.”
The document also deals with the criticism among the Brothers that the focus on the United States will drain support for the establishment of the global caliphate. The response is two-fold:
1) “The success of the Movement in America in establishing an observant Islamic base with power and effectiveness will be the the best support and aid to the global Movement project.”
2) The global (Ikhwan) movement has not “succeeded yet in distributing roles to is branches, stating that what is needed from them as one of the participants or contributors to the project to establish the global Islamic state. The day this happens, the children of the American Ikhwani branch will have a far-reaching impact and positions that make the ancestors proud.”
The document ends with a list of Ikhwan groups trying to coordinate, including all the usual (ISNA, ICNA, IIIT etc.)
What is so interesting about the document is the breadth of ambition, the conviction of ultimate success and the care with which the campaign we see today was being thought about 16 years ago. So is the the clarity of the ultimate objective of ending our years as a functioning democracy, built on the rule of secular law, minority rights and freedom of religion, press etc.
The infiltration of the government by members and sympathizers, the coordinated role of the organizations in pursuing specific objectives, the recruitment of the best and the brightest into the movement, and other objectives are far advanced, perhaps further than the author could have imagined in so short a time.
The rationale, for those like Lieken et al who want play footsie with these groups bent on our destruction, is truly mindboggling. I don’t think the Brothers who have been on the cusp of the new PR campaign, from Ramadan to Akef, have bothered to spell this out like the Brothers do for themselves.
But here we have it, in their own words, written by their own hands. There is much more to say, and I will revisit the topic as more information comes in.
Will anyone pay attention?
posted by Douglas Farah
Someone has to quietly and calmly present the evidance you have shown, without name calling where ever Ikhwan forces choose to speak in the US.
Ikhwan spokesman then have 3 choices:
-deny and call you names
-change the subject abruptly
-question your integrity
But either way this information is
August 1, 2007 5:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I have to point out there that the question that these posts is supposed to answer is, "Is there any common ground?" Unfortunately, it seems that too many people here are pointing out dissimilar ground instead of common ground. We are also accusing each other.
In order to find common ground, we must look for beliefs that are the SAME. I can point out a few.
1) Rejection of idolatry and multiple gods.
2) Necessary requirement of missionary work and conversion. (Isn't Christian missionary work like a jihad against error?)
3) Care for the poor
4) Belief in prophets
5) Respect for Abraham the ancient patriarch
Please study each other's beliefs with respect and interest with the intent to understand rather than condemn.
July 30, 2007 4:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
For those who post merely to cast Islam as evil, irrational and false, please let me point out that at various times in history, Islam was a progressive force that assisted the rise of culture in the West. One of Judaism's greatest sages is Maimonides. In Maimonides famous work, "Guide for the Perplexed," the harmony of past ages was noted in the forward of this book. (The paperback edition with bright red cover - do not have it in front of me now to provide better detail, but you can find it on Amazon and THIS is the kind of reading we all need to do for consciousness raising to occur) Anyway, in the forward, a letter that Maimonides wrote is spoken of and he refers to Muslim philosopher Ibn Rush'd (Averroes) who advocated rationalism, as "My Master Abd Allah Ibn Rush'd." Maimonides works were written after the death of Ibn Rush'd, so he used 'My Master' not in the context of a living mentor, but as an expression of respect for a philosophical body of writing that inspired his own. I believe that Thomas Aquinas was then similarly inspired by Maimonides. If you value the contributions of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and the Neoplatonists like Plotinus, Porphory and Iamblichus, it is good to realize that this body of work had become lost to Western culture and it was revived by Jewish and Arab scribes who translated the texts into Arabic and Hebrew, which were then translated to Latin and Greek leading to the 'Renaissance.'
OK - I hear you! You are asking, "What have Muslims done for us lately?" In truth, not much!
Islam is now in a period of intellectual stagnancy as Europe was during 'The Dark Ages."
But the haters of Islam need to face some facts. As obviously Islam will not be wiped from the face of the earth, as you wish, what would you next hope to see happen to current day Islamic culture? Hopefully you would answer that you would like to see a great consciousness raising in the Muslim world. The FACT that verses exist in the Qur'an which advocate a society establish around given human rights mandates, that have NOT been abrogated as often thought, gives Muslim a legitimate base for this REFOCUSING on the humanitarian model of Islam.
As a hater of Islam, if you cannot wipe Islam from the face of the earth - is not what the Muslim moderates are attempting to accomplish the next best thing for ALL OF HUMANITY?
Truly, the emotional hate posts here only express psychological immaturity. If you oppose violence, then help us find a viable solution based upon ISLAM'S OWN DICTATES rather then asking Muslims to forfeit their culture and become Western clones.
You can choose to help society reach a more humanitarian age or just boo and hiss from the sidelines. Can we not engage together in a vision that will uplift all concerned? Any reality is preceded by a vision. We may not be where you wish us to be but we are trying with everything we have to bring about a refocusing on the innate humanitarian aspects of Islam.
Humanitarian Qur'anic verses (ayah)?
Please see, once again, the excerpt from
Dr. Mansoor Alam's article below:
So what should be done now? Should we simply close our eyes to the Qur’an and allow these latter-day rulers and Imams to regurgitate the same old sectarian-based Shariah that was developed under dictatorial rule and which tramples on the most basic values of the Qur’an dealing with universal human rights, that among these are: sacrosanct right of the sanctity of human life (5:32); inalienable right of the freedom of choice (2:256, 18:29); right of tolerance for other faiths (22:40) and absolutely no compulsion in faith (2:256); right to conduct state affairs by mutual consultation (3:159, 42:38); universal right of human dignity (17:70); sacrosanct right of equal justice for all (4:58, 4:135, 5:42, 16:90) including enemies (5:8) and no bending of justice for anyone (if the Prophet was not above the law (6:15) then how can anyone else be?); right to hold positions based solely on merit (46:19); right of personal responsibility and accountability (53:38); right of ownership of the fruits of one’s labor and no free ride for anyone (53:39). Are these Qur’an-guaranteed human rights (to all men and women) to be found in our current practice of Islam anywhere not to say of the holiest place in Islam, the birth place of our Prophet (PBUH)?
Who else could be more responsible then for damaging the sacred heart of Islam in the name of Islam, in the name of the Qur’an, in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) than the twin forces of Muslim dictatorship and Muslim priesthood?
The situation has degenerated to such an extent that if one were to mention that above human rights are some of the most sacred in Islam; that our Prophet (PBUH) lived and implemented these rights in society; that an Islamic society is supposed to be constituted on the basis of these core rights at its heart; then surely it will raise many eyebrows and may even invite sarcasm from certain quarters with comments such as: “Have these human rights anything to do with Muslims and Islam?” These reactions are not out of place considering how Muslim countries have been mistreating and even killing their own people in the name of Islam.
The world is judging Islam by our practice of Islam, by observing the so-called practicing Muslims. No wonder we seem to be fulfilling the prophecy of the Qur’an by showing to the world by our own actions that Islam is a failure, that Islam is false (107:1-7)! Our failure to live up to true Islam is being seen as failure of Islam. We may think we are good practicing Muslims and that we will ultimately have the mercy and the blessings of Allah. All this is fine but what about the Qur’an and its emphasis on universal human rights? Is the Qur’an only for reciting to achieve mercy and forgiveness, mostly for the dead? Or, should its human rights also need to be implemented in human society?
As a matter fact these values are under siege in every Muslim country. Can we expect to get anywhere when Muslim societies trample on these rights while putting extraordinary emphasis on rituals? What would be more important to Islam in the eyes of Allah: performing its rituals or implementing its basic human rights?
The Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that Muslim Ummah is like a body. When any part of the body is in pain the whole body feels it. That body seems to be in critical condition today. The only way to revive it is to go back to the basic Qur’anic values guaranteeing universal human rights and make them the foundation of Muslim society the way our Prophet (PBUH) did more than 1400 years ago when the rest of the world was living in barbarism and chaos as noted by many historians (e.g., J.H. Denison, Emotion as the Basis of Civilization). This is the real miracle of the Qur’an. This is the true Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) to practice (7:157).
July 29, 2007 10:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
There is common ground. It exists in recognizing human rights.
Your assessment of Islam seems unfairly harsh. Many goodhearted and dedicated Muslims are trying to re-emphasis the compassionate Meccan injunctions of the Qur'an. They have not been abrogated by the Medina verses as often thought. In fact, placed in historical context, the Medina verses are from times of war, conflict and betrayal of earlier peace agreements. It is very misleading to take them out of their historical context.
The following is an excerpt of an article by
Dr. Mansoor Alam of Toledo Ohio. He is a university professor at Toledo University and fully dedicates himself to clarifying the importance of Human Rights within Islam. Islam as it was meant to be, not Islam as it currently is practiced. I ask in all fairness that everyone here read this excerpt from one of his articles to fully understand the great positive possibilities of the Qur'an. This man has a vision - a vision that we would all do well to attend to. Do not all of us wish to see Muslims in the West and throughout the world as great contributors to humanity rather than a people against humanity. The Vision of Dr. Mansoor Alam which is completely valid Qur'anically can accomplish this. Please note his Qur'anic references should you have any doubt. You can see for yourself that there in fact IS a
HUMANITARIAN ISLAM.
(excerpt from article by Mansoor Alam Ph.D.)
So what should be done now? Should we simply close our eyes to the Qur’an and allow these latter-day rulers and Imams to regurgitate the same old sectarian-based Shariah that was developed under dictatorial rule and which tramples on the most basic values of the Qur’an dealing with universal human rights, that among these are: sacrosanct right of the sanctity of human life (5:32); inalienable right of the freedom of choice (2:256, 18:29); right of tolerance for other faiths (22:40) and absolutely no compulsion in faith (2:256); right to conduct state affairs by mutual consultation (3:159, 42:38); universal right of human dignity (17:70); sacrosanct right of equal justice for all (4:58, 4:135, 5:42, 16:90) including enemies (5:8) and no bending of justice for anyone (if the Prophet was not above the law (6:15) then how can anyone else be?); right to hold positions based solely on merit (46:19); right of personal responsibility and accountability (53:38); right of ownership of the fruits of one’s labor and no free ride for anyone (53:39). Are these Qur’an-guaranteed human rights (to all men and women) to be found in our current practice of Islam anywhere not to say of the holiest place in Islam, the birth place of our Prophet (PBUH)?
Who else could be more responsible then for damaging the sacred heart of Islam in the name of Islam, in the name of the Qur’an, in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) than the twin forces of Muslim dictatorship and Muslim priesthood?
The situation has degenerated to such an extent that if one were to mention that above human rights are some of the most sacred in Islam; that our Prophet (PBUH) lived and implemented these rights in society; that an Islamic society is supposed to be constituted on the basis of these core rights at its heart; then surely it will raise many eyebrows and may even invite sarcasm from certain quarters with comments such as: “Have these human rights anything to do with Muslims and Islam?” These reactions are not out of place considering how Muslim countries have been mistreating and even killing their own people in the name of Islam.
The world is judging Islam by our practice of Islam, by observing the so-called practicing Muslims. No wonder we seem to be fulfilling the prophecy of the Qur’an by showing to the world by our own actions that Islam is a failure, that Islam is false (107:1-7)! Our failure to live up to true Islam is being seen as failure of Islam. We may think we are good practicing Muslims and that we will ultimately have the mercy and the blessings of Allah. All this is fine but what about the Qur’an and its emphasis on universal human rights? Is the Qur’an only for reciting to achieve mercy and forgiveness, mostly for the dead? Or, should its human rights also need to be implemented in human society?
As a matter fact these values are under siege in every Muslim country. Can we expect to get anywhere when Muslim societies trample on these rights while putting extraordinary emphasis on rituals? What would be more important to Islam in the eyes of Allah: performing its rituals or implementing its basic human rights?
The Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that Muslim Ummah is like a body. When any part of the body is in pain the whole body feels it. That body seems to be in critical condition today. The only way to revive it is to go back to the basic Qur’anic values guaranteeing universal human rights and make them the foundation of Muslim society the way our Prophet (PBUH) did more than 1400 years ago when the rest of the world was living in barbarism and chaos as noted by many historians (e.g., J.H. Denison, Emotion as the Basis of Civilization). This is the real miracle of the Qur’an. This is the true Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) to practice (7:157).
July 27, 2007 11:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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July 27, 2007 5:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
Islam is THE enemy of all right-minded people.
May 15, 2007 2:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
Islam is THE enemy of all right-minded people.
May 15, 2007 1:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Islam always thinks it is right and KILLS those who disagree.....
"""
Pakistan: Christians told 'convert to Islam' or face 'dire consequences'.
Christians in Charsadda, a town in North-West Frontier Province in Pakistan, have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by 17 May, they will face “dire consequences and bomb explosions”.
The threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town’s Christian population, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).
The threat comes as Pakistan’s National Assembly overwhelmingly rejected proposed amendments to the blasphemy laws.
Under the existing blasphemy laws, anyone convicted of blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad faces life imprisonment or the death penalty, according to section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code.
In a statement, APMA said: “Christians and other religious minorities are being roped into false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots … This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and secular-minded people. The blasphemy law needs to be amended, if not altogether repealed, because of its great misuse. The law has created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance … a sense of insecurity and harassment.”
Commenting on the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province, APMA said: “The Christians of Pakistan are already facing victimisation and discrimination. Many innocent Christians are incarcerated and killed. Attacks on churches, Christian schools and other institutions have been experienced by the Christians of Pakistan in the past few years, and now the rise of vigilante groups and threats have aggravated the situation.”
Stuart Windsor, Christian Solidarity Worldwide’s National Director, said: “We are deeply concerned about the rise of extremism in Pakistan, and the threats made to Christians in North-West Frontier Province.
"We urge the Pakistani authorities to do everything possible to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance and freedom and to protect religious minorities who are facing threats and ultimatums. We urge the Government of Pakistan to recognise the gross misuse of the blasphemy laws and the urgent need for their reform, or repeal.”"""
Islam is THE enemy of all right-minded people.
May 15, 2007 1:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The Bavli [Babylonian Talmud] has formed the definitive statement of Judaism from the time of its closure to the present day. The excellence of its composition, the mastery and authority of those who everywhere studied it and advocated its law, the sharpness of its exegesis and discussion, the harmonious and proportional presentation of all details, these virtues of taste and intellect may well have secured for the document is paramount position … The Bavli served from its closure as an encyclopedia of knowledge and as a summa of the theology and law of Judaism.
— Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner
B
ible scholars are aware that Jesus Christ denounced the Pharisees. He said they nullified all the Commandments of God by their Tradition, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:13; Matt. 15:6-9, etc.). His invective, in truth, cannot be equalled. All of Matthew 23 is like a whiplash. He likened Pharisaism to a whited sepulchre, indeed beautiful outwardly, but "inside full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness." Christ climaxed one condemnation after another with the expletive, "Hypocrites!" He called the Pharisees children of them that killed the Prophets. He foretold they would go on killing, crucifying and persecuting until the guilt for all the righteous blood shed from Abel on down would be upon them. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Christ asked.
Christ is as utterly devastating of Pharisaism in the record of John 8. Although He admitted that His hearers were descendants of Abraham, He said they were, spiritually, of the devil. Christ told them:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because the truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44).
The Missing Link
May 14, 2007 2:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
"If some religious people believe they have a monopoly on truth, then are conversation and common ground possible?"
Sure. The conversation would go something like this:
"Our invisible supernatural being is better than yours, and all the dogma we have is better than the dogma that your religion has, and we'll continue to berate and kill each other to prove it."
Madness.
May 12, 2007 2:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Can we find Common Ground? Yes, we can. We can accept each human being as a brother or sister of the human family and a creation of God. To love them dispite the outcome might be our common cause. If one feels he or she has greater truth, we should hear them and consider, not ridicule.
Truth, like spilled diamonds, might be valued all the more if gathered into one jar through the return of the scattered gems. Some may have more, some less but we all hold truth, even if there is some dirt mingled in the mix that should be cleaned out. I may have some of both in my hands.
Tom
May 11, 2007 6:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
we are 1
something is trying to divide us soo that we kill ourselves
May 11, 2007 12:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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April 5, 2007 6:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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April 5, 2007 6:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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April 5, 2007 6:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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February 6, 2007 8:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords:
Regarding Pat Robertson:
How about Ibn Baaz, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia from 1993 until his death in 1999, issuing a fatwa (pronouncement regarding sharia law) declaring: "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment."
People of faith are not immune from doing stupid things.
January 20, 2007 11:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Hi people!
Sorry, this is my test the internet ; moderate: please remove this topic. Sorry for your time.
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this test
January 17, 2007 12:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
http://pillus.info/tr.htm
:)
January 10, 2007 7:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Fresh from CNN:
"Pat Robertson: God told me of 'mass killing' in 2007"
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/02/robertson.predictions.ap/index.html
Robertson is saying:
"The Lord didn't say nuclear. But I do believe it will be something like that."
Then he goes on:
"I have a relatively good track record," he said. "Sometimes I miss."
Whose track record is this, his or God's? How can God miss predictions and He is the One who charted everyone's and everything's destiny? Don't you have ears to hear with? Don't you have eyes to see with? Don't you have brains to think with? Surely, it is not the eyes that go blind, it is the hearts!
That is exactly what I am talking about! If this nonsense happens today in the age of information, imagine what went on after Jesus departed this earth! This is the "new born" christians in action. The holy ghost talks to them freely! This is the same holy ghost that led to the dream of Simon who claimed that he saw a vision in which God told him to preach to the gentiles. This is the same Simon whose own experience led to the writing of the book of acts, which was later taken as part of the word of God!!!!!
How dare anyone sees this sign of God of a born again Simon in the body of Robertson, and yet claims that the bible is ok and the history of christianity has lineage with Jesus!??! The ink indeed has dried and the pens are lifted!
January 3, 2007 1:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The Holy Quran, verses 5:116-120 reads:
"
116. And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wo uldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
119. God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment o f all desires).
120. To God doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
"
Here you have it! An honoured prophet of God keeping his message straight while walking the earth. After he leaves earth, he and his mother were treated like Gods, which is considered blasphemous even with Jesus' standards. There he is questioned by God and at the end still asking God for forgiveness for his people. Whose job is it to bring this truth forward? Who should come forward and defend that holy prophet of God?
Yes, the Quran!
January 2, 2007 11:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords wrote:
"Islam talks very highly of him and his mother. Why should any muslim find it awkward to defend that prophet of God in the context of Islamic views?"
I am not a Christian, and do not profess to have any claims on the "absolute truth". However from my reading of Christ's life, I think he does not need the blessings of Quran to stand tall. He was tall already even before Quran mentioned him.
Defending one's religious views is like defending the color of one's chosen attire. What's good for you is yours, what's good for me I'll defend. In the end, there is a high probability that the two shall agree to disagree.
Apparently there would be no conflict, so long as one does not try to impose its will on the other. Unfortunately, Islam disagrees with this notion as it claims to be the sole custodian of the absolute truth, and as a result Islam has bloody borders.
January 2, 2007 5:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Common ground? Judging from this thread, obviously none and then some :)
Enjoyed the rants and the vents though.
January 1, 2007 9:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Common ground? Judging from this thread, obviously none and then some :)
Enjoyed the rants and the vents though.
January 1, 2007 9:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Conviction and honesty really go hand in hand. Conviction also means the ability to prove your point, without lies or arrogance. One of the things that I like about Jesus is that he taught nothing in secret. He stood with courage in front of his enemies and pointed out the liers and hypocrytes among them. Islam talks very highly of him and his mother. Why should any muslim find it awkward to defend that prophet of God in the context of Islamic views? Muslims really have nothing to hide. Muslims have very special love for prophet Mohamed (PBUH) for all he has done through 23 years prophethood. At a time when muslims starve for knowledge about all prophets of God, our christian brothers continue to live in a dream world that led them astray for 100s of years.
The only thing I do different here is that I make sure I don't bring in lies or to dream up something that looks good in a post.
January 1, 2007 8:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I am amazed. For all who respond with a ferocious hatred toward those with a "monopoly on truth", you are responding with an awful lot of conviction that your responses contain some absolute truth that everyone needs to hear! Seems by your responses that you allow yourself a monopoly on truth, and are comfortable making sure everyone knows it. I think some honesty is required as we all need to look at our responses carefully for what they are...our personal attempts to make truth claims. Since we all do this, can we really be so angry with others who are no less convinced of their beliefs than we are?
January 1, 2007 7:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Regarding the respect of humans and their personal freedom and responsibilities, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) said:
"Consult your heart even when people insist on giving you a multitude of opinions"
He also said:
"If a believer is to chose between competing opinions in a matter, let him/her choses the easiest to apply, as long as it doesn't contradicts with God's laws".
That's what prophets are for. May the peace and the blessings of the almighty God be on all His prophets, Ibraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed. May God reward ALL the prophets for the work and sacrifice they done for all humanity. May God guides those who strayed from the straight path. Amen!
January 1, 2007 3:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords wrote:
"That's because Islam have no religious hierarchy like churches and no priesthood either. Commands come from God, not humans."
There is. Either you don't know or are combing for claps. Islam governs every aspect of a Muslim's life - how s/he is to use the hands and for what purpose, how to mate, whom to marry, what to eat, how much long the beard has to be, how to dress and whom to kill. This, to me, pretty much sets the box. Because you are inside Islam and have faith (or blinders), you are just clueless.
December 31, 2006 11:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
well for a newbie you handle yourself with aplomb-
it can get a little brutal sometimes- scroll back and see what preceded your timely entrance here-
a salaamu alaikum
December 31, 2006 12:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
VICTORIA:
I know what you mean but I am not sure either which chapter these ayas are in. I can do a quick serach and see what I can come up with.
Believe it or not, but I am really new to this board discussions stuff. I am amazed at the amount of misinformation being shared here. I think I will train myself a bit on one or two boards and then see if I will have the stomach to read some of the stuff on the athiest board discussions. Peace.
December 30, 2006 8:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
simplewords-do you happen to know the ayat about not blindly following the ways of your father or something like that?
ive tried to find it but havnet been able to
also i wish youd check out the athiest question there are some really reasonable people there and im not always up to it philisophically but youre very well spoken and i think you be appreciated peace
December 30, 2006 8:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
"Well, why do Muslims prefer to stay inside the box that the mullahs and mosque has put them in?"
Hmmm! Never thought about that! Oh yes, I know why. That's because Islam have no religious hierarchy like churches and no priesthood either. Commands come from God, not humans. There is no box to begin with. How many other religions give you the freedom to read others scriptures? No box here either. Humans these days go a certain church denomination and ask for custom built box, with personally-tuned teachings, and a chance to pick the "word of God" that suits their life style!
How can anyone be so heart-blind to not see what's going on here???
December 30, 2006 8:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords wrote:
"I don't need to judge you or you judge me anymore."
Thanks. Your response was anticipated. However we (self-conefessed kafirs) shall continue to oppose and pose challenge to the existing Islamic theory of paradise, earth and life, simply because in the West these theories/hypothesis have no place.
And you wrote to someone:
"So you prefer to stay inside the box that the church put you in."
Well, why do Muslims prefer to stay inside the box that the mullahs and mosque has put them in ?
December 30, 2006 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Someone wrote:
"Islam has nothing to offer me. Muhammad came along 600 years after Jesus and contradicts the Word of God. He showed himself to be a false prophet."
So you prefer to stay inside the box that the church put you in. I think you are a good candidate for evanglism. Triple brainwashed and able to repeat the same sentence over and over again in your posts makes you an excellent candidate for such a position! By the way, which church denomination do you belong to so I understand which "version of the word of God" you believe in? Just curious!
December 30, 2006 4:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Deb Chatterjee wrote:
"I'll choose to remain a condemned kafir for that would allow me to constantly question the validity of the message of the Quran and other religions and traditions."
That's one "hell" of a choice! Have it your way! I don't need to judge you or you judge me anymore. I carried the message to you (nothing else I could do) and you made a choice. This is the end of our discussions. Thanks!
December 30, 2006 4:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Simplewords:
I have watched a few Ahmed Deedat videos earlier on youtube. They're full of crap, p